Acceptable synthetic shuttles?

[Dimo]

I feel that badminton would benefit from employing a standard type of synthetic shuttle that everyone is (relatively) content with. I wonder if this is possible? Most other sports don't have to rely on "consumables" during play.

Also, the variation in shuttle type, speed, storage and the range of temperatures in halls (some warm, some nearly freezing) means you never quite know what to expect when you begin warming up. I have played matches in a cold hall with poor shuttles, making clears under pressure a problem. Other times I turn up and the hall is warm and the shuttles are really flying! OK so if you're lucky you may have a choice of speeds, and you can also tip them, but if badminton is to move forward wouldn't a more permanent, durable shuttle be a good idea?

[Christian]

Excuse the head-line, but I still have not seen any acceptable synthetic shuttle..

and in my club, weI've tried everything that we have been able to locate on the Danish market.. we even tried importing some samples.. because it seemed we could save quite a bit of money...

At the end of the day - the synthetic shuttles just were not good enough... and some of them were even more expensive in use than the inexpensive "birdie" which we currently use for some of the teams.. .

So now were using synthetic shuttles for "beginner kids"... There it seemed to be both the most cost efficient thing to do and it did not seem to affect the game...

Everybody else plays with nature's own materials...

[cooler]

i think there are more shuttle variation of the feather kind

[badrad]

Remember when Prince tried to make the adjustable, repairable feather shuttle? It used a plastic cage, and the cork was designed that feathers can be individually removed and replaced. There was also a method to twist the cage making the shuttle faster or slower for the gym tempurature. Each tube of shuttles included a dozen or more replacement feathers, and each shuttle required a plastic tab to be inserted near the head in order to lock the cage to prevent changing of speed.

This shuttle cost twice the normal price of a premium grade shuttle. Feathers still broke, the cage was susceptible to damage, replacing feathers often made the shuttle unstable, since the other feathers were worn evenly. The locking pin sometimes flew out when the shuttle was smashed hard.

It sounded like a great idea at the time. It wound up being not much more durable than a standard feather, hassle of replacing feathers, and the cost were the primary reasons for killing this product.

[cooler]

I find the opposite results. I use yonex mavis 300 and 350 exclusively which i guess majority nylon players use also. Since they are injection molded, i find each nylon shuttle very consistent right of the tube which I can't say that to feather shuttles. Each feather shuttle (FS) is hand made from geese/duck. Considering the number of different farms, breed of geese and ducks, and manual laborers, i can safely say no two FS are identical. I also find nylon shuttle degrade slower than FS and therefore i can get more consistent shots per game than a fast degrading FS. Sure, if i can get free unlimited FS between rallies like the pros, FS playing can be very consistent between rallies too. Let say i hit more tape and lines with nylon than FS. That's my plug on nylon shuttle. Sure, FS has its advantage but in term consistency, i find nylon has an edge over FS in this regard.

[Winex West Can]

There is always going to be slight differences between feathers in a tube (since the feathers would have come from different birds).

Even though plastics are more consistent (i.e. the manufacturing process for a single batch do tend to produce more similar shuttles), there are a lot of things that you can't do with plastics (e.g. spin/tumble the shuttle) and you also have the problem with the nylon skirt collapsing in mid flight resulting in a faster flight or unpredictable flight.

I personally prefer feather as I find them to be more "true" given the right speed for the current environment. Until the IBF mandate plastics as the standard for all tournaments, you are going to have feathers as THE preferred choice.

[Mag]

I agree. It just amazes me that we're past the year 2000 and we haven't been able to invent an acceptable synthetic badminton shuttle...

[Dimo]

Yes, I completely agree with feathers being the preferred choice. I personally don'y like nylon shuttles at all.

Maybe the IBF should commission NASA with the task of developiong something 'space age' - except the price would be astronomical. Ha ha!

[Christian]

I see your point, but there are still several performance issues.

One example is that I still have not found a synthetic shuttle which reacts "correctly" when I "cut" the shuttle on the "feather" (for instance in a drop from the baseline or at the net).

It is impossible for the strings to get the right "resistance" from the synthetic material in the short interval where the two touch.

[badrad]

There is another alternative and that is for the IBF to create a spin-off of rules specifically for nylon shuttles. This is similar to different sports (ie. short-track vs long track skating, beach volleyball vs indoor volleyball, etc). Disciplines are different for nylon versus feather, there are limits to what nylon can currently perform, but games are still competitive regardless. No matter how close nylon could get to feather shuttles, they will constantly be compared, so why not create a spinoff group for nylon competition.

[cooler]

bottomline, feather and nylon shuttles (NS) each have their own playing characteristic, it is not being one better than the other, each have their strengths and weaknesses. People keep comparing NS to FS because the game of badminton was originated using FS so the FS has its root and history. As in life, things that are expensive generally feel better, don't you agree? :P

I think the NS can be made better but i think yonex, hiqua, victor, carlton, etc purposely kept the NS subpar so to maintain strong FS demand, where more $ can be made.

[Brett]

The differences between nylon and feather shuttles are not that great that it fundamentally alters the game and therefore creates a "new" sport. You don't have two ski events on an identical course, one with skis below 150cm in length, the other for skis longer than 150cm, so why should there be separate events for nylon and for feather shuttle badminton? The ski analogy is closer than the speed skating (very different strategies and styles of skating on different length tracks) or volleyball (two players vs. six) analogies.

[Mag]

In essence an evil badminton cartel? What a compelling thought!

I am afraid the truth is less exciting though. I think it doesn't exist because it simply can't be done (yet anyway)...

[UkPlayer]

That makes more sense. If it could be done and the big companies weren't doing it then I'm sure a smaller companny would have moved in and claimed the territory. But I'm still surprised there isn't a decent long lasting shuttle in this day and age. Whether nylon, feather or titanium, I don't care, but badminton is far too expensive if you want to train properly.

[badrad]

Titanium shuttles? Hmmmm... Long lasting, and deadly!

But I think a conspiracy theory is not too far fetched. I seem to remember a Carlton invention for a nylon shuttle that had a small air sac inserted in the cage. Apparently (never actually saw or played with it) the air sac gave the nylon shuttle durability and was almost identical to a feather shuttle, with less cost to manufacture. This was patented by Carlton, but never saw this in production.

[cooler]

yeah, my last statement regarding FS market is just a postulation but I do think in past, only a few companies were selling FS and they do have more influence on prices. Nowadays, a lot more brands and sellers are available and price fixing is less obvious. In real $ term, FS cost less now than before.

[cooler]

yes, i had read and was waiting for that NS to show up too but somehow it got stopped cold. The review was pretty good too.

[shuttlejunkie]

I think there are fundamental problems with synthetic shuttles that cannot be overcome. Principally rigidity. As soon as it is struck the thing deforms and takes all the"snap" out of the shot. Also the tragectory is totally different. My club has a junior section and we would not let them use synthetic. OK they're lucky because out of the several hundred dozen shuttles per season the senior club gets through we have enough decent used feathers for them to practice with. They would have to learn different hitting techniques. It is not easy to play proper wrist shots with synthetics. If you assume the juniors progress to a certain level you have to teach technique all over again when they start playing tournaments with feathers. Apart from that feathers are such great looking objects it sometines seem a shame to hit and damage them!

[badrad]

A brand new feather shuttle out of a brand new tube is quite beautiful. The sharp edges, the whiteness of the feathers, the smell of the cork and leather. The sound it makes coming off a tight strings. Then the inevitable happens... Oh, well there's another 11 of them in the tube.

[trapped-never]

I believe that synthetic shuttle with better characteristics can be developed and produced. The key might be to use two different materials in the shuttle skirt. Now I will start to move on thin ice but anyway: how about 12 light and flexible metalic stripes embedded in nylon in positions of quills?

I think that IBF should offer a grant for development of cheap and more feather like synthetic shuttle. I am positive that good solution would help badminton to grow globaly.

[Smitten]

Have you tried the Gosen Gold S-200 shuttlecoks? Undoubtebly the best shuttlecoks I've played with for precision, flying course, distance, etc
Give 'em a try, bet you'll stick with them for life once you have!

[cooler]

MUMBAI, NOV 16, 2006 (PTI)

The game of badminton is following the footsteps of other sports and trying to convert bird feather-made shuttles into synthetic ones, according to the Olympic sport's world body's top official Punch Gunalan.

Malaysian Gunalan, one of the foremost players of his time who is the deputy president of the Badminton World Federation (formerly International Badminton Federation), said that research is on to find the right synthetic material for making shuttles.

"Badminton is the only sport which requires a live creature for its equipment and the demand is more than the supply. Therefore we are in the process of developing a synthetic shuttle which will behave like the normal bird," he said.

Gunalan, who is here to watch the ongoing Indian International Badminton Tournament, said further, "Two of our scientists are doing research on developing this synthetic shuttle cock. The people from Yonex (leading badminton equipment suppliers) are also on the same job."

Gunalan said that the change from 15 to 21 points was done to make the games shorter and more interesting for the TV viewers.

"We had been losing out on TV viewer-ship due to the long drawn-out matches. Since we had changed the scoring pattern to 21 we have had fantastic response from television companies and viewers," he explained.

"Due to this change we have also earned a lot of money which we can put back into the game,' he added.
------------------------
nice to know the scientists are working hard on this product

[hiroisuke]

Can't they make synthetic fibers to replicate the feathers? It'd be great if they could, I love feathers, but I dislike the feather plucking thingy, not to mention that it'd probably be more economical this way.

[silentheart]

After I saw international game and how Sir DinksALot play, I would like to offer few of my opinions.

1) This thread has focus on the feather and its durability. The main issue is the feather shaft durability here.
2) Why is the shaft fragile? My answer is the shaft is actually very string. The main issue here is the shaft break after miss hit. From my observation in our club, if there is no miss hit, a good feather shuttle (Victor Champ#1 or YY AS40) actually survive an entire game with no damage to the shaft.
3) For international player or Sir Dinks, their string tension is so high and they are hitting so hard that no feather shuttle will last over 6 point w/o miss hitting anyway.
4) Another factor we need to think about is the head of shuttle. It is made out of cork. The cork will get soft after a good game of smashing. Try a used perfectly good shuttle and a new shuttle out of the tube, you will see the difference. Check out the WC video, many time they replace a perfectly good shuttle because the cork is soft already.
5) Why we need to have synth shuttle? Will it be better than the current YY AS50? Depend on what your def of better is. It will be more durable for sure. It will fly more consistant without testing from batch to batch. But it will not be more consistant than any tub of AS50. Will it have better fly path? No, AS50 has perfect flying path already, nothing can be better than perfect. Will it be cheaper, it has to be or no one will buy it.
6) The biggest factor of synth feather shuttle is price. If I can mass produce the feather shuttle and reduce the cost of shuttle to $0.25 per shuttle, will we still have this discussion? No!

Badminton is an expensive sport for many people and I totally agree. It is more expensive than tennis. It is more expensive than pingpong. It is more expensive than racquet ball. But I love this game and I am welling to go out to dinner 1 time less for a good tub of shuttle. I am welling to work second job so I can sub the s/h for my club to use feather shuttle. So, for love of the game, just keep using feather and let the engineer figure it out!!!

[twobeer]

Ok lets sum this up..

1) It would be really nice with a synthetic shuttle (less expensive than feather-shuttles) for the game..

2) Today there is no such thing as a good syntetic shuttle. Market leader Yonex plastic shuttles for example (Mavis370/350) are a joke and plays like s-t..

3) In utopia ther would be a cheap syntetic shuttle with proper trajectory, and non "foldable" shirt.

4) Trying to promote syntetics by "forcing" them onto badminton-players spoiled with using the feather shuttles with steep trajectory and different weight distribution, is a stupid idea!!!

5) First show us a good syntetic shuttle, then, and not before then we talk about replacing feathers.. right?!? :)

Another thing..

Cooler mentioned that he felt syntetics are more consistent than feathers. My experience is completely opposite.. dependent on temperature, storage, batch and production date (even difference between the batches of yellow or white mavises!!) the speed of the plastics varies Extremely!!

They also only come in 3 speeds fast,medium or slow.. compared to feathers witch you can get in speeds varying from 73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80!!

Most good feathers are rigourously quality tested to have right speed and flight pattern, I dont thing the platcis shuttles are quality assuered at all.. just pressed and put into tubes!!

Cheers,
Twobeer

[hiroisuke]

Gotta get an engineer into this thread. It'd be great: Cheap, economical/ecological, consistent, superior, nylon birdies.

[NanoBatien]

Just wondering, if there is a slightly more flexible joining (where the feather joins the cork), will the feathers last longer on mis hits?

I really want to know why someone hasnt tried to make plastic feathers and use them.

Something interesting would be to get videos of matches (all levels) and see exactly how the feathers are breaking.

I believe that a mishit with the top of the racket hitting a vertically descending shuttle tends to kill the feather which the racket hit.
So if the feather shaft was more flexy, would that solve the problem? I know that if it is flexy, it will behave differently from a normal shuttle under that particular mishit condition, but who cares, its a mishit anyway.

[silentheart]

Yes, and no. Yes, the shuttle feather might last longer. However, the feeather will claps during the smash or clear. The shuttle will become a fly right out of court. Also, the shaft can not be too hard and have too much strength because if you miss hit the frame, the frame will break.

May be we have Bio engineer here who can GE a super bird that can produce 2X grade A feather than current mother goose?

[Pete LSD]

We need a scaffolding material for the shape of the feather. I wonder how GE can do that?


Yes, and no. Yes, the shuttle feather might last longer. However, the feeather will claps during the smash or clear. The shuttle will become a fly right out of court. Also, the shaft can not be too hard and have too much strength because if you miss hit the frame, the frame will break.

May be we have Bio engineer here who can GE a super bird that can produce 2X grade A feather than current mother goose?

[silentheart]

Gene engeneer those geese to produce more good feather at the same shape. More feather mean cheaper material cost. Same shape and quality means we can make it with machine and take labor issue out of eq. If we can buy grade A shuttle @ $5 or $6 a tube, many people will be happy too.

[Pete LSD]

I see! I was thinking of producing the feather from the test tube :p :D.

[silentheart]

how about find a goose with 4 wings. we can clone it and double the production!!!

[Dummey]

how about find a goose with 4 wings. we can clone it and double the production!!!

I really don't think all the work put into cloning and GE is productive in terms of money when US companies can mass "grow" geeses like they do with chickens and cows. It's probably just because the market is so small that it hasn't happened yet. Not to mention the labor cost.

[silentheart]

As I said before and I will say it again. I vote for shooting Canadian geese and use their feather to make shuttle...

[Pete LSD]

Ha ha ha, Steven has a very good idea :D. Serioiusly, if modified spider silk can be produced synthetically, why not feather.


As I said before and I will say it again. I vote for shooting Canadian geese and use their feather to make shuttle...

[morewood]

Im sure that given the right development budget an acceptable synthetic shuttle could be developed (not using nylon) but the cost would be huge and the commercial advantage would be short lived. Therefore most manufacturers will still strive for perfection using the available materials of goose feather or nylon.

[yy_ling]

synthetic shuttles are durable, they fly pretty well, but compared to using actual feather shuttles, feather shuttles are a lot more fun. Also you cant slice synthetic shuttles, becauses there are no feathers but a plastic skirt acting as wings.

[cooler]

LN is exploiting an old patent held by Prince which i think had expired or else LN wouldn't take on this remake. From the video, i see LN made some upgrade to the Prince's hybrid shuttlecock.

Chinese labor costs will not stop rising, badminton feather shuttles needed a new remake.
This is more environmental friendly since only bad feathers being replaced, not needing to discard the whole shuttlecock that still have some good feathers on them. I have not tried it yet but I think performance (feel and flight) of this hybrid shuttle should comes very close to the current feather shuttles. I think this time it wouldn't fade away since LN has the staying power than Prince.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://lining.sina.com.cn/badminton/huanyu/&rurl=translate.google.ca
(sounds better if u have a good subwoofer:p)

[silentheart]

LN is exploiting an old patent held by Prince which i think had expired or else LN wouldn't take on this remake. From the video, i see LN made some upgrade to the Prince's hybrid shuttlecock.

Chinese labor costs will not stop rising, badminton feather shuttles needed a new remake.
This is more environmental friendly since only bad feathers being replaced, not needing to discard the whole shuttlecock that still have some good feathers on them. I have not tried it yet but I think performance (feel and flight) of this hybrid shuttle should comes very close to the current feather shuttles. I think this time it wouldn't fade away since LN has the staying power than Prince.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://lining.sina.com.cn/badminton/huanyu/&rurl=translate.google.ca
(sounds better if u have a good subwoofer:p)
Yes, I remember this one from Victor. There are several problems and I would like to point out.
1) It is good for practice. Not very good for real game play. After a point, you break a feather, you stop between point and remove the feather and put a new on on. while the other 3 players take a tea break. Or you still have to buy 3 or 4 of these shuttles in case of feather break during the game.
2) If I remember it right, you are suppose to buy or use the special feather, not the one you recycle from your used bird. If that is the case, what is the price of the replacement feather? Is it suppose 1/17 of the original shuttle?
3) The weight distribution. Victor use plastic ring to hold the shuttles in place so it will not change the weight distribution. But the plastic ring crack easily. I assume LN use AL ring for durability. To keep the shuttle at 5g and compensate the heavier metal ring, the shuttle weight distribution will change and flight path is not going to be the same.
4) Unless you can get all the feather line up in the right angle, the speed will very from 1 to next. It also wobble if you don't have it right.

Again, for practice, you can recycle the used shuttles. May be it is good to have the beginner kids to replace the feather as home work for the coach for free. Other wise, why bother?

[visor]

Looks interesting. Surely a step in the right direction, in terms of reusing and recycling shuttles.

The ring looks plastic, not metal.

Hopefully, they have figured out how to orient the feathers properly so that flight remains consistent between feather changes.

Perhaps this 1st gen is good enough for practice, but I'm sure after a few gen of improvements, this will be used in tournaments and competitive play.

[cooler]

Yes, I remember this one from Victor. There are several problems and I would like to point out.
1) It is good for practice. Not very good for real game play. After a point, you break a feather, you stop between point and remove the feather and put a new on on. while the other 3 players take a tea break. Or you still have to buy 3 or 4 of these shuttles in case of feather break during the game.
2) If I remember it right, you are suppose to buy or use the special feather, not the one you recycle from your used bird. If that is the case, what is the price of the replacement feather? Is it suppose 1/17 of the original shuttle?
3) The weight distribution. Victor use plastic ring to hold the shuttles in place so it will not change the weight distribution. But the plastic ring crack easily. I assume LN use AL ring for durability. To keep the shuttle at 5g and compensate the heavier metal ring, the shuttle weight distribution will change and flight path is not going to be the same.
4) Unless you can get all the feather line up in the right angle, the speed will very from 1 to next. It also wobble if you don't have it right.

Again, for practice, you can recycle the used shuttles. May be it is good to have the beginner kids to replace the feather as home work for the coach for free. Other wise, why bother?
those are valid points.
I still think they were from Prince, not victor:p Victor had the balloon contraption. I have some old hybrid shuttles with me so i know it's Prince:p

1) this can be solve. One bring a tube or 2 of the hybrid shuttles like normal shuttles. You replace the damage one like in your normal play but now u just save the damage ones. At home, u can repair the damage shuttles at your leisure;)
2) cost of the feather vanes is still unknown so i can't make more comment on this
3) Prince use plastic ring, aluminum would be too stiff, stiffer than a real feather cage. I think the hollow cork base could be aluminum.
4) this is the crux point, just replacing the feather vanes would not guarantee correct flight profile or consistent flight, even normal feather shuttlecocks need to be tested before sale.

I agree wif your view, this hybrid shuttles meant for recreational play to local tournaments. I doubt bwf would use it in their tournaments