Mixed responses to 21-point rally scoring system

[ants]

TheStar Dec 11

KUALA LUMPUR: There were mixed responses from the Olympic Games gold medallists on the International Badminton Federation’s (IBF) move to try out the 21-point rally scoring format in all world ranking tournaments from February next year.

Yesterday, Indonesian couple Alan Budi Kusuma and Susi Susanti, who were the 1992 men’s and women’s singles gold medallist at the Barcelona Games; and the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games women’s singles champions Bang Soo-hyun of South Korea tried out the system during the official opening ceremony of the new IBF headquarters in Kuala Lumpur.

Atlanta Games men’s champion Poul-Erik Hoyer-Larsen was also present but did not play during the simple opening officiated by Tun Dr Siti Hasmah Mohd Ali.

Others present during the ceremony were IBF’s newly-appointed ambassador Sally Yeh of Hong Kong, local singer D.J. Dave, Indonesian actress Mia El Dabo and Indian Bollywood star Aftab Shivdasani

Susi, who played in a mixed doubles match, took time to get adjusted to the new system.

“I have not played under this new format before. I am just a little confused. There is no time to rest because the service changes hands at every point,” said the 34-year-old, who was inducted into the IBF’s Hall of Fame last year.

Her chubby husband Alan was also on uncharted waters with the new format and said: “I have been out of touch of badminton for a while now. This is certainly very new for me. But it could be good if the change brings better coverage for the game.”

The lanky Soo-hyun seemed more excited about the new format and concluded: “It only takes a little time to get adjusted to it.”

The blue-eyed Hoyer-Larsen was more analytical.

“I have played under this format back at home. I support this change. One has to react at each point and the level of concentration is very high. It certainly brings the game to a higher level,” he said. “The match will be shortened by 20-30% with this new scoring system. But I would have preferred to have five games instead of three.”

Under the 21-point format, a point is awarded for a rally won and whoever scores the point holds service.

A match will go to deuce at 20-20. The side getting two consecutive points wins the game. If the game is tied at 29-all, the side scoring the 30th point wins the game.

For the doubles, the winner of a rally holds service but there will be no second server.

Meanwhile, national chief coach Yap Kim Hock welcomed the use of the 21-point rally scoring for next year's Thomas-Uber Cup Finals.

“It will be new for everyone and there is a chance for anyone to win the Cup. It will be an open game. We will concentrate on the new scoring format in February. We will focus on the All-England now (Jan 17-22),” he said.

When IBF last experimented the seven-point in best-of-five-games scoring format at the 2002 Thomas Cup Finals in Guangzhou, Malaysia finished as the runners-up.

[DinkAlot]

Sorry, a BIG SKIP on the new points format. The current one is just fine the way it is. At least to me from a game play stand point. As for incorporating commercials and/or rest periods, that's up in the air.

One thing is for sure, keeping score in doubles will definitely be much more difficult.

[tze yang]

i agree with hoyer larsen this actually brings more concentration out of the players which would be hard at first but will soon be able to adapt, especially for taufik, and definitely 5 sets would be better than 3, i kinda still like the old system but if they make it 5 sets i really wouldnt mind

[dlp]

What are the aims of the new scoring: I assume

1) To shorten matches and possibly make them of less variable length

This will definately be achieved: I believe matches will be shortened by at least 30%, as a by product there will also be more upsets since a lesser player is far more likely to outplay a seed for a shorter time. If it was true that Tv would be increased with a shorter format then fine, but I have seen no evidence of this, in fact most big TV sports take far longer than a badminton match

2) Create more "big" points and more pressure

The scores in matches will appear closer but once we get used to it big points will still only be at the end of games, and with only 3 ends I don't see any real gain here. There will be pressure due to the shorter format, this will probably lead to lower standard play since most players don't play well under extreme pressure.

3) Easier to understand

Most 10 year olds understand the scoring just fine, I really don't believe that with proper coverage it is any harder to score badminton than tennis, golf, gymastics! etc

Imagine the scene , badminton england BE, are trying to get the thomas cup onto bbc.

BBC"So are England likely to be in the semi finals?"

BE" No, but we usually qualify for the final stages and could make the quarters and thats the same as our football team usually."

BBC " what other countries will be favourites? USA, France, Germany?"

BE" No, China , Indonesia, Malaysia, Korea"

BBC"OK, who are the star names that will be playing? "

BE" Lin Dan, Taufik, Chen Hong, Peter Gade"

BBC"Who?"

BE"But now we have a new scoring system, you score for every point if you are serving or not, and play to 21 x 3, this means the games will be 25% shorter so you could show the finals in about 3 hours."

BBC" Oh that makes all the difference here's a six figure cheque"

[wedgewenis]

21x3 is inadequate, 15x3 is better in most respects and most of the reasons for the change reflect the IBF's ineptitude and lack of creativity.

Rallypoint might bring out concentration or intensity in the players but having games go to 21 points is just stupid and generally not very fair if you consider different play styles..... if they want rallypoint then it should be like tennis sets of games for less points. 9 at the most.... i would prefer 5 or 7...then you could still have comebacks.

[smash_master]

having not used this format in a tournament yet i personally just dont like the sound of it...it might cut down the time of a match but what is it doing more players will be less likley to try high pressure shots ( i know i will be) cause well if they screw up they lose a point...well i dont like it but have to play with the new system at a local tournament this friday...i would hope that the IBF keeps it the way it was, 3x15, and does not permanetly impliment this new system of 3x21 rally point. Well thats just my quick 2cents on it...will have to see how i do on friday with this system.

[Dandirom]

i have more fun playing with the old scoring system - it was the length of the games that added more fun to it. comebacks were possible, players were unafraid to take risks, and there was more variety in the shots players took. when using this new system all you see are clears and smashes -most of the time, that is. and if one of their considerations was to make badminton more appealing to more people...boy, even old timers are having trouble making sense of the new scoring systems, how would they expect newbies to fare when they tried it?:)

[jackson_ngo]

by changing the points from 15x3 to 21x3, isn't it demanding more stamina and time??

Why are people saying the new scoring system reduce the duration??

[seven]

by changing the points from 15x3 to 21x3, isn't it demanding more stamina and time??

Why are people saying the new scoring system reduce the duration??

No, it is changing from 3x15 serve scoring to 3x21 rally scoring.
The new scoring system makes matches 10 to 50% shorter.

[jackson_ngo]

hm... so in the case of doubles, do each side gets 1 chance of serve or 2 chances?

[seven]

hm... so in the case of doubles, do each side gets 1 chance of serve or 2 chances?

just one serve.
for precise rules, I suggest you search the forum, the information can already be found.

[jackson_ngo]

i've got the idea of it, thanks for the info:)

[twobeer]

Why are they always reffering to positive comments from EX.... badminton pros... Isn't it more interesting to get the views of CURRENT players..

I don't think for a moment the guys playing the all england final this year will lack concentration, and would concentrate more if it was fewer rallies (teh effect of 3x21 rally scoring).

We have already seen that European tournaments seem to stick to 3x15 (I applaud this!!)..

I think Gades opinion for example should be taken much more into account than any ex-player...

my 2 cents

[seven]

Why are they always reffering to positive comments from EX.... badminton pros... Isn't it more interesting to get the views of CURRENT players..

Maybe because they can't find any current player to defend this system! :p

The old ones don't really bother as they don't play anymore, so they are willing to say what IBF wants them to say.. ;)

[Dandirom]

Maybe because they can't find any current player to defend this system! :p

The old ones don't really bother as they don't play anymore, so they are willing to say what IBF wants them to say.. ;)

ouch. lol!:D won't be long before taneepak reads this and posts a rebuttal.:) let me guess, a list of current players for the new system? hehehe

[sharkw]

I've ranted on this before, but I absolutely detest the new scoring system. Frankly, I think the people behind these changes at the IBF are a bunch of idiots. All these changes the IBF is trying out is in the name of getting more TV air time/popularizing the sport. The fact of the matter is, no scoring change will make badminton more watchable or popular among those not already following badminton! If anything, these changes are only serving to piss off dedicated badminton fans like myself.

In addition, the IBF hasn't considered another aspect resulting from shorter games. Rather than encouraging more air time, these changes could very well short change viewers in that existing broadcasts will essentially be shorter and have less badminton! Somewhat competitive 2 set matches are going be on the order of 30-35 minutes rather than 45 minutes plus. Big comebacks from way down, which happened from time to time under serve scoring, will be very, very unlikely in rally scoring.

If the aim is to increase the TV coverage and popularity of badminton, there are many other changes (mainly subtle ones to presentation) which can be tried out. But in the end, one has to recognize no matter how well you present the sport, there is the possibility that it's just not meant to be a hugely watched sport. Anyway I'll have to expand on my thoughts in another post sometime, but here are the details concerning TV broadcasts that should be looked at closely. Of course, a lot of these are up to the tournament organizer rather than the IBF.

- camera angle(s)
- background lighting (should be dark - it looks very clean and dramatic)
- knowledgeable but unobtrusive commentary
- court colour (I admit I prefer the classic green courts but at least I'm flexible here)
- athlete attire (though the move to looser clothing standards is a good thing, there's something classic about the old all white, tucked in shirrt look - in any case the look to avoid is Kenneth Jonassen's sleeveless orange outfit with matching shoelaces in his match against Bao at the Copenhagen Masters)
- sound (I don't think anybody's ever thought about this, but maybe it would be worth getting sound engineers to tweak the sound to make hits sound more explosive in broadcasts - one of the problems at the moment is that to a casual observer it looks like the players are just dinking the bird around, though we know better)

[alma66]

I have played both doubles and singles with this new system and i think it is OK. The older system is much better.

Your service is much more critical now, because if you make an error on serve, the opposition gets the point.

Its a shame that this scoring system will be in place at the Australasian U17 Champioships :crying:

If China manage to win most of the tournaments with this system, the IBF will stick with it.

[serviceover]

One thing is for sure, keeping score in doubles will definitely be much more difficult.

not a difficult as you think, i have umpired this format and after a few points, its quite simple. I think it does make the game faster....

[DinkAlot]

not a difficult as you think, i have umpired this format and after a few points, its quite simple. I think it does make the game faster....

It's more difficult than the current 15 point system but as you said, it's not that, that difficult once you play it a few times. Still, the new point system is something I will not use and oppose.

[manabu]

to be honest, the new format ruins the spirit of badminton. I have seen to conservative gentlemen doing clears about 80% of the time, each serve high. What a boring game! :crying:

so it doesnt necessarily prolong the duration of the game....

[serviceover]

I think we should give the new system a chance, its still only being tested and not yet law. If it proves itself, it will be adopted, whether we want it or not. If it doesnt, it wont.

[seven]

I think we should give the new system a chance, its still only being tested and not yet law. If it proves itself, it will be adopted, whether we want it or not. If it doesnt, it wont.

This is if we were in a perfect world! ;)
Though in a perfect world we wouldn't spend our time spoiling the pro circuit by testing silly scoring systems all the time... :rolleyes:

[serviceover]

Is anything in this world perfect?

If anything, i thought the 5 x 7/9 serve point system better, pity it wasnt adopted.

[seven]

What I mean is that the decision will be political, and NOT linked to the result of the test.

The only hope is that fans and national organizations will put so much pressure on IBF that they will politically need to change their mind.

[seven]

And knowing that european nations will go against this scoring system, our hope is that one or several of the major asian nations will go against it.

We need to count on all asian fans from BF to put pressure on their national badminton organization! :D

[kwun]

if someone can write a good article on why the 21pt system is bad, i will be happy to publish it on BC.

it may be a long article though... ;)

[seven]

We would need to put together all the arguments that have been given for and against it.

against it : so that we can detail them

for it : so that we can show why they are wrong! ;)

I would be interested in doing it, but I won't have the time for the moment... (yes this might be a very long article :p )

[serviceover]

why not wait until after TUC next month. Then get some reaction from the players.....

[seven]

why not wait until after TUC next month. Then get some reaction from the players.....

The article will be long to write, we can start gathering arguments now... and finish it after TUC! ;)

[kwun]

The article will be long to write, we can start gathering arguments now... and finish it after TUC! ;)

if we can identify the main points now, we can divide up the article into multiple sections and write/publish them individually. that way, it will be more tractable and easier to manage/write.

[Loh]

Excerpts from reports dated Jan 24, 2006:

by Cubby Leong of Singapore's "Today":

Speaking to Today last September, IBF deputy president Punch Gunalan claimed he was in favour of a 21-point system as he wanted the sport to be more television friendly. When contacted yesterday, Gunalan said the 21-point system is not a shoo-in. It will be tested out in various tournaments over the next four months, including at the Commonwealth Games (March 15-26). It is in the experimental phase and everyone is keen to see how it pans out. IBF will meet in Tokyo in May to deliberate over what they've seen over the 4 months. The final decision will be made solely with the idea of bringing the game forward.

SBA technical director Zheng Qingjin is currently working with his (Singapore) players to get everyone adjusted to the new scoring format. He said the IBF came up with the decision purely for commercial reasons and he is very supportive of the move. He thinks it's a possible way to reinvent the game.

Zheng further commented that fitness will no longer he held in as high regard as before because match time has shrunk. Speed and mental strength will also take on a new meaning because everything happens so quickly. And the serve is more important than ever before because if you foul, you immediately lose a point.

Kendrick Lee, 21, Singapore's current No.1 player says he personally thinks his game is more suited to the 15-point system. There are good and bad points to the 21-point system. Everything will happen so quickly, advantages will be lost in a flash and points will be won in a flash.

by Rajes Paul of Malaysia's "The Star":

Chief coach Yap Kim Hock told his players to look ahead to the new challenges under the new scoring format. Now, the focus should be on adapting to the new system. There will be changes to our training programmes to adapt to the change. The pace of the game will be faster. The players must be psychologically stronger to excel under this new format which would put everyone (every country including China) on en equal footing. For a start, it will be a more open game.

[seven]

Thanks Loh, with this article plus Punch Gunalan's response to jump_smash we can recuperate some of the arguments given in favour of the new scoring. (though they are easy to demolish ;) )

And I'm sure taneepak has already given loads too...

I'll try reorganizing them later.


On the other side, the arguments against the rally scoring are easy to find, but we'll need to organize them too...

[serviceover]

I will be at the TUC, and will try and get some reactions from players, coaches and umpires. .

[Loh]

Thanks Loh, with this article plus Punch Gunalan's response to jump_smash we can recuperate some of the arguments given in favour of the new scoring. (though they are easy to demolish ;) )

And I'm sure taneepak has already given loads too...

I'll try reorganizing them later.


On the other side, the arguments against the rally scoring are easy to find, but we'll need to organize them too...

Hope you'll give the experiment reasonable time so that coaches and officials concerned will be able to comment on it after a fair trial. ;)

[seven]

Hope you'll give the experiment reasonable time so that coaches and officials concerned will be able to comment on it after a fair trial. ;)

Obviously we can wait a reasonable time to give it a "fair" trial. But :

- We can't wait too long as it will be too late otherwise
- This trial isn't particularly "fair", why are we testing this system and not another one? No one was consulted for it...
- The trial will not give us answers to how the game would evoluate over the years (type of players, game style, injuries...)
- It won't give us any answers about TV coverage either, as TV coverage is already progressing without the new scoring
- Many things can already be said with a simple theoretical "mathematical" analysis of the scoring system...

If we want to "save" our favourite sport, we need to start getting organized now!

[serviceover]

If we want to "save" our favourite sport, we need to start getting organized now!

I agree, but knocking the 3 x 21 before its really been tested and getting players feedback may not be the right way to do it.

!! This is a general statement and not aimed at any one person. !!

Lets give it a chance and see what happens.

[seven]

So, here I start with the "bad" part ;)

1/ more TV friendly because...
* more predictable match lengths
* shorter matches
* score evolution is easier to understand
* current game is old fashioned (???) -> Punch Gunalan said it...

2/ more interesting because...
* faster pace
* more open game (more upsets)
* higher concentration required (?)

3/ less injuries because ...
* shorter matches (read argumentation about high smash speed causing more injuries according to Punch Gunalan...)

4/ players like it! (Punch Gunalan said so...)

[seven]

I must admit I find Punch Gunalan's arguments particularly silly, the last one even being a lie... but hey, we need to list them in order to explain why they are silly! :rolleyes:

[seven]

I just wrote this list quite quickly and probably forgot quite a few arguments.

If you think of arguments (in favour of new scoring) that I have forgotten, post them here!

[seven]

By the way, if anyone has time to initiate the list of arguments against the new scoring, feel free to do so as I don't have time to do it right now...

[twobeer]

By the way, if anyone has time to initiate the list of arguments against the new scoring, feel free to do so as I don't have time to do it right now...

I'll give it a start:

* Increased length of uneven matches (requires 21 instead of 15 points to win)
* Decreased length of even (exciting) matches (the rally scoring limits the length).
*Introduceses a bigger element of chance/luck, as the game is shortened.
* less chance of spectacular comebacks, as its proportionally easier to get points while having the advantage of receiveing the serve.
* Makes the game less physical demanding (sissifying the sport).
* Makes double serving rules more complex.
* May decrease TV air time (faster games = less time shown).
* Adds confusion to the public on badminton rules and scoring.
* More "fair" (less upsets) (greater chance of the best badminton player actually winning the game)
* Shorter games with more breaks have already been tried, and rejected (5x7).
* Testing, changing & voting takes, time, resources, money, energy that could be better used to market badminton and get more TV air time.

[seven]

I'll give it a start:

* Increased length of uneven matches (requires 21 instead of 15 points to win)
* Decreased length of even (exciting) matches (the rally scoring limits the length).
*Introduceses a bigger element of chance/luck, as the game is shortened.
* less chance of spectacular comebacks, as its proportionally easier to get points while having the advantage of receiveing the serve.
* Makes the game less physical demanding (sissifying the sport).
* Makes double serving rules more complex.
* May decrease TV air time (faster games = less time shown).
* Adds confusion to the public on badminton rules and scoring.
* More "fair" (less upsets) (greater chance of the best badminton player actually winning the game)
* Shorter games with more breaks have already been tried, and rejected (5x7).
* Testing, changing & voting takes, time, resources, money, energy that could be better used to market badminton and get more TV air time.

Tried to reorganize them and add new ones ...

New scoring format is bad because :

1/ it takes excitement out of the game :
* uneven (uninteresting) matches are made longer
* matches are shorter overall (and closest matches are only half as long as they used to be)
* come-backs are made almost impossible (specially in doubles as receiving the serve is an advantage)
* end of games are much less exciting (too fast, very little chance of come-back...)

2/ it changes radically the sport
* the game is much less physical demanding (stamina and mental strength are made secondary)
* pace and power becomes too important => variety of shots + creativity will tend to disappear (same problem as 5x7)
* introduceses a bigger element of chance/luck, as the game is shortened.

3/ bad for TV coverage
* scoring changes have already showed their inefficiency to increase TV coverage in other sports (volley-ball, table tennis etc...)
* constant scoring changes (5x9, 5x7, 3x11 ...) are destroying badminton's credibility, they add confusion to the public on badminton rules and scoring
* makes double serving rules more complex.

4/ Bad for players
* more risks of injuries with development of muscular power game (increasing training workloads etc)
* introduceses a bigger element of chance/luck, as the game is shortened. (less fair results in the end)

5/ Players and fans don't like it
* BF poll gave 87.22% against this scoring system (out of 313 answers from fans)
* many major pro players are standing against it (Tony Gunawan, Peter Gade ...)
* fans won't go to stadiums and pay to see lightning short matches
(finding new fans is good but IBF must start by thinking of its already existing fans in order to have some crowd during matches)

6/ Time, money, resources and energy should be used for more urgent matters
* the 3x15 system has proven fine for a while and there is no urgency to change it
* GP circuit needs reforming(too many equivalent level tournaments leading to China Masters disasterous entries last year for example)
* world ranking points need readjusting to give more importance to tournament winners and less points to early round losers
* IBF needs to improve its marketing to sell badminton current format (which already has attracted millions of fans within the world) to TVs
* adopting the new scoring means risking dividing even more asian and european badminton federations, when badminton needs unified efforts for its development rather than inner-quarrels...

[seven]

Feel free to give ideas to complete (or reorganize) both lists.

Kwun, just thought of something : we could write an article (on why the new scoring is bad) and use it as a base for an online petition.

If we can get Tony Gunawan, Peter Gade and other famous badminton personalities to sign the petition, plus hundreds of fans behind them, it could probably have a good impact!

(I feel in an optimistic mood today ;) )

[Loopy]

I'm voting for Seven as the new IBF president.
That is, french people are politician by nature, I just hope he doesn't screw us in the back like they all do. :p

[seven]

I'm voting for Seven as the new IBF president.

Hehe, thanks for your vote! :D:p


That is, french people are politician by nature, I just hope he doesn't screw us in the back like they all do. :p

Are they? :o
Well, I admit I am interested in politics (not politicians), both in sport and ... "real life" ;) but I agree politicians are usually highly corrupted and big liars! :(

IBF makes no exception unfortunately... :(

[Loh]

Excerpts from reports dated Jan 24, 2006:

by Cubby Leong of Singapore's "Today":

Speaking to Today last September, IBF deputy president Punch Gunalan claimed he was in favour of a 21-point system as he wanted the sport to be more television friendly. When contacted yesterday, Gunalan said the 21-point system is not a shoo-in. It will be tested out in various tournaments over the next four months, including at the Commonwealth Games (March 15-26). It is in the experimental phase and everyone is keen to see how it pans out. IBF will meet in Tokyo in May to deliberate over what they've seen over the 4 months. The final decision will be made solely with the idea of bringing the game forward.

SBA technical director Zheng Qingjin is currently working with his (Singapore) players to get everyone adjusted to the new scoring format. He said the IBF came up with the decision purely for commercial reasons and he is very supportive of the move. He thinks it's a possible way to reinvent the game.

Zheng further commented that fitness will no longer he held in as high regard as before because match time has shrunk. Speed and mental strength will also take on a new meaning because everything happens so quickly. And the serve is more important than ever before because if you foul, you immediately lose a point.

Kendrick Lee, 21, Singapore's current No.1 player says he personally thinks his game is more suited to the 15-point system. There are good and bad points to the 21-point system. Everything will happen so quickly, advantages will be lost in a flash and points will be won in a flash.

by Rajes Paul of Malaysia's "The Star":

Chief coach Yap Kim Hock told his players to look ahead to the new challenges under the new scoring format. Now, the focus should be on adapting to the new system. There will be changes to our training programmes to adapt to the change. The pace of the game will be faster. The players must be psychologically stronger to excel under this new format which would put everyone (every country including China) on en equal footing. For a start, it will be a more open game.

On Feb 11, the Star reported Mohd Hafiz Hashim's comments on the new scoring system:

Hafiz is the only men's singles player in the Malaysian team to have played under the new scoring format - at the World Cup in Yiyang,China.

Despite his dislike for the new format, he is determined to master it.

"For me, the new format has robbed the art of badminton. Anyway, the format is good for new players and those with an attacking style of play. I will be out to adjust to it."

[taneepak]

On Feb 11, the Star reported Mohd Hafiz Hashim's comments on the new scoring system:

Hafiz is the only men's singles player in the Malaysian team to have played under the new scoring format - at the World Cup in Yiyang,China.

Despite his dislike for the new format, he is determined to master it.

"For me, the new format has robbed the art of badminton. Anyway, the format is good for new players and those with an attacking style of play. I will be out to adjust to it."

Isn't Hafiz an attacking style player? He is very good with high shots but not so good with low shots.

[Loh]

Isn't Hafiz an attacking style player? He is very good with high shots but not so good with low shots.

Maybe he's taken on the mould of Misbun lately. :D

Well actually I consider Hafiz good with overheads as he is quite tall, including his smash. But he appears lazy and slow moving. But on his good day, he can surprise as he did when he unexpectedly claimed the AE crown not too long ago. :cool:

[twobeer]

Isn't Hafiz an attacking style player? He is very good with high shots but not so good with low shots.

Actually i think its a missconcepton that 21 rally scoring would be beneficial for attacking style players... with rally scoring.. playing it "safe" would probably be of more importance, game-tactic-wise than going for the lines and trying to hit winners... Most likely the most boring players (to watch) have the most to gain from rally scoring!!!

/T

[seven]

Isn't Hafiz an attacking style player? He is very good with high shots but not so good with low shots.

More of a counter-attacking player isn't he?

[White_Gemini91]

If you are talking about some people that is.. the 'little' umpires still get confused for umpiring doubles and mix doubles games... as you know that the umpire scores as well right? the linesman also does the scoring so i think there is a pressure on if the scores were different, and dont know which one is the right one.. because people STILL get mixed up about how they score with the new and old scoring system, being "mixed" together and cause confusion.