The biggest loser in the Athens Olympics

[Lau Kok Wei]

Without a doubt the biggest loser is Li yongbo. He must be embarrased by the fact that none of his charges managed to reach the podium of ms & md. Before the tournament started, he boasted that China will clean sweep all the five gold medals at stake. He really deserve it becos' of his arrogant ways. :D

[taneepak]

Without a doubt the biggest loser is Li yongbo. He must be embarrased by the fact that none of his charges managed to reach the podium of ms & md. Before the tournament started, he boasted that China will clean sweep all the five gold medals at stake. He really deserve it becos' of his arrogant ways. :D

Really? Where did you read about his boast of a clean sweep of 5 gold medals?

[Syaoran_Style]

Really? Where did you read about his boast of a clean sweep of 5 gold medals?
he said before olympics, china can take 2 or 3 medals

[LazyBuddy]

Without a doubt the biggest loser is Li yongbo. He must be embarrased by the fact that none of his charges managed to reach the podium of ms & md. Before the tournament started, he boasted that China will clean sweep all the five gold medals at stake. He really deserve it becos' of his arrogant ways. :D

1. The biggest loser??? For the head coach who got 60% of the gold???

2. He never metioned about 5 gold. He said 2 to be safe choice, with the chance of 3 or more.

3. Li Yong Bo is a smart guy, and he knows how much pressure he's facing. There's no way he will put himself on the "no way back" situation to guarantee 5 golds, not even if CHN MD and XD are 5 times better than current.

4. Don't understand why always like such issues: players under achieve, then coach is the 1st one to be blamed.

5. Poor LYB. With his fairly straight (ok, might be harsh sometimes) personality, he seems made enough "enemies" both on and off court... :rolleyes:

[Bresis]

if LYB is the biggest loser, wat about Misbun?? After speaking of the possibility of winning the first gold medal for Malaysia, the badminton team came home empty handed without a single medal :crying: who is worse? lyb or misbun? ;)

[jug8man]

if LYB is the biggest loser, wat about Misbun?? After speaking of the possibility of winning the first gold medal for Malaysia, the badminton team came home empty handed without a single medal :crying: who is worse? lyb or misbun? ;)

32 players........ only one winner. is it fair to say they were 31 losers?

the chance of getting the gold was there. but not everything happens according to plan. give them a break...........

[|R|S]

i think lyb placed too much pressure on his mens team. none of his players really played up to their normal standard this time. i can say for certain that chen hong cracked under pressure.

but next time, it'll be a different ball game altogether with the olympics in beijing! the fans are going to be MAD!

[cooler]

i think lyb placed too much pressure on his mens team. none of his players really played up to their normal standard this time. i can say for certain that chen hong cracked under pressure.

but next time, it'll be a different ball game altogether with the olympics in beijing! the fans are going to be MAD!

If the fans are going to be MAD, it would only add more pressure. The men will bomb even faster :D :p LOL

[flikflak]

I don't know why, but I really don't like Li Yong Bo :yuckies: since I first saw the sour face of him in TC/UC 1998

[Lau Kok Wei]

I don't know why, but I really don't like Li Yong Bo :yuckies: since I first saw the sour face of him in TC/UC 1998

Actually i'm still holding some grudge against Li yongbo. :)

Remember the 1992 Barcelona Olympics when he and Tian bingyi defeated our Cheah and Soo via gamesmanship. Looking back, i think that match probably cost us a medal as the malaysians would have gone on to proceed to the semi-finals with ease.

Never really forgive him since then.:mad:

[flikflak]

Actually i'm still holding some grudge against Li yongbo. :)

Remember the 1992 Barcelona Olympics when he and Tian bingyi defeated our Cheah and Soo via gamesmanship. Looking back, i think that match probably cost us a medal as the malaysians would have gone on to proceed to the semi-finals with ease.

Never really forgive him since then.:mad:

If only I could slap him, I don't like his military-like face expression :D

Is it true that LYB plans and determines which athlete to play in the WS Olympic final at Sydney 2000 and now, like that Ye and Gong rumour?? He is not fair and sportive if true, although the reason is to collect gold for China's ranking still quite acceptable. :) :(

[LazyBuddy]

A head coach's job is to get the best out of his players and coaching staff, to get as much award for his team (or nation) as possible. A coach is selected for his overall leadership and talent, but not necessary to be a fans' favorite.

To me, LYB did his job. Think about little things: How many coach actually doing shopping/cooking for the team, and being a taxi driver for his players using his own time? (quoted from WC2003) Of course, LYB is not everyone's friend, but who else could be??? :confused:

[Lau Kok Wei]

If only I could slap him, I don't like his military-like face expression :D

Is it true that LYB plans and determines which athlete to play in the WS Olympic final at Sydney 2000 and now, like that Ye and Gong rumour?? He is not fair and sportive if true, although the reason is to collect gold for China's ranking still quite acceptable. :) :(

Actually according to rumours these arrangements not only happen in the Chinese badminton but table tennis as well. I remember one incident also during the Olympics but table tennis this time. There was this chinese girl but i can't recall her name. She was ordered to surrender her semifinal match against a compatriot which she ignored. She went on to win the gold medal and was sacked from the national team.

[LazyBuddy]

Actually i'm still holding some grudge against Li yongbo. :)

Remember the 1992 Barcelona Olympics when he and Tian bingyi defeated our Cheah and Soo via gamesmanship. Looking back, i think that match probably cost us a medal as the malaysians would have gone on to proceed to the semi-finals with ease.

Never really forgive him since then.:mad:

Before I say something, please be sure you know what I am going to say is nothing personal.

Your thread title is "biggest loser", and try to provide reasons as CHN MS under achieve. I respect your point of view.

However, what I quoted here, is just your personal feeling regarding to a match 12 yrs ago. Just because your favorite lost to LYB...

Well, excuse me, who's more like a "loser" right now then? :confused: I mean, game is game, not just skill. You need to be smart, to use the rulez (of course, no rule is perfect), to use anything within the legal bound to help yourself. As long as the umpire did not whistle for a fault, go ahead...

[LazyBuddy]

Actually according to rumours these arrangements not only happen in the Chinese badminton but table tennis as well. I remember one incident also during the Olympics but table tennis this time. There was this chinese girl but i can't recall her name. She was ordered to surrender her semifinal match against a compatriot which she ignored. She went on to win the gold medal and was sacked from the national team.

Her name is He Zhili.

However, you only know 1 side of the story. The truth is, He Zhili happily received her teammate's "help" in earlier round, but once it comes to her own turn to give up, she ignored. After this, sooo many fans just felt she's no more a fan's favorite.

To me, if she really wants to do "true matches", fine, do it on the 1st day. Do it when she 1st ever being selected to a team. However, she did not. She received the favor (according to the rumors) when the result is favorable to her, but suddenly sneak attacked her teammate(s) when it's her turn to sacrifice.

To me, this is the biggest loser ever. :mad:

[Lau Kok Wei]

Her name is He Zhili.

However, you only know 1 side of the story. The truth is, He Zhili happily received her teammate's "help" in earlier round, but once it comes to her own turn to give up, she ignored. After this, sooo many fans just felt she's no more a fan's favorite.

To me, if she really wants to do "true matches", fine, do it on the 1st day. Do it when she 1st ever being selected to a team. However, she did not. She received the favor (according to the rumors) when the result is favorable to her, but suddenly sneak attacked her teammate(s) when it's her turn to sacrifice.

To me, this is the biggest loser ever. :mad:

No matter what happened then, i still feel it is such a shame if the rumours turn out to be true. I mean there shouldn't be terms such as 'sacrifice' or 'help' or whatsoever in sports.

Athletes should try their best competing against whoever.

Mind u, to me this is disgraceful and shame to the Chinese team.

[RealMad]

Her name is He Zhili.

However, you only know 1 side of the story. The truth is, He Zhili happily received her teammate's "help" in earlier round, but once it comes to her own turn to give up, she ignored. After this, sooo many fans just felt she's no more a fan's favorite.

To me, if she really wants to do "true matches", fine, do it on the 1st day. Do it when she 1st ever being selected to a team. However, she did not. She received the favor (according to the rumors) when the result is favorable to her, but suddenly sneak attacked her teammate(s) when it's her turn to sacrifice.

To me, this is the biggest loser ever. :mad:

I'm sorry but regardless of whose turn it was to "sacrifice" this goes against my every sporting principle. This is basically why I will never support a Chinese team in any competition.

I don't like the idea that any competitor can be asked to stand down from a possible win or upset just because another player is determined to have a better chance to go all the way to the championship and it would be better for that "better" player to not work hard so that they're more rested against someone from another country who had to battle at every match to get to where they are.

I don't like the idea that Chinese scouts are going around picking people according to how well they match the ideal physical characteristics necessary to excel in a sport and not according to how much they actually want to play and excel.

Most of all, I don't like the idea of subjugating a person's will, even if it's for "the good of the mother land". When I hear of these tactics used by China (and they use it in all sports, not just badminton), it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I mean true, they are communists, so for them their behavior should be lauded and appreciated. You won't get my vote for it though.

[flikflak]

Her name is He Zhili.

To me, if she really wants to do "true matches", fine, do it on the 1st day. Do it when she 1st ever being selected to a team. However, she did not. She received the favor (according to the rumors) when the result is favorable to her, but suddenly sneak attacked her teammate(s) when it's her turn to sacrifice.

To me, this is the biggest loser ever. :mad:

hehehe I got it, so whatever considered as cheating before and after the game never bring "fairness feeling" to all people that involved or not! :D
So, all the people involved in the cheating plan are all L.O.S.E.R basically. Now we can conclude LYB is... a LOSER? hahaha. jk.

It depends on your own point of view. And moreover it doesn't matter to debate about unnecessary things, loser or not we do not know 100%, the fact is LYB managed to succeed his plan, and it cannot be changed forever.

If you want to make him being a loser, you must defeat his dream team like what happened in JO 2004 and TC 2002. I hope Indonesian, Danish, and Korean players could give some very big lessons to LYB....

[Qidong]

if LYB is the biggest loser, wat about Misbun?? After speaking of the possibility of winning the first gold medal for Malaysia, the badminton team came home empty handed without a single medal :crying: who is worse? lyb or misbun? ;)


I agree. I think Misbun is going to lose his job, but not LYB.

[stumblingfeet]

No matter what happened then, i still feel it is such a shame if the rumours turn out to be true. I mean there shouldn't be terms such as 'sacrifice' or 'help' or whatsoever in sports.

Athletes should try their best competing against whoever.

Mind u, to me this is disgraceful and shame to the Chinese team.
Consider the Tour de France, where the US postal team members sacrificed their own chances to win to help Lance Armstrong win all of those times. Is that shameful and disgraceful?

Badminton is an individual sport, but athletes also arrive at the Olympics as a single team, representing the same country. LYB probably would like to maximize the glory for his team, by bringing back the most gold and overall number of medals. In certain cases, it may be best for him to have certain matchups and combinations in his favour in order to achieve that goal. Winning 3 golds, and 5/15 medals - definitely not the loser.

Personally, I think it is most disappointing for the Malaysian team.

[bluejeff]

Biggest loser?

I would say people who missed good matches are all losers.....especially in the US, NBC has little respect to badminton. They cut and cancel badminton programs very frequently, they don't show you a replay when there is a commercial, and They only show the US team at earlier rounds, which is less exciting than other players.

So, people in the US do have a hard time on watching badminton matches on TV, the coverage is small, the quality isn't great, and even the commentators are annoying sometimes.

Hope they could improve some........if that would ever happen

[LazyBuddy]

Athletes should try their best competing against whoever.



To the fans, yeah, we paid the ticket, we want to see the best. Is that possible everytime? No...

Let me ask you the same question, if you are not just a fan, but the player. Would you give out your best to beat other players to capture the honor for ur team/nation, or you want to use all ur energy on ur fellow teammates, and further limit the chances for both ppl in next round? :confused:

[LazyBuddy]

I'm sorry but regardless of whose turn it was to "sacrifice" this goes against my every sporting principle. This is basically why I will never support a Chinese team in any competition.

I don't like the idea that any competitor can be asked to stand down from a possible win or upset just because another player is determined to have a better chance to go all the way to the championship and it would be better for that "better" player to not work hard so that they're more rested against someone from another country who had to battle at every match to get to where they are.



1. If you agree to enter a "system" (i.e. agree to take turns when it counts), you should apply your word when it counts. If you don't like the idea at all, say "NO" before join the team. Not like say "yeah" all the time, when you receive the favor, but suddenly acting like "being honest" or "respect sportsmanship" when you have to give up something...

2. It's the players hardwork result into "better chance". Not the "better chance" make a "joe club" type of players like me to be good enough to win WC.

3. Damn, do I have to repeat all my debates in "CHN strategy" thread(s) again???
3.1 More rest? I can counter argue say, player A got 3 tougher opponents in earlier round, but player B got 3 weaker opponents in earlier round, so, when A plays B is not fair???
3.2 Want your tickets worth? Let's sue pay-per-view for boxing matches. We pay $30 looking forward for 12 round close match, but so many of them ended in 2 rounds with KO... Maybe I should ask for $25 refund???
3.3 Same as 3.2, if NBA games, a team leads by 30 points, you will see all rookie vs bench for the next 20 min or so. But where are my favorite all stars? Where are the last second buzzer beaters??? Well, too bad...

Ok, ok, I don't want to repeat all my old "stories"... :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

I'm sorry but regardless of whose turn it was to "sacrifice" this goes against my every sporting principle.


In baseball, there's "sacrifice fly" and "sacrifice bunt" as a very useful and widely used strategy. Perfectly legal and useful when you are desprated for a run.

If a "true" sportsman like you in this situation, what you do? Be man enough to "let me take every swing for a Home Run"??? Plz...

In other sports, like gymnastics, cycling, racing, diving, etc, there's strategy of "sacrifice lead", means teammates take the "un-necessary" lead in earlier stage(s) / round(s) to bring up extra mental pressure on opponents. Either they will lose their cool to make mistakes, or they will waste their energy when it NOT counts. This way, the team's main player will have better chance to win.

So, to you, they all shameless ppl, since that's not "sportsmanship". But, are they really not true competitors??? :rolleyes:

[RealMad]

In baseball, there's "sacrifice fly" and "sacrifice bunt" as a very useful and widely used strategy. Perfectly legal and useful when you are desprated for a run.

If a "true" sportsman like you in this situation, what you do? Be man enough to "let me take every swing for a Home Run"??? Plz...

In other sports, like gymnastics, cycling, racing, diving, etc, there's strategy of "sacrifice lead", means teammates take the "un-necessary" lead in earlier stage(s) / round(s) to bring up extra mental pressure on opponents. Either they will lose their cool to make mistakes, or they will waste their energy when it NOT counts. This way, the team's main player will have better chance to win.

So, to you, they all shameless ppl, since that's not "sportsmanship". But, are they really not true competitors??? :rolleyes:

That's not the same thing and you know it. Baseball sacrifices are for the good of the team, which you're on. So at least you're helping your own cause. If I were to make a smash for placement so that my partner can make the easy kill on the weak return, that's fine and that's much closer to the argument you're making.

For my team to stand down though before the match even starts however is a different matter altogether. That's why there was such a big stink in F1 when Barichello actually stopped before reaching the finish line to allow Schumacher to pass him for the win. That's just wrong.

It's even more wrong in badminton where no one else plays the game with national team tactics. Lundgaard & Eriksen are not going to let Paaske & Rasmussen walk by them if they meet in the semis, just because the danish coach thinks that Paaske & Rasmussen would be better in the finals and they could use an easy match beforehand.

Even the lowliest underdog, so long as they're in the competition, has the right to compete. Otherwise, what's the point?

[sillybiscuit03]

There are two kinds of international competitions, ones that stress individual achievements and ones that stress national achievements. The Summer Olympics competition obviously belongs more to the later. When some one wins the gold in Athens, you are more likely to hear it reported as "Malaysia captures gold", or "Hong Kong wins gold medal" or something like that. In this respect, it is valid, acctually smart for any head coach to maximize his national team's chance to gold. I found it nothing immoral for a head coach to ask members of his team to lose so someone else who has a better chance for gold to move on. I bet this might have happened in the match between Zhang Ning and Zhou Mi in the WS semis. On the other hand, when the gold medal match is between members of the same team, the coach should stay clear of it. This was indeed what happened at the WD final. So LYB was OK on this aspect at this Olympics competition.

As whether he is a loser or not. He is not. But I fault him on two issues: Firstly, he should have chosen Xia XZ in stead of Chen Hong. LYB underestimated the psychological stress and immense pressure his young men were facing. The pressence of oldie Xia XZ would have helped. Chen Hong has weak mental control, the fact that in both of the 3-sets matches that he won he lost the second game by a wide margin reflects on that. Secondly, he did not prepare Lin Dan well enough for the first match. If you thought Lin Dan deserved some spanking, do it before the competition, not after!

[libra]

There are two kinds of international competitions, ones that stress individual achievements and ones that stress national achievements. The Summer Olympics competition obviously belongs more to the later. When some one wins the gold in Athens, you are more likely to hear it reported as "Malaysia captures gold", or "Hong Kong wins gold medal" or something like that. In this respect, it is valid, acctually smart for any head coach to maximize his national team's chance to gold. I found it nothing immoral for a head coach to ask members of his team to lose so someone else who has a better chance for gold to move on. I bet this might have happened in the match between Zhang Ning and Zhou Mi in the WS semis. On the other hand, when the gold medal match is between members of the same team, the coach should stay clear of it. This was indeed what happened at the WD final. So LYB was OK on this aspect at this Olympics competition.

As whether he is a loser or not. He is not. But I fault him on two issues: Firstly, he should have chosen Xia XZ in stead of Chen Hong. LYB underestimated the psychological stress and immense pressure his young men were facing. The pressence of oldie Xia XZ would have helped. Chen Hong has weak mental control, the fact that in both of the 3-sets matches that he won he lost the second game by a wide margin reflects on that. Secondly, he did not prepare Lin Dan well enough for the first match. If you thought Lin Dan deserved some spanking, do it before the competition, not after!

Agree with you on the first point. In 'team' competitions like olympics it is generally the country that gets the glory... no matter who wins. However when you consider the World Championships, that should be another matter alltogether. So was what LYB doing wrong? Not this time but I think he was wrong at the WC and will continue to be wrong in future competitions.

I don't quite see why you are putting Chen Hong down? Wasn't he the only chinese MS player to get past the early rounds? And looking at his draw, getting past Kenneth Johanssen and Lee Chong Wei in successive matches is no easy feat. Shon SM has defeated him in their last meeting so perhaps it is his style of play that troubles Chen Hong? Also, don't forget that Shon went on to win the silver medal. Personally I thought Chen Hong did well.

[cooler]

agreed. If XiaZX was chosen over LD, bao or chen hong, we would never be certain of the outcome either. Everyone love to have a second shot or a replay but that's only happen in video game, a fantasy world. ;) Live & learn from the results and move on.

[LazyBuddy]

That's not the same thing and you know it. Baseball sacrifices are for the good of the team, which you're on. So at least you're helping your own cause.

My baseball example is more like "why I should sacrifice my own stats? why can't next batter do the fly or bunt"...

If everyone just think about "me, me, me" or "ok, for the team, but let someone else do it..." or "I like my team, i like myself even more, so, let me keep it win win by let others be 'dumb'", etc... For such above, you know what I am going to say... ;)

[LazyBuddy]

agreed. If XiaZX was chosen over LD, bao or chen hong, we would never be certain of the outcome either. Everyone love to have a second shot or a replay but that's only happen in video game, a fantasy world. ;) Live & learn from the results and move on.

I agree. It's not fair to compare the real outcome with the "what if"...

I am a Xia fan, but I agree that if Xia got selected but under-achieved, then many Chen's fans will start the same argument like, "see, LYB is stupid, he should send Chen instead of Xia..." :rolleyes:

[pptam]

if LYB is the biggest loser, wat about Misbun?? After speaking of the possibility of winning the first gold medal for Malaysia, the badminton team came home empty handed without a single medal who is worse? lyb or misbun?

I think the biggest "loser" is the head coach for Russia Women Volleyball team.

I haven't see this demotivator in this games. He scolded his team in front of the camera. He shouted at them during the games. He even yelled at their name those who make mistakes during the games however all of them pretend they never heard him.

Even the panel members who sat behind him was shaking his head.
I think this coach is a big "loser."

You are not motivating your team and also destroy their pride and confidence to play.

Russia went down to China 3-0.

The captain for the team get scolded like nobody business....

I wonder why he still can sustain his job....

[ants]

A coach can make or break an athlete. Look what happened to Taufik when Mulyo left the stable... Taufik then was in a slump , and i'm sure as a coach Mulyo did felt bad about it.. when When Coach Mulyo came back and train Taufik.. see what happens?

Anyway its not fair to say that LYB is a loser.. he played his part as a coach.. same goes to Misbun.. it takes 2 hands to clap. Its the understanding between Player and Coach.

[Smashguy]

The biggest loser, IMO, is us, the audience. The regulation only have 8 seeds and force the top player combat in very early stage which not in their top form. In fact, if the final was Taufik vs Lin Dan, it would be very interested and excited. Of course, I'm not the fan of Chinese National Team and I'm glad Taufik defeats Korean but I'd like to see two energic players combat for Gold medal.

[fishmilk]

The biggest loser, IMO, is us, the audience. The regulation only have 8 seeds and force the top player combat in very early stage which not in their top form. In fact, if the final was Taufik vs Lin Dan, it would be very interested and excited. Of course, I'm not the fan of Chinese National Team and I'm glad Taufik defeats Korean but I'd like to see two energic players combat for Gold medal.
well said and agreed

[abedeng]

Of course, I'm not the fan of Chinese National Team and I'm glad Taufik defeats Korean but I'd like to see two energic players combat for Gold medal.
Yeah, that was the only final that was kind of disappointing, Shon was totally at sea. Taufik/Wong CH or Taufik/Gade matchup would have been a better final. What can we say, the draw was unkind to some players, but Taufik and the people of Indonesia still deserved the Gold Medal. Wonder how many Indonesians in Indonesia got to watch that game?

[dlp]

If we consider what most fans consider the two premier events, md and ms then clearly korea are the massive winners, with an unexpected silver in ms and gold, silver in md.

In the womens events there is only really two singles players and one doubles pair who are competitive with the chinese. Camilla is gone and unless Hallam can make a big improvement , she is already 29, the future looks bleak for european womens events. So the chinese did well and met expectations, with 2 golds and a silver, although they would have expected the all chinese final in ws. The question is with the lack of competition do these medals really mean as much?

The mixed event was the one event everyone thought they knew the winners of, surely one of the most shocking results in the olympics was the "unbeatable" kim/ra losing, credit to Denmark. Yes, Zhang/Ling beat the pairs they had to but they had a remarkably easy draw.

Denmark also are big losers however, their mens doubles pairs, holding the world and ae titles failed to medal and Gade also crashed out, meanwhile Camilla's retirement will sadden all european fans.

[other]

The question is with the lack of competition do these medals really mean as much?


Of course they still mean as much....I mean its not the CHN player's fault that they got 1,3,4....they still had to beat their opponents, who i'm sure tried hard. They were just better, and therefore shouldn't they deserve the medals?

it's like saying that there's a lack of compeition in the sailing in the olympics and people like ben ainsile's gold don't mean as much.

[dlp]

There may be a lack of competetion in sailing, I don't know:)

Surely not all events are equally competitive. For instance England are no.2/3 in rugby and cricket. There are only 4/5 nations in the chase in these sports and they are relatively minor sports in those countries so do I think that England being no.1 in thsoe sports equates to being no.1 in football or badminton singles, not at all.

In swimming one guy can have a shot at 8 medals, basically off the same training, stroke etc, the difference in distance betwen 100m, 200m, 400m has little effect. Do I think a swimmer winning 3 golds, 2 silver etc is worth more than 1 gold in badminton,of course not.

In rowing we always win a gold in the mens, but we pick the discipline we have best chance of winning and put our best rowers in that, one year the fours, another the pairs while the best rowers from other countries may be in the eights.

Similarly you cannot really compare success in the womens events for china to success in the mens events. In the womens singles there are only 5 (at a stretch) players capable of winning the title , in the doubles the top 4 pairs probably won't lose in year to anyone outside the top four.

In the mens events anyone of the top 15 players/pairs can win and many world class players don't even make the qualifying for olympics

I'm not saying it is china's fault or that those players don't deserve every reward or don't work as hard, just that the events aren't as competitive that the chance of success for those players is far higher, and that as a fan or coach you would have an expectation of winning those events.

[edwin]

Remember the 1992 Barcelona Olympics when he and Tian bingyi defeated our Cheah and Soo via gamesmanship. Looking back, i think that match probably cost us a medal as the malaysians would have gone on to proceed to the semi-finals with ease.
I wasn't following badminton closely at that time. What happened in Barcelona? How did LYB and Tian Bingyi defeat Chean and Soo bia gamesmanship?

[abedeng]

I wasn't following badminton closely at that time. What happened in Barcelona? How did LYB and Tian Bingyi defeat Chean and Soo bia gamesmanship?
They used some gamesmanship and delaying tactics to throw off Cheah/Soo's momentum. At that moment, the Chinese were trailing in the 2nd game after having lost the first.

Since Cheah/Soo were still young at that time, it affected them much like Jane Hancock's effect on Choong/Lee. Plus being raw meant they did not yet learn energy conservation. In the decider, it was all China.

Had Cheah/Soo won this, they could have gone on to the final cos their next hurdle at the semis would be Eddy Hartono/Gunawan, with whom they enjoyed a good record. Doesn't matter, the best pair in the world (Professor Park/Kim) would still have won gold anyway.

[jug8man]

They used some gamesmanship and delaying tactics to throw off Cheah/Soo's momentum. At that moment, the Chinese were trailing in the 2nd game after having lost the first.

Since Cheah/Soo were still young at that time, it affected them much like Jane Hancock's effect on Choong/Lee. Plus being raw meant they did not yet learn energy conservation. In the decider, it was all China.

Had Cheah/Soo won this, they could have gone on to the final cos their next hurdle at the semis would be Eddy Hartono/Gunawan, with whom they enjoyed a good record. Doesn't matter, the best pair in the world (Professor Park/Kim) would still have won gold anyway.

delaying tactics, throwing opponents off their rhythms and etc is not wrong as long as they are in the legal boundaries of the game. actually it is an essential part of any sport especially badminton since it involves players confronting each other and not like bowling or golf where one players performance does not directly effect the other players.

badminton is more that just an athletics sport where the one with the best ability will win. badminton is still very much a game, and in winning games it involves alot more than just ability. it is the person that 'plays' the game the best that comes out on top..... ala Triple H :D

any player that fails to maintain their own composure is at fault and not others who take advantage of it.

wake up Malaysia!

[seven]

Delaying the game is forbidden, it's in the rules!

[jug8man]

Delaying the game is forbidden, it's in the rules!

to what extent? it is not really specific. did you see any delaying tactics in the olympics? i saw many. sometimes it was even mutual acts of delaying tactics (example= MS bronze match). sometimes it wasnt (example= XD final)

example of delaying tactics such as 'purposely falling' to get a breather for a mop job, changing shuttles when its actually still 'good', questioning line judges calls, and such. these are not direct delaying actions and gives the umpire a reasonable doubt whether the player is on purpose delaying the game. if there is reason for doubt most referees can not simply jump to the conclusion that the player is delaying the game. this is because it is the players right to request for shuttle change, mopping the floor, 'time out', and question line calls. even though the request gets rejected.

and crime is only a 'crime' (means recorded as a crime) when you are caught doing it, and in badminton it is when you are penalized by the umpire.

then if you go in deeper into the actual situation, every umpire/referee have difference in level of strictness and diff 'boundaries' to determine if one has commited an offence or not. if a player can 'read' an umpire's boundaries, the player may take advantage of that situation without getting a penalty. its all very subjective of course.........

just stating what i see going on in tournaments. coz everything is not all that black and white. just my opinion :)

cheers

[seven]

to what extent? it is not really specific. did you see any delaying tactics in the olympics? i saw many. sometimes it was even mutual acts of delaying tactics (example= MS bronze match). sometimes it wasnt (example= XD final)
I haven't yet had chance to watch the matches :(, I was only giving a general statement about the rules! :)


example of delaying tactics such as 'purposely falling' to get a breather for a mop job, changing shuttles when its actually still 'good', questioning line judges calls, and such. these are not direct delaying actions and gives the umpire a reasonable doubt whether the player is on purpose delaying the game.
Questionning line calls IS forbidden too! The umpire can give a yellow card for this!


if there is reason for doubt most referees can not simply jump to the conclusion that the player is delaying the game. this is because it is the players right to request for shuttle change, mopping the floor, 'time out', and question line calls. even though the request gets rejected.
It's up to the umpire to judge whether the player is delaying the game on purpose or not. He is the one who takes the decisions.


and crime is only a 'crime' (means recorded as a crime) when you are caught doing it, and in badminton it is when you are penalized by the umpire.

then if you go in deeper into the actual situation, every umpire/referee have difference in level of strictness and diff 'boundaries' to determine if one has commited an offence or not. if a player can 'read' an umpire's boundaries, the player may take advantage of that situation without getting a penalty. its all very subjective of course.........

just stating what i see going on in tournaments. coz everything is not all that black and white. just my opinion :)

cheers
Yes, umpiring is subjective, that's what makes it so difficult!
And of course players search for boundaries, there is a clear sort of game between the players and the umpires...

The best example I have is Nabil Lasmari : he's the french number one (though he's crap) and he is famous for being the first player of badminton history to receive a black card... mainly due to delaying the game in the first place!
Why does he have this habit of delaying the game? (except for his poor stamina of course ;) )
Simply because most french umpires are incompetent and always let him delay the game as much as he wants! There are no boundaries for him! :p

[dlp]

On the subject of umpiring it amazes me how poor the umpires are at these major finals, I mean if these are the best umpires what are the others like?

Example: Chinese bending rules in mixed final, ignoring umpire, causing umpire to pressure lineman into changing call

WS final, On gold medal point mia gets debatable call, protests (not as much as Zhang in mixed) Mia gets yellow card, on match point!

AE md final...well you know

Umpires simply stick the rules and don't get involved in the match unless you have to, don't start getting involved at the crucial part of the match, set up the boundaries at the start and stick to it.

[jug8man]

I haven't yet had chance to watch the matches :(, I was only giving a general statement about the rules! :)


Questionning line calls IS forbidden too! The umpire can give a yellow card for this!



LOL: lots of love

is it forbiden? goes to show how many times ive read 'laws of badminton' :D
even if so, you have to agree that it still happens alot in matches without being penalized/enforced right?

and about the umpires, sometimes they are made to look just like toothless (and clawless) tigers dont you think?


cheers

[seven]

LOL: lots of love
I don't know where you got that (funny) one but LOL has always meant "Laughing Out Loud". (I don't see why we would write "lots of love" each time there is something funny!! :p:p:p )



is it forbiden? goes to show how many times ive read 'laws of badminton' :D
even if so, you have to agree that it still happens alot in matches without being penalized/enforced right?

and about the umpires, sometimes they are made to look just like toothless (and clawless) tigers dont you think?


cheers
I've already seen players getting a red card for questionning line calls.
If the umpire doesn't react, the player may manage to put pressure on linesmen so that they advantage him, that's why it's forbidden! (it's an attempt to take an illegal advantage on the opponent)

[jug8man]

I don't know where you got that (funny) one but LOL has always meant "Laughing Out Loud". (I don't see why we would write "lots of love" each time there is something funny!! :p:p:p )


I've already seen players getting a red card for questionning line calls.
If the umpire doesn't react, the player may manage to put pressure on linesmen so that they advantage him, that's why it's forbidden! (it's an attempt to take an illegal advantage on the opponent)


i dont use LOL for funny things but actually use it for showing i understand with what you mean/or what you are going thru. something about showing friendship camaradie and stuff. i get this often elsewhere though :confused:

yeah but howabout non confrontational questioning line calls. which means the player asks/complains/queries the umpire not the linesman about the 'dubious' line calls made. i dont believe this directly intimidates the linesman. also i still think the player has a right to fight for the right if he feels he's getting the shorter end of the stick.

LOL :D

[seven]

yeah but howabout non confrontational questioning line calls. which means the player asks/complains/queries the umpire not the linesman about the 'dubious' line calls made. i dont believe this directly intimidates the linesman. also i still think the player has a right to fight for the right if he feels he's getting the shorter end of the stick.

LOL :D
In fact, you are allowed to ask the umpire to have a linesman changed if you think he is giving bad calls.
You are just not allowed to question the calls that have been made.
(anyway the umpire doesn't have the right to change the linesman call so it would be useless)

[jug8man]

In fact, you are allowed to ask the umpire to have a linesman changed if you think he is giving bad calls.
You are just not allowed to question the calls that have been made.
(anyway the umpire doesn't have the right to change the linesman call so it would be useless)


actually the latest development is that IBF is experimenting by allowing the umpires to change the linesman call if neccesary. for how long before they finally decide on what's best im not sure.

LOL

[jump_smash]

In fact, you are allowed to ask the umpire to have a linesman changed if you think he is giving bad calls.
You are just not allowed to question the calls that have been made.
(anyway the umpire doesn't have the right to change the linesman call so it would be useless)

Well said Seven, that is what the Referee is for. Players have right to call for Referee

Regards

Stuart