Canadians Within Badminton

[MikeD]

Although I am sure this has been discussed before, I am not satisfied with the comments left by some of the non-CDN BC forum members. I believe this thread will shed some light on my countries badminton "potential".

Being a curious and patriotic Canadian, I decided to run in some of Canada's top players into BC's search option. The results upset me. Half of the results were comparing the top Candian men's singles players, againest top women of an international level. After checking the thread front and back, I noticed the general opinion was the same with few exceptions. Many people seem to think that just because a player is from Canada, he doesn't have the talents that many other players on an international level share. For instance, many people believed that Xie could beat Bobby Milroy or Andrew Debeka in a singles competition. This is hypethetical, however not well founded. If you were to put a more recognizable name into the Canadian's slot you would surely recieve a "NO WAY". But the thing is, againest a more recognizable name, the canadians can usually do very well. Example, Bobby Milroy Vs. Chen Hong (If Xie were to play Chen, who do you think would win?), the scores were as follows, 15-9, 15-13 for Chen Hong. Close game, no doubt. Remeber, this is not an attempt to start a battle of the sexes, I am merely stating what I have observed within the forums, nothing more, nothing less.


Let's get realistic though, Canadian badminton is based on grassroots programs. We generally don't have expensive training, infact where I live the only training camp offered, is one week in the summer to fundraise for Andrew Debeka and Stephan Wojikciwiz (this is my best attempt at spelling his last name :confused:) and the cost is a mere $175. Because of the lack of funds, many professional players in Canada are required to run these training camps as a means of support because they are only issued small sums of money by the Canadian goverment for competition.

Another factor on the Canadian badminton strain is the lack of popularity of badminton. Come on folks, how many times have you seen the local Pub tune into a badminton match instead of the hockey game. I have 15 hockey channels, and 5 other sports networks, yet I have never seen a broadcasted game of badminton. I have even contacted my local Satellite provider into obtaining an asian sports network, the response has gone unanswered for months.

I don't mean to drag on with our faults in many aspects of sport, but they are important factors that must be stressed to the outside world in comparison factors.

The last downfall is simply our lack of population.

HOWEVER with all of these throwbacks, Canada still has 2 players within the top 30 in the world rankings. Fairly impressive for a bunch of poor hicks who grew up playing badminton in gym class eh?

Thats my 2 cents, I'd love to hear yours.

[Eurasian =--(O)]

In Calgary we have a pretty good training program. We get to train with Ardy Wiranata 7 times a week with people like W. Milroy (Bobby's brother) and K. Foley. Our training group consists of around 16 people. Last time I checked Bobby was ranked top 20 in the world and Helen Nicole and Charmaine Reid were ranked to 20 world doubles. While badminton is not nearly as competitive here as it is in Europe or Asia, we are getting better. If we could afford more coaches and if there was more money in badminton we would see better results at a faster pace.

Bottom line we dont have the badminton and sports institutions to compete with China, USA... any country with a strong sports program we lose to. Sports performance pretty much comes down to talent pool and financial support.

[event]

The last downfall is simply our lack of population.

HOWEVER with all of these throwbacks, Canada still has 2 players within the top 30 in the world rankings. Fairly impressive for a bunch of poor hicks who grew up playing badminton in gym class eh?

Thats my 2 cents, I'd love to hear yours.There is no doubting the factors you mention. Population is not really as relevant as is the percentage of the population who have access to training and facilities. That is partly a function of money and partly of the importance of badminton relative to the overall sports scene. That is why Malaysia with 24 million or Denmark with 5 million people can still be competitive with giant countries like China and Indonesia.

As for your last point, I've heard from more than one source that Canada's top-notch players did NOT grow up playing badminton in gym class. They are the ones who had access to a club from an early age and were initiated into a stream of competitive players and coaches completely exclusive of the gym classes and even of the competitive but listless high school and university team system.

Is it impressive? Well, until recently, I noticed that Canadian players seemed to get unfairly high rankings from playing lots of small tournaments in the Western Hemisphere but that they'd lose to unknown Asians every time they were unlucky enough to meet them upon crossing an ocean. I've seen more exceptions to that rule lately but the rule still works in general. Look at world #20 Bobby Milroy losing to #62 Chan Yan Kit twice, #74 Kaveh Mehrabi, #78 Fischer Nielsen, #80 Kawaguchi Keishi...the list goes on. But it's been taking some higher-ranked players to beat him this year like Chen hong, Bao Chunlai, Niels Christian Kaldau, Lee hyun-il and Kuan Beng-hong. Reid/Nichol at #20 took out Ooi/Mooi (#24 of Malaysia) at the Singapore Open. They were ranked higher but this is exactly the type of match I'd never seen Canadian teams win. It's more common to see things like the Taiwan Open this week where a local ranked #277 will take out a Canadian #22. This isn't just true of Canadian pros but it is an example of the lack of reliability of the IBF rankings. It's slowly changing and that is encouraging.

I like hearing the news from Eurasian about the great things going on in Calgary.

[cooler]

Although I am sure this has been discussed before, I am not satisfied with the comments left by some of the non-CDN BC forum members. I believe this thread will shed some light on my countries badminton "potential".

Being a curious and patriotic Canadian, I decided to run in some of Canada's top players into BC's search option. The results upset me. Half of the results were comparing the top Candian men's singles players, againest top women of an international level. After checking the thread front and back, I noticed the general opinion was the same with few exceptions. Many people seem to think that just because a player is from Canada, he doesn't have the talents that many other players on an international level share. For instance, many people believed that Xie could beat Bobby Milroy or Andrew Debeka in a singles competition. This is hypethetical, however not well founded. If you were to put a more recognizable name into the Canadian's slot you would surely recieve a "NO WAY". But the thing is, againest a more recognizable name, the canadians can usually do very well. Example, Bobby Milroy Vs. Chen Hong (If Xie were to play Chen, who do you think would win?), the scores were as follows, 15-9, 15-13 for Chen Hong. Close game, no doubt. Remeber, this is not an attempt to start a battle of the sexes, I am merely stating what I have observed within the forums, nothing more, nothing less.


Let's get realistic though, Canadian badminton is based on grassroots programs. We generally don't have expensive training, infact where I live the only training camp offered, is one week in the summer to fundraise for Andrew Debeka and Stephan Wojikciwiz (this is my best attempt at spelling his last name :confused:) and the cost is a mere $175. Because of the lack of funds, many professional players in Canada are required to run these training camps as a means of support because they are only issued small sums of money by the Canadian goverment for competition.

Another factor on the Canadian badminton strain is the lack of popularity of badminton. Come on folks, how many times have you seen the local Pub tune into a badminton match instead of the hockey game. I have 15 hockey channels, and 5 other sports networks, yet I have never seen a broadcasted game of badminton. I have even contacted my local Satellite provider into obtaining an asian sports network, the response has gone unanswered for months.

I don't mean to drag on with our faults in many aspects of sport, but they are important factors that must be stressed to the outside world in comparison factors.

The last downfall is simply our lack of population.

HOWEVER with all of these throwbacks, Canada still has 2 players within the top 30 in the world rankings. Fairly impressive for a bunch of poor hicks who grew up playing badminton in gym class eh?

Thats my 2 cents, I'd love to hear yours.

that was me debating in that thread about canadian MS vs top china's WS. I did it to hightlight canadian MS players and they aren't as bad as some people think especially against top WS of all people.

Although we now have ardy here passing on his talents, there are still deficiencies holding back canadian (cdn) players becoming top 10.

1. ardy is just one person, bringing forward his brand and style of knowlege. Ardy by my estimate is 75% defensive and 25% offensive player in his prime years. What if a student has ability like LCW of MAL, having one coach like ardy may not help extract the full potential of this example student which should be talk with a coach with an offensive slant.

2. cdn badminton players dont have enough world class players to spar with, only just ardy now (ex pros chanarong and billy gilliland are too old to move fast anymore). In china and INA, there are players itching to overtake u so u have to learn adapt to play with all sort of players.

3. peanut funding from sport canada.

4. lack of facilities. In calgary, population of ~950,000, we only have ~10 real badminton courts and they are all with private clubs. All other courts are make shift pseudo badminton courts.

[Eurasian =--(O)]

that was me debating in that thread about canadian MS vs top china's WS. I did it to hightlight canadian MS players and they aren't as bad as some people think especially against top WS of all people.

Although we now have ardy here passing on his talents, there are still deficiencies holding back canadian (cdn) players becoming top 10.

1. ardy is just one person, bringing forward his brand and style of knowlege. Ardy by my estimate is 75% defensive and 25% offensive player in his prime years. What if a student has ability like LCW of MAL, having one coach like ardy may not help extract the full potential of this example student which should be talk with a coach with an offensive slant.

2. cdn badminton players dont have enough world class players to spar with, only just ardy now (ex pros chanarong and billy gilliland are too old to move fast anymore). In china and INA, there are players itching to overtake u so u have to learn adapt to play with all sort of players.

3. peanut funding from sport canada.

4. lack of facilities. In calgary, population of ~950,000, we only have ~10 real badminton courts and they are all with private clubs. All other courts are make shift pseudo badminton courts.

Number 1 and 2 are both big factors. Naturally I'm more of an offensive player, Ardy is hugely defensive. He's a great coach tho.

[viver]

Number 1 and 2 are both big factors. Naturally I'm more of an offensive player, Ardy is hugely defensive. He's a great coach tho.

Ardy was a very aggressive player in earlier years. If I remember correctly, he changed his style after severe illness (hepatitis??) which threatened his sporting career.

A good coach will evaluate your overall skills (fundamentals like stroke production and footwork usage) and work from there. In my opinion, Ardy is a very experienced player and should know what it takes to reach the top. It's your personality (how you see the game) and skills (what is needed to accomplish your vision) that will build your playing style, not the coach. The coach should discuss and make recommendations about it, not change your style.

[ViningWolff]

Alos, Logistically this is one wide country to try and "bring together" when it comes to players being able to play aginst one another.

Popel in Germany can go play in people Denmark in matter of hours in a Club to Club type of set up.

We have three hours to Edmonton, which doesn't have big numbers - it's ten hours to Vancouver, eight to Saskatoon, close to 12 to Winnapeg.

That's a lot of travelling to get upper level competition in.

Don't get me started on the private clubs like Glencoe/Winter.. they really piss me off and I view them as part of problem with out system.

Funding is also a problem, cause we simple don't get any like other countries.

[MikeD]

There is no doubting the factors you mention. Population is not really as relevant as is the percentage of the population who have access to training and facilities. That is partly a function of money and partly of the importance of badminton relative to the overall sports scene. That is why Malaysia with 24 million or Denmark with 5 million people can still be competitive with giant countries like China and Indonesia.

As for your last point, I've heard from more than one source that Canada's top-notch players did NOT grow up playing badminton in gym class. They are the ones who had access to a club from an early age and were initiated into a stream of competitive players and coaches completely exclusive of the gym classes and even of the competitive but listless high school and university team system.

I like hearing the news from Eurasian about the great things going on in Calgary.

These two points are ridiculas, of course population is important. The more people there are, the more people there are gunning for first place in the country. Why do you think the Chinese do so well? It's because if they don't train harder than anyone else on the circut, someone from China would gladly take their place to become a national badminton hero. Certain smaller countries do so well, not because of the large talent pool but because of proximity to other countries. Denmark doesn't need a billion people to produce great badminton players because it is very close to several other countries (pretty much all of europe is easy to access). If someone from vancouver wanted to enter the toronto open, it just wouldn't happen. Lets travel 5,000 KM about, to compete in a national tourney :eek: -----> no thanks. As for the gym class, not many people are pushed from a young age to play badminton, infact most discovered it in gym class, or playing in their backyard. Many of the top level players in ontario weren't introduced formally to badminton until they were 10-11 years old. Much to late to become a professional. (and yes, I've talked to a few including a rising star in Northern Ontario. GO Sylvestre!)

[event]

These two points are ridiculas, of course population is important. The more people there are, the more people there are gunning for first place in the country. Why do you think the Chinese do so well? It's because if they don't train harder than anyone else on the circut, someone from China would gladly take their place to become a national badminton hero. Certain smaller countries do so well, not because of the large talent pool but because of proximity to other countries. Denmark doesn't need a billion people to produce great badminton players because it is very close to several other countries (pretty much all of europe is easy to access). If someone from vancouver wanted to enter the toronto open, it just wouldn't happen. Lets travel 5,000 KM about, to compete in a national tourney :eek: -----> no thanks. As for the gym class, not many people are pushed from a young age to play badminton, infact most discovered it in gym class, or playing in their backyard. Many of the top level players in ontario weren't introduced formally to badminton until they were 10-11 years old. Much to late to become a professional. (and yes, I've talked to a few including a rising star in Northern Ontario. GO Sylvestre!)You pointed out Canada's impressive international ranking achievements. You are right about this. You also right about Canada's badminton population being largely "a bunch of poor hicks who grew up playing badminton in gym class". I simply pointed out that the ones with the rankings are not among the gym class hicks. Charmaine Reid is one of the top-30 Canadians and she grew up playing in clubs and never played for a high-school team even. I'm led to believe that Anna Rice and Bobby Milroy are in the same boat. Prove me wrong on this point and then call my point "ridiculous". If Sylvestre is a promising young star who grew up playing in gym class, great. But use him as an example to prove that my claim is "ridiculous" only when he matches your claim about the top-30.

As for populations, did you miss my comment that "There is no doubting the factors you mention"? In other words, population can be a factor. However, it's the competitive badminton population that is the factor not the population at large. If every country had equal opportunity to engage in competitive badminton, then straight population would be the main factor in determining the size of the talent pool. China combines access to the competitive stream with a huge total population. Brazil and India don't and that is why they can't compete with Malaysia or Denmark.

Your point about Danish players being competitive because of their proximity to other European nations is, to borrow your expression, ridiculous. First of all, why wouldn't Germany be stronger in badminton as they have 20 times the population and even more shared borders? Second, how does Denmark's proximity to other European countries subsitute for the number of people who are "gunning for first place in the country"? Danish players aren't in danger of losing their spots on the Danish national team to Germans or Czechs. They do have lots of other Danes "gunning" for their spots, though. That is because Denmark gives a lot of young people the chance to play badminton and to try to be competitive.

[MikeD]

You pointed out Canada's impressive international ranking achievements. You are right about this. You also right about Canada's badminton population being largely "a bunch of poor hicks who grew up playing badminton in gym class". I simply pointed out that the ones with the rankings are not among the gym class hicks. Charmaine Reid is one of the top-30 Canadians and she grew up playing in clubs and never played for a high-school team even. I'm led to believe that Anna Rice and Bobby Milroy are in the same boat. Prove me wrong on this point and then call my point "ridiculous". If Sylvestre is a promising young star who grew up playing in gym class, great. But use him as an example to prove that my claim is "ridiculous" only when he matches your claim about the top-30.

As for populations, did you miss my comment that "There is no doubting the factors you mention"? In other words, population can be a factor. However, it's the competitive badminton population that is the factor not the population at large. If every country had equal opportunity to engage in competitive badminton, then straight population would be the main factor in determining the size of the talent pool. China combines access to the competitive stream with a huge total population. Brazil and India don't and that is why they can't compete with Malaysia or Denmark.

Your point about Danish players being competitive because of their proximity to other European nations is, to borrow your expression, ridiculous. First of all, why wouldn't Germany be stronger in badminton as they have 20 times the population and even more shared borders? Second, how does Denmark's proximity to other European countries subsitute for the number of people who are "gunning for first place in the country"? Danish players aren't in danger of losing their spots on the Danish national team to Germans or Czechs. They do have lots of other Danes "gunning" for their spots, though. That is because Denmark gives a lot of young people the chance to play badminton and to try to be competitive.


That wasn't my point, I was simply saying Denmark can make up for the smaller talent pool in the country because the talent pool has much more chance to develope because of neighbouring competition. If Canada was next to any even remotely competitive countries (england for example), our team would be much stronger. Ontop of which, all of these factors go hand and hand, along with the promise to earn a great living. It's much easier to make millions playing hockey, then it is to play badminton. Especially here. The reason why germany isn't stronger could have many factors. Maybe they're just not badminton players? Maybe their team has poor funds? Maybe they lack the experience (coaching wise) to create an international level team. Who knows. I'm just saying, Proximity is a huge factor, why train harder if your already the best in your region?

[ViningWolff]

Only players I know of that came through the high school grassroots system who has made an impact internationally were Keith Chan and Darryl Yung. ( I played Darryl many times in High School)

Most others have come through the private multipurpose club system to my knowledge.

Oh, wait, one more - Mike Butler as far as I know trained on his own.
Bobby Milroy simply has parents who can afford for him to play over in Denmark and get his game up to a international level. ( don't know about dabeka or any of the others)

[spacey]

I agree that badminton isn't too popular in Canada unfortunately (makes it hard to find courts to play) but in Ottawa, we do have Dominic Soong who runs a school. He used to be former mens doubles #2 in the world, and now is living here. An amazingly nice fellow. www.soong.ca

I hope to take his classes one day.

[Eurasian =--(O)]

Billy Gilliand former number 1 or 2 doubles player is a principal at a school in Calgary as well. He used to coach the MRC team but stopped this year.

[cooler]

That wasn't my point, I was simply saying Denmark can make up for the smaller talent pool in the country because the talent pool has much more chance to develope because of neighbouring competition. If Canada was next to any even remotely competitive countries (england for example), our team would be much stronger. Ontop of which, all of these factors go hand and hand, along with the promise to earn a great living. It's much easier to make millions playing hockey, then it is to play badminton. Especially here. The reason why germany isn't stronger could have many factors. Maybe they're just not badminton players? Maybe their team has poor funds? Maybe they lack the experience (coaching wise) to create an international level team. Who knows. I'm just saying, Proximity is a huge factor, why train harder if your already the best in your region?

i also like to add, in my opinion, that denmark, unlike USA, isnt commercially driven. Unlike other developing countries (china, russia, etc) where lots of fans and players jumping into golf, hockey,tennis or other money sports bandwagon, danish seems to hold onto to their heritage/culture more so than the other. Denmark was once a great badminton nation and still is where as for canada, england and the USA, it was.

[cooler]

Billy Gilliand former number 1 or 2 doubles player is a principal at a school in Calgary as well. He used to coach the MRC team but stopped this year.
billy was also head coach of the canadian national & olympic badminton team as well ;) for many years.

[noluckjim]

You can do a lot with a small population. Down here in NZ we've only got 4 million, and while badminton isn't a national sport we've got players in the top 40 in all disciplines, and top 20 for some.

Assuming the IBF rankings are anything to go by :rolleyes:

We have alright sparring partners - we're constantly beating down on the Aussies :) (though admittedly they are getting stronger).

I think what we have is a fairly strong badminton population in NZ. In Auckland alone, I can think of at least eight different clubs. Having such a strong badminton population sure helps to keep badminton thriving, and allows for more coaches and local talent to emerge.

[jump_smash]

You can do a lot with a small population. Down here in NZ we've only got 4 million, and while badminton isn't a national sport we've got players in the top 40 in all disciplines, and top 20 for some.

Assuming the IBF rankings are anything to go by :rolleyes:

We have alright sparring partners - we're constantly beating down on the Aussies :) (though admittedly they are getting stronger).

I think what we have is a fairly strong badminton population in NZ. In Auckland alone, I can think of at least eight different clubs. Having such a strong badminton population sure helps to keep badminton thriving, and allows for more coaches and local talent to emerge.

Please let us not discuss the Whyte trophy!

As to factors, New Zealand Badminton gets a large portion of funding not from Government but affilation fees from its member regions.

Noting that Daniel and Sara have done very well, NZ spent a lot of money on training them, including having them based in Europe for a large portion of time, competing in plenty of tournaments at high standards.

Don't worry with Badminton Australia announcing a new national coach - Claus Poulsen, the direction is changing.

[MikeD]

It's amazing how we didn't even manage to fill a page and already the topic is off canada :crying:

[seven]

Bobby Milroy simply has parents who can afford for him to play over in Denmark and get his game up to a international level. ( don't know about dabeka or any of the others)

I think Andrew Dabeka trains in Denmark too... as for funding I don't know...

[noluckjim]

It's amazing how we didn't even manage to fill a page and already the topic is off canada :crying:
If it helps, I believe our national juniors bet your national juniors this year :p .

[MikeD]

I think Andrew Dabeka trains in Denmark too... as for funding I don't know...

Andrew Dabeka trains in Ottawa with Stephan. I talked to both of them this summer :cool:

[Jinryu]

So... what are the suggestions to fix this situation?


Some thoughts. Top Canadian players should actively try and teach next generations. From what i see, top canadian players seem to fade to black after their careers end (if you can consider badminton playing a career, considering how little it pays around here) but we need gyms started up-- as mentioned, actual training camps-- not just more clubs, but dedicated gyms with the intention of making better players and not just generating revenues.

(easier said than done, i know)

Side note: you'd think that in canada (at least my corner) where the winters are so cold, indoor sports would be more popular.:confused:

[seven]

Andrew Dabeka trains in Ottawa with Stephan. I talked to both of them this summer :cool:

Maybe I got mixed up then? :confused:

[edwin]

Maybe I got mixed up then? :confused:
You were right Seven. Andrew Dabeka used to train in Denmark before returning to Canada. Check out his biography in his website http://www.andrewdabeka.com

[seven]

You were right Seven. Andrew Dabeka used to train in Denmark before returning to Canada. Check out his biography in his website http://www.andrewdabeka.com

OK :D
So I wasn't so wrong, just not up to date! :o ;)

[sharkw]

Thought I'd add some thoughts to this discussion. Based on what I've seen, there's still a pretty huge gap between the top players in the world and the top Canadian MS players. Not to minimize Bobby Milroy's achievements this past year, but I'm afraid his ranking is not really indicative of his actual strength, though that would be getting into a discussion of the IBF ranking system which is a whole other can of worms. In any case, Dabeka, Milroy, Beres and Wojckiewicz don't present a real challenge to the top players at the moment.

That being said, I have to commend the Canadian players, and Andrew Dabeka in particular, for their obvious love and dedication to the sport of badminton. For some of the reasons mentioned by others (competition and geographical factors), I believe it is exceedingly difficult to develop a top player in Canada. In the end, a player with the proper potential will probably have to take their development into their own hands and go overseas for an extended period of time for training, which Dabeka has done to a certain extent when he was training and playing in the club system in Denmark. The national training centres in Calgary and Ottawa are fine for developing players up to a certain standard, but you need stronger competition to push you to the next level. Believe me, if any of the above players trained in Indonesia or China, they would probably get smoked at first on a regular basis by no-names.

As for potential, athletes such as Dabeka and Wojckiewicz have all the physical attributes to be top players -- left-handed, tall, lanky builds with superior strength and stamina. Perhaps if they had the fortune of being born in Asia they would have developed into top-ten players. It's still not too late, I would consider a player like Kenneth Jonassen to be an excellent inspiration as he only developed into a bona fide world class player well into his late 20's.

On another note, somebody mentioned Dominic Soong coaching in Ottawa. Having taken his classes, I can say that he is an excellent coach, though I note that some of his teachings may go against everything you've learned about badminton. Though, if you take the time to digest his theories you realize that he's actually right a lot of the time.

[MikeD]

Thought I'd add some thoughts to this discussion. Based on what I've seen, there's still a pretty huge gap between the top players in the world and the top Canadian MS players. Not to minimize Bobby Milroy's achievements this past year, but I'm afraid his ranking is not really indicative of his actual strength, though that would be getting into a discussion of the IBF ranking system which is a whole other can of worms. In any case, Dabeka, Milroy, Beres and Wojckiewicz don't present a real challenge to the top players at the moment.

That being said, I have to commend the Canadian players, and Andrew Dabeka in particular, for their obvious love and dedication to the sport of badminton. For some of the reasons mentioned by others (competition and geographical factors), I believe it is exceedingly difficult to develop a top player in Canada. In the end, a player with the proper potential will probably have to take their development into their own hands and go overseas for an extended period of time for training, which Dabeka has done to a certain extent when he was training and playing in the club system in Denmark. The national training centres in Calgary and Ottawa are fine for developing players up to a certain standard, but you need stronger competition to push you to the next level. Believe me, if any of the above players trained in Indonesia or China, they would probably get smoked at first on a regular basis by no-names.

As for potential, athletes such as Dabeka and Wojckiewicz have all the physical attributes to be top players -- left-handed, tall, lanky builds with superior strength and stamina. Perhaps if they had the fortune of being born in Asia they would have developed into top-ten players. It's still not too late, I would consider a player like Kenneth Jonassen to be an excellent inspiration as he only developed into a bona fide world class player well into his late 20's.

On another note, somebody mentioned Dominic Soong coaching in Ottawa. Having taken his classes, I can say that he is an excellent coach, though I note that some of his teachings may go against everything you've learned about badminton. Though, if you take the time to digest his theories you realize that he's actually right a lot of the time.

I couldn't agree more. Well put too. Badminton is a sport much like an onion, there are many layers. An example. Player one beats player two 15-2, player three beats playing one 15-3, player four beats player three 15-2 and ETC. In order to really become a global power, Canada should try and obtain a few of the higher ranked players (an example is tony going to the U.S.) to serve as coaches and sparing partners to make Canada's team even better.

[Eurasian =--(O)]

I couldn't agree more. Well put too. Badminton is a sport much like an onion, there are many layers. An example. Player one beats player two 15-2, player three beats playing one 15-3, player four beats player three 15-2 and ETC. In order to really become a global power, Canada should try and obtain a few of the higher ranked players (an example is tony going to the U.S.) to serve as coaches and sparing partners to make Canada's team even better.

Ardy Wiranata !

[hollywood_t]

Although I am sure this has been discussed before, I am not satisfied with the comments left by some of the non-CDN BC forum members. I believe this thread will shed some light on my countries badminton "potential".

Being a curious and patriotic Canadian, I decided to run in some of Canada's top players into BC's search option. The results upset me. Half of the results were comparing the top Candian men's singles players, againest top women of an international level. After checking the thread front and back, I noticed the general opinion was the same with few exceptions. Many people seem to think that just because a player is from Canada, he doesn't have the talents that many other players on an international level share. For instance, many people believed that Xie could beat Bobby Milroy or Andrew Debeka in a singles competition. This is hypethetical, however not well founded. If you were to put a more recognizable name into the Canadian's slot you would surely recieve a "NO WAY". But the thing is, againest a more recognizable name, the canadians can usually do very well. Example, Bobby Milroy Vs. Chen Hong (If Xie were to play Chen, who do you think would win?), the scores were as follows, 15-9, 15-13 for Chen Hong. Close game, no doubt. Remeber, this is not an attempt to start a battle of the sexes, I am merely stating what I have observed within the forums, nothing more, nothing less.


Let's get realistic though, Canadian badminton is based on grassroots programs. We generally don't have expensive training, infact where I live the only training camp offered, is one week in the summer to fundraise for Andrew Debeka and Stephan Wojikciwiz (this is my best attempt at spelling his last name :confused:) and the cost is a mere $175. Because of the lack of funds, many professional players in Canada are required to run these training camps as a means of support because they are only issued small sums of money by the Canadian goverment for competition.

Another factor on the Canadian badminton strain is the lack of popularity of badminton. Come on folks, how many times have you seen the local Pub tune into a badminton match instead of the hockey game. I have 15 hockey channels, and 5 other sports networks, yet I have never seen a broadcasted game of badminton. I have even contacted my local Satellite provider into obtaining an asian sports network, the response has gone unanswered for months.

I don't mean to drag on with our faults in many aspects of sport, but they are important factors that must be stressed to the outside world in comparison factors.

The last downfall is simply our lack of population.

HOWEVER with all of these throwbacks, Canada still has 2 players within the top 30 in the world rankings. Fairly impressive for a bunch of poor hicks who grew up playing badminton in gym class
Thats my 2 cents, I'd love to hear yours.


Here is an interesting thing I got from Dominic Soong former World#2 doubles from Malaysia. He's been coaching in Canada since mid 80's and is based in Ottawa. Remember Ian Sydie back in the late 80's. Well he and some of the other promising young talent were sent by the Ontario Bad. Assoc. to China all expenses paid to train and soak up badminton knowledge. At the time I believe he was the triple crown champ i.e. Singles, Doubles and mixed national champ. Dominic at the time was one of the Provincial regional coaches and was also sent w/ another coach to learn and observe or rip off badminton technology.

According to Dominic Ian played some young chinese girl up & comer and was beaten so badly that we threw away his racket, something like 15-1 or so. They "really whip that bird" was his response. From the rest of the discussion I had w/ him it wasn't a talent issue, but more a training and coaching philosophy gap that was at play. I don't think the gap has been closed that much as the Canadian system still emphasizes a more power and longer strokes model vs. quicker, shorter stroke that relies on more finger control and power. Just food for thought and mind blowing isn't it our best junior at the time getting smoked.

Top 20-30 is not bad considering the challenges badminton face here. But I think if we got the coaching philosophy right we'd do much better. Unfortunately the money and committment aren't there yet.

[ViningWolff]

Ardy Wiranata !

Speaking of Ardy, if I do well this weekend at the Glencoe Masters I'll have the unenviable task of playing him in the semi-finals.

At any rate I expect to lose a few pounds.

[Pete LSD]

And take extra teaspoon and tablets of glucosamine the entire week before tournament and after!


Speaking of Ardy, if I do well this weekend at the Glencoe Masters I'll have the unenviable task of playing him in the semi-finals.

At any rate I expect to lose a few pounds.

[asphyxiate]

I saw Dabeka at a random exhibition game in the summer, soon after the WC. He was playing against this Indonesian guy (can't remember his name :confused: ) who the facility had just hired as a coach. The Indonesian had just gotten off the plane (long flight from Indonesia to Canada) and he still beat Dabeka ridiculously. I think the Indonesian was retired too. I kind of wish that Canada would fund more, but Canada doesn't fund for much except for hockey and figure skating (it seems).

Badminton's also ridiculously underrated amongst the younger generations here. Many of my friends mock me for playing, and they're Asian! Its kind of sad, and they're like, yeah, badminton is a sissy sport / easiest sport in the world / lame / etc. My school's badminton team is also in sad sad shape. I don't know how people would be able to promote badminton here in Canada, especially when such sports as hockey and basketball dominate the sports arenas.

[ViningWolff]

I was a little alarmed to see very little inthe way of "new blood" at the recent Alberta championships.


The semi-finals featured mostly retired players with the exception of Will Millroy, Kyle Foley and Brody Hilland (though I'm not sure if he's training with the national team)

Keith and Jon V won the doubles - neither one of them is training full time.

One of Canada's up and coming stars, Alex Pang, I've been told, has quit cold turkey.

Not sure how long Dabeka will keep going - someone told me he can be prone to injury. Not sure about Stephan W either with his knee. Coming back off the type of injury he's had can be tough.

Now the singles biggest problem with badminton is not so much popularity - there is a large number that pay the sport up to the high school level. Howvere it is after high school that the number fall off quickly.

That is because there are limited resources, outside of the private clubs and few pockets of places to play to help develop the game. One of best players in Canada years back trained on his own out in the martimes.

Very true that we do not get the funding to train, that cannot be denied as a factor. However I could hold down a job and still train twice a day if need be in my early 20s.

Out of the 400+ kids that have come through the high school team system, maybe (maybe) a dozen went on to continue playing. Most simply cannot find a place to play anymore.

I've have a number people e-mail me asking for club listings as they are simply not easy to find. Most people in my small town don't know we have an adult club.

[cooler]

I was a little alarmed to see very little inthe way of "new blood" at the recent Alberta championships.


The semi-finals featured mostly retired players with the exception of Will Millroy, Kyle Foley and Brody Hilland (though I'm not sure if he's training with the national team)

Keith and Jon V won the doubles - neither one of them is training full time.

One of Canada's up and coming stars, Alex Pang, I've been told, has quit cold turkey.

Not sure how long Dabeka will keep going - someone told me he can be prone to injury. Not sure about Stephan W either with his knee. Coming back off the type of injury he's had can be tough.

Now the singles biggest problem with badminton is not so much popularity - there is a large number that pay the sport up to the high school level. Howvere it is after high school that the number fall off quickly.

That is because there are limited resources, outside of the private clubs and few pockets of places to play to help develop the game. One of best players in Canada years back trained on his own out in the martimes.

Very true that we do not get the funding to train, that cannot be denied as a factor. However I could hold down a job and still train twice a day if need be in my early 20s.

Out of the 400+ kids that have come through the high school team system, maybe (maybe) a dozen went on to continue playing. Most simply cannot find a place to play anymore.

I've have a number people e-mail me asking for club listings as they are simply not easy to find. Most people in my small town don't know we have an adult club.

Met keith last week in talisman center. He was gonna meet up with his mom that she play with bunch of C and D plastic players. maybe that is his secret training place now LOL ;)

about alex. He was picked/encouraged as a star jr to be groomed for the national. He was deciding on badminton or hockey. After hearing what u said now, i think maybe his poor showing from the last world jr made him to switch back to hockey. Badminton aint easy u know ;)

[Eurasian =--(O)]

about alex. He was picked/encouraged as a star jr to be groomed for the national. He was deciding on badminton or hockey. After hearing what u said now, i think maybe his poor showing from the last world jr made him to switch back to hockey. Badminton aint easy u know ;)

Panger quit hockey to play badminton a while ago. A couple years anyways. Pang quit badminton for a variety of reasons. I've been friends with Alex for several years.
The reason for the lack of players at the recent alberta series is for two reasons. Diplomas are going on at the same time and the Montreal Jr Open as well. (I didn't play b/c I am recovering from the flu :mad:)
Brody still trains with the national training center 5 times a week.
Keith doesn't train at all except for weights
Don't know about Jon

The next batch of juniors will start to be seen in 1-3 years. There are a ton of jrs at the glencoe who are training lots and are very enthusiastic. Ages range from 14-16 grade 9-11.

[sharkw]

Just some clarification on some of what has been posted here, based on my own conversations with Dominic Soong. Regarding Iain Sydie going to China as part of the Canadian exchange, I believe it was around '87-'88 which would make him 18-19 at the time. I think he was Ontario's top junior, and later on won junior nationals in 1989. And yes, he was pretty much creamed 15-1 by a younger Chinese girl.

As for the finger power that Dominic teaches, I can attest to the fact that it really does work. However, it's not so easy to spread to the masses, and in any case it's probably best to teach it only when players reach a certain level. There has also been some resistance to these ideas so I'm told. I may be getting the details a bit wrong here, but essentially when Dominic was first trying to teach those methods here in Canada, there were others who said the whip stroke/rebound stroke did not exist! I would not be surprised if the official coaching materials from Badminton Canada don't even talk about it. Which is probably best in any case, since it's a technique which should be taught by a practitioner as opposed to from a textbook.

About the exhibition match at Lee's in Toronto, based on what I've read (I wasn't there) Andrew Dabeka lost something like 15-2 (it was only one set) to Hariawan from Indonesia, who frankly I've never heard of. Andrew must have been out of form, but in any case it tells you how many other "never wases" there are in other countries who are very good players. If memory serves me right Hariawan also played in the Canadian Open later on, and won the MS to be the only one to stop a bunch of unknown Korean players from sweeping the events.

In the end, any Canadian hoping to reach a world standard in badminton will have to make a lot of sacrifices for not much return, and will have to realistically assess their abilities -- top in Canada means pretty much nowhere close to the top players. Just my opinion.

[cooler]

Panger quit hockey to play badminton a while ago. A couple years anyways. Pang quit badminton for a variety of reasons. I've been friends with Alex for several years.
The reason for the lack of players at the recent alberta series is for two reasons. Diplomas are going on at the same time and the Montreal Jr Open as well. (I didn't play b/c I am recovering from the flu :mad:)
Brody still trains with the national training center 5 times a week.
Keith doesn't train at all except for weights
Don't know about Jon

The next batch of juniors will start to be seen in 1-3 years. There are a ton of jrs at the glencoe who are training lots and are very enthusiastic. Ages range from 14-16 grade 9-11.

thx for clearing that up about alex.

[seven]

About the exhibition match at Lee's in Toronto, based on what I've read (I wasn't there) Andrew Dabeka lost something like 15-2 (it was only one set) to Hariawan from Indonesia, who frankly I've never heard of. Andrew must have been out of form, but in any case it tells you how many other "never wases" there are in other countries who are very good players. If memory serves me right Hariawan also played in the Canadian Open later on, and won the MS to be the only one to stop a bunch of unknown Korean players from sweeping the events.

OK the Indo was Hariawan, no wonder he beat Dabeka then!
Hariawan is a very good player, though not an indonesian international, he has been sparring-partner for the french team a few years ago (he has been replaced by Arif Rasidi since) and used to thrash everyone in the french league!

[ViningWolff]

I might see Slyder next week for lunch, so I'll ask him about the trip to China.



Eurasian - It was Conrad sun who made the remark to me about the lack of "new blood" as it seemed to him that a lot of semi-retired types were still deep in the draw.

Never occured to me about exams though - good point. Hoep to see the new crop of players soon. I played Alex when he was really coming into his own. First time I played him, I beat him soundly, but less than six months later, he beat me at the U of C tourney.

Wuold not want to play him now. I'd be lucky to get a few points, if that.

Jon is still playing up in Edmonton, though I don't know how much as I didn't get to talk to him. Tim Rostrup said there is a decent group in Edmonton that play/train together (Docksteader/Gibney/Chow etc)

[asphyxiate]

About the exhibition match at Lee's in Toronto, based on what I've read (I wasn't there) Andrew Dabeka lost something like 15-2 (it was only one set) to Hariawan from Indonesia, who frankly I've never heard of. Andrew must have been out of form, but in any case it tells you how many other "never wases" there are in other countries who are very good players. If memory serves me right Hariawan also played in the Canadian Open later on, and won the MS to be the only one to stop a bunch of unknown Korean players from sweeping the events.

Dabeka must have been out of form, but considering that it was only like, a week after the WC, one would think he would have been in pretty good form or whatever. Its too bad he lost, but everyone knew he wouldn't win =\. He was in a really good mood though, joking and stuff :p.

[ploppers]

OK the Indo was Hariawan, no wonder he beat Dabeka then!
Hariawan is a very good player, though not an indonesian international, he has been sparring-partner for the french team a few years ago (he has been replaced by Arif Rasidi since) and used to thrash everyone in the french league!

Hariawan was also runner up and national champion b4. Not just "any" indo player.

[slyinottawa]

Producing a top-level international player in Canada will always run into the same issues
as before......number of players available, facilities, exposure to high level play, etc.
Andrew has achieved his high ranking with legitimate wins over high level players (top-40).
But IMO, the human body is not designed to play badminton at a top-level, injuries can occur
so easily when pushing to the extreme. In Canada, we only have a handful of players that really push to that extreme and some get injured. In China, if someone gets injured they are replace until someone makes it to the top. And with facilities and exposure, it's just not part of our culture. Until a joe blow like me cannot decide to play on the national circuit and actually be competitive, badminton is only a recreational sport in Canada (unfortunately). What the top
players are doing these days I think is great, they work hard to get where they are. They make
the best of what they have and really do achieve their best.

ps. anyone have results from Nationals?

[iso300]

ps. anyone have results from Nationals?

http://www.badmintonyukon.ca/

[cooler]

Encouraging youth participation in Canadian heritage sports like Canadian three-down football and lacrosse with an investment of $1.5 million over the next two years in the new Canadian Heritage Sport Fund.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[martin8768]

(and yes, I've talked to a few including a rising star in Northern Ontario. GO Sylvestre!)
:eek: whats Sylvertre's first name? I think i know him, well not personnaly but i come from North Bay, hehe. but yah i feel ur pain MikeD, no one respects badminton and it will allways be less populair because of other sports like Hockey and football in canada.

[MikeD]

His first name is Nick, and by now his brother is almost as good as he is :eek:

[martin8768]

His first name is Nick, and by now his brother is almost as good as he is :eek:
ah okay, someone else tought so, just checking, so how is the weather in sudbury lol?

[Slider]

I just found this blog and would like to comment on some of what was said in January 2006 regarding my experiences at a training camp in China. It was stated by "SHARKW" and "HOLLYWOOD t" that I was beaten 15-1 by a young Chinese "up and commer" and that I threw my racquet after the match. Although I had a propensity to errupt in anger occasionally when playing poorly I can assure you this match never took place. I never competed against any of the girls and I'm fairly sure you've made this up to help augment your argument that Canadians will never compete on the same stage as individuals from Asia. I trained and played with the men while the women played and trained in a another gym.