progession...

[MarkinJapan]

How do you think badminton is progressing?

for example, a top singles player today could utterly destroy of top player from 25 years ago. In jack downey's book (1980) he mentions that training for badminton only came into practice 7 years prior.
When commentating ponsana vs hidayat at the olmpics, gillian mentioned how it was being played in almost an old fashioned way as opposed to the shear athleticism of the power play (eg. out right smash winners from a deep serve)
Seems to me as in the late 80s, the speed and pace of the game was taken to the next level. a guess another land mark would be the move from wood rackets to metal and the increase in tension.

how would yang yang fare against lin dan?

Any thoughts?

[deca2000]

while watching the final game of 2000 olympic between gade and ji xinpeng, I am wondering who is better, the Gade in 2000, or the Gade of today. in other words, how much badminton has advanced during the last 5 years.

if in his peak, is ji going to be the very top player of today? it is always intriguing to ask how those legends, like zhao jianhua, yang yang, lim sie king or even tang xian hu, would be, if they have today's super power rackets and everything. how the techniques are different from 5 years ago, or ten years ago?

[Bbn]

Can't really answer but attached article will confirm what many have already confirmed.

Dave Freeman (see pathe.com), Tang, Hou ,Hartono definitely made the game more athletic.

Msia Tcuppers always say how the old lob, rally game failed when they toured China, they would just leap a metre up in the air and whack it down the sideline.

Recently people like Gade, Taufik, Bao, Cai Yun and Fu

were seen to play this way.

Maybe nowadays everyone has better defence and more people use short service.

[Wizbit]

I think you are asking two questions here, 1. about specific players and 2. about the game in general.

Technique as far as I can tell is not much different from 5 years ago, just that speed and power are a lot more intensive. Non asian countries are catching up technique wise as they all have taken on Asian coaches in some capacity or other, just that their training regime is not as intensive. European players can compete for longer than their Asian counter parts.

Gade has said himself that he is now about 80-90& of his former self. But he got injured and was out for about a year so it is not fair to compare. He has had to change his style because of injury, so he cannot play at pace for extended periods of time. I am sure he would like to think that he is a wiser player now, and a more balanced style.

Ji was an erratic player, he didn't win many tournaments, but the ones he did win, he chose them well :p If he carried on playing I'm sure he would still be good enough to be a second stringer. The problem is, after you win the Olympic gold theres not much else :p

It's difficult to compare players from different eras. Zhao Jian Hua already has arguably the best technique ever in the game, people still look up to learn from him X years since his retirement!


while watching the final game of 2000 olympic between gade and ji xinpeng, I am wondering who is better, the Gade in 2000, or the Gade of today. in other words, how much badminton has advanced during the last 5 years.

if in his peak, is ji going to be the very top player of today? it is always intriguing to ask how those legends, like zhao jianhua, yang yang, lim sie king or even tang xian hu, would be, if they have today's super power rackets and everything. how the techniques are different from 5 years ago, or ten years ago?

[Bbn]

Players are all of about the same standard but sometimes

when I watch new and old players I catch some unique

techniques reminiscent of older players eg:

Taufik and Mia- Very similar to Liem Swie King and Rudy Hartono in terms of fantastic racquet skills,

Lin and Bao-reminiscent of Zhao & Yang Yang, deception
speed and athleticism.Probably learnt from Tang & Hou.

Hafiz- Reminds one of Misbun and Prakash, deceptive strokes, and counter-attacking as in Silat, the faster you hit to me the faster it comes back to you.

Kenneth Jonassen-Erland Kops,Frost and Sven Pri- Ironmen-built on tenacity.

I cant quite place Sun Jun, very similar to early Han Jian.

Gade of 1998/99 I think reminds one a bit of Zhao.

[pandee720]

How do you think badminton is progressing?

for example, a top singles player today could utterly destroy of top player from 25 years ago. In jack downey's book (1980) he mentions that training for badminton only came into practice 7 years prior.
When commentating ponsana vs hidayat at the olmpics, gillian mentioned how it was being played in almost an old fashioned way as opposed to the shear athleticism of the power play (eg. out right smash winners from a deep serve)
Seems to me as in the late 80s, the speed and pace of the game was taken to the next level. a guess another land mark would be the move from wood rackets to metal and the increase in tension.

how would yang yang fare against lin dan?

Any thoughts?
lin dan would probably destroy him
i was watching some old vids and i also watched lin dan. lin dan is more powerful, accurate, and dynamic in my opinion... or maybe it's because of the quality difference of the videos that make the old guy look sluggish... hahaha

[jug8man]

lin dan would probably destroy him
i was watching some old vids and i also watched lin dan. lin dan is more powerful, accurate, and dynamic in my opinion... or maybe it's because of the quality difference of the videos that make the old guy look sluggish... hahaha

i wouldnt blame the video...... i got a good 1 and i have the same opinion (yy vs zhao)

8man

[MarkinJapan]

lin dan would probably destroy him
i was watching some old vids and i also watched lin dan. lin dan is more powerful, accurate, and dynamic in my opinion... or maybe it's because of the quality difference of the videos that make the old guy look sluggish... hahaha
I agree.
But watching a game like sun jun and peter rasmussen in the WC 97, it seems either of them would have felt comfortable transported to 2005. But yeah, watching yang yang, i get the feeling he wouldn't hold much against todays players.
Is the increase in performance a steady curve? ten years from now do you think rasmussen will look as outdated as yang yang does now?
I thought maybe superstar players come about and everyone has to work so much harder to increase their level to compete. The result, a spike in overall performance. But then I thought Kim dong Moon and Ra kyu min. Nobody really touched them.

[Bbn]

if beating an opponent is so easy international players wont need coaching and training anymore.

Its no secret that to this day there are not many national players who can beat Misbun over 1 set,or how Zhao used to thrash all the national players over 1 set after he retired.

in fact many veterans lament how great they would have been if they had the physique of a 20 year old and a brain of a 30 year old.

[Ben Beckman]

i don't think lin dan would trash yang yang. they play very similary with a good attacking game and also a defensive,scrappy game. yang yang was incredibly fast and had fantastic shots.

gade doesn't remind me at all of zhao. gade's footwork is no way near the same and their game plan is different. to me, gade is unique.

the game speed may have changed but fundementals haven't, so if zhao was todays top player like he was then i would put money on him beating the likes of lin dan and the rest.

the player of today who reminds me of zhao is a mixture between bao chunlai and chen hong(bao chunlai's movement around court and chen hongs attacking game)

[Neil Nicholls]

How do you think badminton is progressing?

for example, a top singles player today could utterly destroy of top player from 25 years ago.
I think it would be closer than that.

Even in today's game, just being faster, stronger or having more stamina doesn't automatically mean you will win.
Racquet skills, deception, strategy, thinking, all count for a lot, and the players 25 years ago could do all that.

Modern training techniques, and diets, and whatever, will give today's player an advantage.
But up against a Morten Frost, Han Jian, Liem Swie King, Rudy Hartono, who knows.

[seven]

I think the gift and natural talent are "atemporal".
A genius will always be a genius, whether 25 years ago or today!
Only the means will change.

[Bbn]

I think it is possible to estimate a chances of winning against another top player by using a points system Rg:

1) Can he control the net and force lifts or tumble bird to trouble opponent

2) Can he clip the bird down the line

3) Does he make a lot of mistakes

4) Can he last long fast rallies

5) Is he mentally strong. does he panic when his smashes dont puncture?

6) Are shots accurate?

7) Can he rush the net?

etc etc.

If you use this way and assign points will will find that there are weaknesses in player's games that can be exploited by a smart opponent.

I dont believe Lin Dan scores very high compared to say Taufik, let alone past masters.

[jamesd20]

I agree Lin fails on most of those points, whereas someone like Chen Hong, Taufik,Xia and Gade manage to score in a number of those categories. I would say chen hong scores in all except the panic one.

I would add 2 more to that list.

-can he maintain the above things when his opponents' falter (therfore win)

-Can he withstand prolonged attacks and/or turn around numerous attacks into his own attack


These are just as crucial as the others in being a complete player and consistent winner.

[Morten]

I heard Poul Erik Hoyer said a while ago that in the mid and end of the 90´s badminton changed in pace and power with players like Arbi, Sun Jun and Gade getting on the world scene.

Ive seen a lot of Gades matches from when he was "young" (20-24) or so and i still think when i look back at the WC 99 and 01 and the olympics 00 that he was far beyond the other players in skill, speed and stamina... he just lacked one important thing mental strengh.. I would rate him to be 90% of his former self.. now he has lost a little speed, stamina and power in his smashes but is still capable of winning one of the big titles.. If he hadnt got that injury he would have been cruel when he had acquired the mental strengh and experience he has now.. Sad for Denmark indeed :( .. But the WC05 will be his ;)

[ctjcad]

Read a recent article which interviewed Rudy Hartono. He said during his AE winning streak of 8 straight titles, he didn't have any special "technical" coach(more so because at that time there weren't many coaches). Basically he trained on conditioning/physical area most of the time. Then it was his conditioning coach who sparred with him often, which in turn helped developed his technical skills. He said the main single key in his winning, is how he was able to adapt to different situation in order for him to win. He brought an example of when he was playing in one AE and was down 1-14 and rallied back to win the set and game.
So it was more on the mental strength of a player who will enable he/she to win. But he also added that, it is important to have a "technical" coach.


I think it would be closer than that.

Even in today's game, just being faster, stronger or having more stamina doesn't automatically mean you will win.
Racquet skills, deception, strategy, thinking, all count for a lot, and the players 25 years ago could do all that.

Modern training techniques, and diets, and whatever, will give today's player an advantage.
But up against a Morten Frost, Han Jian, Liem Swie King, Rudy Hartono, who knows.

[Bbn]

I heard Poul Erik Hoyer said a while ago that in the mid and end of the 90´s badminton changed in pace and power with players like Arbi, Sun Jun and Gade getting on the world scene.

Ive seen a lot of Gades matches from when he was "young" (20-24) or so and i still think when i look back at the WC 99 and 01 and the olympics 00 that he was far beyond the other players in skill, speed and stamina... he just lacked one important thing mental strengh.. I would rate him to be 90% of his former self.. now he has lost a little speed, stamina and power in his smashes but is still capable of winning one of the big titles.. If he hadnt got that injury he would have been cruel when he had acquired the mental strengh and experience he has now.. Sad for Denmark indeed :( .. But the WC05 will be his ;)


Why so biased?

I think that if we confine ourselves to Just Denmark

Peter Gade cannot even hold a candle to Morten Frost

if you count the capabilities and success stories.


At 32 and in Tcp he nearly beat Yang Yang and played a few generation of players.

Anyway I am not putting down Lin Dan or anyone else,

I think he has more to work on before being recognised as a master.

[viver]

Bbn,

This article just shows how badly some people took the defeat. It the Chinese then did not bring any innovation in skills why bother learning the attacking clear, slice drops, spinning net play, not to mention the footwork, etc... Indeed losing was already bad, but losing to unknown players was worse. :rolleyes:

On the topic of comparing older generation players with current ones - I don't know how many here watched the older players play. Tang Xian Fu is a class apart (biased?), not only excelling as a player but also as a coach. Punch Gunalan simply said in the 90's, Tang is the greatest player.

Current players Lin Dan should give Yang Yang a good fight, but to Zhao Jianhua at his best, still has some distance to cover in my opinion.

For opinions already expressed about comparing current vs older players -
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=6917




Can't really answer but attached article will confirm what many have already confirmed.

Dave Freeman (see pathe.com), Tang, Hou ,Hartono definitely made the game more athletic.

Msia Tcuppers always say how the old lob, rally game failed when they toured China, they would just leap a metre up in the air and whack it down the sideline.

Recently people like Gade, Taufik, Bao, Cai Yun and Fu

were seen to play this way.

Maybe nowadays everyone has better defence and more people use short service.

[hcyong]

If you build a time machine, extact a prime Yang Yang from the past and ask him to play Lin Dan, Lin will probably win comfortably. Extract Yang Yang when he is just starting to develop, put him alongside Lin Dan in the training camp until they are both mature, let them play each other and circumstances will be different.

[Bbn]

Bbn,

This article just shows how badly some people took the defeat. It the Chinese then did not bring any innovation in skills why bother learning the attacking clear, slice drops, spinning net play, not to mention the footwork, etc... Indeed losing was already bad, but losing to unknown players was worse. :rolleyes:

On the topic of comparing older generation players with current ones - I don't know how many here watched the older players play. Tang Xian Fu is a class apart (biased?), not only excelling as a player but also as a coach. Punch Gunalan simply said in the 90's, Tang is the greatest player.

Current players Lin Dan should give Yang Yang a good fight, but to Zhao Jianhua at his best, still has some distance to cover in my opinion.

For opinions already expressed about comparing current vs older players -
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=6917

I think Lin is far far from Yang Yang and still has much to prove,at present I think he relies heavily on speed and attack , if it fails as against say, Ronald McDonald, then you can see the outcome.What if he faces a total but lazy player like Taufik ?

I think great players cannot rely just on 1,2 weapons.

I cant give recent egs because players nowadays are more versatile, but in 1976 Thomas Cup Ilie Sumirat, the then successor to Rudy was well thrashed by Pandid Jaiyan of Thailand, and Pandid just manipulated Sumirat just ard the net!and that was against the men who just beat Tang and Hou!

Charoen Wattanasin of Thailand was a great smasher like

Freeman or Gunalan but ironman Kops just kept returning every shot and won the AE!

[economet]

According to a former member of the Chinese National Squad who knew Zhao ZH, YY, Bao Chunlai, Lin Dan, Chen Hong, XIa XZ and the coaches the players of nowadays are not faster. It's true that there was a change of paradigm in the late 80's and in the beginning of 90's in the badminton world.

This player also played against all these different players during his long career (1990 - 2005) he just finished, and he won against Bao Chunlai in the China National Championship 2002. And against Kenneth Jonassen in the German League. He said the technique of the older players is definitely better than now. Peter Gade is still playing and has got a superb technique, maybe the only current player comparable to the old ones. Even Lin Dan has got several points in which he can improve and is not faster than the Indonsian players of the 90's.

Maybe I should ask him how the match between YY and Lin Dan would like to end. I already asked him about Zhao ZH and Lin Dan and his answer was a clear win of Zhao ZH.

[Syaoran_Style]

Not really agree with this guy ... i read somewhere in this forum that even susi susanti said that she's sure that if she plays the chinese she can't beat them .. so why it wouldn't be the same for all current great guys players ???
It's the same in every sport i'm sure John mc enroe can't take even one game to roger federer, i saw some old match and i found lin dan fastest than them,
say that Zhao JH will win clearly to Lin dan it's a bit crazy !! lol from my point of view players of nowdays are clearly better than old players =p Today we have maybe more skills and players are more extravagant in their shot that's maybe why i think that :rolleyes:

[Bbn]

I can give you many egs of players faster than those today.

Ard 1980-1984 there was this Player Chen Chang Jie

who wa sos fast round the court , 2 steps to the net , 2 backward etc reminiscent of Tang, at first he beat

everybody but later everyone just knew how to anticipate and blunt his speed.I dont think there is a player as speedy as Chen except Gade in 198/99.

If speed alone can win China would not have lost the Tcp from 1992-2002.

Susi has a counterpart today in Gong Rui Na alias Ah Lian

and also Gong Zhi Chao.

Players may not be faster than past in singles but much faster in doubles because of more strokes per minute because of racquet flex?

[seven]

Not really agree with this guy ... i read somewhere in this forum that even susi susanti said that she's sure that if she plays the chinese she can't beat them ..
If we are talking about the same thing, Susi Susanti said she didn't know whether she would beat them (or something of this sort), she didn't say she couldn't beat them!
There's quite a difference... :rolleyes:

[jamesd20]

Plus there is a huge difference between the Womens game and Mens game. They are not really linked.

I concur that the top players now (2000+) are not as good as mid eighties to late nineties. In those days there were complete players for their style (PEHL, YY, ZJH, Frost etc..) these days you dont see many complete players. Chen Hong is close, but his mental side lets him down. As Bbn states Lin relies overly on his speed Xia is not consistent, Taufik neither.

Gade is in between, not quite good enough in the late 90's, but slowed now and still a fraction off.

Bottom line is that it is generally agreed he is 90% of 97-2000 gade, and yet still world number 1. If that doesnt show the standard is lower, what does?


Comparisons beyond 20 years are difficult as the overlaps become less documented. I have seen one Hartono game (TC1982 losing to luan jin) and he could do everything the players can now (actually luan could jump as high, attack short serves, and smash as hard as players now) Just camera quality and angles make things look different, so we automatically think it is worse.

[MarkinJapan]

Bottom line is that it is generally agreed he is 90% of 97-2000 gade, and yet still world number 1. If that doesnt show the standard is lower, what does?

when was the last time Gade was #1?

[Bbn]

If a player is great why does he need 3 sets to demolish lesser opponents?

People like Yang Yang, Zhao , Gade can demolish opponents for less than 5 points.

eg, Zhao vs Joko, YY vs Frost 1988 Tcp.

I think tp players can demollish lesser players by speed alone,because many lesser players lack skill but players at the top have more than speed.

Eg Zhang Ning makes Pi Hong Yan look as if Zhang was playing an elder instead of vice versa.

i think players who were very devastating were people YY, Zhao, Gade etc.they were real fast and if that fails very versatile too.

If speed only can beat opponents than Bao Cun Lai and Zhang Jun would be unbeatable.

[Bbn]

I forgot someone once said its not how fast the opponent

attacks you.

If the opponent is fast but you know what's he's going to do and you are waiting at the net to give him a tumbler or waiting at base or corner of the court for his smash then what good is speed?You'll need more than speed.

I think players nowadays who think they can beat masters just by speed are in for a nasty surprise.

Maybe Cai Yun & Fu can prove us all wrong ?

[deca2000]

People like Yang Yang, Zhao , Gade can demolish opponents for less than 5 points.

eg, Zhao vs Joko, YY vs Frost 1988 Tcp.


well, if that happens, then it is definitely a fixed game.:D

[viver]

Anybody watched the World Championships finals, 1998(?) in Jakarta, between Yang Yang and Ardy Wiranata? Though the video appears the players are moving slowly, but from the way YY's retrievals around the court will give you an idea about his speed. Zhao Jianhua is similar to YY only on turbo speed.

All people discussing here about the players abilities/speed seen during games. My opinion is, to truly evaluate a player is watching them in training too. There you can really have a much better idea what they are capable of.

A former Chinese player mentioned Hou JiaChang in practice sessions being able to move base/net 30 times in about 30s - guess this is slow by today's standards. :confused:

Tang XianFu, if you are able to get videos/photos of him demonstrating the skills about 40 years ago and you'll see how much has (not) changed. :rolleyes:

[Bbn]

Maybe someone patient enough can watch following games and count no.of exchanges over a 5 min period and confirm whether the speed is different :

1) 1983 WC-Luan Jin-Frost
2) 1982 T C-Liem Swie King-Chen Chang Jie
3) 1985 AE-Zhao-Frost
4)1989 AE-YY-Frost
5) 1988 GP-Sun Jun-Gade
6) 1989 AE-YY-Frost
7) 2004 Tc-Bao-Jonassen
8) 2004 TC-Bao-Taufik

They were all played at a very hot pace throughout.

If the same exercise was done to men's doubles I think recent games are much faster.

[Neil Nicholls]

I have some data from 2003 AE

Quarter-Final: Roslin Hashim vs Kenneth Jonassen
Game 1:
38 rallies, 381 shots, average rally length 10
shuttle in play 6min 10sec

Game 2:
48 rallies, 470 shots, average rally length 9.8
shuttle in play 12min 41sec

total elapsed time 43 min, shuttle in play 44%


Semi-Final: Chen Hong vs Roslin Hashim
Game 1:
81 rallies, 807 shots, average rally length 10
shuttle in play 13 min

Game 2:
36 rallies, 309 shots, average rally length 8.6
shuttle in play 5 min

total elapsed time 70 min, shuttle in play 26%


Final: Chen Hong vs Hafiz Hashim
part of Game 1:
52 rallies, 402 shots, average rally length 7.7
elapsed 23min, shuttle in play 7 min, 30%

Game 2:
49 rallies, 416 shots, average rally length 8.5
elapsed 39min, shuttle in play 6 min, 15%

total elapsed time 62 min, shuttle in play 21%


I'll try to look at some old stuff
Choose from
1989 AE Yang Yang vs Morten Frost
1986 TC Xiong Guabao vs Liem Swie King
1985 WC Han Jian vs Morten Frost
1985 AE Zhao Jianhua vs Liem Swie King
1985 AE Zhao Jianhua vs Morten Frost
1982 TC Han Jian vs Liem Swie King

[ants]

I have some data from 2003 AE

Quarter-Final: Roslin Hashim vs Kenneth Jonassen
Game 1:
38 rallies, 381 shots, average rally length 10
shuttle in play 6min 10sec

Game 2:
48 rallies, 470 shots, average rally length 9.8
shuttle in play 12min 41sec

total elapsed time 43 min, shuttle in play 44%


Semi-Final: Chen Hong vs Roslin Hashim
Game 1:
81 rallies, 807 shots, average rally length 10
shuttle in play 13 min

Game 2:
36 rallies, 309 shots, average rally length 8.6
shuttle in play 5 min

total elapsed time 70 min, shuttle in play 26%


Final: Chen Hong vs Hafiz Hashim
part of Game 1:
52 rallies, 402 shots, average rally length 7.7
elapsed 23min, shuttle in play 7 min, 30%

Game 2:
49 rallies, 416 shots, average rally length 8.5
elapsed 39min, shuttle in play 6 min, 15%

total elapsed time 62 min, shuttle in play 21%


I'll try to look at some old stuff
Choose from
1989 AE Yang Yang vs Morten Frost
1986 TC Xiong Guabao vs Liem Swie King
1985 WC Han Jian vs Morten Frost
1985 AE Zhao Jianhua vs Liem Swie King
1985 AE Zhao Jianhua vs Morten Frost
1982 TC Han Jian vs Liem Swie King

I'm amazed.. how did u do that??

[seven]

Great stats Neil! Very interesting... I too wonder how you did that!? :eek:

[Neil Nicholls]

watch the game
start and stop stopwatch at start and end of rallies
write down shots played in each rally

I think at the time, there was a discussion in BF about tennis v badminton and the old stats about how long the ball was in play etc for each match were quoted, and I wanted to see what the stats were like for the modern game.

I think the 44% shuttle in play time between Roslin and Jonassen is remarkable.
Especially compared to 15% for Game2 of Chen v Hafiz.
The average rally lengths were quite similar, so you can see who was clearing and who was smashing.

[ants]

Maybe next time you could add.. how many smashes , drops , net , backhand etc..

[jamesd20]

Maybe next time you could add.. how many smashes , drops , net , backhand etc..


He has a full time job as well you know!!

but while you are at it neil, how about an analysis of a Hartono game too. If you have the TC1982 from Han then he plays in that one (G1 +G3 only)! :D :D

[Neil Nicholls]

Maybe next time you could add.. how many smashes , drops , net , backhand etc..
I don't think I will
you are welcome to try

[Neil Nicholls]

He has a full time job as well you know!!

but while you are at it neil, how about an analysis of a Hartono game too. If you have the TC1982 from Han then he plays in that one (G1 +G3 only)! :D :D
and a 5 day a week badminton habit
and 2 dogs that need walking

Luan Jin vs Rudy Hartono
OK

[Neil Nicholls]

TC Final 1982: Rudy Hartono (age 32) vs Luan Jin (age 23)
Game 1: 9-15
45 rallies, 224 shots, average rally length 5
elapsed 20:18min, shuttle in play 6:19min, 31%

Game 2: 15-1
22 rallies, 192 shots, average rally length 8.7
elapsed 10:36min, shuttle in play 3:05min, 29%

Game 3: 9-15
39 rallies, 336 shots, average rally length 8.6
elapsed 17:50min, shuttle in play 5:22min, 21%

total elapsed time 48:44min, shuttle in play 14:46min 21%
total shots: 752 in 14:46min is 0.85 shots per second

The commentators said Hartono had not played a competitive match for 12 months. Luan Jin at times was trying to play on Rudy's age by dragging the rallies out. In the 2nd game Luan was hopeless, but he pretty much overpowered Rudy in the 3rd, getting 13-3 then going walkabout (like Xia XuanZe) for 6 points until closing it out

Stats from an old game where both players are near their peak would be more helpful I think. The 21% shuttle in play shows the extra time Hartono spent between rallies getting his breath back.


Roslin v Jonassen
total shots: 851 in 18:51min is 0.75 shots per second
total elapsed time 43 min, shuttle in play 44%

Chen Hong v Roslin
total shots: 1116 in 18:00min is 1.03 shots per second
total elapsed time 70 min, shuttle in play 26%

Chen Hong v Hafiz
total shots: 818 in 12:54min is 1.06 shots per second
total elapsed time 62 min, shuttle in play 21%

[jamesd20]

Game 2: 15-1
22 rallies, 192 shots, average rally length 8.7
elapsed 10:36min, shuttle in play 3:05min, 29%

The commentators said Hartono had not played a competitive match for 12 months. Luan Jin at times was trying to play on Rudy's age by dragging the rallies out. In the 2nd game Luan was hopeless, but he pretty much overpowered Rudy in the 3rd, getting 13-3 then going walkabout (like Xia XuanZe) for 6 points until closing it out


You have game 2?? My version doesn't.

Are you not at work?? how did you manage to do it so quick?

[seven]

TC Final 1982: Rudy Hartono (age 32) vs Luan Jin (age 23)
total elapsed time 48:44min, shuttle in play 14:46min 21%
total shots: 752 in 14:46min is 0.85 shots per second

Roslin v Jonassen
total shots: 851 in 18:51min is 0.75 shots per second
total elapsed time 43 min, shuttle in play 44%

Chen Hong v Roslin
total shots: 1116 in 18:00min is 1.03 shots per second
total elapsed time 70 min, shuttle in play 26%

Chen Hong v Hafiz
total shots: 818 in 12:54min is 1.06 shots per second
total elapsed time 62 min, shuttle in play 21%
From these figures, there is no clear difference between the 80s and nowadays... :rolleyes:

[Neil Nicholls]

You have game 2?? My version doesn't.
Are you not at work?? how did you manage to do it so quick?
my version does.
Working from home today ;)
did it in my lunch break ;) ;)

[jamesd20]

the shots/second is the key thing. I might have to try this a few times to get a better average. Any Bfers like to add, we can show quite well whether or not the game is faster now or 20-30 years ago. (note I say faster, not better)


BTW neil, I dont think you are doing much work from the amount of time you have been on! I am on Holiday! :D

[Neil Nicholls]

From these figures, there is no clear difference between the 80s and nowadays... :rolleyes:
I'll do some more 80s soon

you can see that today's fast attacking players work harder within each rally, but spend even longer between rallies to recover.

Or maybe Roslin and Jonassen are both extreme examples

[economet]

Thanks a lot for this intensive and objective comparison!

[Bbn]

Great job Neil.

Old time coaches used to compute this stuff.

I think if you analyse the 1985 Zhao vs Frost or

Liem SK matches they were played at a very high speed. that was the watershed in speed in 80s.

[Bbn]

Great job Neil.

Old time coaches used to compute this stuff.

I think if you analyse the 1985 Zhao vs Frost or

Liem SK matches they were played at a very high speed. that was the watershed in speed in 80s.

By the way Neil did you notice those video cameras aimed at you in the office?

I would take James' s advice and do it in own time,

Big Brother is watching!

[Neil Nicholls]

By the way Neil did you notice those video cameras aimed at you in the office?
I doubt if they can see into my library in the south wing.
And like I said, it was my lunch break ;)

[economet]

Quite a long lunch break you had or still have?!;)
I doubt if they can see into my library in the south wing.
And like I said, it was my lunch break ;)

[jug8man]

ho-boy! this is gonna make me really unpopular........ but this is my honest opinion and i mean to share it.

reason 1) liem swie king was still playing when zhao jian hua 'showed up'

>liem met a physically under developed young zhao in the 1985 All England Semifinals. lim went on to be out-played in all departments by this young 'freshie' from china.

>the fact that he was totally eclipsed in this match by another player means that he did not 'dominate badminton' in his playing 'era' -------> which was 1 big requirement to be classified as a badminton legend in another thread in this forum.

> liem's footwork and many of his strokes looked inferior and under-developed compared to zhao's array of strokes and light & smooth court coverage.
zhao could execute more variety of strokes under a shorter execution period.... where as lim looked like he needed an extra 1/2 second (than zhao)before he could convert a forehand option from just a lob to a a lob, smash or drop.

> i consider zhao in 1985 to be still 'under developed physically' as the best i've seen him play was in the 1990 all england final againts joko suprianto where his physical form finally complimented his skill and technique level. to say it bluntly...... zhao was playing with a physical handicap againts lim and still got the job done.

> the pace of the game was fast..... but liem (except for a few occasions) could not take advantage of most of the overhead / forehand shots.... he could only play a 'fast rally' game that certainly can not be compared againts the 'fast offensive game' of today.




reason 2) han jian vs liem swie king 1984 world champ semifinals

>the pace of the game looked abhorently slow compared to todays game

> you dont see much fast jumping / hopping around the court tho the players do seem like they are bouncing like beans around court at a contant pace. i think what i mean to say is there is an absence of explosive footwork (most of the time)

>players response to shooting lobs and flicks were commonly taking the shuttle from behind ----- hardly legendary.

> there were brief moments of fantastic sudden speed and power.... but few and far in between.


thats all i have to say for the moment....... this is just based on watching videos of the matches....


cheers

8man

[Neil Nicholls]

reason 2) han jian vs liem swie king 1984 world champ semifinals
>the pace of the game looked abhorently slow compared to todays game

Well that game must be nothing like the 1982 Thomas Cup Final game between those two. I've just watched that and noted the stats.

summary
Han Jian v Liem Swie King
total shots: 1390 in 24:39min is 0.94 shots per second
total elapsed time 62 min, shuttle in play 40%

I think that beats the pants of some modern players

(gotta go....I'm playing a match in 15 minutes)

[jug8man]

Well that game must be nothing like the 1982 Thomas Cup Final game between those two. I've just watched that and noted the stats.

summary
Han Jian v Liem Swie King
total shots: 1390 in 24:39min is 0.94 shots per second
total elapsed time 62 min, shuttle in play 40%

I think that beats the pants of some modern players

(gotta go....I'm playing a match in 15 minutes)


say....... dont you think that that data is biased (if compared to today's game data) due to the said 2 players lack of ability to kill the shuttle from the base line (read: baseline, not 3/4 not 4/5.... baseline)

8man

[Morten]

Im not sure but I think Gade once mentioned that the speed in the game hasnt been upgraded since he begun as a 18 year old kid. The defence of the players has and because of that the pace in thegame has from before his injury been going from pace all the time to counterattacking style like young players Lin Dan, Taufik, Bao and hafiz does

[Bbn]

please dont humiliate legends like Rudyt Hartono or Liem Swie King,

liem SK when playing Zhao was 27 years old, well past his best in 1981 when he won his last AE,all his best was pre 1981 he only played for Ina because there was no one else to hold the fort.

As for Zhao in 1985 he was the kid who increased the pace of the game with many drives doubles style,he later changed it when he found his stamina waning and consisitently beaten by players like Frost, Foo KK and Hemndry Ho.

As for Rudy Hartono in 1982 he was 32 years old, well past his best in 1976 when he won the AE.

Pace of game surely must have increased, racquets are stronger so that more strokes could be generated per second, but although more rapid, older players hit harder esp smashes.

Also more players in fecent times played faster because iof eg. better training.

if players play at maximum speed they will falter after 10 points or 3 rallies and need rest.So they may vary speed.

Anyway the idea is to show that players in the past could play at speeds comparable to speeds today or vice versa, if the situation demands.

[Neil Nicholls]

say....... dont you think that that data is biased (if compared to today's game data) due to the said 2 players lack of ability to kill the shuttle from the base line (read: baseline, not 3/4 not 4/5.... baseline)

8man
The data is not biased. It is fact.
How the data is interpreted can be open to bias and mistake.

Who can regulary kill the shuttle from the baseline (read: baseline, not 3/4 not 4/5.... baseline) in today's game then?

[Bbn]

The data is not biased. It is fact.
How the data is interpreted can be open to bias and mistake.

Who can regulary kill the shuttle from the baseline (read: baseline, not 3/4 not 4/5.... baseline) in today's game then?


liem Swie King vs Han Jian can never be fast, the idea was always to outlast each other.

Players like Chen Chang Jie and even Frost at that time were faster.

Anyway history has never done justice to players like Hartono,Liem SK or Tjun Tjun who were well ahead of their time, we only see them at their worst.

Players who are bold enough to smash from Base include Taufik, Bao and Gade of the 90s.

[jug8man]

didnt mean to humilate anybody. sorry as it was not my intent, tho i knew that was how it was going to look like in the first place. i just needed to share my opinion based on what i saw personaly.


please dont humiliate legends like Rudyt Hartono or Liem Swie King,

liem SK when playing Zhao was 27 years old, well past his best in 1981 when he won his last AE,all his best was pre 1981 he only played for Ina because there was no one else to hold the fort.

As for Zhao in 1985 he was the kid who increased the pace of the game with many drives doubles style,he later changed it when he found his stamina waning and consisitently beaten by players like Frost, Foo KK and Hemndry Ho.

As for Rudy Hartono in 1982 he was 32 years old, well past his best in 1976 when he won the AE.

Pace of game surely must have increased, racquets are stronger so that more strokes could be generated per second, but although more rapid, older players hit harder esp smashes.

Also more players in fecent times played faster because iof eg. better training.

if players play at maximum speed they will falter after 10 points or 3 rallies and need rest.So they may vary speed.

Anyway the idea is to show that players in the past could play at speeds comparable to speeds today or vice versa, if the situation demands.

yes i agree. better training today is the major factor leading to higher advance play in todays game. i never said (and im not saying u said i said ;) ) that todays players were born better..... just that they are trained better.
we can all agree that talent can only take us so far in badminton without a proper level of training. just look at taufik.......... he come running home to pelatnas everytime he leaves coz he knows he cant make it with out proper training.

champions are made, not born..... thats my motto.

[jug8man]

liem Swie King vs Han Jian can never be fast, the idea was always to outlast each other.

Players like Chen Chang Jie and even Frost at that time were faster.

Anyway history has never done justice to players like Hartono,Liem SK or Tjun Tjun who were well ahead of their time, we only see them at their worst.

Players who are bold enough to smash from Base include Taufik, Bao and Gade of the 90s.


yes i agree..... especially in the 90's where defence hasnt picked up to today's standard. just as morten have quoted peter gade.

i would say definetely gade and taufik in the 90's. im guessing hariyanto arbi but i havent seen his game lately (on video).

2000-2005

definetely chen hong..... he could do it easyly at first and i believe he was such a force to reckon with that he forced everyone to improve on the defence of the game. i remember he could still pull it off (killing from baseline) with consecutive attacks of jumping smash to reply every smash reply.
sure it sort of made the game a bit predictable..... but it WAS a working gameplan.

Lin Dan has good killing ability..... the last i saw him play wong choon hann in the all england semifinals this year.

taufik was amazingly killing from the baseline in the olympics like almost nobody's business. amazing placement (and tight angles) and deception as well as speed of the shots made easy work of many of his opponents in an abrupt manner.

[Neil Nicholls]

summary
TC82 Han Jian v Liem Swie King
total shots: 1390 in 24:39min is 0.94 shots per second
total elapsed time 62 min, shuttle in play 40%
detail
Game 1: 15-12
57 rallies, 459 shots, average rally length 8.1
elapsed 20:55min, shuttle in play 7:55min, 38% , 0.97 shots/s

Game 2: 11-15
51 rallies, 435 shots, average rally length 8.5
elapsed 19:13min, shuttle in play 7:53min, 41% , 0.92 shots/s

Game 3: 17-14
54 rallies, 496 shots, average rally length 9.2
elapsed 21:54min, shuttle in play 8:51min, 40% , 0.93 shots/s

[Neil Nicholls]

TC82 Liem Swie King v Chen Chang Jie

Game 1: 15-8
38 rallies, 276 shots, average rally length 7.3
elapsed 12:38min, shuttle in play 4:29min, 35% , 1.03 shots/s

Game 2: 15-13
49 rallies, 394 shots, average rally length 8.0
elapsed 18:21min, shuttle in play 6:33min, 36% , 1.00 shots/s

total shots: 670 in 11:02min is 1.01 shots per second
total elapsed time 30:59min, shuttle in play 36%

There was a 2 minute break in play near the end of game to for repairs to the court. This is excluded from the times.

[Neil Nicholls]

TC04 Kenneth Jonassen v Bao Chun Lai

Game 1: 15-12
42 rallies, 430 shots, average rally length 10.2
elapsed 20:44min, shuttle in play 6:03min, 29% , 1.18 shots/s

Game 2: 15-17
61 rallies, 781 shots, average rally length 12.8
elapsed 34:05min, shuttle in play 9:04min, 27% , 1.44 shots/s

Game 3: 12-15
47 rallies, 478 shots, average rally length 10.2
elapsed 27:19min, shuttle in play 6:47min, 25% , 1.17 shots/s

total shots: 1689 in 21:54min is 1.29 shots per second
total elapsed time 1:22:08hr, shuttle in play 27%

:eek: fast and furious indeed

[jamesd20]

The LSK Vs Chen chang jie looks fast on paper. Have to watch it.

BCL Vs KJ looks out of this world! I remember putting it down as on of my favourite, but didn't think it was so quick!

[Bbn]

Bet that if Zhao vs Frost & LSK were timed

it would be faster than Liem Swie King vs Chen Chang Jie

or the 1983 games between Luan Jin & Frost.

I think all the Taufik vs Chen Hong games can rival Bao

and all games played by Roslin, Ong Ewe Hock or Hafiz will be quite slow,

because of tactics.

[ants]

The game now has changed.. the pace , speed , techiques. But basically what makes a champion nowadays is stamina , speed , brains and mental toughness. For the pros.. i think they already have all the techniques and they can cover the court well.

[Neil Nicholls]

AE85 Zhao Jian Hua v Morten Frost

Game 1: 6-15
48 rallies, 380 shots, average rally length 7.9
elapsed 16:06min, shuttle in play 5:40min, 35% , 1.12 shots/s

Game 2: 15-10
52 rallies, 444 shots, average rally length 8.5
elapsed 18:47min, shuttle in play 6:52min, 37% , 1.08 shots/s

Game 3: 18-15
61 rallies, 551 shots, average rally length 9.0
elapsed 23:34min, shuttle in play 8:26min, 36% , 1.09 shots/s

total shots: 1375 in 20:58min is 1.09 shots per second
total elapsed time 58:27min, shuttle in play 36%


All these old matches seem to have very short breaks between the rallies.
Were the umpires more strict back then about play being continuous?

[Bbn]

AE85 Zhao Jian Hua v Morten Frost

Game 1: 6-15
48 rallies, 380 shots, average rally length 7.9
elapsed 16:06min, shuttle in play 5:40min, 35% , 1.12 shots/s

Game 2: 15-10
52 rallies, 444 shots, average rally length 8.5
elapsed 18:47min, shuttle in play 6:52min, 37% , 1.08 shots/s

Game 3: 18-15
61 rallies, 551 shots, average rally length 9.0
elapsed 23:34min, shuttle in play 8:26min, 36% , 1.09 shots/s

total shots: 1375 in 20:58min is 1.09 shots per second
total elapsed time 58:27min, shuttle in play 36%


All these old matches seem to have very short breaks between the rallies.
Were the umpires more strict back then about play being continuous?

No, players then were not so cynical or pro and rarely

wasted time except for people like Prakash .

I think the fastest games ever played has to be those in

2002 during the 7 points system or in the 90s between Gade or Sun Jun,

[Neil Nicholls]

AE04 Peter Gade v Lin Dan

Game 1: 15-9
55 rallies, 505 shots, average rally length 9.2
elapsed 30:54min, shuttle in play 8:11min, 26% , 1.03 shots/s

Game 2: 5-15
39 rallies, 334 shots, average rally length 8.6
elapsed 19:17min, shuttle in play 5:12min, 27% , 1.07 shots/s

Game 3: 8-15
33 rallies, 304 shots, average rally length 9.2
elapsed 17:53min, shuttle in play 4:41min, 26% , 1.08 shots/s

total shots: 1143 in 18:04min is 1.05 shots per second
total elapsed time 1:08:04hr, shuttle in play 27%

[MarkinJapan]

AE04 Peter Gade v Lin Dan

Game 1: 15-9
55 rallies, 505 shots, average rally length 9.2
elapsed 30:54min, shuttle in play 8:11min, 26% , 1.03 shots/s

Game 2: 5-15
39 rallies, 334 shots, average rally length 8.6
elapsed 19:17min, shuttle in play 5:12min, 27% , 1.07 shots/s

Game 3: 8-15
33 rallies, 304 shots, average rally length 9.2
elapsed 17:53min, shuttle in play 4:41min, 26% , 1.08 shots/s

total shots: 1143 in 18:04min is 1.05 shots per second
total elapsed time 1:08:04hr, shuttle in play 27%
thanks neil, this was one of the games I had in mind when I first started thinking about old styles vs new.

[jamesd20]

I think you should stop now neil, for your personal lifes' sake!

I felt that AE 04 was played at quite a slow pace. I would say the TC 92 Final 1st singles Rafiz Vs Ardy is the slowest game i can remember watching. (good game too.) I am going to try get the stats for that one.

[Bbn]

I think you should stop now neil, for your personal lifes' sake!

I felt that AE 04 was played at quite a slow pace. I would say the TC 92 Final 1st singles Rafiz Vs Ardy is the slowest game i can remember watching. (good game too.) I am going to try get the stats for that one.


Agreed.
Very soon you'll be analysing games in dreams.

I think anyone keen on analysing games should do so on their own and just post outcome here.

[seven]

From the figures I have seen up to now, it seems we can say :
* number of shots/s is similar between the 80s and nowadays
* average rally length is quite similar too

But :
* "Shuttle in play" ratio is much lower nowadays (25-30% nowadays against 35-40% in the 80s)

Should we conclude that there is much less intensity nowadays?

[jamesd20]

If you class intensity as the sustained play (without breaks) then yes. The clear correlation between the figures of old and new shows that the players take more rest in between rallies.

[Bbn]

In 80s except for China there was less centralised training and pros.

Nowadays countires like Msia , Ina ,Korea have full time pros.And it costs a lot to keep them.

To remain at the top one must in tip top competition,if not

opponents will just annihilate the player who cant last the fast pace.

So there is little room for players who are not pros and full-timers, its like pro football, is it globalisation of the sport?
Or is affirmative action or sanctions the answer?

[Neil Nicholls]

I think you should stop now neil, for your personal lifes' sake!

I'm currently off work with flu. Can't move around much because all my muscles ache. So if I'm stuck in the house not moving much, I might as well watch some badminton. It's time for some Sun Jun v Heryanto Arbi and Sun Jun v Peter Gade from 1998. I just hope I recover in time for Hull this weekend.

[jamesd20]

It's time for some Sun Jun v Heryanto Arbi and Sun Jun v Peter Gade from 1998. I just hope I recover in time for Hull this weekend.

Sun Jun Gade good match.

Get well soon, hope to see this weekend, dont push yourself.

[seven]

If you class intensity as the sustained play (without breaks) then yes. The clear correlation between the figures of old and new shows that the players take more rest in between rallies.
Well, I was waiting for people's reactions here... :rolleyes:

I would say that if players take more time between rallies, it probably means there is more intensity in the rallies.
However the figures seem to show number of shots per second and average rally length are pretty similar to what they were in the 80s.
A possible explanation would be that the game is more "athletic" nowadays (jumps etc..), which means that an average shot takes up more energy than it used to in the 80s...

What do you think?

[jamesd20]

I think before the Jumps were less. The size of the jumps are the same IMO (height), but the frequesncy is less.

More jumps will reduce the shots/sec IMO beacause when you jump up, yes you are taking the shot earlier, but you take the following shot later, and your opponents block can therfore be slower. If you remain on the ground, you can smash, and move to the net quicker than jumping. With a big jump, the shuttle may well have been returned (hit) by your opponents when you land.

[Neil Nicholls]

Grand Prix Finals 1998 Sun Jun v Peter Gade

Game 1: 15-11
53 rallies, 405 shots, average rally length 7.6
elapsed 22:00min, shuttle in play 6:06min, 28% , 1.11 shots/s

Game 2: 15-8
45 rallies, 321 shots, average rally length 7.1
elapsed 19:44min, shuttle in play 5:09min, 26% , 1.04 shots/s

total shots: 726 in 11:15min is 1.08 shots per second
total elapsed time 41:44min, shuttle in play 27%

[mulliet]

Grand Prix Finals 1998 Sun Jun v Peter Gade

Game 1: 15-11
53 rallies, 405 shots, average rally length 7.6
elapsed 22:00min, shuttle in play 6:06min, 28% , 1.11 shots/s

Game 2: 15-8
45 rallies, 321 shots, average rally length 7.1
elapsed 19:44min, shuttle in play 5:09min, 26% , 1.04 shots/s

total shots: 726 in 11:15min is 1.08 shots per second
total elapsed time 41:44min, shuttle in play 27%
hmm.. Chen Chang Jie is my coach.. I remember him telling me about the times hes beaten Morten Frost etc etc... And your right he is still lightning fast.. and his smash is awesome...

[Neil Nicholls]

TC04 Kenneth Jonassen v Bao Chun Lai

Game 1: 15-12
42 rallies, 430 shots, average rally length 10.2
elapsed 20:44min, shuttle in play 6:03min, 29% , 1.18 shots/s

Game 2: 15-17
61 rallies, 781 shots, average rally length 12.8
elapsed 34:05min, shuttle in play 9:04min, 27% , 1.44 shots/s

Game 3: 12-15
47 rallies, 478 shots, average rally length 10.2
elapsed 27:19min, shuttle in play 6:47min, 25% , 1.17 shots/s

total shots: 1689 in 21:54min is 1.29 shots per second
total elapsed time 1:22:08hr, shuttle in play 27%


Game 2: 15-17
61 rallies, 628 shots, average rally length 10.3
elapsed 34:05min, shuttle in play 9:04min, 27% , 1.15 shots/s

total shots: 1536 in 21:54min is 1.17 shots per second
total elapsed time 1:22:08hr, shuttle in play 27%

[jug8man]

Game 2: 15-17
61 rallies, 628 shots, average rally length 10.3
elapsed 34:05min, shuttle in play 9:04min, 27% , 1.15 shots/s

total shots: 1536 in 21:54min is 1.17 shots per second
total elapsed time 1:22:08hr, shuttle in play 27%

Neil

are you sure you arent a statistician?


8man

[Neil Nicholls]

Neil

are you sure you arent a statistician?


8man
I'm 95% confident that I'm not a statistician :p

[jug8man]

I'm 95% confident that I'm not a statistician :p

hillarious! :D that was a classy response ;)

[weeyet]

Imagine stable and skillful Ricky/Rexy playing against Eriksen/Lungaard??

[weeyet]

Are there any common places among players like Arbi Heryanto, Taufik Hidayat, Sony Dwi Kuncoro, Lin Dan??

Compared to players like Poul-Erik Hoyer-Larsen, Peter Gade, Sun Jun, Wong Choong Hann, Chen Hong?

[weeyet]

If speed alone can win China would not have lost the Tcp from 1992-2002.


If speed alone can win, Poul-Erik Hoyer-Larsen and Dong Jiong would have switched their medal colours....

[Neil Nicholls]

Wimbledon MS Finals 2005 Roger Federer v Andy Roddick

Set 2: 6-6 Tiebreak 7-2
81 rallies
including service faults
386 shots, average rally length 4.8
elapsed 47:00min, ball in play 7:08min, 15% , 0.90 shots/s

excluding service faults
353 shots, average rally length 4.4
shots/s would be between 0.82 and 0.9 if service faults are excluded


Have the number of breaks been reduced in tennis nowadays?
And duration of break reduced from 2 minutes to 90 seconds?