Morten Frost Says China Can Be Beaten

[Loh]

As TV guest commentator for the Sudirman Cup tie of China versus Indonesia on Thursday, the legendary Morten Frost commented that China can be beaten.

He cautioned against simply copying China's present style of training with great reliance on speed and power. Europeans especially, should maintain a different approach and the secret lies in "anticipation and control" and a very strong defense. One has to play smart, it seems.

In the MS match between Lin Dan and Sony, he pointed out that Sony's stout defense against Lin's smashes and his good control at the net especially, have frustrated Lin time and again. I thought Sony should win the first game had he not lapsed in concentration in the crucial moments. Btw, he has high admiration for Limpele.

When asked whether Lin Dan is better than the likes of Yang Yang and Han Jian, Frost did not think so, but with more time, a good player like Lin will be able to match the great badminton players of old. :D

What say you?

[ctjcad]

Totally agree here with the comment about LinDan "better than previous" older players...Today I saw LinDan play, just for the 2nd time ever, the other time was when they played the Thomas Cup last year or the year before..Today vs. Sony Kuncoro, LinDan didn't really impress me...He's agile and fast, but technique-wise was "below" than that of Sony..Esp. when forced to play at the net, I thought Sony was "better" than LinDan where he made many self-errors and seemed hesitant..
For some reason, I felt the fundamental techniques for Sony is overall "better" than LinDan..I thought Sony just simply ran out of gas by the end of the 1st set..Hope Sony can get more playing time before the WC in August, to build up his stamina..


As TV guest commentator for the Sudirman Cup tie of China versus Indonesia on Thursday, the legendary Morten Frost commented that China can be beaten.

He cautioned against simply copying China's present style of training with great reliance on speed and power. Europeans especially, should maintain a different approach and the secret lies in "anticipation and control" and a very strong defense. One has to play smart, it seems.

In the MS match between Lin Dan and Sony, he pointed out that Sony's stout defense against Lin's smashes and his good control at the net especially, have frustrated Lin time and again. I thought Sony should win the first game had he not lapsed in concentration in the crucial moments. Btw, he has high admiration for Limpele.

When asked whether Lin Dan is better than the likes of Yang Yang and Han Jian, Frost did not think so, but with more time, a good player like Lin will be able to match the great badminton players of old. :D

What say you?

[other]

I thought Sony was "better" than LinDan where he made many self-errors and seemed hesitant..
For some reason, I felt the fundamental techniques for Sony is overall "better" than LinDan..I thought Sony just simply ran out of gas by the end of the 1st set..Hope Sony can get more playing time before the WC in August, to build up his stamina..

mm i just saw the wc03 quarter against WCH and sony did seem very hesitant in attacking. he is very fast and can produce wonderful angles on his smashes but he didn't actually try to smash that much. Maybe he needs more stamina? He just came back from injury right?

[cooler]

I agree too. LD is fast and agile. As for shot making varieties, not that much of that in his pocket. However, this again reinforces my point made many times before that speed and stamina are still the top skills to have first. LD's trophies are evidence to that.

[butterflyk]

There used to be a zillion chances in front of Frost to defeat the Chinese in the world championships and alike, and he failed to grab a single one of them; now he is talking about "the Chinese can be beaten".
Today's match between Kuncoro and Lin simply disappoints with underpar performance from both sides; therefore, I am not totally convinced whether one can gauge either player's caliber based on this game. Both of them are young and have tons of room for improvement; it is premature yet to predict their future sucess. Besides, comparing players of different eras is silly by itself.

[Qidong]

Sure it's much easier to talk than do it. If I have a spider's eyes (which can see things 8 times faster than human's eyes, a 200mph smash looks like a 25mph smash), I can probably be an A player already. Some reporters asked Zhao Jianhua about Bao and Lin Dan. He said Bao has better skill than Lin Dan. But Lin Dan has better killer instints. That alone will win matches for him. Sound like Kung Fu.

[New_Guy04]

i agree with cooler..

if u have the pace and speed to out-maneouver an opponent, ur smashes become twice sharper and ur shots become thrice deceiving, even if the shot quality is the same when u DONT put speed on the shuttle.

[badplayer2004]

Gulp! just noticed chinese badminton army juggernaut the last 3 days....

5/10 china-sweden 5-0
5/11 china-hongkong 5-0
5/12 china-indonesia 5-0

http://2005sc.163.com/special/s/00231F2C/sdmymqlive.html


france seems doing ok..maybe we get another badminton power in the future!! :rolleyes:

[badplayer2004]

sorry,if seem out of topic but was addressing the point of thread :)

[badplayer2004]

yes....as EVERYONE here KNOWS....lin dan has LOUSY techniques :)
no beauty nor grace.....especially compared to the danes...but the indonesian guys play like streetbasketball too :D

back to LD....but he shore is fast!!!!!

also endurance wise an edge

also master the BASICS is just enough?! :rolleyes:

i notice people tend to look down at his "elementary" techniques....but...he is after all.....still the Champeen!! :p

[Loh]

Frost did mention that fitness is paramount.

He used Lin Dan as an example to show that despite his superior speed, once his opponent is equally fit and can return his smashes, ie, having an excellent defense, Lin Dan will have to think of other ways to win points instead of just relying on his brute power.

An opponent who can anticipate Lin's moves and able to control him at the net to reduce his smashing chances, Lin will be frustrated and expose his own weakness. And as some have mentioned, some of Lin's other stroke departments have not been well honed yet to add another dimension to his game.

Perhaps that's why he lost to Ronald Susilo at the Athens Olympics and more recently to Chen Hong at the All-England. Remember he has lost to Bao Chunlai before. ;)

[New_Guy04]

He used Lin Dan as an example to show that despite his superior speed, once his opponent is equally fit and can return his smashes...


...Problem is, no one in the world is good enough to return his smashes with consistency...

[w3wmfhe]

i am agreed with most of the ppl ..lin dan is not better than previous legend like yang yang ..zhao jianhua...han jian...lin dan just ..maybe faster ..or smash harder than some of the player in the top form..

[Han]

Lin Dan is the exact duplicate of Peter Gade when Peter was at his prime at younger age. I recall Peter was undefeated for very long period of time before hit with injury? Two of them also have simliar style, speed and power. I think Lin Dan still will have 1 good year as this type of playing style most probably won't last that long before injury occur. In China, it's not how long you can play for national team, rather how many medals you can win for that short period of duration of his/her badminton career to determine greatness. Zhang Ning is the only exception.

[cooler]

Frost did mention that fitness is paramount.

He used Lin Dan as an example to show that despite his superior speed, once his opponent is equally fit and can return his smashes, ie, having an excellent defense, Lin Dan will have to think of other ways to win points instead of just relying on his brute power.

An opponent who can anticipate Lin's moves and able to control him at the net to reduce his smashing chances, Lin will be frustrated and expose his own weakness. And as some have mentioned, some of Lin's other stroke departments have not been well honed yet to add another dimension to his game.

Perhaps that's why he lost to Ronald Susilo at the Athens Olympics and more recently to Chen Hong at the All-England. Remember he has lost to Bao Chunlai before. ;)

when LD is winning mostly by speed and stamina since boyhood, his 'other' skills are secondary or not fully developed, not that he can't improve on them ;)

at athen, it was LD mental nerve caused the lost to ronald susilo. LD prolly dont have a plan readied for RS where as RD prolly studied LD quite well just before the olympic. When ur seeded low and likely face #1, #2, or #3 player at the first round, u better study them. I doubt RS can repeat a win against LD again;)

[ctjcad]

Yes, Sony just came back from a minor injury where he had to undergo a minor surgery on both his foot..Sony is not and has never been known as a "power" player, rather more of a "rally" type..Eventhough he doesn't have "fancy" strokes, his shots placements and overall fundamental skills are very good..Plus he is known as a very diligent and hard-working player, unlike Taufik..Taufik OTOH has all the "fancy" and "power" strokes to rely on, thus most people consider him as not as hard-working or diligent like Sony...Both have equal fundamental skills, but they differ in the "diligent" department..Another thing, in previous years, Sony tends to sometimes play WITHOUT thinking..
Don't know if he has improved or not..


mm i just saw the wc03 quarter against WCH and sony did seem very hesitant in attacking. he is very fast and can produce wonderful angles on his smashes but he didn't actually try to smash that much. Maybe he needs more stamina? He just came back from injury right?

[cooler]

Lin Dan is the exact duplicate of Peter Gade when Peter was at his prime at younger age. I recall Peter was undefeated for very long period of time before hit with injury? Two of them also have simliar style, speed and power. I think Lin Dan still will have 1 good year as this type of playing style most probably won't last that long before injury occur. In China, it's not how long you can play for national team, rather how many medals you can win for that short period of duration of his/her badminton career to determine greatness. Zhang Ning is the only exception.

fair assessment.
I think LD would peak longer than PG because LD is less heavier so injury would come later than PG :D I really like PG style, he is tall and can play the fast pace style like the chineses, and imo, has better strokes than LD at the moment.

[jug8man]

the idea is total match-tournament effectiveness.

there's very LITTLE value in beating the #1 player in the first few rounds when u are still fresh.

beating the best players in the semis and the finals counts the most. it shows that not only do you have the ability to beat top players but also the ability to win tournaments and titles.

this is LD's edge. the total package efficiency. this is the modern SPORT of today.... not the same GAME people used to play 20-30 years ago.


8man

[Loh]

at athen, it was LD mental nerve caused the lost to ronald susilo. LD prolly dont have a plan readied for RS where as RD prolly studied LD quite well just before the olympic. When ur seeded low and likely face #1, #2, or #3 player at the first round, u better study them. I doubt RS can repeat a win against LD again;)

Well, I'm not sure I agree with your prognosis. But it quite usual for a seemingly superior player to underestimate his lower ranked opponent, and in the Lin Dan-Ronald Susilo case, that has proven to be fatal!

What I see in that match was a more composed and determined RS who was able to deal with LD's smashes and speed with his better control and concentration. When LD didn't get things his way, he just went 'berserk', lost his head and composure and thereafter committed many unforced errors.

That same picture which saw RS defeating LD was replayed just recently, in the SC tie between Singapore and Japan. Many would agree that Shoji Sato, Japan's No.1, is no mean player but against RS that day, he was completely overshadowed by RS, who managed to take the sting out of his game with a very solid defense and left him helpless in more ways than one. Whilst Sato managed a very respectable 13-15 in the first game, he received only 4 points in the second.

Therefore I also doubted your last statement "I doubt RS can repeat a win against LD". Maybe somebody else can do the job for RS. :D

[cooler]

[QUOTE=cooler]

Therefore I also doubted your last statement "I doubt RS can repeat a win against LD". Maybe somebody else can do the job for RS. :D

Awhhh, too bad, i'm sure LD and LYB want to revenge :p

[jump_smash]

Ronald (Olympics) , Taufik (Indonesian Open) with wins and Peter (all England) just losing to him, have posed problems for Lin Dan when slowing the game down and keeping the lifts to short punches rather than the deep lifts, avoding giving Lin Dan the ammo for his attacking speed and power smashes.

Don't think Lin Dan will last that long as his game is bulit on using vast amounts of enegry and could be prone to injuries.

I think when 2008 Olympics come round it will be just Bao and Cheng left.

[Jofianty]

Taufiq has better techniques than lin dan
Bao has better techniques than lin dan
My question is What kind of factors that make lindan become a no 1 badminton player in the world..?

[Loh]

[QUOTE=Loh]

Awhhh, too bad, i'm sure LD and LYB want to revenge :p

I'm sure LD would want RS's scalp very badly because he was deprived of a chance to wear the biggest crown of all, the Olympics! And to be sitting at the sidelines so early in the competition to watch his other compatriots still vying for the crown is most embarrassing for the World No.1.

The most humiliating, not only for LD but more so for the haughty LYB, was to see the rest of his proteges slowly succumbed to their 'lower ranked' opponents. And the most shocking result was that Indonesia emerged with a gold and a bronze in the MS (Taufik and Sony) and nothing to giant China who recaptured the Thomas Cup only recently!

LYB can only take revenge with his disciples. He is no match for RS! :rolleyes:

[cooler]

[QUOTE=cooler]

I'm sure LD would want RS's scalp very badly because he was deprived of a chance to wear the biggest crown of all, the Olympics! And to be sitting at the sidelines so early in the competition to watch his other compatriots still vying for the crown is most embarrassing for the World No.1.

The most humiliating, not only for LD but more so for the haughty LYB, was to see the rest of his proteges slowly succumbed to their 'lower ranked' opponents. And the most shocking result was that Indonesia emerged with a gold and a bronze in the MS (Taufik and Sony) and nothing to giant China who recaptured the Thomas Cup only recently!

LYB can only take revenge with his disciples. He is no match for RS! :rolleyes:

I heard that on court performance drop once a guy start living together with his lady to improve his off court performance ;) :D :p :eek: :) :cool:

[New_Guy04]

Taufiq has better techniques than lin dan
Bao has better techniques than lin dan
My question is What kind of factors that make lindan become a no 1 badminton player in the world..?

from videos, i see him as

-much faster than most ppl from top 10 (with some exceptions like wch and leehyunil, not that they are faster, but they are equally fast),
-great power,
-deadly accurate (especially those frickin' smashes!)
-And getting to the birdy early (due to his great anticipation skills)

[seven]

france seems doing ok..maybe we get another badminton power in the future!! :rolleyes:

Yes, the french team in this Sudirman Cup is a young team and there are quite a few promising youngsters arriving behind them.
Badminton in France is growing year after year, there is still a long long way to go before France becomes a real badminton power however! ;)

[fanatico]

haha. i dont remember peter gade being a FAST and AGGRESSIVE player. he was FAST but i dont think he was one of the more powerful players. gade always struck me to have beautiful netplay and deceptive drops, not to mention his speed. but his smash has never been claimed to be very powerful

[fanatico]

lindan has that extra bit of aggression and hunger. he is one of the more determined players and he is confident, which is evident from occasional cockiness. but that is just what a top player requires. he is not the type of player which you see becoming lost when he loses a string of points.

taufik's techniques MAY be better, but taufik lacks the fitness and he is rather temperamental. taufik's talent is not a doubt but he is unable to take part in back-to-back competitions because of his fitness (compared to lindan who won 3 tournaments back-to-back), hence taufik is only able to win one competition in a while. though it still makes him a great player as he was able to peak and win the olympics.
btw, susilo's superior defence was also commented on by morten frost. but i am afraid that a repeat of their olympic first round encounter would be an uphill task for susilo to conquer lindan again.

[Morten]

hehe you must have been sleeping ;) . During 1997-2001 before his injury Gade was by many considered superior in almost every aspect, pace, technique, power, net play only lacking the mental area which in my opinion also costed him the WC in 2001 and the olympics in sydney. take a look at the match between him and Ji Xinpeng for example, not that Ji didnt deserve his gold medal, but in the second set you could really see the difference between the best players around and a Gade who played without nerves.

[Loh]

hehe you must have been sleeping ;) . During 1997-2001 before his injury Gade was by many considered superior in almost every aspect, pace, technique, power, net play only lacking the mental area which in my opinion also costed him the WC in 2001 and the olympics in sydney. take a look at the match between him and Ji Xinpeng for example, not that Ji didnt deserve his gold medal, but in the second set you could really see the difference between the best players around and a Gade who played without nerves.

Yes, I've seen Peter Gade play in Singapore when he was much younger and he was a joy to watch - an embodiment of youthful exuberance, speed and power. I would rate Peter better than Lin Dan because he was then more skilful and displayed a better arsenal of strokes. Of course he was, and still is, rather handsome also. :cool:

Before the last Olympics, almost everyone didn't give the slightest chance to Ronald Susilo to beat Lin Dan. Not even the newly imported Chinese coach I spoke to and who can blame him? Lin was then the World No.1 as he is now.
But events turned out otherwise. As we all know, Lin Dan was subsequently beaten by Ronald in Round 1 and never advanced any further and I just can't understand why many still believed that it was a fluke and a repeat can't happen! Some people refuse to believe that 'miracles' can happen, but beating Lin is no miracle. Lin is just another player and not omnipotent! :rolleyes:

[kwun]

CCTV re-broadcasted the last game between LeeHI and Gade just now. Gade was playing really sharp in that game. it will be an interesting match if he were to play Lin Dan in the finals. he still isn't as fast as he was before his injury though.

[takuan]

yup LD is fast player but i'm not believe fast-player will 'stand' longer
as we can see Joko playing more than 30 and no fast-player can playing well after 28, as i remember ;)

[jhl]

hehe you must have been sleeping ;) . During 1997-2001 before his injury Gade was by many considered superior in almost every aspect, pace, technique, power, net play only lacking the mental area which in my opinion also costed him the WC in 2001 and the olympics in sydney. take a look at the match between him and Ji Xinpeng for example, not that Ji didnt deserve his gold medal, but in the second set you could really see the difference between the best players around and a Gade who played without nerves.

Would be interesing to know who were the "many" who considered Gade to be superior in almost every aspects.

With respect and IMHO, it is a clear thing between Gade in his prime and Lin in his best form so far, on their "best day and with their A games, Gade will not be able to live with Lin Dan.

Olympics? Try having 1.3 billion people expecting you to bring home the gold. That was a fluke and I will be very happy to be proven wrong if Susilo ever beat LD again.

I will start the ball rolling
-LD has a better badminton brain
-LD has a better forehand

[Qidong]

I'm one of the "many" who think Peter Gade may be better in every categories except the mental area as Morten said. But I also think today's Lin Dan can beat Peter Gade at him prime 6 out of 10 times. Against a player playing good defense, Peter very often lost his patience, going too close to the line and hitting the bird out. I can see he did that very often against Sun Jun. Other than his speed, I think another Lin Dan's strength is his defense. One example is his match against Lee Hyun Ii in TC last year. He saved so many tough shots that really frustrated Lee and ended up winning the 2nd game easily after a very tough first game. Against Ronald Susilo is a different story. This guy almost smash every time. If he is having a good day getting most of his smashes in, I think he can beat any player in the world.

[badplayer2004]

what amaze me about lindan is him recovering some of the really fast smashes with his whole body and then jump again quickly for the next hit...never saw that in any other players...

most players catch smash with reflex flicks at full straight standing position at smashes near their body.....but he literally DIVES IN to catch the fast and faraway smashes

some of the indonesian MD's do it also but i dont think they can get the next shot....their partner will be there to help them unlike in MS

[badplayer2004]

in the MS standard's these days...peter dont have enough mental and physical endurance of the others who can that last till the end of matches....he is quite talented but not enough....he only perform his best at the first game only..then it deteriorates.....mentally or physically

[badplayer2004]

post tournament....this thread's title is sorta funny....:p

[newplayer]

post tournament....this thread's title is sorta funny....:p

why? Of course the Chinese could be beaten, they are just human after all. No one
is invincible.

newplayer

[badplayer2004]

why? Of course the Chinese could be beaten, they are just human after all. No one
is invincible.

newplayer

at least for this tournament.....:)

[newplayer]

at least for this tournament.....:)

yet, we are still adding more posts to this thread. ;)

[cooler]

missed this thread completely.

in case of maybe repeating someone else comment, i think morten frost comment is a bit off track. When he was head coach for the MAL team, did MAL squad beat any top chinese players :confused: :rolleyes:

[cooler]

missed this thread completely.

in case of maybe repeating someone else comment, i think morten frost comment is a bit off track. When he was head coach for the MAL team, did MAL squad beat any top chinese players :confused: :rolleyes:

just re-read this thread, i didnt missed this thread at all.
i didnt knew i was posting so many :D

[asuncion_03]

i agree.. China will not always dominate the badminton world...