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Showing strong representations on all numbers of badminton for the Olympics, China is gearing its players to get higher world rankings. China's players have withdrawn in tournaments citing 'mysterious' injury when it's time for them to play against their compatriots. This no longer appears as a normal situation since it occurs several times since the point rush started last year.

The Olympics is coming soon and badminton players around the world are in a point rush to secure a place in the games. Top ranked players are competing to get higher rankings so they can get better seedings in the draw. China shows a remarkable representation in two dummy lists of players through to the Games.

In both dummy lists that were released on 27 November 2003 and 9 January 2004, China leads the world by sending 13 representatives. All of their eligible players are from the top 16 world rankings. For men's singles, ladies' singles, and mixed doubles, China have three representatives each. While two representatives appear for men's and mixed doubles.

Putting their representatives in the Games is not a problem for China who has been world dominator for this sport. The main issue is how to get their players in the hot spot to secure the gold medal. Players must sit ideally in certain rankings to make sure the draw will spread their compatriots far away in the draw during early rounds.

Badminton power currently spreads rather equally in several countries. Despite China's domination, players around the world--especially big countries like Denmark, Indonesia, Malaysia and Korea--have always been China's biggest competitors. With new emerging powers in badminton like Thailand, Netherlands, England and several other nations in around the globe, it has never been a silky road for Chinese players to win in a tournament.

Yang Wei and Zhang Jiewen were reprimanded and fined by IBF Disciplinary Committee for "not using their best efforts" throughout their match. The match was on 1 August 2003 where they played against compatriot Gao Ling/Huang Sui in the quarter final. Lost in a tight match 11-15, Yang-Zhang encountered the trouble when the Committee raised concern over their easy lost in the second game of 3-15 to let their compatriot breeze through the semifinal.

In Swiss Open 2004 that has just ended, Chinese ladies double pairs seemed to be in competition to get injured. Wei Yili-Zhao Tinting withdrew at the quarter final when they were supposed to play against yang Wei-Zhang Jiewen. Not enough wasting spectators' money, it was Zhang-Yang's turn to withdraw at the final to get 'injured' and let Gao Ling/Huang Sui clinch the title without sweat.

Before the starting of Swiss Open 2004, Zhang/Yang is world's number one, Gao/Huang in third place and Wei/Zhao in fourth. Korea's Ra Kyung Min/Lee Hyo Jung intruded among the Chinese players to claim the second spot. Losing to Zhang/Yang will ensure Gao/Huang's position to be elevated to second position. Rather than being reprimanded and paying thousands of dollars, probably the best way to let your friends win is not to play against them.

Gao/Huang is now getting closer to taking over Ra/Lee's place who gained enough points to keep their place. The same thing applies to Zhang Jiewen/Yang Wei that will sit still on the top despite losing to their compatriot. One or two more tournaments will allow Gao/Huang and Zhang/Yang to sit close to each other.

Whether it is true or not that players suffer from injury, IBF should really conduct an investigation into such ploy. This has not only tormented the sport, but also the sportmanship and efforts of other players. And more importantly upsetting badminton fans who have thought the money they spent on tickets will promise them good show.

deception read.

u got my drift ;) It's almost impossible diagnosis neck, wrist and ankle 'injuries' accurately, hehehe

3. injuries are harder to dispute by official than throwing games on the mat

Ok, let me make myself clear first, personally, I am a little bit sick and tired to read all the articles about "CHN strategy" etc. I agree some of the "mystery" might be invloved with "strategy" or "human" factors, but:

1. Why we only pick on the CHN, especially the WD? More of less, I have to say it involves some sort of "sore loser" feeling from other competitors or organizations. Why? Because they can't win, period. Why don't they pick on other players from other nations?

1.1 Ra: Many times, Ra took "easy" in WD, and focus on XD. As in Swiss Open, Ra got a blown out in WD against CHN, then, went on to win XD. Why no one bring up any questions on this?

1.2 Peter Gade: When he first came back, his condition was terrible. I forgot in which tourny, MS players from Den either lost to him easily or WO. Did anyone raise up any questions?

1.3 Harlim Brothers: Hafiz and Roslin put on a "show", and one went on to the next round. Even themselves and particular teammate said, well, let the one get better chances advances... Did IBF bann them or fine them?

1.4 How u determine how hard a player tried? I mean, if u ask me against Chen Hong, I can say I fight harder than Xia, and I can say I dive on every rally, but I don't think I can get 1 point, or hold on for more than 2 min. Using the result to say Yang/Zhang did not fight "hard enough" is stupid and ridiculous.

1.4.1. Martin, Mia both got 0:11 against Zhang Ning in WC. Mia got another 0:11 against Gong after 1st set of 11:13 in Swiss Open. By Yang/Zhang's case, IBF should bann them right away. But how come I did not see any actions? Just because they are not in CHN???

1.5 True winners should fully anticipate all hard fight, but not complain their opponents getting easier treatment in the previous round. Players like Martin, Susi are not new for fighting through the CHN mighty lady army to capture the title. They are more recongnized as the legend, the true winner, rather than whinners.

2. I have to say, for professional elites, every single one has some injuries, which bothers them every day and night. It's a matter whether they want to give up the current match or not. Most time, they choose to put on a fight. However, if they choose to give up, we will see fans putting on this and that "guess" against them, especially when they give up to a teammate / pair. To the fans, that's cheating. To them, they need a rest. Take the rest when the victory does not mean too much for themselves, or at least, to the whole team.

3. Use a doctor to diagnosis. To me, this is a joke. I know this coach, who's an ex CHN XD player. I told him about our concerns about using doctor notes for injuries. He laughed so much, and told me the following. If IBF really get an expert (for athletes, not for ordinary ppl), he should be able to excuse everyone from the tourny. Why? Everyone has serious injuries, which could be aggrevated in a desperated move. He claimed many players, including himself has serious injuries in the joints, which could be a serious problem in later life. He even claim some ex national players, had to spend rest of their lives on wheel chairs after they retired. I wonder how good an expert will dare to take such responsibility to take a risk and force elites to play, even if the elites claim s/he is not comfortable.

So, put all the whinning aside, let the skill do the talk. The gold medal belongs to the ones work the hardest, but NOT the ones crying the most.

(agree with LB)


If you dont have slight injuries as a professional athlete, you are not trying hard enough. As a professional, dedicated to your sport, you should plan to get to retirement age, then your body fall apart. Only that way can you say has someone tried as hard as they can.

Personally I think Xia could be accused of not trying hard enough at some point in every game. Take the jonassen game in wc, for long periods of the game he looked like he was messing around.

I think if you can allow players to walk through matches easy, then do it, it is in your teams best intrest.

you could argue that as the WD pairs are almost there in there qualifying then they should not need to enter the tournaments, but if they didnt enter, this may mena there opponents have easier qulifying, better make there opponents work and worry about qualification as much as possible.


|In WD it probably is just sour grapes as the top 4 are CHN, and a long way ahead of everyone (even ra/lee)-IMO

Originally posted by tama-aki


This has not only tormented the sport, but also the sportmanship and efforts of other players. And more importantly upsetting badminton fans who have thought the money they spent on tickets will promise them good show.

1. Kept whinning but could not provide any solid evidence (not just, I guess from the the final result... I think they should be better than 3:11....) or whinning about losing the match is not sportmship, either.

2. Effort from other players. If they train harder with better method, they can beat CHN. Ask Susi, Martin (when she's young), Kim/Ra, etc... CHN players are not naturally born as a group of legends.

3. Upsetting badminton fans? I know fans want every set to be deuce, see 5 hrs of hard fight, but that's not the case all the time. U paid $$$, does not mean u will see the "battle of the century" guaranteed.

3.1 If IBF wants to bann, bann Martin, Mia first. As my previous post, they both got 0:11 result in WC and/or Swiss Open. For former champions, don't tell me they are that much away from Zhang or Gong.

3.2 Same as in my previous post, result could not 100% accurate reflect the effort. Gong trashed some poor lady 11:0 in 8 min. What that to say? Bann the other player, she definitely did not even let the fans warm up their seats yet.

To me, $$$ means good show, or "give equal oppotunity" for all players is just whinners talk... I am not using this statement to against any particular individual, but just say, "welcome to the real world..."

After all the "stories", "guess", "fines", "accuse" etc, I find out there no way the CHN WD pairs could be "clean" or "good", why?

1. If they lose easily to others: they suck, they disappoint their fans

2. If they lose to their teammates:

2.1 If they lose "easily" (not even just 1 set or 2 points): TEAM strategy.

2.2 If they lose "hard": Well, u know, they got finned, they just acting...

3. If they win the title: Yeah, yeah, their teammates won before, it's their "turn" to boost up their ranking...

4. If they "WO": You see, even worse this time, we can't get our tickets worth...


Give me a break, what u want these 3, 4 pairs do??? Surely, after every SINGLE tourny, at least 50% will be the targets as the "cheating goat".

I GOT ENOUGH OF THIS!!!

LB, u had highlighted lot of valid points. Seriously, in real life, strategies are used both on and off court, be it in the sport of badminton or court of law. Personally i have no gripe about china (or any other country) shifting their own team around. It their prerogative in my opinion. What i've said before is that these things happen. If I'm rank #5 (a very gigantic big if :p ), all the whining in the world wouldn't get me to the #1 spot.

Good points, LazyBuddy. I am also sick of reading this kind of China dirty tricks and strategies discussion. :o

Great reply LB, I guess we are all maniacs of this forum :-)

Are you from China? LOL :D
The reason I put up the article in here is NOT because I hate chinese players, I have so many idols there--especially Gao Ling.

I mostly agree with Cooler that as much as many reasons are valid, sadly strategies are used both on and off courts. And I am sorry if no one has brought up the issue with non-Chinese players, let us start then to right the wrong. I think it's Chinese players' "privileges" for being in the limelight, because they're mostly world's best.

And you're right, LB, it hasn't been only the Chinese. We noted some others in the past too.

It's really ashamed that I couldn't see the real match of those teams that said they're injured. If you had the chance to see it, maybe you can share with us.

I don't know how IBF should do it, but it's surely a difficult task to verify an athlete's claim that he's injured. Broken bone may be x-rayed, but pull a muscle or strain sometimes not visible (or is it? correct me please if I am wrong, amateur here).

IBF's decision to fine Yang-Zhang was thoroughly discussed and took a while to study the game I think, because the decision to fine them came a few weeks after their press release.

I've seen Yang-Zhang plays and they are really good, can't match Ge Fei-Gu Jun but their spirit is sometimes something that Gao-Huang misses out. Yang-Zhang is similar to Ge Fei-Gu Jun because there's a combination of the calm and the fierce in the team, while Gao-Huang are both fierce :D

I have seen Martin played quite a lot, including her 0-16 record against Susi. Then when she just started, her anger ALWAYS took control of her matches. Nowadays, she's getting better with it but still sometimes it bursts out, I wouldn't be too surprised if she suddenly earns nothing in a set due to her anger, it happens A LOT. It will be fun if IBF probably have a penalty for "lack of anger management in court" :)

Mia? I've seen her playing since she was 16 and she normally would never let go. The only occasion when she let go when she still had personal problem with then-coach dad. Mia and Zhang Ning have a record of 6-5 in their encounters. I am surprised Mia can still win against Zhang Ning in Swiss Open while the last 3 encounters before that were totally one-man show by Zhang.

No, not because Mia wasn't trying too hard, you should see her bending her body and run all over the court. It's just now that Mia has become FAT and she's much shorter than Zhang or any other chinese players like Zhou Mi or Gong Ruina. Mia's wins against Zhang were mostly in the old days starting in 1997 when she was still, well, less fat. You should see how the Chinese players make her run around the court with her short legs. The only thing can save and make her be in her ranking now is her flexibility and the crazy overhead that nobody else can do.

And yes, it's tiring to run around the court. Also Mia had an injury lately where she withdrew from a tournament. Sonny beat Xia because Xia's energy was drawn in the morning too and couldn't cope with the youngster to play another 3-setter. Mia's lost to Gong in the final could probably be a result of tiredness after a tough game against Zhang the day before.

Again, don't take it too personally that it's about Chinese players, it's more highlighting on the issue strategy used. I think your reasons are more than valid, from a different perspective.

Cheers

Originally posted by tama-aki

Gao/Huang is now getting closer to taking over Ra/Lee's place who gained enough points to keep their place. The same thing applies to Zhang Jiewen/Yang Wei that will sit still on the top despite losing to their compatriot. One or two more tournaments will allow Gao/Huang and Zhang/Yang to sit close to each other.


Let's make this clear:

Either Huang/Gao or Yang/Zhang are good enough to be #1 or #2.

1. They might use team strategy, because they are good as a group (aslo if u think Wei/Zhao, Zhang/Zhang, etc also got involved). All these 4 pairs they are capable to trash anyone else and capture the title.

2. It's not team strategy to make them #1-#4, etc. Let's use an obvious example. Say me and my friends get a chance to play this tourny. No matter how good our "team strategy" got developped, or how tricky we could be, skill lvl as in us, will guarantee early exist, but NOT a WO in final.

3. They might gain a little bit advantage, if there's a strategy. But shouldn't we also feel sorry for them back then, when CHN players play no more than 8,9 tournies each yr, while European players easily attend more than a dozen? Is that fair for CHN players for their ranking back then? I did not hear they force IBF to change the ranking regardless it's favorable for them or not.

4. Say there's strategy. Isn't strategy part of the sport?

4.1 Why baminton/tennis/table tennis player try to drag their opponents off balance, and let them run, and try to say as much energy as possible? Is that cheating??? As they should be "man" enough to always over-run their opponents?

4.2 Talking about ticket worth. In NBA games, if a team is leading 30 points in first 3 quaters, last quater is always all rookie+bench garbage time. Should I claim 25% ticket refund, as I did not see my favorite all stars battle each other? In NHL, if a team leade 3+ goals for the last 5 min, both team will get enforcers to knock around on ice. Should I get my 10% ticket value back? In NFL, team with big lead will using running game or even timeout to burn the clock. Maybe I should ask for 50% ticket refund, while I am sitting outside to watch the time out, right? In boxing, there should be 12 rounds. If there's a KO in 2nd round, maybe I should get 90% of my $$$. Why? I even get my seat warmed up yet... Just way too many, I don't want to be ESPN as for now...

Please, as fans, we want exciting match. Maybe sometimes, we should also understand what the coaches and players are suffering from, to really show our support.

tama-aki,

Yeah, I was from CHN. However, I don't think I am that narrow minded, as only cheer for the ppl have similar background. I like badminton as a sport, regardless who take the title. Do u know I just selected Wong CH to take the AE in the contest? hehehehehe...

I am not targeting u, but rather talking about the issues in general. I just say, it's very hard to determine the "effort". As in ur previous reply, u said Mia is good, fight hard, might got her 0:11 because of tireness. Why can't this also apply for Yang/Zhang's 3 points? At least, they got tons of fight in previous rounds, got a tight match in first set. Can't they feel tired or be on an off day? Never have to say, this pair receive a critical serve penalty call in 1st set, which might get some mental issues involved.

Excuse me kepting using myself as example, even though I am clearly nowhere near their lvl. In my club, I sometimes could upset very good players, but also could lose to players way below my lvl. Why? Relatively inconsistent, and stamina could be a key factor as well. If this happens to me, it might happen to everyone, as no one is a robot.

If I ever used any "strong" word, please don't take it personal. hehhehhhhe..... Maybe I should get some "anger control" training. :D

In the world Champs case 2003 I watch the game live, and I believe on e of them was struggling with injury, the other was trying to cover her partners inability to move. If i did have an injury, i wouldnt risk making it worse by trying a little bit, i would probably............retire.....giving the other team a walk over (like last week??)

The strategy being employed is to get Chinese pairs to the number 1 and 2 in the rankings.
The object of this is to get their best pairs in opposite halves of the draw, so that they have the best possible chance of GOLD & SILVER.

If their 1 and 2 pairs end up in the same half, they will probably get gold and bronze.

Mia and Camilla's losses to love in the WC are irrelevent. The losses did not benefit their respective teammates (if any were even left in the tournament at that stage).

When China gives walkover to China, 1 of the Chinese pairs is guaranteed to benefit.
I'm not saying other countries haven't done it.
China is currently so dominant, it has the best ability to use these tactics.
A small part of their dominance comes from their large population pool.

Hahahh don't worry LB, the first thing I'd do will probably be the same if the article was about Indonesian players. :D

I don't take it personally, I like seeing different views. And yes I have to quit some games pretty much lately due to my back injury. I could force it, but that will be a stupid thing to do considering how worse it could get. Also almost thinking of giving up badminton forever, but I will be totally clueless if I do that--what else can I do in life without it.

My back problem is what my doctor called "hypermobility" (I thought this is a good thing!!!) plus the two curves in my spine (scoliosis). When he asked how I played badminton, I showed him some pics of Mia doing her actions. Then he said I shouldn't do that (He should tell that to Mia too).

A bit out of topic, I think IBF somehow misses out on Gao Ling. The ever-smiling girl amazed me on how she would grab two titles in a single tournament and got the energy to do that. Even with Ra/Kim's domination, only Gao Ling and her partner can actually match the unstoppable Korean pair.

Another OOT issue, if I'm not wrong Yang Wei was once paired with Huang Nanyang. Where did the other girl go?

I guess some of us here don't care much about the money people pay to watch the top CHN vs CHN? Strategy aside, as a fan, if I bought a ticket to see a game, I'd like to see both players or pairs play with determination and if possible, to slug it out, be it Russian vs Russian or Thailand vs Thailand.

But as a coach, it's different. They're performance are rated based on successes, not the number of players making it to which round and what tournament.

Team A : 20SF, 20F appearances out of 40, win 5 medals.

Team B : 15SF, 12F appearances out of 40, win 9 medals.

Team B is still considered more successful. A will be considered under achieving for making it so far, yet winning so little.

The saying is true in this context, "You finish first, you are the champion. You finish second, you're nobody".

The question isn't whether China use team orders to affect world rankings, olympic qual and titles but whether anything can be done about it.

Clearly in any major tournament given the competitiveness of all the matches any player receiving an effective bye against a compatriot recevies a massive boost in gaining a days rest while their opponent endures a tough match. When it is the semis or quarters of the WC this clearly affects the outcome.

If players withdraw citing injury to give teammates a higher seeding at olympics this just puts china in stronger position in that the koreans will have to face both either the chinese one or two pair in the semi , while the assumed two chinese pairs in the other semi fix their result. Clearly this gives the koreans no chance and is unfair.

I remember the 92 AE final when zhao gave the match to lui jun, clearly because zhao didn't need the ranking points. When the AE mens singles may be the only televised match in the year on british TV this was terrible for the game.

Chinese players admitted at the wc that they were throwing matches, it was blatant and now they have apparantly moved on feigning injury for similar effect. Chinese domination is bad for the sport.

Originally posted by dlp

Clearly in any major tournament given the competitiveness of all the matches any player receiving an effective bye against a compatriot recevies a massive boost in gaining a days rest while their opponent endures a tough match. When it is the semis or quarters of the WC this clearly affects the outcome.

Chinese players admitted at the wc that they were throwing matches, it was blatant and now they have apparantly moved on feigning injury for similar effect. Chinese domination is bad for the sport.

1. When u look at a tourny, u can't just look at 1 round. Maybe round 4, A has easier task than B, but if u combine round 1 through round 4, u might see A has much tougher tasks than B.

2. There's no " 100% fairness" in sports. A true winner should fully anticipate all tough matches. S/he should be physically and mentally ready for 5 hrs fight every round, and every set to deuce. If s/he gain an easier taks, good. If not, focus on what u r doing, and DO it! Not Complain about others having easier schedule, etc.

3. I don't want to throw out all my non-CHN examples again. If that's the case, I will bring up Ra's case again. How many times she lost WD so easily, then dominate in XD??? Should I claim her 11 XD titles are FAKE? As she "did not give 100% in WD???" Give me a break, please.

4. Chinese domination is bad... Ok, they are not born to be good elites. Every baby has the each chance to be good in badminton. CHN has larger poll in population, and great program in badminton. That's how they are good. Other nations have the equal chance, look at DEN, KOR, MAS, IND, they don't have billions of ppl, but sure another great force. If they can do it, why not other nations? Instead of complain, maybe save the effort about do some real practice???

5. In 92, everyone thought defeat NBA is a dream for 50 yrs. However, just 10 yrs, more than 1 team beat them. They caught up, and greatly close up the gap in between. How? Because they did not just sit, cry and complain about "NBA domination is no good for the sports". Instead, they train harder, and play smarter.

How many times I have to say, "let's stop crying, whinning, but do some real work"???

I agree the other countries need to work harder to catch China, however the use of team tactics means it is even harder to break the monopoly. If Ra did take it easy in a doubles final because she had no chance of winning and still had to play mixed that in no way equates to a China pair giving another pair a walkover to save that pair the effort. In Ra's case the result of the tournament would be unaffected. Noone else would be disadvantaged by this. Even if I did believe that Ra took it easy if she didn't make a good effort she should be punished since again the ticket buying public would have been cheated.

At major events the ws and wd matches are often of no interest, why because its china v china and everyone knows the results are not legitimate. Same even in ms and with 5 ms in top 11 that leaves a lot of room for manipulation.

In the worst case a third pairs ranking could be boosted by allowing them to beat the top pair , thus qualifiying the third pair for olympics or world champs at the expense of a better pair from another country who may have only one chance in their career to qualify.

Finally its not fair on the Chinese team, one of the younger plays was forced to lose at the wc, he may easily never get another shot at the title.

As for withdrawing from an event citing injury, an easy thing for the IBF to do would be to say players withdrawing injured are not allowed to play in any more events for a number of days, let's say 30.
If a person has a serious injury, they won't mind the time off as they will want to recover.

Even then, what do you do in the case of, say, a player picks up a minor injury in one round. Next round they decide to play through it. After game 1 they realise they've got no chance of winning due to the injury. Their choices then are:
1. Continue to play full on, still lose, and risk making the injury worse.
2. Stroll through game 2, losing quickly.
3. Withdraw injured.

If the player would be punished for options 2 or 3, I don't think it's fair to expect them to risk greater injury by haaving to take option 1.

There may not be a fair way to resolve this issue while players play as country rather than as individuals. But badminton worldwide probably can't support a structure where players play as individuals (as tennis does).

I certainly haven't got all the answers.

In F1 you get team orders, and people complain that you don't get to see the best racing. But there you get the individual competition and the constructors competition. (Dunno if that's a useful comparison)

Neil I think your analogy is useful but its more like this:

Ferrari (China) have the fastest cars to start with and get 5 cars at the front of the grid, every other team has only two cars. Ferrari then instruct drivers 2-5 to block / obstruct / crash into the other teams and make no attempt to overtake no.1 driver!!:D

On the theory that China are "looking behind them" and stopping people overtake, I think that is negative, as You usually loose more ground to people by covering them than if you play your normal way and are miles ahead.

I think therfore you should modify your analogy to say that The No.1 (michael schumacher) is covering the oppostion (williams/mclaren/renault), allowing rubens barrichello to win something for once!

Ok, as we are "sentencing" the poor CHN, let me bring the news:

Wong CH lost to Hafiz 3:15, 3:15...

According to many ppl's theory, Wong CH has secured a spot in Olympics, when Hafiz were desperated. So, maybe let's bring MAS to the court this time...

Hahhahahha... Just as we are talking about "dirty CHN", this is a good example to show how others can do something as well...

What others think?

Originally posted by dlp

Ferrari (China) have the fastest cars to start with and get 5 cars at the front of the grid, every other team has only two cars.

What kinda logic is this???

China did not start with tons of elites given by IBF. They secured their ranking by yrs of training and good results from various matches. Other nations have the EQUAL chance to do so, however, either their players are under achieve, or their organization did not have a good program to start with. Whose fault is that? CHN? I don't think so.

Before CHN came into power, the big power houses were MAS, IND, JP, KOR, DEN, ENG, etc. CHN over took them using yrs of hard work. If those nations can maintain their lvl, work hard on their rising stars, they will have good chance to seriously threaten CHN. However, that "hard work" means training, coaching, orgainizing, but not just lay back and complain about "we are far behind, not fair..."

Originally posted by Neil Nicholls
As for withdrawing from an event citing injury, an easy thing for the IBF to do would be to say players withdrawing injured are not allowed to play in any more events for a number of days, let's say 30.


There's no way IBF can issue a rule like this.

A player might just got a bad flu, which barely last for 3 days. What he could do? Play with 41'C of fever? Or, being punished for 30 days, and miss 2-3 important torunies???

It's up to the other countries to get their players through to the final stages.

I don't seem to see many complaints about men's doubles, mixed doubles, women's singles.:)

People like to criticise success. China is an obvious target because of its greater resources and CURRENT ability.

And China's approach is working for it men's singles and men's doubles i.e. hire the right coach. Shouldn't BFer's look a it this way?

Indonesia dominated in the mid 90's. Their '96 Thomas Cup team was incredible.

I think there should be an investigaton into the WCH match, I didn't see it so can't comment. I have however witnessed China players throwing games in ms, ws and wd over the years at AE. I am in no way anti China, I simply want the best players to win, and the best Chinese players to win.

In womens singles and doubles the chinese start an event with 3/4 pairs capable of beating anyone, the other countries may have one challenger betwen them. (i.e. Ra in wd or camilla in ws). They then use their players to facilitate an easy draw for their designated winner or to ensure in the next event they have the highest possible seeding across all their players, again to allow them to control the draw.

Originally posted by LazyBuddy
Ok, as we are "sentencing" the poor CHN, let me bring the news:

Wong CH lost to Hafiz 3:15, 3:15...

According to many ppl's theory, Wong CH has secured a spot in Olympics, when Hafiz were desperated. So, maybe let's bring MAS to the court this time...

Hahhahahha... Just as we are talking about "dirty CHN", this is a good example to show how others can do something as well...

What others think?

You gave lots of reasons for why Chinese players can seem to give way to other Chinese players (and I agree with some of your points). Then you see an example of the same thing happening for players in other countries, and you immediately point the finger there and jump to conclusions and say that other people do it as well. Aren't you just confessing everything that you have vehemently denied?

As an overseas Chinese, I am a supporter of the Chinese team as well (after my home country). I know that these tactics exists everywhere. It is just more apparent in the Chinese team because they are dominant and there are more chances of them clashing with each other especially in the later rounds. These sort of things happen everywhere. No point denying it and pointing fingers everywhere. If a team has the luxury to do things like this, then I say they have the right to do it. It is up to other teams to deny others the luxury. Don't whine.

Originally posted by hcyong
You gave lots of reasons for why Chinese players can seem to give way to other Chinese players (and I agree with some of your points). Then you see an example of the same thing happening for players in other countries, and you immediately point the finger there and jump to conclusions and say that other people do it as well. Aren't you just confessing everything that you have vehemently denied?

As an overseas Chinese, I am a supporter of the Chinese team as well (after my home country). I know that these tactics exists everywhere. It is just more apparent in the Chinese team because they are dominant and there are more chances of them clashing with each other especially in the later rounds. These sort of things happen everywhere. No point denying it and pointing fingers everywhere. If a team has the luxury to do things like this, then I say they have the right to do it. It is up to other teams to deny others the luxury. Don't whine.

Easy easy...

In all my previous posts, I did not confess or denying anything. Why? Because i don't know if those are just guesses or truth. The truth is only known by the players and coaches themselves. Us as fans, we just guess and try to provide some logical conclusions.

I brought up WCH's case, not because I want to confess or deny anything. I just say, similar issues happen everywhere. Whether case A or case B or both or neither is the truth, is NOT important in my point of view. My point is not which player did or not, it's "Why CHN always got picked, but other players did not get picked, even though similar issues are right in the front."

For me, I don't want to pont fingers unless there's actual proof. That's why, I did not say WCH really did soemthing or not. Like I said, I don't want to deny or confess, unless I know the sure answer. I bring this up, more like in a way of joking (as WCH is my favorite MS), to show others, "Don't just think CHN is the only one"

I can understand, with their superior record, CHN has the most chance to be the "target".

Originally posted by Cheung
Indonesia dominated in the mid 90's. Their '96 Thomas Cup team was incredible.

I don't quite remember Indonesia fixing matches back then... ;)

Originally posted by dlp
I think there should be an investigaton into the WCH match, I didn't see it so can't comment.

Well, I think the biggest investigation should go to Kim/Ha match against their juniors Yim/Kim, 6-15 6-15?

Yeah, but can't really tell about Choong Hann. Being a left-hander he's always hard to predict, even the result. Many players have defeated him, but when it comes to Taufik Hidayat or other types of players, he would definitely win.

I am still kind of waiting for Indonesian players to let their compatriots through, but Flandy/Eng just didn't want to give it up to Candra/Halim when they need the point the most at Swiss Open. They're so stingy :D

Originally posted by tama-aki
Well, I think the biggest investigation should go to Kim/Ha match against their juniors Yim/Kim, 6-15 6-15?


Yes, I think Kim/Ha gave this match away for two reasons :

1. to ensure Yim/Kim stay in the world top 16 and that Korea can have three pairs in the Olympics (Kim/Ha will qualify anyway)
2. Kim/Ha wanted to avoid risking another defeat against Hian/Limpele which would give the Indos an important psychological advantage!

Of course, I might be wrong somehow...

In the China Open, Ha/Kim beat Kim/Yim 17-14 15-8.

If Kim/Ra lose to Kim/Lee in the XD final, that'll be even more evidence.

Originally posted by Neil Nicholls
In the China Open, Ha/Kim beat Kim/Yim 17-14 15-8.

If Kim/Ra lose to Kim/Lee in the XD final, that'll be even more evidence.

There is not a necessity to which Kim/Ra will lose intentionally because Kim/Lee ranked 3.
I think ranking2 and ranking3 are same. Both ranking2 and ranking3 will meet semi-final.

I agree seven's opinion.
Yim/Kim didn't have good record previous tournaments. There is a danger where the ranking will fall.
Kim/Ha gave this match to ensure Yim/Kim stay in the world top 16 and to have three pairs in the Olympics. I believe!! Why?
In that match, Yim/Kim lead Kim/Ha 9:0 in 5minites. I couldn't believe.@@

really guys wut the chinese r doing isnt really considered cheating, its well think of it as a loop- hole. however seems to me dat if it were another country doing dis, the issue would have prolly not arise

but u guys can jus ignore my comments as it is my opinion only

Originally posted by dlp

Chinese players admitted at the wc that they were throwing matches, it was blatant and now they have apparantly moved on feigning injury for similar effect. Chinese domination is bad for the sport.

I have read many times on this site that Chinese domination of badminton is "bad for the sport." I've never really understood this, and I think we should be careful in applying this generalization. In the end, dominance of any type raises the quality of competitors, which I believe should be considered beneficial. Without a clear leader(s), the field runs the risk of being plagued by stasis. If, however, one wishes to make the argument that "match fixing" is bad for the sport, then the flow of logic becomes quite clear and generally accepted.

The best (and ultimately only) way to prevent manipulation of rankings by anybody in any sport, is to beat them. Simply, to be able to choose when to lose, one must be able to choose when to win. By taking away this ability, there is no longer anything to complain about.

Originally posted by jeicegreen
There is not a necessity to which Kim/Ra will lose intentionally because Kim/Lee ranked 3.
I think ranking2 and ranking3 are same. Both ranking2 and ranking3 will meet semi-final.


But if Kim/Lee ranking drop to 4 wouldn't they be in the same half as Kim/Ra ?
So best to get them as many points as possible.

Originally posted by coupii
Chinese domination of badminton is "bad for the sport."

This is exactly the reason I was all fired up back then.

To me, a sport should be about skill (at least, mainly). If ur skill is good, ur on the top. If not as good, and want to be on the top in the future, using ur arms, legs and brains, but not just mouth.

The logic is, u need to be good, in order to be "dominate", but not "dominate" first, in order to cheat to be good. Therefore, 99%, the crown is given to the ones with the hardest work and finest skill, but not the ones shouted and cried the most.

Like I stated many times, US NBA dream team totally dominated basketball in 92. That's the real domination, as they beat everyone by average by 30+ points. Is that bad for the sports, as no one will practice any more? No, in fact, many nations train harder, improved their programs, and 10 yrs later, more than one of them beat NBA dream team, and closed the gap.

As the example above, and we used to joke basketball / football players are bully players. However, if they can shut up and train, and achieve, why can't the badminton community do the same? CHN caught up with ENG, DEN, INA, MAS, JPN in late 70s and earlier 80's. If they can do it, other nations should have the same chance. It's just a matter of how hard ppl want to WORK, but not just TALK.

Originally posted by LazyBuddy

... CHN caught up with ENG, DEN, INA, MAS, JPN in late 70s and earlier 80's. If they can do it, other nations should have the same chance. It's just a matter of how hard ppl want to WORK, but not just TALK.

Very well LB, excellent arguments. But I am afraid that whatever you say still people continue to complain instead of looking at ways to produce players able to face the Chinese ladies.

Not sure if the above is referring to China badminton level. China in fact already produced top players during the 60's (Tang Xianfu, Hou Jiachang, Chen Yuninang, etc) and had been unbeatable. In early 80's they were able to join IBF and therefore able to participate in IBF sanctioned tournaments. :)

The all chinese womens singles final today was truly dreadful and Zhou Mi made little effort at the end. We were robbed of a womens doubles final due to chinese team decisions.

We are reaching the point where the mens tour could break away and noone would really care what happened to the womens events.

And you think that the chinese domination is not bad for the game?

Originally posted by dlp
The all chinese womens singles final today was truly dreadful and Zhou Mi made little effort at the end. We were robbed of a womens doubles final due to chinese team decisions.

We are reaching the point where the mens tour could break away and noone would really care what happened to the womens events.

And you think that the chinese domination is not bad for the game?

And the question still remains - why this happenned? Indonesia, Korea and Denmark had strong ladies players. And now Chinese ladies players are to blame because they beat everybody. Are you saying China is guilty of working too hard developing new players while others stagnated?

UK used to have players disputing ladies doubles finals (ie Nora Perry and Jane Webster) and winning trophies. Now we can't see UK ladies disputing the finals. You should question your country's development system and not complaining China being too strong in ladies events.

OK guys,

We have two issues here:
- China's domination
- "Tactics"

What we're discussing in here initially about the tactics deployed by China that are--whether you like it or not--is rather visible by most of us. Zang/Yang has been playing so well both in Swiss Open and All England BEFORE the finals, suddenly they just withdraw due to injury.

Quite amazed me if they had the injury at the Swiss Open which is only about 3 days away from All England, how could they play and reach the final again in All England. They even played well in the semi beating Wei/Zhao easily in two sets. Did they always get injury at the eve of finals? Is it a curse to the Chinese ladies doubles?

Here's some FAQ to get things str8 in my opinion:

China's domination bad for badminton? I don't know. We're talking about tricks, not the domination. The trick is bad for sure! To me a country's domination isn't bad, just boring especially when they don't even play when they are supposed to.

Other countries doing tricks? YES, as badminton fans, we know the world's players so damn good--honestly. It's hard to believe that Kim/Ha lost easily in two sets to their juniors and Wong Choon Hann's easy defeat to injury-stricken Hafiz in early round of All England is another area subject to questions.

Why are we only questioning China? Well, because recently only China did it at the Swiss Open and this issue arises along with the Olympics point accumulation that has been going on for a while. Now that the other suspects have appeared in All England, let's brought them up too.

But China's my country, there's no way they do such a thing Accept it, other countries may do it too, why not China? If it happened to my country, yes so what? The wrongs need to be righted.

China's doing hardwork to develop the squad, we don't whine but work hard. No doubt on that, two thumbs up and that's why we even make chinese players our idols. BUT we're talking about the rather fishy withdrawal and suspected tactic deployment to reach the Olympics.

It's OK to deploy such tactic, it's normal in sports. I respect your point of view but to me it sucks and doesn't show sportsmanship. If Gao/Huang or Gade or any other player wants to get into the Olympics and get a good seeding, then WORK HARD in the real battle, NOT just TRAIN hard.

I think your comment and thoughts are very rude. Lighten up dude, be open minded and learn to respect others' opinions. :D

Originally posted by dlp
We were robbed of a womens doubles final due to chinese team decisions.


I hate to say, but I feel this statement is very ridiculous.

If we need to blame, blame other nations did not work hard enough, be skillful enough to be close to the CHN ladies. It's like, if everyone in a class only get 60s, but only 1 person get 100, should we blame the ones getting 100 like "why the hell u always 'A's all the exams, and make us look bad???"

Come on, give me a break. I surely enjoyed a lot of good games between CHN vs non-CHN players, like back then, we had Susi, Martin (young), etc. Seriously, if other naitons can produce great legends back then, why can't they do now?

If u want to proof u r good, be a man, challenge the current champ on court. Giving statement like "oh, damn, not my fault, those a$$.... are just way too good" is simply a loser statement to me.

Do I need to throw out the Dream Team vs the world case again??? If they can do it, why can't badminton?

Originally posted by tama-aki
OK guys,

We have two issues here:
- China's domination
- "Tactics"



The two issues could not be separated.

Like I stated in my previous post(s), the sequence is:

Train hard ---> Good skill ---> More player have good skill ---> Dominate ----> Possile "tricks" to maintain dominance

So, such "tricks" exist, and exist in every single system, in every nation. However, to make it to be effective, u need to work on ur OWN skill, and be good as a GROUP first.

For a country to dominate there's a bit more to it.

1 Population size
2 what percentage of the population play the sport
3 what structure exists within the country to allow players to progress
4 quality and availability of coaches
5 quality and availability of opposition
6 government support
7 how many players are willing to put the rest of their life on hold to train hard and become the best

etc.

Originally posted by Neil Nicholls
For a country to dominate there's a bit more to it.

1 Population size
2 what percentage of the population play the sport
3 what structure exists within the country to allow players to progress
4 quality and availability of coaches
5 quality and availability of opposition
6 government support
7 how many players are willing to put the rest of their life on hold to train hard and become the best

etc.

Agreed, and China win on most of those counts of qauntative nature, and arguably on the other qualatitative ones.

Originally posted by Neil Nicholls
For a country to dominate there's a bit more to it.

1 Population size
2 what percentage of the population play the sport
3 what structure exists within the country to allow players to progress
4 quality and availability of coaches
5 quality and availability of opposition
6 government support
7 how many players are willing to put the rest of their life on hold to train hard and become the best


I agree the above list state some good "extra" factors might effect a sport.

However, I still consider "personal" issues are way more important than the ones listed above.

For Example: In China, soccer is considered as the most popular sport, however, the men's team is still having great trouble to be considered as a "power". Soccer in China surely get "Yeah" in #1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7. And #4 is greatly improved during the past decade or so. However, the progress is still slow.

If Robertson/Emms had drawn Archer /Kellogg in the AE and allowed them to win or withdrawn through "injury" because Archer needed the ranking points I would be complaining to the baofe, I would rather see the best pairs prosper than three English pairs qualify.

This is not about China, it is about match fixing.

The chinese are in a unique position to abuse the system in the womens games due to the admitted uncompetitive nature of the other countries. We applaud the chinese women for their dedication , skill and fitness but we appalled at paying money to watch finals and semis that are uncompetitive, fixed or cancelled through fake injury.

I am a huge fan of Lin Dan. Lin Dan was forced to lose to Xia after losing the first end at the WC. Now it may be that he could have won that title, and having won the AE he would already be shaping up as an all time great. Xia on the other hand would be even further down the rankings without that WC win and perhaps wouldn't make the olympics in place of Bao or Chen.

Yes, but It may have also made Lin Dan stronger to lose first set to Xia. He knows everyone will get chance to win, If they are good enough, This time was Xias Time, he was only !9-20 that time, he will have many more chances to win, and will be on other end of this side, when he is 26.

What goes around comes around.

Originally posted by dlp

The chinese are in a unique position to abuse the system in the womens games due to the admitted uncompetitive nature of the other countries. We applaud the chinese women for their dedication , skill and fitness but we appalled at paying money to watch finals and semis that are uncompetitive, fixed or cancelled through fake injury.


1. Ok, match fixing is a problem. Then, what about the "uncompetitive nature of other countries"??? If everyone is in the same skill lvl, I think the so-call match fixing will be greatly reduced automatically.

2. Paying does NOT mean u always must get the best game. In any sports, there are strategies for "not playing hard enough" for various reasons. I have listed them many times:

2.1 Basketball: Rest all-stars if leading by 30 pts, why? Why risk ur all stars and tire them out for meaningless garbage time?

2.2 Hockey: Similar as basketball.

2.3 Football: Using running games or even "time outs" to burn the clock. Why? Don't want to risk to turn the ball over, or let the opponents to score. But I paid... Why I pay to watch the time outs? Well, part of the game, respect it.

2.4 Soccer: Similar as 2.1, 2.2. Also, sometimes, coach issues defensive strategy (everyone pull back to defend the goal) in order to keep the lead. Why not be man enough to do some high flying offense and make more goals? Well, u tell me if u r the coach...

So, if we feel like a 1st round 3 hrs deuce of "great upset" could be a steal for the $$$, why we complain about a relatively non-competitive final?

Still remember Vince Carter once said, after he was questioned about "not playing hard" (because he did a lay up instead of dunk!!!). He said, "yeah, I got paid for millions of $$$... I know fans come to see my dunk... However, I AM A HUMAN BEING! If I am injuried, I got to have NEW PLAN, to protect my own interets..."

Originally posted by dlp
Xia on the other hand would be even further down the rankings without that WC win and perhaps wouldn't make the olympics in place of Bao or Chen.

We should show all respect to Xia as he fought so hard to win the WC. If he's not injuried, he should be in much better shape and have much better ranking. If an elite fought all the way to win a title, it wins my respect already, regardless this yr's schedule / draw is in his favorite or not.

No offense for Peter Gade fans (as I am one of them myself). Peter Gade used to hold #1 for quite a while, but at that time, most of CHN elites participated in significant less events then him (8,9 vs 12?). Should we say, P.G. is not one of the best player, but just some "lucky" one?

A counter example could be Xie XF. According to her record, she might be better than Mia, Martin, Wang Chen, etc. However, she often ranked behind them? Why? CHN have 4 mighty lady, and each one have to sacrifice signifcant amount of ranking points in team events. For her own skill, XXF can surely play Olympic if she's not in CHN. And most likely, she would be a no-brainer if she joins another team. However, teh cruel fate is, she's very possibly will be left out in 2004.

So, sometimes, life might no be 100% fair. Want to be a true winner? Keep working hard.

Originally posted by dlp
This is not about China, it is about match fixing.

The chinese are in a unique position to abuse the system in the womens games due to the admitted uncompetitive nature of the other countries. We applaud the chinese women for their dedication , skill and fitness but we appalled at paying money to watch finals and semis that are uncompetitive, fixed or cancelled through fake injury.


If China wins a gold, a silver and a bronze in each of the ladies' events (which we all know they very well can), are we going to say
a) they are just so good.
b) they fix matches to manipulate the rankings, that's why they can do it.

Originally posted by dlp
If Robertson/Emms had drawn Archer /Kellogg in the AE and allowed them to win or withdrawn through "injury" because Archer needed the ranking points I would be complaining to the baofe, I would rather see the best pairs prosper than three English pairs qualify.

This is not about China, it is about match fixing.

The chinese are in a unique position to abuse the system in the womens games due to the admitted uncompetitive nature of the other countries. We applaud the chinese women for their dedication , skill and fitness but we appalled at paying money to watch finals and semis that are uncompetitive, fixed or cancelled through fake injury.

I am a huge fan of Lin Dan. Lin Dan was forced to lose to Xia after losing the first end at the WC. Now it may be that he could have won that title, and having won the AE he would already be shaping up as an all time great. Xia on the other hand would be even further down the rankings without that WC win and perhaps wouldn't make the olympics in place of Bao or Chen.

DLP,
If I remember correctly you are a coach and involved in higher level development players. I don't know how in your country works. Do you get a salary from a club or government and the players come to practice for free? When I say free this includes coaching, racquets, stringing, shuttles, accomodation, meals, doctors, physiotherapists, training facilities, travelling expenses, etc. If Robertson/Emms and Archer /Kellogg did not pay a single penny from their first day for playing badminton then I fully back your reasoning.

I can also understand the frustration of paying the tickets and denied the spectacle. Again my question, who allowed this to happen? Are the Chinese ladies to blame that they are beating everybody and getting into the semi-finals and finals? I may agree with you this is no good, but if you are a coach working in the youth development area, you may also have your share of guilt for allowing this to happen. ;) :)

We have to ask ourselves whether badminton is a team sport or individual sport. I think the whole argument boils down to this. In all respects, except for the team events, badminton is an individual sport. Players play for their own name. People will remember Yang Yang or Morten Frost more for their selves than from where they come from. Legends are individuals, not nations.

But yet, where will badminton be without the national associations? Who partners Tan Fook with Wan Wah? Who broke up Chandra and Sigit despite their protests? Who determines that Xia will skip this tournament and enter another? Face it, in the international arena, badminton is very much a team effort. If China A plays against China B, will both rest their players if China A is going to play Indonesia A next? You bet. Don't even try to deny it.

So then, badminton at the highest level, is both a team and individual sport. Like tennis, players gun for personal glory. Like F1, even Michael Schumacher has to swallow team orders.

dlp posted:

"The all chinese womens singles final today was truly dreadful and Zhou Mi made little effort at the end. We were robbed of a womens doubles final due to chinese team decisions.

We are reaching the point where the mens tour could break away and noone would really care what happened to the womens events.

And you think that the chinese domination is not bad for the game?"


dlp,

Were you at the NIA for the All-England Finals?

Did you see Zhou Mi took a huge back-support off her back right before packing up her racket bag after the match? I did (anyone else?) and felt so sorry for her that she had to against her teammate the world No.1! I had/have my back injured while playing badminton about a year ago so I have empathy for her. I consider I was so lucky to be there to watch the Womens Singles Final! 4 Finals instead of 3! I assume you had no idea about her Injury. So you no need to be so hard on Zhou Mi and perhaps the others too.

By the way, my seat was about 15 metres away from Lin Dan (next player’s stand-by area near the stringer’s corner) while he was doing amazing squash racket swings and the most unusual warm-ups and stretches I have ever seen! I was so busy trying to watch the X Doubles of Kim/Ra and Lin Dan’s warm-up tips at the same time! - Seeing is believing!!

ken

Hey Ken,

So what exactly was he doing for his warm-ups:D?

Originally posted by Ken
By the way, my seat was about 15 metres away from Lin Dan (next player’s stand-by area near the stringer’s corner) while he was doing amazing squash racket swings and the most unusual warm-ups and stretches I have ever seen! I was so busy trying to watch the X Doubles of Kim/Ra and Lin Dan’s warm-up tips at the same time! - Seeing is believing!!

ken

If there are genuine injuries then that is fair enough, but clearly this is not always the case when we see withdrawals, poor matches.

Of course England players would receive subsidy in terms of lottery grants/ funded training. However to go from a junior to a top player in this country requires the parents to spend thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours. This is why many of the England juniors/seniors come from relatively rich backgrounds. Certainly as an England player training full time from the age of 16 to 26 for instance I doubt the rewards less personal costs would match likely income from normal work unless you were Nathan Robertson or Archer. Personally as a coach I have given hundreds of hours for free, there is little reward in badminton!

I certainly would not expect England players to be prepared to give up personal success for the "team". International badminton is fundamentally an individual sport, although perhaps that is more a european perspective.

I dont think you can really compare the England squad to the China squad.

China may have over 100 players in their national squad, who are all fulltime professionals, who live, eat, and work together day in day out, and if they are to improve, they must help each other, and that creates a team feel.

At province stage they are professional also, and may have similar numbers.

I dont really know what it is like in the england squad training, but I know we dont have a fraction of that number of people, only maybe 5-8 are full time professionals, others have other Jobs, and may not train everyday. Maybe someone can enlighten us on this? they dont train all in the same place, as they are split up between milton keynes, bristol, and loughborough. I think all these factors will make it more an individual sport for them. They will feel more Isolated, and so driven by personal goals, tather than team goals. If this is the case, if that one person loses sight of the goal, then it fails, in a team goal is in place, then there is, arguably a greater chance of success.


also Zhou Mi also had a back support when playing Zhang Ning, whom she beat in three, so it cannot have been affecting her that much.

Originally posted by dlp
If there are genuine injuries then that is fair enough, but clearly this is not always the case when we see withdrawals, poor matches.

Of course England players would receive subsidy in terms of lottery grants/ funded training. However to go from a junior to a top player in this country requires the parents to spend thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours. This is why many of the England juniors/seniors come from relatively rich backgrounds. Certainly as an England player training full time from the age of 16 to 26 for instance I doubt the rewards less personal costs would match likely income from normal work unless you were Nathan Robertson or Archer. Personally as a coach I have given hundreds of hours for free, there is little reward in badminton!

I certainly would not expect England players to be prepared to give up personal success for the "team". International badminton is fundamentally an individual sport, although perhaps that is more a european perspective.

1. How to determine a genuine injury? Sure, sprain ankle, broke bones could be easily determined right at time. However, if a sore knee just kinda bothers me the past several days, and I know I have an old injury at the same spot, it will surely bothers me. If a player kinda worry about such injury, s/he has full rights to WO, without put his/her career on risk. Remember Grant Hill from NBA? He forced himself to stay in playoff and limping off court. What's the result? His career is about done right after. What a shame...

2. Dlp, 2 thumbs up for your great contribution to badminton community!!!

3. Individual vs group:

3.1 Most western nations, the atheletes have to pay for his/her own fees for all the training. Not only badminton, as other sports like tennis, golf, gymnastics, figure skating, fencing, etc. Therefore, they have more "freedom" to determine their own fate on big stage. Why? They paid for themselve, they play for themselves, and they take the results, either good or bad.

3.2 A lot of asian nations, the pros are consider as a career by a lot of ppl. They don't pay nothing for all the training, equipment, facility, etc, and they got paid with decent salary to play, for the team and the nation. Therefore, on top of their own honor, they have their duty to repay the group as well. Without the group, they could never get a chance to be good, and no way to survive.

Originally posted by hcyong
In all respects, except for the team events, badminton is an individual sport. Players play for their own name. People will remember Yang Yang or Morten Frost more for their selves than from where they come from. Legends are individuals, not nations.



Can't agree.

Yeah, the players are on their own when they play/compete. However, this is only might be 1% of their process. Each player might participate in 20 events each yr, but the rest 300+ days, they are training, living. As most asian nations, they train, live together, and all paid by the nation.

Li Yongbo, Tian Bingyi, Yangyang, Zhao Jianhua, Gong Zhichao, Sun Jun, Ge Fei, Gu Jun, etc might have different playing styles, have different achivements, being "the one" at different time period. However, one thing in common, they were raised and trained by the nation, but not on themselve. They were given the oppotunity, while team up with their talent and hard work to be the legend. Without the group, they could just be nobody as of today.

CHN has 100+ elites in their national squard, and we might just know 20+ names. The rest, training hard, but don't have the chance to shine, never to say be a legend. Some of them managed to play for other nations or orgnizations, and suddenly became a star, or at least, local hero, such as Wang Chen, Pi Hongyan, Yao Jie, etc.

Therefore, to them, group is the necessary factor in their success, and sometimes, u need to sacrifice individual to re-pay the group. It's more like, sometimes, parents might not be perfectly right all time, however, as long as they are not against the law or intent to hurt anyone, we might should let it go.

100% agree with LB.

If 100+ in squad, we only know 20, the rest may be the best in other countries, but they sacrifice themselves for the good of there nation, even though they may be as good as top players, they are just for sparring/training with.

For Them it is about the team, and nationl pride,when lin dan wins, part of his joy is theirs, as they collectilvey made him, in a way.

Originally posted by dlp
If there are genuine injuries then that is fair enough, but clearly this is not always the case when we see withdrawals, poor matches.

Of course England players would receive subsidy in terms of lottery grants/ funded training. However to go from a junior to a top player in this country requires the parents to spend thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours. This is why many of the England juniors/seniors come from relatively rich backgrounds. Certainly as an England player training full time from the age of 16 to 26 for instance I doubt the rewards less personal costs would match likely income from normal work unless you were Nathan Robertson or Archer. Personally as a coach I have given hundreds of hours for free, there is little reward in badminton!

I certainly would not expect England players to be prepared to give up personal success for the "team". International badminton is fundamentally an individual sport, although perhaps that is more a european perspective.

There you go. There's is a fundamental difference between players from 'Western' and 'Eastern' worlds and I believe you are quite aware of it. But suspicions of match fixing is not new. First time I heard was when Rudy Hartono won the World Championship in Indonesia. Heard a lecturer saying about professional competition - roughly translating 'Until the athlete is completly FREE (financially, politically, etc) don't think we will be able to see a true competition'. :confused:

I agree with you that there is little financial reward in badminton. I say financial as there is not much financial gain from it. But on the other side it really makes you happy when one or more of your kids make it to the select team or at least found an healthy hobby than wandering around the streets. Likewise I coached also for free for many years and lately felt really happy to see one of the kids' name in a recent international competition. To me this is already good enough.

Originally posted by viver
Likewise I coached also for free for many years and lately felt really happy to see one of the kids' name in a recent international competition. To me this is already good enough.

2 thumbs up for u, viver. Great job!!!

Li Yongbo speaking on the womens doubles withdrawal at AE

"This year is the Olympics so we have to participate in this tournament, but in the third round my players lost a lot of energy. In the final our players will be together. We have to have the best result at the Olympics, so we don't need to play each other."

Originally posted by dlp
Li Yongbo speaking on the womens doubles withdrawal at AE

"This year is the Olympics so we have to participate in this tournament, but in the third round my players lost a lot of energy. In the final our players will be together. We have to have the best result at the Olympics, so we don't need to play each other."

Is this from the news?

Even yeah, I don't see a problem. Save ur players' energy, when the outcome is already set. Like in my NBA example, rest ur all stars, let them take a rest, when ur team is leading by 30 points.

Originally posted by dlp
Li Yongbo speaking on the womens doubles withdrawal at AE

"This year is the Olympics so we have to participate in this tournament, but in the third round my players lost a lot of energy. In the final our players will be together. We have to have the best result at the Olympics, so we don't need to play each other."

i thought not playing against each other was to prevent injuries. I think training for the olympic will cost lot of energy too. Give me a week of relaxation in hawaii i will be fully recharge. :)

Originally posted by cooler
i thought not playing against each other was to prevent injuries. I think training for the olympic will cost lot of energy too. Give me a week of relaxation in hawaii i will be fully recharge. :)

Actually funnily enough there was a study done on AFL players (and admittedly it's different since it's a full contact sport), but they found ideally players need 10 days to recover properly. Also they are on the field for about 2 hours each game.

There have definately been times when really pushing myself that I've needed more than a week to recover from some activities ...

Originally posted by viver
... Likewise I coached also for free for many years and lately felt really happy to see one of the kids' name in a recent international competition. To me this is already good enough.

Viver! :)

I strongly believe you should have an adults training session at RBC (Richmond Badminton Club)! hehehe :D
I'm sure adults wouldn't mind paying to compensate you for your time and efforts. I'd sign up for that in a flash! ;) :D. I was so disappointed last year when I found out that RBC's training was restricted to youths :(. To be a teen again! heheh :).

Originally posted by dlp
Li Yongbo speaking on the womens doubles withdrawal at AE

"This year is the Olympics so we have to participate in this tournament, but in the third round my players lost a lot of energy. In the final our players will be together. We have to have the best result at the Olympics, so we don't need to play each other."

OK, it's all set then....it's somehow fixed :D

Originally posted by hcyong We have to ask ourselves whether badminton is a team sport or individual sport. I think the whole argument boils down to this. In all respects, except for the team events, badminton is an individual sport. Players play for their own name. People will remember Yang Yang or Morten Frost more for their selves than from where they come from. Legends are individuals, not nations.

But yet, where will badminton be without the national associations? Who partners Tan Fook with Wan Wah? Who broke up Chandra and Sigit despite their protests? Who determines that Xia will skip this tournament and enter another? Face it, in the international arena, badminton is very much a team effort. If China A plays against China B, will both rest their players if China A is going to play Indonesia A next? You bet. Don't even try to deny it.

So then, badminton at the highest level, is both a team and individual sport. Like tennis, players gun for personal glory. Like F1, even Michael Schumacher has to swallow team orders.

Remarkable observation, I remember when I was still living in Singapore, most people there speak this way. I always can't digest it though, I have never been smart enough to find the real moral of the story. :D

Anyhoo, is badminton an individual or team sport?
-look at the event. If it's regular grand prix tours and the like, then it's individual. If it's categorised as team events like Thomas/Uber or Sudirman Cup, then yes it is a team event.

It IS common to apply strategy in in team event where the coach will fix the line up of players to yield a better result against the other team. This is STRATEGY.

When it comes to individual events like World Championship or Swiss Open etc, then players need to play at their best as athletes. All other dirty works? leave them to other professions--athletes' duty is to play their best in sports honouring sportsmanship.

I think it's completely misleading to use nationalism, team bounding as an excuse to annihilate sportsmanship. Just because athletes are friends, train, live, sleep, eat and do other things together, doesn't mean they can ignore sportmanship and competition among them.

When Flandy/Eng met Chandra/Halim in Swiss Open--Chandra/Halim needs points the most to be eligible for Olympics--Flandy/Eng didn't give a damn. In my words, they would say,"Screw you, work your own a** if you want to qualify for Olympics," and so Flandy/Eng trashed the pair very quickly.

Flandy/Eng is pretty much safe to go to Olympics even if they had lost to Chandra/Halim in that event. Chandra/Halim on the other hand need point so badly just to qualify.

Yes, they live daily lives together, train together and do other things within the surroundings of Indonesian Badminton Association (PBSI).

Aki

Originally posted by tama-aki
OK, it's all set then....it's somehow fixed :D

...
I think it's completely misleading to use nationalism, team bounding as an excuse to annihilate sportsmanship. Just because athletes are friends, train, live, sleep, eat and do other things together, doesn't mean they can ignore sportmanship and competition among them.

...
Aki

Sportmanship to my understanding is that financial gains are not included. In some countries athletes train by themselves. I remember a Portuguese runner, Carlos Lopes who won a gold medal in one Olympic marathon (or was it 10 000 m race?) was working in a bank. He trained before and after his work hours. Grants and subsidies came after he won the medals.

We see badminton as an individual sport. Is it really? I believe every country federations/associations has its players ranked. One thing I remember was Hermawan Susanto a player from Indonesia. He wanted to participate in a tournament but was not selected by Indonesian badminton association. Even though he was willing to pay all the tournament expenses by himself, he still needed the Indonesian badminton association's approval in order to go. Tell me, if badminton is an individual event, why would you need your country's association approval? An invitation would be enough for you to go.

Another issue has been pointed in previous post - funding. Who funds the development and support the athletes? Most badminton powerhouses are supported by government funding. Without it you possibly will not see strong China, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc teams out there. Correct me if I am wrong, Singapore is also building a strong team for the future and government is also much involved with fundings. Whoever makes an investment would like to reapt the benefits.

Right or wrong I won't tell you. Often in life we have to reach compromise solutions. As an ardent badminton fan, what matters to me is being able to watch players execute the skills so excellently during the games.

Originally posted by timeless
Viver! :)

I strongly believe you should have an adults training session at RBC (Richmond Badminton Club)! hehehe :D
I'm sure adults wouldn't mind paying to compensate you for your time and efforts. I'd sign up for that in a flash! ;) :D. I was so disappointed last year when I found out that RBC's training was restricted to youths :(. To be a teen again! heheh :).

Timeless,
RCB did have adult sessions in the past. I did it 2 years ago. Honestly it was too much pressure to be there in time as it took me almost 45 mins from my home to the gym - rush hours to Richmond you know.

I don't think you need my help. You are a very good player and I am not sure if I could beat you in a singles game. In doubles it wouldn't be a problem because I could always blame my partner for losing the game! :D :D :cool:

I see that you have quite a different understandings. Let me get some backing-up from a dictionary (sounds like a debating event hahahhahahah):
Sportsmanship:
"Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing"

Originally posted by viver
Sportmanship to my understanding is that financial gains are not included.


I think what you mean here is the amateur and professional sport division in the old days. In the past only amateur athletes (true athletes that don't get money for competition) are qualified for Olympics. Many athletes were ripped off their Olympic medals after getting caught getting involved in commercial sports (such as wrestling in a bar that win USD 2000 as prize).

Originally posted by viver
We see badminton as an individual sport. Is it really? I believe every country federations/associations has its players ranked. One thing I remember was Hermawan Susanto a player from Indonesia.

It's not the sport that is individual or team, it is the TOURNAMENT that's categorised as individual and team.

What you mean in here is probably professional sports and non-pro sports.

Badminton is NOT a professional sport like, for example tennis. In tennis, anyone can go into an individual tournament carrying only his/her name, but not country. When Martina Hingis plays and win a grand slam tournament, then she's carrying her own name, and collect all the prize for herself.

Same thing goes to the event, if it's a team tournament like Davis Cup, then it is not an individual tournament and the group fights for the nation.

Originally posted by viver
Another issue has been pointed in previous post - funding. Who funds the development and support the athletes? Correct me if I am wrong, Singapore is also building a strong team for the future and government is also much involved with fundings. Whoever makes an investment would like to reapt the benefits.

This is also the difference for pro and non-pro sports. In pro sport, players survive on their own, choose their own coaches, get the prize for themselves, pay the coach themselves etc.

Badminton--good or bad, I don't know--is not such a sport. Although there has been attempts by players to take such move--like Ellen Angelina, another Indonesian player who decided to hire own coach and pay for her tournaments, but still can't go for tournaments because IBF only accepts application from official member organisations (i.e. countries' badminton associations). Indonesian Association can't send Ellen because they have their own players wanting to get the same chance in the training camp.

Singapore have potential players--Kendrick Lee the World Junior Champion, for example. But like other countries, renumeration as (badminton) athletes is not appealing enough to make it a profession.

Plus, the culture in Singapore (and probably almost everywhere) is that athlete is not a yielding profession and just an "extra curricular" activities. World class athletes that Singapore has (e.g. the sailors, pencak silat, etc) are always concerned that their parents will get angry if they don't do well in school.

One sailor needed to travel back and forth from Singapore to another country during the Asian Games in between important games just to catch an examination--something that a school can at least give another solution than distracting a hero fighting for his country. The fact is, the school doesn't even think such sport tournament as being important.

The newly-built Sports School in Singapore mainly assesses students with higher exam results than their talent in sports. Several kids with remarkable talents in sports were rejected due to their less fortunate results in mathematics or English language. I thought it's a sports school(?)

Originally posted by viver
Right or wrong I won't tell you. Often in life we have to reach compromise solutions. As an ardent badminton fan, what matters to me is being able to watch players execute the skills so excellently during the games.

Will never argue about that, we want the best show and we want a true warrior and survivor.

This remind me of reality tv show "Survivor" which I think is nothing but a scam. Initially I thought this show is about people trying to survive in nature and whoever can conquer the nature, he'll win. The fact is they'ra not surviving against nature, they're surviving against politics in the team--which I think is pretty much like a soap opera, but with very bad amateur actors/actresses.

When you expect to see badminton matches, you're more than likely to expect a winner who fight for his title. Not the one that play politics, soap opera and the like. There are other people doing such work, let athletes be distinct.

Originally posted by viver
Timeless,
RCB did have adult sessions in the past. I did it 2 years ago. Honestly it was too much pressure to be there in time as it took me almost 45 mins from my home to the gym - rush hours to Richmond you know.

I don't think you need my help. You are a very good player and I am not sure if I could beat you in a singles game. In doubles it wouldn't be a problem because I could always blame my partner for losing the game! :D :D :cool:

Darn, looks like I'm 2 years too late then! :( :p :)

Viver, you flatter me far too much, but thank you for the pep talk :). There is so much room for improvement in my game. I see areas that I'm lacking in every time I play. In fact, the more I play, the more changes and improvements I realize need to be made. The endless quest is rather daunting at times. You know as well as I, that all players require training in order to improve, regardless of their current skill. And a good trainer/coach, such as yourself, not only has the skills, but also the analytical mind to realize all the obstacles players face, and come up with ways to overcome them. Well, if you ever come back to coaching then let me know! ;) :D

Please drop into VRC sometime soon to visit us again :).

Originally posted by tama-aki
I see that you have quite a different understandings. Let me get some backing-up from a dictionary (sounds like a debating event hahahhahahah):
Sportsmanship:
"Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing"



I think what you mean here is the amateur and professional sport division in the old days. In the past only amateur athletes (true athletes that don't get money for competition) are qualified for Olympics. Many athletes were ripped off their Olympic medals after getting caught getting involved in commercial sports (such as wrestling in a bar that win USD 2000 as prize).



It's not the sport that is individual or team, it is the TOURNAMENT that's categorised as individual and team.

What you mean in here is probably professional sports and non-pro sports.

Badminton is NOT a professional sport like, for example tennis. In tennis, anyone can go into an individual tournament carrying only his/her name, but not country. When Martina Hingis plays and win a grand slam tournament, then she's carrying her own name, and collect all the prize for herself.

Same thing goes to the event, if it's a team tournament like Davis Cup, then it is not an individual tournament and the group fights for the nation.



This is also the difference for pro and non-pro sports. In pro sport, players survive on their own, choose their own coaches, get the prize for themselves, pay the coach themselves etc.

Badminton--good or bad, I don't know--is not such a sport. Although there has been attempts by players to take such move--like Ellen Angelina, another Indonesian player who decided to hire own coach and pay for her tournaments, but still can't go for tournaments because IBF only accepts application from official member organisations (i.e. countries' badminton associations). Indonesian Association can't send Ellen because they have their own players wanting to get the same chance in the training camp.

Singapore have potential players--Kendrick Lee the World Junior Champion, for example. But like other countries, renumeration as (badminton) athletes is not appealing enough to make it a profession.

Plus, the culture in Singapore (and probably almost everywhere) is that athlete is not a yielding profession and just an "extra curricular" activities. World class athletes that Singapore has (e.g. the sailors, pencak silat, etc) are always concerned that their parents will get angry if they don't do well in school.

One sailor needed to travel back and forth from Singapore to another country during the Asian Games in between important games just to catch an examination--something that a school can at least give another solution than distracting a hero fighting for his country. The fact is, the school doesn't even think such sport tournament as being important.

The newly-built Sports School in Singapore mainly assesses students with higher exam results than their talent in sports. Several kids with remarkable talents in sports were rejected due to their less fortunate results in mathematics or English language. I thought it's a sports school(?)



Will never argue about that, we want the best show and we want a true warrior and survivor.

This remind me of reality tv show "Survivor" which I think is nothing but a scam. Initially I thought this show is about people trying to survive in nature and whoever can conquer the nature, he'll win. The fact is they'ra not surviving against nature, they're surviving against politics in the team--which I think is pretty much like a soap opera, but with very bad amateur actors/actresses.

When you expect to see badminton matches, you're more than likely to expect a winner who fight for his title. Not the one that play politics, soap opera and the like. There are other people doing such work, let athletes be distinct.

Really I think we have different opinions. If you consider sportmanship only the conduct when on court that's fine. I thought it also involved your daily conduct, towards yourself, how you view your quest to achieve the 'perfection', how is your conduct towards your fellow colleagues, towards competitions, competitors, etc. To achieve this you need to decide what is your path and can only do so properly if you are FREE - morally speaking. :o

On tournaments, well I see your point. Still you acknowledge that IBF do not treat tournaments as individual tournaments. Invitations are addressed to the athlete's affiliated organization - which will send the players they choose, and not necessarily the best ones. In other words, the players that participate the tournament represent their own country, they were selected by the association/federation who viewed them the best with ability to bring back the trophies - not necessarily the player ranked 1st in the country. In the past many China national games winners never had the chance to represent China in international tournaments. I would say there's no individual tournaments in badminton.

Originally posted by timeless
Darn, looks like I'm 2 years too late then! :( :p :)

Viver, you flatter me far too much, but thank you for the pep talk :). There is so much room for improvement in my game. I see areas that I'm lacking in every time I play. In fact, the more I play, the more changes and improvements I realize need to be made. The endless quest is rather daunting at times. You know as well as I, that all players require training in order to improve, regardless of their current skill. And a good trainer/coach, such as yourself, not only has the skills, but also the analytical mind to realize all the obstacles players face, and come up with ways to overcome them. Well, if you ever come back to coaching then let me know! ;) :D

Please drop into VRC sometime soon to visit us again :).

Timeless, I don't think you missed much. Most of the people there were not your level. Most of them were around 50, with the exception of my wife of course. ;) She did not play badminton before and not interested in the drop-in sessions - you never know what kind of opponents you will be facing.

All of us need improvements, even the 'perfect' player. But I really think you are a very good player - physically very strong, good legs strength, fast arms, good reaction and above all very intelligent in your play. I enjoyed playing with you.

I really like to visit VRC again and play with you guys again. Let's see when you are available and fits my schedule - you know I am not the owner of my time anymore.

tama aki,

Personally, I don't think anyone can survive in the world without knowing how to deal politics (regulations, rulez, laws, relationship, etc), no matter it favorites ur side or not.

Yeah, it might be bad, might be too conservatitive, might be corrupted sometimes, might be far away from being perfect, which results in many gray areas, etc...
However, the world is never as "ideal" as many ppl think it could be. Why? Hard to explain, and we all more or less understand, sometimes, we have to sacrifies some our own interests here or there.

Sometimes, a good thing to me or you (say, watching all "real" games, which lasted 5 hrs each set, and all going to 17:16), might be a nightmare to others (say, players and cocahes, or even the hosts). So, there never will be a perfect solution for everyone, as always, one side will complain being treated as secondary.

Originally posted by LazyBuddy
tama aki,

Personally, I don't think anyone can survive in the world without knowing how to deal politics (regulations, rulez, laws, relationship, etc), no matter it favorites ur side or not.

I didn't try to address the whole world issue, but is it very political to just ask an athlete to play and do his honour job as an athlete? What's so political about playing in a match with your best effort? Do you think it's an extremely ideal request if we ask an athlete to play a real game?

If we were to ask the politician to have a fairplay in the election or any other example that's difficult to control, then I guess it's very difficult.


Sometimes, a good thing to me or you (say, watching all "real" games, which lasted 5 hrs each set, and all going to 17:16), might be a nightmare to others (say, players and cocahes, or even the hosts). So, there never will be a perfect solution for everyone, as always, one side will complain being treated as secondary.

Sorry, my brain is having a very hard time trying to decrypt the message, but I can't seem to understand this last part. Are you trying to say that it's not a good solution to ask them to play good game?

Who/what's being secondary?

This is what I have in mind, let me know if it's too ideal:
spectators/fans: wants a good game definitely
hosts: wants good effort/game from all players, so spectator won't get upset, quality of tournament doesn't decrease, etc
players: wants himself to do their best so they can beat his opponent
coach: wants his player to do his best so the amount of time training isn't wasted.

So if Lin Dan's playing a good long game against some other good player and lasted for hours, do you think Lin Dan or the other player is being disbenefited or secondary? I really need some help in here in making my brain read the message :D

Originally posted by viver
... I really like to visit VRC again and play with you guys again. Let's see when you are available and fits my schedule - you know I am not the owner of my time anymore.

When ever is good for you, I'll make myself available for that night! ;) :) So just let us know and we'll be there. I'm trying to make more time for badminton lately so I'll most likely be available on any given night.

Originally posted by tama-aki
I didn't try to address the whole world issue, but is it very political to just ask an athlete to play and do his honour job as an athlete? What's so political about playing in a match with your best effort? Do you think it's an extremely ideal request if we ask an athlete to play a real game?

If we were to ask the politician to have a fairplay in the election or any other example that's difficult to control, then I guess it's very difficult.



I do not believe we are living in an ideal world. Social/political issues are always associated with sports whether you like it or not. :(

Originally posted by timeless
When ever is good for you, I'll make myself available for that night! ;) :) So just let us know and we'll be there. I'm trying to make more time for badminton lately so I'll most likely be available on any given night.

Timeless,

Thanks. I'll PM you when I have a night free. :)

First of all, I'm surprised there is so much debate about whether China (or any other country) pulls matches against team-mates. I thought most people understood that they did, even if the team officials have to deny it because of IBF policy.

I'm not Chinese but I play in a team where the other 5 players are all Chinese and they say the same thing. Our captain once told me about an article he read in a Chinese paper where the head coach (Li?) said if his two strongest pairs met each other in a semi-final, he would not allow them to wear each other out with a tough match when the other semi-finalist might have had an easy game. Given that the finals are played the very next day, and semi-finals can often be played late at night, it makes a lot of sense. Plus, badminton is not like professional sports such as tennis, where the individual victory is the most important thing. National pride is much more important and players want to win for their country. So it is more like a team sport and no-one ever complains about team tactics in other team sports.

The real problem is the IBF's silly rule about players having to use their best efforts in all games. How are you going to force players to try hard if they don't want to? Yang/Zhang at the All England last year didn't try very hard, but it was wrong for the IBF to fine them. We went to the All England and got passes to the players' area and saw Yang/Zhang and Gao/Huang as they came off after the match. They spent about 10 minutes chatting and stretching in the warm-down area. Neither Yang nor Zhang looked disappointed or injured. The four of them were joking around and laughing a lot.

I want to see good matches like everyone else, but I accept these will come from matches between players of different countries. I'm not going to complain or begrudge anyone if two teams from the same country don't try their best.

Originally posted by tama-aki
I didn't try to address the whole world issue, but is it very political to just ask an athlete to play and do his honour job as an athlete? What's so political about playing in a match with your best effort? Do you think it's an extremely ideal request if we ask an athlete to play a real game?

Who/what's being secondary?

This is what I have in mind, let me know if it's too ideal:
spectators/fans: wants a good game definitely
hosts: wants good effort/game from all players, so spectator won't get upset, quality of tournament doesn't decrease, etc
players: wants himself to do their best so they can beat his opponent
coach: wants his player to do his best so the amount of time training isn't wasted.



1. If a player only needs to play 1 game, then take several days off right after, then, there's a much better chance they will fight to their bones.
1.1 However, the current situation is: very tight schedule. Many players have to play 2 games within 24 hrs of span, if s/he participate in 2 events (WD and XD for Ra, Gao), that might be even worse. Therefore, many ppl have to play smart, and know when to save some necessary stamina.
1.2 For other sports like tennis, soccer, basketball, etc. You very seldom see players playing 2 games per day, and 2 big events are just 10 days apart.

2. I do think ur assumption is way too ideal. ;)

2.1 For players and coaches, they do want to show their best, but not "waste" toward their teammates. It does not make any sense to them, if 1 player advanced after half deadly tortured by his teammate, then, lose the gold to other nations.
2.2 The host might be disappointed if an earlier round match is not an intensive match. However, he might be even more disappointed, if the earlier round is intensive, but the final is a no-name black horse killing a half dead champion candidate.

3. Who is secondary? Could be anyone. Why? Ppl always can find excuses here and there, when they lost. I had a post earlier in this thread "Poor CHN WD", and I stated various complains ppl made to CHN WD, in almost all possible outcomes.

4. Do the "real job". Yeah, all the elites did do the real job for 95% of the time. With slim chances, they will meet their teammates. They might be a little bit layback, as there's no need to kill each other. I think somehow, we over looked 1 or 2 "layback semi-final". That 1 or 2 matches compare to tons of matches and yrs of hard training within an elites' career, is generally nothing.

well, there were some rumours about chinese team fix match their games several years back then. now is an open secret. remember sydney bronze medalist ye zhaoying? at sydney's game, three chinese players and camille martin reached to semi-finals. martin defeated the other chinese player and reached the final. the other match was between ye zhaoying and xxxx(sorry forgot her name). ye had always had good records with xxxx, but her record with martin was not good. and ye was famously known for her weak mentality, especially when she performed under pressure. and martin was a strong player and a great mentality. on the other hand, xxxx had a good record with martin. so of course, it was decided that ye zhaoying had to lose to xxxx, so xxxx will emerge to the final and win the gold for china. this "rumour" was confirmed by the gov't of ye's province. the gov't said that they'll let ye win the national title to make up for that fix match. but a national title cannot compare to an olympic gold. to this date, ye said her biggest regret of her life is not getting an olympic gold medal. however, if it was not a fix match, ye would have won the semi-final, but she would probably lose to martin in the final.

also, about lin dan and xia's fix match. lin dan wasnt too happy at that time. he complained about the fix match, and said he was told about a hour before the match that he had to lose one set. the article also said one pair of chinese Wd had to lose one set too. (i didnt really understand about that "have to lose one set". the article kept talking about lose one set, i was a little confused.)

Gong Zhichao. yes, it was controversial...

ye had always had good records with xxxx, but her record with martin was not good.

the gov't said that they'll let ye win the national title to make up for that fix match. but a national title cannot compare to an olympic gold. to this date, ye said her biggest regret of her life is not getting an olympic gold medal. however, if it was not a fix match, ye would have won the semi-final, but she would probably lose to martin in the final.



1. Actually, Ye's record against CM is not too bad, but just not as impressive as Gong Zhichao.

2. Sure, a national title might not be as good as the Olympics. However, what about losing both??? Overall, a team wants to secure the gold with the best chance as possible. If all CHN ladies play 3 sets and always fight to deuce to kill each other, then, I can claim that CM has a much easier schedule, as her earlier round oppoennts are not anywhere near the "CHN internal matches". Sports is not about all 100% fairness, it's about the chance, the strategy, and sometimes, the luck.

Sports is not about all 100% fairness

It is suppposed to be a fair contest.

WHile I totally disapprove of china tactics predominance in other events can lead to things: example three kenyan runners can control the pace at the front of a race to ensure their guy wins, the only answer is to get more competition.

In the case of the womens events I think the total lack of unpredictably and competitiveness (especially now with only Mia to compete) means that the spectators have little interest, as such the events should be downgraded and the prize money reduced further, simple market forces.

the problem with china is that it and all its athletes are 'under one roof' so there is very little individualism going on in there. because all china players are a 'single entity', so all outcomes must be for the greater benefit of the entity. just like all the examples stated in this thread.

players from other nations however do not seem practice this. everyone is their own man and if you meet a fellow country man both of them still have to slog it out.

clearly china is benefiting from this. and the fact that they are getting a way with it most of the time. how is ibf going to solve this? ban china?.... i dont think so.

hmmm

i remember rueben had to give way to schumacher (F1 2002?) so that ferrari could take no 1 driver.... shows that this problem isnt just in china and badminton :D

This thread still generating interest http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/images/smilies/eek.gif

DLP, I only see the example you given on the runners similar to the issue in badminton. I consider running an individual event and not a team event. Running up front to wear out your opponent so your team mate wins is no different from badminton players allowing the team mate with more chances to beat the opponent to pass to next round.

Formula 1 is similar. People were upset that Barichello allowed Schumacher to win by slowing down on the finish line. There was an uproar and F1 said they were going to clean it up. After that Barichello was not as fast as before. If my memory does not betray me, I remember the late Ayrton Senna mentioning that the engineers have ways to slow down his car in case he did not allow his team mate to close on him during the races. We'd like to think the competition was fair don't we?

I don't know why pick only China for these tactics. To my knowledge most badminton powerhouses do it.