NEWS: 5x7 - two down 3 to go.

[kwun]

Malaysian greats have <a target=top_ href="http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2001/4/9/sports/0953kill&sec=sports">spoken against</a> the 5x7 point system. we already know that Li of China is against the new system too.

with this, we have a total 2 of 5 big badminton powerhouses against the new system.

we do know that Denmark (or at least, Gade and Camilla) are for the new system.

has Indonesia and Korea commented on it yet?

[May]

I don't think so and u said u wanted Danish news in English the other day, ryt??? U could try www.dillesport.dk/

[cooler]

i think maybe the 9x5 is a good compromise but imo, 15x3 is still better

[Cheung]

After watching 5 x 7 system in the Swiss Open, well.. it wasn't that enjoyable.

OK., so the game speeds up. But we have the fastest racquet sport in the world already!! So why speed things up even more.

After being to Japan, I saw that everyday (or so it seems) that Baseball is on TV.
Why baseball? There's lots of breaks and people rubbing their crotches. A guy in a mask keeps pointing to the side. What's so good about that?

So baseball is really popular anyway.
So's basketball, and American football and Soccer
Tennis?
Golf?

What's common? Team sports...partly. What else? Lots of slow bits with fast action.

How's badminton different? Very few slow bits to savour the game.
How can you discuss what went on in the last point when the next point is underway already?
How can we appreciate the tactics of the 20 rally point (and learn) when the next rally is already underway?
How can the commentators comment on the spectacular trick shot when even the filming crew have trouble fitting it in whilst the action is still continuing?
Or even worse, they can't even get the chance to show us how some particular shot turned around the whole rally.
Then how can you expect non-players to keep up with the game, how can badminton even hope to be a mass spectator sport?

Instead of 5 x7 system, I propose a 5 x 9 system or keep at 3 x 15. The major change I would suggest is when the first player to reaches five points and then ten points, there needs to be an interlude of 60 or 90 seconds.
Between the first game and second game, there should be at least two minutes. For goodness sake, how many adverts can be fitted into 90 seconds between games and also have some meaningful analysis of the first game by the commentators.
We can then have some time for the slow motion action replays that are so effective in other sports.

How much time would be added on to a game with these additions? Around 7 to 10 minutes. Too much - I don't think so.

What I don't want to see is badminton just becoming a sport of physical attrition. We gotta have different styles, tactics being more appreciated. A pure physical contest is no fun. A completely exhausted player is no fun to watch either.
BTW, I am still against time outs.


Just letting off steam but I do think these are valid points. :o)

[marshall]

Well-argued point, Cheung. I agree. Watching a tape, we have to rewind several times to catch some of the action, and we can never discuss anything while the tape is running. Your suggestions for breaks would provide the TV adverts time and also allow some older players like Hoyer-Larsen to remain competitive longer.

For a small country like Denmark, the larger player pool that would result from longer playing careers could help provide more depth and make the DANISH TEAM (sorry, hit caps lock) more competitive overall.

Also, it might reduce the number of injuries that cause some talented players to retire early. Couldn't the breaks during games reduce injuries?

marshall

[Kelvin]

Now who's been drinking :lol:
jk... B)

[Bbn]

I think you guys have a point.I was watching a recording of

Ae final between the 2 INa pairs and they were playing so fast

I couldn,t follow the game. After one set I switched off

because I coul;dn,t keep my eyes open, that was after I had

awoke from sleep! The racquets are so powerful today, they

better use slower shuttles in tournaments.Like Razif said there

is no art in badminton, nowadays I prefer watching ladies

singles than mens.

[Cheung]

There was no alcohol involved. Only coca cola.

Marshall and Birdbrain brought up additional points which I hadn't mentioned for fear of sounding too lengthy.

I too have fallen asleep watching badminton.

15 years ago, the least watched event was women's doubles. If you compare women;s doubles now, the difference is incredible. Attack, soft shots, subtlety and power. The top women's doubles are really entertaining to watch. I wonder how they would compare to some of the men's doubles players 25 years ago.

[Kelvin]

Wow, I didn't think it would be possible to fall asleep watching badminton.

I honestly find it invigorating watching the pro's play, and at such a great pace.
I find the more I watch them, the more my game on court improves mentally, and possibly even physically, as I watch their movements, I try to mimic them.

Now about the scoring system.. yes Cheung you're right about the fact that we play the fastest court sport, in the world, and I don't see the point in trying to make the game go even faster by cutting down the set length to such a low score... a 9X5 scoring might be more suitable for play... however, I believe when it comes back to the big tournaments, like the World Championships, and All England, they should keep the traditional 15X3 system.
Also I liked the fact that in the AE tournament, the players were wearing clothing of different colors, and also had their names on them, kind of like in other sports...

Anywho... I guess basically with the new scoring system, it'll benefit whoever can reach 7 points in their games first... and make the game more about attacking rather than, having more strategy... I dont know just my opinion.

[Pebulutangkis]

oh puhleeeeeeeezzzzeeeeeee how can u sleep in the MD finals? its the only finals i will never sleep in, but i can sleep in all other 4 finals. i mean the faster it is, the more u get awake. anyway, i play best in MD, not MS or MXD.

[Kelvin]

Umm... I think we're talking about watching the videos, not actually playing. :)

[Bbn]

Remember how recently in table tennis how they changed

weight and size of ball so it can be easily seen on TV?

It was only about 10 years ago they changed speed and aerpodynamics of tour shuttles because of increase of power

of racquets.It is not game is no good, rather players and bird

travel so fast it is difficult to follow and appreciate.

[kwun]

they changed the speed of shuttles????

the correct speed test is to launch the shuttle from baseline, and the shuttle should land near the double service baseline. i don't know that has change for as long as i can remember.

[Brett]

That could be the key to making the game better for television - increase the size of shuttles 5-10%. They will be easier to see and will go a bit slower so it will be easier to see on tv and may cause an increase in emphasis on touch shots, rather than power shots.

[Bbn]

Kwun get hold of an old tour feather shuttle from your closet

and you will see diff, longer feathers, slimmer and more likely

to spin and wobble.If you hit it with your Ti racquet it should go

out 1 m from baseline.

[Pebulutangkis]

yeah wat i meant is the more action IN THE VIDEO, the more likely u wont fall asleep.

[Cheung]

I'd rather have some intellectual participation from the commentors, but they don't have the time or the opportunity to do so.

Just how many slow motion replays can you see of the mid-rally shots?

Fast, yes OK, I like that as well. American football is pretty fast once the action starts. And it stops again so you can take a breather and watch the slow motion replay of that home run.

On some American football I've seen (and I don't see much), the commentators make little markings on the screen explaining how the team's tactics are working. That's really good.

Variaty keeps one's interest up in a game so to keep playing at full pace becomes pretty boring because then it's a case of who plays faster will win. Oh um, forgive me if I'm wrong but the most interesting and fascinating parts of the games are parts where the slower player(s) somehow win points against the faster player(s). In this situation, one is thinking "how did they do that?" and "hey, can I do that when I play my next game".

Let's try another analogy:
In Formula One racing, the racing is fast and furious and punctuate by pit stops, twists and turns forcing the drivers to slow and make new judgements. This allows opportunities for overtaking.
In America, there's another version (can't quite recall the official name at this moment) where the cars go full speed around an oval circuit. Oh my, it's just so much more repetative (except when there's a crash).

In badminton, if more action means more smashing, then the thinking goes out of badminton. It's obvious whose going to win. The ones with the harder smashes are going to get the win. Well, you might as just measure how hard the players can smash on that particular day and then say the one with the harder smash is given a win! In fact, that is precisely what didn't happen in Japan when the danes beat the Indonesians in the Semi-final. And that was a much more enjoyable match (the parts I did see).


A good intellectual discussion on badminton tactics is far less likely to make me fall asleep than faster action. Many may concur.

[cooler]

cheung, good to see u got off the fence :) regarding the scoring format.

i dont think it is badminton being too fast that puts off the media people but more to do with lacks of breaks. Hockey puck is fast, so fast amercian adopted blue and red dots on the tv screen to represent the travelling puck but hockey is very popular in north america. Hockey game have lots of break, off side, penalty, fighting, puck go over plexiglass, goalkeeper holding puck to get a new faceoff, etc. Drag racing is fast, race duration is less than 6 seconds. I think media programming prefer breaks for commerical and commentary. Badminton game wasnt designed for that purpose. Also, big and famous sport commentors and analysts have little or no knowledge of badminton game, they dont know what to say so tv producers shunt away badminton. Look at most big sport telecast, they got big name ex-pro to do the analysis and color commentary. Badminton doesnt have big name or famous pro (with good speaking ability too) to do it. So far posters in BC mentioned only 2 celebrities that like badminton, paul newman and leo D. IBF have to do something more creative, not just tinkering the scoring system. IBF have to go at it at all fronts. Unfortunately, most of the IBF executives are from outside of north america. Trying to understand and penetrate into north america audience by these people are, imo, is not their forte.

[Brett]

Cooler, I have only been paying attention to badminton on the international level for around a year, but I am not aware of anything that the IBF has done to promote badminton in North America. Have I missed something in this past year? Has the IBF made any other efforts to promote the sport on our continent in years past?

[cooler]

lack of forte = not doing much in north america

[Steplantis]

Thought I`d chuck in my ideas along with everyone else.......

I can see both benefits and disadvantages to having a shorter scoring system - in the article mentioned above many of the ex-Malaysian stars said the system would favour fast attacking players and to some extent that`s true at the present time. As this system is fairly new in international competitions it`s natural that players think that in order to win they should attack more but I wonder if in time this would change slightly if this scoring system became the standard. I`ll give you an example:

I recently watched a video of the 1997 Indonesian Open MS final between Ardy and Marleve Mainaky and it was great to see Ardy`s way of soaking up his opponents attack and creating openings for himself to score points. A shorter scoring system with more breaks between games, would benefit someone like Ardy too - he has to work a great deal to get back all those smashes and cuts and so with more breaks he has recovery time to keep this level of attacking defense going. Maybe in the future some players will decide to go along this tactical plan where as they know they can have more breaks, they decide to try and soak up the opponents attack and then counter-attack. Also as far as the person having the hardest smash winning, as mentioned above, if you don`t give your opponent easy lifts to attack then he can`t smash at you ( or at least not as effectively).
Also I`ve noticed in watching mens singles over the last few years, the number of easy misses seems to be increasing and from a spectators point of view ( well for me at least) it`s not very entertaining watching periods in the middle of a 15 point game where there are many shots going into the net from serves, or net-shots being sprayed wide etc. A shorter scoring system won`t allow the players the luxury of making such mistakes, as they`ll have to be more consistent. Now some of you may think it`s unfair to penalise the attacking player, who`s going for his shots within a small margin of error and is likely to make mistakes but who will more often make spectacular jump smashes, cuts etc, BUT I would hope that the system wouldn`t do that. Instead I`d hope the players would figure out that they have to be more intelligent in their attack which would lead to more rallies as they try to outmanouvere their opponent to setup a good scoring chance - they can`t just get away with trying to blast their opponent off the court because there`s a high risk of making mistakes.
If the players started using this shorter scoring system in training exclusively you would probably see some changes in training habits and styles of play. As it is at the moment the 15 point game probably has three 5 point sections anyway, at least in the minds of the players, so it`s not such a great leap to move to the shorter system.
However having said all of that I do think that 7points is a little too short - as Cheung suggested above 9 points is probably better, at least then you`re only cutting off 5 points overall.

Any comments?? Sorry about the length of the message!

[cooler]

good technical analysis steplantis. I saw the same situation in tennis between stepfie graf and elder william sister.

[Cheung]

Extremely valid points though I think a defensive player like Ardy would expend less energy than the attacking player.

What I would hope with breaks at every 5 points scored is some time for players to catch their breath, less interruption for towelling breaks, think about the tactics used and see if any changes can be made. Hopefully, with a fresher player, we won't see so many of the unforced errors occurring from physical tiredness until the very end.

Breaks at 5 points also allows a more predictable time for the TV people to select the Adverts and show a particular rerun.

It's true to say that the 5 x 7 system and its tactics haven't fully evolved as yet but after seeing it in practice, I am less convinced of it benefits to the players (although there were more adverts).

[Cheung]

Off the fence? Just didn't want to be too early with shooting off an opinion without considering much of the info.

Yes, you are quite right, I should have said not enough breaks in badminton rather than 'Too fast'.

Who is Leo D?

[cooler]

call it even. Beside, taking time to make a good call is a valuable trait of your profession.

Remember, american loves speed, that why we badminton fans still like to claim that we have the fastest (manual powered) sport in the world.

leo d = leonardo di caprio ( from the titanic movie)

I agreed that with the new 7x5 system, there shouldn't be any water or towel break. Just shuttle change breaks

[cooler]

we or us here in BC have probably asked more questions and discussed more deeply on the scoring format than IBF themselves have.

[Kelvin]

Both beach vb, and indoor...

They all take so many time outs, for breaks to regroup...

Maybe something like this at a 9X5 system would benefit our sport especially for TV viewing purposes.

However i find myself staying hardcore like most of you, and keeping with our 15X3 system.

Hmm... IBF, if you're reading you should consider the views of this minute group of hardcore players here, as we represent your core supporters, that are actually here voicing our opinions, rather than staying quiet about the topics.

[Adel]

Leo di Cap likes badminton? Now, that's one good reason to like him! Coz I can't find any others...

[Brett]

Maybe I'm just not aware of every topic discussed at the IBF, but doesn't it seem like the posters on this site have better opinions on improving badminton than the international governing body of the sport?

[Cheung]

e-mail him with the info that there's badminton to be found in HK. Look me up first!

[cooler]

Originally posted by cooler
So far posters in BC mentioned only 2 celebrities that like badminton, paul newman and Leonardo DiCaprio. IBF have to do something more creative, not just tinkering the scoring system. IBF have to go at it at all fronts. Unfortunately, most of the IBF executives are from outside of north america. Trying to understand and penetrate into north america audience by these people are, imo, is not their forte.

On jay leno talk show, tom hanks was interviewed about the upcoming movie Road to Perdition (jul12) co starring Paul Newman. Tom hanks was telling jay leno that Paul Newman is a badminton fanatic. Every moment he got a break off the set or a day off acting, Paul is off to the badminton court. Badminton badminton, everytime Paul find excuses to play badminton. So far, this was the biggest exposure of badminton on the america national TV. I find that pretty funny.

[kwun]

who has Paul Newman's phone number???

we need to chat.

[Mag]

So now we have both Paul Newman and Leonardo Di Caprio (who allegedly has a private badminton court -- and uses it) that could act as ambassadeurs for the sport... If the IBF had some marketing talent they would have explored this already! :)

[UkPlayer]

he plays at westport YMCA according to a web search - and he beat Michael Bolton who says he is a 'master'

Oh and he taught Linda Fiorentina to play apparently - I wonder if she needs a mixed partner?!

[kwun]

UKP: damn. and i used to live around CT...

here is what PN said in an interview:

"Well. You know, I don’t mean this as whining, but really, ask Joanne. I have tried all sports. I’ve tried tennis. Box-ing. Skiing. Water-skiing. And I have absolutely no physical grace at all. I can’t play basketball. I got to the point where I could have a lot of fun playing badminton. But have you ever seen Olympic badminton played? I didn’t really take that up ’til I was 70, and it’s an awesome game. But I really have no physical grace, and probably the only thing that made me go fast is that I finally found some grace in the racing car."

[Winex West Can]

Why don't the US Badminton Association send out a personal invite to PN to attend the US Open or better still, talk to him about being the spokeperson for the sport.

[kwun]

actually, after thinking about it for a little bit. would making a 74 yrs old man the spokesperson of badminton a good idea? the general public will think that the game is for old men and old ladies.

i wonder if he surfs the web or not.... :D

[cooler]

Originally posted by Mag
So now we have both Paul Newman and Leonardo Di Caprio (who allegedly has a private badminton court -- and uses it) that could act as ambassadeurs for the sport... If the IBF had some marketing talent they would have explored this already! :)

Adding this list of famous personalities who play badminton include Diego Maradonna and Nick Faldo.

This quote is from http://users.erols.com/wiker/history.htm

"Badminton is a familiar and well-liked sport in the US, but predominantly is a fun game in the back yard or on the beach. We know that once Americans see the other badminton - international badminton, the world's fastest racket sport - they will want more. The Atlanta Olympics started to raise the sport's profile in the US. The event was a sell-out and became one of the "must-see" sports. Ex-President Jimmy Carter, Chelsea Clinton, Princess Anne and Paul Newman were among the celebrities who came to watch. David Broder of the Washington Post also came. After seeing the men's doubles finals, he reported: "seeing one of the supreme athletic spectacles of my life".