Help: Large group training problems

[JChen99]

Hi guys, I'm helping out at a high school rite now training the senior team. I realize that some of the drills actually involve me doing the drills with them, a pair at a time due to the fact the shuttles have to be returned to certain places for the drill to work. i.e. doubles rotation, movement etc etc.

However, since I'm in charge of the entire team (meaning 14+ kids... not sure cuz so far I only know there's gonna be 7 girls and 7+boys) it would take me quite some time to go through at least 7 pairs teaching them rotation (even if it's just for 10-15 minutes, which I dont think there will be enuff time in a 2 hr practice)

I'm wondering what would the other people be doing at that time? I mean, if i were to send the rest off doing 4-5 other different drills, it wouldn't really work because I need to spend time until each pair is familiar with rotation in order for me to move onto the next pair (even tho for many of them it's their 3rd yr on the team, they've never been taught how to rotate... so it took me a while at the first practice for the girls to get them used to it ><), and I will also lose track of time for the other pairs to switch drills. I dont really get much help because the teachers who are suppose to be in charge DONT REALLY KNOW ANYTHING!!! and one of them actually just wants to play -_-" (and also quite lacking in leadership values just to top it off) so it's even hard for me to keep things in order.

Anyone with previous experiences dealing with this situation... PLEASE HELP!
If you think there's anything that mite help... just post your idea! Anything is better than nothing! Thanks!

[Break-My-String]

A ratio of 1-14+ is pretty tough especially when the adult teacher is lacking in skills and leadership.

What you may need to do is to find who are your top 2 or 3 students. Of the top players, one may be better at net shots, while another is good at clearing. Try to develop multiple stations where they act as feeders/drillers to the lesser skilled players. It is key that you demonstrate/instruct the feeders what they need to do and what the expectations are from the drill.


Simple drill: King of the hill net play. One-on-one
Server stands in the service box, needs to serve "short" of the front service line. Receiver stands in receiver's box. All net play must land within the front service line.
First player to 3 pts is the king, loser to the end of the line. Pending on the calibre of your students, you then need to coach them on contacting the bird early and keeping low to the net.

Hope this helps. ;)

Cheers!

[Sliced Drop]

Don't be in such a hurry!

Seriously, if it's just you and 14+ kids then you will have divide and conquer somehow. You don't have a choice - you have to start somewhere. If it takes 3 sessions to get all the kids to learn the first drill effectively, then so be it.

The key is that the players that aren't being actively coached have to be kept motivated. They need to be reassured that you aren't playing favorites. I'd be tempted to start by only working for a few minutes with each pair - sacrificing (initially) quality of coaching for quantity. It's important that you establish a report with everyone in the group as soon as possible, and that they see that you are treating everyone equally. In later sessions you can then build on the time spent with each pair.
As their skills progress you can actually use the kids to help you coach. Spotting opponents weaknesses is one of the skills of the game and you can use this to good effect. Rather than splitting the group into pairs you could split them into trios and have one person trying to spot the other twos' worst fault. Obviously you'd have to ensure that each trios spotter rotated regularly (eg every 5 minutes). I probably wouldn't do this until most of the players had the basic forehand shots though, and it's probably a good idea that they have a sense of team spirit too so that they don't take their peers observations the wrong way.

Oh, and buy a watch or timer that you can easily set a 10 minute countdown alarm on.

[Joseph]

The stop watch and whistle are your friends. Remember that...I'm not sure what level the team your coaching is, but for us. The coach grabs 3 of us, which makes 4 including him, to demonstrate what we're supposed to do. Then he puts us to work and sees if we're doing it correctly. If your just going to drill with one group at a time, then you should get the others to do some basic drills with each other. Maybe a smashing drill with 4 people: 1 feeder, 1 smasher, 1 defender who drives the shots back, and 1 person at the net to kill off the returns. Or you can just get them to do clear, clear, drop, drop half court. If you want them to do that full court, then just have them rotate every 3 min with one person getting on and the other person getting off.

[JChen99]

Thx for the initial response guys, I guess I've missed a few points about the team, and here are some of the booster points on their condition:

Dilemma #1: Skill Difference

There will be 5 girls and 5 boys that will actively playing while the rest are going to be benches. 4playing doubles and 1 playing singles/mixed. I am easily keep 10 people occupied if their skill level is about the same. Problem is, for the girls, there is a HUGE margine between the skill level of the top 4 and the bottom 3, givin me problems mixing them up and doing drills together. Even within the top 4 girls, there is quite a large difference between the top girl and the other 3...

Dilemma #2: Lack of Time

I was asked by my friend to help coach them. The teachers have to compete for time in gym with other sport teams and are doing quite a $HITTY job at it. It's their first game on tomorrow(17th) and the guys have just finished trying out, meanwhile I gave the girls their first practice EVER on rotation (these are grade 12 girls who have previously ALL been on the team last yr!) They were suppose to have a practice today, but low and behold... GUESS WHAT!? THEY DIDN'T BOOK THE GYM!!

Dilemma #3: Irresponsible Teacher
I CANNOT stress this enough. Basically, information is relayed to me through my friend (who basically leads the team and helps me out) and the teachers either just sit around and just watch or actually borrowing rackets to play... I mean, I know they get better prestige if they help run a sports team... but c'mon...
I dont mind those who dont have experience and is just learning... I mean... at least they're helping keep order by NOT MESSIN IT UP MORE!!!


Sorry... I guess I jus gotta blow off some steam...
ANY OTHER (futher) SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED! :)

[Break-My-String]

Hi JChen99,

A few questions first...

1) Is this correct? You have 7xgirls & 7xboys. Out of each group, one will play sgls & mix-dbls, 2 teams of dbls (A&B), & 2 spares.

2) How about the boys side? Is there are large gap in the skill level?

3) Will any of the dbls-A players be expected to play sgls should your top player become injured or sick? And vice versa, will the top player be expected to play regular dbls?

4) I am confused between your "friend who basically 'leads the team' and helps you out" and the teachers. What are the roles/responsibilities of your friend versus the teachers?

5) Lastly, how many courts do you have access to?

[JChen99]

Hey Break-My-String

Here r some answers:

1) Yes you are correct, except there will not be A&B teams (we can switch them aroudn freely) so each of the doubles team will play 2 two other doubles teams against another school (I believe this is how HS league teams are ran)

2) For the boys side there is not that big a gap but the top 1-2 players are definately better than the rest

3) We can freely move players around and experiment with different combinations. Ultimately the goal is to win as many points as possible (this is a team thing i believe) However, since singles + mixed will only sport 3 points, it is more sensable to put the more able bodied players in doubles instead (which sports 8 points if all MD and WD matches are won)

4) Well I'm assuming when I'm saying this, but he was prolly one of the players in control of the team since the teacher last year didn't really know how to run practices. Unfortunately, they are not able to have a team this yr until there are teacher(s) who are willing to take the time to "take charge" of the team. However, the teachers are of no help. Of the three, one just wants to play (wut's worst is he lacks leadership skills... ai... the qualities of teachers nowadays...) and the other two want to help, but lack the knowledge to (I think it's the first time they've ever ran a team before)

5) I get access to 8+2 courts (8 for sure... not very sure if i'll always get the other 2 tho)

[badrad]

Originally posted by JChen99
Dilemma #3: Irresponsible Teacher
I CANNOT stress this enough. Basically, information is relayed to me through my friend (who basically leads the team and helps me out) and the teachers either just sit around and just watch or actually borrowing rackets to play... I mean, I know they get better prestige if they help run a sports team... but c'mon...
I dont mind those who dont have experience and is just learning... I mean... at least they're helping keep order by NOT MESSIN IT UP MORE!!!

JChen99 - please don't dis the teachers. Regardless of what you think they do or don't do, most teachers do not have to even be there after school. The fact that you may have a bit more skill than them, don't ever make them look foolish or stupid. Most of the teachers that I know who take on the responsiblity as sponsor aren't in it for prestige, they do want to help out the students. They often don't know what to do, that is where you - or your friend - take on the a leadership role, but work in conjunction with the teacher.

If you take on the role of coach, you need to schedule and book the time with the school and with the athetic coordinators. It's not just a simple matter of showing up and acting like a coach for a few hours. There's more to planning, strategy and scheduling. Even driving and taxi service.

[SmashingBird]

Originally posted by badrad
JChen99 - please don't dis the teachers. Regardless of what you think they do or don't do, most teachers do not have to even be there after school. The fact that you may have a bit more skill than them, don't ever make them look foolish or stupid. Most of the teachers that I know who take on the responsiblity as sponsor aren't in it for prestige, they do want to help out the students. They often don't know what to do, that is where you - or your friend - take on the a leadership role, but work in conjunction with the teacher.

If you take on the role of coach, you need to schedule and book the time with the school and with the athetic coordinators. It's not just a simple matter of showing up and acting like a coach for a few hours. There's more to planning, strategy and scheduling. Even driving and taxi service.

I think I will agree on not dissing the teachers because most of them are donating their time to help the kids and provide them a chance to enjoy after school activities. The fact that the sponsors don't even know how to play the sport should give them more credit because they probably don't even know the sport or like the sport at all.

However, I m not sure if the coach(not a staff of the school) has the rights to book the court. Also the driving and taxi service should be the sponsor's duty because according to my knowledge, coaches who aren't part of the staff are not allowed to organized these activities.

[ruth1]

If the other two teachers don't have the skill or knowledge, you can still work with that. You definitely have a lot of court space that you could take advantage of. If the teachers want to help out, maybe one can be there with you while you conduct one drill. Then that teacher will learn from you. He/she will learn what you are doing, and learn from your correcting the kids so he can also see what's right and wrong. The other teacher could toss shuttles, even if he isn't the best hitter. He could stand in the middle and toss drop shots to either corner and the students can work on exploding to the net. He will have to toss correctly, or the drill won't be effective. But I'm sure he can pick up on how low and far to toss it.

Also, use the extra courts! Pair people off and have them play singles or halfcourt singles. You say that you are concentrating on doubles: group them into four and have them play games. Whoever has the most points by the time you finish with your other group, gets to go and do the drill with you. Or (if they're like some people on my team and don't like drills), the loser of the game goes and does drills with you. Hopefully the kids are responsible enough and won't goof off. If they do, make them run laps. Or make them run sprints.

Good luck.

[badrad]

Originally posted by SmashingBird
However, I m not sure if the coach(not a staff of the school) has the rights to book the court. Also the driving and taxi service should be the sponsor's duty because according to my knowledge, coaches who aren't part of the staff are not allowed to organized these activities. What you can or can't do as a coach will depend on your arrangement with the school and athletic directors. Booking the gym time is something you need to work with athletic directors on. At little badrad's school I go to the facilities schedule calendar and put in the dates that I am available. If there are scheduling conflicts I work with the other coaches and teachers to juggle to time and gym space.
Driving students also depends on what you have agreed upon with the school. You will need to sign document, and provide a criminal background check. Each trip that you drive students have to be approved by the school - mainly for liability concerns.
What you are allowed or not depends on your individual arrangement with the school. As you build a longer term relationship with the school, there are things that you can be allowed to do based on trust and mutual understanding.

[JChen99]

Originally posted by badrad
JChen99 - please don't dis the teachers. Regardless of what you think they do or don't do, most teachers do not have to even be there after school. The fact that you may have a bit more skill than them, don't ever make them look foolish or stupid.
Ok, I agree I shouldn't be putting down teachers. I guess it's just like good cops and bad cops... bound to have em around. Also, it's not like I confront them or anything, I just turn a blind eye and continue doing what I'm there to do... coach. Afterall, they're not a part of my responsibility.


Originally posted by SmashingBird
I m not sure if the coach(not a staff of the school) has the rights to book the court. Also the driving and taxi service should be the sponsor's duty because according to my knowledge, coaches who aren't part of the staff are not allowed to organized these activities.
For now that's the case, but I believe that's because rite now it's still very messy and nothing's been organized. I'll try to talk to them about this later today after their first game, but it's hard to because everything has to done HIS WAY or it's NO WAY... I guess at least I get to work on my convincing skills... XD

as for taxi service... I dont think I'll b of any help there... I myself have to bus to their games because it's right after my class... so it's not likely I'll ever get to drive to one of their games


Originally posted by badrad
What you can or can't do as a coach will depend on your arrangement with the school and athletic directors. Booking the gym time is something you need to work with athletic directors on. At little badrad's school I go to the facilities schedule calendar and put in the dates that I am available. If there are scheduling conflicts I work with the other coaches and teachers to juggle to time and gym space.

As you build a longer term relationship with the school, there are things that you can be allowed to do based on trust and mutual understanding.
I guess it's because I'm the first one that's ever went to the school and offered help, so they either dont quite appreciate the help (because they've gone very far with just the club players on the team) or they're also just learning how to deal with things lik this (I hope it's the latter one). Hopefully before the end of this week I'll have things sorted and talked over with the sponsor teachers and will have come to an agreement on things lik court time/practices and anything else that needs to be talked over. I was amazed at how slow they started things off... I mean... not even having ONE practice (For the guys) before the league games just kinda throws me off... I hope it wont be as bad this week

I'll see wut I can pull today... WISH ME LUCK! XD
o and thx guys for your help! very much appreciated!

[Break-My-String]

Hi JChen99,

Dilemma #1

After showing the entire group a particular skill, test each player, and then break them up into two groups based on ability (and not on gender). Let the better-skilled group drill themselves (after you quickly demonstrate plus what your expectations are), in the meanwhile, work with the lesser-skilled group and re-demonstrate the skill so that they can start drilling themselves. Then, go back to the better-group, observe their techniques and correct if needed. As your top players become better skilled, they may assist you as mentioned earlier.


Dilemma #2 & 3

As Badrad said, you or your friend will need to take on a leadership role. The teachers may have absolutely no idea what's involved in sponsoring a team sport. You and your friend will need to create a 4-8 week advance schedule of events, and if needed, an itemized TO-DO-list for the teachers to complete. This may clear up any misunderstanding of responsibilities plus the opportunity to delegate tasks. Initially, you will need to follow-up to make sure things are completed to your specifications, but after awhile the teachers will be familiar with the routine. By you leading the teachers, they will understand what your expectations will be, and they may realize how much more they should have done at the start.

As Ruth1 said, use the teachers to assist you with drills that they can handle:

ex1) Foot work drill (teacher helps as the timer)
Place 8 shuttles on the corner & centre perimeters. Player standing in the center, has one shuttle in his/her handle, goes to the corner/centre exchanges the shuttle, goes back to the center, goes to next corner/centre, etc.

ex2) Service (psychological opponent & points counter)
Students practice serving to the T-zone (create a quarter circle bullseye as a target with point values), have the teacher stand near the front service line to give the students a perceived opponent. You will need to instruct the teacher the basic receiver stance & position and your expectations on how the flight path of the service should be.

ex3) Net shots (hand feeder)
Show the teacher how to hand feed shuttles for net shots.


I got to go... more later. Cheers

[Break-My-String]

Originally posted by JChen99
For the boys side there is not that big a gap but the top 1-2 players are definately better than the rest...

...since singles + mixed will only sport 3 points, it is more sensable to put the more able bodied players in doubles instead (which sports 8 points if all MD and WD matches are won...

Without knowing more about your top 3 boys & 3 girls players, you may be correct.

One thing you may need to think about is, if you had a really strong sgl boys player, he may earn you 2 pts guaranteed, & then it would be a waste to put in a strong girl for sgls. On the other side, if you put weaker players for both sgls, you are giving away 3 pts immediately. It's a tough call, you will need to change the roster with every school you challenge.

Good luck! :)

[dlp]

Coaching a group, especially of varied standard is difficult, in many ways it is easier for better standard players to work in this situation than beginners since most practices involve a level of feeding that beginners cannot do.

A few general points from my experience:

Aim to give value in the session, this means that all players must have the opportunity to get something from the session, but doesn't mean that all players will be targeted at all times. For instance its ok to have a strong player feeding a beginner for a while as long as there is something else in the session of benefit to the strong player.

Be very clear, simple and specific when setting out the practice, when setting up the practice demonstrate with a better player and concentrate on a couple of technical points, if a player can pick up one technical point from a session and truly understand it then that is a good result, don't try to cover every aspect. Little can be done on a one to one basis if you have an hours practice you may speak to each player for 1 min maximum, which is very little time.

Following a warm up it is a good idea to do some movement / physical work at the start since this is relatively easy to get everyone doing and better players can work harder independant of the others standard.

[JChen99]

Originally posted by Break-My-String
Without knowing more about your top 3 boys & 3 girls players, you may be correct.

One thing you may need to think about is, if you had a really strong sgl boys player, he may earn you 2 pts guaranteed, & then it would be a waste to put in a strong girl for sgls. On the other side, if you put weaker players for both sgls, you are giving away 3 pts immediately. It's a tough call, you will need to change the roster with every school you challenge.

Good luck! :)
If you ask who are my top 3 guys, I can only give you a definately answer for top 2, the 3rd 4th and 5th are pretty even in terms of ability.

For the boys singles, I'm already planning into when we do get into provincials(preliminaries not really a concern for the school). I know there are several VERY strong (jr provincial/national players etc etc) guys playing singles, and I do have a relatively strong singles player. However, I just think if it's 2 iffy wins in both singles and doubles, why not make 1 definate winning doubles. As for singles I got someone who has potential in mind (ex jr winner in various B level tournaments) so if he is willing to put in, we still have a very good change of raking in that singles point
Thanks for the input BMS!


Originally posted by dlp
Coaching a group, especially of varied standard is difficult, in many ways it is easier for better standard players to work in this situation than beginners since most practices involve a level of feeding that beginners cannot do.

A few general points from my experience:

Aim to give value in the session, this means that all players must have the opportunity to get something from the session, but doesn't mean that all players will be targeted at all times. For instance its ok to have a strong player feeding a beginner for a while as long as there is something else in the session of benefit to the strong player.

Be very clear, simple and specific when setting out the practice, when setting up the practice demonstrate with a better player and concentrate on a couple of technical points, if a player can pick up one technical point from a session and truly understand it then that is a good result, don't try to cover every aspect. Little can be done on a one to one basis if you have an hours practice you may speak to each player for 1 min maximum, which is very little time.

Following a warm up it is a good idea to do some movement / physical work at the start since this is relatively easy to get everyone doing and better players can work harder independant of the others standard.

thx for the input dlp, I know time is a very big restraint in my situation. Along the way I've learned some group self-sufficient drills (ie I dont have to feed them) and it does work for the guys cuz they're decent in the way they can do every shot (not very well, but during the drills that what they'll improve on) it's just kinda hard to standardize it cuz there's 7 of them, and most of the self-sufficient drills I've picked up are done by 3/court. It would be weird to have one set of guys doing one thing and another set of guys doing another.

Another problem I'm facing right now is that once in provincials, the abilities of the girls become EXTREMELY important(before provincials I can just get the guys to win all their games and it'll be enough, but once in provincials there are several schools I know of who have very strong guys and that will put us to a disadvantage). It seems that I'm lucky because I have best girls in the region (average of the top 5) but it still worries me because I know of better girls (individuals only but if they play their cards correctly I'd be losing anything from 2-4 points on the girl's side) and because of that I've been needing to concentrate on working with the girls.

One thing I'm trying to get them to do is to be able to clear furthur (further than half court clears) because if they can do that then it's easy to push the opponents to the back and force a weak return (typical tactics of HS girls)

As for movement, that's the easiest thing to develop. With various on court running drills + slight pointers when they're running will be sufficient in developing both speed of movement and endurence.

Anyway, we have our second game this tuesday (tomorrow) against my old HS (I think I'll be yelled at by my friends for being a traitor :rolleyes: hopefully I'll survive) and I'll see how that goes... hopefully they'll pickup their second sweep of the season.

Thx guys again for the inputs