CRRACK!!! Major OUCH!

[Joanne]

Sometimes when I'm playing badminton my left leg, around the knees will just kinda twist with a crrack... I think it's kinda of a minor dislocation that goes back in place immediately... happens alot. Sometimes it's so bad I'll just get off the court and sit down and massage my leg.

Any idea how to prevent it?

[AKFT]

You may have a tear in the cartilage. Does you knee ever lock-up?

[LazyBuddy]

U might need some proper warm up or drills before intensive games.

However, if such cases happen on a very often basis, u should go to see a doctor. U r still young, and better get the problemed taken care off earlier.

[ronk]

Check with a doctor asap in order to avoid having a permanent injury. You may even want to get an x-ray or mri taken to determine whether there is any injury. Knees are tricky things and go quite easily. You may have to stop playing badminton for a few weeks/months to let the knee heal :( . You definitely do not want to risk any permanent injury or your badminton career will be over before it has started. You may also have a bad technique where you lunge for the shuttlecork too much and thereby injuring the knee. Players with a smooth gliding style generally get less injury. Also, check your footware and soles. Worn out footware can result in injuries

Ron

[cooler]

are u sure it made a 'CRRACK' sound? sound serious:(

[wilfredlgf]

I have similar problems sometimes but as LazyBuddy had said, maybe you didn't warm up properly. I only hear those kind of CRAACK only when I don't bother to warm up.

Would a knee-guard help in this?

[Joanne]

No, my knee doesn't lock up.

I DO warm up, and it doesn't happen during intensive games... just when I'm playing with friends. Not too often... well just lately about 6 times that is. Maybe that's often? But it's not really painful after that. After that I can continue playing... sometimes don't need to go offcourt at all.

It doesn't happen when I lunge for the shuttle, it happens when I do backhand (you know, turn your legs around... if you get what I mean). My shoes are brand new. :)

Yes it makes a sound. But not too loud of course.

Kneeguard... who knows? But I don't think I'll wear that... people will seriously think I'm injured. ;)

As for all the doctor part, I'll see if it happens again... I'll make sure I warm up more. :)

Thanks for your replies! :)

[Yodums]

Are you talking about the start of a game, your first few games, or when you're pretty heavily warmed up? I wouldn't worry about it so much if it is just your first game and you're rallying. For me, the first few hits will result in some cracking sounds in my elbow or shoulder, but after that, it's nothing.

But yeh, if I do properly stretch it, it doesn't make that crack. Make sure you're doing the appropriate stretch for your knee itself. So you're not focusing on your quads, or calves etc.

[Joanne]

Originally posted by Yodums
Are you talking about the start of a game, your first few games, or when you're pretty heavily warmed up? I wouldn't worry about it so much if it is just your first game and you're rallying. For me, the first few hits will result in some cracking sounds in my elbow or shoulder, but after that, it's nothing.

But yeh, if I do properly stretch it, it doesn't make that crack. Make sure you're doing the appropriate stretch for your knee itself. So you're not focusing on your quads, or calves etc.

The last time that happpened I had been playing for 2 hours.

I always warm up my legs as I feel its the most important part to warm up.

[wilfredlgf]

Originally posted by Joanne

Kneeguard... who knows? But I don't think I'll wear that... people will seriously think I'm injured. ;)


The better to fool your opponents, no? ;)

[wood_22_chuck]

It's "crafty, old players" remember?

[Chia]

Originally posted by Joanne

Kneeguard... who knows? But I don't think I'll wear that... people will seriously think I'm injured. ;)



If i where u i would seriously think about wearing a kneeguard. I wouldn't care what others think of you, its your health that is in jeopardy. A kneeguard would hold the knee in place so it probably won't pop out. Maybe that can do the trick for ya, and its not that expensive either.

[|R|S]

i know what you mean.. me and a friend of mine use to have it last time, but for us, it is the right knee, coz we are right handed...

the thing to do here is to strengthen you knee... there is a lot of ways to do this but the most convenient one is to make a 90 degree angle with your back on the wall... something like sitting on an imaginary chair.

you will feel the strain on your thigh... and this will strengthen your knee... do this frequently... at the beginning i was only able to take 20sec, now i can maintain the position for ard 87sec!

[Chia]

Hey we do that at basketball practise... thats a really good excercise

[Joanne]

Originally posted by |R|S
i know what you mean.. me and a friend of mine use to have it last time, but for us, it is the right knee, coz we are right handed...

the thing to do here is to strengthen you knee... there is a lot of ways to do this but the most convenient one is to make a 90 degree angle with your back on the wall... something like sitting on an imaginary chair.

you will feel the strain on your thigh... and this will strengthen your knee... do this frequently... at the beginning i was only able to take 20sec, now i can maintain the position for ard 87sec!

I already do that at training... but we don't lean on the wall. I haven't actually timed myself but I can do it for about... 25 secs. I think. ;)

I strenghten my arm by supporting my body with my elbow and feet... no idea how to explain it. That I time... but somehow never tried timing the "toilet bowl" way. :p

I'll think about the knee guard...

[yonexfanatic]

Yes, the knee guard is a very good suggestion. My friend's been playing for a long time and he has very bad knees and now has to wear knee braces on both legs. In my opinion, the knee guard doesn't look that "silly"..i've actually seen many people wear knee guards. Joanne, if you're feeling pain in ur knees and it's keeps occuring, it would be a good idea to see a doctor, but in the meantime, wearing a knee brace wouldn't hurt.

The knee brace does get very warm though when playing with it a long time. I guess this can be an advantage and a disadvantage. Advantage being it'll warm up your legs very fast. Unfortunately if you're not used to it, it'll get too hot for your liking..this being the disadvantage. Overall, it'll help support the knees.

[Joanne]

Originally posted by yonexfanatic
Yes, the knee guard is a very good suggestion. My friend's been playing for a long time and he has very bad knees and now has to wear knee braces on both legs. In my opinion, the knee guard doesn't look that "silly"..i've actually seen many people wear knee guards. Joanne, if you're feeling pain in ur knees and it's keeps occuring, it would be a good idea to see a doctor, but in the meantime, wearing a knee brace wouldn't hurt.

The knee brace does get very warm though when playing with it a long time. I guess this can be an advantage and a disadvantage. Advantage being it'll warm up your legs very fast. Unfortunately if you're not used to it, it'll get too hot for your liking..this being the disadvantage. Overall, it'll help support the knees.

Like I said... I'll play for a bit more then see how my leg is. If I need it I'll wear it. :) Gotta warm up extra. ;)

[ArchDevil145]

Originally posted by |R|S
i know what you mean.. me and a friend of mine use to have it last time, but for us, it is the right knee, coz we are right handed...

the thing to do here is to strengthen you knee... there is a lot of ways to do this but the most convenient one is to make a 90 degree angle with your back on the wall... something like sitting on an imaginary chair.

you will feel the strain on your thigh... and this will strengthen your knee... do this frequently... at the beginning i was only able to take 20sec, now i can maintain the position for ard 87sec!

Hey, good exercise. Gotta try that. But wouldn't you get a lot of muscle pain from your thighs after doing that?

[armortec user]

Can I just say that wearing a knee-guard will offer no support whatever, except psychological? It's extremely foolish not to seek medical advice when it's available. If there is any laxity around the patella, it will make your knee extremely susceptible to dislocation. This is particularly the case in badminton where there is a lot of twisting and lunging involved. Having dislocated your knee, you can count on arthiritis and a certain degree of immobility depending on how severe the dislocation. You will certainly never regain the strength & mobility your knee previously had, and there will be a fair chance of the knee dislocating again in less severe conditions. So, take care of your bones if you wanna be a record-breaker...

[yonexfanatic]

Originally posted by armortec user
Can I just say that wearing a knee-guard will offer no support whatever, except psychological?... ...

unfortunately, that's where you are wrong. yes, i can agree that you should go see a doctor immediately before the problem gets worse. However, the knee brace will give the knee some support, depending what sort of knee brace you are using as there are many kinds. Like i mentioned before, my friend has very bad knees and has disloacted both of them..he continues to play badminton after they have healed well enough (like you mentioned, they will never be 100%)..but if my friend does not wear the knee brace, he will surely dislocate them and damage them again right when he starts playing a competitive match. So there obviously is some support..

[armortec user]

hmm...In the UK the only knee support I have seen which is suitable for playing badminton is a tubi-grip, and there is a consensus that these offer no real support. If by knee-guard, you mean one of these (see the attached pic.), then I doubt it would be worth playing badminton as they are extremely restrictive.

[Joanne]

Well... today it wasn't much of a problem... we did plenty of leg exercise anyway... my knees didn't give any problem... I think. Anyway, haven't seen such a knee brace around... I'll be looking for it anyway. ;)

[coupii]

Joanne, I've heard that female basketball players are particularly susceptible to ACL tears. While I haven't heard of anyone proving why female players are more susceptible than male players, it's thought it might have something to do with their anatomy. I believe this can be prevalent among younger girls. When I was in junior high and high school I saw several girls from the basketball teams walking around on crutches and big braces on their knees. You might want to look into exercises which are specifically designed to strengthen this area. Whether this is the problem or not, it might not be a bad idea to start working on strengthening your knees anyways.

As for the knee braces, I get intimidated by players wearing big knee braces, because then I know they are serious players! :) hehehe

[Joanne]

Originally posted by coupii
Joanne, I've heard that female basketball players are particularly susceptible to ACL tears. While I haven't heard of anyone proving why female players are more susceptible than male players, it's thought it might have something to do with their anatomy. I believe this can be prevalent among younger girls. When I was in junior high and high school I saw several girls from the basketball teams walking around on crutches and big braces on their knees. You might want to look into exercises which are specifically designed to strengthen this area. Whether this is the problem or not, it might not be a bad idea to start working on strengthening your knees anyways.

As for the knee braces, I get intimidated by players wearing big knee braces, because then I know they are serious players! :) hehehe

Lol. Intimidated by players wearing knee braces? Hmmm.... thanks for that idea. ;)

Yep, thinking of the exercises...

[viver]

Originally posted by Joanne
Lol. Intimidated by players wearing knee braces? Hmmm.... thanks for that idea. ;)

Yep, thinking of the exercises...

How old are you? If I remember correctly you should be about 12/13 years old??

[Joanne]

Originally posted by viver
How old are you? If I remember correctly you should be about 12/13 years old??

Yep... I'm 12 this year. Why the 2 ??

[Neil Nicholls]

One of my friends has a dodgy knee from his football days. He always plays badminton wearing a knee support. It is a kind that has some sort of metal hinge down the sides to reduce movement in the wrong directions

I couldn't find a UK website but here's a link to a similar American product
http://www.kneepaincentral.com/Knee_Pain_Products/Hinged_Knee_Support.htm

[Joanne]

Originally posted by Neil Nicholls
One of my friends has a dodgy knee from his football days. He always plays badminton wearing a knee support. It is a kind that has some sort of metal hinge down the sides to reduce movement in the wrong directions

I couldn't find a UK website but here's a link to a similar American product
http://www.kneepaincentral.com/Knee_Pain_Products/Hinged_Knee_Support.htm

Wow... I liked that knee brace but I didn't like the price at all! ;)

Okay... this is really scaring me now. Movements in the wrong directions? THAT SERIOUS?

[Neil Nicholls]

I expect they can be found cheaper elsewhere.

But if you are really worried about your knee you should see a doctor. If he/she says you should wear a knee brace/support then I would get the best you can. Your body is more important.

Or reduce badminton and replace some of it with strengthening exercise.

It does seem strange that it only happens after you've been playing quite a while.
Could it be that you are starting to get fatigued and your footwork is breaking down so you are doing more twisting than when you are fresh?
Just a guess.

[AKFT]

My best advice is: go to see an orthopedic surgeon who specializes in knees. You have to find out what the problem is before you can remedy it. A bunch of non-medical people trying to diagnose and treat over the internet is not going to help solve your mystery illness.

[Cheung]

The medical system in M'sia comprises of General practitioners and specialists.

In this case, I doubt seeing a general practitioner (cheaper fee) will help. My suggestion is the same as AKFT. Another possibilty is to find a physiotherapist - one that specialises in sports. If it is painful, I would suspect a meniscal injury (cartilage problem).

My knees crack as well. Have done for a long time especially after sitting in the same position for a long time and then stretching. Never when playing games.

[Joanne]

Originally posted by Neil Nicholls

Or reduce badminton and replace some of it with strengthening exercise.

It does seem strange that it only happens after you've been playing quite a while.
Could it be that you are starting to get fatigued and your footwork is breaking down so you are doing more twisting than when you are fresh?
Just a guess.

Don't need to reduce badminton... I only play it once a week! Sometimes twice... so it's definitely not too much badminton. ;) I'm doing some strengthening exercise for my knees now... can do 40 seconds. :)

Maybe I DO do extra twisting when I'm tired. Who knows?

First of all I have to find the dictionary to know what cartilage is! :D Anyway, I've been more careful now when playing, trying to not twist too much... now I have another problem that doesn't really affect badminton but still does a bit.

My right thumb just seems to have some kind of nerve problem... some moments will just tremble non-stop... kinda scary actually. When it happened last year I didn't really care much... then lately its been happening a lot. Then when you put your finger around it it'll feel like my heart beat is in my thumb. :o But I don't think it's anything serious... I HOPE.

[cooler]

i think it's just muscle spasm from over using the thumb.
Your thumb is in a transition of being stronger.
let it rest and it should be fine after that.

[Joanne]

But it doesn't happen when my thumb is being used. Sometimes when I'm reading a book it'll just start...

[jwu]

agree with cooler about the thumb thing, it's just spasm from your active movements. something to do with adrenaline too.

about that knee, I have friends that play volleyball and have the same problem when they land after hits. But for them, it's because they have some natural defect with their knees. one has one leg longer than another and another guy just has a weird knee connection. they both dealt with it with knee guards so I guess that will be a good way to go.

[wilfredlgf]

Anybody notice that most threads started by Joanne are often more than 1-page long? :p

Anyway, I think intensity does have a bearing on your knees. I wear a knee-guard nowadays as in badminton we do plenty of moves that need knee action.

Funny though, the soreness for me seems to come more from the left knee than the right (I am right handed) when most people here speak of the racket leg instead. I wonder why is that? Any comments for me? It began ever since I started applying 'scissor-kick' to my jump smashes - resulting in landing on my left foot. Any suggestions on landing in relations to knee health?

With kneeguards, I feel so much more 'secure' as I know I get support from the transfer of force from the soles of the feet to the knee. The other thing I can say is that I felt less impact on the entire leg with the kneeguard in place, making my stance more stable.

[Joanne]

Originally posted by jwu

about that knee, I have friends that play volleyball and have the same problem when they land after hits. But for them, it's because they have some natural defect with their knees. one has one leg longer than another and another guy just has a weird knee connection. they both dealt with it with knee guards so I guess that will be a good way to go.

Natural defect? Uh-oh... Okay. I'll try and measure my legs afterward. Weird knee connection? What does that mean?

[Joanne]

Originally posted by wilfredlgf
Anybody notice that most threads started by Joanne are often more than 1-page long? :p

Anyway, I think intensity does have a bearing on your knees. I wear a knee-guard nowadays as in badminton we do plenty of moves that need knee action.

Funny though, the soreness for me seems to come more from the left knee than the right (I am right handed) when most people here speak of the racket leg instead. I wonder why is that? Any comments for me? It began ever since I started applying 'scissor-kick' to my jump smashes - resulting in landing on my left foot. Any suggestions on landing in relations to knee health?

With kneeguards, I feel so much more 'secure' as I know I get support from the transfer of force from the soles of the feet to the knee. The other thing I can say is that I felt less impact on the entire leg with the kneeguard in place, making my stance more stable.

Lol. I DID NOT notice that. Surely there are other threads with 1+ pages too.

And this is my left leg too, and I'm a right handed.

Aren't knee guards just a piece of hard cloth? Or something like that? How come it's so good? Oh yeah, I know it's probably more then that, just don't know how it works.

[Cheung]

Originally posted by wilfredlgf
Funny though, the soreness for me seems to come more from the left knee than the right (I am right handed) when most people here speak of the racket leg instead. I wonder why is that? Any comments for me? It began ever since I started applying 'scissor-kick' to my jump smashes - resulting in landing on my left foot. Any suggestions on landing in relations to knee health?
suggested reasons(in random order):
a) lose weight
b) left knee may not be used to the new movement and needs readjustment
c) landing of the left foot after scissor kick may be incorrect.
d) not turning hips properly.

;)

[jwu]

Originally posted by Joanne
Natural defect? Uh-oh... Okay. I'll try and measure my legs afterward. Weird knee connection? What does that mean?

weird knee connection as in the tibia of my friend's leg (one of the lower leg bone) doesn't connect correctly to the knee, it's slightly off where it suppose to be.

I mention the two instance because I think both of my friends have more severe problems than what you have. :D Just be careful with it and I think you've been doing that after reading some of the threads above.

[Joanne]

Originally posted by jwu
weird knee connection as in the tibia of my friend's leg (one of the lower leg bone) doesn't connect correctly to the knee, it's slightly off where it suppose to be.

I mention the two instance because I think both of my friends have more severe problems than what you have. :D Just be careful with it and I think you've been doing that after reading some of the threads above.


Lol. I see.

Cheung, how does losing weight help to avoid the soreness? Just wondering. :)

[cooler]

Anybody notice that most threads started by Joanne are often more than 1-page long?

coz kids ask the darnest questions:p

Regarding your thumb trembles, it goes away when used because the major nerve pulse override the weak pulse that was causing the trembling. For now, don't worry about it, i sometime get some too on my index finger after doing some hard labors.

[wilfredlgf]

Originally posted by Joanne
Aren't knee guards just a piece of hard cloth? Or something like that? How come it's so good? Oh yeah, I know it's probably more then that, just don't know how it works.

That's what I thought initially but the thing is actually quite flexible. You will feel some tightness there but you're knee can actually bend pretty well.

[wilfredlgf]

Originally posted by Joanne
Lol. I see.

Cheung, how does losing weight help to avoid the soreness? Just wondering. :)

Pressure on a surface, P = Force, F / Area, A

In badminton (esp in jumping):

F = the force in which your body exert when it falls
If you are 45 kgs, the simple (Read : Simple) calculation of the force your body exerts downwards = 45kg x 9.81 ms-² = 441.45 Newtons (N)

A = the area of both the soles of your feet
Say... a rough estimation for a size 7 foot = 0.25 m x 0.08 m = 0.02 m²
Total area of both soles = 0.02 x 2 = 0.04 m²

Pressure applied to the soles of your feet = 441.45N / 0.04m²
= 11036.25 kgms-²

As this 11036.25 kgms-² is applied to your soles, it is also transferred to your knees as part of energy transfer in the form of impact vibration.

As of Newtons' 3rd Law "For every action, there's an equal reaction".
So, as you land, the force that is exerted on the floor as you touch down fully will also general force that hits it upwards (in the opposite direction). This will tranfer a force upwards to your knees.

So, the heavier you are, the stronger the force that will punish your knees (your legs in whole).

Pressure, P = Force, F / Area, A
Force, F = Mass, m * Acceleration, a

Notice for F, it is governed by the value of m, which is roughly your weight.
'a' is very much fixed; gravitational acceleration = 9.81 ms-²

Otherwise, hold a pencil upside down, put your forefinger on the pointed end, then gently knock the butt of the pencil on a surface. You will feel that the harder you hit the surface, the more you feel the point poking your finger.

And notice that if you exert the same amount of force on a blunt pencil (bigger area of impact in comparison to sharp pencil) the feeling will be less.

Oh gosh, it's been years since I played with Physics.
It's likely to be wrong up there, but you get the idea.

Maybe some of you engineer guys could fix this? :)

[viver]

Originally posted by Joanne
Yep... I'm 12 this year. Why the 2 ??

Just a thought. You are 12 and your body is developing. Many instances kids of your age feel pain in their joints before a growth spurt - heels, knees, hips, etc. Not sure if this is your case, best is to consult a doctor, preferably one especialized in sports medicine.

Doing the ' invisible' chair is good for making your knees stronger, but in your situation may not be advisable until you get an opinion from a specialist. Some coaches say this exercise is not recommended for kids in developing phase - under 16 year old.

[Cheung]

Originally posted by wilfredlgf
Oh gosh, it's been years since I played with Physics.
It's likely to be wrong up there, but you get the idea.

Maybe some of you engineer guys could fix this? :)

You accounted for two soles of feet. People usually initially land on one foot first.

Also, there is the height of the jump which has not been accounted for.

And the situation in which the knee problem occurred for Wilfred was the scissor kick - I presume the scissor kick movement occurred during a leap backwards, so since the force is directed to the ground at a tangent, some playing around with vectors probably will be needed as correction factors.:)

[Neil Nicholls]

and the force on your body when landing is not necessarily the same as that of gravity on your body.
What I'm trying to say is that 9.81 ms-2 is the rate that gravity accelerates you.
What we need to consider is the rate of deceleration involved in the landing.

The higher you jump the greater your velocity on landing.
The more you bend your knees on landing, the greater the amount of time to decelerate to zero velocity. More time decelerating means a smaller rate of deceleration.

Inevitably, you have to put as much energy into landing as you do in jumping.
Your calves might play a greater part in the jump than the landing I expect.

[wilfredlgf]

People, didn't I add "(read:simple)"? :)

If someone would go and calculate the wind resistance, lost of energy (from bouncing), sole rubber elasticity... be my guest.

[wilfredlgf]

Originally posted by wilfredlgf
People, didn't I add "(read:simple)"? :)

If someone would go and calculate the wind resistance, lost of energy (from bouncing), sole rubber elasticity... be my guest.

Sorry Cheung and Mark Nicholls. I'm still feeling the after effects of yesterday's migraine and I tend to get 'irritated' pretty easily today. Your additions to the calculations I did earlier is most appreciated.

Darn, I really hate it when the 'aura patterns' begin to grow in my eyes, then as soon as it's over, the vomitting feeling takes over, half of the head hurts bad for the entire day.

I humbly apologize, gentlemen. :o

[Joanne]

Originally posted by viver
Just a thought. You are 12 and your body is developing. Many instances kids of your age feel pain in their joints before a growth spurt - heels, knees, hips, etc. Not sure if this is your case, best is to consult a doctor, preferably one especialized in sports medicine.

Doing the ' invisible' chair is good for making your knees stronger, but in your situation may not be advisable until you get an opinion from a specialist. Some coaches say this exercise is not recommended for kids in developing phase - under 16 year old.

Well, I hope you mean I might get my growth spurt? Waiting for it... still not yet happened and beginning to doubt it'll happen. Lol.

My coach does it with us all the time... guess it's okay. :)

Wilfred, great post. But truth is... I only understood... 1/4 of it. :D And don't try making it simpler anyhow, my simple brain won't even BOTHER to try to process it.

[Neil Nicholls]

no problem wilf, no offence taken.

using v^2 = u^2 + 2 g s (where g is gravity 9.81, s is height of jump)
and v = u + at (where a is the deceleration on landing)
and F = ma

v^2 = u^2 + 2 g s where u = 0 (at top of jump) becomes
a^2 t^2 = 2 g s substitute F/m for a
F^2 t^2 / m^2 = 2 g s
F^2 = 2 g s m^2 / t^2
F = m (2 g s)^0.5 / t

I reckon the force experienced on landing (in Newton) is

F = ( Body Mass in kg * (2 * 9.81 * height of jump in metres)^0.5) / time taken to land

with a bit of jumping up and down with a stopwatch (don't laugh) I reckon landing takes about 0.1 seconds (from first contact with floor to zero downward velocity)

rather than calculate the actual Force, which depends on each individuals mass, I will express it as a ratio to the force your body experience due to gravity.

So landing in 0.1s from a 0.3m jump subjects your body to approx 2.5g
(2.5g sounds a bit high so I reckon 0.1 seconds to land is too short)

double the landing time and you halve the g-force
double the height of the jump and you multiply the g by square root of 2 (approx 1.4)


Again, that's a simplistic view because I doubt if the rate of deceleration is constant, and it is only considering a jump that is straight up and straight down.

[AKFT]

........and you should be able to do all that calculation in your head before your jump smash would land in your opponent's court!!:D

[Joanne]

Originally posted by AKFT
........and you should be able to do all that calculation in your head before your jump smash would land in your opponent's court!!:D

Yeah! No wonder I'm not good... I'll have to do that in my head before a jump smash! Maybe it explains why I rarely do a jump smash then... ;)


Originally posted by Neil Nicholls
Again, that's a simplistic view because I doubt if the rate of deceleration is constant, and it is only considering a jump that is straight up and straight down.

Sure didn't sound simple to me. If I understand that will my knee be painful anymore???

[Cheung]

Originally posted by wilfredlgf
People, didn't I add "(read:simple)"? :)

If someone would go and calculate the wind resistance, lost of energy (from bouncing), sole rubber elasticity... be my guest. That's why I only wrote about the major factors, the other factors you have quoted only have a little contribution:D

I'm only a simple guy so I hardly ever put numbers in:D:D

[cooler]

Sure didn't sound simple to me. If I understand that will my knee be painful anymore???

Your knee will might be less painful but you'll get a headache from all this calculation on the run.:p

[Joanne]

My knee doesn't seem so bad lately since I've been more careful when twisting, once in a while it'll still hurt though. :(