Question to those fortunate to have seen Tang Xian Hu playing :

Do you see similarity in strokes production,physical build,court

movement and style ? In other words is Xia's game modelled

after Tang (minus the endurance part of course).

Bbn, send me some tapes of TXU, then i will talk XXZ vs. TXU with you all day. :)

Kwun if ever I get tapes of Tang Xian Hu it will be like

discovering the 8th wonder of the world.

I've already made some headway in reviving footage of Rudy

Hartono's great moments. At this moment they are checking

the 20-30 year old tapes to see if they are in working

condition.

In Tang's case only China BA and China Television have

records.Perhaps you can try the China website, I'm sure

some tapes may have been releaed long ago but they have not

been re-issued.There are quite a few of Li Fu Rong in the 70's

readily available in a co. called PHILCON.COM.

Let me know if you have any success.

thought li fu rong was a table tennis player?

Right. Anyway this vcd co in China called Fook something or

Philcon (www.philcon.cn) produces a series of 10 vcd's of

famous table tennis stars demonstrating techniques and

includes footages of thier great wins.In addition the China TT

association has produced a set of vcd's (10 in a series)

documenting Chinese TT history from 1950's to 80's.

Now if only they can be convinced to do the same for

badminton, we may finally get the chance to see Tang and Hou

in action.

It takes me a long time to figure out who Tang Xian Hu was. He was the Chinese Indonesian who moved back to China and helped develop the sport in China. I watched him on TV a few times while the Chinese badminton team visited Hong Kong. I was just an elementary school kid. He is also Xia's coach. I thought a lot of commentator already said Xia is coping Tang's game.

Sorry I mixed up. Tang is JI Xinpeng's coach, not Xia's coash.

yes. it would be nice for the China BA to do that. it would be a great way to promote badminton in China or anywhere else in the world. do we have anybody here who has connection to them?

Think may be useful if someone get in touch with the posters at some chinese badminton forum.

For starters, try contacting this guy(?) at bmfuny@163.net who seems to have quite a few 1980 and 1990s matches on VCDs like Han Jian/Frost 1985 WC etc. I came across his listing on a chinese website so may have to contact him in mandarin (but try english anyway).

I have not seen Tang in action but recall elders calling him The Thing when I was a younger man. Not sure why that name but unbeaten in international matches (regardless of the lack of matches for prc) from 1963-1975 is something else.

Also not sure why he is called the Thing - probably as powerful as the Thing in the Fantastic 4??. Back then the media in China referred to a 'Tiger' and a 'Monkey' in badminton: Tang Xian Fu and Hou Jia Chang. Tiger because of power and Monkey because of agility. In their prime, Tang only lost to Hou and Hou also only lost to Tang. It seemed that during that time, not a single player in the world could match them.

Tang Xian Fu went to Denmark in 1966 (??) with Chinese badminton team and beat the then Danish (also All England Champion??) Erland Kops in 2 straight sets. Erland Kops was so convincingly beaten that had a photo of Tang enlarged to life size and hung in his office - so the news said. Another famous player Punch Gunalan, once asked to name the all time best player in his opinion and he said 'Tang Xian Fu'. If not in mistake he reminded the interviewer that he also played against Rudy Hartono.

Now, comparing Xia to Tang - I would borrow a comment from Platini, the famous French football player when asked to compare another famous French player to Maradona : what Zidane could do with a ball Maradona can do the same with an orange. To me, there's simply no comparison.

Tang is in a of his own. Is not every player is regarded as 'all time greatest player' or the 'most perfect badminton player ever'.

This is a real nostagic....Let us put this into perspective, after beating Indonesia ( incl Rudy Hartona, Muljadi, Sonneville) to win Thomas Cup. Malaysian team did visit China for a tour of friendly matches. It was a white washed, though I remember Malaysia did win few games from Ng Boon Bee/Tan Yee Khan ( one of the greats by the way).

Tang and Hou ( they were always mentioned in pair by press !) beat Malaysia's best and world class single players in the tour like Tan Aik Huang,Yew Cheng Hoe, Punch Gunalan. It was greeted with shocks in Malaysia's (results were front paged ), after overcoming the initial shocks, the badminton world learned and praised the talents of Tang & Hou and the # 3 Fang.

Tang & Hou did not not compete in open tournements like All England, and never played against top Indonesia players due to political reason - but it was assessed at that time (late 60 and early 70) that they were much better players than Rudy Hartono.

That was a golden era (you tend to biase with the era that you were growing up );with great single players like Kops, Pri, Delf, Aik-Huang, Muljadi, Hartono, Sooneville,Channanrong and Gunala to name a few. Unfortunetely Tan & Hou did not compete against them in the Open tournements..

As far as I know Tang and Hou did not play them in tournaments organized under IBF. They played in friendlies, invitationals and tournaments organized by the then World Badminton Organization(not sure if that was the organization name??) where many Asian countries were also members.

My opinion is that current players skills still do not match Tang, Hou or even Hartono. It's true that many things improved, from training methods to equipment materials. But does that mean that you have better quality players?

China is seen as a players' 'factory'. Players are mass produced and you can see similar patterns in players style. Logically current Chinese players skills should be better than their predecessors. But from my limited knowledge, recent players like Ji, Xia, Sun, Dong, Chen Gang, etc did not reach the level of the players of the 80's.

We can see that there are many excellent badminton players. And as always great players appear and will later be replaced by another great player. There will always be discussions on who is the 'all time greatest' and it will never be pacific. As for me, I have watched Tang, Hou, Hartono, Prakash, Liem, Zhao, YY, Frost, Gade, etc and think that Tang is the better one. For once, his power, speed you can find similar players. For technical skills (offensive, defensive and dividing these into power and fine categories) - racquet skills and footwork he is still unmatched.

One thing that has definately changed is the pace of the modern game. It's so much faster than 20 years ago.
Can a faster game 'allow' the expression of so many elaborate skills?

Sun and Gade (IMO) are the best in recent years because of their ability to 'think' on court. For Gade, it's a pity he gets nervous on the final big games. For Sun, it was a shame he had those injury problems.

The pace of the game is changed but mostly to non Asian players. If you compare older generation of non Asian players you'll notice that they play at a different pace. However this is changing and Gade and C Martin are a good examples.

From what I've been able to watch up to now I do not see or any new changes in techniques. Of course I could be wrong but seems that basics that I've learned are still applicable.

Dong Jiong and Sun Jun when I first watched them play, both played at a very high pace. Even when under pressure their returns were also at high pace - say returning the shuttle with underhand in FH side, they would hit flatter return, similar to an attacking clear. In short, there were not varying the pace of their game and were in a way predictable. Later they changed their game but... Sun Jun I think that basics are not as strong as his predecessors. Think his footwork is not as good but he is really quick. He could be out of position or not well positioned to receive a shot, but he was able to fix and change very quickly. But this also has a toll on your strength and stamina. Similar to receiving a anticipated shot versus reacting to an unexpected one.

Take an example, watch last year's All England game between Gopichand and Gade. I think Gopichand played a very high quality game. He moved Gade around and did not allow him to play his usual attacking game. To be able to do this, Gopichand must have an exceptional stroke (really hard to tell from video pictures), confusing his opponent and not allowing him to anticipate what stroke he is going to hit. Ellaborate or not, it worked for him.

When I watched Tang play, his strokes and footwork were very very quick. Watching in a position that had him in front, his movements were incredibly fast. His movements were not deceptive, so to speak. They were fast, sometimes so fast that I did not even see the racquet movement. His movements were so coordinated and smooth - can't tell if he is going to clear, smash or drop. Hard to explain here. Only wished the video cameras were as common as today.

point taken but its probably also true that there were a greater variety of playing styles in the past. imho its easier to have a more dynamic game (though no less easy to master) than it is to have a all court game of han jian and frost. i doubt racquet technology in badminton has the same impact as that in tennis where a "slower" game is virtually gone (except for clay courts).

a faster game imo clearly can accommodate a wide range of skills if the player has the ability to pull it off. the mark of a great player (singles or doubles at that) is his/her ability to vary the pace and change his tactics accordingly during the match.

viver mentioned gopi's variations and deception giving gade some trouble in the 2001 AE. lol, i wonder how gade would have cope with prakash wiping his perspiration.

Wow ...

How I wish I ever had the chance to see them then ..

Unfortunately, the earliest 'Great' player I've ever seen on TV or live was Han Jian in the 80's. And then came along players like Frost, Sugiarto, Misbun Sidek, Yang Yang, Xiong Guobao, Zhao Jianhua, Ardy, Joko etc, etc ....

Of the lot to date, I still consider Zhao to be the consumate 'Wizard' on the court. With the most natural gift for the game and the greatest range of shots as well as deception. He had tremendous pace and power too.

But unfortunately he lacked the consistency. Or I would put as 'motivation'...

I watched Prakash play before. I had posted before a match between him and Chen Tianlong from China. It was clear that Chen was technically better but Prakash was a really intelligent (crafty??) on court. He beat Chen using his perspiration.

From what I've watched, I think Gopichand is more dangerous than Prakash. He should be taller than Prakash, seems to move faster and have a more powerful smash. If he plays consistently this way he should be a serious contender for #1 spot, I think.

Other players I think that could also be strong contenders are the youngsters from China: Lin Dan and Bao ChunLai. Watched only a clip of few seconds here the game they played in Danish Open. It seemed to me these 2 guys have really good skills - racquet and footwork. Probably are the players to watch in the near future.

I respectfully disagree about gopi being more dangerous than prakash. IMHO from what i've seen, prakash has a far better all round game and a better fighting spirit. i get the sense that gopi will let the game go if shots/calls are not going his way. this may be a sign of his immaturity which he'll improve with experience but he has a little way to go.

agree about lin dan which i think will be no 1 fairly soon if he continues to improve and mature. he's probably oe of best talents to emerge from china in years and a lefty!

This is the first time I saw Gopichand play and was impressed by the way he played. As I said, if he is able to play consistently the way he played against Gade...

I've seen Prakash play before, live and on TV. I would agree that he is a very good player, to be all round, in my opinion he needed a stronger smash. In the few games I watched him play he mostly plays the 4 corners and uses very expertly the half smashes to unsettle his opponents. I don't recall him using smash and net play to win points. Think even that game, Japan Open (82??) where he played Han Jian, also same strategy. No (don't remember any) hard smashes and won the match. And of course he is a master tactician on court. He knows a lot of ways to make you lose focus during the game.

Gopichand plays a style very similar to Prakash. My thinking about him being more dangerous than Prakash is due to his height, apparently physically stronger, moves faster and have a harder smash. But you could be right about Prakash's fighting spirit. Don't recall he ever gave up fighting however strong his opponent was.

One thing I remember Prakash very well is because my best friend resembles him a lot. I was with him in Guanzhou to watch a friendly between China and Denmark back in early 80's. We were watching the Danish team practice. Chinese players and coaches were close by also watching and they looked at our direction and smiled. Later my coach came told us that they thought Prakash (my friend) was also there watching.

Last night, I asked the the old coach at one of the places I play about Tang.

He said Tang was very strong and was a good thinker. On one tour, Tang played Sven Pri and Pri didn't get a point.

So I asked the coach did he know Tang well. His reply was "Oh yes. We played doubles together in the China Nationals in 1964. Came 2nd place."!

The coach's name is Cheung Chu Sing. He says he played for Indonesia in 1958 Thomas Cup.......

I stopped follow up with badminton around late 70, and when Morten Frost dominated the single play ! and lately I started again simply because my 10 year old son is now as crazy as I used to...These are what I observed :
1. The stamina, speed and strength of current players have improved tremendously.
2. The skill, tactics and technique of single plays seemed to stay flat since 70.
I believe the trend will be the continuing progress in the area of speed and strength dominated by Chinese players. The rest are catching up.

One of the regrets in Badminton history was Tang and Hou did not compete in open tournements. Returning to my previous observation, I believe after Malaysian tours in China; Tang, Hou and Fan did remark (respect and politness may be but there were some truths to it) Malaysian players, especially Tan Aik Huang, had a better skill and technique in comparison but stamina, speed and strength of Tang and Hou won the games. My personal believe Tang and Hou had set the standard of stamina, speed and strength of badminton plays for not only the Chinese players but later badminton community as a whole when chinese players were admitted to open tournements - that is their legacy.

Checked old magazines, Thomas cup 1958 team includes :

Ferry Sonneville, Eddy Yusuff,Tan Joe Hock, Lie Po Djian,

Tan King Gwan, Njoo Kiem Bie and reserves Thio Chu Djen

and Tan Thiam Beng.

Maybe one of those called up for training but never made the

cut.

On second thought Cheung Chu Sing translated from cantonese to Fujian/Teochew reads as Thio Chu Sing not Thio Chu Djen, maybe you got his last name wrong.

I remember one coach of similar name, back in the early 80's coaching at Recreio Club. He was Indonesian wa kio in his 40's as far as I know. Not sure is same one.

Did I get the name wrong? I'm not sure. I forgot to ask him his Indonesian name as well. Silly of me.

This person was recorded as aged 21 in 1958 so he should be about 65 now.

That's about right. He said he was 27 in 1964. Tang is 3 years younger.

Too true,

My coach Dominic Soong was one of the Malaysian players on the tour and he remembers it well. The Singles were destroyed, but doubles won most of their games. At the time (perhaps still) the Chinese doubles was not very advanced. "Two players playing half court singles" was how he put it. He lent me a book that described the contest.

I'll have to ask him more and see if there is anything interesting to report.


This is a real nostagic....Let us put this into perspective, after beating Indonesia ( incl Rudy Hartona, Muljadi, Sonneville) to win Thomas Cup. Malaysian team did visit China for a tour of friendly matches. It was a white washed, though I remember Malaysia did win few games from Ng Boon Bee/Tan Yee Khan ( one of the greats by the way).

Tang and Hou ( they were always mentioned in pair by press !) beat Malaysia's best and world class single players in the tour like Tan Aik Huang,Yew Cheng Hoe, Punch Gunalan. It was greeted with shocks in Malaysia's (results were front paged ), after overcoming the initial shocks, the badminton world learned and praised the talents of Tang & Hou and the # 3 Fang.

Tang & Hou did not not compete in open tournements like All England, and never played against top Indonesia players due to political reason - but it was assessed at that time (late 60 and early 70) that they were much better players than Rudy Hartono.

That was a golden era (you tend to biase with the era that you were growing up );with great single players like Kops, Pri, Delf, Aik-Huang, Muljadi, Hartono, Sooneville,Channanrong and Gunala to name a few. Unfortunetely Tan & Hou did not compete against them in the Open tournements..

Tang , Hou and Fang were / and still are Indonesians at heart,.Just think what a team Indonesia were by dominating world badminton with their 2nd stringers in the 60s and 70s if you think Tang,Hou and Fang ought to be Indonesia's best but were exiled to CHina.

Anyway, Tang was called the Thing because his name in Hokkien or Teochiew is Thing Hien Hiow Spelled and pronounced with Dutch convention.

Tang and Fang went back to Indonesia. Fang is still there.

i thought Tang Xianhu is part of the China coaching team now? then who is the old (not in a disrespectful way) guy always beside Li Yongbo?

Tang Xian Hu, was indeed a chinese player who is born in Indonesia. Many people see him as the best player ever. His Indonesian name was Ting Yong How, I do not know if I spel it correctly but that was how it was pronounced... Stil if Chinese players see him they make a big bow out of respect. When Flemming Delfs was World Champion he came to China for friendly matches. Tang was already 38, and he won 15-3 15-3. I know this story from my coach, Leo Kountul, who has been in the Thomas Cup Selection. He told me that it was the best player he ever saw, way better than Zhao. Does anyone have material from him? I would like to see that!

Tang Xian Hu, was indeed a chinese player who is born in Indonesia. Many people see him as the best player ever. His Indonesian name was Ting Yong How, I do not know if I spel it correctly but that was how it was pronounced... Stil if Chinese players see him they make a big bow out of respect. When Flemming Delfs was World Champion he came to China for friendly matches. Tang was already 38, and he won 15-3 15-3. I know this story from my coach, Leo Kountul, who has been in the Thomas Cup Selection. He told me that it was the best player he ever saw, way better than Zhao. Does anyone have material from him? I would like to see that!

ZJH and Thing played in different eras...I have never seen the Thing played competitively and the videos of him is blurr, short and nothing special but I know he was recognized as a living legend in baddy circle..but to say 'way better than ZJH', I can't say that nor can I agree with your coach...I have watched a lot of great baddy players played the game from a lad in MAS to a soon to be geezer now in Canada, baddy is always played the way I envision until ZJH in 1990 AE, I have never seen anyone play baddy that way, I was totally in awe, he transform the way baddy played, and of course I am a fan of his. Todate, I have yet to see anyone dominate a game like ZJH did in AE90...every play you can conjure of or imagined was displayed in that one game almost flawlessly against INA top player in the final of AE which at that time was the biggest title to win...most players would be nervous and cautious but not ZJH...I would say ZJH is the best player I have ever seen.

Tang Xian Hu, was indeed a chinese player who is born in Indonesia. Many people see him as the best player ever. His Indonesian name was Ting Yong How, I do not know if I spel it correctly but that was how it was pronounced... Stil if Chinese players see him they make a big bow out of respect. When Flemming Delfs was World Champion he came to China for friendly matches. Tang was already 38, and he won 15-3 15-3. I know this story from my coach, Leo Kountul, who has been in the Thomas Cup Selection. He told me that it was the best player he ever saw, way better than Zhao. Does anyone have material from him? I would like to see that!

I believe there would not be much material by Tang Xianhu available on the internet. There should be a book on badminton techniques by him, published in the 90's in Chinese.

... Todate, I have yet to see anyone dominate a game like ZJH did in AE90...

In 1965 (or 1966) China sent a delegation to Denmark that included Tang Xianhu and Fang Kaixiang. Erland Kops was the All England MS champion.

In the first encounter Erland Kops was defeated by Fang Kaixiang. Erland Kops was not ready in the first match, so he asked to play the best Chinese player on the second encounter which was held in a different city. Tang Xianhu played this match and beat Erland Kops in 2 sets - 15-0 and 15-5.

When Denmark visited China for retribution matches, Tang Xianhu beat Svend Pri in 2 sets - 15-0 and 15-2.

Granted that these matches were not played in a tournament setting, but I can't see stronger domination than in the 60's by Chinese MS players. The Chinese MS players at that time - Tang Xianhu, Hou Jiachang, Fang Kaichang and Chen Tianchang - any of them was capable of beating the reigning All-England champion.

Can any country today any 3 national team players able to beat the current AE champion?

In 1965 (or 1966) China sent a delegation to Denmark that included Tang Xianhu and Fang Kaixiang. Erland Kops was the All England MS champion.

In the first encounter Erland Kops was defeated by Fang Kaixiang. Erland Kops was not ready in the first match, so he asked to play the best Chinese player on the second encounter which was held in a different city. Tang Xianhu played this match and beat Erland Kops in 2 sets - 15-0 and 15-5.

When Denmark visited China for retribution matches, Tang Xianhu beat Svend Pri in 2 sets - 15-0 and 15-2.

Granted that these matches were not played in a tournament setting, but I can't see stronger domination than in the 60's by Chinese MS players. The Chinese MS players at that time - Tang Xianhu, Hou Jiachang, Fang Kaichang and Chen Tianchang - any of them was capable of beating the reigning All-England champion.

Can any country today any 3 national team players able to beat the current AE champion?

On that note, I do agree with you...because I had seen Pri played live many times in Stadium Negara against Rudy/Aik Huang and Punch and if Tang and Fang could butcher Pri with those score, that is a rout...maybe I should word it to say "todate I have yet to actually see on video or live matches anyone dominate and play a flawless game as ZJH did.
I had actually heard a lot of stories when I was a lad in MAS about the prowess of Tang and Hou but since I have never seen them play and there was no TV broadcast at that time, it is hard to picture, except from hearsay, how great they are...but thanks to video, we were able to see ZJH play in AE90 and I was so taken aback by ZJH display in that one game.

On that note, I do agree with you...because I had seen Pri played live many times in Stadium Negara against Rudy/Aik Huang and Punch and if Tang and Fang could butcher Pri with those score, that is a rout...maybe I should word it to say "todate I have yet to actually see on video or live matches anyone dominate and play a flawless game as ZJH did.
I had actually heard a lot of stories when I was a lad in MAS about the prowess of Tang and Hou but since I have never seen them play and there was no TV broadcast at that time, it is hard to picture, except from hearsay, how great they are...but thanks to video, we were able to see ZJH play in AE90 and I was so taken aback by ZJH display in that one game.

That would be quite difficult. Maybe China State Television might still have recordings of Tang and Hou playing. I remember when young watching documentaries produced by China featuring the sports achievements in badminton, table tennis, etc... :)

I do agree with you about the ZJH vs Joko Suprianto's AE final. The skills displayed by ZJH was simply awesome. And to think that Joko Suprianto was under Tang Xianhu at that time....

That would be quite difficult. Maybe China State Television might still have recordings of Tang and Hou playing. I remember when young watching documentaries produced by China featuring the sports achievements in badminton, table tennis, etc... :)

I do agree with you about the ZJH vs Joko Suprianto's AE final. The skills displayed by ZJH was simply awesome. And to think that Joko Suprianto was under Tang Xianhu at that time....

Even if videos of Tang and Hou exists, the resolution and quality may not do justice to how good they are...maybe we leave it as that both these guys are the best at their time based on collective agreement of fans and BCers, and until someone plays a game as incredible as ZJH, then we can revisit this topic. I have to confess I am bias on ZJH, the first time I seen him play was AE90, prior to that I do not even know who he is, having not play or keep in touch with baddy for over 2 decades, AE90 I must have seen that video over and over again, so much so I can almost (not quite yet;)) memorize all his moves but my body would not cooperate...darn!:p:D

Even if videos of Tang and Hou exists, the resolution and quality may not do justice to how good they are...maybe we leave it as that both these guys are the best at their time based on collective agreement of fans and BCers, and until someone plays a game as incredible as ZJH, then we can revisit this topic. I have to confess I am bias on ZJH, the first time I seen him play was AE90, prior to that I do not even know who he is, having not play or keep in touch with baddy for over 2 decades, AE90 I must have seen that video over and over again, so much so I can almost (not quite yet;)) memorize all his moves but my body would not cooperate...darn!:p:D

I do not have any problem with that as I also think he is one of the greatest player I have ever seen. But I have my own bias - Tang Xianhu is THE greatest. :D

..any more similarities or differences between Xia Xuanze and Tang Xianhu??..:confused:

..any more similarities or differences between Xia Xuanze and Tang Xianhu??..:confused:

Hmm... They are similar in height. Playing style maybe Lin Dan's current playing style resembles Tang's style.