Why women don't jump smash?

[^Tayo^]

I've seen it done... by Rasmussen and Marissa. So it is physically possible as stroke for women. Despite of the power difference (strength and speed) between men and women, why is this shot not performed in women doubles or women single as much as the men's? Shouldn't they drill this move to make a drastic advantage in their games?

[Jumpalot]

I think so. Women should jump smash to get an advantage. In some other sports such as basketball and volleyball which requires jumping and women tends to do just fine.

[Greasemonkey]

I think the women do jump smash but just not as high as the men. If you look closely, some women do tend to elevate a little bit when they smash but not as high and noticable as the men.
I think the reason for that is because if they were to do it, they will have a harder time getting back in position. The women physical body is not made the same as the men, so they do have a little more to carry around the us men do.

But don't let me make this a fact, it is just my guess. A better answer would be one that came from a women.

[jamesd20]

Success in a jump smash depends on:

-Height of Jump (therefore angle of smash)

-Power of smash

-Defence of opponent


The height of jump is important since if it takes a woman a lot of energy to jump 1foot then the benefit they gain in angle will not outweigh the speed with which they tire when jump smashing

The power is important since when you jump smash you tend to do it to end the rally. In a womens game their smashes are not powerful enough to finish the rally until at least mid court, at which point the likelyhood of they jmp smash is low, since they can finish anyway.

The defence of your opponent is critical and relates to whether you are likely to win the rally form the jump smash or not. If you jump smash, and your smash is not strong enough to finish then you have the added time to land, coordinate, then move to new position then set up for jump smash again. A tough assignment even for top players.



Women fall short in most of these categories in relation to whether it is beneficial to jump smash.

Some men in double dont jump smash all the time for the fact they cannot win the rally, but want to attack, and be mobile to kill the return. (candra wijaya for example rarely uses the jump smash, and he is a worldchamp, olympic champ, and AE champ) Other men use it a lot, maybe because they can, but maybe because they dont know how to use the smash effectively and with variety.

[cooler]

jamesd20, I would had give the exact reasons as well. ;)

In WS and especially in WD, rallies tend to last longer than men's because women's defensive strength is equal or greater than their offensive ability (ie smashing). Jumping smashing would be inefficient use of energy. Maybe why some fans(not me though) may view watching WD as not as exciting as men event or that WD match take too long to finish.

[MarkinJapan]

i agree with cooler.
Take a look at your own club. At my club the top women is as good a defender as many of the guys, but she doesn't hit as hard. no point in wasting energy without getting an advantage. Good rule for any singles match.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Take a look at basketball. Women often jump when shooting baskets but you never seem them slam-dunking basketballs. Even tall women don't have the same jumping ability of most men of similar height. Women generally do not have a high percentage of fast-twitch (particularly type II-b) fibres in their leg muscles.

You see the same thing in volleyball. The height of the net in women's v'ball is quite a bit lower than it is for men's v'ball for the same reason.

If women have a lower percentage of type II-b fibers, then they must have a higher percentage of either type I or type II-a fibers which would both tend to give them more leg endurance for those longer rallies

[wilfredlgf]

An exception to the norm would be one of the Korean ladies doubles player. She seemed to be the only one who would and even so, she doesn't jump as high as say, Chen Hong would. I saw it fleetingly on the telly when I went out to eat, don't know her name but from the flag, it's clear she is Korean.

[Jumpalot]

Whether women can jump as high or hit as hard as men is not the point. The point is even if an average woman jump just 1 foot (12 inches), she will have increased her playing height by 1 foot !!! So if an woman who is normally 5-6 is indeed playing at 6-6 when she is jump smashing. I will agree the angle may not change that much from 5'6 to 6'6. But it will certainly be an advantage worth looking into unless it's proven that an woman that is jump smashing is consistantly hitting less hard or achieves less angle than a woman that is performing a standing smash.

[jamesd20]

Also genetically Women have a higher percentage of Body fat to men, and body fat is a waste of tissue when trying to jump higher, and is bound to reduce the height of the jump.

[Wizbit]

If any women can jumpsmash, the Chinese oughta be able to do it but do you see them do it?

I have seen some European players do it. I think it will be trained more in the future, this will take ladies doubles :rolleyes: to the next level.

At the moment, it is too physically demanding for the women players, and minimal advantage gained by doing so.

[^Tayo^]

I don't know about you guys but If I see a woman doing a jump smash at my club, i'd be drooling like crazy. :p

[^Tayo^]

Also genetically Women have a higher percentage of Body fat to men, and body fat is a waste of tissue when trying to jump higher, and is bound to reduce the height of the jump.
The point is, they still can jump and benefit the angle and power even though they have more fat tissue. Also let's not forget that heavy weight also gives more power to your smashes (energy transfer).

[^Tayo^]

I noticed that all women when they smash (especially the Japanese) from the baseline, instead of jumping they would do the "pinky leg" before smashing i.e. they would lift their opposite foot of the arm racket to gain more weight transfer for their smash.

However, one thing I don't understand is that 90% of women at international level are able to return smashes from men so in WD it is pointless for them to perform a baseline smash since they don't jump to have the power. Therefore most of their smashes will be returned easily and it would be a waste of energy.

[SystemicAnomaly]

The point is, they still can jump and benefit the angle and power even though they have more fat tissue. Also let's not forget that heavy weight also gives more power to your smashes (energy transfer).
The smash power would come primarily from muscle mass, particulary fast twitch (type II-b), not so much from added weight due to higher body fat percentages.

Also, many (but not all) ppl get less power, not more power with their jump smash. The primary advantage of the jump smash is the angle. Since most women would not get much height on their jump smash, the added benefit would be less. It might not be worth the added effort for some women since it takes more energy to perform the jump. Those women, not all, might be better off saving their energy for the longer rallies seen in women's games.

[bluejeff]

I have some slightly different views:
1. Because they were wearing skirts :p
2. Because they do not have that much of attacking desire as men do

[SWC_Ant]

when i was watching the world juniors championships in richmond last year, i noticed that the indonesian women doubles smashed/jump smashed a lot.. dunno if this helps

[jcl49]

when i was watching the world juniors championships in richmond last year, i noticed that the indonesian women doubles smashed/jump smashed a lot.. dunno if this helps
Wow...looks like we are on the brink of whitnessing another milestone in the development of badminton. It's good that the sport develops - makes womens badminton a whole lot more exciting!

[wilfredlgf]

I have some slightly different views:
1. Because they were wearing skirts :p
do It's one of the best ideas we've had in badminton for years! :)


I have some slightly different views:
2. Because they do not have that much of attacking desire as men do
This is perhaps the more relevant answer to the question. Women prefer to outwit rather than to overpower the opponent, thus powerful techniques such as the jump smash is not practiced, in comparison to... say, the perfect drop. The desire to win is there, but with a different mentality.

[Mag]

I'm sorry, but to me the problem lies with the coaches, not with the players. Or are you seriously suggesting that females are incapable of aggression? :eek:

The reason why not more female badminton players jump smash is because most of them have male coaches -- and many of those coaches still seem to think that jump smashing is not a natural part of women's badminton. "What women prefer" has nothing to do with it -- rather it's all about what they are taught that the game is supposed to be like.

:mad:

[jcl49]

when i was watching the world juniors championships in richmond last year, i noticed that the indonesian women doubles smashed/jump smashed a lot
Just out of interest, are the indonerian women's double team coached by a female?

The reason why not more female badminton players jump smash is because most of them have male coaches
It (unfortunately) makes a lot of sense what Mag wrote.

[Wizbit]

Should be taken care of by Hendrawan ;)
Just out of interest, are the indonerian women's double team coached by a female?

It (unfortunately) makes a lot of sense what Mag wrote.

[Dill]

I would have thought it was more of a traditional thing where women were expected or generally coinsidered to be shorter in stature than the men so it would not make much noticible difference to the final angle of their smash.

The other flipside of the coin is that males were expected to be a bit taller so a jump would give a larger or more tangible difference.

[SWC_Ant]

Just out of interest, are the indonerian women's double team coached by a female?unfortunately, i wasn't as observant at the time (didn't know about BF until a while after eithre :p ) but i'm pretty sure they were jump smashing.. or just smashing a lot from the back.. either way.. they were much more aggresive than the taiwanese WD (the team i was cheering for :( ) and it looks like they won there..

[three]

I noticed that all women when they smash (especially the Japanese) from the baseline, instead of jumping they would do the "pinky leg" before smashing i.e. they would lift their opposite foot of the arm racket to gain more weight transfer for their smash.

However, one thing I don't understand is that 90% of women at international level are able to return smashes from men so in WD it is pointless for them to perform a baseline smash since they don't jump to have the power. Therefore most of their smashes will be returned easily and it would be a waste of energy.

yes, especially eriko hirose. i was observing during her sudirman cup matches. if you ask me, i think saralee thungthongkam jump smashes. while, jo novita and greysia polli have really good jump smashes, i observe during their match against lee hyo jung and lee kyung won at the aviva open.

[Eurasian =--(O)]

Women can't really jump. They dont have enough fast twitch muscle fibers. The only woman in the WNBA (womens equivalent of the NBA) to dunk was 7 feet tall. Compare that to me at 6" who can dunk on regulation nets, compare that to the NBA where spud web at 5"6 could do 360 dunks.

[ms142]

Women can't really jump. They dont have enough fast twitch muscle fibers. The only woman in the WNBA (womens equivalent of the NBA) to dunk was 7 feet tall. Compare that to me at 6" who can dunk on regulation nets, compare that to the NBA where spud web at 5"6 could do 360 dunks.

Have you ever watched women's volleyball games? I remember that in the top tier teams (the Chinese women's volleyball team is - or was? - also very famous by the way, though not as dominating as the badminton team), they do a lot of powerful "jump smashes" at the net. I think badminton fans would be happy enough to see badminton ladies doing something equivalent.

[Quasimodo]

Camilla Sorensen jump smashed quite a bit in the Sudirman Cup SF. Once she gets her consistency problem taken care of, I think she'll be in the top 3.

[Jumpalot]

Have you ever watched women's volleyball games? I remember that in the top tier teams (the Chinese women's volleyball team is - or was? - also very famous by the way, though not as dominating as the badminton team), they do a lot of powerful "jump smashes" at the net. I think badminton fans would be happy enough to see badminton ladies doing something equivalent.

I totally agree. In beach volleyball the girls have to jump to spike the ball and also jump for the block. In fact, this type of discussion would not exist in volleyball at all. Why doesnt women jump smash in badminton then? I think girls arent really trained to do it, although there are many advantages to a good jump smash including it makes a quick drop or quick slice much more effective. Any type of jump smash means one hits the bird sooner and that means less time for opponent to get ready to return your shot. So instead of waiting for the bird to come down, jump up to hit it. That should be a no brainer.

[kwun]

I totally agree. In beach volleyball the girls have to jump to spike the ball and also jump for the block. In fact, this type of discussion would not exist in volleyball at all. Why doesnt women jump smash in badminton then? I think girls arent really trained to do it, although there are many advantages to a good jump smash including it makes a quick drop or quick slice much more effective. Any type of jump smash means one hits the bird sooner and that means less time for opponent to get ready to return your shot. So instead of waiting for the bird to come down, jump up to hit it. That should be a no brainer.

i am guessing that it has more to do with the recovery time than the jump itself. in volleyball, they jump in place, up and down and they stay in the same place. in badminton, if you jumpsmash, your opponent will for sure be placing the shuttle farthest from you. the player need to have the strength to recover from the jump and move to retrieve the next shot.

[Devilicious]

i am guessing that it has more to do with the recovery time than the jump itself. in volleyball, they jump in place, up and down and they stay in the same place. in badminton, if you jumpsmash, your opponent will for sure be placing the shuttle farthest from you. the player need to have the strength to recover from the jump and move to retrieve the next shot.

Agree. I'd like to add that jumpsmashes are very tiring for women as they leave the rest of the court open after executing the shot. Very good speed and stamina would be needed to get to the smash return. And unfortunately, stamina is something women have much less compared to men.

Also, in volleyball, they actually have a player in charge of passing the ball to the attacking teammate. As long as this person is doing a good job, the attackers have all their time to prepare and hit down the "floater". In badminton, athletes have neither someone to set up the attack nor the time to prepare for it.

Well, that's my opinion.

[Eurasian =--(O)]

Have you ever watched women's volleyball games? I remember that in the top tier teams (the Chinese women's volleyball team is - or was? - also very famous by the way, though not as dominating as the badminton team), they do a lot of powerful "jump smashes" at the net. I think badminton fans would be happy enough to see badminton ladies doing something equivalent.

Womens nets are lower... at least in Canada

[LolAlan]

We oughta get more women players in on this, I mean who are we seriously, a bunch of guys, to speculate why female players don't jump? lol:p

On another note, I watched camilla sorensen in surdiman cup SF too, and saw a lot of her jump smashes. What I can confidently say is this, that her jump smashes look extremely awkward :rolleyes: , they seems to take a lot of effort to execute, she has slow recovery time, and what's more, her smashes definately aren't more powerful than the regular smashes of lets say... Zhang Ning.

Have you noticed that female players don't dive to retrieve smashes either? Well, in that very same game, the indonesian player tried a few dives and man did they looked bad :eek: ! After the third one i had concerns for her well-being, seeing that she rolls and wobbles around on the ground like a beached whale.

I mean not to insult the two players, but IMHO what i saw definately supports the argument that it is not in women's ability to efficiently jump smash.

[other]

On another note, I watched camilla sorensen in surdiman cup SF too, and saw a lot of her jump smashes. What I can confidently say is this, that her jump smashes look extremely awkward :rolleyes: , they seems to take a lot of effort to execute, she has slow recovery time, and what's more, her smashes definately aren't more powerful than the regular smashes of lets say... Zhang Ning.


Just my feeling that everytime CS jumpsmashed from the baseline, her opponent (was it F Haris in the sudirman cup?) got it back with relative ease. It was only when CS was (jump)smashing from closer in that the smashes actually did some damage....well to me anyway:D obviously they were buildup shots from the back, but it really didn't look to produce any results..

it looked awkward, but then again we see very few women jump smash, so i can't really judge the technique used.

[silentlight]

Agree. I'd like to add that jumpsmashes are very tiring for women as they leave the rest of the court open after executing the shot. Very good speed and stamina would be needed to get to the smash return. And unfortunately, stamina is something women have much less compared to men.

Also, in volleyball, they actually have a player in charge of passing the ball to the attacking teammate. As long as this person is doing a good job, the attackers have all their time to prepare and hit down the "floater". In badminton, athletes have neither someone to set up the attack nor the time to prepare for it.

Well, that's my opinion.

Wrong, the opponents set up the attack :P.

[kwun]

On another note, I watched camilla sorensen in surdiman cup SF too, and saw a lot of her jump smashes. What I can confidently say is this, that her jump smashes look extremely awkward :rolleyes: , they seems to take a lot of effort to execute, she has slow recovery time, and what's more, her smashes definately aren't more powerful than the regular smashes of lets say... Zhang Ning

with all due respects, but the reason why CS's jumpsmash looks awkward is more to do with lacking in her techniques, which is not as refined as say Zhang Ning and many others.

[LolAlan]

with all due respects, but the reason why CS's jumpsmash looks awkward is more to do with lacking in her techniques, which is not as refined as say Zhang Ning and many others.

Maybe you're right. But i don't think you can compare jump smashes to regular smashes. My haunch is, if Zhang Ning did a jumpsmash, it would probably look awkward too :rolleyes:

[Jumpalot]

i am guessing that it has more to do with the recovery time than the jump itself. in volleyball, they jump in place, up and down and they stay in the same place. in badminton, if you jumpsmash, your opponent will for sure be placing the shuttle farthest from you. the player need to have the strength to recover from the jump and move to retrieve the next shot.

Its definite that there is longer recovery time but it maybe less than a sec depending how high one jumps. However, if you consider the landing aspects of a recovery phase of a jump smash, it is certainly much easier to achieve more explosiveness to come out of it if a player is well trained in plyometrics. http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/plyometricexercises.html


To further the topic, women arent really taught to jump smash perhaps because they can't jump but I have a feeling their muscles werent trained to jump. Those that could jump smash probably decided to "copy" what the guys are doing and some are good and some arent. Anyways, what advantages and disadvantages that applies to a men's jump smash applies to women's as well. The question is this, are coaches selecting women that can jump? Perhaps it's not the same selection process as in volleyball or basketball? If not, could that explain why women dont jump in badminton? Its a bit like the natural selection process in evolution where the selection in badminton is done by coaches and now what you see is what you get.

[SWC_Ant]

Wrong, the opponents set up the attack :P.
i dont watch volleyball, but in volleyball, the opponents attack, and one of the players on the receiving end would "lift" the ball up, another would set up the ball for a spike, and a third player would spike it across the net, so normally, no, the opponents don't set up the attack :D


Its definite that there is longer recovery time but it maybe less than a sec depending how high one jumps. However, if you consider the landing aspects of a recovery phase of a jump smash, it is certainly much easier to achieve more explosiveness to come out of it if a player is well trained in plyometrics.
1 second is still a lot in a fast-paced game of badminton :D
i dont jumpsmash a lot, mostly because i lose the power i can get from a standing smash, and also because it messes up my timing and my recovery is really slow. to jump smash efficiently you have to be able to put enough power in the smash to make the slow recovery worth it, and to have enough strength to recover and return the smash return :o (which i lack, so i only jumpsmash when its an easy shot in doubles :D)

[Jumpalot]

1 second is still a lot in a fast-paced game of badminton :D
i dont jumpsmash a lot, mostly because i lose the power i can get from a standing smash, and also because it messes up my timing and my recovery is really slow. to jump smash efficiently you have to be able to put enough power in the smash to make the slow recovery worth it, and to have enough strength to recover and return the smash return :o (which i lack, so i only jumpsmash when its an easy shot in doubles :D)

In this fast paced game, if you jump, you reduce the time your opponent has to get ready for your smash. In that sense, you force a weaker return when compared to an oppenent thats receiving a standing smash. Once again, as I mentioned before, a strong jump smash will make your quick drops and slices much more effective as your opponent tends to "stick" to the ground to receive a jump smash.

1 sec is just an estimated time plus I should have said much less than 1 sec. The higher you can jump the longer it is but then again the higher you can jump the more athletic you are so there is no problem recovering. To see how quickly you would land after a jump, take an object and raise it to the height you can achieve and drop it and you will see how quickly it reaches the ground. So for example, if you can jump 12 inches off the ground, take a pen and drop it from that height and you will see its almost instant that it reaches the ground and as quickly as you can clap twice.

You have missed the point to a jump smash. Jump smash is done by the best attackers in singles and doubles. It has a steeper angle + increased explosiveness after you land (see my point about plyometrics.) It's true the recovery time is longer but your body can come out of it much faster and stronger. Take everything into consideration, I rather recover from a jump smash then a static standing smash because my legs tend to be NOT ready after I do a standing smash.

[other]

i dont watch volleyball, but in volleyball, the opponents attack, and one of the players on the receiving end would "lift" the ball up, another would set up the ball for a spike, and a third player would spike it across the net, so normally, no, the opponents don't set up the attack :D


he probably meant that when the opponents serve, they effectively "start" your attack since the ball is in your court to set up the attack as you've described above.


In this fast paced game, if you jump, you reduce the time your opponent has to get ready for your smash. In that sense, you force a weaker return when compared to an oppenent thats receiving a standing smash. Once again, as I mentioned before, a strong jump smash will make your quick drops and slices much more effective as your opponent tends to "stick" to the ground to receive a jump smash.

You have missed the point to a jump smash. Jump smash is done by the best attackers in singles and doubles. It has a steeper angle + increased explosiveness after you land (see my point about plyometrics.) It's true the recovery time is longer but your body can come out of it much faster and stronger. Take everything into consideration, I rather recover from a jump smash then a static standing smash because my legs tend to be NOT ready after I do a standing smash.

The thing is, there is quite a lot of long high lifts in womens singles and doubles so the receiver of the smash should have plenty of time. If its an interception shot, then the attacker will often jump, leap, hop or whatever to get to the shuttle quickly. Of course this is good:)

Jumping may possibly increase the array of deception that can be used but just as much, it can tire out the player herself (just like in the men's game).

To be honest, I think that for professionals it is still easier to recoer from a standing smash. With correct weight transfer and body movements and a correct recovery stage which i'm sure is all drilled into them they will be able to recover (if only towards base and not rush the net) and push off the floor rather than landing first, although i understand your point about being able to push off with more explosiveness if u jump.

[nezumi]

women do jump smash!!! ive been playn 4 around 3 years and ive been told that i jump smash a lot of the time!!! its just peoples different playing styles

[ants]

Ladies does have jump smash. But their jump is not as high as the mens.

[silentlight]

he probably meant that when the opponents serve, they effectively "start" your attack since the ball is in your court to set up the attack as you've described above.

Actually you've both misunderstood me, I meant in badminton--the opponent sets up the smash for you =).

[cooler]

Also genetically Women have a higher percentage of Body fat to men, and body fat is a waste of tissue when trying to jump higher, and is bound to reduce the height of the jump.

james, replicate my thought for the 2nd time on this thread. ;)
in cooler's language, the landing is hard on their boobies :D :D

[coolman]

i never seen women do jump smash be4, include high class player such as xxf, zhang ning....can women do jump smash???:p

[cooler]

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22530&highlight=women+jumpsmash

[coolman]

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22530&highlight=women+jumpsmash

thank u very much

[red00ecstrat]

i never seen women do jump smash be4, include high class player such as xxf, zhang ning....can women do jump smash???:p

yip pui yin of hk does that very often! ;)