backhand short serve: is "push" legal?

[bigredlemon]

I've been trying out different methods of executing the backhand serve.

#1: the hand stays mostly in the same location; the wrist bends to cause the racquet tap the bird.

#2: the wrist stays mostly in the same position; the hand moves towards the net causing the racquet to push the bird forward.

#3: an equal combination of twist and push.

I've noticed that i get the most consistency with #2, but wasn't sure if that serve is legal since it's mostly a "push." I know carrying the bird is not legal, but wasn't sure if that constituted carrying the bird.

If #2 is legal, that would be great for me because I find it hard to serve well using #1 if i'm changing racquets. #2 using the same motion so the characteristics of the racquet are not important so it's easier to maintain consistency between racquets.

For my 'push' serve (#2), my wrist twist about 30 degrees and my hand moves forward by one feet. For serve #1, i twist my wrist about 50 degrees and move my hand about one inch.

Btw, how do you perform the short serve backhand?

[Cheung]

a) legal
b) I use mostly arm movement as well
c) I found the same advantages as you did (for myself)
d) Another advantage is that by additionally using the fingers and thumb just before striking the shuttle, it is possible to develop a pretty disguised flick serve.

[Californian]

#2 is certainly legal as long as all the basic rules of service are followed. It's the way I've always done it, and I can't think of anyone I've seen who uses a total wrist shot on the BH serve. Keeping the wrist slightly cocked gives the server the option of using the flick or drive serve.

[bigredlemon]

Originally posted by Californian
#2 is certainly legal as long as all the basic rules of service are followed. It's the way I've always done it, and I can't think of anyone I've seen who uses a total wrist shot on the BH serve.
I've been watching some of the videos swijay has kindly provided, and most of the players in them do not move the physical location of their hand in their serve. Rather, they rely only on their wrist flick for power.

I hardly see anyone actually "pushing" the bird with the racquet... as in the racquet stays mostly parallel to the server's body.

[Californian]

Interesting. Well, that takes more practice to master. Obviously, they must feel it gives them an advantage the other techniques do not. The only problem I see with a push serve is that it can give the receiver a chance to anticipate better, so you can't get predictable with it.

Control, reliability, and the ability to be versatile are still the most important elements. Whatever way that is best achieved is the way to go.

I take back what I said earlier about never seeing anyone serve that way. There was an older gentleman I played against and with many times who did serve backhand with pure wrist. His serves were good, but not exceptional.

[Loh]

Without quite realising it, I somehow ended up with the "push" backhand service which one of my better Sunday group players highlighted and termed as "illegal". I have tried to analyse my service to find out why he has identified it as such. If I had struck the bird on both the feathers and cork simultaneously, then I agree that it is a fault service. But I did not as I hit the cork only. Sometimes, I do "cock" my wrist more that usual when I do a flick serve to surprise my opponent. But most times, I move my arm mainly as described by Cheung.

Why do you think my friend still insists it is a fault service? I never really asked him.
Can you think of any past or present world class doubles players doing likewise? This will help me quash the accusation of my unconvincing friend.

[Neil Nicholls]

In MD and XD my low and flick serves are all backhand. Occasional forehand high serves against weaker opponents (or stronger ones in less competitive games)
I used to use a push for my backhand serve, but it has turned into a tap for both low and flick serve.
I think I'm going to change my backhand serve back to a push.

In MS I used to always do a high serve, but now i've started to mix in low forehand serves, and for those I use a push with the wrist cocked to allow for a flick if required. My forehand low serve isn't tight enough to use in doubles yet.

[swijaya0101]

#1 is the best method. You can flick the serve, aim to the corner ...

#2-3 will surely kill your chance to get point (if your opponent are good players), because they would be able to detect what u r going to do with the shuttles.

[jamesd20]

on the low serve i dont use any hand movement but use the whole arm to guide the shuttle over,this slight brushing of the shuttle seems to be able to make it quite tight, although it is quite slow. when on the flick serve you use the same motion but flick the wrist and it is at the back. I think at my level this creates disguise as i use the sqame movement. people who use only wrist tend to take larger backswing so you can read the serve easier, unless your a pro and and the strenghth/timing to flick to front/back at will.

[Californian]

Originally posted by Loh
Without quite realising it, I somehow ended up with the "push" backhand service which one of my better Sunday group players highlighted and termed as "illegal". I have tried to analyse my service to find out why he has identified it as such. If I had struck the bird on both the feathers and cork simultaneously, then I agree that it is a fault service. But I did not as I hit the cork only. Sometimes, I do "cock" my wrist more that usual when I do a flick serve to surprise my opponent. But most times, I move my arm mainly as described by Cheung.

Why do you think my friend still insists it is a fault service? I never really asked him.
Can you think of any past or present world class doubles players doing likewise? This will help me quash the accusation of my unconvincing friend.

Either you bring the racquet up too high, or you draw it back once you've started the forward motion is all I can think of.

To call it illegal without pointing out why is of no use.

[Loh]

Originally posted by Californian
Either you bring the racquet up too high, or you draw it back once you've started the forward motion is all I can think of.

To call it illegal without pointing out why is of no use.

I quite agree with you. I did neither of the above as mentioned by you. As I said, I thought he might have classified it as a "slung" shot.

I will "confront" him for an explanation the next time.

[Cheung]

Originally posted by swijaya0101
#1 is the best method. You can flick the serve, aim to the corner ...

#2-3 will surely kill your chance to get point (if your opponent are good players), because they would be able to detect what u r going to do with the shuttles.

I just been looking at some videos as well. This is quite a difficult motion to pick up due to poor camera angles, distance of camera lens and small motion of the arm, hands and fingers to produce a serve.

Tony Gunawan definately turns his wrist during the action. Chandra has a much less obvious 'wrist' movement and seems to pushes more.

When some people mention wrist action more, I am not sure at which part of the stroke. The follow through after striking the shuttle definately entails adjustment of the wrist. Does this mean that wrist movement predominates at the point of striking the shuttle? This is far harder to discern.

swijaya makes the point of the shuttle path being more obvious with more arm movement. However, if the quality of the serve is good enough, shouldn't that make it harder to attack? And then if you can mix in a little finger movement to produce a flick of the shuttle, wouldn't that be quite a disguise as well causing the receiver to hestitate?

[Californian]

Originally posted by Cheung

swijaya makes the point of the shuttle path being more obvious with more arm movement. However, if the quality of the serve is good enough, shouldn't that make it harder to attack? And then if you can mix in a little finger movement to produce a flick of the shuttle, wouldn't that be quite a disguise as well causing the receiver to hestitate?

That's the way I feel about it. As soon as you think the opponent is keying in on your arm motion, you can turn the racquet head just before striking the shuttle to direct it to a different area, or flick a drive serve. You can actually use the arm motion to lure the opponent into thinking he or she can tell what's coming. That's when you make the change.

I notice this kind of thing on underhand shots during the rally. Some players extend the arm and hold until the last moment and use only the wrist to direct the shot. Others take a forward arm swing, but keep the wrist cocked back, ready to apply quick wrist action to direct the shuttle if they choose to (or they may simply keep the wrist back and use the arm motion to direct the shot--but the potential for split-second action is always there). It doesn't seem to me that it matters which way is used--it's personal preferance.

[bigredlemon]

Originally posted by swijaya0101
#1 is the best method. You can flick the serve, aim to the corner ...

#2-3 will surely kill your chance to get point (if your opponent are good players), because they would be able to detect what u r going to do with the shuttles. Not nessessarily... if I'm going to flick it then obviously i'm not going to use the push method. They still have to be ready for either stroke at the start of the serve. Once the serve is started, it's pretty easy to tell whether it's going to be short or long so I don't think the push will be much of a hinderance on deception at all. I've been watching some of the tournament footage you provided (thx! :D) and haven't noticed many players starting with a short serve with a slow stroke and then changing it to a flick mid-stroke. (I do remember this being done a few times, but not very often, and often with poor results anyway, such as it going out or was easily smashed back.) Maybe it would make more difference with less skilled opponents, but for me, the gain is greater than the loss.

[bigredlemon]

I thought that the pros only used wrist motion and did not push at all... but after comparing freeze-frames, i've found that most players DO use some push motion, although not much.

Here's the motion sequence for Sigit. Each frame is spaced exactly 0.04 seconds apart. The blue bulb denote the axis of rotation (his hand) while the blue line represent the rotational axis (shaft of the raquet.) The white line denote the force vector (direction of force applied.)

[bigredlemon]

Here it is again with the motion follow-through. While watching the serve, his wrist seems stationary, but watching it with vectors, we see even he pushes his hand forward (by about 6 inches.) In fact, nearly a third of the forward motion comes from his hand.

[bigredlemon]

Here's a strip of Tony Gunawan's serve. You can clearly see that he heavily relies upon a push for forward momentum. (well, you would have clearly seen it had kwun allowed image heights greater than 640 or allowed image hotlinking.):p

Each frame is for exactly 0.02 seconds. (Twice as many frames as the previous one)

[bigredlemon]

here's the freeze-frame follow through of Tony Gunawan. You can see that the forward "push" makes up nearly half of the distance of the arc, and nearly 2/3 of the distance from the start of the serve to the point of impact of the shuttle in frame 5.

[bigredlemon]

Here is Chandra's serve. It seems that he doesn't push at all... or pushes the least of the three. Any hand movement seems to merely accomodate the movement of the wrist rather than to add power to the serve.

Forgot to mention, I only looked at short serves for all three players.

[Matt Ross]

Great pictures, those should be in the FAQ or Articles thread Kwun / Cheung / Mag

[Cheung]

Originally posted by bigredlemon
I thought that the pros only used wrist motion and did not push at all... but after comparing freeze-frames, i've found that most players DO use some push motion, although not much. So the original question is quite difficult to answer. How do we actually define 'mostly' push or 'mostly' wrist? Even the pictures BRL put up show a follow through. Can that be counted as part of the force imparted to the shuttle?

And again, if one were to use just the 'wrist', there is only a limited amount freedom on the joint. More movement can be obtain with rotation of the forearm along its axis and use of the fingers.

Before getting too carried away with details, I'd just like to add that IMHO, a good quality serve and preparation for the next shot is more important than wether a serve use more 'wrist' or push. A good quality serve sets course of the point...;)

[Loh]

BRL

Fantastic pics! Many thanks for taking so much trouble and time to analyse the serves of three of the most impressive men's doubles players of today. Should this not be classified as 'bio-mechanics" - again, an area of interest to you I suppose.

Perhap Joanne can also see clearly that the left leg of these RH players is placed behind to convince her that this backhand serve stance is generally employed by many international players. Granted that we can't see the legs of Sigit. Btw, Sigit' serve seems to be very shallow i.e. his service "arc" is rather short. Does this mean that he uses more fingers/wrist when striking the shuttle?

I can see that one distinct advantage of the backhand serve is that at the end of the serve, one's racket is naturally pointed upwards, away from the body and ready for the opponent's return shot at the net. The forehand serve, on the other hand ends across one's body most times and may not be as efficient as the backhand for quick counters at the net. However, the forehand high serve affords some time for the server to prepare himself for the opponent's return.

[kwun]

excellent pics BRL and interesting point Loh. another observation i have is that with the racketfoot forward backhand service, the racket foot is in front after the service, that is a neutral position that allows the server to take a return on both left and right side, be it a drive or a push or netdrop. and it is also fast to do a chasse to kill off a bad net return.

for a forehand service, the racketfoot is usually at the back and will be slower moving to the backhand side and toward the net, and disadvantage at the drive counter return.

[Cheung]

Loh

refer to this thread (http://badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7539&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) and the post I wrote on the 30 Oct 2002. The point you made and Kwun's footwork point is stated there.

Agree with your point on the very high f/hand serve .

[bigredlemon]

Originally posted by Cheung
Loh

refer to this thread (http://badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7539&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) and the post I wrote on the 30 Oct 2002. The point you made and Kwun's footwork point is stated there.

Agree with your point on the very high f/hand serve . Happy to post the pics :). After looking over the thread you just posted (by myself oddly) I just remembered something... different players use a different trajectory in their backhand serve.

For some players, the cork is pointed towards the server/racquet at the start of service, and flips over mid-flight about when it flies over the net. The cork points straight upwards about 2 feet before reaching the net. This forces the server to serve higher over the net or else it won't land past the line, since the bird will be slightly forced by its angular momentum to point down and dive. This arc is the most curved, and unsymmetrical.

I've also seen a variation in which the court flips from down to back up though I haven't seen any international players do it during a tournament. It's arc is the most flat. (It's actually two arcs.)

Some players also serve with the cork pointed down, and thus it's like the first serve but the effect is much smaller. This is a curved arc but less curved than the first one, and much more symmetrical.

I've tried doing all three many times and found that I get the best arc with the cork pointed down, but there's a large risk of the bird's head wobbling up and down during flight and falling short. Presumably I hit the skirt. The first serve is easier to attack but it's also easier to execute.

Do you guys and gals think bird/cork positioning matters? If so how do serve?

[Winex West Can]

I have seen many players who serves holding the shuttle horizontally. Don't know if they have the cork part pointing inwards.

One thing to remember is that on service, the first point of contact with the shuttle should be the cork part. Contacting the feathers (skirt) first is deemed a fault.

Law 9.1.4 the server's racket shall initially hit the base of the shuttle.

[ryeung]

Originally posted by bigredlemon
I've tried doing all three many times and found that I get the best arc with the cork pointed down, but there's a large risk of the bird's head wobbling up and down during flight and falling short. Presumably I hit the skirt. The first serve is easier to attack but it's also easier to execute.

Do you guys and gals think bird/cork positioning matters? If so how do serve?

Excellent analysis. Never thought about how I serve but I used to serve with the bird pointing more downwards. Now I serve with the bird pointing at the racket. I notice that the bird flies a little farther and flick serves are a bit better. However I mostly use an arm motion to serve and add a wrist flick for a flick serve.

[viver]

Originally posted by Winex West Can
I have seen many players who serves holding the shuttle horizontally. Don't know if they have the cork part pointing inwards.

One thing to remember is that on service, the first point of contact with the shuttle should be the cork part. Contacting the feathers (skirt) first is deemed a fault.

Law 9.1.4 the server's racket shall initially hit the base of the shuttle.

Yes, cork must be first contact to prevent server delivering a spinning serve. In an umpiring seminar which I attended a few years ago, an international umpire mentioned that they 'allowed' players position the shuttle sideways as long as the bird does not spin.

[Cheung]

BRL, I think you are working on the same lines that I did many years ago with the serve:D. As you have found, different positioning of the shuttle can produce different trajectory for service.

Here's a tip for you:

try striking the shuttle with different angle racquet face. ie / or \ or |

also try these out with different path of the racquet ie. mostly horizontal direction on hitting shuttle, or more upward path

The results are very interesting and you can make your choice which serve suits you best.

[Neil Nicholls]

I hold the shuttle horizontally for backhand service, with the cork pointing slightly towards the racquet.
If you hold the feathers and let the cork hang downwards, after serving, the shuttle wobbles up and down until the air resistance dampens the wobble.
If you hold it horizontally, it wobbles left to right.
With an up and down wobble you have to aim that bit higher over the net because you don't know if a wobble is going to catch the net.

The wobble is more noticeable with plastic than feathers.
Plastics tend to be shorter than feathers, so the damping from air resistance is slower to react (angular momentum and distance of action from centre of mass and all that). And possibly a plastic skirt provides less air resistance than feathers, lading to reduced damping again.

[soami]

Friend Read the rules.if u arent breaking any of them hen its legal.Besids I think Bao uses the push serve too

[Tony2504]

I do not think that its is a service fault because the service rules do not prevent it in any way. However, I think that movement of the hand holding the shuttle should be made a fault. I come across players who move the shuttle hand sideways at the last moment after they have started the forward movement of the racket. It prevents any prediction of the trajectory and likely path of the shuttle so the serve cannot be attacked not by any skill and has the same effect as a dummied serve. Most unfair.