are elbow wraps prohibited in badminton?

[bigredlemon]

if not, why isn't everyone using them? They add considerable power during the smash, and has very little cost to the game. (They effectively strength the triceps, which is usually involved in power movements rather than delicate movements.)

I've never used wraps before being injured, and how much power they add (when its tight enough) blew me away. Its like i'm even stronger while injured than while i was healthy!

Supposedly, you gain as much as 30% more smash power!

[Nanashi]

i have a very vague idea of what you are talking about.... could someone post a diagram of what an elbow wrap looks like??


and i'm sure there is SOME form of drawback, or some reason they aren't used (or maybe they are illegal), or else internationals would be using them...

i mean, 30% more smash power??

[Feng_MP-100]

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!!?:eek:
IF IT REALLY ADDS 30% SMASH POWER< THEN I MUST GET ONE!!!:D MUAHAHAHAHA

[Neil Nicholls]

Supposedly, you gain as much as 30% more smash power!
says who? (he says, with a large dollop of scepticism)

[bigredlemon]

Says me. It biases your elbow towards extension, which effectively ads tricep explosive strength and hence smashing power. The disadvantage is weaker underhand clears... but there's more than enough strength there to get the bird to the other side, so extra strength is wasted anyway.

The elbow wraps acts like a spring to explode your elbow from contraction to extension. Its use is limited in other sports, but I see no restrictions in the badminton rule books...

Elbow wraps are just a long bandage-like elastic band that is wrapped around the elbow. Its different from elbow support in that in addition to concentric support, it also adds tricep support.

[paulchow]

Says me. It biases your elbow towards extension, which effectively ads tricep explosive strength and hence smashing power. The disadvantage is weaker underhand clears... but there's more than enough strength there to get the bird to the other side, so extra strength is wasted anyway.

The elbow wraps acts like a spring to explode your elbow from contraction to extension. Its use is limited in other sports, but I see no restrictions in the badminton rule books...

Elbow wraps are just a long bandage-like elastic band that is wrapped around the elbow. Its different from elbow support in that in addition to concentric support, it also adds tricep support.i'll try that soon :) I'm also skeptical as to how helpful that could be for overheads, since it inhibits arm motion. Wouldn't arm wraps be very popular in sports such as baseball and badminton by now if they have such positive effects?? :confused:

[fishmilk]

i just use a long wristband that's used for baseball and pul it up to my elbow, seems to do the same thing

[cooler]

if not, why isn't everyone using them? They add considerable power during the smash, and has very little cost to the game. (They effectively strength the triceps, which is usually involved in power movements rather than delicate movements.)

I've never used wraps before being injured, and how much power they add (when its tight enough) blew me away. Its like i'm even stronger while injured than while i was healthy!

Supposedly, you gain as much as 30% more smash power!

i dont see why not either since knee wraps are been used.

[kwun]

i have seen elbow wraps being used. but more for support after an injury. so no, they are not illegal.

[bigredlemon]

and now the meaty question... who has access to one and a gym to try this out? I'm talking about the wraps used specifically for boosting strength, but the ones for injury prevention. And to test whether the extra power gain is offset by the decreased accuracy. (I presume accuracy would decrease since it's not natural.)

[Rai_Korei]

If it is one of those things to help relieve pain from "Tennis Elbow," it does not, or should not add power, I'd say. Before when I had "Tennis Elbow," I had something to put around my elbow to make it feel better. But fact is, if you get Tennis Elbow, the way you produce power from strokes are incorrect, or inefficient because you are using brute force. It might feel like you are comfortable, and able to use more strength, so you may think you are gaining more power. But after my coach friend helped me with me with strokes, it eventually got better, and less brute force with more technique, I got better smashes. But that is IF it is the Tennis Elbow thing you are talking about.

[bigredlemon]

If it is one of those things to help relieve pain from "Tennis Elbow," it does not, or should not add power, I'd say. Before when I had "Tennis Elbow," I had something to put around my elbow to make it feel better. But fact is, if you get Tennis Elbow, the way you produce power from strokes are incorrect, or inefficient because you are using brute force. It might feel like you are comfortable, and able to use more strength, so you may think you are gaining more power. But after my coach friend helped me with me with strokes, it eventually got better, and less brute force with more technique, I got better smashes. But that is IF it is the Tennis Elbow thing you are talking about.
i'm not famililar with what you are talking about, but i'm 100% sure elbow wraps will not help with tennis since tennis swings relies on biceps rather than triceps except for the backhand. If anything, i'd imagine wraps to hurt tennis play more than it will help.

Wraps do add tricep strength since the elastic pulls along the elbow, basically imitating an external muscle.

[Mag]

Interesting. However:

Q: Does elbow extension contribute much to the power of an overhead shot in badminton?

A: No.

Or to put it another way, if you find it does, go work on your hitting technique!

:p

[Dill]

Can you post a picture/diagram of what you mean, I find myself thinking tubed bandage or one of those adjustable vibration dampners you wear after a tennis elbow injury that you can tighten almost like a tournaque.

Now I'm a bit :confused:

[ReVoLuTiOn44]

Wat about WristBands?

[bigredlemon]

Interesting. However:

Q: Does elbow extension contribute much to the power of an overhead shot in badminton?

A: No.

Or to put it another way, if you find it does, go work on your hitting technique!

:p
if you lock your elbow perfectly straight, how much smashing power would you have? I'd recon far less.

The triceps is one of the strongest muscles in the upper body, and its entire strength can be transfered to the movement of the upper arm and racquet (which is relatively light.)

The upper arm is about 0.9 kg. It's mass centre of rotation about the elbow is about 6 inchs (from elbow). A racquet is about 0.1g with a mass centre of rotation 12 inches (from wrist). The tricep is about 5 times stronger than the wrist muscle.
thus 0.5x2^2=2

The smash's ready position is when the tricep is maximally stretched. It's end position is when the tricep is maximally extended. Thus the tricep contracts through its entire range of motion throughout a smash. The same can be said of the wrist. So the above holds true during a badminton smash.

Thus 66% of a smash's speed comes from the triceps.

if you aren't using your triceps in your smashes, then I think you shouldn't point at others until you check your own form. I do not claim to have the perfect smash form, but I do know the triceps are very important.

[bigredlemon]

Wat about WristBands?
as in sweat wrist bands? The elastic is too weak to add any strength. And even if it could, it wouldn't add any strength to the wrist muscles since you are pushing away from a linear alignment during a smash, whereas wrist wraps will be pushing your hand towards alignment, thereby taking away from your swing speed.

How to tell if you have elbow WRAPS:
wrap it around your elbows. Hold your arm up high straight. Relax your muscles. If your arm doesn't fall down and hit your head, you have elbow wraps. (You still still have complete freedom of movement of your arm, except you now have about 10 to 50lb of force biased along the extension of triceps.

[Neil Nicholls]

(You still still have complete freedom of movement of your arm, except you now have about 10 to 50lb of force biased along the extension of triceps.

That's a lot of work for your biceps to be doing then, all game long, if you ever want to play a shot that requires you to bend your elbow.

[Neil Nicholls]

The tricep is about 5 times stronger than the wrist muscle.

which wrist muscle?
flexor, extensor, pronator, supinator?

[Faisal]

if not, why isn't everyone using them? They add considerable power during the smash, and has very little cost to the game. (They effectively strength the triceps, which is usually involved in power movements rather than delicate movements.)

I've never used wraps before being injured, and how much power they add (when its tight enough) blew me away. Its like i'm even stronger while injured than while i was healthy!

Supposedly, you gain as much as 30% more smash power!

I was just watching the recording of the Uber cup finals and noticed
Zhang Jiewen wearing one of these in the doubles match against Korea. So no, they are not prohibited :)

[bigredlemon]

That's a lot of work for your biceps to be doing then, all game long, if you ever want to play a shot that requires you to bend your elbow.
mass of a muscle increases exponentially as strength increases linearly. Even presuming there is a perfect gain-to-loss ratio of 1:1, you would still see a benefit from being able to attain a higher strength-to-power ratio for both muscles on average.

But reality is even better, as we never fully contract our biceps so that our hand is touching our shoulders. We do fully contact our triceps during a smash though. So the gain is much greater than the loss.

[bigredlemon]

which wrist muscle?
flexor, extensor, pronator, supinator?
There's about a dozen wrist muscles. I'm talking about the combined strength of the 3 or 4 muscles, as I do not have the means to test the strength of individual muscles of the wrist.

[Neil Nicholls]

The smash's ready position is when the tricep is maximally stretched. It's end position is when the tricep is maximally extended.


as we never fully contract our biceps so that our hand is touching our shoulders.

How do we maximally extend the tricep without fully contracting the bicep?

[Mag]

if you lock your elbow perfectly straight, how much smashing power would you have? I'd recon far less./.../
if you aren't using your triceps in your smashes, then I think you shouldn't point at others until you check your own form. I do not claim to have the perfect smash form, but I do know the triceps are very important.
Easy now!

I didn't say the elbow has no function in overhead strokes. I said that the elbow EXTENSION action doesn't contribute as much as one might think. There are several electrokinetic studies that reveal that shoulder rotation, forearm pronation and body rotation are the key contributors to the power production of overhead shots. When it comes to wrist and elbow, it is mainly their respective angles upon shuttle impact that is important.

[bigredlemon]

How do we maximally extend the tricep without fully contracting the bicep?
that word should be contracted, not extended.

Should be pretty clear what i meant if you read the sentence. I was having difficulty choosing between "arms extended" and "tricep contracted" and ended up writing one while thinking of the other.

[bigredlemon]

Easy now!

I didn't say the elbow has no function in overhead strokes. I said that the elbow EXTENSION action doesn't contribute as much as one might think. There are several electrokinetic studies that reveal that shoulder rotation, forearm pronation and body rotation are the key contributors to the power production of overhead shots. When it comes to wrist and elbow, it is mainly their respective angles upon shuttle impact that is important.
I have my doubts about the amount of power body twisting can generate given the relative large mass the body is, and the small size of the muscles moving them. Perhaps the importance they play is in putting your body into the position of optimal energy transfer, making the strength you do have more maximally exerted. (This can be evidenced by small players that can execute powerful smashes using good form, and muscular players that can have a very weak smash if bad form is used.) Thus the muscles you refer to are might not necessarily be the power generating muscles.

[Neil Nicholls]

that word should be contracted, not extended.

Should be pretty clear what i meant if you read the sentence. I was having difficulty choosing between "arms extended" and "tricep contracted" and ended up writing one while thinking of the other.

I should have been more judicious with the bits I quoted.

In one sentence you say
"The smash's ready position is when the tricep is maximally stretched."
and in another
"we never fully contract our biceps so that our hand is touching our shoulders."

they appear to disagree with each other

[bigredlemon]

I should have been more judicious with the bits I quoted.

In one sentence you say
"The smash's ready position is when the tricep is maximally stretched."
and in another
"we never fully contract our biceps so that our hand is touching our shoulders."

they appear to disagree with each other
the bottom quote was taken in the context of discussion on energy loss during strokes that involve the biceps, but to be more clear: we never fully contract our biceps during the power stroke.

The full contraction of the biceps in moving to theready position of the smash is what stores the power in the wraps. So when you execute the smash, you effectively get the power of both the triceps AND biceps in that smash (something that is otherwise physiologically impossible.)

the negative of that is executing a stroke in which the bicep is contracted. This prevents full underhand power since some of that power is going into the elastic band. But for elastics, the resistence linearly increases with the degree of stretch. So with a slight contraction of biceps (which is what happens in typical underhand strokes) there is very little resistence, so you get almost full underhand power. Only in full contraction of biceps where there be a lot of energy loss (and energy gain when you move to return to equalibirum.) But there isn't significant energy loss because underhand strokes do not need the biceps to be fully contracted. Even in full strokes, all of the speed is already generated by the time the biceps are flexed half way... any additional movement is just the followthrough. (If you are still adding power past the half way point, then unless you are using bad form, you are hitting the bird straight up.)

This is why is such an advantage to else elbow wraps. The benefits are very large compared to the disadvantage.

[Neil Nicholls]

OK
I don't believe your figures of 30% improvement, or 66% of smash power comes from triceps. They just seem far too high. I don't think comparing the strength of the muscles is relevant. You also have to consider the axis being rotated around, and how quickly. The forearm can pronate through 90 degress faster than the elbow can extend through 90 degrees. There is a lower moment of inertia involved in pronating the forearm than in extending the elbow, because the mass of the arm is closer to the axis of rotation during pronation.
I think this dominates more than the triceps.

But I'll accept you have seen some sort of effect.

Does it have a negative effect on the delicate shots?

[bigredlemon]

OK
I don't believe your figures of 30% improvement, or 66% of smash power comes from triceps. They just seem far too high. I don't think comparing the strength of the muscles is relevant. You also have to consider the axis being rotated around, and how quickly. The forearm can pronate through 90 degress faster than the elbow can extend through 90 degrees. There is a lower moment of inertia involved in pronating the forearm than in extending the elbow, because the mass of the arm is closer to the axis of rotation during pronation.
I think this dominates more than the triceps.

But I'll accept you have seen some sort of effect.

Does it have a negative effect on the delicate shots?
the axis of rotation and inertia were the basis of my calculation above. Both presumed perfect energy transfer. Since the forearm needs to rotate as you say above, then that would make it less efficient and bias the calculation so that the strength of the triceps is understated. In reality I don't think it'll have any significant difference. For the portonation of the forarm bit: i presumed the forearm weight was zero as compared to the racquet weight, when in reality it doesn't weight zero and hence would also underestimate the importance of triceps. So the two factors you mentioend would mean the effect of wraps should be even greater.

as for effect of delicate shots, it depends upon how bent your elbow is. The straighter it is, the less effect there will be. I cant say for certain since delicate shots haven't been my strength in a long time.

[other]

Hold your arm up high straight. Relax your muscles. If your arm doesn't fall down and hit your headow...:crying:
mmm...i guess i dont have any arm wraps on then:D

[dlp]

An interesting idea, ...not as crazy as first glance might appear..

Preparation for the smash involves bending the arm at the elbow around 90 degrees, on impact the elbow is not straight for most players.

Most other shots are played with some degree of flex at the elbow at impact, which any such wrap might hinder, however if the wrap was set up so that it only stretched from an angle of say 10 degrees from straight this could be possible..

I too doubt significant increase in power of the smash would be achieved by increasing tricep strength in a top player, as stated while the extension from the elbow plays a role it is the forearm in which most speed is generated.

Your theory that that by storing the elastic energy in the bending of the joint to increase strength on the extension of the joint is sound, however if this was easy you would see all athletes that had to jump employing a similar band on the knees.

The only example I can think of which directly correlates is the use of a bench shirt in powerlifting. This is a tight fitting shirt which is worn by elite powerlifters, in pulling the bar down to their chest they have to stretch the shirt, adding to the weight that can be pressed back up.

I think it is possible that such an aid could be developed for increasing smash power marginally, however I am highly skeptical if it would in the overall game be useful.

[takahira]

I was watching All England 2000 Finals for Mens Doubles, both teams were from Korea. I can't remember who is who, but 1 of the players was wearing an arm + elbow support of sort. so I think they are actually legal since they were using it at a Grand Prix tournament like the one in All England.

I had to use one periodically, specially after shovelling a ton of snow in Toronto. (damn snow...) I don't find a significant increase in terms of power, it actually protects from losing power.

[laki_indo]

so... does elbow support give as much power as elbow wrap?

[SAMUDERAINDIA]

I m suffering from tricep pain especially when i did nt do proper warming up.
I would lost power whenever the pain comes.

So i tried to use this elbow support, PJ elbow support, which can be adjusted.

It seems working very well, it sort of hold my elbow when I do hard smash. I dont have the pain anymore, and I have more consistent power.

I think it works by holding elbow in "correct" position so that it prevent bicept/tricep from getting strain if the elbow "twist"

If you have proper technique and sufficient warming up, i dont think this support necessary

[markham player]

Are you talking about those wraps for tennis elbow or golf elbow?

[SAMUDERAINDIA]

like this one
http://www.sportskids.com/superstore/Football/Protective+Gear/Elbow+Support/p/367699.html?mktid=froogle&ovchn=FRO&ovtac=CMP&ovcpn=Football&ovcrn=367699-Stromgren+Adjustable+Elbow+Support

[SAMUDERAINDIA]

like this one
http://www.sportskids.com/superstore/Football/Protective+Gear/Elbow+Support/p/367699.html?mktid=froogle&ovchn=FRO&ovtac=CMP&ovcpn=Football&ovcrn=367699-Stromgren+Adjustable+Elbow+Support

only better quality, tha brand is projaga

[exalted]

OP,

Can you please give an example of the elbow wrap you are recommending? I'll go out and purchase one, as I was looking to get some arm-protective gear anyway...

30% increased smash power... heheh..