Misbun: I will go if I have to

[jaclyn]

NATIONAL singles coach Misbun Sidek’s job is hanging in the balance.

The coach who has admitted failure in the Athens Olympics, has left his fate in the hands of his employers, the National Sports Council.

"It's the NSC who will have to decide if I stay or go," said Misbun at the Games Village yesterday, clearly indicating from this statement that he wasn't going to quit.

It is understood that there are intentions to employ a new singles coach, who is said to be a foreigner. The highly-placed source, in not revealing his identity, however said they already have a candidate in mind.

Whatever the outcome, whether he stays or goes, Misbun has made some recommendations to Sports Minister Datuk Azalina Othman Said who has called for a post-mortem.

"If we are truly interested in wanting to succeed on this stage, or in other world class tournaments, we must be prepared to invest and change our concept of management.

"For one, like the Chinese and the Indonesians, we too must be prepared to assign more coaches to players. One coach must be assigned to a maximum of only two players.

"I am mentally exhausted, having to look at three men singles players — Wong Choong Hann, Roslin Hashim, and Lee Chong Wei," said Misbun.

Unlike the Malaysians, the Indonesians are here with coaches who focus on one player each. While Joko Suprianto looks after Soni Dwi Kuncoro, Mulyo Handoyo is Taufik Hidayat's personal coach.

"I would have liked to have had Rashid (Sidek) here as well to look at (Lee) Chong Wei, and I also believe that (Cheah) Soon Kit should have been here as well to handle the women's doubles.

"Doubles coach (Yap) Kim Hock had to look at both the men's doubles pairs and the women's doubles as well.

"At this level of competition, players need very specialised attention, it's crucial. When you are looking at so many players, a coach may miss something and that could prove costly in matches," he explained.

Apparently, he had made this recommendation to the BA of Malaysia very much earlier, but lack of funds stood in the way.

"I am not making excuses for myself or the players, but I believe we would all have done better here if we had more resources at our disposal.

"But that's history now. What's important now, that is if we want to succeed in world meets, is to invest more in preparation of players, and change the way we think." And he couldn't have been more spot on than that.

[wl2172]

I hope Misbun stays, and I agree with him about having more attention to less players.

[Lau Kok Wei]

I think it's a stupid excuse from misbun, all the players are wise and mature enough to stand on their own. They are all pros and it's not like they need babysitting for all tournaments.

[flikflak]

I think it's a stupid excuse from misbun, all the players are wise and mature enough to stand on their own. They are all pros and it's not like they need babysitting for all tournaments.
Having personal coach or not has nothing to do with wise and mature things. It's up to the players themselves actually.

But, IMHO it's better to have personal coach. They only concern about your development and he knows what is right for you.

[rejang]

Having personal coach or not has nothing to do with wise and mature things. It's up to the players themselves actually.

But, IMHO it's better to have personal coach. They only concern about your development and he knows what is right for you.


I cannot agree with Misbun that more or individual coaches was the difference. I think the Chinese always has a singles coach (and LYB) when their singles play.

[Cheung]

I think it's a stupid excuse from misbun, all the players are wise and mature enough to stand on their own. They are all pros and it's not like they need babysitting for all tournaments.
I think the point of babysitting is completely off the mark.

Everybody can be a pro. However, there can be patterns that a coach can spot that a player may not realise is a weakness. It may only occur against certain opponents as well.

Look at tennis and the high standards that they have set. I think Roger Federer is almost unique in not having a personal coach. Practically all the top players do. Golf is another example.

[Wizbit]

I personally think players should be taught to fend for themselves. Tactics and mental play should be focused on as much as the physical side. Clearly some high ranking players are still very dependent on their coach, when things are not going their way..

On the other hand, it is good for TV coverage. Something to talk about during breaks, plus the coaches get more attention too.



I think the point of babysitting is completely off the mark.

Everybody can be a pro. However, there can be patterns that a coach can spot that a player may not realise is a weakness. It may only occur against certain opponents as well.

Look at tennis and the high standards that they have set. I think Roger Federer is almost unique in not having a personal coach. Practically all the top players do. Golf is another example.

[Dill]

I would have thought that at that stage in their sporting career each player or pairing would have their own coach.

I am quite surprised to find it otherwise :confused:

[flikflak]

I cannot agree with Misbun that more or individual coaches was the difference. I think the Chinese always has a singles coach (and LYB) when their singles play.

that coach must be... Tang Xue Hua? he's famous coach.

Yup, it's up to the players. If they have suited with his methods of training and don't require special attention then no need for personal coach.

Maybe they still want to. But only focused on very special reason, whatever it is?

[Kamen]

These are all excuses.

IMHO and no offence intended, i think the current batch of players and coaches are hopeless.

No matter what changes are implemented now, things will remain as it is. The Malaysians have had top notch coaches before such as Yang, Morten, Park Ju Bong, etc and time and again, they have failed.

And, it is forever the Malaysian style/habit to be reactive rather than pro-active. They will change only when something bad has happened.

Sadly, i am a Malaysian, a frustrated one. :crying:

[flikflak]

I don't hear the Malaysian news recently..... so I don't know....

where are the two brothers Roslin, Hafiz?

[kwun]

i was actually expecting better results from WongCH and the Choong/Lee combo in the Olympics. i thought Choong/Lee could've ended up on the podium considering their good run in recent years and being veterans be able to handle the pressure of the biggest game.

but they fell to eventual silver medalists Lee/Yoo.

[Kamen]

Roslin is the first round casulty in the Olyimpic pursuit. Hafiz has been losing since he won the AE which was about one (two) year ago.

[Kamen]

i was actually expecting better results from WongCH and the Choong/Lee combo in the Olympics. i thought Choong/Lee could've ended up on the podium considering their good run in recent years and being veterans be able to handle the pressure of the biggest game.

but they fell to eventual silver medalists Lee/Yoo. Same here! I was having high expectation then. High expectation leads to more frustration.

Then again, in the spirit of Olympic, i think i should be happy no matter the Malaysian failed desperately. The spirit of participation and completion. Cheers!

[Cheung]

I personally think players should be taught to fend for themselves. Tactics and mental play should be focused on as much as the physical side. Clearly some high ranking players are still very dependent on their coach, when things are not going their way..

On the other hand, it is good for TV coverage. Something to talk about during breaks, plus the coaches get more attention too.Well, everybody is different.

An athelete has many facets that ultimately decides their performance. They may be relatively weaker in some areas than others. Some of these areas may need the extra attention of a coach. Pressure also does different things to different people. Some people react by performing better. Some people absolutely crumble. So why not have a personal coach to help improve performance?

May I point out that the eventual winner of the mens singles Olympic games this year has his own coach....

The point of having a coach is to get the optimum performance out of a player. Maybe Misbun is right in that the time he had divided amongst the 3 players was too little. Previously he only had two, of which one won the All England. As for their other performances, perhaps most people will not object the players' own psychology have influenced their results.

But with WCH and LCW, do they lack the hunger? Perhaps not...

[Cheung]

i was actually expecting better results from WongCH and the Choong/Lee combo in the Olympics. i thought Choong/Lee could've ended up on the podium considering their good run in recent years and being veterans be able to handle the pressure of the biggest game.

but they fell to eventual silver medalists Lee/Yoo.It was a totally open field. Every pair had a chance of beating any other pair. (The exception is Ha/Kim vs Lee/Yoo - Lee/Yoo never win!) Some pair has to lose..

[FEND.]

NATIONAL singles coach Misbun Sidek’s job is hanging in the balance.

The coach who has admitted failure in the Athens Olympics, has left his fate in the hands of his employers, the National Sports Council.

"It's the NSC who will have to decide if I stay or go," said Misbun at the Games Village yesterday, clearly indicating from this statement that he wasn't going to quit.

It is understood that there are intentions to employ a new singles coach, who is said to be a foreigner. The highly-placed source, in not revealing his identity, however said they already have a candidate in mind.

Whatever the outcome, whether he stays or goes, Misbun has made some recommendations to Sports Minister Datuk Azalina Othman Said who has called for a post-mortem.

"If we are truly interested in wanting to succeed on this stage, or in other world class tournaments, we must be prepared to invest and change our concept of management.

"For one, like the Chinese and the Indonesians, we too must be prepared to assign more coaches to players. One coach must be assigned to a maximum of only two players.

"I am mentally exhausted, having to look at three men singles players — Wong Choong Hann, Roslin Hashim, and Lee Chong Wei," said Misbun.

Unlike the Malaysians, the Indonesians are here with coaches who focus on one player each. While Joko Suprianto looks after Soni Dwi Kuncoro, Mulyo Handoyo is Taufik Hidayat's personal coach.

"I would have liked to have had Rashid (Sidek) here as well to look at (Lee) Chong Wei, and I also believe that (Cheah) Soon Kit should have been here as well to handle the women's doubles.

"Doubles coach (Yap) Kim Hock had to look at both the men's doubles pairs and the women's doubles as well.

"At this level of competition, players need very specialised attention, it's crucial. When you are looking at so many players, a coach may miss something and that could prove costly in matches," he explained.

Apparently, he had made this recommendation to the BA of Malaysia very much earlier, but lack of funds stood in the way.

"I am not making excuses for myself or the players, but I believe we would all have done better here if we had more resources at our disposal.

"But that's history now. What's important now, that is if we want to succeed in world meets, is to invest more in preparation of players, and change the way we think." And he couldn't have been more spot on than that.
GO MISBUN!!! BYE BYE!!! SAYONARA!!! ALOHA!!!! ARRIVEDERCI!! ΑΝΤΙΟ!!! ADIÓS !!! 안녕 !!! 再见 !!! VAARWEL!!! AU REVOIR!!! AUF WIEDERSEHEN!!! さようなら!!! ADEUS!!! SELAMAT TINGGAL!!!

WE DON'T NEED YOU!! YOU JUST S*** IN MY OPINION. NOT WILLING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!!

Badminton Association Malaysia should employ better people. More technology should be involved in training out players. It comes down to a proper physio, equipment, speciality coaches like someone to practice smashes with the players, someone to coach service, someone for netplay etc etc, psychological analysis of an athelete, etc.

They should take a leaf out of Arsene Wenger's book. The current manager of Arsenal FC in England. When he came everything changed. The diet, the coaches (half of them were replaced), the rooms were repainted to beige instead of fiery red, more physical training, less junk food consumption, less alcohol, better pitches to play on, proper area to diagnose players injuries etc etc.

This is how modern sports training should be carried out not 'kampung' style training. That's how one should improve sports. If your coaches aren't up to it, GET FOREIGN ONES WHO ARE DAMN WELL BETTER.

Just a thought.

Anyone agrees / disagrees? Please put your views.

[Wizbit]

Having a personal coach is essential for a players development and progress. I am just stating that some (a minority) players are too dependent on their coaches. Without a coach on the sideline, they are lost. Is it because of their lack of 'killer instinct'? Making comparisons in our sister sport, which has far more funding, the best player in the world at the moment, Roger Federer does not have a personal coach. He's doing pretty well for himself don't you think? (bar the Olympic performance).


Well, everybody is different.

An athelete has many facets that ultimately decides their performance. They may be relatively weaker in some areas than others. Some of these areas may need the extra attention of a coach. Pressure also does different things to different people. Some people react by performing better. Some people absolutely crumble. So why not have a personal coach to help improve performance?

May I point out that the eventual winner of the mens singles Olympic games this year has his own coach....

The point of having a coach is to get the optimum performance out of a player. Maybe Misbun is right in that the time he had divided amongst the 3 players was too little. Previously he only had two, of which one won the All England. As for their other performances, perhaps most people will not object the players' own psychology have influenced their results.

But with WCH and LCW, do they lack the hunger? Perhaps not...

[Wizbit]

Slight overeaction Fend?? ;)

I'm sure the skill training side of things is well up to scratch. It's not like the Malaysians are a different skill level from the Indonesians or Chinese.

I think Misbun is not a bad coach, certainly a very charismatic fellow :P I do think he is very biased though, and has expressed some favouritism for certain players and families of players. As a national coach, it is not something other players look up to, or gives them confidence.

I thought that Malaysia hired lots of foreign coaches before? The other problem as stated by himself is funding.

I would get rid of Yap Kim Hock? the doubles coach...

GO MISBUN!!! BYE BYE!!! SAYONARA!!! ALOHA!!!! ARRIVEDERCI!! ΑΝΤΙΟ!!! ADIÓS !!! 안녕 !!! 再见 !!! VAARWEL!!! AU REVOIR!!! AUF WIEDERSEHEN!!! さようなら!!! ADEUS!!! SELAMAT TINGGAL!!!

WE DON'T NEED YOU!! YOU JUST S*** IN MY OPINION. NOT WILLING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!!

Badminton Association Malaysia should employ better people. More technology should be involved in training out players. It comes down to a proper physio, equipment, speciality coaches like someone to practice smashes with the players, someone to coach service, someone for netplay etc etc, psychological analysis of an athelete, etc.

They should take a leaf out of Arsene Wenger's book. The current manager of Arsenal FC in England. When he came everything changed. The diet, the coaches (half of them were replaced), the rooms were repainted to beige instead of fiery red, more physical training, less junk food consumption, less alcohol, better pitches to play on, proper area to diagnose players injuries etc etc.

This is how modern sports training should be carried out not 'kampung' style training. That's how one should improve sports. If your coaches aren't up to it, GET FOREIGN ONES WHO ARE DAMN WELL BETTER.

Just a thought.

Anyone agrees / disagrees? Please put your views.

[taneepak]

Fend, there is a world of difference between Arsernal FC and Malaysia badminton. Arsernal has the luxury of buying the best players from any country. Can Misbun buy Taufit and ask him to play for Malaysia? Of course not. A better comparison would be between the England soccer team and the Malaysian badminton team; and here you will find a lot of similarities-sacked coaches, finger-pointing, morale problem, in-fighting, etc., etc.

[seven]

Fend, there is a world of difference between Arsernal FC and Malaysia badminton. Arsernal has the luxury of buying the best players from any country. Can Misbun buy Taufit and ask him to play for Malaysia? Of course not. A better comparison would be between the England soccer team and the Malaysian badminton team; and here you will find a lot of similarities-sacked coaches, finger-pointing, morale problem, in-fighting, etc., etc.
I don't think England football team is a good example to follow, they keep losing all the important matches! :p (this has been the case for years and years)

[liverpool]

Misbun resignation....He cannot shoulder all the responsibilities...Very preculiar to sport in Malaysia. It is always change of players and coaches but never the administrator. The most glaring is Malaysian Football. For all the non Malaysian...we have nearly 10 coaches or MORE ( lost count)but the helm remains the same for the past twenty years!!! In addition, not a single stadium in UK can match our National Football stadium at Bukit Jalil in terms of capacity and infra structure!!!

As for badminton in Malaysia we need more fund and a bigger talent pool. Except for Koo Kien Keat our back up at Bukit Jalil does not seems to be heading any where. The next up and coming world beater only coming to puberty!!! A 12 years old player from Selangor name Zulfaldi. I guess the trainees at this elite school stop improving the moment they are selected. No pressure as there is not much competition from others. Thus we need more elite center in every state.

Get the parent involve by providing them with Level One coaching cert. Send one ex-national trainee to every district where his responsibilities include coaching teachers and aspiring coaches , scouting for BAM , training players, and organizing age group tournament. Thus all our ex national players knew there is a job waiting for them in collaboration with Ministry of Education and National Sport Council which will foot their wages.

Lastly, am I dreaming!!! I hope to see an Olympic champion in badminton from Malaysia.

[FEND.]

mmm. In response to taneepeek. : I don't think they bought Henry when he was at his best, neither did they buy Vieira when he was at his best, Ashley cole was from the youth system, Ljungberg was an unknown before he came to Arsenal, Nicolas Anelka also before he left and the list goes on. What I am pointing out here is that with a proper systematic scheme, we can mine out players better than the ones we have no only in terms of badminton or football but other sports. I question the dedication of our players at times or rather our national athletes. Are they there rather for the free housing, sponsorship free pay checks by Maybank and so on.. (You know who you are). Do you see them training as hard as they should be? maybe harder maybe less we cannot tell. But one thing remains clear, Malaysia has not won any medals in the current olympics. Our future looks so dim that we need the explosion of an Atom Bomb before we can see the light.

Wenger had a proper system at Arsenal FC. He knew what was lacking, saw the problem and fixed every aspect of it. In our country malaysia, do we see proper dietician monitering what our players eat? A physio to keep track of our players fitness? No we do not. We can actually set up sophisticated systems, everything was neatly planned out. Here however we do not see it. There was a youth system. Do we see a proper youth system here in Malaysia? If so please enlighten me. When I mean proper I mean 'Specified for ages under _____ and schemes aka study in the morning at a proper school and train badminton in the afternoon.

If you want an example of a fantastic youth system, look no further than Ajax FC of Holland. They CHURN OUT yes CHURN OUT top class players at 21 who ARE SUPERB players capable of first team competitive football. Want some names? Dennis Bergkamp, Kluivert, Van Der Vaart, Van Der Meyde, Christian Chivu, Johan Cryuff (if i'm not mistaken) and many others.

Don't tell me they had a time machien and bought them from the future or something.

The England football team? They do not have the luxury of training everyday unlike our malaysian national badminton team do they? They are just picked on their performance at club level, but you have to question why some of them are there, aka Owen, Heskey ? But here in Malaysia our national players train together don't they? 1 coach can't teach all the strokes. 1 coach can't have all the international experience. These coaches here only teach what they know, and from what I see, what they know is not that much. Malaysia should go out and get more foreign coaches to better ourselves. Start swallowing whatever pride is left (almost none) and go out there and get someone who can shed enlightenment on our players.

When I mean coach I am not saying only the head coach, there should be someone to do specific drills with that person, a tactician, analyst, physio etc.

Right now that's all I've got to say. My brain is fine tuned for studying chemistry now.

Will post back after replies to this topic

Cheers

[TrunkZ69]

Fend , you complain about the lack of coaches correct?
But doesn't in the article Misbun state that he asked for more coaches, but BAM denied his request? I'm pretty sure he's not knowledgable enough to do all the things you think they need. You need a certain ammount of funding for all of that, and from the looks of it, BAM isn't willing to give that funding out. Finger pointing at Misbun won't really help.

[jug8man]

mmm. In response to taneepeek. : I don't think they bought Henry when he was at his best, neither did they buy Vieira when he was at his best, Ashley cole was from the youth system, Ljungberg was an unknown before he came to Arsenal, Nicolas Anelka also before he left and the list goes on. What I am pointing out here is that with a proper systematic scheme, we can mine out players better than the ones we have no only in terms of badminton or football but other sports. I question the dedication of our players at times or rather our national athletes. Are they there rather for the free housing, sponsorship free pay checks by Maybank and so on.. (You know who you are). Do you see them training as hard as they should be? maybe harder maybe less we cannot tell. But one thing remains clear, Malaysia has not won any medals in the current olympics. Our future looks so dim that we need the explosion of an Atom Bomb before we can see the light.

Wenger had a proper system at Arsenal FC. He knew what was lacking, saw the problem and fixed every aspect of it. In our country malaysia, do we see proper dietician monitering what our players eat? A physio to keep track of our players fitness? No we do not. We can actually set up sophisticated systems, everything was neatly planned out. Here however we do not see it. There was a youth system. Do we see a proper youth system here in Malaysia? If so please enlighten me. When I mean proper I mean 'Specified for ages under _____ and schemes aka study in the morning at a proper school and train badminton in the afternoon.

If you want an example of a fantastic youth system, look no further than Ajax FC of Holland. They CHURN OUT yes CHURN OUT top class players at 21 who ARE SUPERB players capable of first team competitive football. Want some names? Dennis Bergkamp, Kluivert, Van Der Vaart, Van Der Meyde, Christian Chivu, Johan Cryuff (if i'm not mistaken) and many others.

Don't tell me they had a time machien and bought them from the future or something.

The England football team? They do not have the luxury of training everyday unlike our malaysian national badminton team do they? They are just picked on their performance at club level, but you have to question why some of them are there, aka Owen, Heskey ? But here in Malaysia our national players train together don't they? 1 coach can't teach all the strokes. 1 coach can't have all the international experience. These coaches here only teach what they know, and from what I see, what they know is not that much. Malaysia should go out and get more foreign coaches to better ourselves. Start swallowing whatever pride is left (almost none) and go out there and get someone who can shed enlightenment on our players.

When I mean coach I am not saying only the head coach, there should be someone to do specific drills with that person, a tactician, analyst, physio etc.

Right now that's all I've got to say. My brain is fine tuned for studying chemistry now.

Will post back after replies to this topic

Cheers

1) IMHO with the exeption of the olympics............ the reasonable performance in the Thomas cup.......... everything was nice and peachy (but not that great) for malaysian badminton this past year (2003-2004). couple of semifinals, finals, and open champions.

2) you want to compare malaysia to england? when england or a club wins something everybody comes out and celebrate. in malaysia what do you see? almost nothing. but when we lose our players and coaches get stoned by the public. im a malaysian. and right now with this kind of attitude im seeing in malaysia........... im not the proudest man alive.

3) china and indonesia do not practice anywhere near the stuff that you have mentioned. still world beaters year after year.

4) i do agree about 1 thing you have said........ there are a whole lot of freebies in malaysia. they enjoy free programs set up to develop the sport in malaysia cause its free. charge them a cent and see how many stays. where do all talent go to after highschool education? they run off to further their education. there goes the millions of dollars (ringgit) the govt spent (wasted).
they also can not use the excuse that ther is no future/job security/income in sport for the reason there is none is because they themselves are not willing to pay, then who should be willing to pay them. why cant major brands/companies support these atheletes? because everyone is buying pirated goods/fakes that transfer profits to shadow companies that do not give back to the community/country.

5) your high regard for foreign/western coaches without any respect for the wealth of knowledge and specialition possesed by our own country is known to me as the 'post colonization syndrome/mentality'. and yes there are many of you in malaysia.

:mad: right back at you Malaysia!

[Loh]

As with many things, one has to find a scapegoat for one's loss or disappointment.

I think, under the circumstances, Misbun has done his best as coach. He has warned the BAM of certain shortcomings but no relief was offered. The support was lacking, so it seemed. So he and Yap soldiered on as best as they could. There were certainly improvement on their trainees' performance, particularly Lee Chong Wei and the veteran doubles of Choong/Lee as they have displayed in recent IBF tournaments. Some may disagree, but I thought they have done relatively well compared with before. But as a team, they were not able to shine, as in the TC. It was most unfortunate and so Misbun has now to take the blame as a gentleman.

As stated by some, technical-wise, there is little difference among Malaysia's best compared with those of China, Denmark, Indonesia or South Korea. Then why was it that Malaysian players could not even garner a single medal in badminton?

It all boils down to the form of the player on his day of competition. There is no reason why on a good day a Malaysian cannot beat Taufik or Shon or Sony or Boonsak! It is of no use trying to buy Taufik's services because Malaysia already posseses such calibre.

Just throw your mind back a few months ago and picture the unhealthy state of affairs of Indonesian badminton, of Taufik's and their doubles' yo-yo performance. This has necessitated an almost complete revamp of the training programme for Indonesia's national players with a seeminly 'tough' Icuk at the helm. Any world-class player can fall into a slump suddenly and fail to recover in time for the big stage! Even in this particular Athens Olympics, we have witnessed upsets upon upsets. Who would have thought that super Lin Dan would be the first World No. 1 victim to fall in the first round to unseeded Ronald Susilo? And there were many other examples along the way.

So, there is a limit to what the authorities can do for a player. You may have the best facilities, the best coach (not necessarily foreign coaches are the best for Malaysia has some of them and yet could not always deliver), to help you train better, but in the end, it is the player himself who will face the final test. What is the player made of, particularly his mental makeup?

The confluence of ability, fitness, talent, form and luck will have to come into play in the final analysis. And all of these point to the player in question in the most crucial moment of his performance.

The player has to answer for himself in the end and please don't blame the coach! ;)

[FEND.]

Fend , you complain about the lack of coaches correct?
But doesn't in the article Misbun state that he asked for more coaches, but BAM denied his request? I'm pretty sure he's not knowledgable enough to do all the things you think they need. You need a certain ammount of funding for all of that, and from the looks of it, BAM isn't willing to give that funding out. Finger pointing at Misbun won't really help.
Funding should be the job of the BAM. From what I look at it right now, it is as if they do not support our players. If they did our players would have better 'stuff' to train with. If they also had been more commmitted. Why keep misbun there. -.-

Misbun I feel does not keep up. If he had asked for more coaches, maybe all he said was, 'Look here, I want more coaches to train my players.' BAM would say, 'Uhh right. Can't you do it yourself?' Misbun, 'Yea I guess you're right' Do you think he gave proper documentation? I do not think so. Did he have an efficient system in the works? No. As far as I know malaysian badminton, I spoke to Kwan Yoke Meng once when he came to Brunei. He said in the 90's during Foo Kok Keong's time and stuff, they had a chinese coach who specifically taught the basics. Footwork and stuff. Why do you think the chinese's footwork is bloody good? If I'm not mistaken he also said that this chinese coach after coaching malaysia went to Indonesia where Mia Audina was scouted and trained.

So it's down to this. Malaysian mentality. 2: BAM needs to listen to advice. Not live in their fantasy land when we won the Thomas Cup in 1992. Misbun definitely must go. I do not see any progress in Malaysian Badminton. More of a backwards kinda of thing. If we had progress why hasn't our womens players improved? Why has it stayed stagnent or rather outdated?

mmm.

P.S Yong Hock Kin gave me his shirt (unused, only has malaysia as the name, no player name but it has proton sponsorship) no signature. He gave me when he came with Kwan Yoke ming and stuff during the Brunei Grand Prix in 1999 if I'm not mistaken.

[jug8man]

So it's down to this. Malaysian mentality. 2: BAM needs to listen to advice. Not live in their fantasy land when we won the Thomas Cup in 1992. Misbun definitely must go. I do not see any progress in Malaysian Badminton. More of a backwards kinda of thing. If we had progress why hasn't our womens players improved? Why has it stayed stagnent or rather outdated?


P.S Yong Hock Kin gave me his shirt (unused, only has malaysia as the name, no player name but it has proton sponsorship) no signature. He gave me when he came with Kwan Yoke ming and stuff during the Brunei Grand Prix in 1999 if I'm not mistaken.

you are being too ideal. for most of your argument is very rethoric.

show me proof that malaysian badminton is going downhill.

if saying the malaysian team fared badly in the olympics should cost Misbun his job........... then Lin Dan should very much hang up his racquet as well.

what is your point about the YHK t shirt?

[FEND.]

1) IMHO with the exeption of the olympics............ the reasonable performance in the Thomas cup.......... everything was nice and peachy (but not that great) for malaysian badminton this past year (2003-2004). couple of semifinals, finals, and open champions.

2) you want to compare malaysia to england? when england or a club wins something everybody comes out and celebrate. in malaysia what do you see? almost nothing. but when we lose our players and coaches get stoned by the public. im a malaysian. and right now with this kind of attitude im seeing in malaysia........... im not the proudest man alive.

3) china and indonesia do not practice anywhere near the stuff that you have mentioned. still world beaters year after year.

4) i do agree about 1 thing you have said........ there are a whole lot of freebies in malaysia. they enjoy free programs set up to develop the sport in malaysia cause its free. charge them a cent and see how many stays. where do all talent go to after highschool education? they run off to further their education. there goes the millions of dollars (ringgit) the govt spent (wasted).
they also can not use the excuse that ther is no future/job security/income in sport for the reason there is none is because they themselves are not willing to pay, then who should be willing to pay them. why cant major brands/companies support these atheletes? because everyone is buying pirated goods/fakes that transfer profits to shadow companies that do not give back to the community/country.

5) your high regard for foreign/western coaches without any respect for the wealth of knowledge and specialition possesed by our own country is known to me as the 'post colonization syndrome/mentality'. and yes there are many of you in malaysia.

:mad: right back at you Malaysia!
With respect to your statement. On point 5, our wealth and knowledge + specialisation is almost nothing compared to the rest of the world. When I mean rest of the world, I do not mean the West. I am talking of Japan, Korea, China, SINGPOARE and stuff. NO ONE IN THE WORLD CAN SURVIVE BEING A GENERALIST. Believe me I know. If you want to know why it's the same principle as it is in Economics. I would not go and touch on it now. If we are so good, why have we had to play catch up in terms of technology? Better education? Infrastructure? International Trade? Malaysia is not a country full of what I would term 'pro' people. However we do have people who can be 'pro.' However our people here do not even know how to get there. Want an example? Intel. Nvidia. ATI. AMD. IBM. Microsoft. Do you possibly think that we would've invented all these first? No history has shown it. Our way of laid back thinking and as mahathir calls something like 'kais pagi makan pagi, kais malam makan malam' english translation : work morning eat in the morning, work at night eat at night, but the meaning is clear. We only work just to satisfy our immediate wants. We do not seem to care about progress as the rest of the world.

This does not only apply to sports in our country but rather the other parts like our economy and stuff. Without outside help, we would be stuck in a padigram which will limit us and push us back into the stone age. Unless Malaysia opens up to the new ideas, we will be what the malays call 'seperti katak di bawah tempurong' which means like a frog under an empty half coconut shell. Meaning : One who is narrow minded. As the frog only sees so little, it thinks only so little. Do you think also that we would be able to launch measat the satelite into orbit? Without russian technology? Hell no.

Same goes with our country. Without innovators like Mahathir we would be almost no where. Who would've heard bout malaysia?

We can only do so much for our sports in malaysia. if we want to improve the only way is to get some new faces in to share new ideas. What's wrong with accepting other ideas especially if those ideas are good ones?

mmm.

[FEND.]

what is your point about the YHK t shirt?
in the moment kind of thing.

[FEND.]

show me proof that malaysian badminton is going downhill.

I still do not see the superiority of Malaysian badminton as I used to watch on TV when I was younger. Last time the words Malaysia Badminton struck FEAR INTO THE HEARTS OF THEIR OPPONENTS. NOW, it's just like a small puppy who doesn't even have its first teeth barking as loud as it's could.

You know what I mean. When we say WCH vs TH. WHo do you honestly think first to win? Even though TH is lower rank than WCH we all persume first that TH will win. What bout mens doubles? CTH & LWW. Wow they got no 1. Great, have they won much this year? mmm Malaysia Open err mmm. guess not. When we mention Jonas / Lars we expect them to win almost easily. But ours, it's like I do not have faith in them to win anything.

[Loh]

FEND

I'm confused! :confused: For you sounded more like a Malaysian thatn a Bruneian!

Jug8man

Please give FEND a chance to have some leeway. If he admires Yong and feels happy about receiving his shirt, let it be, esp when he is supposed to be studying for his exam now.

Cheers! ;)

[FEND.]

FEND

I'm confused! :confused: For you sounded more like a Malaysian thatn a Bruneian!

Jug8man

Please give FEND a chance to have some leeway. If he admires Yong and feels happy about receiving his shirt, let it be, esp when he is supposed to be studying for his exam now.

Cheers! ;)
Loh, if you want to know why I'm more of a malaysian well it's because I am http://www.badmintoncentral.com/vb/images/smilies/tongue.gif. Malaysian Chinese, born in Selangor, mom from malacca, dad from pahang. They came to brunei for job opportunities around 20 - 23 years back. SInce then I've been living here all my life, but have been patriotic to malaysia. I go back to Malaysia every year without fail, as there's no place like home.

[jug8man]

With respect to your statement. On point 5, our wealth and knowledge + specialisation is almost nothing compared to the rest of the world. When I mean rest of the world, I do not mean the West. I am talking of Japan, Korea, China, SINGPOARE and stuff. NO ONE IN THE WORLD CAN SURVIVE BEING A GENERALIST. Believe me I know. If you want to know why it's the same principle as it is in Economics. I would not go and touch on it now. If we are so good, why have we had to play catch up in terms of technology? Better education? Infrastructure? International Trade? Malaysia is not a country full of what I would term 'pro' people. However we do have people who can be 'pro.' However our people here do not even know how to get there. Want an example? Intel. Nvidia. ATI. AMD. IBM. Microsoft. Do you possibly think that we would've invented all these first? No history has shown it. Our way of laid back thinking and as mahathir calls something like 'kais pagi makan pagi, kais malam makan malam' english translation : work morning eat in the morning, work at night eat at night, but the meaning is clear. We only work just to satisfy our immediate wants. We do not seem to care about progress as the rest of the world.

This does not only apply to sports in our country but rather the other parts like our economy and stuff. Without outside help, we would be stuck in a padigram which will limit us and push us back into the stone age. Unless Malaysia opens up to the new ideas, we will be what the malays call 'seperti katak di bawah tempurong' which means like a frog under an empty half coconut shell. Meaning : One who is narrow minded. As the frog only sees so little, it thinks only so little. Do you think also that we would be able to launch measat the satelite into orbit? Without russian technology? Hell no.

Same goes with our country. Without innovators like Mahathir we would be almost no where. Who would've heard bout malaysia?

We can only do so much for our sports in malaysia. if we want to improve the only way is to get some new faces in to share new ideas. What's wrong with accepting other ideas especially if those ideas are good ones?

mmm.


if you can show misbun 1/2 the respect you gave Tun Dr Mahatir, we would not be having this difference in opinion. you are proud of one, but you shoot down another. im not saying misbun has contributed as much as TDM but the effort put in should be appreciated, supported, and not trampled down on.

there's nothing wrong about looking for outside speciality. we malaysian have been doing this for years have you not noticed. so much for the hooohaaaa of foreign expertise. park JB, china coaches, etc and they get paid sickeningly too much compared to what the local, equaly capabled counterparts. do you know how much this outflow of currency hurts our economy. especially if these 'foreign experts' turn out to be nothing else but a 'white elephant'.

you have confused the definition of specialization. since Malaysia (china, indonesia and others) are not specialized in tech, it is only obvious that we play catch up with the rest. but if we are specialized in something (like lets say to a great degree badminton) why should we play catch up with other countries that have less success or about the same only. the notion of sharing knowledge is always welcomed of course.

european countries (unless you havent noticed) have been doing catching up in badminton with countries like Malaysia and Indonesia for the past 20+ (and are succeding well) years and what does Malaysia do? they hire Morten Frost and pay him a sick-sick amount. how does that make you feel about your value as a malaysian compared to the great foreigners? i have no bone to pick with morten, i think he is a great player in his time but what great wonder did he do for malaysia? does the benefit of him being in malaysia justify the fee he received? what incredible credentials did he have as a coach to be begged to come to malaysia? what superb/monumental/great achievement did he have since then till now as a coach that justifies the belittlement/beminisculement of his malaysian counterparts?

you know the answer.

[jug8man]

FEND

I'm confused! :confused: For you sounded more like a Malaysian thatn a Bruneian!

Jug8man

Please give FEND a chance to have some leeway. If he admires Yong and feels happy about receiving his shirt, let it be, esp when he is supposed to be studying for his exam now.

Cheers! ;)

ok. i take your advice. i was just asking about the shirt. no problem with it.

go read your books boy! :D (joke)

[taneepak]

It looks like looking for scapegoat fever is upon us. First, it was Indonesia when they lost the Thomas Cup. The Chinese will now find some one to blame for letting the biggest prize-MS-slip away. Perhaps one or more coaches for each player, one for technical skills, another for fitness, yet another for tactics, and maybe another for the mental side? The Malaysian camp is now in turmoil, and everyone is so sure its all Misbun's fault. Or is it? Would you sing the same tune if either WCH or LCW had won a gold or silver? Sometimes, extreme disappointment can colour our judgement. How do you think the Koreans feel about letting a sure thing-XD-slip away? Some may say there must be a conspiracy. Why don't we look at the Danes? Are they blaming all and sundry for their failure?
If Malaysia were to implement all Fend's suggestions, do you really think it would make any difference? Would hiring foreign coaches help? If we think so, then we are coming back one full circle. Nothing is worse than to offer and implement suggestions in the heat of the debacle. Cool down first. Then and only then do you do a post-mortem, and come up with suggestions. :cool:

[Cheung]

Having a personal coach is essential for a players development and progress. I am just stating that some (a minority) players are too dependent on their coaches. Without a coach on the sideline, they are lost. Is it because of their lack of 'killer instinct'? Making comparisons in our sister sport, which has far more funding, the best player in the world at the moment, Roger Federer does not have a personal coach. He's doing pretty well for himself don't you think? (bar the Olympic performance).
Federer does not have a coach at the moment. That is true. However, unfortunately, he is the exception.

Just watched the tabletennis - players have their coaches at courtside.

Well, in the end, all I can say is that it would not be right to make Misbun be the political scapegoat for the shortcomings of the administration. The administration is willing to make high level and famous appointments but there seems to be a lack of support. Morten Frost left. Park JB found himself doing lots of administrative work rather than being with players (or was it the the other way round with Frost doing less coaching?). Indra said the structure had to change and got booted out.............if Misbun goes, then one has to look at more underlying and fundamental problems.

If I were Misbun, the fallout wouldn't affect me as there is the option of going back to NM and without the political burden. But as a M'sian, Misbun would be proud to lead the national team.....just remember, the BAM came looking for him!

[jug8man]

It looks like looking for scapegoat fever is upon us. First, it was Indonesia when they lost the Thomas Cup. The Chinese will now find some one to blame for letting the biggest prize-MS-slip away. Perhaps one or more coaches for each player, one for technical skills, another for fitness, yet another for tactics, and maybe another for the mental side? The Malaysian camp is now in turmoil, and everyone is so sure its all Misbun's fault. Or is it? Would you sing the same tune if either WCH or LCW had won a gold or silver? Sometimes, extreme disappointment can colour our judgement. How do you think the Koreans feel about letting a sure thing-XD-slip away? Some may say there must be a conspiracy. Why don't we look at the Danes? Are they blaming all and sundry for their failure?
If Malaysia were to implement all Fend's suggestions, do you really think it would make any difference? Would hiring foreign coaches help? If we think so, then we are coming back one full circle. Nothing is worse than to offer and implement suggestions in the heat of the debacle. Cool down first. Then and only then do you do a post-mortem, and come up with suggestions. :cool:

hmmmmmmmm wise words. signs of an experienced character/individual. you must have weathered through a few rough storms?

[Wizbit]

Yes we are moaning about the same things, going round and round in circles. The same can be said about the British, no new talent blah blah blah, even though the Mixed is doing quite well...

Maybe we need to see an injection of funds into Badminton to see any changes.

I hear that Malaysian badminton players have lots of incentives, but if you take away these, then whos going to want to put the effort into it? In this day and age, "You can't buy everything with money, but with no money you can't buy anything!" The Danes are pretty lucky, as some of their star players could have flocked to another sport, namely football (soccer to you people)

Badminton must be the most minor majority sport, if there is such a thing!

hmmmmmmmm wise words. signs of an experienced character/individual. you must have weathered through a few rough storms?

[Wizbit]

Either way you look at it, Badminto is a major minor sport, or minor major sport.




Yes we are moaning about the same things, going round and round in circles. The same can be said about the British, no new talent blah blah blah, even though the Mixed is doing quite well...

Maybe we need to see an injection of funds into Badminton to see any changes.

I hear that Malaysian badminton players have lots of incentives, but if you take away these, then whos going to want to put the effort into it? In this day and age, "You can't buy everything with money, but with no money you can't buy anything!" The Danes are pretty lucky, as some of their star players could have flocked to another sport, namely football (soccer to you people)

Badminton must be the most minor majority sport, if there is such a thing!

[Han]

In just few shorts years, Malaysia had Morten Frost, Park Jubong, Indra Gunawan and Misbun Sidek as head coaches with very similar poor results, so I don't think coaches are the problem of Malaysia badminton. Within these periods, Malaysia also produced capable players like Yong Hock Kin, Ong Ewe Hock, Hafiz, Roslin, Wong Choon Hann, Lee Tsuen Seng and Lee Chong Wei but all under-acheived(except Lee Chong Wei) in my opinion. I think it's time to look at the problem somewhere else on administrative side. Not sure why Cheah Soon Kit and Rashid Sidek were not included in the coaching staff flying to Athen as they are crucial in up to date preparation for each player under their charges.
Lets just restructure the adminstration and see how it goes.

[Loh]

Loh, if you want to know why I'm more of a malaysian well it's because I am http://www.badmintoncentral.com/vb/images/smilies/tongue.gif. Malaysian Chinese, born in Selangor, mom from malacca, dad from pahang. They came to brunei for job opportunities around 20 - 23 years back. SInce then I've been living here all my life, but have been patriotic to malaysia. I go back to Malaysia every year without fail, as there's no place like home.

Thanks for your interesting disclosure! :)

Your parents must be Malaysians and made sure you are born in in their own country and Selangor state as they have been in Brunei for more than 20 years and you are only 17 now. You must have been brought into the world during one of those annual home pilgrimages made by them! :D

I admire your patriotism and the manner you put forward some of your arguments although I cannot seriously buy all of them. ;)

I still maintain that in the final analysis, it is the player who has to answer for himself.

Although the time period is different, let me bring you back to the days of the first Thomas Cup held in 1949 at Queen's Hall in Preston, England. Malaya (Singapore was part of the team with Wong Peng Soon and Ong Poh Lim representing) stunned the badminton world when they beat Denmark
8-1.

Hitherto, no Asian team was known to be so strong as the All England, which was then the de facto world championship that started as early as 1900, was dominated by the West, principally players from England, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden and even the USA, with their most famous singles player, Dave Freemann. But since the appearance of the Malayans in 1949, it was the turn for Asians to dominate, with Denmark (particularly Erland Kops, 5 times champ and Morten Frost, 4 times) being the only European country to spoil the aspirations of the Indonesians, Malaysians, Chinese and Indians.

Of course one reason for the non-participation of the Asians in the All England during the early years was probably the lack of funds and the long distances they have to travel, often by sea. Yes, the first Malayan team had to brave the seas for many days (maybe a month!) to arrive in England in unfriendly cold weather in order to compete. Yet they demolished the Danish opposition 8-1. I don't think the Malayan players have better facilities or proper management than their Western counterparts at that time. Better coaches, probably unheard of! :)

Malaya went on to repeat the TC story in 1955 when they handed Denmark another 8-1 beating in Singapore. And what was more astounding was this same player, Wong Peng Soon. At age 37, I repeat 37, Wong put up a superlative display by defeating, I presume, a much younger Joern Skaarup in three sets (then it was called 'set' and not 'game' as is now the case)
15-5, 16-18 and 15-4. The next day, he followed up with another scintillating performance and showed tremendous fighting spirit coming from behind with a first set loss of 12-15 to whip the great Finn Kobbero 15-0 in the second. He wrapped up the third set and match, 15-7.

What I'm trying to emphasize is that the PLAYER himself makes the difference. Badminton maestro, Wong Peng Soon, is a shining example of sporting greatness for he lived for badminton. The limitations and shortcomings he faced during his time never quite affected him as he pursued his only goal and ambition to be the best badminton player in the world! :p

[pptam]

From my observation, yupp, not only in Badminton but overall, Malaysia sportsmen and sportswomen have been rewarded with high incentives, extra bonus (if they win any tournaments). Beside secure a job at banks, they also get allowance, and I always heard some parents said "No need to enter university, just good in one sport and you will become rich."

Which is quite sad for me to hear that sentence. The environment has "evolved" the player become a gold digger who only play well when he get rewarded.

Malaysia players are lack of "fighting spirit." I can't see the same fighting spirit that shown by Lee-Ra during the bronze medal game with Chinese pair.

Misbun could be right about the focus and concentration on three players. But obviously the NSC may need to increase the budget for training and taxpayers like me will have to pay higher tax to support the training budget.

In other games like swimming, government has provide them full scholarship to train at USA for years and no result, none of them go through to final even the former asia champion, Lim Keng Liat.

After the session, their comment, they are not satisfy with the coach and wish to come back to Malaysia. At the first place, they left Malaysia for overseas because they complaint Local trainers unable to boast up their performance.

The NSC need to be strict with the guidelines and explore more talents than depend on these seniors who only know how to juggling their words.
I think the amount to be spend on the intensive project to get local talents will be cheaper than the 4 years abroad. :D

[ahtan]

I think the 1st to go should be the BAM commitees. There is no point having the best coaches in the world but managed by a a lousy Badminton Assoc. The political parties should not be involved in sports.

We have almost appointed all the best coaches in the world but ended up with most of them left due the too much interferance by BAM in thier coaching method &/or team selection. I think the coach should be given the full authority. LIke EPL the managers will always have the last say.

Stop giving any excuse like BAM is short of funds to train the players or etc. Even Iraq foodballers can reach semifinals. Just accept that we, BAM, are lousy.

I don't see any hope in malaysia badminton if they continue to run by the same team. This is exactly what had happened to the Malaysia football team as well.

[Cheung]

Loh, I think we cannot look so far back as those years. The current demands and standards of the game require a different approach.

Suffice to say, for M'sia, outcomes have been less than satisfactory despite coaches and players. So other aspects of the administration may need to be altered.

[FEND.]

In just few shorts years, Malaysia had Morten Frost, Park Jubong, Indra Gunawan and Misbun Sidek as head coaches with very similar poor results, so I don't think coaches are the problem of Malaysia badminton. Within these periods, Malaysia also produced capable players like Yong Hock Kin, Ong Ewe Hock, Hafiz, Roslin, Wong Choon Hann, Lee Tsuen Seng and Lee Chong Wei but all under-acheived(except Lee Chong Wei) in my opinion. I think it's time to look at the problem somewhere else on administrative side. Not sure why Cheah Soon Kit and Rashid Sidek were not included in the coaching staff flying to Athen as they are crucial in up to date preparation for each player under their charges.
Lets just restructure the adminstration and see how it goes. mmm. If my hunch is not wrong, the reason why CSK and RS din go along with the troup is because they say they 'have limited seats for coaches' to the trip to athens. Which I would translate as, some jerk of an idiot who doesn't even know much bout the sport goes in the place of a sportsman / coach.

I'll post my more in-depth views on the rest of the posts on thursday, when I can relaxingly drink my cup of coffee and stary typing in peace.

[FEND.]

This is how modern sports training should be carried out not 'kampung' style training. That's how one should improve sports. If your coaches aren't up to it, GET FOREIGN ONES WHO ARE DAMN WELL BETTER.

Just a thought.

Anyone agrees / disagrees? Please put your views.
I'd like to quote myself on this one. I did not say we should go with the foreigners and chuck our local ones. if you seee the "If your coaches aren't up to it, GET FOREIGN ONES WHO ARE DAMN WELL BETTER" I'd like to rephrase that to Get better coaches who are better than ours even if they happened to be foreigners.


Well, in the end, all I can say is that it would not be right to make Misbun be the political scapegoat for the shortcomings of the administration. The administration is willing to make high level and famous appointments but there seems to be a lack of support. Morten Frost left. Park JB found himself doing lots of administrative work rather than being with players (or was it the the other way round with Frost doing less coaching?). Indra said the structure had to change and got booted out.............if Misbun goes, then one has to look at more underlying and fundamental problems.
I'd a mention on that in the earlier post. The administration bit. Not many looked at it though, as they tried to bombard me with on my points regarding Misbun Sidek. I previously typed that first statement out because currently I do not see a head coach ready to take over or rather I do not see anyone in Malaysia capable of holding such a post.


So it's down to this. Malaysian mentality. 2: BAM needs to listen to advice. Not live in their fantasy land when we won the Thomas Cup in 1992. Misbun definitely must go. I do not see any progress in Malaysian Badminton. More of a backwards kinda of thing. If we had progress why hasn't our womens players improved? Why has it stayed stagnent or rather outdated?
mmm. I do not think anyone paid attention to this small paragraph as everyone seemed to be in the hype to spray the ammunition against my 1 by 1 kevlar vest. If jug8man has said that our malaysian badminton has improved. Answer my question above. And jug8man has not addressed the bit on malaysian mentality and about the BAM listening to advice.

Misbun sidek was holding the most important link between the BAM and the players. If he knew what was right for them, he should've been firm and stood up to the BAM and show them why he needed the extra staff, why he needed this not just sit back and lie down.

So, what are you views again, as I tried to make it clear for the rest of the forumers here.

[cheekygen]

Well, i think the Malaysian did try their best in the Olympic Games but just not good enough to win a medal. The players , i believe have give their best to prepare for the Olympic games and surely it is a disappointment for the nation that they couldn't bring home any medal. I've heard a lots of opinion about the Malaysian performance in the Olympic Games , some say they don't have the fighting spirit, some say they are not prepare well , and others blame it on coaches, but personally i think it is more than that. The pressure to win a medal is too much even before the went for Olympic....... so what exactly is the problem with them? We cannot really know because we are not in their shoes , the answer only lies with them.
In another way, their lost might able to bring new hope for the junior. As currently , i believe after the seniors retired , there won't be much quality player left in the national team for another 5 years...... the juniors are below par compare with the current world junior standard....... It is the time for BAM to think about the long term program to invest in more talented and potential young player instead of putting too much concentration in the national team and completely abandon the school/state development program. The state no longer active anymore as they don't have money to run their program.
Singapore is very wise to introduce the National Sport School for a long term goal to produce the world class athlete..... certainly Malaysia should follow their example. The coaches are particularly uneffective not in terms of coaching but communication skills........ they are constantly rivalry among the local coaches and foreign coaches in terms of salary and results...... the local coach are very much jealous of the foreign coaches good pay and they believe they can do the same but the main intention is still money.
To save the Malaysia Badminton , the association have to plan a systematic solution and change their mindset. The veteran players such as tan aik Huang, Tan Yee Khan , Ng Boon Bee all had given advise but no one pay attention to it........ Malaysian players are too individualistic in my opinion...
no unity, no team spirit....... not that they really want to but it is from young they have been brought up like that by the coaches. Even the singles players were against the doubles players as a result of the rivalry betwwen single coach and double coach..... as a result , Malaysia always fail in the team event .
In short , invest in a batch of young players and taught them the right mentality , a true champion's attitude and sportmanship spirit, and also unity among the players.... Many coaches left out the important part of bringing the player's characteristic inside and outside the court...... what's the point to have produce a champion but without a right attitude as a person? To learn badminton is not only to master the skill but along the way , to learn to be a good person as well.....

[jug8man]

.

before i start spraying ammunition like you have put it, i would like to say im very impressed with some of your views and ever willingness to share your opinions on current issues. especially at your age when almost everyone at that age normally wouldnt give a hoot about current issues. though i do tend to find that your views tend to sway towards idealism, bare in mine that that is just my opinion. nothing more.

im begining to think that you are the son of a malaysian ambasador i brunei or something. either way you have critical thinking and commendable ability in expressing yourself and your views.... cheers.


now lets get it started...........


1) "If your coaches aren't up to it, GET FOREIGN ONES WHO ARE DAMN WELL BETTER" I'd like to rephrase that to Get better coaches who are better than ours even if they happened to be foreigners.

im happy you have rephrased that sentence though to a certain extent you are still insinuating that we do not have the resource in able coaches. i do not agree.

2) ...my points regarding Misbun Sidek. I previously typed that first statement out because currently I do not see a head coach ready to take over or rather I do not see anyone in Malaysia capable of holding such a post.

if this was trully how you feel, you should have stated this long before the olympics and not after. now this statement has very little credibility just like how Taneepak put it "the scapegoat fever is upon us". your opinion however well presented or 'fact-based' is now standing in a very long line of similar but most likely baseless and emotional accusations and pointing of fingers. your point does not look very solid now to me sad to say.

also what great survey and scouting of development programs have you done in malaysia that can justify your view on no capable-credible coaches. most of the important ppl are behind the scenes to busy actually developing the sports from the grassroots than to bask in the media/press. they are all highly capable if given the task and responsibility. so is misbun IMHO.


3) I'd a mention on that in the earlier post. The administration bit. Not many looked at it though

i went through your first post. dont see anything that really suggest that you had mentioned about the administration bit.

4) mmm. I do not think anyone paid attention to this small paragraph as everyone seemed to be in the hype to spray the ammunition against my 1 by 1 kevlar vest. If jug8man has said that our malaysian badminton has improved. Answer my question above.

no development in women badminton....... i put that more to the malaysian culture. besides that i dont really see them being supported by the governing body. they get very little exposure and almost all the funds are spent on the men. imagine if you were the top malaysian badminton women player, you train 2 whole year only to be sent for the bi-annual sea games and thats about it... of course no dev lah and no incentive to stay in the team.

and as you know dev of the sport is BAM responsibility and every malaysian citizen. not really just the head coach. his job is to handles the players going for tournaments and their preparation. in results like i have said 2003-2004 has been a satisfactory year compared to the previous years for malaysian badminton. we are actually seeing some women getting their brake and earning their respect as well. note WD and WS to a degree of relative improvement. Rome not built in a day lah kawan (friend in malay language)!

5) And jug8man has not addressed the bit on malaysian mentality and about the BAM listening to advice.

hello? have you not read my first post in this thread? in what way did i not bazooka and machine gun and 200 meter sniper our malaysian mentality? perhaps that wasnt enough for you? re-read the post pls.

BAM is a total diff issue. for all i know it is common practice for administrators in malaysia to meddle with the coaches work. and they always decide on a lot of stuff and dont really care what coaches think....... just look at malaysian football, national level and state level.

6) Misbun sidek was holding the most important link between the BAM and the players. If he knew what was right for them, he should've been firm and stood up to the BAM and show them why he needed the extra staff, why he needed this not just sit back and lie down.

ah such beautiful idealism. i do miss the more innocent days....

7) i remember you comparing malaysian badminton players to english soccer club players. just look at the diff in income. badders are pretty much middleclass citizens in malaysia to say the most. footballers on the other hand in England make hundred of thousands or even millions annualy. and the best part is they dont really need to perform internationaly cause they make big bucks just playing within the country and etc.
also, since badders in malaysia are middle class citizens having to slog like a dog day in day out, plus the added pressure placed by the country, wouldnt it be so much easier for them, to just retire to a normal life with less stress and about the same if not more earnings from a normal job/business? this pretty much shows the lack of incentive for young talent to follow through in malaysia. it is how the economy is structured.

cheers

[taneepak]

How come the sudden torrent of critical comments/opinions only now where there were none before the Olympic Games? Why now, and not before? This is a sixtyfour-thousand question I am throwing at our instant and born-again critics. Where were you before? I even have a feeling that had Malaysia won a medal, which, frankly speaking, is not "even-stevens", the stuff now appearing in this thread would take a different turn.
The reason why there were no such critical comments before are either they had none or, if they had, they were afraid to make themselves a laughing stock should events turn out differently. After the event there are a thousand and one critics. Before? Deafening silence! :rolleyes: :D

[jug8man]

With respect to your statement. On point 5, our wealth and knowledge + specialisation is almost nothing compared to the rest of the world. When I mean rest of the world, I do not mean the West. I am talking of Japan, Korea, China, SINGPOARE and stuff. NO ONE IN THE WORLD CAN SURVIVE BEING A GENERALIST. Believe me I know. If you want to know why it's the same principle as it is in Economics. I would not go and touch on it now. If we are so good, why have we had to play catch up in terms of technology? Better education? Infrastructure? International Trade? Malaysia is not a country full of what I would term 'pro' people. However we do have people who can be 'pro.' However our people here do not even know how to get there. Want an example? Intel. Nvidia. ATI. AMD. IBM. Microsoft. Do you possibly think that we would've invented all these first? No history has shown it. Our way of laid back thinking and as mahathir calls something like 'kais pagi makan pagi, kais malam makan malam' english translation : work morning eat in the morning, work at night eat at night, but the meaning is clear. We only work just to satisfy our immediate wants. We do not seem to care about progress as the rest of the world.

This does not only apply to sports in our country but rather the other parts like our economy and stuff. Without outside help, we would be stuck in a padigram which will limit us and push us back into the stone age. Unless Malaysia opens up to the new ideas, we will be what the malays call 'seperti katak di bawah tempurong' which means like a frog under an empty half coconut shell. Meaning : One who is narrow minded. As the frog only sees so little, it thinks only so little. Do you think also that we would be able to launch measat the satelite into orbit? Without russian technology? Hell no.


mmm.


i highly recommend that you read up on these issues/subjects

1) abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. connect this to economic theories and then find a relation between economic activity and development funds for sport from opposite ends of the spectrum.

2) national sovereignity issues. differentiate sovereign with freedom and with independence. then compare the diff in malaysian history with great britain, japan or USA.

thorough reading these im sure you will find out why IMHO your idealistic views are not really practical in the real world scenario.

cheers

[Cheung]

Actually, there were grumblings from some BFer's at Misbun during the poor showing of the M'sian team during the Thomas Cup.

However, BAM did state their intention this year was the Olympics.

I find Cheekygen's statement enlighting. M'sia may underperform in the next 5 years and the underlying structure of producing badminton players needs changing.

[dlp]

Very interesting and enlightening discussion on malaysian badminton.

From an english view we have imported several top coaches, from Lee JB , PJB to Rexy and the chinese womens coach Yvette. These coaches have improved the players that already had the talent/ mentality :Archer, Robertson, Hallam, but have perhaps not done much for those "second rate" national players/ upcoming players. In short a great player will take advantage of a great coach but a great coach can't turn an 18 year old with only 90% of the required talent / attitude into a world beater.

N Robertson is our true world class talent, I can remember when he was 16 and he was a unique player even then, his attitude (although sometimes questionable) , his shots, tactics were all very different to what you saw in other english juniors.

I think Malaysia , much like England in badminton and other sports think they have a right to success based on the past. As Cheung says the game 20 years ago has no relevance to todays game. So like English players malaysians carry a burden of expectation based not on current talent but historical success. Rather than the AE singles win of Hafiz and md runner up this year being seen as major achievements they were seen as only stepping stones to bigger success which have proved beyond the players.

Players from emerging countries such as Germany or Singapore are in a much better position, for them any success is heralded and they do not suffer in comparison with past champions.

I think about six years ago at the All England malaysia didn't have a qtr finalist in any event, they were in danger of becoming a second class nation. Since then they have enjoyed a world no.1 singles player, an AE champion, World silver medalist, md no.1 pair and md AE ru pair. Ok so they have failed to land a olympic or world title but how many players do? When are only shooting for mens singles and doubles and there are some 15 pairs/players capable of beating anyone the chances of success are small. Look how indonesia have fallen, a country who had 4 pairs of md that were at the top and half the top 20 ms, until taufiks resurgence things looked bleak.

There is possibly a question mark over the mental strength / long term motivation of their players, this may or may not be down to the coaches.

[FEND.]

mmm.

With all that has been mentioned here, I do not think any of my opinions will matter much to many bfers at this current time concerning malaysian badminton. Since my 'idealistic' views aren't practical, I would see no further point in adding to the discussion.

However, I would like to add that many of the points mentioned in self-defense to my statements to me are mostly of unconventional and unproductive which will not help our malaysian badminton team. If what is mentioned by members on their opinions of retaining the services of misbun sidek is what they believe will be of benefit to the national team, then so be it. I am not the one who's running the show around here, I am not the one overseeing the development of our national team.


I think Malaysia , much like England in badminton and other sports think they have a right to success based on the past. As Cheung says the game 20 years ago has no relevance to todays game. So like English players malaysians carry a burden of expectation based not on current talent but historical success. Rather than the AE singles win of Hafiz and md runner up this year being seen as major achievements they were seen as only stepping stones to bigger success which have proved beyond the players
Well said. Unfortunately this is the mentality in Malaysia who what I would describe play 'kampung' sports.

For now, I would hold back my opinions on the current state of the sports in Malaysia as this would be the last post for a long time concerning the matter. If you want to stay where you are right now then go with the 'practical' ideas which have been done before and forget the 'theoretical' or 'idealistic' thoughs which have not been experimented with before.

I also do not wish to add anymore philosophy or any of my opinions in this thread.

From what has been said, I feel I do not owe anyone an explanation for what I have said and why I have said that. These are just the opinions of a 17 year old lad who was bored at that time he found the thread.

mmm.

[jug8man]

Actually, there were grumblings from some BFer's at Misbun during the poor showing of the M'sian team during the Thomas Cup.

However, BAM did state their intention this year was the Olympics.

I find Cheekygen's statement enlighting. M'sia may underperform in the next 5 years and the underlying structure of producing badminton players needs changing.

i dont really see malaysia underperforming i the future. what i do see however is malaysia performing, as well with many other countries performing well/better than before. this is already seen in the olympics. the playing field is now more even than ever before. almost every one is a 'world beater' now and there is less monopoly of the games by 'badminton power nations'. this loss of monopoly in my view is healthy for the sport and perhaps may help the game grow (commercially and globaly?).


plus malaysia actually has a sport school to cultivate and develop sports (badminton included). it is the Bukit Jalil Sport School (BJSS) and has been running for years. so there is a solid development work/effort being done but where they go/what path they choose after school life plays an important role in the future of the sport in malaysia.

just a thought.

[Loh]

Yes, I tend to agree that the playing field is much more level than before and no one nation can now claim that it has a monopoly in men's singles and doubles, not even China because their best have been beaten at the world's most prestigious tournament, the Olympics. There are Indonesia, Malaysia, Denmark and South Korea which can measure up. Other less badminton-dominant countries are also catching up fast.

Certainly Malaysia is not really lacking in this department and it is not fair to place the blame solely on their coaches or other aspects of their training or preparation. Some have pointed out about the politics at BAM, about the inadequate junior programmes, exposure, funding, etc, yes this may partly be the case, but at the elite level, their national men players have often shared the international limelight.

There will always be ups and downs and China has been a victim of this. Having taken the TC stranglehold from Indonesia, China succumbed in the Olympics. They failed in all the men's events. It may be the case that their singles players peaked too early. Other reasons have also been proffered. Conversely, Indonesia recovered from the TC debacle to triumph at the Olympics! What a reversal of fortunes!

So China which seems to have prepared their players well and better than others has floundered. There seems to be everything at their players' disposal, yet they failed to live up to expectations.

That is why I believe that it is the player himself who has to bear the brunt of his own failure.

Malaysia will bounce back from their Olympics disappointment. Yes, changes willl be made, even in Indonesia's case and perhaps in other countries' badminton management and leadership as well, but there will always be success and failure thriving side by side. This is necessary to bring the game to a higher level.

But amidst it all, the player must not be distracted but remain focus on his dreams and turn them to reality! In the main, he is answerable to himself. :D

[colingsk]

I tend to agree with Loh's comments.

There is only so much a coach can do. At the end of the day, it is the player who would be playing and facing the opponent. The player would have been prepared in training - physically, mentally & tactically by the coach.

Having a personal coach is a good idea looking at what the other powerhouse are doing. Anyway, the player themselves must have the burning desire to excel and to become the champion expected. If the player is not good or champion material then he/she must leave. This can be identified either by the coach or the player himself if he/she is honest about it.

The BAM has been in shambles with the same head all this years. So a revamp is overdue here. We have many head coaches; big names if I may add so I don't think its the coach fault although all fingers will point at him as the scapegoat.

A proper roadmap to identify and nurture potential players during their school days must be there. Proper training and not to mention badminton clubs supported by the BAM to identify the late bloomers should be there also.

Really, I don't see this at all. Year in year out we only depend on the few players we have. There is no clear strategy to groom new players for replacement and backup.

Just my 2 cents comments.


Thanks for your interesting disclosure! :)

Your parents must be Malaysians and made sure you are born in in their own country and Selangor state as they have been in Brunei for more than 20 years and you are only 17 now. You must have been brought into the world during one of those annual home pilgrimages made by them! :D

I admire your patriotism and the manner you put forward some of your arguments although I cannot seriously buy all of them. ;)

I still maintain that in the final analysis, it is the player who has to answer for himself.

Although the time period is different, let me bring you back to the days of the first Thomas Cup held in 1949 at Queen's Hall in Preston, England. Malaya (Singapore was part of the team with Wong Peng Soon and Ong Poh Lim representing) stunned the badminton world when they beat Denmark
8-1.

Hitherto, no Asian team was known to be so strong as the All England, which was then the de facto world championship that started as early as 1900, was dominated by the West, principally players from England, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden and even the USA, with their most famous singles player, Dave Freemann. But since the appearance of the Malayans in 1949, it was the turn for Asians to dominate, with Denmark (particularly Erland Kops, 5 times champ and Morten Frost, 4 times) being the only European country to spoil the aspirations of the Indonesians, Malaysians, Chinese and Indians.

Of course one reason for the non-participation of the Asians in the All England during the early years was probably the lack of funds and the long distances they have to travel, often by sea. Yes, the first Malayan team had to brave the seas for many days (maybe a month!) to arrive in England in unfriendly cold weather in order to compete. Yet they demolished the Danish opposition 8-1. I don't think the Malayan players have better facilities or proper management than their Western counterparts at that time. Better coaches, probably unheard of! :)

Malaya went on to repeat the TC story in 1955 when they handed Denmark another 8-1 beating in Singapore. And what was more astounding was this same player, Wong Peng Soon. At age 37, I repeat 37, Wong put up a superlative display by defeating, I presume, a much younger Joern Skaarup in three sets (then it was called 'set' and not 'game' as is now the case)
15-5, 16-18 and 15-4. The next day, he followed up with another scintillating performance and showed tremendous fighting spirit coming from behind with a first set loss of 12-15 to whip the great Finn Kobbero 15-0 in the second. He wrapped up the third set and match, 15-7.

What I'm trying to emphasize is that the PLAYER himself makes the difference. Badminton maestro, Wong Peng Soon, is a shining example of sporting greatness for he lived for badminton. The limitations and shortcomings he faced during his time never quite affected him as he pursued his only goal and ambition to be the best badminton player in the world! :p