Is Yonex good for the sport of badminton?

[Brett]

Hey everyone, it's time for a debate: Is Yonex good for the sport of badminton?

Here are some initial thoughts:

PRO:

- Yonex sponsors lots of tournaments, therefore making regional, national and international competition possible and sponsors players, making their devotion to the sport easier/possible.

- Yonex is a well known brand name that lends credibility to the sport to others who know of Yonex tennis and golf equipment.

- Yonex manufactures equipment of generally good quality at all levels, catering from the absolute beginning school children, to the best professionals in the world.

- Yonex is run by smart people - they seem to be occupying a similar role to IBM during the early years of the personal computer, but don't seem to be losing ground to other manufacturers/clones as IBM did to Compaq, HP, Dell, Gateway and hundreds of others.

CON:

- Yonex's prices are extremely high and much of the money seems to go back into its marketing machine. High prices of equipment deter people from picking up the game. Heavy marketing increases market share, which decreases competition, which leads to stagnation of new designs and higher prices.

- Yonex introduces gimmicks in racquet technology, such as titanium, that cost consumers more but don't necessarily add any real benefits to the products.

- Yonex's popularity results in other manufacturers devoting substantial resources to copying Yonex racquets, rather than developing more new designs of their own.

- Yonex hasn't done much to develop the sport of badminton in North America, particularly in the United States. If the sport became more popular in the U.S., it would likely result in increased level of competition, increased interest in international tournaments, increased prize money, increased television coverage, increased local interest in the sport meaning more opportunities for more people to play recreationally, etc... for badminton fans around the world.

- Some of the regular posters on the IBF message board are probably big Yonex fans.

Let's hear some of your thoughts. Does Yonex get you all warm, tingly and fuzzy inside, or do you think that Yonex is the antichrist and the bane of the sport?

Rules for the debate:

1) Explain your position well using detailed facts and reason;
2) Be reasonably civil to other people in the debate.

[Arthur]

I think your claims about Yonex racquet technology is some what true, but I think you can make the same argument for Tennis or Golf or even table tennis. I know for Golf and Tennis Yonex uses titanium. For tennis they also have an Isometric square head. Other manufacturers have comparable enhancements hammer strength, tri metal, titanium drivers etc. In terms of prices I think they are fairly comparable to tennis, but at least in North America tennis is much more popular than badminton. This could lead to less retailers selling badminton racquets leading to artificially high prices on racquets due to simple supply and demand. Another thing that could lead to high prices is volume. I know that tennis racquets are sold at major chain stores so some chain store i.e. Price Costco could potentially buy 1 million tennis racquets and get a lower price per unit allowing them to sell the racquets cheaper.
In terms of marketing dollars, I think success in selling sports equipment requires major athletes endorising products. Again look at tennis, Yonex had some high profile athletes like Monica Seles, Anna Kournikova and Martina Hingis. If these people did not use their equipment I am sure no one would use it. Look at Nike without Tiger Woods, those Nike golf hats would not be so popular. I think marketing money is just some thing you have to do to promote sports products. If anyone knows this it would be Nike. They have had some very good ad campaigns with Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Bo Jackson and Little Penny.
I think the cloning factor of Yonex racquets mostly stems from the price. People like the product, but they don't like the price that is why I think the cloning business is taking off. Even I would buy a knock off racquet if I knew it was of equal quality to Yonex, but i am not willing to spend the money to take the risk.
I think the fact that badminton is not popular in North America is not Yonex's fault. I am sure Yonex would want to grow the sport here so they could sell more equipment. Yonex does support the only major IBF tournament in the US. They put up $25,000 of the $30,000 prize money, provided the birds and asked some of the top korean players to come to the tournament. They also sponsor Nationals, Jr. Nationals and other tournaments run by the USAB.
I think badminton would have been much more popular if Forest Gump had played badminton instead of Table Tennis.

[Eric]

I think it is good, yonex helps makes badminton to be known.
if the rackets are too expensive then don't buy it.

[Cheung]

I can't really be certain that the high price of racquets deters people from picking up the game. My first racquet was 'Jaguar'. It was promoted by Gillian Gilks. I wasn't even aware of Yonex. I came across yonex because other people were using it.

Other manufacturers copying Yonex....at least their own R & D will be cheaper that way. Other less well known innovations were the flat shaft of the carlton 3.7x and the open throat design of one Slazenger racquet. Why these didn't continue I don't really know.

I have no firm opinion on the name. Just gimme the racquet, nice shoes and let's get on court!

[Gladius]

Actually, the fact of using a titanium mesh to dampen vibrations in carbon structures is not '********'. It actually works!

If you have a chance, go over the the Litespeed website to look at the latest titanium bikes with carbon seatstays and a titanium mesh and see their explanation.

[Daniel]

In any case, in terms of badminton racquets, the MP100 is certainly too much to pay for. Almost $300 in Canada!!!

[Winex West Can]

Isn't it a case of what the market would bear? If the Yonex retailers set the price for a MP100 at $300 and no one buys it, they will have to lower the price down to sell.

Given a choice between two similar racquets; one being a Yonex and the other being a clone and a price difference of $100 (e.g. Yonex MP100 and Winex MM100 or MM200), which one would you choose?

IMHO, Yonex has put a lot of marketing dollars into the sport to the point that they are the dominant brand and there are times when this is not good for the sport. e.g I heard at the All-England, Yonex refuses to allow retailers to showcase any other products other than Yonex which kind of defeat the purpose of competition.

[Cheung]

That's like the exclusive rights given to various firms at the Olympics. Coca cola does the Olympics and Pepsi doesn't get a sniff. (Have I got it the right way round?)

[cooler]

yes, u got it right way, i don't know anyone who sniff pepsi but just coke.

[cooler]

gladius, i will gladly support brett's and my claim (i have bashed ti mesh before) that ti mesh used in badminton racket is 100% ******** and does nothing to dampen the badminton frame.

I have read and saw the litespeed's exotic mono seatstay and i have concluded that litespeed objective was completely opposite of what you had suggested.

[Mag]

I have said much about this before (without anyone even asking for my opinion, heh) so I expect you all know where I stand. I have serious problems with Yonex as a company and their policies with regard to R&D, marketing, sponsoring, product range, pricing, warranties, etc etc.

However, the big problem for the sport of badminton isn't really Yonex itself. They just happen to be the market leaders, and they are acting as only market leaders can. The real problem is that badminton is so totally dominated by one company. It is close to a monopoly situation. From a consumer point of view, this is not an optimal market situation. Yonex is so much bigger that it is pointless to even discuss which brand would be "second-to-biggest". The smaller brands do not compete with Yonex, they compete with the other small brands, which is rather a destructive form of competition. Yonex pretty much dictates the market: if Yonex introduces racquets with a Titanium component, this is what the consumers will want, and then all other brands will have no choice but to sell Ti models too, regardless if they have other, better ideas.

Apart from resorting to Molotov Cocktails, there is probably only one way to change the current situation. That is for a smaller brand to start building a reputation for quality, good value for money and focusing on new ideas and TRUE technological invention, without even looking at what Yonex is doing.

For a long time, Carlton was doing a good job at this. They stuck with their oval frames and tried to perfect them instead of fighting the "iso battle" with Yonex. However, quality deteriorated, they lost most of their contracted top players and they decided to joing the Ti craze when it was too late...

Prince has given up the US for badminton, but they still market Europe. My guess is that they will never make it with the Y-joint design. Not because it isn't good, but because its benefits are too small to motivate traditional customers. Eventually they decided to do their take on the Titanium thing, but I don't think it helped...

Forza is another brand that has tried hard to get a piece of the action, and they were successful in Europe, especially in Denmark. However, I feel they have given up, and that they aren't really trying to challenge Yonex. There is nothing really unique about their products, other than that they are generally lighter than Yonexes... Don't get me wrong, they do have good products, but they are in the "grey zone": neither copycats, not inventors.

From my point of view, there is one bright star on the badminton sky at the moment: the French brand Babolat. They have taken a giant step with their latest Satelite series. New inventions, not just gadgetry. And they are absolutely 100% Titanium-free, which to me is the final proof that they are paving their own way. Let's just hope that their tennis products sell well enough to keep them innovating. If they manage to release a few more new series as good and as innovative as the Satelite, then, if there is any justice in this world, they should be a serious contender to Yonex... or at least they could emerge as a clear #2.

I can't think of any other sport which is as dominated by one brand. Look at tennis: chances are that among the eight players in the quarter finals of a major tournament you will see at least five different racquet brands represented. In soccer we have Nike and Adidas fighting in an undecided match. Golf has numerous brands, but no dominating one.

When (note that I'm not saying if) badminton regains its former popularity in the US, I think Yonex could have a harder time there, considering that it is a Japanese company. That could become a turning point.

[Brett]

Mag, sport sub-category that most closely resembles badminton, that I can think of (I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant of luge, cricket, and curling equipment, among other sports) is golf balls. Acushnet, maker of Titleist and Pinnacle golf balls, controls nearly as high of a market share in the golf ball market as Yonex does in badminton. Luckily, golf is a big enough sport that there is room for plenty of worthwhile competitors. Unfortunately, the direction that most companies seem to be taking is upscale. Golf balls running $3, 4 or even 5 a piece is bad for the sport, just as greens fees running $100, 200 or even $300 or more. Golf ball companies and shuttle companies don't exactly have an incentive to build the perfect product that will last forever and stay straight enough not to get lost (for golf balls).

You were quite a Forza fan for the past year, Mag - why do you now feel they have given up?

Could you please provide some details about Babolat's new badminton technology? I am having a hard time accessing Babolat's site.

[bernard]

Yonex is the best......I always use yonex equipment.

The feeling is there when I use Yonex..honestly I never use other badminton racket and equipment besides yonex.

Believe it or not but it is the true ...try it....:)

Bernard

[Mag]

Oh, I'm still a Forza fan. I still think they make great racquets. It's just that this year's models didn't have anything really new. There were some new models, but it's basically the same materials, and the same frame designs, and the same technology. I sense no desire to innovate... I am afraid they have become "followers", if you know what I mean.

Babolat, on the other hand, came up with several new inventions, and chucked them all in at once. Yonex would have held on to them, and launched one new invention a year instead...

I have played with a demo of the Satelite Comet, and apart from being just really impressed with its performance (in fact it was instant love), here are some things that caught my eye:

1. Babolat have designed a new 20x21 stringing pattern. There is only one string in each hole, which increases string life. (It is also faster to string, but I really don't care about that.) The density of the string bed is not constant. A bit like you see in modern squash racquets, peripheral strings are further apart, while strings at the centre are quite close, closer even than in an oval racquet.
2. The string runs around the head in a deep "groove", which has two benefits: 1) it is protected from wear when you pick up shuttles from the floor or if you accidentally bang it against something, and 2) the string runs in softer "loops", as the angles are less sharp (a bit like Yonex MP system, but this is an improvement over that).
3. The handle has two grip strips on the cap, for when you choke up on the handle in drops or rushes. This means you don't have to put overgrip half way up the shaft... OK, this is a small detail, but it just shows that their R&D dept are seeing things from the players point of view.

I want one badly. But I have promised myself that I'll buy no new racquet until my MP100 breaks...

On the other hand, I'm going to France tomorrow, and wouldn't it be stupid NOT to buy one there? ;)

[Daniel]

In my opinion, Yonex does makes a few good racquets. I still have a Rucarno RSX 99 racquet which costs me only C$40. I was able to generate many power smashes and tight good drops. The shaft is the most stiffest I've ever known. Even the all famous Yonex MP100 could not match that. Unfortunately, they don't make this model anymore. Now, I used the Yonex MP100 which was the closest I can find to fit my game.
As for Black Knight and Prince, I don't think they come close yet.

[Gladius]

Oh well, guess I can only leave it as that. But I suppose you're not a serious road cyclist are you??

Its a little hard to explain the little things that the Litespeed design is trying to achieve unless you have tried going at full throttle on a road bike for something like 100 kilometres or 60 miles at one go on a regular basis.

Likewise for badminton. Some people tell me that the Ti-10 has a better feel that the MP-100 and provides better feedback and he has been playing for some 4 years seriously. However, I have a colleague who has been playing for some 25 years serious and competitively and he tells me what I feel myself : The Ti-10 using the same tension and strings and same grip feels like a dud and the Mp-100 is a little better in that aspect of feel.

So who am I to believe ??

[Gladius]

Think you should try the Ti-10 if you love stiffness. Its the stiffest racket that Yonex is still producing.

[Mag]

Brett, it is all my fault that this promising topic has turned into a "this racquet is better than that racquet" battle... Sorry about that. I should have kept my mouth shut about specific brands etc.

Good try though. ;)

[cooler]

Mag, i personally consider forza as another clone maker. They came into being because they driven by profit motive and not for sake of badminton or being innovative. I don't know what forza market their rackets in europe but i have followed forza progress here in canada and i don't like what i'm seeing, marketing & product innovatiion wise, ie. they r likely go back to 'just another clone' status.

I have to applaud prince and babalot's attempt to put some innovation into badminton. Prince didn't pan out but i hope babalot would do better than prince.

Yonex is so ahead that they can slowly release new ideas, ie. milk them all their worth. This is understandable if one know about success, first to the market win.
However, most people mistook yonex ideas as innovation. Yonex don't or rarely invent new ideas, they get them from their suppliers. I can't think of one original innovation that came directly from yonex R&D. Even the isometric frame of yonex came from prince. There are so many myths and misconception in sport equipments.

[cooler]

Are you saying it take a serious road cyclist or doing a 60 miles ride to understand material science and physics?

I don't doubt litespeed makes great Ti bikes, that is precisely why i say u r wrong about why litespeed uses ti-mesh for vibration dampening.

Do you judge the merit of ti-mesh solely on feedbacks from your friends? No wonder u r indecisive on who to believe. Show me 50 people who like ti-10 and i can show you 51 people who dislike ti-10. A racket that feels better or not does not depend on how much more ti-mesh it has but rather on the overall design and how it adapt to their swing.

I don't own any yonex ti rackets for a reason.

Gladius wrote:
>
> Oh well, guess I can only leave it as that. But I
> suppose you're not a serious road cyclist are you??
>
> Its a little hard to explain the little things that the
> Litespeed design is trying to achieve unless you have tried
> going at full throttle on a road bike for something like 100
> kilometres or 60 miles at one go on a regular basis.
>
> Likewise for badminton. Some people tell me that the Ti-10
> has a better feel that the MP-100 and provides better
> feedback and he has been playing for some 4 years seriously.
> However, I have a colleague who has been playing for some 25
> years serious and competitively and he tells me what I feel
> myself : The Ti-10 using the same tension and strings and
> same grip feels like a dud and the Mp-100 is a little better
> in that aspect of feel.
>
> So who am I to believe ??

[Yogi]

I think Personally we shoudl stop buying YOnex! But the whole problem is availability of racket range! In India i can just get Carlton, ashaway and YONEx! Now it is very difficult to get the AB 2000 and the rasmussen! I dont liek teh AS ti as much as i used to like the other carltons!

ashaway produces some decent rackets but they dont last long! They will break in like 2 months after intensive training! They are to light! I like the powerkill 90 only!

I think Yonex is so bad that it has becoem something like a status symbol! Each time someone goes to SG i tell them to buy brands like Proace or GOSEN! I have told plp to buy RSl also but then all of them will come back with one sick YONEX racket!

The fact is that we have to agree that YOnex produces a lot of variety at consistent Quality! i dont like the way they advertise or try to monopolise others!

Think of shoes! Yonex are the worst shoe makers that i have ever seen! They are racket makers trying to do shoes! They simply dont last as long as one small adidas Indoor shoes! Why is that!

I think the most lucky are the Europeans! They have so many brands but then it is sad to see them still using YONEX! I believe that Mp or Titanium does nothing great to any racket! from what mag seems to say , i think Babolat have recognised something that is most important ! They have tried to understand and address simple racket issues and also serve the customer what they would expect with a good racket! They dont seem to be saying BUY WHAT I GIVE U!

I totally agree that YONEX's attitude is all bad for the sport as more coaches are drawn in to the picture when they tell thier students to buy yonex! I guess if all of us stop buying YOnex for a Year then it would really start a WAVE!

[Cheung]

If you don't use any other equipment, how can you say that Yonex is the best?

All I can deduce is that Yonex is the most popular.

[cooler]

whoa yogi, u r getting too emotional about this topic. My previous yonex related posts were addressing specific point of view, i hope i didn't painted yonex as an evil empire. There are many good parts of yonex that were mentioned by other posters which i didn't want to repeat in my post. If one understand the sport business or business in general, yonex is no worst than other companies. Biggies like wilson, carlton, slazenger, munizo, etc can easily over take yonex if they want to, all they have to do one day is to decide on taking over the badminton market, it's simple as that. For the moment, they let yonex have the badminton market because it is peaunt to those biggies. Posche now makes golf balls and clubs, it is obvious that porsche didn't want the badminton market.

my point for u is to know what u want from badminton, be it rackets, shuttles or shoes. Yonex earned their reputation so they are rightfully to charge higher price for their products. Furthermore, some people don't mind paying the slight premium for yonex products. This also goes to people buying bmw, audi when toyota's equivalent serve the same purpose and even being more reliable and cheaper too.

[Eric]

Its not the equipment that makes up the player.

[Daniel]

True to a certain extent. It is a tool to help a player. If you have a racquet that can help you generate more power and accurate shots, why not use that to your advantage?
I find a racquet with heavier head can provide more smashing power for me but slow in defence.

[Josh B.]

I wish that Carlton would get back up there in popularity. I used to love Carlton and all their racquets until I started trying Yonex a couple months ago. Now I like their racquets but I still want Carlton to be able to get up there. I know that Mag is also big with Carlton, am I correct? I think that we should all start buying different brands of racquets and see if our outlook on Yonex changes.

[Clyde99]

I was just wondering if anybody else here thinks that Yonex has too much power in the Badminton industry? It just seems that nearly every professional player in the world uses Yonex with very few exceptions.

In every other sport there is competition between manufacturers, from Tennis to Golf. But in badminton, even at club level, I would say over 90% of people use Yonex rackets/strings. I don't think its because they bring out superior products, because they don't. There are plenty of other brands out there bringing out equivalant or better products for a fraction of the price, but they still can't compete for market share. Yonex rackets are good, but you could get a racket which is just as good for a fraction of the price from say tronex or carlton. Same goes for there shuttles.

Maybe its just me. I don't generally like buying from big manufacturers as feel I'm paying for the name. In this case you definitely are, as you pay massive premiums on there top rackets just because the pros use them, even though it will cost them the same amount to manufacturer as say a budget racket. The same goes for there shuttles. You could get better shuttles form other brands such as RSL, Victor, Snowpeak, Ashway for cheaper.

I'm not saying that Yonex products are bad. It just unusual and slightly worrying to have a sports company dominate the market like they do. If you look at Tennis or Golf, there are so many brands that the top players and tornaments use for there rackets, clubs, strings and balls.

[Clyde99]

As regard to Yonex being inovators, they do bring out new rackets on a yearly basis. That doesn't mean that they are better just because they are made out of different material or they have words like Nano or Muscle Power in front of their name.

There are other inovators in the industry. As mentioned before Babolat, Gosen, Prince, and even Wilson (Using their tennis R&D). If yonex brought out a kick point racket like Gosen (which I feel works) it would be used by everybody, but by Gosen its just considered a gimmick. I have in my bag a couple of Yonex MP99 rackets, 2 Gosen Gavun 5000, and 2 Babolat Satellites. I play just as well with all of them, although my favourite is the Gosen. But I know players who won't play with or even try anything else apart from Yonex. I guess it will just always be at the back of there mind, 'would I have played better with a Yonex' or 'did I lose because of my Carlton racket'.

If badminton became bigger in the US, more American companies would take notice and compete by putting more into marketing and sponsorship, but as it stands most of these European and other Asian manufactures can't compete with Yonex.