Chinese pair reprimanded for tanking

LONDON: Chinese doubles duo Yang Wei and Zhang Jiewen have been reprimanded by the International Badminton Federation (IBF) after being found guilty of deliberately losing a quarter-final match at the World Championships in Birmingham earlier this month.

Yang Wei and Zhang Jiewen were given a dressing down by the IBF disciplinary committee after they were adjudged not to have been trying in a last-eight tie against compatriots and eventual world champions Gao Ling and Huang Sui, an IBF statement said.

Yang Wei and Zhang Jiewen were charged with bringing the game into disrepute under the players’ code of conduct for not trying against Gao Ling and Huang Sui, the world number one pairing.

Gao Ling and Huang Sui won a tight first game 15-11, but concerns were raised about the second game, which the defending champions won easily 15-3 to book their place in the semi-finals. – AFP

related thread on the incident:

http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10961

i've always wondered how you can prove someone is not trying ;)

reprimanded - basically a disapproval of their conduct. in other words, not really any penalty at all. i wonder if that's an appropriate action to deter similar future happenings. i remember previous cases has been fined,i wonder if IBF should've fined the Chinese pair just to warn that similar actions in the future will be punished.

If a fine was to be issued, who should deserve it? The pairing or the person(s) that gave the command... cough cough... Li or another member of authority on national team staff?

Maybe they should have been sentenced to acting classes by the chinese officials

A fine is just not good enough. I'd say suspension is the best course of action should a player do such misbehaviour in a world class tournament, accompanied with a fine that is.

As much as we may dislike what the Chinese players/coaches did, there should still be a sense of justice. In other words, proof is needed. I'm actually quite surprised that they even got a reprimand.

Remember we're talking about professional athletes here. Suspension is the hardest form of punishment for a professional athlete. I really don't think that this case calls for a suspension.

I say, hear hear to that mag

mag..
they should have been punished a bit harshly... firstly for the sake of game and secondly for the audience sake who spent their buck to see this sheer match-fixing... I support suspending them bcoz, then, they & their accomplice.. ;) .. would realise the fact.

I'm not sure it's the players who should be punished...

If their coach told them to act that way, they didn't have much choice.
I think the coaches should maybe be punished somehow (but this would require proofs...).

I can't agree with the idea of suspending the players. I'm sure Yang and Zhang wanted more than anyone to prove they could beat Gao and Huang in a fair match (i.e. best of 3 games), but the coaches have this win first/win all policy for the team's sake.

Yang and Zhang have already beaten Gao and Huang twice in the finals of other tournaments so they know they have the game, and it must be frustrating for them not to be able to play the match fully. I think to punish the players for a team policy is wrong.

If the IBF was sure enough of match-fixing to reprimand the players, then surely the IBF should have had the courage to penalise the Chinese coaches as well. But this way, by reprimanding Yang and Zhang, the IBF placates those other national teams who have complained, and they don't do anything to anger the Chinese Bad Assoc. It just seems the IBF have taken the easy way out instead of trying to handle the real issue.

I think that the coach should have been reprimanded together with the
players, and the responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen again be
put on the coach.

Originally posted by nSmash
I think that the coach should have been reprimanded together with the
players, and the responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen again be
put on the coach.

Yes, putting the blame solely on the players is simply not fair!:mad:

I don't think it will be fair for the players as well.. the team or coach should be warned as well. Hmmm its like Formula 1 already.. team orders on who to win.

technically, i think the players should be the ones who get fined as the WC is an individual event.

however, if they do get fined, i think the money will not be coming out of the pocket of the players but instead out of the pocket of the BA behind the decision...

i too think that suspension is a bit harsh as the violation concerned can be quite subjective and there can never be solid proof.

i still think a fine (can be small or medium amount) is the most appropriate punishment here. and i am surprised that IBF didn't do that.

i think suspension should be left for other more severe offense like drug taking that can be solidly proven.

Originally posted by TOmike
i've always wondered how you can prove someone is not trying ;)

I agree.

"Not trying" can contain totally various issues:

1. Strategy: like the rumors of chinese team, save the best pair for the next round

2. Stamina: If a player is totally out of gas after 1st set, what can we do to push him/her still put on a fight?

3. Mentally give up: Gong Rui Na uses 8 min to finish off her opponent in WC. Should we punish her opponent to not holding on for at least 15 min??? If u can argue with they have huge gap in skill, then, what about Zhang Ning aginst Carmilla and Mia? 11-0 on the 2nd set? Don't tell me these 2 could be 1000 steps behind Zhang, but simply they gave up mentally (maybe stamina as well). But how come no one cried out for that? At least, Yang/Zhang fought for 45 min, but Carmilla and Mia both gave up sooner than that. Should they be "fined" or "suspended" according to some posters here? Oh, no, they won't. Just because they are NOT in the chinese national team? So, we don't care about whether they "already fight to the bones" or "easily give up after there's no hope"??? Plz...

To me, punish someone for "not trying", is just ridiculous. No rulez are perfect, and if u can't find solid proof, u can't just "imagine" then issue punishment. Same thing applied for law, and any other sports.

Yeah, some times things might be just "obvious" (especially for the later opponent who lost). But, too bad. A true winner should just care about his/her own skill, but never complain other nations get a "pool" of good prospect. Put this way, Susi and Carmilla (back then) can fight through the huge chinese lady army. Never heard they complain about, hey blah blah blah save a little bit more stamina in the early round. Please... should I say that's "sour grape"???

In the recently American Basketball Olympic qualification game, CAN pulled their starters on bench when against USA (even when CAN was leading). The reason is simple, they can't win against NBA players, why not save the best for other opponents? I agree the coach's idea, "we are not coming here to do a surprise upset for US, we are here to qualify Olympics!!!". Same thing can apply for chinese team, "we not not here to prove who's the best pair in china, we are here to get a gold medal for the nation!!!"

Sorry, double post.

Originally posted by Iwan
A fine is just not good enough. I'd say suspension is the best course of action should a player do such misbehaviour in a world class tournament, accompanied with a fine that is.

Oh yeah???

Put this way, if 2 players of ur favorite team ever met in early round, and one lose the game with fairly large gap in the 2nd set. Will u ask IBF to punish them? Just because we think "blah blah blah"???

Is that fair for we judge player's performance just by "hey, they got 3 pts in 2nd set, but being able to get more in 1st"??? plz...

It's more like, we can sentence someone "intentional murder" without any solid proof, but just we know these 2 don't get along with each other, and use to get into a fight.

Very good arguments LB. I agree with you. I think IBF decided on their reprimand after they saw that Zhang/Yang won S'Pore Open gold. Then they think why can't the two do that at WC. Shuttlers will be on and off at different times. It's not like a lamp where one can just turn it on and off at command.

Also, does it really matter who won between Gao/Huang and Zhang/Yang? In the end, the gold medal still went to China as did silver. Even if Zhang/Yang did play their absolute best and won that match against Gao/Huang, the gold medal still and silver still would have went to China.

Not sure if any event can be considered individual event. True that only ranked players are invited to WC. But can an invited player participate in WC without the approval of the respective national badminton association? As far as I know, the invitation is addressed to the affiliated organization to send the nominated player - which has the decision whether to allow the player's participation or not. If that the case, I can't consider this an individual event.

A lot has been said about the Chinese system. Probably other power houses operate similarly. Match fixing within players of same country is not new. Reprimands were issued before and things haven't change. Like somebody mentioned, it's probably an easy way out for IBF.

I hope that other countries will do their best efforts to catch up with the power houses. If this happens then we will be able to see the players true abilities.

Originally posted by Hugo
Very good arguments LB. I agree with you. I think IBF decided on their reprimand after they saw that Zhang/Yang won S'Pore Open gold. Then they think why can't the two do that at WC. Shuttlers will be on and off at different times. It's not like a lamp where one can just turn it on and off at command.

Also, does it really matter who won between Gao/Huang and Zhang/Yang? In the end, the gold medal still went to China as did silver. Even if Zhang/Yang did play their absolute best and won that match against Gao/Huang, the gold medal still and silver still would have went to China.

Thnx for ur support.

1. If IBF really thinking like this, I am just running out of word. In any sports, there's no champ forever. The defending champ could be out in the 1st round in 2nd event. And in badminton, that could be very obvious, too.

2. I agree. Like I metioned before, it's more like a "sour grape" theory to me. Just someone being jealous about they are the champ. contender. If they are no name ones, just to advance to chip in more world ranking, I guess no one will really care about such issues any more.

3. Some IBF members always complain the "power house" over dominate, and not good for badminton spread out the world. Come on, those player are good not because their nationality, just because they have good training program, and most important, they train hard. We can't strip their titles, and punish them via "imagination", to make other non-contender's happy. If politics have to greatly influence the sports, what's the point to "fight harder"??? I can just simply complain everyday, and digging out excuse to get better ranking, without going through hard training. Then, is that a good sign to "spread out sports???" Geezzz...

i dont think the players should be punished too harshly...

consider the player's view: tank and fear IBF, refuse and fear their coach. It's a lose-lose situation.

Instead the reprimand should go to the team that instigate these tactics.

Couldn't agree more. Imagine the poor player who has been told to take it easy by the team coach. He's damned by the IBF if he does so, and damned by the coach if he gives it a proper shot.

You have to come down on the coach and/or team for this sort of thing, not the individual players (or at least not only the players).

exactly. It's not as though the players themselves benefit from tanking. I'm sure they'd love to have a second or even third match to show us what they got. Additional punishment isn't needed to convince them that its not a good thing.

I fail to see the big deal in this. Formular 1 drivers routinely "lose" to the more senior members of their teams. They call it team order.

On the other hand, I have always felt that there is too much "team" in a sport that is fundamentally an individual sport.

Let me add for your arguement and I like LzBd to comment on this.
In mid seventy, Liem Swie King in his 17 and peaks of his career met Rudy Hartono in his come back for the nineth times All England Single title. In that game Rudy had a blister in on of his foot and beat Liem in two stes to claim the title and broke the record for the only players to win 9th times All England.
During that year Rudy had never won from King. We are talking about people who had played, watched and involved in Badminton more than 20, 30 years and don't tell me that you can't tell whether the game was genuine or not.

Originally posted by sjoe
Let me add for your arguement and I like LzBd to comment on this.
In mid seventy, Liem Swie King in his 17 and peaks of his career met Rudy Hartono in his come back for the nineth times All England Single title. In that game Rudy had a blister in on of his foot and beat Liem in two stes to claim the title and broke the record for the only players to win 9th times All England.
During that year Rudy had never won from King. We are talking about people who had played, watched and involved in Badminton more than 20, 30 years and don't tell me that you can't tell whether the game was genuine or not.

I remember another event, the 2nd World Championships held in 1980(??) in Jakarta. Rudy beat Liem Swie King in 2 sets. There were suspicions about the result since Rudy wasn't at his peak at that time.

Originally posted by sjoe
Let me add for your arguement and I like LzBd to comment on this.

We are talking about people who had played, watched and involved in Badminton more than 20, 30 years and don't tell me that you can't tell whether the game was genuine or not.


Never know I can draw this much attention. Ok, let me repeat my point of view:

1. I agree. A lot of ref / staff are well experienced, and they might be able to find out some "weired" point in a game. However, can they tell about a sudden injury? Can they tell about how much stamina really left in the tank for each individual players? Most important, can they tell how serious the mental issue could effect the players (for example, a "border line" case call).

2. In the 1st set, Yang Wei got called for a fault for serving, when they were leading 10:9. She was arguing, but the umpire kept his ruling. Do we know how much this call might effect this game? To some of us, might be a small case. However, for such high level competition, this could be a momentum shift right there. Such examples happen every single day, and I don't think i need to explain in detail.

3. I totally respect their experience, and I am sure if we all sit down and judge various of cases, they should have much better chance to make the "best" call. However, they are more experience than me, or u, or any BFers, does not mean, they are "perfect". The best / most experienced detective still need the "solid proof" to arrest someone. I don't think anyone can just say, "arrest this guy, put him in jail, just because I have 20 yrs of experience", right???

4. If all the staffs from IBF are so "perfect" and experienced, why a lot of their decisions are still debating by us? I am not saying, they have to make the perfect decision, I just say, no decision is perfect, or anyone is always right. Whatever u think, or he thinks, might just be totally different than me think. If u want to convience me, just using, blah blah blah say so, or we have 20 yrs of experience, seems not good enough.

5. Put this way, if they did not lose the 2nd set in 10-15 min, but a little bit longer. What u will say? So, 3 pt in 15 min is no good, but if they can get 5 pt in 17 min should be good enough??? Let me bring back Gong Ruina and her oppoennt's case backagain. That poor girl lost in 8 min, should I say, "by my experience, she should not be that suck. she should get at least 2 more pts, and hold on for at least 10 min????" Don't forget, this poor girl lost several serve on her own, by serving out of bound. Should I claim, she did not "try hard" or at least, did not "try her best"??? Sure, someone might agree, but someone might not.

6. Another case for "experience". Umpire, ref. in every sports might make wrong call / judgement every single day. Many referee making critical wrong calls in critical moments. However, they are not rookies, either. They might played, coached, and judged their respective sports for a total of 30-50 yrs. But why they still might make wrong calls? For example, NBA ref. might call a fault on a player, when there was actually no intention physcial play? Baseball umpire might throw a pitcher out of game, after he hit a batter, but the poor pitcher might just lost his ball control a little bit more? Obvious, they made calls / judgement based on yrs of experience, but we all know, they are wrong. So, 20, 30 yrs of experience can't be a "solid proof" in this case.

From IBF's perspective, if the pair took longer to tank, that would have been good enough. IBF's attitude seems to be concerned about the entertainment value of a badminton match. Afterall, would you pay as much money to watch a tournament knowing that players would fake a few games rather than play their true best?

Originally posted by LazyBuddy
Thnx for ur support.
3. Some IBF members always complain the "power house" over dominate, and not good for badminton spread out the world. Come on, those player are good not because their nationality, just because they have good training program, and most important, they train hard. We can't strip their titles, and punish them via "imagination", to make other non-contender's happy. If politics have to greatly influence the sports, what's the point to "fight harder"??? I can just simply complain everyday, and digging out excuse to get better ranking, without going through hard training. Then, is that a good sign to "spread out sports???" Geezzz...

Valid comments, but there is a problem with the powerhouse strangle on Badminton.

1. IBF meeting at Thomas and Uber cups where Indonesia and China voted to extend validation
period for players to wait for playing for a different country.
This was just because Tony G and others, what is the point but just to keep dominance -
after all Hong Kong with Wang Chen, former world champ for China,
Holland with Mia Audina, former Indonesia champion, could win Uber cup!

2. Just look at Nations that have won Thomas, Uber and Sudirman cup - elite club.

3. China and Indonesia have a vast pool of players compare to other nation, where
some nations have hundreds of men's singles players, China has thousands, they
can burn players to produce champions. In the late 70's and 80's they were
still having players do depth jumps from ridiculous heights onto concrete floors!

I have no disagreement about there will to win, great coaches and talented players,
that have com from the countries, but some of the politicians and administrators
are just creating duo-opolies

Originally posted by bigredlemon
From IBF's perspective, if the pair took longer to tank, that would have been good enough. IBF's attitude seems to be concerned about the entertainment value of a badminton match. Afterall, would you pay as much money to watch a tournament knowing that players would fake a few games rather than play their true best?

I totally respect ur point of view.

However, if u r a coach, and under the pressure to get a medal for ur nation. Will u like to see two of ur best pairs fight to deuce in every set, and the whole game last 3 hrs? Never have to say, how u going to explain, if the winning pair got injury, or run out of stamina in the next round.

All the above, just under the some of the assumption, such as, "1 set determine all" theory by national team(s).

who cares about if they weren't really trying in the second game. At least this is not totally match fixing, they got to fight it out in the first didn't they?

Anyways, we all know the Zhang/Yang can beat Gao/Huang, as they have before. In the Nation's and the coach's prospective they want to win the gold. So why would they want to make they're players battle until they're dead and lose in the next round? Maybe one team is in better form during the tourny.

If any other nation calls this cheap well.. shaddup!! China can only do this because they have many good pairs that have made it that far.

AND all you spectators crying about how you paid the money and how you want a more exciting game.. well then dont go watch games that are China vs China. Watch the Finals!! according to the Chinese Coach from an earlier article they dont do this in the finals.

YOU People must Understand.. the game is the athelete's life.. its how he/she earns his/her living.. they won't deny their coach just for one mere game which they can win next time. If they deny the coach they'll just get replaced.. I'm sure there others in China that would like to play internationally too.

Ah... can a year never pass without having to go through the same argument over and over again? The wonders of badminton and the evils of superpower domination...

Forgive my audacity for proposing that this is siimply a matter of perspective. Done by a team you support, it's merely strategy; otherwise it's downright unscrupulous, damn those no-good, cheating SOBs.

I love the argument that "everyone else does it too"... In fact, I welcome the day when my own kids will tell me, "But Mum, Matthew (and Mark and Luke and John and Tom and Jerry and David AND Goliath) cheated in a test and vandalized the school wall and stole from a classmate and bashed up three boys - so why can't I do the same?"

After all, who was it that said if a million people say a stupid thing, it is STILL a stupid thing?

Oh btw, if internal match-fixing is acceptable because it helps a team win... why blame the players and coaches when their fellow linesmen calls a shot that is in "out" and a shot that is out "in"?

Don't worry, I see the point. There is a fundamental difference bwt a player who had to do three sets in an earlier match facing a formidable opponent who got a bye becoz his/her teammates threw the game and one who has to contend with a lying, cheating, no-good SOB of a linesman. Oh yes, a player that is mentally and physically tired out can *still* trash his opponent "if he is up to standard" but no matter how bright and energetic (and skillful) a player is, he can't beat a linesman who calls all his good shots out (hmm... would it be more appropriate to put a question mark or a period here?)

When it boils down to the common denominator, it's just a matter of wanting to win, ain't it? So by the same token, shall we all look forward to the day when drugs are legalized, people have bionic body parts, athletes maim their opponents and the country with the highest gold-medal tally is invariably the one that hosts the games (or the one with the strongest pool of talent in whatever sport)?

A ridiculous scenario, no doubt, but competitive sports has evolved to the stage whereby you can't really draw a line bwt black and white anymore.

Life's a bitch, smoke pot.

I agree with what Adel says about it being a matter of perspective - some of the later stuff on her post sounds like she's already started on the pot :p

Has anyone seen anything in the Chinese press about this? I'd be interested to know if the players themselves have said anything. Maybe it's all been hushed up over there.

Originally posted by david14700

Has anyone seen anything in the Chinese press about this? I'd be interested to know if the players themselves have said anything. Maybe it's all been hushed up over there.

There are more than 1 versions of reports in some other sites. Some indicates that Li yongbo already admitted he was using "strategy" in various matches, some indicates certain players are not happy by the "1 set match", but there are also plenty ones said they all denied about "internal matches".

I can't tell which one is true, which one is not, since it's really down to the reporters, whether they want to "make up" an article, or they just understood the words differently.

The only thing i can say is, no matter it's a 1-set, 2-set or 3-set match, the better one (real skill, or coach's decision, or future opponents' match, or mostly likely a combo of various factors) move on.

Originally posted by bigredlemon
Afterall, would you pay as much money to watch a tournament knowing that players would fake a few games rather than play their true best?

One thing I need to point out, "we" are the audience, and we want the different "value" than the players and coaches.

For us, of course, I want make every penny of my ticket worth. I want to watch a 5 hr intensive match between top elites, but the players and coaches might think different.

Here are some examples from various sports:

1. NBA: Many times, a team leading 30+ pts entering the last quarter will rest their starters. We call the last quater "garbage time". You will see all the bench and rookies playing low quality games. Why? The decision is there, why risk to injur ur all stars for non-sense? The best way, is to save ur best for the next game, and give some time to warm up the seldom use players.

2. NHL: Same as NBA. If a team is leading by 5 goals in the last 2 min, they might rest their all-stars. Part of the reason is similar as in #1, and part is due to the losing team might lose "cool", and start to knocking around. This will further increase the chance to lose a valueable player.

3. NFL: Entering last quater, leading by 30+ pts. Many coaches will use "running" game and "time out" to waste as much time as possible. Why can't they try to score more TD or at least FG? Why can't they put more fancy "airborne attack" (passing game) as they did before? Simple, u score fast, u give ur opponent more chance to score back. Why risk it?

All the above show, the 2nd half or the last 25% of ur ticket means, "garbage time" or "cheating strategy" or "no guts" or whatever. Will u complain? If yeah, I guess everyday u will find tons of "cheating" teams / players / coaches from ESPN.

surely it's a little different though. Taking the nba the team has still gone out, put itself ahead and only really opts to rest players when they feel they are suitably far ahead the game is won.

Bringing it to premiership (english) football (since I don't know who is good in the nba at the moment) you certainly don't expect someone like Wolves to not even bother when they play ManU because they expect to lose. No, they give it their all and if ManU win it's by being the better team.

That's fair play, and fair competition. That must be what the people who pay for the tickets are after. If ManU rest a few players at 3-0 after 70 minutes then fine, the team has still gone out, worked hard and won the game.

The problem with the badders is it seems exactly the equivalent of Wolves going out with no intention of trying to beat the opposition. That is simply not right.

(note: Wolves and Utd were used simply because they are pretty much at opposite ends of the table - I'm a Liverpool supporter)

agree with LB,

when manchester united played wolverhampton wanderers the other week, they played a weakened team (football), but won, then played their stronger team for southampton, and lost!!

It happens all the time in football (soccer), especially in the champions league group stages, when a team has already qualified, they can be charged for unsportmanlike behaviour, but i dont know if anybody ever has.

when teams lead 2-0 they often sub with 30mins to go, to weakened side. the chinese pair lost the first so may have rested themselves for later tournaments...maybe. my brother actually has told me he watched the match more than me and one of them he says was injured, the other was running around more, covering.

By the way, what evidence did they use, as it was not televised, so no video evidence could be used.

overall though if you can do it they why not.

Aside from the general discussion on the morality of 'tanking' a match, the last post mentioned that one of the players was injured in that match.

I've read elsewhere that Yang Wei, the player who was by far the weakest on the court that day, had a back injury and had to pull out during the next tournament. An injury that gets worse in the second game is not unusual. In fact, if you are injured and you come through a first tough game, you often see pairs collapse in the second. Now I'm not saying Yang and Zhang didn't lose the second game deliberately, they may have, but if they didn't and Yang had a real injury, then it seems that they have been treated unfairly.

I think the IBF needs to come up with some pretty clear rules on what will constitute 'evidence' of deliberate losing. At least there should be some requirements like video evidence or something. But practically, it will be hard to prove.

Originally posted by woop.


The problem with the badders is it seems exactly the equivalent of Wolves going out with no intention of trying to beat the opposition. That is simply not right.



The problem is, how u going to tell how hard a player / team tried just based on the final score or game duration?

Let me put a laughable example. If a world elite playing against Chen Hong (MS #1), say he did not really want to compete, but he still be able to hold on for 10 min and get several pts. If me against Chen Hong, I guess no matter how impressive my shot (of course, to a club level player standard), how hard I try, I don't think I can score any point and don't think I will last for more than 3 min. If u talk about the final score, u can easily say, ok, the other elite player "tried" harder, since he got better score. But the truth is obviously the opposite. I am the one trying "harder" (at least mentally), but the result was limited due to skill, strenth, experience, etc.

Tired about using Gong Ruina, and Zhang Ning (against Mia and Carmilla) example over and over. But they are all "live" examples of different level of elites' performance in a particular day. How we going to make conclusion on those???

Also, Yang Wei was arguing about her serving fault, and Yang/Zhang fought for 45 min against the later world champ. I really don't think we can conclude them with "no intention of trying to beat the opposition". ;)

I agree with some of your points of view, such as IBF cannot punish/condemn players simply because the players, form the observation of judges, are not ¡®trying.¡¯ More investigation should be done before putting the sign ¡®not ¨C trying ¡® on the players.

But saying game fixing is equivalent to game strategy is inappropriate.

Using NBA and NHL as examples. Why rest starters when the team has leading with 30+points or 5 goals with 3 minutes left? You have said it, the decision is there. The coach and players didn¡¯t deliberately try to alter the out come of the game. And don¡¯t think that the bench players will just play a ¡®not ¨C trying¡¯ game. Even they are not as good as the starters, they perform their best when step up to the court. That is sports. But when a player is ordered (assumption) to give up a game by his/her coach or organization, that is misconduct. That is cheating.

Using NFL as an example, why the running back try to protect the ball and run out the time instead of trying to score for more touch downs? Because it is a part of football strategy. They are trained of doing that when practicing. Protecting the ball and managing the clock is just as hard as trying to score a touch down. Can you say they are cheating? No, but opposite, they create tremendous excitement just trying to protect the ball. You can¡¯t say the same about a fixed badminton game. They are totally different. You don¡¯t train performing a fixed game during a badminton practice, do you?

At the highest level of competition, everyone try to get his or her edge by doing careful planning and game strategy. But game fixing shouldn¡¯t be one of them. From the coach and players perspective, winning is all they care about. That is why they go over the board from time to time. But when that happen, they are punished.

As a badminton fan, I understand why coaches and players sometime cross the line. But I will not support and send a message to encourage this kind of behavior. Some even praise this kind of behavior. Sure, many coaches and players from all over the countries will cheat from time to time. But they are minorities. Badminton is not just played by the badminton powerhouses. They are many more countries obey and follow the rules. So which side will you support?

This is a complicated issue and cheating in sports will continue to happen. But the message here is loud and clear, no game fixing in badminton, not two game, one game or 5 points. Game fixing in any way is not acceptable. Period.

Originally posted by fan


But saying game fixing is equivalent to game strategy is inappropriate.

Using NBA and NHL as examples. Why rest starters when the team has leading with 30+points or 5 goals with 3 minutes left? You have said it, the decision is there. The coach and players didn¡¯t deliberately try to alter the out come of the game. And don¡¯t think that the bench players will just play a ¡®not ¨C trying¡¯ game. Even they are not as good as the starters, they perform their best when step up to the court. That is sports. But when a player is ordered (assumption) to give up a game by his/her coach or organization, that is misconduct. That is cheating.

Using NFL as an example, why the running back try to protect the ball and run out the time instead of trying to score for more touch downs? Because it is a part of football strategy. They are trained of doing that when practicing. Protecting the ball and managing the clock is just as hard as trying to score a touch down. Can you say they are cheating? No, but opposite, they create tremendous excitement just trying to protect the ball. You can¡¯t say the same about a fixed badminton game. They are totally different. You don¡¯t train performing a fixed game during a badminton practice, do you?

At the highest level of competition, everyone try to get his or her edge by doing careful planning and game strategy. But game fixing shouldn¡¯t be one of them. From the coach and players perspective, winning is all they care about. That is why they go over the board from time to time. But when that happen, they are punished.

As a badminton fan, I understand why coaches and players sometime cross the line. But I will not support and send a message to encourage this kind of behavior. Some even praise this kind of behavior. Sure, many coaches and players from all over the countries will cheat from time to time. But they are minorities. Badminton is not just played by the badminton powerhouses. They are many more countries obey and follow the rules. So which side will you support?

This is a complicated issue and cheating in sports will continue to happen. But the message here is loud and clear, no game fixing in badminton, not two game, one game or 5 points. Game fixing in any way is not acceptable. Period.

1. I never said "game fixing is 100% eq. to game strategy." What I said is, without solid proof, how could we conclude such issue is whether accident, strategy, or cheating, etc? And u seems agreed with this point already.

2. I totally agree ur argument in NBA, NHL, and NFL. However, I was using all-star vs bench, high scoring offense vs low scoring conservative plan just to show "high quality exciting game type vs. low quality (not applied for NFL running) game type". Of course, the bench players also try hard, but u have to agree the entire game quality is nowhere close to when all stars compete with each other. The intensity and the excitement is no where near the "last shot buzzer beater" type. For fans like us, I am sure 99% of us will want to pay for the high-flying all-star due rather than some bench playing 50% of time games. Otherwise, why they pay $$$ to the all stars to play, they can just grab suck players like me to perform. Simple, right?

3. I agree player should try hard. However, if something happened (say, a sudden injury during game play), or, a player knows today is definitely not his/her day in luck (super low ranking against top 5, Gong Ruina's example), or performance (Mia, Camilla against Zhang Ning in WC), why not take it easy and settle for the future? Let me use another example in NBA. Grant Hill injuried himself in playoff before he got traded from Piston to Magic. We all knew he was hurt, but he was trying to carry the team for 1 more shot. Then, after that, he can never play a full game for the past 2-3 yrs. Is that really worth that? I don't know. He was taking a chance, or, might not realize how serious it is, or, the injuries might not have direct relationship with each other. But what abut it is??? Surely not good for himself or his team or his fans.

4. #3 is too long, let me continue here. Yang/Zhang quit in Ind. Open, due to Yang had a injury. The chinese team official claimed that Yang got this minor issue back in WC. So, let's think, this minor case might bothering her in that intensive match against Huang/Gao? Might be. If it is, can we still complain they did not fight???

5. I am never a supporter for cheating. However, exactly as "fan" indicated, they are not the same case. Therefore, without enough evidence to indicate which is which, I don't think we can draw the conclusion quickly.

Originally posted by woop.
surely it's a little different though. Taking the nba the team has still gone out, put itself ahead and only really opts to rest players when they feel they are suitably far ahead the game is won.

Bringing it to premiership (english) football (since I don't know who is good in the nba at the moment) you certainly don't expect someone like Wolves to not even bother when they play ManU because they expect to lose. No, they give it their all and if ManU win it's by being the better team.

That's fair play, and fair competition. That must be what the people who pay for the tickets are after. If ManU rest a few players at 3-0 after 70 minutes then fine, the team has still gone out, worked hard and won the game.

The problem with the badders is it seems exactly the equivalent of Wolves going out with no intention of trying to beat the opposition. That is simply not right.

(note: Wolves and Utd were used simply because they are pretty much at opposite ends of the table - I'm a Liverpool supporter)

Thats no COMPARISON... thats just stupid.. MANU AND WOLVES ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT TEAMS.. but we're talkin about CHINA PLAYING CHINA.. IF YOU WEREN'T STUPID then you might have notice they're the same team. IT's TEAM Strategy. AND its not like that the coaches are commandin one side to lose.. they always play the first set.. but they just save strength for after

Originally posted by Xero
Thats no COMPARISON... thats just stupid.. MANU AND WOLVES ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT TEAMS.. but we're talkin about CHINA PLAYING CHINA.. IF YOU WEREN'T STUPID then you might have notice they're the same team. IT's TEAM Strategy. AND its not like that the coaches are commandin one side to lose.. they always play the first set.. but they just save strength for after

calling names is very much against the spirit of this forum. so in the future please refrain from doing that... thanks. ;)

Originally posted by Xero
Thats no COMPARISON... thats just stupid.. MANU AND WOLVES ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT TEAMS.. but we're talkin about CHINA PLAYING CHINA.. IF YOU WEREN'T STUPID then you might have notice they're the same team. IT's TEAM Strategy. AND its not like that the coaches are commandin one side to lose.. they always play the first set.. but they just save strength for after

I don't agree calling names, insulting others posters. He/she may have an opinion not same as yours and this difference makes this forum interesting. Please do discuss using your arguments properly. No name calling please!

This issue is not a new one. I believe it will continue and there does not seem any way to prevent it - unless other countries produces players of similar abilities as the Chinese ladies.

Also, badminton players are not self sufficient. They can't survive solely from badminton. If they could, I'd think this issue would be minimized.

Originally posted by Xero
Thats no COMPARISON... thats just stupid.. MANU AND WOLVES ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT TEAMS.. but we're talkin about CHINA PLAYING CHINA.. IF YOU WEREN'T STUPID then you might have notice they're the same team. IT's TEAM Strategy. AND its not like that the coaches are commandin one side to lose.. they always play the first set.. but they just save strength for after

1. Please show some respect to others, even though, you might disagree with his/her idea. No need to use very offensive words in ur arguement. The one shouts the loudest, might not necessary the one got the best answer.

2. Can't really agree with ur idea. Ppl (including me) using different examples, not to show whether there's a "internal conflict" or a "team vs others" issue. We just say, there MIGHT be "strategy" involved in sports, regardless who the opponents are. Of course, none of us got solid proof for whether certain cases are really the way as we thought, we brought this up for discussion and just under our own assumption / observation.

Originally posted by LazyBuddy
1. Please show some respect to others, even though, you might disagree with his/her idea. No need to use very offensive words in ur arguement. The one shouts the loudest, might not necessary the one got the best answer.

2. Can't really agree with ur idea. Ppl (including me) using different examples, not to show whether there's a "internal conflict" or a "team vs others" issue. We just say, there MIGHT be "strategy" involved in sports, regardless who the opponents are. Of course, none of us got solid proof for whether certain cases are really the way as we thought, we brought this up for discussion and just under our own assumption / observation.

I wholeheartedly agree, respect is paramount in not just Badminton, but other sports.
Champions are ones that limit or eliminate emotions.

My problem is pair A/player A throwing against their countrymen in pair B/player B in finals, but semis and quarters, where the winner from the other semi/quarter has a tough match, then faces the other winner which has had a easy match.

This is the case with some countries sending bigger squads to tournaments, including sparring partners.

Originally posted by jump_smash

My problem is pair A/player A throwing against their countrymen in pair B/player B in finals, but semis and quarters, where the winner from the other semi/quarter has a tough match, then faces the other winner which has had a easy match.


I agree ur concern, however, "luck" is part of the game as well.

Put this way, let's say A, B, C, D all from different nations. In 1st round, A beats B using 10 min, 15-0, 15-0, while C bests D using 3 hrs, 17-16, 16-17, 17-16. Obviously, A will have much more stamina left when he's facing C. However, should we complain, and if A beats C in the next round, we complain "it's not fair"??? Of course, we can't. Then, why we complain about the chinese team (remember, they fought for 40+ min, against the top rank pairs)? Yeah, there's might be rumors about "strategy", but that's just our assumption.

Let's not forget about the facts:

1. Yang / Zhang fought against Ra/Lee in earlier round. Should they complain they met the toughest pair (besides chinese ones), while other facing easy opponents?

2. Yang / Zhang fought against the future champ. for 40+ min. Any time, when u fought against the champ. over 40+ min, I can't say that's "easy task".

3. Draw is part of the game. Someone might face easier opponent or get a workover by luck. Someone might face tough opponents every single round. However, skill is the most important issue. The true champ should not focus on "who i am going to against tomo" everyday, but think "no matter who's on the other side, I will win".

4. Peter Gade beats K. Jonassem in 2nd round of Singapore open in 42 min (15-3, 15-12), beats Peter Rasmussem in 3rd round in 45 min (15-5, 15-6). Both players are better than Gade record vise. How come no one ever complain about Denmark team for "protential giving ranking pt. for Gade"???

5. Obvious, Yang / Zhang were against better ranking players and lasted longer, and scored more points (referring to #4). Therefore, if they can assume "chinese players didn't try", why can't we assume "they just jealous about chinese pairs got the champion, and being 'sour grape'"???

Sorri

But I'm sure most people here are badminton players too. Why do they keep looking at this event in a spectator point of view. Wanting the players punished? Why don't they see it in the players point of view?

Imagine that you're a chinese player whose been training for Badminton from young for most of the day and only getting less education than most people. Naturally, Badminton becomes your only way of earning a living. If you were to be suspended, wat are you goin to do for a living?

Then, when the coach tells you that if you play a teammate you only play the first set and the loser of that set will give up. (as Li Yong Bo states) Why not? You have an equal chance at the next tourny if you lose. But if you denied your coach, theres many other quality players in China too which can replace you. A simple decision.

And I think when the coaches explain this to their players it is told to be a mere strategy so they assist they're team mates in the the next round.

Once again I apologize for my disrespect, just this talk about how a country is cheating just because they have players playing each other and that the coaches tell them to play a 1 set match to save energy for they're team mates made me angry. :o

Or it might have been wat LB said too.. just luck..
Maybe theres no match fixing..

The most important thing is respecting other peoples' ideas and opinions. Often they don't match ours and this is not a problem. Present your arguments and if they accept fine if not, don't get emotional. You also have your opinion about this subject and it won't change until somebody can present strong arguments.

BF have participants of diverse nationalities and backgrounds. You can't expect all the participants to agree on certain issues. Each person's opinion is based on education, culture and personal experiences, I think. So, be patient and understandable towards fellow participants. This way you'll also helping them understand you better.

I am surprised people are still trying to debate "if" China fix matches. Any experienced spectators know this to be a fact, and expect the matches to be fixed. The debate should be how/if this can be stopped or punished.

The fixing has been going on for years, it was just never so blatant as at the worlds.

In the womens game the only way I can see the monopoly being broken is if top chinese players move away and play for other countries more.

Perhaps badminton should move to being a more individual sport, like tennis. In tennis players play for themselves and largely fund / train themselves (of course there's more money) rather than their country. The downside of that is that the olympics are relatively unimportant to tennis players and fans.

Originally posted by dlp
The fixing has been going on for years, it was just never so blatant as at the worlds.

In the womens game the only way I can see the monopoly being broken is if top chinese players move away and play for other countries more. 1) 1992 All England mens singles final was a great example:D

2) or other countries raise themselves to the standards that the chinese women have set in recent years.

Originally posted by dlp

In the womens game the only way I can see the monopoly being broken is if top chinese players move away and play for other countries more.
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?? What's wrong with the monopoly? Its not as if they're a company. They are the ones who worked to get there, they were helped by chinese coaches and training ( i guess) so why should they change countries? Good on them that they are so strong.