Diving: Coached or not?

[Matt Ross]

Been thinking about this for a while. Compare diving for a second...

European: Anyone see Marting Lungaard Hansen dive? Pretty good, put however he lands flat on the floor recovery time not so quick.

Asian: Shuttle connected with, hand then land on ground and the back end swings round. Ables to push up alot quicker (eg Wong Coong Han, Xia Xianze, Lin Dan)

So my question is, do you think that diving is coached, even possibly as a small percentage of training, in Asia?

[Dill]

That's a difficult one because I've never heard a coach saying anything about diving they're all too busy teaching footwork :p

Good point though, maybee in Asia they've just got better divers, then again explain David Ginola?

[ants]

Well in my point of view , if you become a professional for a long time , it sort of like an instinct when it comes to diving. And automatically you are aware and knows how to recover fast. maybe we should foward this question to JR and Laybourn.

[Matt Ross]

JR is good at it, but with the Asians, it seems fluent? The landing, swift movement of the legs coming round, then back up to feet, it seems almost routine.

[ants]

I think it comes from the trainning method where you do pumping and then jump up to do jumping jacks..and then go back down on the floor pumping...

[William86_98]

I think...if you are well trained, and you are mentally as well as physically attached to the shuttle, it will be natural for you to dive when u see that you need to in order to reach the shuttle. As for the recovery, the better you are physically, then the faster you recover. Keep in mind, most of the Asian players are quicker than the European players, which could be the reason why they recover faster.

[kwun]

yes, but only when all the all footwork fundamentals and advanced have been mastered.

[wilfredlgf]

Good point though, maybee in Asia they've just got better divers, then again explain David Ginola?
Is it a coincidence that footie-diving demigod Jurgen Klinsmann was at Spurs the same time when Ginola switch from Tyneside for London?

Personally, I don't dive but do a lot of desperate lunges and never end up flat on the floor because I think recovery is will very much be screwed, not even in doubles.

[Brave_Turtle]

Well in my point of view , if you become a professional for a long time , it sort of like an instinct when it comes to diving. And automatically you are aware and knows how to recover fast. maybe we should foward this question to JR and Laybourn.

I also think its instinct

[jamesd20]

I think the asian players you mentioned were also condiderably younger than Luungaard hansen (33?) even wongand Xia are seven years younger than him. Age affects athletic ability, especially flexibility and speed. Also european tend not to be as agile and flexible than asians.

They may do however I cant believe li yong bo would set up a routine where they were feeding shuttles to the players and telling them to dive to get to the shuttle. remember diving represents footwork problem, i is not a footwork technique.

[Matt Ross]

If your on one side of the court, and your opponent plays a step smash not even years of footwork routine will manage you to get the shuttle back, so diving is the solution. I wouldnt say it resembles bad footwork in the slightest...it does when the shuttle is only a couple of feet away.

[Tomsk]

As someone who is considered an expert at diving (at least in my club anyway ;) ) you have to consider where a person is diving to.

A dive straight ahead means a hard flat landing that is difficult to get up from.

A dive to the side usually means a landing on the side of the body. From this position it is easier to tuck your leg(s) up and push up off the floor. Also a dive to the side will quite often allow the player to land on their back shoulder area and from this continue to roll onto one's feet.

That's what I do anyway.

[LazyBuddy]

As someone who is considered an expert at diving (at least in my club anyway ;) ) you have to consider where a person is diving to.

A dive straight ahead means a hard flat landing that is difficult to get up from.

A dive to the side usually means a landing on the side of the body. From this position it is easier to tuck your leg(s) up and push up off the floor. Also a dive to the side will quite often allow the player to land on their back shoulder area and from this continue to roll onto one's feet.

That's what I do anyway.

Can't agree more than this. ;)

[carlol]

maybe its the asian physique.... built to be springy and light, for kung-fu style moves.

The same way we asians have a harder time bulking up like most caucasians can build muscles.

[timeless]

I wouldn't be surprised if badminton players and coaches learn diving from volleyball players/coaches and then apply it to badminton. Volleyball players have the smoothest, most efficient dives, and their recovery is also very quick.

[jamesd20]

If your on one side of the court, and your opponent plays a step smash not even years of footwork routine will manage you to get the shuttle back, so diving is the solution.

IMHO diving isnt the solution here, the solution is to play a stroke which enables you to recover to move to the centre so you can regain the footwork pattern.

BTW:

If your opponent is able to hit a steep smash, then that must infer that the shuttle is high (in order to get the angle). If the shuttle was high, then surely you wouldnt be (with correct footwork) at one corner of the court when you opponent strikes the shuttle.

[Matt Ross]

Internationals are so deceptive now days who knows what corner they will hit in to. Sometimes is not a matter of playing the right shot, its a matter of diving the shot back. Most returns from a steep smash is to the play the shuttle back to the net. If you are guessing incorrectly, there is no option but to die. There is another uption, but that is to lose the point.

[jamesd20]

My point ws not about deception or any other than basic principles. If you have the ability to recover to the middle before your opponent plays the shot, there is no need to dive. If you are positioned correctly in singles the maximum distance you have to travel is about 2.5 -3m. In doubles it is even less. There should be no need to dive moving that distance, from a stationary balanced position.

If you want tolook at the international point of view if you look at the occasions the players do dive, it correlates to when they are
1.out of position
and
2.unbalanced
before recieving the oponents stroke. I am not going to discuss the causes of these reasons, but footwork, the quality, efficiency and speed of it is a big factor. If you can make the movement to the shuttle, play the correct stroke and move to thecorrect position before th opponent plays the stroke, then there will be no need to dive.

personally, I would think it would not be the case that you are taught to dive, however as you should be going to IBA soon and attend the LIBA sessions, ask the top coaches there if they teach it, and were they taught it when they were learning. Or ask JR/TL in the professioanls players forum..........then come back and tell us the result!! and how to learn it. :) :)

[Matt Ross]

James...i should be a master when i come back, because i'll be falling on the floor dying of exhaustion and then getting up quick to carry on!! :D

[Loh]

Yes, theoretically speaking if you have good footwork and good strokes, you shouldn't be diving!

But if world number one, Lin Dan, and others have been seen so many times making dives to save points, it means that no matter how good you are, you will be caught on the wrong foot at times. ;) And diving as a last resort does help to salvage an almost hopeless situation for Lin Dan and others. Had they tried to do it the conventional way, most likely they would have failed! :D

Whilst diving may not be included in a player's official training programme, it is certainly not a taboo for him to practise this on his own. And the fluency that Lin Dan has demonstrated time and again in this department appears to support the believe that he must have trained as hard as those famous English goalkeepers. As an Asian, Lin Dan has the advantage of not only better dexterity and coordination but also a lighter body weight. Maybe these help him to perform dives better than others.

So, irrespective of what others may say, having the ability of an agile and deceptive dive in your badminton armoury may be a necessary 'evil'. Not only does its pays, it is often a delight to the spectators and you will be well rewarded by applause, applause, applause ... :D :D :D

I'm sure LB will agree. ;)

[JRMTL]

In my opinion, diving is necessary when you are unbalanced. Then, why a player is unbalanced? Deception by the opponent or lack of recovery of the last shot.

Is diving can be learnt? I guess so as goalkeepers in football. But, would I teach that instead of shots (knowing that we have not much practice time)? IMO, no.

JRMTL

[stumblingfeet]

I remember hearing someone talk about how diving can be used to get some rest. Here's how it works:
1- when facing a difficult/hopeless shot (e.g. smash to kill), dive for the bird and smear sweat on the floor.
2- now that there is sweat on the floor, a short break will be taken to wipe off floor ->> rest!

[Loh]

I remember hearing someone talk about how diving can be used to get some rest. Here's how it works:
1- when facing a difficult/hopeless shot (e.g. smash to kill), dive for the bird and smear sweat on the floor.
2- now that there is sweat on the floor, a short break will be taken to wipe off floor ->> rest!

Of course, that's another piece of 'professional foul' and in badminton this is another form of delaying tactic.

But what happens when you sustain an injury as a result of diving - you sprained your limbs or worse still, broke one of them? Then you can take a longer rest, even months! :D

[SystemicAnomaly]

I wouldn't be surprised if badminton players and coaches learn diving from volleyball players/coaches and then apply it to badminton. Volleyball players have the smoothest, most efficient dives, and their recovery is also very quick.

I never had much formal training with either (badminton) footwork or with diving. I had picked up diving from playing a lot of volleball. Volleyball coaches I had taught a lunge-sprawl technique but were reluctant to teach actual all-out dives for fear of student injuries. I learned most of my diving techniques from watching collegiate & Olympic volleyball. One day, i just found myself doing real dives rather than sprawls. Dives were not something I ever really practiced; it's just something that I found myself doing more and more when need arose.

I believe that many athletic ppl pick up techniques like diving in a similar manner. Learning by imitation... the way that young kids learn how to walk, speak, etc. I think that talented athletes don't lose this ability to learn visually or kinetically from repeated viewing of role models (rather than from instruction).

Since my badminton footwork was less-than ideal when I 1st started playing & competing, I resorted to my volleyball diving techniques quite a bit. As I picked up better footwork by watching other players, the need for diving diminished... but it still comes in quite handy for emergency situations.

By employing the dive judiciously, I've found that I will actually win a pretty decent %-age of rallies this way. I'm not as quick as I used to be (I'm way over the hill now) in getting up after a dive these days so I use it in doubles a bit more than in singles. With doubles, I've got a partner to take the next shot if I can't get up in time to get to it.

There is nothing more demoralizing to a player/team than to hit a shot that looks like a winner only to have it saved by a diving player who ends up winning the rally cuz of that supreme effort.

Diving problems:

#1) Quite often, my chest would hit the ground when diving & I would see stars and feel slightly dizzy when I sprang back up to my feet to cover the next shot. If my chest hit the ground somewhat hard, I might even have the wind knocked out of me. Eventually, I learned to arch my back a bit as I was diving to that my belly and hands would meet the ground before my chest made contact. It is also helpful to kick the feet up as you make ontact so that you don't bang up your knees on the dive.

#2) As my racket hand hit the ground on the dive, quite often I would scrape the outside part of the heel of that hand and receive a nasty floor burn for my troubles. At times, the floor burn might be bad enough to smart for several days. I don't know how other players resolved this problem, but my solution was to drop the racket just after making contact with the shuttle. This way I could place both the palms of both hands on the ground so that I could absorb some of the shock & facilitate a body slide on the floor (by pushing the hands backward after contact) just as a volleyballer would.

Not to fear... the racket ended up on the floor very close by so that I could pick it up quickly as I sprang back up to my feet. I could pick up the racket at the same time as I was getting up; in fact, picking up the racket was completed much quicker than getting back up to my feet. This way, I really lost no time (or very little time) in dropping the racket & picking it up again if I had to play another shot.

#3) As I mentioned before, my recovery time for getting back up to my feet is not as quick as I'd like. The racket recovery is not the problem here at all. I suppose that even tho' I don't practice the dive itself, it would probably be very beneficial to practice getting up from the floor as quickly as possible.

[SystemicAnomaly]

I remember hearing someone talk about how diving can be used to get some rest. Here's how it works:
1- when facing a difficult/hopeless shot (e.g. smash to kill), dive for the bird and smear sweat on the floor.
2- now that there is sweat on the floor, a short break will be taken to wipe off floor ->> rest!

Can't say that I would ever dive as a stalling tactic. However as I mentioned in my previous post, some times I would feel a little dizzy or winded after a dive. Cleaning up the floor after after a (wet) dive would provide a means to recover my breath & balance and to clear my head before resuming play. I would sometimes check & clean the floor even after a dry dive.

[coops241180]

I think this is a bad comparison of players anyway - Lundgaard Hansen is doubles player - he only has half the court space to cover compared with Lin Dan. If you Compare Nicolas Kidd and Lin Dan, i think you'd find the similarities are all there - Nick Kidd seems to make a habit of diving full length to return the shuttle.

not that seems to be any inherent technique there :)

[Benasp]

i won't coach to dive It would be like coaching a volleyball player to hit with the feet. Anyway, the diving come more from the ambition than the technique.

So i will say to spend you diving time on a better way to get to the birds

[jchan04]

I think this is answer your inital question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuShfAhfDdE
it shows a video of Lee Wei Chong, diving for a left hander's smash... and i wonder which left-hander (Lin Dan) they are trying to imitate.