Indo mixed double

[ye333]

I have always been wondering why there are no great
XD pairs from Indo in the last 20 years (don't know anything
about earlier years). They have fantastic MD all the time,
and their WD were OK in the 90s.

Another thing is that seems very few Indo MD player plays
XD seriously. Is it because style or something? Nova's technique
seems way cruder than Candra/Sigit/Gunawan/Halim etc.
It really seems to me that if pairing up Candra and Lilyana,
Indo would have a better XD pair than the current one.

Compare to Korea. They also have great MD players, and
their MD players are quite successful in XD.

[cheongsa]

I have always been wondering why there are no great
XD pairs from Indo in the last 20 years (don't know anything
about earlier years). They have fantastic MD all the time,
and their WD were OK in the 90s.

Another thing is that seems very few Indo MD player plays
XD seriously. Is it because style or something? Nova's technique
seems way cruder than Candra/Sigit/Gunawan/Halim etc.
It really seems to me that if pairing up Candra and Lilyana,
Indo would have a better XD pair than the current one.

Compare to Korea. They also have great MD players, and
their MD players are quite successful in XD.

At the 2000 Olympic Games, Timur and Trikus were seeded first. Though I have not been following their exploits before that, they must have been really good to earn that seeding.

[ye333]

Well, although they are seeded No.1, according to some games (not
the Olympic one) I saw, they are no where near the level of Kim/Ra.
furthermore, part of my question is that why the best Indo MD players
are not in the XD circuit...

At the 2000 Olympic Games, Timur and Trikus were seeded first. Though I have not been following their exploits before that, they must have been really good to earn that seeding.

[wilfredlgf]

I believe that should end now with Widianto Nova/Lilyana Nasir whom I think has a great potential to lift Indonesian XD to higher levels, challenging the powerhouses of Korea, China and Denmark.

I'm not making this assumption based on the WC2005 win alone - I have seen them playing in a few recent matches except the most and I must say they are the most balanced XD pair I have seen in recent years, even more balanced I dare say against the legendary Kim/Ra.

They no longer stick strictly to the stereotype of 'woman front, guy back' in XD but are rather equal in both positions - Nasir is no lady who is scared of giving a good smash and dead precise drops from the back, while Nova is just as good at the net as his partner is.

I have high hopes for these two and they are still young, so much potential.
I erm.. hope. :)

[udin_udik]

Well, although they are seeded No.1, according to some games (not
the Olympic one) I saw, they are no where near the level of Kim/Ra.
furthermore, part of my question is that why the best Indo MD players
are not in the XD circuit...

i think Trikus/Timur are quite good pair.....
and i read in indo newspaper...after Nova/Natsir won the WC...that indo has won XD WC before in arround 70's......
the reason why the MD player dont play in XD becuase MD is the priority...unless they dont do well in MD...then they'll play XD......

[ye333]

Well there are quite a few "balanced" pairs nowadays, e.g.,
Nova/Lilyana, Sudket/Saralee from thailand, Laybourn/Juhl
from Denmark. Also, in the late 80s, ?/Verawati often take
a guy-front/girl-back formation. However, the reason, it
seems to me, is that the guys are not as good as KDM,
Thomas Lund or PJB in controlling the game and creating
chances for the girl at net. (In the latter cases, Verawati
and Juhl are very tall and powerful, so their smashes can
really kill).

Also, if you watch Kim/Ra game, you will see that Ra does not
really STAY at the net. They rotate quite frequently. I think
the only pair that stick to the traditional formation is Zhang/Gao,
sometimes they would even switch position after Zhang Jun put
a net drop, i.e., Gao Ling rush forward and Zhang Jun rush backward.

Anyway, I still think the games of Kim/Ra and Park/Chung are the
ones that XD should be played like. :-)


I believe that should end now with Widianto Nova/Lilyana Nasir whom I think has a great potential to lift Indonesian XD to higher levels, challenging the powerhouses of Korea, China and Denmark.

I'm not making this assumption based on the WC2005 win alone - I have seen them playing in a few recent matches except the most and I must say they are the most balanced XD pair I have seen in recent years, even more balanced I dare say against the legendary Kim/Ra.

They no longer stick strictly to the stereotype of 'woman front, guy back' in XD but are rather equal in both positions - Nasir is no lady who is scared of giving a good smash and dead precise drops from the back, while Nova is just as good at the net as his partner is.

I have high hopes for these two and they are still young, so much potential.
I erm.. hope. :)

[ye333]

It seems the best MD players in all other countries do
XD... China maybe another exception, but Chinese MD
are not very good anyway.

i think Trikus/Timur are quite good pair.....
and i read in indo newspaper...after Nova/Natsir won the WC...that indo has won XD WC before in arround 70's......
the reason why the MD player dont play in XD becuase MD is the priority...unless they dont do well in MD...then they'll play XD......

[badMania]

I believe that should end now with Widianto Nova/Lilyana Nasir whom I think has a great potential to lift Indonesian XD to higher levels, challenging the powerhouses of Korea, China and Denmark.

I have high hopes for these two and they are still young, so much potential.
I erm.. hope. :)

Hmm...Nova is already pretty old (28 this year), while Butet is indeed a very promising player. However, despite their no 1 rank, they only managed to win 1 title this year (World Championships). I hope they can win the Indonesia Open and perhaps 1-2 more titles this year.

The top 5-6 pairs in XD are definitely equal in terms of skill. They have beaten each other in recent tournaments and it will be hard to say who is the best. I used to think Zhang Jun/Gao Ling are the most balanced pair, but, their performances in recent months are not that convincing.

In terms of prospect, I would say that Lee Jae Jin/Lee Hyo Jung (22/24) is the most promising pair because of their younger age and the fact that both are also accomplished players in MD and WD. They are paired up in less than 1 year and yet they already won 4 titles this year (Korean Open, Malaysia Open, German Open, and Thailand Open). Sudket/Saralee is also showing an improvement this year with victories at the Asian Championships and Japan Open.

[cheongsa]

Well, although they are seeded No.1, according to some games (not
the Olympic one) I saw, they are no where near the level of Kim/Ra.
furthermore, part of my question is that why the best Indo MD players
are not in the XD circuit...

A quick reason may be that you need two to tango... the Indonesian women doubles players will need to raise their general level, before it is profitable to match them up with the men's doubles player.

Another, and perhaps more important to the coaching staff, is that playing in two disciplines will affect the players' chance of going deep in either discipline.

I think we all saw Lee Jae Jin overstretched during WC 05 playing both. Kim Dong Moon is different, since he is already one class above in MD. In fact, I have never seen him tired on court. Ha Tae Kwon, yes, but never Kim Dong Moon.

[event]

Compare to Korea. They also have great MD players, and
their MD players are quite successful in XD.

Only a few Korean MD players have really done anything in XD to speak of. Ha Tae-kwon was paired with the Ra Kyung-min's partner, Lee Kyung-won, several times but didn't do anything spectacular. Similarly, does anyone remember any XD results being posted by Lee Dong-soo, Kim Moon-soo, Yoo Yong-sung, or Jung Jae-sung? All top MD players. And this is in Korea where you have proven women's players.

I think Cheongsa might have it with the point about the quality of the Indonesian women's doubles players. Remember that Nova was in a solid 2nd-tier pair when he was playing with Vita Marissa. He's been a contender ever since Lilyana came along. It wasn't just Kim/Ra that he and Vita couldn't beat. There were several top pairs that they couldn't get past.

I agree that Kim and Park seemed to be a whole different level. They proved they could win with several different partners. With everyone else, it seems that chemistry is extremely important. In Korea, they have lots of strong women to choose from so the chances of finding a pair that clicks is high. Indonesia's case is not that different from Malaysia's. In Malaysia, you are just starting to see some women breaking into the second tier in doubles and the mixed doubles are looking a little more promising, even with their top MD players not participating.

The interesting thing about Nova is that I don't remember him ever playing MD. That wasn't true of Trikus. His pairing with Sigit prior to Athens was only the most recent.

[Brave_Turtle]

Widianto is just nowhere near Candra or Sigit.

Natsir needs a better partner

[xofrevlis]

Widianto is just nowhere near Candra or Sigit.

Natsir needs a better partner

Widianto actually has exceptional racket skills that I'd put above Wijaya or Budiarto. But he does lose out by some way to them in terms of the more physical capabilities like speed, power, etc.
Still, players have proven that technique can prevail over power-play in doubles, otherwise Fu/Cai and Zhang/Gao would be winning everything in their respective disciplines.

Overall, Widianto may not be as good as Chandra or Sigit, but I think it's a fantastic balance with Natsir. I'd like to see them stick together for a few more years. If they got a power-player to replace Widianto anytime soon, I fear they will become like Fu/Cai where they play so fast that they often get ahead of themselves and become inconsistent from match to match.

An under-powered KDM is the best analogy I can come up with right now. :D

[protomedea]

That's a rather harsh comment. What is your definition of a 'better' partner for Natsir?

Widianto is just nowhere near Candra or Sigit.

Natsir needs a better partner

[ye333]

But Korean top MD players all tried in XD. And this continues to be the case, since Lee Jae Jin seems serious in XD. Due to the difference between the two, of course some of them would prove to be not fit in XD. For example, I believe Sigit would totally fail if he tries XD. But the question is strategy and placement players like tony gunawan also never touched XD (b4 he came to US). Any one disagree that Natsir/Gunawan would beat Natsir/Widiato?

Also, I think you don't need a good women squad to obtain good XD pairs. For example, Indo WD now is much worse than their WD in the 90s (e.g. Eliza/Zelin can sometimes win one game from the formidable Ge/Gu, can you imagine any Indo WD pair getting more than 5 pts from Gao/Huang or Zhang/Yang now? ), but Lilyana is for sure a better XD player than either Timur or Vita.


Only a few Korean MD players have really done anything in XD to speak of. Ha Tae-kwon was paired with the Ra Kyung-min's partner, Lee Kyung-won, several times but didn't do anything spectacular. Similarly, does anyone remember any XD results being posted by Lee Dong-soo, Kim Moon-soo, Yoo Yong-sung, or Jung Jae-sung? All top MD players. And this is in Korea where you have proven women's players.

I think Cheongsa might have it with the point about the quality of the Indonesian women's doubles players. Remember that Nova was in a solid 2nd-tier pair when he was playing with Vita Marissa. He's been a contender ever since Lilyana came along. It wasn't just Kim/Ra that he and Vita couldn't beat. There were several top pairs that they couldn't get past.

I agree that Kim and Park seemed to be a whole different level. They proved they could win with several different partners. With everyone else, it seems that chemistry is extremely important. In Korea, they have lots of strong women to choose from so the chances of finding a pair that clicks is high. Indonesia's case is not that different from Malaysia's. In Malaysia, you are just starting to see some women breaking into the second tier in doubles and the mixed doubles are looking a little more promising, even with their top MD players not participating.

The interesting thing about Nova is that I don't remember him ever playing MD. That wasn't true of Trikus. His pairing with Sigit prior to Athens was only the most recent.

[ye333]

I think it sould be "Widiato is .... Sigit if he plays MD". :)

Tend to agree Natsir deserves a better partner. But currently few XD male players are actually better than Widiato. Maybe the only choice is Nathan Robertson? He deserves a better female partner anyway. :D


Widianto is just nowhere near Candra or Sigit.

Natsir needs a better partner

[udin_udik]

I think it sould be "Widiato is .... Sigit if he plays MD". :)

Tend to agree Natsir deserves a better partner. But currently few XD male players are actually better than Widiato. Maybe the only choice is Nathan Robertson? He deserves a better female partner anyway. :D

Maybe it's just because Natsir is too good so Widianto looks less good.....Natsir rocks !!!!

[Ningtyas]

I think very few Indonesian top players would like to play XD. It's either MD or MS. Indeed the mentality has to be changed. XD is somewhat "dipandang sebelah mata" (not taken seriously).

I remember reading in newspaper the event when Bambang Suprianto has decided to play XD. Bambang was a good MS player, but at that time we have a lot of good MS players. So Bambang decided to leave MS and play XD. Even his coach --or PBSI-- questioned his decision. "Do you really want to play XD?!"

Nova Widianto started his career as an MS player too. But he realized as a single player he would not go so far, so he switch to XD. And he does it well so far...

With this mentality, I think it's only a dream to see Lilyana pairing with Chandra or other top MD players. But who knows....

[event]

But Korean top MD players all tried in XD. And this continues to be the case, since Lee Jae Jin seems serious in XD. Due to the difference between the two, of course some of them would prove to be not fit in XD. For example, I believe Sigit would totally fail if he tries XD. But the question is strategy and placement players like tony gunawan also never touched XD (b4 he came to US). Any one disagree that Natsir/Gunawan would beat Natsir/Widiato?

Also, I think you don't need a good women squad to obtain good XD pairs. For example, Indo WD now is much worse than their WD in the 90s (e.g. Eliza/Zelin can sometimes win one game from the formidable Ge/Gu, can you imagine any Indo WD pair getting more than 5 pts from Gao/Huang or Zhang/Yang now? ), but Lilyana is for sure a better XD player than either Timur or Vita.

Okay, fair enough. Korea doesn't keep them separate as seems to happen in Indonesia. Ningtyas's account is very interesting.

I guess what I mean about the Korean women's squad is that you have a depth of talent there that doesn't seem to exist in Indonesia. Even if the women's doubles teams in England and Denmark don't compete well with the Asian pairs, they still have a lot of women being trained and put into mixed pairs to try to find a combination. Is Lilyana just a fluke? Was she groomed for mixed and never played singles or women's doubles? In Korea, some of those girls play everything when they are in high school and they try to find winning combinations using their strong women athletes. If mixed is an afterthought in Indonesia, as Ningtyas points out, then you're stuck trying to find suitable partners for guys like Bambang and Nova from the available women and if they haven't been cutting their teeth playing women's doubles or anything else at a high level, then it doesn't seem like you have much to work with. I must confess, though, that I don't know how it works there. Do people like Lilyana come up through the ranks as mixed specialists or are they relegated to mixed from something else?

[badMania]

Is Lilyana just a fluke? Was she groomed for mixed and never played singles or women's doubles? In Korea, some of those girls play everything when they are in high school and they try to find winning combinations using their strong women athletes.

Lilyana Natsir played in women's doubles for 1 year or so before turning to mixed doubles last year. This occured quite incidentally too because Nova's regular partner (Vita Marissa) had to undergo an operation and was away after the Olympic Games. That's why Nova was paired with Lilyana in the first tournament after the Olympics (China Open 2004). They were an instant hit, beating Zhang Jun/Gao Ling and reached the semi-final. Then, 1 month later, they won the 5* Aviva Singapore Open and was involved in another thriller with Zhang Jun/Gao Ling in the quarter-final of Indonesia Open 2005. That match was labelled as the actual final.

Subsequently, they were pretty consistent and reached at least quarter-final of every tournament they competed in. They nearly reached the final of All England, only suprisingly lost to the Danes. They finally attained the top ranking after becoming the new world champions, in less than 1 year after they were paired. Of course, one can argue that they were pretty lucky in the WC not to encounter Zhang Jun/Gao Ling, Chen Qiqiu/Zhao Tingting, or Lee Jae Jin/Lee Hyo Jung (all of whom had better head-to-heads against them). They managed to beat Sudket/Saralee and the younger Chinese pair of Xie Zhongbo/Zhang Yawen after 3 tough sets.

I personally think that this pair is still not a great pair, with Nova as the weak link. Lilyana is agressive and has good future, but, to be labelled as a great mixed double pair, she really needs a better (and younger) partner. I can't think of any suitable names at the moment....perhaps Markis Kido or Alven Yulianto?

[Ningtyas]

I personally think that this pair is still not a great pair, with Nova as the weak link. Lilyana is agressive and has good future, but, to be labelled as a great mixed double pair, she really needs a better (and younger) partner. I can't think of any suitable names at the moment....perhaps Markis Kido or Alven Yulianto?

Then again, perhaps Markis Kido or Alven Yulianto would not like to play XD. After Bambang Suprianto and Trikus Haryanto, I do not see any other top MD players who also would like to play XD.

Butet's future partner may come from another young XD pairs or young MD pairs (not the top ones). And I guess Butet (Lilyana Natsir) will still be pairing with Nova for at least 1-2 years. Maybe Nova/Butet is not that great, but thats the best XD pair we have now. I don't think the PBSI will rush to separate them to form another pairs which may turn out worse then Nova/Butet.

I watch the WC final on TV with Hendrawan as the commentator. He said that Nova is a kind of player who sometimes "tidak tahu harus bagaimana" (don't know what to do) in the court. So he needs a partner who can 'guide' him. Unfortunately, Butet is also a silent player who does not talk much during the game.
According to Hendrawan whenever Nova plays "sambil berteriak setiap melakukan pukulan" (he shout out in his each stroke), that's a good news. That is a sign that he's already "bermain lepas", he plays with confidence and plays his best. LOL!

I can't wait to see them play on IO. Hopefully they will meet Sudket/Saralee, in a thriller game, and win!

[badMania]

I watch the WC final on TV with Hendrawan as the commentator. He said that Nova is a kind of player who sometimes "tidak tahu harus bagaimana" (don't know what to do) in the court. So he needs a partner who can 'guide' him. Unfortunately, Butet is also a silent player who does not talk much during the game.

According to Hendrawan whenever Nova plays "sambil berteriak setiap melakukan pukulan" (he shout out in his each stroke), that's a good news. That is a sign that he's already "bermain lepas", he plays with confidence and plays his best. LOL!

Hmmm..very good observations from the maestro. Somehow, Nova can lose his concentration pretty easily (esp when they are leading a lot). The All England semi-final is a good example. I thought they would have wrapped up the match easily once they had a good start. Yet, they allow the Danish pair to calm down and gain their composure. Once the Danes started to get their rythm going, Nova/Butet couldnt fight back and lost in 2 straight sets. What a waste....

The second game in the WC semi-final is also frustrating to watch....it took Nova/Butet 5 mins to get 12 points...yet, once Sudket/Saralee concentrate on their task, the 3 points required became a 15-20 mins struggle....

[badMania]

Butet's future partner may come from another young XD pairs or young MD pairs (not the top ones). And I guess Butet (Lilyana Natsir) will still be pairing with Nova for at least 1-2 years. Maybe Nova/Butet is not that great, but thats the best XD pair we have now. I don't think the PBSI will rush to separate them to form another pairs which may turn out worse then Nova/Butet.

I agree that they are currently the best pair we have in Pelatnas. I thought Anggun Nugroho/Tetty Yunita is another prospect with good performances up to the All England, when they reached quarter-final and lost to the eventual champion. However, their subsequent performances at Japan, Singapore, and Malaysia were atrocious....failing to win even 1 match. Thats the reason why they were not sent to the WC, even though their current rank is still within the top 20.

Another two pairs are Mohd Rizal/Endang Nur Sugianti and Devin Lahardi/Vita Marissa. Both are relatively new pairings, but Rizal/Endang have had good showings at Taiwan and Hyderabad where they reached the final and semi-final respectively. Devin/Vita is in their 4th competition together in the Indonesia Open and their best showing is a quarter-final place at Hyderabad, losing to Sudket/Saralee.

I hope that Anggun/Tetty can at least get a quarter-final place (they are also seeded 8th) while Rizal/Endang and Devin/Vita are expected to meet Carsten Mogensen/Mette Schjoldager and Sudket/Saralee in Round 1/16. Tough matches...but I hope to see suprises for Rizal/Endang.

[ye333]

I watch the WC final on TV with Hendrawan as the commentator. He said that Nova is a kind of player who sometimes "tidak tahu harus bagaimana" (don't know what to do) in the court. So he needs a partner who can 'guide' him. Unfortunately, Butet is also a silent player who does not talk much during the game.
According to Hendrawan whenever Nova plays "sambil berteriak setiap melakukan pukulan" (he shout out in his each stroke), that's a good news. That is a sign that he's already "bermain lepas", he plays with confidence and plays his best. LOL!


Wow Hendrawan seems to be a great commentator! Pity I won't understand anything he says. I don't know the culture but, would Nova be mad at him for saying this?

Nova does seem lost on court quite often. Actually in every match I saw there are moments he make reluctant and loose shots, which results in easy kills for his opponents.

[Ningtyas]

Wow Hendrawan seems to be a great commentator! Pity I won't understand anything he says. I don't know the culture but, would Nova be mad at him for saying this?

Nova does seem lost on court quite often. Actually in every match I saw there are moments he make reluctant and loose shots, which results in easy kills for his opponents.

No, I don't think Nova would mad at Hendrawan's comment. Both are on Pelatnas remember, Hendrawan is our WS's coach. Players shortcomings on court are subject to evaluation and criticism. Nothing personal, I think.
Hendrawan also mentioned some good things about Nova's play, I just did not remember what he said about that!

[Ningtyas]

An insight comment comes from Ricky Subagja, when he helped the SCTV as a guess commentator during the all-Indonesian XD final match in 2005 Indonesia Open yesterday.
Ricky said that in the past in Pelatnas the mixed double is regarded as "tempatnya pemain buangan," which means only players that no longer good enough for MD or WD that become XD pairs.
Only after the existence of a new tournament namely the Sudirman Cup they *realized* that the mixed double is just as important and so they put effort to it seriously...

[SpursIndonesia]

An insight comment comes from Ricky Subagja, when he helped the SCTV as a guess commentator during the all-Indonesian XD final match in 2005 Indonesia Open yesterday.
Ricky said that in the past in Pelatnas the mixed double is regarded as "tempatnya pemain buangan," which means only players that no longer good enough for MD or WD that become XD pairs.
Only after the existence of a new tournament namely the Sudirman Cup they *realized* that the mixed double is just as important and so they put effort to it seriously...

And also the fact that the value of an Olympic gold medal from XD is the same with ones coming from other :D, ...you know, i am still hurting on Trikus/Minarti loss at Sydney 2000, after winning the 1st set, and leading by a lot in the 3rd ....:(

At that time, Trikus was in his peak performance, but Minarti was on his twilight yrs, just can't keep up with the younger XD from China in the 3rd set.