I'm perhaps opening a can of worms here, but I am so puzzled by the outcome of the All England MS final.

I think that most of us were banking on a win for Lin Dan, but Chen Hong decided to surprise us all. I have never considered Lin Dan "unbeatable", and although he has not been very successful during recent years, Chen Hong is a formidable player.

So why do I have a bad taste in my mouth? Perhaps because of the circumstances? Perhaps because I happen to believe that NOBODY is good enough to beat a trying Lin Dan by 15-2. Think of it: is it likely that ANY of the players currently in the top ten (I am sure that could be extended) would lose a game 2-15?

As I see it, Lin Dan must have given up the fight. For the sake of reasoning, let's assume that was the case. Then several questions follow: was he injured? If not, did LYB order him to throw the match (it wouldn't be the first time he ordered such a thing)? If so, why? Chen Hong is currently #5 in the world ranking, so there is no obvious need for him to gain more points for the WC. And besides, he was already in the final, and I think the difference in collected ranking points is just over 1000 between the AE winner and the runner-up. This hardly justifies a "fixed" match, even looking at it with LYB's eyes.

I would really appreciate to hear more from those members that actually saw the match. So far, all the reports I have read directly or indirectly suggest something strange was going on. Although he would never suggest foul play, even IBF's Raphael Sachetat describes Lin Dan as "another man" after the 1st game. To me, Lin Dan seem like the kind of guy that, if injured, he'd rather retire the match than lose like this. Some reporters have suggested "tiredness" or "lack of motivation", but then how does that happen during a 90-second break after having won the 1st game convincingly by 15-8? And it seems that Chen Hong didn't really change his game, he just kept on doing what he did in the 1st game...

Does this smell as bad as I think it does, or am I just being paranoid?

:eek:

I totally agree Mag if you read my report. Chen Hong had nothing to trouble Lin Dan in the first set, and yet manages to turn it around and win 15-5 15-2. Something not right there.

Are they trying to get Chen Hong up to number 2 in the rankings or something? Is Lin Dan almost assured of being #1 come the time for the worlds draw? I'm not sure, but something was definitely not right.

Not having seen the match and just jumping to conclusions based on the scorelines, I'd venture to guess either Lin was injured, team orders or a combination of the two. As awful as it sounds, I hope it was the first case because team orders, especially strictly for manipulating points purposes, are going to destroy the sport. It would be similar to having Barrichello slowed down almost to a complete halt metres from the finish line so that Schumacher could take over the win and score 2 extra points. Even the most diehard fans would turn off and go seek another competition to watch. And that will be disastrous to the future of the sport.

If IBF doesn't already have a policy against team orders, IMHO, they should. They should also have a policy on investigating allegations of team orders with a body specifically formed for that purpose that have full sanctioning powers.

Team orders aren't going to go away, but much can be done to keep them to an absolute minimum.

Hi there,

I was also in Birmingham of Fri, Sat and Sun and that was amazing experience for me, especially since that it was my first tournament of that size seen live. I will try to write something more later on, but since the English is not my first language, it might be difficult to share all my thoughts.

About the Lin Dan vs Cheng Hong match. From what Lin Dan showed in QF and SF (especially in the third set against Wong CH – he outplayed him totally), the only reason that could prevent LD from taking the title again, was – in my opinion - either injury or fixed match.

Arguments for injury – only two and weak ones:
1. I saw Lin Dan holding his back in one or two occasions during THAT match, but there was no situation on court when he could be injured
2. Lin Dan had his legs plastered and during the ceremony just after the match (Lin Dan acted ridiculous when he enter the podium when speaker announced that the trophy will be given by Japanese president of Yonex) he was doing something with this plasters on his legs (he might have just removing it) – but it did not look like any injury

Therefore I must admit that after seeing LD in his three consecutive matches I don’t think he might have been injured during the final.

Arguments for fixed match (I don’t know the reasons, I just can tell you my observations):
1. LD was superb during his previous matches. The scenario was usually the same. In the first set he was up. In the second was down struggling with motivation, and in the third – he simply outplayed his opponent – especially Wong CH in the SF. It was the same in the final during first two games, but finally, it was Chen Hong who outplayed LD in the final game.
2. The first set was amazing. Both players played superbly with a clear advantage on the Lin Dan’s side. He was producing majority of winners and it looked quite clear that LD was dictating the pace. After the first game finished a different LD went on court. His clears were not long enough, his drop-shots were not so sharp and smashes were out just to often.
3. Lin Dan also behaved strangely. He was not concentrated and after the match finished he looked like his mind was far away form the NIA.
4. The Lin Dan’s body language during his previous matches and during the first set against Chen Hong showed his self-confidence, fighting spirit and will for win. After the first game of the final, he looked resigned, his lighting moves appeared to be slower and it was simply a different LD.

Taking into consideration all what I saw during these three days, I must say that due to some strange reasons the MS final was of the low standard. It is difficult to prove that the match was fixed, but my observations make me think that.

regards
dzgdz

Went to look at the world rankings. Chen Hong is there in 5th place. 6th and 7th placings are quite far behind. If it is team orders, the reason could be seedings.

...... feel so sad ......

I had similar suspicion about this match result too but since i didn't follow nor watch it i didnt want to make allegations. To have LD blowout like that is very puzzling. Even the score point spread of each set is puzzling to me.

Yes I think the result was set with the world champs seeding in mind. Clearly the higher the 2nd and 3rd chinese are the more "control" the team will have in deciding the outcome, we all remember Birmingham 2003 and the chinese tactics.

What about the WS? I havent seen the match but XIe didnt make the team for Athens yet beat Zhang in two??

This is why I tell people not to go on finals day, 3 all chinese finals is not good for the spectator, well the educated spectator anyway.....

I also didn't see the MS Final directly, but from what I read here and also what I thought...seems that this match has already fixed before. It is very very strange that LIN DAN gave up easily especially in the final set 15-2, it was an amazing score. Almost noone can do that against him. Especially in 11 minutes the score in the 3rd set was already 14-1 for Chen Hong..impossible for a player like LIN DAN.....

I still remember the Chinese tactics before the olympic games 1992. At that time Liu Jun (3rd MS single was not in the qualification list of olympics 1992, out of 8th ranks before AE 1992), but since China wanted to have 3 players at the Olympics 1992, then the arrangement happened whereas Wu Wenkai gave up to Liu Jun in SF and after all Zhao Jianhua, who was the best player at that time, even gave up in final to Liu Jun....

This is not a sport anymore if it was true that LIN DAN's fail is arranged already...I hope this is not true, but reasoning that LIN DAN is injured is more unreasonable for me.
Hmmm.....maybe this is a tactic for world championship 2005 seeding or...?
STRANGE :eek:

O my Dear LIN DAN, hope you are not disappointed of this...hope that you can make a great job again after this, take as much title as you can :) ....and be a golden couple again with Xie Xingfang.
For LYB, if so, please let your players play like the way they play.....
ZHONG GUO JIA YOU !!! LIN DAN GO GO GO !!!:)

I also didn't see the MS Final directly, but from what I read here and also what I thought...seems that this match has already fixed before. It is very very strange that LIN DAN gave up easily especially in the final set 15-2, it was an amazing score. Almost noone can do that against him. Especially in 11 minutes the score in the 3rd set was already 14-1 for Chen Hong..impossible for a player like LIN DAN.....

I still remember the Chinese tactics before the olympic games 1992. At that time Liu Jun (3rd MS single was not in the qualification list of olympics 1992, out of 8th ranks before AE 1992), but since China wanted to have 3 players at the Olympics 1992, then the arrangement happened whereas Wu Wenkai gave up to Liu Jun in SF and after all Zhao Jianhua, who was the best player at that time, even gave up in final to Liu Jun....

This is not a sport anymore if it was true that LIN DAN's fail is arranged already...I hope this is not true, but reasoning that LIN DAN is injured is more unreasonable for me.
Hmmm.....maybe this is a tactic for world championship 2005 seeding or...?
STRANGE :eek:

O my Dear LIN DAN, hope you are not disappointed of this...hope that you can make a great job again after this, take as much title as you can :) ....and be a golden couple again with Xie Xingfang.
For LYB, if so, please let your players play like the way they play.....
ZHONG GUO JIA YOU !!! LIN DAN GO GO GO !!!:)
if i were arranging something, i'd make it as real as possible, especially only for a single match. even if lin does not want to cooperate, chen would still have a lot of chances to make the score seemingly reasonable. WCH lost to lin in the third set at 2(or 3):15. it is not unusual to have a very unbalanced game even if two players have similar ranking and try hard.

This is why I tell people not to go on finals day, 3 all chinese finals is not good for the spectator, well the educated spectator anyway.....

but it might be a good thing from the coach and team point of view... :rolleyes:

Interesting report and interviews with the AE MS-Finalists (Chen Hong & Lin Dan) about "The Match"!

I'm afraid that it's in Chinese but perhaps someone here with sound English could kindly translate it for you guys.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/p/2005-03-14/09431448247.shtml

Regards,
ken

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2005-03-14/09461448266.shtml


Interesting report and interviews with the AE MS-Finalists (Chen Hong & Lin Dan) about "The Match"!

I'm afraid that it's in Chinese but perhaps someone here with sound English could kindly translate it for you guys.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/p/2005-03-14/09431448247.shtml

Regards,
ken

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2005-03-14/09461448266.shtml


Now you have quite a few info from Chinese press (sports.sina.com) and 'Says' from the finalists. So I leave it to you guys to judge "The Match" - think again :crying:

Ken

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2005-03-14/09491448290.shtml


Now you have quite a few info from Chinese press (sports.sina.com) and 'Says' from the finalists. So I leave it to you guys to judge "The Match" - think again :crying:

Ken

Or, of course, it could be as simple as LD had a slight injury, and the Chineese team felt it wasn't worth the risk of making it worse by pushing it to the max in an all-chineese final with the Japan Open, and World Championships coming up shortly :-)

/Twobeer

I haven't seen the match but based on what I have read in the forum and the report Ken posted, I couldn't find any strong evidence to support the match being fixed.

My English isn't good so I would just highlight some keypoints in the report
1. Chen Hong also thought it's not like Lin Dan to give up so early in the 3rd set.
2. Lin Dan said he felt tired after playing German Open and All England and he made a lot of errors (i.e. cross court smash from the back).
3. Li Yong Bo said Chen Hong performed really well. He was consistent and made very few mistakes. On the other hand, Lin Dan cannot follow Chen Hong pace from the second game onwards. Basically, Chen Hong was in total control.

Some personal thoughts:
1. If Li Yong Bo want Chen Hong to win, then the Bao vs Chen match could have been fixed as well. What's the point of exteding the game to 3 sets 74mins (15-13, 12-15, 4-15)?
2. Chen Hong is in good form. He beat Lee Chong Wei in 2 sets whereas Lin Dan struggled a bit in previous games against Wong Choong Han and Lee Hyun Il.

I was at Birmingham during the match and I felt that Chen Hong just out played lin dan. lin dan was picking everything of chens in the first set but chen changed his game slightly and extended the rallies with a lot of punch clears, dictating the pace and was just a class above lin dan. lin dan isn't ubeatable and I think you should give chen some respect for a classy performance.


Plus why try to get chen hong up the rankings when gade and jonassen are above him by about 3000 points.

Also Bao Chunlai is ranked above chen hong and has a narrower margin between himself and jonassen so why not fix bao verses chen so that bao can get the points.

All in all, I saw the match and thought that chen hong was definately the best man on court, he said he wanted to "prove his worth" to the coaches and he did.

I was there for the whole week, and Lin Dan did not impress me as much as I thought he would with his play, he seemed to lack concentration in the 2nd set of all his matches, if you look at his 2nd set scores (4, lost, 11, lost, lost and lost).

Chen Hong played excellent the whole week, he really deserved all his wins. He was definately the inform player of the tournament, Lee Hyun Il was also good.

I really hope there is not a chinese conspiracy, even though I used to believe that there was, along the lines off, whoever wins the first set, wins the match. This was axed as soon as I saw all the Chinese 3 setters :o

why not fix bao verses chen so that bao can get the points.
Easy, because bao didn't make the final.
Sad if there is a fix. :(

I was not there, but at German Open and observed several all Chinese matches. My impression is without exemption that the players who deserved it won.

The outstanding example is the match Chen Hong vs. Chen Jin.
In addtion, Chen Hong and Lin Dan have already 10 tournaments in their ranking points. So the difference will be minimal, assumed that Lin Dan should have won the finals.

Last, but not least we all know Lin Dan's statement in 2003 when WC was held in NIA. Lin Dan said that he could be the real winner of WC 2003. In a finals match Lin Dan will never give up again as he is now accepted as the No. 1. That's sure. So let's stop discussing on this "conspiracy" theory.

i, all feelings aside, don't feel that there was any prior planning to that final match.

i never noticed any major change/ difference in lin dan except perhaps in the last few points of the match when i couldn't imagine how lindan would be able to level up the score, he didn't seem to bother giving his best anymore.

as some of you point out, the only possible motive for a set-up was for ? .. ranking purposes. that doesn't make sense, you answered yourselves.

so is the mystery for real?

what did that article from sina.com say anyway? ken, you told us to think again..

Of course I was surprised that Lin Dan should lose so convincely to Chen Hong in the second and third games. It did cross my mind whether Lin just simply gave the crown to his good friend and same Fujian native as perhaps a "wedding present", but on closer examination, it seems unlikely.

Remember Lin has beaten all the others, some excellent players as well, before the Final. Therefore, in my earlier post, I concluded that it must be the injuries he has sustained in the process, particularly during his SF rubber encounter with WCH, that has led to his downfall, especially when he has to meet a past AE Champion and compatriot who knows a great deal about his game. But someone attributed all these (the bandages, tapes on the knees)as bluff to camouflage their real intentions.

Now if Ken's report that Lin has admitted to being really tired after the German Open, then his loss to Chen should be no fluke nor fixed. I looked at my tape-recording of that match again last night and was simply marvelled by the fluidity and ease that Chen managed to annihilate Lin with fast and sharp clears and drops to all the four corners of the court, punctuated by 'body-hugging' net plays and his effective smash. Lin was made to scurry madly around to try to retrieve them and his mobility was actually relatively slower than before. Indeed Chen was in masterful control!

Is the match really fixed? If you think so, consider some of the following points that some posters have enumerated:

1. LYB would prefer Lin to win since Lin is his favourite trainee (so I thought it was reported).

2, Scoring additional points for Chen to ensure his participation in this year's World Championships seems to have little effect or impact. Maybe World Ranking for seeding purposes would, in the sense that a higher ranked player can avoid meeting the better players in the earlier rounds.

3. If Lin intended the AE crown as a wedding present to his good friend Chen, he could also give him a more personal gift with his AE winnings.

4. For prestige, WR and international tournament purposes, a professional player would always want to stay on top. I think Lin is no exception as the World no.1.

5. On a more personal basis, I'm sure Lin would want to win to prove how good he really is to his girlfriend Xie Xingfang, who became the best women singles player of the AE tournament. Chen and his fiancee, Gao Ling, were the golden couple instead.

So, I have to conclude that there was never any foul play. Chen won on merit and thoroughly deserves his AE crown! :D

Or, of course, it could be as simple as LD had a slight injury, and the Chineese team felt it wasn't worth the risk of making it worse by pushing it to the max in an all-chineese final with the Japan Open, and World Championships coming up shortly :-)

/Twobeer

since so many here have gave their opinions, so here's mine, and is very similar to that of twobeer. I dont think LYB had instructed LD to lose but i'm sure LD had kept LYB updated about his physical condition, especially if it's injuries related. I'm also sure LYB likely gave LD advice and possible options to LD. I think this is an appropriate conduct of any coach, to give the best advice to his/her athletes, especially a star athlete.

If LD didnt value about this year WC, LD would had gone for broke or at least go all out and try to wrap the match up in 2 games. Maybe the pain had gotten worst and LD may had chosen the less riskier option. The score of the 3rd game is quite indicative what choice had LD had chosen. Is this fixed? It's hard to say but i doubt LYB really told LD to fold the match for WC seeding reason.

Chen Hong has been up on that stage four times already. He has to win the championship title because if he lose it again, that would be his third defeat in what is considered as the world's most perstigious badminton tournament.

And to prepare Chen psychologically for the upcoming world championship and also in terms of seedings, he needs the ranking points more than Lin Dan whose first position isn't really threatened by the other players. Frankly speaking, I dare not believe anyone in the world currently can beat Lin Dan 15-2. Therefore, I believe the match was pre-fixed.

Chen Hong has been up on that stage four times already. He has to win the championship title because if he lose it again, that would be his third defeat in what is considered as the world's most perstigious badminton tournament.

And to prepare Chen psychologically for the upcoming world championship and also in terms of seedings, he needs the ranking points more than Lin Dan whose first position isn't really threatened by the other players. Frankly speaking, I dare not believe anyone in the world currently can beat Lin Dan 15-2. Therefore, I believe the match was pre-fixed.

You seem to have too high a regard for Lin Dan. ;) Lin has been brought down to earth before and this time by a victor who is no less inferior technically and knows his game plan better than others. And as you've put it, Chen wants to prove a point, having been in the AE Finals four times before, but winning only once. So that desire to win must have been a very strong self-motivating factor for him.

I think we have seen in the past that no matter how good a player is, he can't win them all, unless he is superhuman. Remember, Lin had been stretched to the rubber twice in this AE. Chen himself was once a supreme singles player but he still succumbed. And if Lin is injured, he is all the more prone to defeats by even lower ranked players than Chen Hong.

Let's see whether Lin can rebound from this defeat and when, and whether his injuries are all made up to fool us. :)

It's sad if it was pre-fixed, but if it's pre-fixed, why did't they fix a closer score? I would say at their level it would be easy-piecy to fool those amateur eyes like mine:p :D with a seamingly more heated competition.

So I tend to believe it was not pre-fixed - whatever.

Top players make mistakes too, and mistakes can be caused by anything - things we don't know.

Don't know whether anyone follows the board game 'Go' competitions, the un-beatable Korean Lee Chang-ho was beaten by Zhou He Yang, a Chinese top player in their first game, because Lee made a mistake in 'Endgame' or 'Shou guan - 收官', or 'Shuban' at which he is supposed to be the best in the world.

If Lin Dan was injured they would have simply pulled him out, with future events in mind.

If they can get Lin and Chen Hong to 1 & 2 rankings before the worlds they will be seeded in separate halfs which is preferable.

The sad thing is that because of past match fixing we can never really enjoy an all chinese match without the thought entering our heads,... am I being cheated?

It is very simple IMO. I dont believe there was any match fixing.

Anybody who has seen chen play in WC 2003, OG2004, an other matches previousley will see he is a different player to what he was before.

Previousley he was very nervous, made many unforced errors in tight situations. His net play became poor. His defence was really bad (for a top player). He often played well in the first 1.5 sets, but then became overly reliant on his attacking smash and netplay. Shon seung mo in 2 cases knew exactly what to do. He onlyhad to do two things, move in for net kill, and move side to side for smash. At one point in OG 2004 QF he kill the shuttle from the net after CH 1st return.


Watch him this AE I think you can see all those weaknesses were corrected. His defence was a match for bao, Lin, and LCW. His nerve held, and there was very few unforced errors. He stuck to his game plan unerringly, even in sight if victory. He had variety of strokes, played more drops. LCW was especially caught out by this. almost everytime he was expecting smash when lifted, but he became off balance when a drop/clear came. he was frequently wrong fotted by CH serve being flicked, and his pushes off the net.

Lin had the speed to retrieve this play in the first set. But when he lost his quick speed, chen got his attacks back, and made no errors. Lin had nothing to give. He couldnt attack (CH good defence), he couldnt counter (CH consistent in control), he could not rally (couldnt be in control, no ideas to be in control himself.)

CH simply didnt give him anything to go at. He is a Superb athlete, with superb techniqu in footwork and strokes. If he (as seems so this tourney) has got over his mental stability, and defence. Then he is the unbeatable one. Lin has only his confidence+speed, who would bet could play at the top the longest? (hint: CHEN HONG)


Reading Andycmg post about why he beat BCL, the answer is the same, Bao was too quick in first, Chen kept to the plan, gave no chances, and he seems to win without doing anything different.

Chen hong won because he played better than lindan, i watched the final , seriously chen hong really deserved to win it...Lindan is no superman, he can lose it too, he is nt unbeatable....to say lindan purposely lose to chen hong, or there is a team order, its v unfair to chen hong, we shldnt take away his credit......

I just cannot believe the kind of mad hand-wringing to explain Lin Dan's defeat. 'He injured his leg'; 'he had strapping at his wais'. 'He was ordered to throw the match.' 'He threw it because there's no point aggravating his already injured back.' What flight of fantasy and nothing related to how Lin Dan and Chen Hong actually performed.

Even before the finals, LD had been playing 'indifferently' by his standards. I speculated that top players get off days and others are getting to know how to stop him. I also opined after the SF that Chen would not want to repeat the F loses to Hafiz and Gopi.

So here it is 1) He wasn't in top form 2) He under-estimates his opponents - does not respect them 3) His form deserted him suddendly after set 1. 4) He pannicked when 3) happened, 5) He did not play percentage when he needed it. 6) Chen was more determined to win.
I watched the match. How he lost: 1) He was digging out drop shots and many did not get over; 2) forehand smashes from his left back corner to CH's left forecourt went wide. 3) He lost his anticipation and could not get to some drop shots, smashes or feints or was there but too late. 4) He rushed shots which missed or lofted short for Cheng to kill. 5) The worse the score, the more he pannicked and the worse he played. 6) Chen played his solid game: moving him back forth, side to side, high and low; LD rushed around mostly missing or mishitting. 7) He was shaking his head incredulously at Chen's ability to outplay him, and frowned in surprise at his errors. This is not what you expect a faked loser to do. 8) Lin had few serves as Chen scored 5-10 points in one service in both sets 2 and 3.Noticed how quick those sets were?
There, do we have at least 30 points for C Hong to win legitimately without conspiracy theory or illness excuse? Yhttp://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

I just cannot believe the kind of mad hand-wringing to explain Lin Dan's defeat. 'He injured his leg'; 'he had strapping at his wais'. 'He was ordered to throw the match.' 'He threw it because there's no point aggravating his already injured back.' What flight of fantasy and nothing related to how Lin Dan and Chen Hong actually performed.

Even before the finals, LD had been playing 'indifferently' by his standards. I speculated that top players get off days and others are getting to know how to stop him. I also opined after the SF that Chen would not want to repeat the F loses to Hafiz and Gopi.

So here it is 1) He wasn't in top form 2) He under-estimates his opponents - does not respect them 3) His form deserted him suddendly after set 1. 4) He pannicked when 3) happened, 5) He did not play percentage when he needed it. 6) Chen was more determined to win.
I watched the match. How he lost: 1) He was digging out drop shots and many did not get over; 2) forehand smashes from his left back corner to CH's left forecourt went wide. 3) He lost his anticipation and could not get to some drop shots, smashes or feints or was there but too late. 4) He rushed shots which missed or lofted short for Cheng to kill. 5) The worse the score, the more he pannicked and the worse he played. 6) Chen played his solid game: moving him back forth, side to side, high and low; LD rushed around mostly missing or mishitting. 7) He was shaking his head incredulously at Chen's ability to outplay him, and frowned in surprise at his errors. This is not what you expect a faked loser to do. 8) Lin had few serves as Chen scored 5-10 points in one service in both sets 2 and 3.Noticed how quick those sets were?
There, do we have at least 30 points for C Hong to win legitimately without conspiracy theory or illness excuse? Yhttp://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

yes, in this case, evidence isn't strong enough to suggest fixing. It just that china (LYB) had a past record of these tendency and therefore, such speculation are expected when involving 2 competing chinese pairs, whether it's MS or WS.

Yes, CHong does deserve the credit of beating LD, especially in such convincing manner but we also know that these 2 are top players and with LD losing by wide margin like 15-5 and 15-2 does raise some speculation. ;)

I talked to a former chinese top player in my club and he said they had quit fixing the matches. He knows a lot of the players in the chinese national center and therefor statement should be true...

No wonder there were so many 3 games matches between 2 Chinese pairs in AE and German Open which was rare in the past. Good for the sport. :)

I talked to a former chinese top player in my club and he said they had quit fixing the matches. He knows a lot of the players in the chinese national center and therefor statement should be true...

Many people have been saying this since OG2004. I also think there is credibilty to it. Just watch the games and you can see they are trying their best.

In AE2005 It semed like it was the opposite of win 1 win all, since Chen bt Bao after losing first set, Gao/Huang beat Yang/Zhang after losing first set, and Chen Bt Lin after losing first set!

Since you guys give your opinion. Here is mine :

It is not like Formula 1. The first driver has to win, the second driver is a "spare part", like Schumacher and Barrichello.

So, I don't think it was a team order from LYB.
I don't believe it is a conspiracy.
CH won just because he played better than the young LD. He deserved to win the title. Since the first match, he played very consitance.
In the other side, LD is not unbeatable, even peoples named him as a "super Dan".

After so long waiting, CH has an "hungry" of title. He also want to prove that he is one of the best. Psychologically he will fight for his honour, and maybe also for the upcoming WC.

Since you guys give your opinion. Here is mine :

It is not like Formula 1. The first driver has to win, the second driver is a "spare part", like Schumacher and Barrichello.

So, I don't think it was a team order from LYB.
I don't believe it is a conspiracy.
CH won just because he played better than the young LD. He deserved to win the title. Since the first match, he played very consitance.
In the other side, LD is not unbeatable, even peoples named him as a "super Dan".

After so long waiting, CH has an "hungry" of title. He also want to prove that he is one of the best. Psychologically he will fight for his honour, and maybe also for the upcoming WC.

yes, again the mental aspect is what drove CH to succeed. I think CH was more mentallay prepared (have a game plan) to handle LD.

I also think there is something not quite right about that final I mean, Lin Dan completely dominated the first game showing clear signs that he was fit enough and was determined to win. But like alot of people said Chen Hong didn't really change his game in the second game yet Lin Dan was getting beaten badly making alot of easy mistakes. It's really sad if it was fixed because Lin Dan deserved that title.:(

I also think there is something not quite right about that final I mean, Lin Dan completely dominated the first game showing clear signs that he was fit enough and was determined to win. But like alot of people said Chen Hong didn't really change his game in the second game yet Lin Dan was getting beaten badly making alot of easy mistakes. It's really sad if it was fixed because Lin Dan deserved that title.:(

Are you saying CH doesnt deserve it?? You should consider that he went in the final for the 4th time and how he played trough out the whole tournament.

He also had one of the hardest draft Vs Bao Vs Shon Vs Lin.

Give him some respect for god sake! I just watched the 2nd and 3rd set and Chen Hong was just a better player than Lin. (Love his jump smash)

By the way WCH also beat Lin in the 2nd set however lost the third one (15-1). Why can it happen to Lin Dan?

CH deserve all the credit and I'm so happy that he won against someone like Lin Dan.

I think Lin Dan lost it rather than Chen Hong won it. As long as Lin Dan gets some rest, I think he'll be back on form for later this year. In the mean time, a rejuvinated Chen Hong and consistent Bao can hold the fort.

I did mention that Chen Hong looked hungrier and leaner for the title, full credit to him for coming back. Chen's rallying game in my opinion is nowhere as good as Bao or Lin Dan. In fact during the Bao vs Chen match, Bao exposed a lot of Chen's weakness. Bao should have took that third game from Chen..why he did not, maybe because he was tired :confused: I would consider Bao's defence to be very good, it's only the smash at the body that really troubles him.

One clue to how Lin Dan plays, I think he was quoting as saying that it didn't really matter as long as the title was China's ;):rolleyes: end of story

On a slightly different angle, I can't stop but laugh at how silly and egoistic Li Yongbo is- please read bold below (3rd and 4th last para). He must have thought that he is the real star of AE05!
---------------------------------------------------

March 14, 2005
BADMINTON
Chen upsets good friend Lin in final

Winner outplays error-prone world No. 1 to regain title he won in 2002

BIRMINGHAM - WORLD No 1 Lin Dan lost his title at the All-England badminton championships when he was beaten in the final by Chen Hong, his close friend from the same province of Fujian.

Lin looked well on course to atone for his startling first-round failure in the Olympics when he won a relaxed and skilful first game, but unaccountably fell apart after that to lose 15-8, 5-15, 2-15.

Suddenly, mistakes flowed from his racket and Chen hurried to 7-2 and then take the second game in only 15 more minutes. The third game was a rout as Lin, who may have been suffering from knee problems, played well below par.

Chen also found increasing opportunities for his famous smash, hitting the deck from a great height more and more often and hurtling to victory in a disappointingly one-sided third game.

It meant that Chen, who had reached his third All-England final in four years, regained the title he won with a far more spectacular performance in the 2002 final.

'I feel even more excited than when I won it last time,' said Chen, who only woke up two hours before the final and had no time to practise. 'I feel it is a new era for me. I am mentally stronger than before.

'I feel that we are equally strong players and I won because I am a little bit stronger mentally today. I felt that Lin Dan also wanted it badly but that I had the upper hand.'

Despite that, there were critics who thought the contest lacked sparkle. Chinese players are reputed to play exhibition-style matches against each other on occasions, and Chen was asked whether it was difficult to play a friend.

'Because we are good friends we are happy with each other whoever wins, but we don't wish each other success before we play,' he said. 'If we do that, we will not be very successful players!

'Although we are good friends I think that deep down you always want yourself to win. Success comes with hard work and dedication.'

As a mark of respect, Chen did not want to start the interview until Chinese head coach Li Yongbo had been allowed to come and sit down.

Instead, Li made a mild protest by refusing to come for an interview, walking out of the room and saying that no one had asked him any questions during the short interview a few minutes earlier with the loser.

China were already sure of winning three of the five titles, having supplied both finalists in the women's singles and doubles as well.

Later China became certain of four titles when Cai Yun and Fu Haifeng won the men's doubles in straight games against Denmark's world champions Lars Paaske and Jonas Rasmussen. -- AFP

On a slightly different angle, I can't stop but laugh at how silly and egoistic Li Yongbo is- please read bold below (3rd and 4th last para). He must have thought that he is the real star of AE05!
---------------------------------------------------



As a mark of respect, Chen did not want to start the interview until Chinese head coach Li Yongbo had been allowed to come and sit down.

Instead, Li made a mild protest by refusing to come for an interview, walking out of the room and saying that no one had asked him any questions during the short interview a few minutes earlier with the loser.

1. you see what 'press' can do - somebody wrote something out there and you tend to believe it.
2. could it be translator problem? misunderstandings? culture differences?
3. i don't think lyb is a loser like that.

1. you see what 'press' can do - somebody wrote something out there and you tend to believe it.
2. could it be translator problem? misunderstandings? culture differences?
3. i don't think lyb is a loser like that.you're right. the last thing we need in a miscommunication is someone to fan the fire and make matters worse. LYB does not project to be a whiner to me.

As a mark of respect, Chen did not want to start the interview until Chinese head coach Li Yongbo had been allowed to come and sit down.

Instead, Li made a mild protest by refusing to come for an interview, walking out of the room and saying that no one had asked him any questions during the short interview a few minutes earlier with the loser.


It is not suprising at all as LYB is well-known for such antics. It has been reported on several ocassions that he refused to answer questions from non-Chinese reporters at press conferences.

/.../
So here it is 1) He wasn't in top form 2) He under-estimates his opponents - does not respect them 3) His form deserted him suddendly after set 1. 4) He pannicked when 3) happened, 5) He did not play percentage when he needed it. 6) Chen was more determined to win.
I watched the match. How he lost: 1) He was digging out drop shots and many did not get over; 2) forehand smashes from his left back corner to CH's left forecourt went wide. 3) He lost his anticipation and could not get to some drop shots, smashes or feints or was there but too late. 4) He rushed shots which missed or lofted short for Cheng to kill. 5) The worse the score, the more he pannicked and the worse he played. 6) Chen played his solid game: moving him back forth, side to side, high and low; LD rushed around mostly missing or mishitting. 7) He was shaking his head incredulously at Chen's ability to outplay him, and frowned in surprise at his errors. This is not what you expect a faked loser to do. 8) Lin had few serves as Chen scored 5-10 points in one service in both sets 2 and 3.Noticed how quick those sets were?
There, do we have at least 30 points for C Hong to win legitimately without conspiracy theory or illness excuse? Yhttp://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

There, at last somebody provides a game analysis argumenting for why Chen Hong won. You have several good points there. I am not sure you explain the big loss margin, though.

I really must make it clear that I am not in any way trying to take away the victory from Chen Hong. I have seen him in his previous heydays, and I know what a formidable player he is. I am NOT surprised that it was he who brought down Lin Dan. So again, the question is not "how could Chen Hong beat Lin Dan", but "how could Chen Hong beat Lin Dan by 23 points in the last two games?" If it hadn't been for that 1st game win, nobody would have thought twice about it.

Chen Hong has been, well... erratic, during the last years, while Lin Dan has proved himself very reliable. As Cooler said, the wide point margin raises speculation. And we're allowed to speculate in this forum. :D

In any case, it was a remarkable result, and a remarkable win for Chen Hong.

Mag says I did not explain the 15-5 15-2 score.
Lin lost 15-5 and 15-2 if you just count 2-3 points for each of the kinds of errors I listed. I pointed out that LD got very few serves and whenever Chen got the serve he took several points. I just started to feel LD's repeated errors was like a computer locked the stroke into his head and each time he raised his arm the same stroke and error was played. It was like the 5 smashes Fu hit into Paaske's body in game 1 + 3 winners into the ground. When you are playing badly and are not a rallying type but rather want to hustle the opponent into abject despair (like Lin) then you keep trying your killer strokes but they are not working at all. In Set 3, LD was 1-10 in a few minutes. Suddenly Chen was at set or match point.

LD blitzed WCH 15-1. Why did no one say it is a fix, injury or something wrong? So WCH can lose 15-1 but LD cannot lose15-5 or 15-2? Is it because on the other side is another top Chinese player or specifically it was ChenH who's lately been erratic? Well that is all speculation - it just happened.

Remember 11-0 for Camila from GongZC at the 2000 Olympics? Of all people Camila, who had the best record of any non-Chinese after Susi, against the Chinese, and the O' is the last place she would want to be humiliated like that. But she was. In set 2 of the WS, Xie went up 8-1 before Zhang tried to stop the headlong rush. In the MD, Cai-Fu were 9-1 (?)up before the Danes stemmed the haemorage. Unlikely, but facts. So with LD's loss by a huge margin. Don't need mirrors or tricks. Just ChenH in and LD off form. Let's see if LD will ever reach 4 AE F's like ChenH. Y

WoWw very well said heheh

Remember 11-0 for Camila from GongZC at the 2000 Olympics?

I watched the 2000 Olympics WS final. Camilla was playing very well in the beginning but somehow GongZC returned all her shots back and frustrated Camilla, and ended up Camilla losing points by making mistakes. In the 2nd set, I think Camilla gave up because she was playing her best game but still felt no chance of beating GongZC. I didn't watch the AE MS final. Could it be the case of the third game.

LD is a very strong person mentally, with high confidence, but actually lacking in Skills and techniques. Lin is a quick nimble athlete.

CH is a person with arguably technically the best strokes and footwork of any player around. CH is a fast, powerful athlete. He lacks self confidence, and perhaps some mental strength. (Check out this brilliant thread: http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1592&highlight=chen+hong+confidence )


They are basically completley different. But they had the same results in majors before this 1AE each. Lin has been around for about 3 years now, chen maybe a few more, but not that many.

What I am trying to say is that lin is not unbeatable at all, and when he is pushed he can lose. Chen hong played a perfect game against him, retrieved his attacks, and stung him with counter attacks rather than his more usual all out attack. This made Lin dan lose his confidence, and without his confidence Lin is a very ordinary player (sounds harsh, but is true).

Time is on his side, and if he can improve on his weaknesses like Chen has, then he can be great. But Confidence is temproary, once a few defeats fall it can all go. Chen hong has class, and this can give him confidence.

Personally I hope chen hong gets what he wants (A WC/OG title) as I believe he has worked hard to improve his mind set and defence. If lin dan improves his skills, and realises he cannot be so confident all the time, and it takes hard work, then he will get what he deserves too.

With regards to this AE final, he was beaten fair and square, as Chen hong took away his best weapon-confidence. and without that confidence he didn't know what to do.

Mag says I did not explain the 15-5 15-2 score.
Lin lost 15-5 and 15-2 if you just count 2-3 points for each of the kinds of errors I listed. I pointed out that LD got very few serves and whenever Chen got the serve he took several points. I just started to feel LD's repeated errors was like a computer locked the stroke into his head and each time he raised his arm the same stroke and error was played. It was like the 5 smashes Fu hit into Paaske's body in game 1 + 3 winners into the ground. When you are playing badly and are not a rallying type but rather want to hustle the opponent into abject despair (like Lin) then you keep trying your killer strokes but they are not working at all. In Set 3, LD was 1-10 in a few minutes. Suddenly Chen was at set or match point.

LD blitzed WCH 15-1. Why did no one say it is a fix, injury or something wrong? So WCH can lose 15-1 but LD cannot lose15-5 or 15-2? Is it because on the other side is another top Chinese player or specifically it was ChenH who's lately been erratic? Well that is all speculation - it just happened.

Remember 11-0 for Camila from GongZC at the 2000 Olympics? Of all people Camila, who had the best record of any non-Chinese after Susi, against the Chinese, and the O' is the last place she would want to be humiliated like that. But she was. In set 2 of the WS, Xie went up 8-1 before Zhang tried to stop the headlong rush. In the MD, Cai-Fu were 9-1 (?)up before the Danes stemmed the haemorage. Unlikely, but facts. So with LD's loss by a huge margin. Don't need mirrors or tricks. Just ChenH in and LD off form. Let's see if LD will ever reach 4 AE F's like ChenH. Y

well said - may I ask how you got to watch the games live in China? Never saw them on TV? Thanks.

/.../ LD blitzed WCH 15-1. Why did no one say it is a fix, injury or something wrong? So WCH can lose 15-1 but LD cannot lose15-5 or 15-2? Is it because on the other side is another top Chinese player or specifically it was ChenH who's lately been erratic? Well that is all speculation - it just happened.

Remember 11-0 for Camila from GongZC at the 2000 Olympics? Of all people Camila, who had the best record of any non-Chinese after Susi, against the Chinese, and the O' is the last place she would want to be humiliated like that. But she was. In set 2 of the WS, Xie went up 8-1 before Zhang tried to stop the headlong rush. In the MD, Cai-Fu were 9-1 (?)up before the Danes stemmed the haemorage. Unlikely, but facts. So with LD's loss by a huge margin. Don't need mirrors or tricks. Just ChenH in and LD off form. Let's see if LD will ever reach 4 AE F's like ChenH. Y

Don't even try to bring Camilla into this. She has produced some of the strangest point distributions in the history of badminton, all due to her "special" mentality. You can't compare Lin Dan to Camilla psychologically.

Neither is it fair to compare Lin Dan to WCH, as nobody raises an eyebrow anymore if WCH gets whopped by a qualification player. Sure, he still has it in him, but he seldom brings it out. Lin Dan, however, only lost 4 matches last year.

And the fact that the match is between two Chinese players does have a lot to do with it, yes. It won't matter how much LYB says "we don't do that anymore" -- the suspicion that the players didn't try their best will always be there. This beast was created by LYB, thank you very much, now we see the consequences.

Until this final, Lin Dan has not struck me as a particularly psychologically weak player. He has lost games big before (although never this big) and yet been able to come back and win. Well, I buy your (and James') match analysis, so perhaps it is just time to revise that opinion!

Regarding Lin Dan's future, I am sure he has the capacity to reach four AE finals -- he's already been in two. However, he doesn't have too much time, as his taxing playing style will no doubt shorten his career...


By the way, when was the last time we had an in-depth match analysis thread like this one? Thank you everybody for your contributions! :D

Hmm I dont think Chen Hong has the best technique. I think he is a master in power and footwork but I would rate Gade and Taufik to be the best technical players around. Lin Dan's technic is also quite good and he is a master in offensive and defensive play. Without his technique he wouldnt be world nr 1

Hmm I dont think Chen Hong has the best technique. I think he is a master in power and footwork but I would rate Gade and Taufik to be the best technical players around. Lin Dan's technic is also quite good and he is a master in offensive and defensive play. Without his technique he wouldnt be world nr 1
i don't know much about technique myself, but surely chen hong gets his power from good technique? Gade and taufik for sure have more variety and more of a "rallying" (compared to CH anyway) style, but is that down to technique, or just their best style which suits their physique?

intresting the 3 names mentioned in the same sentence(s) as best technique are all mentally a bit suspect (not all the time of course):D

There is another thread for the best technique discussion here:

http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20750

Yes I think the result was set with the world champs seeding in mind. Clearly the higher the 2nd and 3rd chinese are the more "control" the team will have in deciding the outcome, we all remember Birmingham 2003 and the chinese tactics.

What about the WS? I havent seen the match but XIe didnt make the team for Athens yet beat Zhang in two??

This is why I tell people not to go on finals day, 3 all chinese finals is not good for the spectator, well the educated spectator anyway.....

I did not watch the MS final. I did watch MS Semifinal and WS Final. In my view, I do not agree both matches were fixed.



In WS final, to say that Zhang gave way for XXF is equally unfair to both. XXF was at rather high ranking prior to Athens. She was excluded from the Athens due to quota set and too many good WS player in China. The fact XXF had won 6 titles back to back after Athens imply that she had improved a lot when most of the top WS player compete in Athens and do not forget that Mia Audina (Athens WS Silver Medalist) lost to her in Semifinal in two sets too. Would anyone suggest that Mia Audina also gave way for XXF? I believe at age 30, Zhang would eager to add another major title to her collection since AE is the only one she fall short. Some people may be discounting the fact that Zhang was lack of practice after Athens due to celebration and her wedding. This can be seen in the preliminary round as well where Zhang was forced to play 3 sets by relatively lower rank player.



As for the MS final, I have expected the outcome after watching the semifinal match between Lin Dan and Wong CH. There are several occasions that Lin Dan did not chase for the shuttle cock and some signs that he did not want to aggravate his injury. That is why I expect Chen Hong to win in the final. Besides, would anyone suggest a match fixing in Athens that Lin Dan lost in first round?



In the competitive MS, to say that match fixing is done in order to secure a better seeding in the coming competition simply doesn’t make sense. Match fixing in order to get a better seeding only has an effect on average player like you and me. It is useless for a strong player like those in the top 20 in world ranking. No one has clear advantage against the other in the top 10(20).

just watched the AE MS final...here's my opinion

in the first game,lin dan won easily and got over confident..and all the world's all right.... :)

in the second game..chen hong tried several tricks and got lucky..pissing off the confident lin dan to play "what you can do i can do too" but was not as lucky...by the time lin dan realize whats happening chen hong's score is already too far away......too late

you can see chen hong increase his concentration and tricks and pissing off the young lin dan in the second game

on the 3rd game,the again over confident lin dan didnt play his usual good game but wants to play "let's trick each other" kind of game....and realizing that he....CAN'T pull it off......his over confidence and think too low opinion of chen hong did him in.....he played like a spoiled kid not a pro that he should have been...cool and controlled like what chen hong did....the whole game...CH didnt get pissed off at his mistakes...he just keep on his game plan....all the way.....


once again..over confident lin dan didnt take the game seriously till its too late...AGAIN.....

it was a match between a man and a boy....

To 2love2live
Easy. I found out early that Hongkong was going to go live on Saturday SF and Sunday F, so I just took a flight to Hongkong Friday night. Much cheaper + ringside view, than flying to Birmingham, and I could have a drink (I had several) and smoke a cigar and risk a heart attack. I was rushing to the computer to see what people were saying and rushing back to see whether someone had been slaughtered - basically I like the vicarious nature of live badminton or table tennis - especially badminston because the whole body is in action whereas in TT its mainly the arms and footwork. Kwun was absent for most of the Sunday night.
Mind you the play went to 2 am each night. I am not answering Q's on my condition on Monday at work.

To Mag
You said it when you first raised this Q. This is a red herring. When did you last see one? But we all had a 'go' at defending our positions.

To whoever provided the juicy bit about LYB's theatrics when ChenH waited for him to come and sit down. (Can't go back to check who it was otherwise I'll have to rewrite this masterpiece!!!)

That was a gem.LYB is a prima donna and thinks journalists are interested in him at the after-game press conferences. A mixed-up kid - especially when his blue-eyed boy LD flopped.

Y

I have now seen the match so I will offer my opinion.

I think it was several factors.
Chen Hong looks to be playing better than he used to.
He no longer plays too many of his old "favourite shot" the reverse slice smash
He is better at the net

The body language of Lin Dan suggested to me that he was tired. Maybe he picked up a virus. That's what it looked like to me on the TV close-ups.
At the start of the 3rd, Lin Dan was briefly re-energised, but only for a few rallies.

Chen killed Lin at the net.

In last year's final Gade killed Lin at the net, but eventually it was Gade who ran out of steam and couldn't keep up with Lin.

This year Lin ran out of steam.

It didn't look fixed to me.

yes....CH looked lean and mean while LD was puffy faced...bloated for a thin guy

Are you saying CH doesnt deserve it?? You should consider that he went in the final for the 4th time and how he played trough out the whole tournament.

He also had one of the hardest draft Vs Bao Vs Shon Vs Lin.

Give him some respect for god sake! I just watched the 2nd and 3rd set and Chen Hong was just a better player than Lin. (Love his jump smash)

By the way WCH also beat Lin in the 2nd set however lost the third one (15-1). Why can it happen to Lin Dan?

CH deserve all the credit and I'm so happy that he won against someone like Lin Dan. I never said he didn't deserve it cos he did, but i thiought it was a bit strange that Lin Dan did so well against him in the first set but then lost it in the other two. He was making alot of mistakes he didn't make before but Chen Hong did play well so WELL DONE CHEN HONG!!:)

i think Lin Dan is too tired... playing German & All England continuously....
the bandage / plaster (whatever that is call) is for muscle strain.... so it's normal if you all can't see any open wounds....
i don't think his bandage / plaster is fake.... i think his muscle really aches... that's why his speed becomes slower

lean and mean vs. bloato :)



http://img78.exs.cx/img78/2267/90mi.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Over the last week i've talked to some players/coaches/umpires that have participated at the international level. None have in the last number of years (except the umpires), but none of them are suprised by the prospect of a fix. One quote was "the higher you go up, the more corupt things get"

I havn't watched the set, and all I know of the affair is from this thread, but sports at the elite level is a whole different game. Esspecially when you take a global power working to maintain the top spot.

but who knows so congrats chen hong!

I think its ridicolous to be speaking about Lin Dan giving away an All England title. Chen Hong was the better man this day and for Lin Dan fans.. try to accept that. Last year it was discussed that he gave away the first set against Peter Gade to tire him out and I think its a bit funny and at the same time ridicolous because why should he dare to do so in his first AE final and against a player who when it goes his way and has the right mental strengh plays formidable. Both finals where between good players. Last year Lin won and this year he lost. Isnt about time saying end of discussion??? ;)

I think its ridicolous to be speaking about Lin Dan giving away an All England title. Chen Hong was the better man this day and for Lin Dan fans.. try to accept that. Last year it was discussed that he gave away the first set against Peter Gade to tire him out and I think its a bit funny and at the same time ridicolous because why should he dare to do so in his first AE final and against a player who when it goes his way and has the right mental strengh plays formidable. Both finals where between good players. Last year Lin won and this year he lost. Isnt about time saying end of discussion??? ;)Hear!! Hear!! :D:D

have a rather far-fetched theory but neverthless a possibility.we all know that lin and chen are great friends.now ,in the WC only three players max, can represent china.lin dan of course will be one of them,so it would not matter to him if he were to lose or win in the finals.but the remaining 2 will go either to bao,xia or chen[along with the chinese juniors catching up too].maybe just to ensure that chen may be in the team for the WC lin actually lost the match on purpose[perhaps he did not even tell chen that he would lose intentionally].but then i would say reaching the finals would be a good enough achievement for chen,but who knows??

or simply lin was rather too over confident or did not gather enough motivation to win or was just too tired[a more cleaner theory]

have a rather far-fetched theory but neverthless a possibility.we all know that lin and chen are great friends.now ,in the WC only three players max, can represent china.lin dan of course will be one of them,so it would not matter to him if he were to lose or win in the finals.but the remaining 2 will go either to bao,xia or chen[along with the chinese juniors catching up too].maybe just to ensure that chen may be in the team for the WC lin actually lost the match on purpose[perhaps he did not even tell chen that he would lose intentionally].but then i would say reaching the finals would be a good enough achievement for chen,but who knows??

or simply lin was rather too over confident or did not gather enough motivation to win or was just too tired[a more cleaner theory]

Wrong, maximum 4 players if all within top 8.

I think its ridicolous to be speaking about Lin Dan giving away an All England title. Chen Hong was the better man this day and for Lin Dan fans.. try to accept that. Last year it was discussed that he gave away the first set against Peter Gade to tire him out and I think its a bit funny and at the same time ridicolous because why should he dare to do so in his first AE final and against a player who when it goes his way and has the right mental strengh plays formidable. Both finals where between good players. Last year Lin won and this year he lost. Isnt about time saying end of discussion??? ;) I agree that the talk about last years and lin dan giving up a game on purpose was silly. But there is one major difference, this year it was an all china final. To think that the chinese coaches sit back all the time and say, "just go out and do you best guys" is silly. Not saying that's what happened here, but it's happened before. Lin dan doesn't play just for himself, he plays for China, and so does Chen Hong. If two chinese players reach a final, China has already won. So if Chen Hong can get a better draw for the WC, and as a result an easier path to the final, I don't think it's out of the question to see a fixed match. What would the goals be for the Chinese team right now be? A men's singles champion. How do you do that? Get as many players as far into the draw as you can.
Again, I'm not saying this is what happened, a million and one things could have happened. One of course being that Chen Hong simply played better. Or lin Dan had a stomach ache. Or who knows. But to completly rule out a fix is nieve. *whuwho, post 100 :cool:*

After the AE, Lin Dan lost about 600 points but he is still number 1 in the world ranking. Chen Hong gained about 2500 points and jumped from rank 5 to rank 2. hmmmm.... :rolleyes:

If the game was fixed, we should also blame ourselves to let chinese players dominate the badminton nowadays.

This time Chen Hong gets hot, next time could be Bao Chunlai. Who knows could be Chen Yu, Xia etc in the WC. So tell me which country has the quality to send 4 players other than china in Men's single at WC? It is like against 4 Peter Gade's :D After the AE, Lin Dan lost about 600 points but he is still number 1 in the world ranking. Chen Hong gained about 2500 points and jumped from rank 5 to rank 2. hmmmm.... :rolleyes:

If the game was fixed, we should also blame ourselves to let chinese players dominate the badminton nowadays.

To 2love2live
Easy. I found out early that Hongkong was going to go live on Saturday SF and Sunday F, so I just took a flight to Hongkong Friday night. Much cheaper + ringside view, than flying to Birmingham, and I could have a drink (I had several) and smoke a cigar and risk a heart attack.
Y
haha - awesone!

To 2love2live

That was a gem.LYB is a prima donna and thinks journalists are interested in him at the after-game press conferences. A mixed-up kid - especially when his blue-eyed boy LD flopped.

Y
I still tend to believe he was like that because he's not sophisticated enough to hide his stupidity - which i tend to believe is a good thing, like how do you like William Hung, or Forest Gump? I mean press should be the easiest to fool so why bother?

or simply lin was rather too over confident or did not gather enough motivation to win or was just too tired[a more cleaner theory]

i heard some time ago another theory though, i was told those pro players in any sports since they are trained so intensely for almost a life time, so it's like built into their blood they are so competitive, and are eager to win every time whatever the competition is.

I was watching Heineken open shanghai several years ago - not a big fan for tennis just went with a friend. To make it more fun, the champion after winning the last game (forgot who he was) was challenged by the host to do a remote-controlled model car racing around the tennis court with one of the audience who happens to be a young lady: I was telling my friend I think the champion will let the lady win to cheer the audience up, and I told him if I were the champion I would do that - but my friend who was an american bet me dinner that the champion will try all his best to win. I lost the dinner.

because they have this in their competitive blood they win.:D :D

Again, I'm not saying this is what happened, a million and one things could have happened. One of course being that Chen Hong simply played better. Or lin Dan had a stomach ache. Or who knows. But to completly rule out a fix is nieve. *whuwho, post 100 :cool:*with all respect, it is really unfair to chen hong by say that anything is possible so you cannot rule out that the game is fixed. by the same logic, i may also argue that peter gade lost to lin dan in last year's ae is because the chinese bribed him with a couple hundred rmb, which, hey, is one of a million and one things that could have happened.

with all respect, it is really unfair to chen hong by say that anything is possible so you cannot rule out that the game is fixed. by the same logic, i may also argue that peter gade lost to lin dan in last year's ae is because the chinese bribed him with a couple hundred rmb, which, hey, is one of a million and one things that could have happened.
There is a big difference. Fixing within a team is a heck of alot easier and less risky than just going up to a player from a different country with a case full of money.

Like I said before, I havn't even seen the set. But it seems that SOME people who were there that think "something" happened to lin dan after the 1 game. If china has fixed games between it's players in the past, why is it so hard to think it COULD have happened at the AE?
China, as a team, benifited more from chen hong winning than lin dan in that the draw will be more favorable at the bigger event, the WC.

I'm agree with markin. Fixing a game within a team is a lot lot easier. Hey, i think we call it, team spirit, right... :cool:

Also, WC is more prestige with its rated 7 stars tournaments, which mean more points to gain for players.

i think this is getting a bit draggy. there's no point in arguing on it for so long. if a fix was indeed existent in that match, then shame on them. there's no way we're gonna find out the truth unless someone decides to confess. why don't we save the rest of our condemnations for when that moment arrives?

how easy to fix a game is one thing, whether it is the truth is another thing. so far we have seen several analyses of why lin dan lost, from people actually watched the game. on the other hand, those arguments for the conspiracy theory are pure speculations. it is unfair to imply somebody may be guilty without any evidence.

maybe this is kind of off topic. in 1999, when mccain and bush competed for the gop president candidate, there was a poll conducted by some organization supporting bush. one question in the poll is (or something like that) "if mccain is gay, will you still vote for him". sure mccain is not gay. but after reading the question, nevertheless, many people got that impression.

It seems like a hot topic but I haven't seen the video thus I can't judge. I wonder if anyone have recorded the games and is willing to distribute. I am looking forward to see the video.

It seems like a hot topic but I haven't seen the video thus I can't judge. I wonder if anyone have recorded the games and is willing to distribute. I am looking forward to see the video.


Recently after Jimmy Connors was appointed Briish coach or sth he quoted this when asked what mekes winners-

" Everyone has nice strokes and are tremendous athletes,
but in order to win you must want to win badly"

that applies to whoever your opponent is.

Can someone who frequents badders.com

post the link on the interview with Susi Susanti in Jakarta post especially to her reference to european players esp Camilla ?

Like I said before, I havn't even seen the set. But it seems that SOME people who were there that think "something" happened to lin dan after the 1 game.


Actually it seems to me that most people who have seen the match agree it wasn't, and people who havent have just seen the scoreline and assumed.

If you watch auto racing (even bicycle racing), then you'll know teams with more than 1 driver/rider often time do this on purpose. And it's widely accepted by both the audience and competitors as a form of "team strategy". As long as they put on a good show, I don't really care.

Can someone who frequents badders.com

post the link on the interview with Susi Susanti in Jakarta post especially to her reference to european players esp Camilla ? no need to do that, someone already did, go to general forum

Can someone who frequents badders.com

post the link on the interview with Susi Susanti in Jakarta post especially to her reference to european players esp Camilla ?
Are you talking about this article : http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22188 ??

Are you talking about this article : http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22188 ??

I must have missed the thread.

Notice that Susi mentioned sponsorship.

China invests a lot of money to get where she is and Japan spends a lot of money.

Except for England which has done sth have other Europeans contibuted much in terms of finance or are they always scheming to limit China's success?

Camilla and Gade are just asking other Europeans to invest more to bear fruit, not just whining .

Can anyone imagine badminton without China or Japan ?

Remember how the game lost a lot of followers in the years 1993-1996, the lowest point in history..

Lin and Chen's matches

Lin Dan
1 Kaveh Mehrabi 15-1 15-4 25min
2 Kasper Oedum 15-7 6-15 15-7 67 min
3 Aamir Ghaffar 15-4 15-11 27 min
4 Lee Hyun-Il 15-10 13-15 15-8 93 min
5 Wong Choon Hann 15-8 12-15 15-1 85 min
6 Chen Hong 15-8 5-15 2-15 74min

Chen Hong
1 Martyn Lewis 15-8 15-9 30 min
2 Shinya Ohtsuka 15-11 15-10 40 min
3 Shon Seung-Mo 15-8 15-3 42 min
4 Bao Chun Lai 13-15 15-12 15-4 76 min
5 Lee Chong Wei 15-13 15-10 54 min
6 Lin Dan 8-15 15-5 15-2 74 min

Who was having a good tournament, and who wasn't at their peak?

Ghaffar had 2 3-setters for 60 and 80 minutes before his match with Lin. Beating 10th seed Dicky Palyama probably took it all out of Ghaffar.
other than this match and round 1 vs someone from the qualifying rounds, Lin dropped a game in every match.

Lin was 8-0 up in game 2 vs Wong CH before losing it.
Did he do that on purpose also?

To those who think Lin gave the final away, did Bao give his match to Chen Hong also?

You'd think Lin Dan would want to follow on the footsteps

of Paul Gascoigne instead of say Beckham.

" Arrogant" (not naive) Li Yong Bo wouldn't giva away too much to rivals hiding from this tour when what he really

wants is to win the Sudirman and maybe World Champs.

I'm sure he wouldn't tell his boys to maul each other and let your rivals see what you've got and neither would the players themselves , injure each other and then miss the sudirman and Worlds?

another thing..CH has to beat tougher opponents on the way up to the finals in comparison to LD...so CH really did play well in this tournament..we might as well accuse all others who lose to him on the way up did it intentionally to make him win ,LD, alone cannot "make/allow" CH to become the champion in this tournament... :)

Maybe both Chen Hong and Lin dan trains together, thus allowing both of them to expose their strengths and weaknesses during training. Maybe Chen Hong exploited and analysed Lin Dan's weaknesses and it gave him the upper hand. Its very important to know about your opponents weaknesses.. even if they are your compatriots.. I still believe that Chen Hong deserves the title and the match is not "fixed". ;)

The most recent results in IBF events have indirectly counteracted the views of adherents who said the match between Chen Hong and Lin Dan at the AE 2005 was fixed. Chen Hong won on merit and not that Lin threw away the match just because Chen was his teammate and close friend.

Lin Dan was beaten by Taufik Hidayat at the Singapore Open and by Lee Chong Wei the following week at the Malaysian Open. Lin Dan is beatable!

Bbn was right in saying the winner is the one who wanted the title most!

Taufik exacted revenge on Lin for losing in the Sudirman Cup and 'kampong boy' Lee has once again proven that he was no pushover, even against the World No.1, on home ground. He rebounded on the verge of losing and stole the crown from Lin. He was more hungry than Lin.

Let's see whether Lin proves to be the hungriest at the forthcoming WC!

Sorry I haven't read the entire thread, but has anybody considered that Chen Hong is like senior to Lin Dan ? or in Cantonese they call it "shi hing" for seniors. I believe that Lin Dan really didn't want to win against Chen just for that reason. Lin Dan probably has alot of respect for Chen and you can tell that Lin Dan wasn't making any fusses about losing points. Just from watching the match and judging from his reactions, Lin Dan was refraining from psyching himself up. (the Clench fist thing followed with the "OSU !". Sort of what the koreans do all the time). And when he did do it, he put his racket up in apology. Furthermore, I felt that Lin Dan was purposely flinging himself around the court and only making an effort on a few points. This was an effort to make the defeat more convincing and plausible.

Though nothing is completely right, I think that we can safely say that Lin Dan didn't give it his all in the all england final. It's unfortunate, but it was the way things turned out. And To be honest, I don't think Lin Dan minds losing the all england to Chen Hong.

Sorry if someone addressed this point already, but from what I read in most of the thread, most of the opinions were aimed at injury, and point manipulation.

yes, i agree with beckman..for people to not have even seen the match and call it fixed that's ridiculous. besides, if you heard it from the media, we all know who they like to twist things so it sounds better.

i saw the game and it seemed a good, hard out fight between the two of them. Chen did play very well, especially at the net where he was just awesome. we also need to look back to the previous matches, in which Lin Dan took a long time and must have tired him out. and we all come back to his mental strength. for those who saw the last match, i bet he didn't like getting aced by Chen :D ah well.

but really, is it all that surprising and important if Lin Dan loses? i mean, he's just another human, he ain't invincible, not by a long way. i think we should just appreciate the hard work he's done to get to his current status and just try to enjoy watching him play the game. why bother with wondering if it's fixed or not? does it really matter? for me, i'd rather turn a blind eye to whatever happens off court and just focus and seeing a wonder play his game