21-point system PASSED by IBF AGM!!!

[cxytdn]

世界羽坛迈出改革大步伐 21分制正式淘汰15分制

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http://sports.sina.com.cn 2006年05月06日11:36 新华网

　　新华网东京5月6日电(记者梁金雄、张华)国际羽联年度代表大会6日在东京举行，经国际羽联全体会员代 表投票通过，决定废除使用了几十年的15分换发球得分制，并正式启用21分每球得分制。

　　由于从明年5月起将展开北京奥运会的资格赛，因此国际羽联的这一决定意味着两年后在北京奥运会羽毛球赛 场上将采用21分每球得分制。

　　有着逾百年历史的羽毛球运动14年前成为奥运大家庭一员后呈现出前所未有的发展势头，但参赛国家和地区 少和比赛时间长等“老毛病”一直困扰着该项运动的可持续发展，也面临着有可能被挤出奥运大家庭 的危机。

　　为了鼓励更多的国家和地区开展羽毛球运动的积极性以及缩短比赛时间、吸引观众、开拓市场和有利电视转播 ，去年底国际羽联决定从今年2月起试行每球得分的21分为一局的三局两胜新赛制，试行期仅3个月。3个月来 ，21分制的规律虽然还没有被各队所掌握，但它的偶然性和“抑强扶弱”的特点在汤尤杯比赛中已体现出来，如 尤伯杯赛四强中没了老面孔韩国队，并首次出现了德国和中国台北队，荷兰队甚至历史性地首次打进了决赛。(完 )

[Tsumaranai]

Care to translate? So the 21 pt rally system is now official?

[alloh]

Yes. the 15 pts is confirm waived.

[kwun]

not much new in the article. except that they voted to accept the 21pt system as a permanent measure.

not really much of a surprise anyway, it has been well known that all votes have been "negotiated" and the vote was merely just a formality.

[cooler]

now i wonder if local tournaments and recreational play adopt the 21 pt system. I know of no clubs here use the 21 pt system.

[Eurasian =--(O)]

I heard badmintoncanada is changing to the new system after jr nationals at the end of may

[taneepak]

now i wonder if local tournaments and recreational play adopt the 21 pt system. I know of no clubs here use the 21 pt system.

You are not alone. Most players in Hong Kong, except those who play in competitions, do not know about the new system. Most of the coaches swear by the old system and would not want their charges to try out the new system. Some who try it the first time just gave up. It may surprise you that all those I play with have now played with the new system and like it. There were some resistance initially but most of them actually prefer the new system now.
This is still a free world. There is nothing to stop anyone from continuing with the old system. But over the long run you may not be able to find anyone to play with.

[CWB001]

Disappointing but not unexpected news. Nothing on the IBF website, of course.

Does anyone have an English report?

We'll just have to look forward to the next scoring change in a year or two.

Perhaps we can have goals at the ends of the court, after all badminton should prosper if it copies the world's most popular sport.

[taneepak]

Disappointing but not unexpected news. Nothing on the IBF website, of course.

Does anyone have an English report?

We'll just have to look forward to the next scoring change in a year or two.

Perhaps we can have goals at the ends of the court, after all badminton should prosper if it copies the world's most popular sport.

No, the statutes of the IBF would not allow a change in the laws of badminton for at least another 4 years.

[Neil Nicholls]

this 21 point system has been around for 4 years then?

they can start "experimenting" with another new system after any AGM can't they?

[taneepak]

this 21 point system has been around for 4 years then?

they can start "experimenting" with another new system after any AGM can't they?

The statutes say that any law changes can only be tendered for a vote once in every four years. For official trials and experiments there is no such limitation although they must be approved. If there is great urgency to change any badminton law within the 4 years period, then there must be at least a 4/5 majority vote to over-rule this 4 years limitation. The last vote on a law change was in the year 2002. They had to wait 4 years-it is now 2006-to ensure that any change is in compliance with the statutes.

[taneepak]

Disappointing but not unexpected news. Nothing on the IBF website, of course.

Does anyone have an English report?

We'll just have to look forward to the next scoring change in a year or two.

Perhaps we can have goals at the ends of the court, after all badminton should prosper if it copies the world's most popular sport.


There is a possibility to overturn today's IBF decision on the new system. If you feel strongly about this, you could spearhead a legal move to have this thrown out. If you are serious and would go the whole way, I would then suggest a technical way to fight this. But you bear all consequential damages and/or costs.

[Neil Nicholls]

incidentally, was 5x7 only an experiment and not official?

[taneepak]

incidentally, was 5x7 only an experiment and not official?

Until now, the only system I know of that was official was the old 3 x 15 system, with only server winning a rally point. All other systems, including those played in some countries, were not IBF-sanctioned.

[taneepak]

Until now, the only system I know of that was official was the old 3 x 15 system, with only server winning a rally point. All other systems, including those played in some countries, were not IBF-sanctioned.

Sorry, what I wanted to say was that the 3 x 15 system was the only official system, until the adoption of the new 3 x 21 system, that was officially adopted as a law. All other systems, including those used in the 2002 Thomas/Uber Cup matches, were either non-IBF-sanctioned or were IBF-approved/sanctioned for a trial/experiment period, but never made it into the statutes.

[Tomsk]

incidentally, was 5x7 only an experiment and not official?

IIRC 5X7 was officially incorporated into the rules, but the BAofE took the IBF to court and had the decision reversed on some technicality.

[Darth Andrianus]

OMG, this is unbelievable. I have watched several matches with the new scoring system and I still don't see any advantages/excitement over the old system. Now games are going to be way too short for them to be exciting at all.

[philow]

Yeah, I prefer 3 x 15 system too. :crying:
What I see in the 21-point system now, the player that keep smashing and make less mistake mostly will win the match, not much skills needed. :(
So does it means the trend of all players now = fast attacker? :rolleyes:

[bdbc74]

From badminton.de

Rallyepoint counting method of the IBF finally decided
Martin Knupp (6.5.06) (with google_translate)

"With more expectationful tension as the Uber Cup final in the afternoon the IBF Annual general Meeting (AGM) was expected , which took place this morning in the Keio Plaza hotel in Tokyo.

... At point 7 the agenda “Laws of badminton” took place only two word messages. England expressed itself for an extension of the test phase, Denmark articulated skepticism whether the (game)duration to 21 was the the best. But both notes did not even flow into formal requests. Then the tuning took place. Without dissenting votes it was decided that since 1 February with the international tournaments used “Rallyepoint counting method” now formally as official counting method for the badmiton haven applies. ..."

Note that it was no vote against this new system!!!

For germany i dont hear any public debate or consultations about the suitability of the new system till now. In an interview in january this year the president of the german federation said practically that the european countrys have nothing to say on the IBF meetings and that it's nothing what they can do against.

[nugroho]

It is now officially declared that the new system (3x21) will be use for the future event and tournament. IBF on there annual meeting in tokyo this week decided to continue using the new system, rely point 3 x 21 after the whole IBF member vote for this new system.

meanwhile deputy presiden IBF, Datuk Punch Gunalan said that system rely point has a lot of advantages, such as : easier for them to predict how long it will take each game, there wont be any love game (15-0) so it will bost their selfconfidence, and also the new system will help the palyer to keep their fitness.

[samohtom]

I can't believe it...allowing people to score when it's not their serve changes the nature of the game so much. I really hope this doesn't get adopted by clubs, and gets thrown out at asap...

[Double_Player]

so...we can cry and sob now? it's still the same game, although I'm in big favor for the 2x15. the new scoring is stupid and not fun at all, try it, very confusing for double. punch run IBF like his kingdom...

easier to predict? not really. it could be longer it could be shorter, like the old one. but clear rules in doubles has to be established for service verification. do they still change side?

[Cheung]

so...we can cry and sob now? it's still the same game, although I'm in big favor for the 2x15. the new scoring is stupid and not fun at all, try it, very confusing for double. You mean it's difficult to understand gaining a point on each rally?
:eek:

[baddie76]

i suggest that people who do not approve of the new rally system to boycott any tournaments that uses the new system. this is our only chance to fight back.
if ibf is unwilling to listen to the players and the fans, we'll make sure they hear us by not participating in their decision.

this is the headline title posted by the star newspaper in malaysia
IBF to stick with new format despite complaints from top stars
http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2006/5/7/sports/14174288&sec=sports

[taneepak]

i suggest that people who do not approve of the new rally system to boycott any tournaments that uses the new system. this is our only chance to fight back.
if ibf is unwilling to listen to the players and the fans, we'll make sure they hear us by not participating in their decision.

Good idea, but are you so sure you will not end up with only yourself fighting a lost cause? It is human nature for a dissenter to curse and swear at what they don't like, but at the end of the day he becomes part of the new system.

[cabfan]

I think it should be 3X31 rally point system!

3X15 of cause much more better.

[mobee]

21 point system is something similar to the ping-pong scoring system. come on, be original.

really not satisfied with this scoring system. players who are leading by 3-4 points after reaching the 11th point, will most likely win the game. NO EXCITEMENT at all.

bring back the old scoring system. much skills and staminas are needed from the player and not just by avoiding errors to win!

i can still remember those time when a player who was trailing 5-13, eventually won the game not because he is extremely good but because he was focused & determined. this is not possible with the free-for-all scoring system. shame !!! :mad::crying::eek: :confused:

[ctjcad]

meanwhile deputy presiden IBF, Datuk Punch Gunalan said that system rely point has a lot of advantages, such as : easier for them to predict how long it will take each game, there wont be any love game (15-0) so it will bost their selfconfidence, and also the new system will help the palyer to keep their fitness.
hmm, i would like to see a news source which quipped his comments..
As for his reason why the new 21-pt system has a lot advantages:
1. easier for them to predict how long it will take each game : really???..what is that supposed to mean??..what is his point??..don't tell us he is linking this to more ads for tv??..:rolleyes:
2. there wont be any love game (15-0) so it will bost their selfconfidence : errr, i thought Sony Kuncoro almost gave a 0(zero) to his opponent in one of his match in the 2006 TC. Whoop-dee-doo, 1 pt WILL REALLY BOOST a losing player's confidence.:rolleyes:
3. the new system will help the player to keep their fitness : heh?? didn't Mr. Gunalan see how long 2 of the semifinals matches for Uber Cup took place?? one of them almost ran 5 hrs. long??..or the avg of most matches played in the TC??..compare that to the previous scoring system..:rolleyes:

[ctjcad]

i suggest that people who do not approve of the new rally system to boycott any tournaments that uses the new system. this is our only chance to fight back.
if ibf is unwilling to listen to the players and the fans, we'll make sure they hear us by not participating in their decision.

this is the headline title posted by the star newspaper in malaysia
IBF to stick with new format despite complaints from top stars
http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2006/5/7/sports/14174288&sec=sports
seems like that's the only way...Have all the top players joined together and boycott and not play in any IBF sanctioned tournaments and see what IBF will do??..:rolleyes: :p

[taufik-ist]

hmm, i would like to see a news source which quipped his comments..
As for his reason why the new 21-pt system has a lot advantages:
1. easier for them to predict how long it will take each game : really???..what is that supposed to mean??..what is his point??..don't tell us he is linking this to more ads for tv??..:rolleyes:
2. there wont be any love game (15-0) so it will bost their selfconfidence : errr, i thought Sony Kuncoro almost gave a 0(zero) to his opponent in one of his match in the 2006 TC. Whoop-dee-doo, 1 pt WILL REALLY BOOST a losing player's confidence.:rolleyes:
3. the new system will help the player to keep their fitness : heh?? didn't Mr. Gunalan see how long 2 of the semifinals match for Uber Cup took place?? almost 5 hrs. long??..or the avg of most matches played in the TC??..compare that to the previous scoring system..:rolleyes:

what if a player win 21-0 with one servis, that's too long for the player :D

[kanive]

Good idea, but are you so sure you will not end up with only yourself fighting a lost cause? It is human nature for a dissenter to curse and swear at what they don't like, but at the end of the day he becomes part of the new system.

No, I agree with baddie76. He is not alone. In fact, he is in the overwhelming majority of people who don't like the way Punch Gunalan has hijacked this beautiful game. Change that is unpopular with the masses is unsustainable. Just because IBF has voted the way you want, Taneepak, does not make either of you right.

I have said before that I don't mind playing the rally21 recreationally, but no more. I will not cooperate. I will insist on playing with regular scoring. I will avoid tournaments that impose rally scoring. I will stop watching what is shown on TV.

I feel sorry for the pros, who can't afford to boycott IBF events. In good conscience, no one can ask them to do so. It is in the hands of the amateurs and the enthusiasts now to fight back.

[nugroho]

hmm, i would like to see a news source which quipped his comments..
As for his reason why the new 21-pt system has a lot advantages:
1. easier for them to predict how long it will take each game : really???..what is that supposed to mean??..what is his point??..don't tell us he is linking this to more ads for tv??..:rolleyes:
2. there wont be any love game (15-0) so it will bost their selfconfidence : errr, i thought Sony Kuncoro almost gave a 0(zero) to his opponent in one of his match in the 2006 TC. Whoop-dee-doo, 1 pt WILL REALLY BOOST a losing player's confidence.:rolleyes:
3. the new system will help the player to keep their fitness : heh?? didn't Mr. Gunalan see how long 2 of the semifinals matches for Uber Cup took place?? one of them almost ran 5 hrs. long??..or the avg of most matches played in the TC??..compare that to the previous scoring system..:rolleyes:
i red the article from www.antara.co.id (http://www.antara.co.id)
so you should fine it there... i dont like the new system my self, but what can we actually do to change the new rule that has been aproved by a group of people which believed to be this sport organizer...

[baddie76]

Good idea, but are you so sure you will not end up with only yourself fighting a lost cause? It is human nature for a dissenter to curse and swear at what they don't like, but at the end of the day he becomes part of the new system.


Good idea, but are you so sure you will not end up with only yourself fighting a lost cause? It is human nature for a dissenter to curse and swear at what they don't like, but at the end of the day he becomes part of the new system.

This may be an arduous fight, but I am prepared to quit badminton for good if I have to. I would hate to do this, but ultimately I cannot support a sport that's governed by dictators.

On the other note, I am extremely disappointed in USA Badminton. Their memberships have declined over the years and many members wonder what are the perks of joining the organization. They could've used this opportunity to allow active members to vote on the issue. Instead they chose not to notify anybody about the new scoring system being experimented and in the end voted for the for the unpopular system.

I also plea that USA Badminton members who do not approve of the new system not to renew their membership. In addition, notify the organization the reason why you're not renewing your membership.

I think fans and supporters are the key to success in any sports. Badminton is no exception. If we can unite as a group to boycott the decision, there may be a chance that it will be reverted. If you continue to play despite the change, you're telling IBF that they can continue to "screw up" the sport in the future.

[baddie76]

No, I agree with baddie76. He is not alone. In fact, he is in the overwhelming majority of people who don't like the way Punch Gunalan has hijacked this beautiful game. Change that is unpopular with the masses is unsustainable. Just because IBF has voted the way you want, Taneepak, does not make either of you right.

I have said before that I don't mind playing the rally21 recreationally, but no more. I will not cooperate. I will insist on playing with regular scoring. I will avoid tournaments that impose rally scoring. I will stop watching what is shown on TV.

I feel sorry for the pros, who can't afford to boycott IBF events. In good conscience, no one can ask them to do so. It is in the hands of the amateurs and the enthusiasts now to fight back.

btw kanive, i'm a she.

[kanive]

This may be an arduous fight, but I am prepared to quit badminton for good if I have to. I would hate to do this, but ultimately I cannot support a sport that's governed by dictators.

No no, don't quit badminton! That will just make things worse. Better to simply ask whoever you play with to play with the regular system.


Instead they chose not to notify anybody about the new scoring system being experimented and in the end voted for the for the unpopular system.

Why did they do that?! :confused:


I also plea that USA Badminton members who do not approve of the new system not to renew their membership. In addition, notify the organization the reason why you're not renewing your membership.

word.

[twobeer]

So I guess the big question now is what's the best approach to fight the new "approved" "official" rally-scoring?

* Trying to get rid of IBF mgmt?
* Prof.Players boycott (probably wont happen)
* Petitions?
* spectator/viewer boycott?
* Starting an alternative prof. leauge? realistic?
* Asking the big funders (Yonex and other manufacturers) for help to fight IBF-silliness??
* Stop playing badminton (most radical :( )

other options?

[Syaoran_Style]

What a Bad day for Badminton ... We are undergoing rules that we totally reject .. how could we enjoy badminton as before ?!
How a player would be able to catch up his opponent with 10 or more points between them ... so saad :(

[victor makanju]

i think the 21 points,if practised in africa is going to ruin the game for that part of the world,cos we have not achieved long rallies with side out let alone talk of running scores,our play is usually short cos we use nylon shuttlecocks and see feather only at international tournaments,anyway me particularly kinda like the new scoring system.

[ctjcad]

I think fans and supporters are the key to success in any sports. Badminton is no exception. If we can unite as a group to boycott the decision, there may be a chance that it will be reverted. If you continue to play despite the change, you're telling IBF that they can continue to "screw up" the sport in the future.
To be frank and honest, I think it will be *very2 hard* for us badminton fans, fanatics, amateurs and supporters to all of a sudden stop supporting and not attend anymore IBF tournaments..Like nugroho and twobeer said, "what to do"??..
However, IBF players can unite and voice their opinion, but only *IF* they are really serious abt it..
But you are probably correct in your last sentence. By still supporting the new change, it opens up a chance for future "changes", whatever they are, and radical as it may be...:p :rolleyes: :(

[ctjcad]

..i don't know if this thread or topic or question has been brought up in BC forum before or not...i'm just wondering, which scoring system do you guys use now to play??..

[smash_master]

..i don't know if this thread or topic or question has been brought up in BC forum before or not...i'm just wondering, which scoring system do you guys use now to play??..

I have played 2 tournaments with the "old" 15x3 system and then 1 tournament with the "new" 21x3 rally point system...quite frankly I think I did better with the new system than the old one. The new one places more emphisis on consistancy and skill I find.

[Double_Player]

You mean it's difficult to understand gaining a point on each rally?
:eek:
no not that...it's easy to cheat on the point. since u have to keep track a lot of numbers and it's not guessable from the service change. at least I'm speaking about club level with no referee and on honor system i.e. call your own


So about this scoring system, should we not post in the pro player system. but how strong a boycott will be? like the NHL? does pro badminton players have a union that can organized this?

[ctjcad]

I have played 2 tournaments with the "old" 15x3 system and then 1 tournament with the "new" 21x3 rally point system...quite frankly I think I did better with the new system than the old one. The new one places more emphisis on consistancy and skill I find.
smash_master, thx for the reply...well, since you mentioned you feel the "new" scoring system "places more emphasis on consistancy and skill", does that mean, with the "old" scoring system it puts less emphasis on those 2 factors??..how abt the pace of the game??.. :rolleyes:

[Loh]

I can't believe it...allowing people to score when it's not their serve changes the nature of the game so much. I really hope this doesn't get adopted by clubs, and gets thrown out at asap...

Remember this happens to Table Tennis as well and it has been widely accepted!

[Linus]

　　　　有着逾百年历史的羽毛球运动14年前成为奥运大家庭一员后呈现出前所未有的发展势头，但参赛国家和 地区少和比赛时间长等“老毛病”一直困扰着该项运动的可持续发展，也面临着有可能被挤出奥运大 家庭的危机。

　　为了鼓励更多的国家和地区开展羽毛球运动的积极性以及缩短比赛时间、吸引观众、开拓市场和有利电视转播 ，去年底国际羽联决定从今年2月起试行每球得分的21分为一局的三局两胜新赛制，试行期仅3个月。3个月来 ，21分制的规律虽然还没有被各队所掌握，但它的偶然性和“抑强扶弱”的特点在汤尤杯比赛中已体现出来，如 尤伯杯赛四强中没了老面孔韩国队，并首次出现了德国和中国台北队，荷兰队甚至历史性地首次打进了决赛。(完 )

Whilst it is heartening to read the passion and argument presented in this thread by fellow members that are against the new 21 points rally system, we also need to look at the other side of the coin, i.e. from the organizer's point of view. In this regard, I think it is useful if I would translate the last 2 paragraphs of the original article posted by CXYTDN:

***
Badminton, which has a history of over hundred years, has grown significantly since it became an official Olympics sports 14 years ago. However, the same old problems of lacking participating countries and long tournament duration are still persisting and hinder any sustainable longterm development of the sport. This may lead to a potential risk that badminton may be excluded from future Olympic games.

To encourage more countries to participate in and regional development of the sport, as well as reducing tournament duration, attracting more spectators, opening new markets and benefit TV broadcasting; the IBF had decided last year to adopt the new best-of-three 21-points rally system from February 2006, for a trial period of 3 months. In these 3 months, although not every team has familiarised themselves with the new scoring system, it (the new scoring system) does reveal its characteristics of "high chance of upset" and in "helping the weaker team and restrint on the stronger team" in the current Uber and Thomas Cup tournament. For example, Korea has been excluded from the last 4 in the Uber Cup, replaced by German and Chinese Taipei for the first time; not to mention Holland making her historical debut in the final.
***

So it is of no secret from IBF that they made their decision purely from a commercial angle. Putting aside our preference of 3x15 or 3x21, we cannot deny the fact that in order to attract big money and more live TV coverage on this game, those factors mentioned by IBF (which I highlighted in red) are keys. We cannot on one hand wanted the sports to gain more and wider recongnition and popular, but on the other ignore the commercial appealing factors that it has on the potential sponsor.

In the old days, I recalled a major competition like TC or AE finals could last more than 5 hours. In the modern era when air times are at such a premium, this must be a nightmare for any organiser to sell the broadcasting right and say that it will last somewhere between 2 hours to 6 hours. It is just quite impossible. With 3x21, the duration is much more predictable.

I agreed with what most of you who said that in 3x21, once you are behind by 5-6 points, it is quite difficult to come back and that take away the element of suspence and thrill of seeing a great come-from-behind victory. But if, in any way, the old scoring system is starting threatening the survival of our beloved sport in this commercial world, should we not give and take a little?

For better or for worse, other sports are changing too. The other "serve-to-win-point" sport, i.e. Volleyball, has also gone into rally point few years ago. Badminton cannot simply just lag behind.

One thing we all agree is that IBF could have done this in a better and less high-handed way by publicly put forward the challenges they are facing (with facts and figures) as well as the pros and cons of both systems, so that the badminton public (both the competitive and casual players and supporters) could digest this better.

Anyway, the commerical impact and changes are not applicable to casual non-competitive players like many of us here - so there is no stopping us to continue to use the 3x15 systems in our weekly sessions as long as we like.

Cheers :)

[smash_master]

smash_master, thx for the reply...well, since you mentioned you feel the "new" scoring system "places more emphasis on consistancy and skill", does that mean, with the "old" scoring system it puts less emphasis on those 2 factors??..how abt the pace of the game??.. :rolleyes:

Well when you look at it since a point is gained every time a rally ends and since either side can get it you have to make sure that you win it. This does make the consistancy needed more, you have to keep the rally alive longer and force them into make a mistake or to win the rally yourself. This does not mean you cannot use power though. The pace of the game well it doesnt really change just depends on how confident you are in your skill to pull out the big shots. With the older scoring system there is still the same amount of consistancy ad skill needed but the pressure is not as great I feel. Oh well thats just my 2 cents.

[Loh]

So I guess the big question now is what's the best approach to fight the new "approved" "official" rally-scoring?

* Trying to get rid of IBF mgmt?
* Prof.Players boycott (probably wont happen)
* Petitions?
* spectator/viewer boycott?
* Starting an alternative prof. leauge? realistic?
* Asking the big funders (Yonex and other manufacturers) for help to fight IBF-silliness??
* Stop playing badminton (most radical :( )

other options?

Very difficult indeed!

In response to your suggestions:
1. Probably the most effective if you are ambitious enough to first take control of your country's Badminton Assn and then with like-minded comrades in the other member countries capture the IBF Council! :)

2. Yes it is very unreasonable to ask the pros to boycott as it is their livelihood. Furthermore, not every pro hate the new system, some even like it.

3. To have some effect petitions should come from IBF member countries.

4. To obtain boycotts from spectators and viewers is even more difficult as badminton watching is a form of entertainment to them and the intense spectacle is what they want on TV. Too long rallies and matches lasting over an hour or two may make it boring for the viewer/spectator. The new system enables the newcomer understand the scoring better, so it seems.

5. Starting a new league or creating a new organization to rival IBF takes a lot of time, money and resources. Who will want to lead? There were two rival world badminton organizations before but for the good of the game they decided to merge.

6. One reason for the new system appears to be at the request of sponsors to have matches lasting shorter instead of longer so that they could advertise their goods and services through TV commercials.

7. Badminton is our game, for better or for worse. We find joy, entertainment, good exercise, social interaction, etc, in playing the game. Would not be a good idea to stop playing unless you have a better option to spend your time. Amongst our own circle of badminton friends, if we really wanted to remain as before, we can still play the 3x15 system.

8. As for myself, I will continue to play whatever system that is required for that particular occasion. :D

[Loh]

Well when you look at it since a point is gained every time a rally ends and since either side can get it you have to make sure that you win it. This does make the consistancy needed more, you have to keep the rally alive longer and force them into make a mistake or to win the rally yourself. This does not mean you cannot use power though. The pace of the game well it doesnt really change just depends on how confident you are in your skill to pull out the big shots. With the older scoring system there is still the same amount of consistancy ad skill needed but the pressure is not as great I feel. Oh well thats just my 2 cents.

I agree with you.

In the recent Thomas Cup competition, just try to recollect/replay those images, the intensity of the rallies, the mounting attacks and risk taking, the sliced angled shots, subtle net plays and the element of suspense/excitement of the following matches:

1. Lin Dan versus Peter Gade
2. Chan Chong Ming/KKKk versus Jens Eriksen/Martin Lungaard (If I've not forgotten one game went to 29-27, almost the limit of 30 points allowed!)

I suppose the players have to go all out to win at the very start and when they are the first to reach 17 points, they need to bring up their attacks a notch higher. In the words of Lin Dan, "I tried to increase the speed of my shuttle at the last stage of each game".

Their rivals will try to close ithe gap whenever possible, but even the very experienced Danish World No. 1 doubles pair completely lost their concentration in the rubber game to allow the young Malaysians to demolish them. The bubble really burst for the the Danes. Who would have imagined that Malaysia lost all its three singles matches and Denmark, all two of their doubles?

Exciting stuff! :D

[ctjcad]

Some of Linus' post snipped for brevity..
Linus, thanks for your extended explanation of the article.
Actually there's another thread in the Thomas & Uber Cup forum which touched on this subject also..I just want to make some similar comments to your post, if you don't mind..


To encourage more countries to participate in and regional development of the sport, as well as reducing tournament duration, attracting more spectators, opening new markets and benefit TV broadcasting; the IBF had decided last year to adopt the new best-of-three 21-points rally system from February 2006, for a trial period of 3 months. In these 3 months, although not every team has familiarised themselves with the new scoring system, it (the new scoring system) does reveal its characteristics of "high chance of upset" and in "helping the weaker team and restrint on the stronger team" in the current Uber and Thomas Cup tournament. For example, Korea has been excluded from the last 4 in the Uber Cup, replaced by German and Chinese Taipei for the first time; not to mention Holland making her historical debut in the final.
yes, the former is possible. However, as for the latter, i doubt it will happen. Sure, it's true 3 of the 4 Semifinalists, mentioned above, were surprised teams. Their surprised appearances as Semifinalist *could be* related to the new scoring system change. However, at the end, it was no different as China won 3-0 to defend their Cup. As for the Thomas Cup, 4 of the top countries made the Semifinals, as there were no surprises. But at the end China again was able to defend their Cup.


In the old days, I recalled a major competition like TC or AE finals could last more than 5 hours. In the modern era when air times are at such a premium, this must be a nightmare for any organiser to sell the broadcasting right and say that it will last somewhere between 2 hours to 6 hours. It is just quite impossible. With 3x21, the duration is much more predictable.
Don't tell Mr. Gunalan about how long 2 of the UBER Cup Semifinals matches took place..Maybe this will only happen in team events, not so much in individual events, but IMO, i highly doubt the scoring system change will change much of the time duration.


I agreed with what most of you who said that in 3x21, once you are behind by 5-6 points, it is quite difficult to come back and that take away the element of suspence and thrill of seeing a great come-from-behind victory. But if, in any way, the old scoring system is starting threatening the survival of our beloved sport in this commercial world, should we not give and take a little?
Do you think or feel, using the old scoring system was really a "threat" for the survival of badminton in the commercial world??..:rolleyes:

For better or for worse, other sports are changing too. The other "serve-to-win-point" sport, i.e. Volleyball, has also gone into rally point few years ago. Badminton cannot simply just lag behind.
Sure, other sports have "changed" and "evolved" also. But the game of badminton is still what it is. Non-knowledgeable people will still not change their mindset of the game of Badminton. I just feel changing the scoring system again, for the sake of gaining commercialization, wasn't going to be the big "clincher"..

One thing we all agree is that IBF could have done this in a better and less high-handed way by publicly put forward the challenges they are facing (with facts and figures) as well as the pros and cons of both systems, so that the badminton public (both the competitive and casual players and supporters) could digest this better.
Yes, agree and definitely shouldn't have to sacrifice the scoring system. Didn't they attempt the same thing about 4 yrs. ago??..

Anyway, the commerical impact and changes are not applicable to casual non-competitive players like many of us here - so there is no stopping us to continue to use the 3x15 systems in our weekly sessions as long as we like.

Cheers :)
hmm, so what does this mean??..Does this mean, there's now 2-ways to play/score the game?? And that both scoring systems(old and new) are still valid no matter what??..If so, will badminton become the 1st and only sport in the world to have 2 valid and legit scoring systems??..And if this new scoring system is accepted and used for quite sometime and then IBF decides to make another scoring change, will badminton have 3 types of valid and legit scoring systems??..:confused: :rolleyes:

[ctjcad]

Well when you look at it since a point is gained every time a rally ends and since either side can get it you have to make sure that you win it. This does make the consistancy needed more, you have to keep the rally alive longer and force them into make a mistake or to win the rally yourself. This does not mean you cannot use power though. The pace of the game well it doesnt really change just depends on how confident you are in your skill to pull out the big shots. With the older scoring system there is still the same amount of consistancy ad skill needed but the pressure is not as great I feel. Oh well thats just my 2 cents.
hmm, i see...so basically in comparing between the 2 scoring systems, the only difference is, there is more pressure playing with the new scoring system??..how about in terms of freely utilizing and performing your skills and shot selections in trying to get the points, knowing one needs to make less self-error(s)??..

[Linus]

Do you think or feel, using the old scoring system was really a "threat" for the survival of badminton in the commercial world??..:rolleyes:

Replying to CTJCAD:

To be honest, yes I do. It is a fact that for each Olympic there is a continous drive to limit the number of sports to cut cost. Obviously the sports that get included will be the ones that are highly popular and could get the large majority support from the committee members. Not to mention the huge influence some of the major sponsors would have on the decision. If badminton is to only be enjoyed by only with a selected group of countries, then yes it will risk being voted out.

So from this angle, the appearance of German, Holland and Chinese Taipei in the Uber Cup last 4 is a good sign. Yes at the end China won hands down as we have expected, but dont you think just being there, winning Silver and Bronze in a major event like Uber Cup give these countries something to cheer about and indeed some hope for the younger shuttlers back home? I think the result is positive in that way - it give them hope, probably not winning the gold but give the traditional strong teams a good run for their money.

Looking at the major events, the price money is monkey compare to other sports. Name me a major global reconisable corporate name (besides Yonex) that winning to sponsor a major 5 or 6 stars events? Hardly any.

What sustain some of the badminton powerhouses to continue badminton development is the chance to bring national glory in event like Olympic to put the nation name on a world map. I believe there is a fair amount of public money being pump into it relative to commercial sponsorship - in longer term, this may not be sustainable. I cannot imagine what would happen to the body of badminton in the likes of Indonesia, Malaysia (or dare I mention Singapore) if badminton is no longer a event in future Olympic.

I am not saying 3x21 is good, but it does allow badminton to evolve in this commercial driven sports arena. It may even allows it to survive.

Cheers :)

[ctjcad]

Replying to CTJCAD:

To be honest, yes I do. It is a fact that for each Olympic there is a continous drive to limit the number of sports to cut cost. Obviously the sports that get included will be the ones that are highly popular and could get the large majority support from the committee members. Not to mention the huge influence some of the major sponsors would have on the decision. If badminton is to only be enjoyed by only with a selected group of countries, then yes it will risk being voted out.

So from this angle, the appearance of German, Holland and Chinese Taipei in the Uber Cup last 4 is a good sign. Yes at the end China won hands down as we have expected, but dont you think just being there, winning Silver and Bronze in a major event like Uber Cup give these countries something to cheer about and indeed some hope for the younger shuttlers back home? I think the result is positive in that way - it give them hope, probably not winning the gold but give the traditional strong teams a good run for their money.

Looking at the major events, the price money is monkey compare to other sports. Name me a major global reconisable corporate name (besides Yonex) that winning to sponsor a major 5 or 6 stars events? Hardly any.

What sustain some of the badminton powerhouses to continue badminton development is the chance to bring national glory in event like Olympic to put the nation name on a world map. I believe there is a fair amount of public money being pump into it relative to commercial sponsorship - in longer term, this may not be sustainable. I cannot imagine what would happen to the body of badminton in the likes of Indonesia, Malaysia (or dare I mention Singapore) if badminton is no longer a event in future Olympic.

I am not saying 3x21 is good, but it does allow badminton to evolve in this commercial driven sports arena. It may even allows it to survive.

Cheers :)
hmm, fair enough reply...:)
well, we shall see what will be the public's as well as the sponsors' reactions after the World Championship(Spain) this coming September(as that is the next "major event" which IBF will gage the new scoring system)..:rolleyes:

[Linus]

hmm, fair enough reply...:)
well, we shall see what will be the public's as well as the sponsors' reactions after the World Championship(Spain) this coming September(as that is the next "major event" which IBF will gage the new scoring system)..:rolleyes:

Thanks! :p
Yes let's see how this new system goes, and more importantly how IBF, after making the decision to go with this system, is going to sell this to the commercial world and get the long overdue recongnition that badminton is the next "beautiful game" that worth their support.

Hopefully, it is a win-win situation, that the players and the supporters all benefit.:D

[Neil Nicholls]

In the old days, I recalled a major competition like TC or AE finals could last more than 5 hours. In the modern era when air times are at such a premium, this must be a nightmare for any organiser to sell the broadcasting right and say that it will last somewhere between 2 hours to 6 hours. It is just quite impossible.
I don't know about other countries, but in the UK there is more air time available than the TV companies can fill. The main free to air broadcasters in the UK, BBC, ITV and C4 have multiple channels stuffed full of repeats of old shows,
repeats of what was on earlier the same day, repeats of what was on earlier this week, repeats of what was on last week, repeats and more repeats.
Repeats of the weather forecast, where they tell you what the weather was like yesterday.

[jamesd20]

The new system has not been a disaster, and I think it meets the objectives of closely predictable timing, and good excitment levels.

As many people have said, this is not a surprise and not really bad news.

[DutchRion]

nope indeed, we already practise for like 4 months now with the new system, to get used to it..... though i have to admit serve only points are clearly better for me, as i tend to fight back from being far behind, and i am more of an endurance player :D, but it can go either way, i tend to let the opponent make mistakes (which now always gives me points) :D

[Baderz_Jas]

Oh no!!! The new scoring system SUCKS :crying: :mad:
Now they will be using it in our tournaments!!! :( :mad: :crying:

[Tsumaranai]

Oh no!!! The new scoring system SUCKS :crying: :mad:
Now they will be using it in our tournaments!!! :( :mad: :crying:

Yes, I fully concur. From what I've heard, it has brought badminton into a totally different light of less productivity. Although I respect everyone's opinions and the point for commercial aspects and to possibly save its position in the Olympics, it can hardly account for the thousands and millions of people who are dissatisfied with this change. It may be true that it is up to the public's leisure to play with a certain set of rules, official tournaments would involve these [official] 'laws', and many would find playing less enjoyable. The fact that the rules pertain more to the pros than it does us recreational players makes it difficult for some to understand the substantial strain it may put on participants who do not wish to deal with such a radical coversion. But, it is imperative that it is a matter of great importance to the public, even more so than the pros. Point being, if there is no public to support a sport, it will eventually die. And that may or may not be due to the fact that such changes discourage the international fan(atic) community, but it is certainly a pronouncable factor. As for the commercial viewing time and duration of games, I find that since badminton is more so a year-round sport, rather than a seasonal sport, it is harder to find open slots of time, as other more popular(well known) sports would be of higher priority. Besides this, it is up to the IBF to find broadcasting through more convenient means, so that the public does not have to scour for a channel in which to view its media. More air time outside of the Olympics should be brought to more local stations in individual countries. This may be a difficult task, but it is a better goal, than to try to promote a sport through changes unwanted by the majority.

In any case, the change arising with all its controversy, would not matter to those who do not concern themselves with this sport, and therefore, would bring no substantial number of new supporters who'd care. Those who are loyal to the sport and enjoy it with their full capacity would most likely honor this change. But, it is also not to say that those who do not favor this sport BECAUSE of this change are not truly loyal or incompetent. It may just be that they do not want to deal with all the discrepency and poignant offense that it offers. Furthermore, the decision of commercial publicity over public and professional preference/familiarity is an aspect which is well biased.

[ctjcad]

Besides this, it is up to the IBF to find broadcasting through more convenient means, so that the public does not have to scour for a channel in which to view its media. More air time outside of the Olympics should be brought to more local stations in individual countries. This may be a difficult task, but it is a better goal, than to try to promote a sport through changes unwanted by the majority.
Tsumaranai, you brought up a very interesting point...And IMO, it is a very "powerful" approach in promoting the sport...With this said, i was wondering, is it possible if IBF and ESPN/ESPN2 sign somekind of a contract(1-2 yr. is good) to televise live broadcast of IBF "bigger" events?ie. Thomas and Uber Cup, Sudirman Cup, Olympics and World Championships to begin with..Rather than thru broadband web..I mean why can't ESPN broadcast those events live or delayed??..Have it scheduled on ESPN for people to watch, even for 1-2 hrs...For example, i know CNBC did attempt it 2 yrs. ago in the Olympics and last yr's attempt by ESPN to broadcast the World Championship was a good start..Why not continue it further??..BTW, i don't know if anyone noticed, but i noticed in the recent Thomas & Uber Cup, i thought i saw Charmaine Reid doing interviews with players at the end of some matches like she did in last yr's WC, if not sorry, maybe i'm seeing things..:p:rolleyes: :confused:

We all know badminton is already popular in Asia and some part of Europe, but why not have the game exposed more to the U.S. public??...Especially considering a way to popularize the game in the U.S...Imagine us fans living in the U.S./North or South American continent getting a cable broadcast of the Thomas & Uber Cup, rather than thru broadband web??...If for just for 1-2 hrs, let it be, the rating migh start slowly, but it's a start??..I mean, if they can broadcast live poker tournaments, why can't they broadcast badminton(which probably has much more following that poker)??..Isn't U.S. basically the commercial capital of the world and an oasis for badminton to become popular??..:rolleyes:

[DutchRion]

To bad the USA media and sponsors are just not willing to take the step to advocate for badminton, and to put actually money in it (in the form of products and especially TV-shows/matches etc.).... though i hope to see a rise of that!. Though i think badminton looks easier when you see it on the television....but when i stand on the court all i do is wondering how can it look so easy but be so hard ;)

[ants]

Well weather its 3x15 points or 3x21points. It is the rule of the game. We just need to follow it. Things will get more interesting.

[taneepak]

If we review what have been said about the new scoring system in BC, from the beginning to now, the initially negative, very loud, and almost hostile torrent of words against the new system have now become more muted. Do we look a little foolish now?:D Some have even threatened to give up the game. For the life of me, why? Over a mere change in scoring system?:confused: Now that it has been finally decided, let us close ranks and do what we ought to do-continue playing the beautiful game, badminton, but using the new 3 x 21 rally system.

[CWB001]

If we review what have been said about the new scoring system in BC, from the beginning to now, the initially negative, very loud, and almost hostile torrent of words against the new system have now become more muted. Do we look a little foolish now?:D Some have even threatened to give up the game. For the life of me, why? Over a mere change in scoring system?:confused: Now that it has been finally decided, let us close ranks and do what we ought to do-continue playing the beautiful game, badminton, but using the new 3 x 21 rally system.

The only foolish ones are those that swallow what the IBF and Punch say without question.

I'm sorry, but you really do come over as smug, arrogant and patronising. Over-use of the misplaced and badly-chosen smilies does not help. I mean that constructively.

The battle for the scoring system is lost, sadly, and we can now stop arguing and start to worry about the damage it will do to the sport. And, what is worse, what further damage will the incompetents at the top inflict?

Your comment about "a mere change in scoring system" shows that you do not appreciate how this changes the creful checks and balances already built into the game.

[taneepak]

The only foolish ones are those that swallow what the IBF and Punch say without question.

The battle for the scoring system is lost, sadly, and we can now stop arguing and start to worry about the damage it will do to the sport. And, what is worse, what further damage will the incompetents at the top inflict?

On the contrary, I think Punch and the IBF did a fantastic job for the good of the game. Damage to the game, what damage? The 'incompetents' at the top wouldn't be shakers and movers if they were incompetent. I think it is an exciting time for badminton. We can revisit this thread a year from now and do an 'audit' of the new game.

[Loh]

On the contrary, I think Punch and the IBF did a fantastic job for the good of the game. Damage to the game, what damage? The 'incompetents' at the top wouldn't be shakers and movers if they were incompetent. I think it is an exciting time for badminton. We can revisit this thread a year from now and do an 'audit' of the new game.

I must also add that the IBF Council did world badminton a lot of good with the introduction of the new 21 point rally system, despite all the brickbats. It takes a great deal of courage and leadership for the IBF Team, particularly Punch, to come out with such an exhilarating knock-out blow.

At the outset, some badminton stars cursed the new system, some liked it and in the course of the short experimental period, some got more accustomed to it and began to accept it as a matter of course. This is to be expected as any new change will cause unhappiness and destabalize the comfort zone. But in the end, the true professionals will be able to adapt to the change as it affects their livelihood. It is social players like us who are the most discontented and more vocal in our remarks.

As the world team championships in the recent TC and UC have demonstrated, most players performed to expectation and many provided very exciting exchanges on the courts. The top teams did not actually falter and most of us probably got our own predictions correct, saved for the match between Malaysia and Denmark. If skipper Wong Choong Hann had not been injured, it would have even provided a higher climax to that spectacle. But as fortunes would have it, Malaysia lost to a better team in the most unexpected outcome.

Denmark lost both of its highly-rated doubles and only managed to salvage victory through its singles, despite the fact that its 3rd singles was ranked lower than Malaysia's. The final score of 3-2 was the fairest outcome of two finely-contested badminton superpowers. And boy, what great excitement they have provided on TV! And I think the new 21 point rally system must have aided many newcomers to keep up with the proceedings.

Personally, I don't think much damage has been done, if any. On the contrary, I can see more good has resulted and much more will follow. Apart from the heavy IBF schedules during the month of June, the more important challenge will come from the World Championships in Madrid in September. By then, the professionals would have adapted themselves very well to the new system and may surprise us with new moves never seen before. Won't that be delightful?

[Cheung]

The only foolish ones are those that swallow what the IBF and Punch say without question.

I'm sorry, but you really do come over as smug, arrogant and patronising. Over-use of the misplaced and badly-chosen smilies does not help. I mean that constructively.

The battle for the scoring system is lost, sadly, and we can now stop arguing and start to worry about the damage it will do to the sport. And, what is worse, what further damage will the incompetents at the top inflict?

Your comment about "a mere change in scoring system" shows that you do not appreciate how this changes the creful checks and balances already built into the game.I am not convinced of these argments against the scoring system. I know that many people don't want to change. The main impetus for change will be from Associations which will start to implement the scoring system in local tournaments and club matches. Either you as a player adapt and keep playing, or refuse to adapt only to your own detriment.

The sport needs to evolve just as other sports do and have done. As for playing two different scoring systems, tennis must have a bigger variety of scoring systems. They play 3 or 5 sets, 5th set might be a tie break or you have to win by two clear games for that 5th set. As another example of tennis evolving, I see they've done away with the break after the 1st game.

Another consideration is, do we let the feelings of a minority restrict the progress of the game?


All in all, I think if a minority don't want to change to the new system, that's fine with them. But they shouldn't think their personal opinion and preference are necessarily correct. These are the people that will get left behind in the process of change.

IMHO, it doesn't make too much difference. Scoring is simplified - that's great for the casual observer. Games are not shortened by a great amount. Ladies singles have to play longer giving us political correctness. Unpredictability gives the game more of an edge to the unintiated spectator. More importantly, I think it is better than the the 5 x 7 system!!

[kanive]

Another consideration is, do we let the feelings of a minority restrict the progress of the game?

:D:D:D seriously, that is funny!!!


All in all, I think if a minority don't want to change to the new system, that's fine with them. But they shouldn't think their personal opinion and preference are necessarily correct. These are the people that will get left behind in the process of change.


Not to worry, we will keep 3x15 alive until IBF changes back again. We will still be here when you come around in four years admitting that playing rally21 has hurt your stamina, your creativity on court, and has lowered the overall standard of the game. I guess now we have two kinds of badminton, the classical and the simplified. Fine.

[CWB001]

Another consideration is, do we let the feelings of a minority restrict the progress of the game?




Yes, these 80% minorities are a nuisance aren't they? The 20% majority must carry on!

[ctjcad]

I understand from reading all the news and articles, that the "only" main purpose of the S.S.(scoring system) change is for marketability and as Mr. Gunalan has said "to make badminton the #1 racket sport in the world"..And i know our "veteran/senior" members in here (Loh, taneepak, Cheung to name a few) are quite supportive of the S.S. change)
But i wonder, how to make it "popular" if the game is not being televised and broadcast esp. in the U.S. market. Personally, the reason why you see tennis is so "popular" is because it is being broadcast and shown on reg. tv networks/cable networks, esp. here in the U.S.. No matter what kind of rule changes or how many or how drastic a S.S. changes IBF wants to do, i don't think badminton can be as "popular" as it is if it is not being broadcasted and televised on major U.S. networks or cable companies...IMO, that's how the game gets more and more exposure and "popular"..


The sport needs to evolve just as other sports do and have done. As for playing two different scoring systems, tennis must have a bigger variety of scoring systems. They play 3 or 5 sets, 5th set might be a tie break or you have to win by two clear games for that 5th set. As another example of tennis evolving, I see they've done away with the break after the 1st game.
hmm, sure in tennis the S.S. has evolved and can vary with either 3 or 5 sets. Now, i'm not an avid follower of tennis nor am i knowledgeable in the history of S.S. of tennis, but the "basic" element of the S.S. has basically stay roughly the same for quite a long time. Unlike this "drastic" change as we have in the current badminton S.S.(from serve-based to rally based, i think that's quite a change). IMO, IBF can still keep the "old" S.S. of 3x15, but maybe add some break time in between, or maybe not allow a set to occur, just end it at 15. Or something else..?!?!..

Another consideration is, do we let the feelings of a minority restrict the progress of the game?
hmm, if so, if everyone accepts this "new" S.S.(3x21) and it goes on for a while and then IBF changes it again to who knows what kind of S.S. in the future, how will the current people who have embraced the "new"(3x21) S.S. say??..I think the real "progress" of the game is if they finally show these games live or delayed on reg. tv networks or cable networks, esp. in U.S.(just like they did in Olympics and World Championships last yr)..


All in all, I think if a minority don't want to change to the new system, that's fine with them. But they shouldn't think their personal opinion and preference are necessarily correct. These are the people that will get left behind in the process of change.
hmm, i don't think the "minority of people who don't want to change to the new system" think that "their personal opinion and preference are necessarily correct". It is an opinion and rightfully their opinion, just like those "majority" who are supporting the system change have their own opinion. Do you expect all of us baddie fans/supporters to just shake our head in agreement and just follow what is being presented?? Without having any freedom of expression or thought??..I think this is true also of the players, as i know ZN and XXF as well as LD and Taufik do not favor it, not sure if they now change their minds. Peter Gade initially did not favor it, but later changed his mind. I guess the 2 CHN WS and LD, Taufik who are not in favor will "get left behind"??..:rolleyes:


IMHO, it doesn't make too much difference. Scoring is simplified - that's great for the casual observer. Games are not shortened by a great amount. Ladies singles have to play longer giving us political correctness. Unpredictability gives the game more of an edge to the unintiated spectator. More importantly, I think it is better than the the 5 x 7 system!!
Hmm, maybe true to all of those you mentioned..Scoring might be "simplified", but i thought it was "simple" already??..BTW, why was 5x7 abolished so quickly by IBF??..Were you guys who are currently supporting the "new" S.S. change also did not agree with the 5x7 S.S.??..:rolleyes:
I guess time will tell, and we shall wait and see by the time World Championship rolls around and IBF will make another gage of how the public has "embraced" this change and if the game has really grown in "popularity".. :rolleyes:

[twobeer]

If we review what have been said about the new scoring system in BC, from the beginning to now, the initially negative, very loud, and almost hostile torrent of words against the new system have now become more muted. Do we look a little foolish now?:D Some have even threatened to give up the game. For the life of me, why? Over a mere change in scoring system?:confused: Now that it has been finally decided, let us close ranks and do what we ought to do-continue playing the beautiful game, badminton, but using the new 3 x 21 rally system.

Just because the IBF council made the 21x3 official, doesn't make it any better.

It's still a sissifying of the game we love, and WON'T lead to ANY increased TV-airtime or postive effects compared to what IBF could achieve with the traditional 15x3 scoring.

It's even logical to argue that shorter games most likely lead to less air-time (compared to longer games).

we all know that a majority of this forum prefers 15x3 scoring, so why should we "close ranks" and support something that isnt good

Next step will be Punch introducing Mavis 350 plastic shuttels as official tournament shuttles.. and get this trough the IBF council... I guess you suggest we should "close ranks" and promote this "new fresh badminton game" with plastics and so on..

Just becuase some older over-the-hill managers of an organisations thinks something is right..doesn't make it "right"...

And knowing something is very wrong and still not trying to do anything about it.. isn't good.... History has proven that on many occasions..

So my main concern would be how to make IBF revert back to 15x3. Maybe it has to wait until they/we get rid of Punch.. Or maybe Punch will get wiser when he vakes up a year from know realizing that the score change wasn't the holy grail that made badminton popularity grow exponetially through the roof!!!

It feels frustrating that a small number of people in the badminton world pushes through rule changes that they know a large mjority of players doesn't want or outright oppose!!

Personally I am starting to think badminton needs something new instead of IBF.. It seems like IBF is doing more harm than good to the sport.. (little marketing, poor web presense, stupid rule changes, internal corruption, limited sponsorship and prize money etc etc)... Maybe IBF IS the PROBLEM!!

/Twobeer

[maa2003]

with this system, no more typical player with stamina and endurance.
only players with killing smash will win.

you can not find anymore player as like Icuk Sugiarto with phantom badminton ....

Taufik can beat Lin Dan due to his very strong stamina and endurance, when it came to rally point, just "ampun" (= my goodness) from Taufik's mouth.

I played mostly double ......... so with this system :
- no more 2nd serve
- serve can be done from "left"
very headache ........ but have to try ......

[Tsumaranai]

Where everyone is getting it wrong, is that the MAJORITY dislike the change and only a small portion(the MINORITY) favor the change. You can't have an 80% minority, unless you're just being lamely sarcastic or are acting awfully dull.

[CWB001]

Where everyone is getting it wrong, is that the MAJORITY dislike the change and only a small portion(the MINORITY) favor the change. You can't have an 80% minority, unless you're just being lamely sarcastic or are acting awfully dull.

And are you dull enough to believe that anyone can be that stupid?

[badrad]

Where everyone is getting it wrong, is that the MAJORITY dislike the change and only a small portion(the MINORITY) favor the change. You can't have an 80% minority, unless you're just being lamely sarcastic or are acting awfully dull.tsk,tsk... wit a waste...

[FEND.]

Tsumaranai, you brought up a very interesting point...And IMO, it is a very "powerful" approach in promoting the sport...With this said, i was wondering, is it possible if IBF and ESPN/ESPN2 sign somekind of a contract(1-2 yr. is good) to televise live broadcast of IBF "bigger" events?ie. Thomas and Uber Cup, Sudirman Cup, Olympics and World Championships to begin with..Rather than thru broadband web..I mean why can't ESPN broadcast those events live or delayed??..Have it scheduled on ESPN for people to watch, even for 1-2 hrs...For example, i know CNBC did attempt it 2 yrs. ago in the Olympics and last yr's attempt by ESPN to broadcast the World Championship was a good start..Why not continue it further??..BTW, i don't know if anyone noticed, but i noticed in the recent Thomas & Uber Cup, i thought i saw Charmaine Reid doing interviews with players at the end of some matches like she did in last yr's WC, if not sorry, maybe i'm seeing things..:p:rolleyes: :confused:

We all know badminton is already popular in Asia and some part of Europe, but why not have the game exposed more to the U.S. public??...Especially considering a way to popularize the game in the U.S...Imagine us fans living in the U.S./North or South American continent getting a cable broadcast of the Thomas & Uber Cup, rather than thru broadband web??...If for just for 1-2 hrs, let it be, the rating migh start slowly, but it's a start??..I mean, if they can broadcast live poker tournaments, why can't they broadcast badminton(which probably has much more following that poker)??..Isn't U.S. basically the commercial capital of the world and an oasis for badminton to become popular??..:rolleyes:

Badminton and ESPN?? Pfft. Even magic the gathering gets shown on ESPN2. PWNED? No?

[eizmed]

If this is true and 21 points is here to stay, then we should all try to get used to it. Coz once they change at the grass-root level, the new young batch of players will have never known the 15 points system..... and like us, will NOT want to play it instead of their 21 points they are used to..... unless IBF changes it back... but not likely

[MarkinJapan]

TV is for suckers.
As for the rule change, I don't see the point. If it makes the game better to play, good. If not, it's crap. I havn't spent much time on the 21 point system myself to make that call yet.
As for hoping TV exposure will popularize the sport, who cares? Badminton is already a very popular sport around the world. So what's the point?
Big sponsors, more money, more what? More pro leagues?
Does anyone really want a badminton league equal to the NHL, NBA, or MLB? Or even be on the road to getting to that point? It's all become souless. No devotion to anything but money. We've watched all the great badminton players fight for their flag throughout their careers; blood sweat and tears. I don't think it would be better if they were in a position to take a better offer from the "New York Shuttlers" or the "Hong Kong Smash Kings" and moved around from team to team like so many pro atheletes do these days.
Amateur sport or just under radar is where its at.
F%^& pro sport. I could care less about it. If you love it, good, I'm happy.

I'm off to the courts now. I'll play some 21 games, and some 15 games. I'm sure i'll have a good time.

[wilfredlgf]

*Nandeyanen!

The 21-point system is the wrong direction to take. Take the finals for example - muscle had triumphed over brains, it was actually boring! Except for those who won of course.

I had been thinking about it, IBF could actually sanction tournaments of different scoring systems, similar to that of golf. Some could do the old 15-pt system, while others could follow the new 21-points. Gives an extra dimension to badminton, making it a lot more challenging and fair to both kinds of players, adding some variety to the game.

*Sorry, been watching a lot of animes of late. ;)

[eizmed]

TV is for suckers.
As for the rule change, I don't see the point. If it makes the game better to play, good. If not, it's crap. I havn't spent much time on the 21 point system myself to make that call yet.
As for hoping TV exposure will popularize the sport, who cares? Badminton is already a very popular sport around the world. So what's the point?
Big sponsors, more money, more what? More pro leagues?
Does anyone really want a badminton league equal to the NHL, NBA, or MLB? Or even be on the road to getting to that point? It's all become souless. No devotion to anything but money. We've watched all the great badminton players fight for their flag throughout their careers; blood sweat and tears. I don't think it would be better if they were in a position to take a better offer from the "New York Shuttlers" or the "Hong Kong Smash Kings" and moved around from team to team like so many pro atheletes do these days.
Amateur sport or just under radar is where its at.
F%^& pro sport. I could care less about it. If you love it, good, I'm happy.

I'm off to the courts now. I'll play some 21 games, and some 15 games. I'm sure i'll have a good time.

What you say has many good point and truths in it.... but it really make me said when the badminton champions take home only a few thousand dollars for winning the whole 6 or 7 star tournaments, when they deserve just as much as say tennis, golf and other professional athelete, as they train just as hard if not harder.

Its really sad when young new prospects or kids with potential are discouraged from training playing badminton full time as their parents or coaches can't gurantee them a future, just ask any pros, sponsors for badminton players just not as good as other sports.

For us, badminton addicts, its annoying for me almost all other sports gets LIVE coverage due to the money they attract but badminon coverage is often delayed or none at all... and why is it getting badminton supply and equipment so difficult in some parts of this world? coz not popular i guess.

Although not ideal, we do not live in a perfect world and MONEY really matters. I support IBF, yonex, Gosen or any large organisation doing whatever that will increase the popularity of the sport, so be it if that include having scantily dressed cheer leaders or break dancers between games in 2005 world championship or changing badminton apparel to singlets in Thomas cup 2006, or the 21 points system. Good luck.

[cxytdn]

Annual General Meeting

8 May 2006

The IBF held its Annual General Meeting in Tokyo on 6 May 2006. The meeting was held in conjunction with the Yonex Thomas Uber Cup Japan 2006
Of the many points of discussion on the main agenda, the President of the IBF Dr. Jang Young Joong confirmed that all effort will be made to promote the sport of badminton and the goal of the IBF is for badminton to become the world’s No.1 racquet sport by the year 2013.

The AGM also reached a unanimous decision to permanently implement the new 21 rally-point scoring system.

Since May last year, many member nations have been experimenting with this new scoring system and have submitted positive reports. With this unanimous decision, it will now be played in all IBF World Ranking tournaments including the Beijing 2008 Olympics.

“We are happy that we have the 100 percent support of all the member nations to adopt this new scoring system. There were only requests that this should not be a short term measure and the Council will definitely respect the wishes of its members,” said Punch Gunalan, IBF Deputy President.

The 21 rally point scoring system has been reported as having many advantages to players as well as to the fans and media, making it a desirable scoring system for the promotion of the sport.

“When played according to the 21 rally point system, the duration of the game becomes more predictable and this is an advantage to the media especially television media as live telecast matches are easier to schedule. So far, airtime sales have risen considerably since this new scoring system has been used,” said Gunalan.

Sponsors are also becoming more attracted to the game while spectators are finding it exciting and easier to understand. With the old scoring system, the duration of the game was longer and physically more strenuous to most players, whereas the new rally point scoring system is less demanding and less injuries have been reported.

[CWB001]

Yes, we've been discussing this for two days now in another thread.

[ctjcad]

^^Mods might want to merge this thread in the other thread??..:rolleyes:

[ctjcad]

As for hoping TV exposure will popularize the sport, who cares? Badminton is already a very popular sport around the world. So what's the point?
.."Badminton is already a very popular sport around the world"??..hmm, but i thought Mr. Gunalan and his cohorts want "badminton to become the world’s No.1 racquet sport by the year 2013"??..see thread
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32947

how will that happen if there's NO LIVE TV or CABLE coverage none whatsoever to show it to the rest of the world??..Except only thru a few media outlet (mostly from Asia and few from Europe) and thru broadband webTV??..And if they are broadcasting them, they will only show it to certain parts of the world..Imagine tennis, golf, sure they are popular as well, but what if there aren't any live coverage(whether thru TV or cable networks), how will people get exposed to the game??..Seemed like IBF never think there's a very massive land called America/U.S., which is basically the commercial capital in the world??..why haven't IBF invest its time and money more to popularize it in the U.S.??..

[ctjcad]

Badminton and ESPN?? Pfft. Even magic the gathering gets shown on ESPN2. PWNED? No?
hmm, well, if there's little or zero chance ESPN or ESPN2 will show it at all, then i think IBF better find another solluble way to make it "the #1 racket sport in the world"...Why? The game NEEDS exposure, "Big time exposure", and it has to, mainly, grab the U.S. market..The Asians/some Europeans countries already embraced and know it and it's already very popular..Except, personally, i doubt it'll be "the #1 racket sport in the world" if U.S./American market never embrace it..:rolleyes: :p :(

[ctjcad]

Although not ideal, we do not live in a perfect world and MONEY really matters. I support IBF, yonex, Gosen or any large organisation doing whatever that will increase the popularity of the sport, so be it if that include having scantily dressed cheer leaders or break dancers between games in 2005 world championship or changing badminton apparel to singlets in Thomas cup 2006, or the 21 points system. Good luck.
Hmm, concur and all those are "attempts"(ie. including the modification of the scoring system) by IBF to market the game, but how will it be exposed if there's no TV or Cable coverage of the sport to *the rest of the world*??..Even soccer in the U.S. gets shown almost *everyweek* in some Latin or Spanish channels(ie. esp. in Souther California). That's how it's supposed to be done. What about badminton??..Let's not go so far as requesting ESPN to broadcast the games, will small international tv channels in the U.S. show any badminton let alone the big IBF events??..:rolleyes: :p

[Neil Nicholls]

Yes, we've been discussing this for two days now in another thread.
even the bit about it being unanimous?

[badrad]

even the bit about it being unanimous?Of course it was UNANIMOUS - 100% of the 21-SS supporters all voted yes! The ballots for the non-supporters disappeared in the mail...

[Loh]

.."Badminton is already a very popular sport around the world"??..hmm, but i thought Mr. Gunalan and his cohorts want "badminton to become the world’s No.1 racquet sport by the year 2013"??..see thread
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32947

Seemed like IBF never think there's a very massive land called America/U.S., which is basically the commercial capital in the world??..why haven't IBF invest its time and money more to popularize it in the U.S.??..

Badminton is indeed very popular in Singapore and many parts of Asia. With the Netherlands coming in second after China in the recent Uber Cup Finals and hopefully there is media coverage in Europe, especially TV, on this world women team event, another good piece of publicity for badminton has been generated for Europe.

In fact, Europe could be considered as a very matured continent for badminton, with so much competition in existence, particularly the professional leagues which are practically non-existent in Asia. Many European countries started the game way ahead of the Asian countries yet Asia is now the top continent for world badminton. Surely badminton must be popular in Denmark but to what extent compared with the other sports, especially the racket sports. England, being traditionally accepted as the birthplace of badminton, continues to support the game and remain the Commonwealth champion for the women's team. Germany is another European country to watch as even one of the the IBF International Training Centres is located there. It is of note that Germany qualified for both the TC and UC this year, even better than Denmark, which entered the TC only.

Asia recently added another prospective giant, India, to the global badminton fraternity. India appeared in the TC (for the first time?) and was successful in the Melbourne Commonwealth Games, although India has from time to time produced world-class players in the past but perhaps not in the same spirit and as a coordinated team for both men and women.

As for the US that you mentioned, despite the fact that the US was one of the very early practitioners of the badminton game, even way ahead of Asia, and had produced some world class champions, the US has lagged far behind Asia and Europe in the development of badminton there. Being the world's biggest economy and arguably the richest, the US has the means to choose whatever sports it wants and it invented American Football and perhaps baseball, which are hardly played in Asia except in some pro-American countries like Japan and Chinese Taipeh. The US, though, has managed to publicize such games, especially basketball (NBA), on TV worldwide, again because it is able to persuade the rich American sponsors to support these games.

But why can't they do the same for badminton in the US? So it boils down to the organizers - how passionate and committed are they to bring badminton to mainstream America. The IBF has done its part last year by holding the World Championships in Anaheim. Great interest was generated and the Americans saw for themselves, at least on TV, how intense, skilful and demanding a game badminton is. But has there been sufficient followup thereafter? Who is responsible? Just the IBF alone, when it has to take of the rest of world as well?

I think the badminton fraternity should unite and do something for themselves to promote the game in the US and make themselves counted in world badminton. ;)

[ctjcad]

before i start, pardon Loh for my long reply again, hope you won't mind...:p :)


As for the US that you mentioned, despite the fact that the US was one of the very early practitioners of the badminton game, even way ahead of Asia, and had produced some world class champions, the US has lagged far behind Asia and Europe in the development of badminton there. Being the world's biggest economy and arguably the richest, the US has the means to choose whatever sports it wants and it invented American Football and perhaps baseball, which are hardly played in Asia except in some pro-American countries like Japan and Chinese Taipeh. The US, though, has managed to publicize such games, especially basketball (NBA), on TV worldwide, again because it is able to persuade the rich American sponsors to support these games.
true, all true...but if Mr. Gunalan really wants the game of badminton to become very popular and make it "the #1 racket sports in the world", then i think they must focus on tapping and making it "big" in the U.S...This is the market to "break it big"..
The NBA, MLB are already an "American-based" sport, with most of the clubs based in the U.S. So i can understand how the U.S. wants to expand them. But i'm sure you've seen what they've done to promote those sports outside of U.S. Not only thru broadcasting the games outside of U.S., but also playing exhibition games overseas, even having its own players play outside of U.S. But not badminton, eventhough the U.S. has started it and was successful earlier on..Now, i'm not saying badminton is an "Asian/European-based" sport, but basically isn't that's where most of the top players reside?

But why can't they do the same for badminton in the US? So it boils down to the organizers - how passionate and committed are they to bring badminton to mainstream America. The IBF has done its part last year by holding the World Championships in Anaheim. Great interest was generated and the Americans saw for themselves, at least on TV, how intense, skilful and demanding a game badminton is. But has there been sufficient followup thereafter? Who is responsible? Just the IBF alone, when it has to take of the rest of world as well?
hmm, yes, in a way i agree that the U.S. badminton enthusiast must push for the sport. True, IBF has attempted and tried bringing the sport to the U.S. to popularize it. But IMO, it should be IBF's vision and goal in "conquering" the U.S. so it can embrace the sport. How to do it? Well, simple, by starting to broadcast and get the game exposed to the public. Sure it will be very slow in the middel, but must persevere. Like i mentioned in my earlier post, I realized CNBC and ESPN tried an attempt in popularizing the sport in 2004 Olympics as well as last year's WC. But what happened next?? Seems like it's a 1-time deal..Is that all??..And don't know if it's true or not, but i heard after last yr's "complaints" in the WC, that most likely IBF will not do another event in the U.S. again??..heh?!?!..why??.:confused: :rolleyes:
IMO, i think the initiative must also come from IBF and Mr. Gunalan to "push and push" even more. If there are no live tv/cable broadcast, if possible hold 1 IBF per year in the U.S-Have it in New York, S.F., Orlando all over the U.S. and bring all the top players to show the sport. Imagine IBF as a "traveling circus". Also, since in a way IBF is not a "U.S.-based" organization body. If they can influence the top U.S. people in sport and keep "pushing", then who knows..?!?!..

I think the badminton fraternity should unite and do something for themselves to promote the game in the US and make themselves counted in world badminton. ;)
I think so too, the U.S. badminton fraternity can help..
It's a very big challenge, but without continuous exposure of the sport to the public, esp. in U.S., how will the public know and get interested??.. Like you mentioned in your post above, the U.S. arguably is "the world's biggest economy", what better way and approach this should be for IBF and Mr. Gunalan..Thing is, IMO, that should be the focus of IBF in trying to "popularize" the sport and then "make it the #1 racket sport in the world"...rather than doing all the gimmicks and scoring change etc. :rolleyes: ;)

[Chai]

Can someone quantity what is #1 racket sport in the world? Is it in term of revenue generation? is it in term of number of participants?

Currently which is #1 racket sport globally? I suppose in term of revenue generation it is Tennis, and in term of number of particpants, it is Table Tennis.

Could Badminton be more popular than table tennis in China in term of no of particpants?

The biggest population in the world is China and India. The big market as we all know.

I believe IBF should try to make badminton as #1 racket sport in these countries! After all it has been achieved by Singapore!

[asuncion_03]

why did they passed the 21-point system?? badminton games will not be thrilling.. they will simply rely on their opponent's mistakes!!!

[Loh]

before i start, pardon Loh for my long reply again, hope you won't mind...:p :)

IMO, i think the initiative must also come from IBF and Mr. Gunalan to "push and push" even more. If there are no live tv/cable broadcast, if possible hold 1 IBF per year in the U.S-Have it in New York, S.F., Orlando all over the U.S. and bring all the top players to show the sport. Imagine IBF as a "traveling circus". Also, since in a way IBF is not a "U.S.-based" organization body. If they can influence the top U.S. people in sport and keep "pushing", then who knows..?!?!..

I think so too, the U.S. badminton fraternity can help..
It's a very big challenge, but without continuous exposure of the sport to the public, esp. in U.S., how will the public know and get interested??.. Like you mentioned in your post above, the U.S. arguably is "the world's biggest economy", what better way and approach this should be for IBF and Mr. Gunalan..Thing is, IMO, that should be the focus of IBF in trying to "popularize" the sport and then "make it the #1 racket sport in the world"...rather than doing all the gimmicks and scoring change etc. :rolleyes: ;)

The IBF's ambition (not just Punch's) to make badminton as the world's no.1 racket sport and make it known to the world is commendable indeed. In IBF you have leaders who are bold enough to make their vision public, indirectly as a challenge to tennis. Consider the possibility of failure and the taunts that will follow. I salute them and certainly wish them well in their endeavours. :)

It seems to me that the IBF is not just paying lip-service and is determined to be successful in the end. I could see that some foundations are being laid to assist in achieving its objectives. Chief among these is the necessity to make IBF financially strong. In this regard, a professional marketing agent has been appointed for Asia and the Middle East (I think) and we should see some results in the near future. But as indicated, the US will certainly pose the greatest challenge. How do you convert a rich giant who only knows badminton as a garden game? I hope the IBF, with its extensive social and professional network, will be able to arrive at something concrete very soon. We all agree that the US must play a part although we also know that even without the US, world soccer could still thrive and is the world's greatest game! :D

Certainly more could be done but success cannot be achieved overnight, especially with an organization like the IBF with such a diversified membership, a multitude of views and a tumultuous history. But it is refreshing to note at least on the recent decision on the 21 rally point system, there was no dissension. Although we don't know the details, a time frame must have been set and surely priorities are also put in place.

It is good that from time to time, even an internet group like the BC, can offer constructive criticisms (certainly not unproven and unfounded allegations of corruption) and offer interesting ideas on how to improve the game in the respective countries and worldwide in general.

Your ideas on how to popularize the game in the US is good and I hope those concerned will take note. Hopefully a high-profile marketing agent has been appointed to deal with the hugh US market.

Good Luck to all of us. :p

[Loh]

why did they passed the 21-point system?? badminton games will not be thrilling.. they will simply rely on their opponent's mistakes!!!

We have discussed this topic extensively and you should be able to find some of the reasons even in the official announcement.

It is definitely not true to say "they will simply rely on their opponent's mistakes" to win a match! :rolleyes:

[dropper]

http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/images/icons/icon8.gif Badminton in USA has been steadily declining in the last 10 years. The USA Badminton organization has the same type of sickness that the IBF has, where it is controlled by a few arrogant and self serving individuals.

Even though the 2005 Worlds were held in Anaheim I don't see any improvement in popularity of the sport in USA since that time. 2006 USA National championships that were held in Anaheim attracted a total of 50 players -men and women- from the whole country for all 5 individual events; large number of the participants were juniors who are not in the national caliber of strength.

The hot bed of badminton in USA is considerd to be California. Now Southern California is losing its inter High School badminton team championships starting next year. This was a program that had been in existence for a long time and had helped bring in a large number of high school students to play badminton at their high school gyms. Considering that the USA Badminton President is also the Director for the California Region, it doesn't show well that the California students are now losing this high school badminton program. I don't see how the current USA baminton organization will work to improve the populatity of the sport nationwide when it can't even hold on to the programs that are in the USA Badminton President's own backyard.

[MarkinJapan]

The IBF's ambition (not just Punch's) to make badminton as the world's no.1 racket sport and make it known to the world is commendable indeed.
Why is it commendable? Badminton is already a more popular sport than tennis. If you measure the sucess of a sport by its TV coverage, maybe you should spend less time in front of one.

In IBF you have leaders who are bold enough to make their vision public, indirectly as a challenge to tennis.
I think there is enough room for more than one racket sport in the world. Challenge tennis? In what way? More people watched the olympic mixed badminton final than the any of the tennis.

So again, tell me what the ambition of the IBF is?
Is soccer defined by the kid playing in a back alley of San Paulo, or by the Siemens logo on beckham's shirt?

As for "this is the real world and money matters"
Whatever, i don't see pro badminton players starving. And that's what we're talking about right? Sponsors and money just sits around at the top 2% of the game anyway. Absolutley usless to the rest of the players of the sport. What, more money might mean more courts?
I've never been in a gym that didn't have badminton lines.

Tell me one positive effect for badminton from more exposure?
If you membership up, fair enough although it's already high. And i'm sure you know a few people that don't play. Bring them out. Work at the grass roots level will work better than a rule change or two.

[ctjcad]

Can someone quantity what is #1 racket sport in the world? Is it in term of revenue generation? is it in term of number of participants?

Currently which is #1 racket sport globally? I suppose in term of revenue generation it is Tennis, and in term of number of particpants, it is Table Tennis.

Could Badminton be more popular than table tennis in China in term of no of particpants?

The biggest population in the world is China and India. The big market as we all know.

I believe IBF should try to make badminton as #1 racket sport in these countries! After all it has been achieved by Singapore!
I would assume the phrase "the #1 racket sport in the world/globally" means having the most revenue and then participants/followers..As of now, badminton is competing with Tennis and Table tennis...But IMO, tennis is still hands down the most "popular" of the 3..

Sure China and India might have the biggest population and market in the world, but as far as i know, the U.S. is still basically "controlling" the rest of the world, in terms of commercialization, directly or indirectly...And that is key in marketing and promoting the game..I guess what i meant to say is "badminton needs to westernize the game even more if it's going to compete with Tennis"..:rolleyes:

[ctjcad]

Why is it commendable? Badminton is already a more popular sport than tennis. If you measure the sucess of a sport by its TV coverage, maybe you should spend less time in front of one.
Sure arguably badminton could be more "popular" than tennis. But I think Tennis is broadcasted on TV/Cable for the public to see for 1 main reason : ads = revenues. And esp. here in the U.S., they'll show them as often as possible; and same thing with golf tournaments. That's basically the main reason. And that's what Mr. Gunalan and IBF is probably referring to in saying "making badminton the #1 sport in the world"..:rolleyes:


Tell me one positive effect for badminton from more exposure?
If you membership up, fair enough although it's already high. And i'm sure you know a few people that don't play. Bring them out. Work at the grass roots level will work better than a rule change or two.
IMO, the game needs exposure, definitely. Esp. in a country like the U.S./American continent. It's safe to say it's already well embraced and well exposed to the rest of the Asian countries, and to most of Europe, but for some reason, it is not well embraced by the U.S.(eventhough i'm sure they've known abt the sport). "Working at the grass roots" is one way, definitely, but how will the public/kids get exposed if there aren't any live broadcast of the game for them to see??Only thru videos, dvd, broadband webtv etc...And by IBF not "pushing" and hold a few events in the U.S. can make us wonder...It's like trying to popularize tennis, but without showing any tennis tournaments/matches on tv/cable or holding any tournaments here...

[ctjcad]

It seems to me that the IBF is not just paying lip-service and is determined to be successful in the end. I could see that some foundations are being laid to assist in achieving its objectives. Chief among these is the necessity to make IBF financially strong. In this regard, a professional marketing agent has been appointed for Asia and the Middle East (I think) and we should see some results in the near future. But as indicated, the US will certainly pose the greatest challenge. How do you convert a rich giant who only knows badminton as a garden game? I hope the IBF, with its extensive social and professional network, will be able to arrive at something concrete very soon. We all agree that the US must play a part although we also know that even without the US, world soccer could still thrive and is the world's greatest game! :D
Well, i understand about soccer.;) I know they've attempted their effort in bringing the popularity of soccer to the U.S. after the 1994 World Cup. But i'm sure FIFA and the U.S. soccer really worked hard after that. Even having some European and Latin American teams visit and play with the U.S. team. I agree with your statement i've put in bold. IMO, that's what IBF should promote also. If not thru tv/cable, then have some tournament(s) here and present the game. Not just a 1-time deal and that's it. That's why when i heard abt IBF not interested in having anymore tournament(s) in the U.S., after last yr's WC, i was quite surprised. And esp. now, after Mr. Gunalan came up with his new "goal/vision"..?!?!..Don't tell me, the U.S. is an "afterburn" after last yr's WC??..:rolleyes: :p


It is good that from time to time, even an internet group like the BC, can offer constructive criticisms (certainly not unproven and unfounded allegations of corruption) and offer interesting ideas on how to improve the game in the respective countries and worldwide in general.

Your ideas on how to popularize the game in the US is good and I hope those concerned will take note. Hopefully a high-profile marketing agent has been appointed to deal with the hugh US market.

Good Luck to all of us. :p
sure thing, that's why there's a forum like this where we can meet with other badminton enthusiasts to talk and discuss, "freely" and with enthusiasm, about the sport. In a way if we are not doing this kind of discussions/constructive criticisms, then i wonder abt the future and "health" of the sport and its followers...:rolleyes: :)

[wood_22_chuck]

The various models tried by the IBF looks like big bangs and fireworks. World Junior Championships, and World Championships in North America with the attempt to generate interest and hopefully some follow-ups to take advantage, or rather to generate momentum for the game to flourish.

From the discussions, it seems like this has failed.

I rather like MarkinJapan's comments that to focus on the grass-root players. Slowly but surely develop more and more players who are genuinely interested in the game, and modestly fund players who are interested in participating.

On the west coast of North America, there's a proliferation of new badminton facilities being built, California, and Vancouver, Canada, for example. The trend is happening. These facilities are mirroring the wishes of the players for quality venues for the game of badminton.

And I would rather like to see IBF help these places out, by funding tournaments at these levels or provide infrastructors to help retiring professional players get jobs as professional coaches there.

-dave

[ctjcad]

The various models tried by the IBF looks like big bangs and fireworks. World Junior Championships, and World Championships in North America with the attempt to generate interest and hopefully some follow-ups to take advantage, or rather to generate momentum for the game to flourish.

From the discussions, it seems like this has failed.
Executing it only once, with a mindset of "well, we've tried it, but the likelihood of us coming back and doing this kind of thing again is not very good", will surely not help in generating interest of the U.S./North American public. How can it work if IBF mgt. have that mindset??..I'm sure IBF knows it won't be an overnight turnaround, esp. with badminton..but they won't try again??..


I rather like MarkinJapan's comments that to focus on the grass-root players. Slowly but surely develop more and more players who are genuinely interested in the game, and modestly fund players who are interested in participating.

On the west coast of North America, there's a proliferation of new badminton facilities being built, California, and Vancouver, Canada, for example. The trend is happening. These facilities are mirroring the wishes of the players for quality venues for the game of badminton.
well, that's a good start...but how abt the rest of the country/continent?? Midwest, Central and Eastern to Southern U.S.??..Are we ignoring them also??..
I guess the only way to have badminton really "flourish" in the U.S.(as a whole) is if there are "American-born" players playing and being succesful playing internationally..


And I would rather like to see IBF help these places out, by funding tournaments at these levels or provide infrastructors to help retiring professional players get jobs as professional coaches there.
Yah, i agree with this also, and it correlates with your above sentiment.
Speaking of this, until now there hasn't been any news on the proposed Houston training center which was promised by IBF..or maybe it's already there??..:rolleyes:
anyways, i'm getting a bit off topic here...:p

[Murali]

Like the majority in this forum, I am dissappointed and mad. Is it possible to take IBF to court over this? The change has been made by individuals at the top levels of IBF and constituent member organizations without much input from playing members of the same. Such a drastic change should be voted upon by members of national organizations (such as members of USA Badminton).
Any lawyers in this forum who would like to consider this? And work pro bono?! Forum members may be willing to chip in some money......

[kasuya]

The change of the scoring system.... is it really that difficult to adjust to it? and also is it really that bad that we can't even give it a try ourselves??? BTW, how many of you have tried using it in your own games before?

I tried it the other day when playing in a club in a doubles game, and all four of us seemingly like it. Not that we don't like the 15x3 system, but we find that the rally system is acceptable, unlike what most of you complain about.

Yes, there are differences, and there are things that we have to adjust to... but does it necessarily need to take irrational actions to try to change something that seemingly won't change for you and me.

Badminton is a sport that requires lots of physical and mental skill, no matter how the scoring system is... nobody can take that away. If you can't win under the new system and just wish the IBF to change back to the old one so you can have a better chance at winning a tournament or something then I wish you good luck, but I would much rather practice more and win more tourneys under any system. It is much better to use the time which you use to whine about the new system to further improve your skill than sitting around on your butt in front of a computer... wait, isn't that what I am doing here... hahahaha...

[twobeer]

The change of the scoring system.... is it really that difficult to adjust to it? and also is it really that bad that we can't even give it a try ourselves??? BTW, how many of you have tried using it in your own games before?

It's not particular hard to adjust.. but it makes the game a bit shorter, and big comebacks much more unlikely. The annoying thing is to change things without any positvie effects..Can't think of ONE single positive thing with shorter games and getting points when the opponent is serving.
What ticks me off is the way the scoring change is "marketed" and "pushed trough" without ´grassroot support in the player community!!



I tried it the other day when playing in a club in a doubles game, and all four of us seemingly like it. Not that we don't like the 15x3 system, but we find that the rally system is acceptable, unlike what most of you complain about.


Why should we settle for "acceptable"? don't we wont the best possible rules and game... I see no reason to accept inferiority. We should strive to improve the game not just change for change sake...
We should definitively not makes changes that makes the game require LESS skill and stamina!!
Would you find it "acceptable" if IBF voted to use Mavis 350 for IBF tournaments? Would You find it "acceptable" if they changed to overhead services from behind the baseline???



Yes, there are differences, and there are things that we have to adjust to... but does it necessarily need to take irrational actions to try to change something that seemingly won't change for you and me.

Badminton is a sport that requires lots of physical and mental skill, no matter how the scoring system is... nobody can take that away.


Of course it can!! just change the scoring to 1 point per set, and the physical skill and mental skill will not be much required, a lucky shot or roll on the net will win you the match (even against Lin Dan)!!



If you can't win under the new system and just wish the IBF to change back to the old one so you can have a better chance at winning a tournament or something then I wish you good luck, but I would much rather practice more and win more tourneys under any system. It is much better to use the time which you use to whine about the new system to further improve your skill than sitting around on your butt in front of a computer... wait, isn't that what I am doing here... hahahaha...

Actually I think players who win with the old system will be able to win with the shorter 21 games as well.. The only different is that some players who where not fit enough to win 15x3 tournament now will have a chance to be contenders as well.. And in very even matches luck will play a bigger factor (due to the rally scoring) than with 15x3 where you have to win the serve and win when serving to get points!

[kasuya]

It's not particular hard to adjust.. but it makes the game a bit shorter, and big comebacks much more unlikely. The annoying thing is to change things without any positvie effects..Can't think of ONE single positive thing with shorter games and getting points when the opponent is serving.
What ticks me off is the way the scoring change is "marketed" and "pushed trough" without ´grassroot support in the player community!!

Why should we settle for "acceptable"? don't we wont the best possible rules and game... I see no reason to accept inferiority. We should strive to improve the game not just change for change sake...
We should definitively not makes changes that makes the game require LESS skill and stamina!!
Would you find it "acceptable" if IBF voted to use Mavis 350 for IBF tournaments? Would You find it "acceptable" if they changed to overhead services from behind the baseline???

Of course it can!! just change the scoring to 1 point per set, and the physical skill and mental skill will not be much required, a lucky shot or roll on the net will win you the match (even against Lin Dan)!!



The word "acceptable" was a soft word I used, and it was meant not to strike any negative response from people who are very much against the new system. In fact, my friends and I liked the new system as much since we were more focused on winning every point and ensure we didn't fall behind on score. There was so much intensivity during that game.

You try to make a point using extreme examples such as changing the scoring to 1 point per set, is not much of a strong argument.

Badminton requires much more than what I listed before(physical and mental strength), there are much more things like knowledge of the game, timing of pace changing, mind games---manipulate opponent's emotion status, etc. Some of those things are still required to win a game under the new system. The one thing that most people are concern about is the fact that players are more aware of taking "risk", well guess what... successful people don't avoid risk, they MANAGE risk... so in the case of badminton... go practice more and train on accuracy or something...:D

[Chai]

Just imagine if you are given a computer game, one with 3x15 format and another is 3x21 format.

Would you choose the same physical attributes, strokes, strategy and tactic to play both format?

After testing both formats, which format of the game that you will be spending your hard earn money?

If you are Bill Gates will it be 3X15 or 3x21 should you market in Xbox ?

[Tsumaranai]

I don't think that's really a relevant inquiry. The actual physical activity has nothing to do with a video game version. And anyway, there doesn't seem to be any badminton video games, which is either due to the lack of influence in the gaming industry or the difficulties in producing a game that can efficiently match the tactical and physical intensity of the game. Otherwise, it'd probably be pretty dull and unrealistic.

[taneepak]

Try to look at it this way :
The old system is in the strict sense of 'match' not fair because you cannot win a point for a rally won when not serving. How can you not win a point for winning a rally? Winning the right to serve is justice delayed, and justice delayed is justice denied. It is against natural justice. The mental state of the player is also different when serving and when receiving, one high the other low, thus reducing the real spirit of an all out 'combatants war'. It is like a mini 'tea break' in between serves. It also had to devise three different scoring systems for the same game of badminton! The new system will demand 100% focus, concentration, no 'siestas' in between, and for a change, real intensity and quality shots.

[wedgewenis]

Now thats just dumb

To me 21x3 is Not badminton at all, it is a RACE - thats right its a 21 Point race to see who makes less errors.

Some of the best matches this year were the ones before the experimental scoring started - great comebacks and drama - and then 21x3 came, now the action is usually the same but overall its not better.

Its a race to make less errors over a pre-determined Number of serves or rallies - and thats all it is.

Now for pro-badminton it would be fine to me if this was temporary - but overall and for ALL Badminton players in general, this is bad because Way too many people are simply just going to refuse to use this system - myself included. - This sport needs unity and this is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

[tk009]

Personally I am in favour of the old system 15x3 however unless something gets done I suppose I will have to play with the new system from now on since I play competitively. I have tried the new system out in friendlys and watched it in play in competitive matches and I must say it doesnt feel like the badminton Ive gotten used to.

Right now I am not impressed with the IBF Mr Gunalan in particular but I suspect this may have something to do with the IBF in general. I cannot believe there was no resistance to this change and this was so that is just an indicator of how out of touch the IBF is with the fans and that it has to go. An example of the pig headedness of the IBF at the momment I find is the article on Mr Gunalans treatment of the Russian badminton http://www.badmintoncentral.com/badminton-central/content/view/111/2/

At the momment I dont beleive they have the interests of badminton fans at heart and that alone in itself is a reason why the IBF should NOT represent badminton in general. I see why they are implementing this change but I dont agree with sacrificing the game for TV time is worth it and some of the reasons given I do not agree with. There is nothing wrong with a duck! (15-0) thats just a very good indicator for differences in skill levels and that you should probably be playing with someone your own level, and isnt a good enough reason to implement the changes when there is so much fan based opposition to it.

Anyway Ill end this rant with I hope something is done about this mess and the IBF is scrapped with another body that actually gives a damn about us the fans!

[taneepak]

Personally I am in favour of the old system 15x3 however unless something gets done I suppose I will have to play with the new system from now on since I play competitively. I have tried the new system out in friendlys and watched it in play in competitive matches and I must say it doesnt feel like the badminton Ive gotten used to.

Right now I am not impressed with the IBF Mr Gunalan in particular but I suspect this may have something to do with the IBF in general. I cannot believe there was no resistance to this change and this was so that is just an indicator of how out of touch the IBF is with the fans and that it has to go. An example of the pig headedness of the IBF at the momment I find is the article on Mr Gunalans treatment of the Russian badminton http://www.badmintoncentral.com/badminton-central/content/view/111/2/

At the momment I dont beleive they have the interests of badminton fans at heart and that alone in itself is a reason why the IBF should NOT represent badminton in general. I see why they are implementing this change but I dont agree with sacrificing the game for TV time is worth it and some of the reasons given I do not agree with. There is nothing wrong with a duck! (15-0) thats just a very good indicator for differences in skill levels and that you should probably be playing with someone your own level, and isnt a good enough reason to implement the changes when there is so much fan based opposition to it.

Anyway Ill end this rant with I hope something is done about this mess and the IBF is scrapped with another body that actually gives a damn about us the fans!

You may want to visit this thread "Punch Gunalan and the IBF", post #8 of May 6, 2006 by Mikie from Russia, to get a better balance of what is involved. Also the Court of Arbitration's ruling was hollow because the RBF does not exist any more as an entity of the IBF.

[CWB001]

Also the Court of Arbitration's ruling was hollow because the RBF does not exist any more as an entity of the IBF.

Typical spin. The ruling was not hollow. It exposed Punch and the IBF as willing to ignore their own rules to get their way and also to steamroller over the rights of legitimately affiliated players.

The rights or wrongs of the RBF's side of things is irrelevant, particularly now it is defunct.

[ctjcad]

Try to look at it this way :
The old system is in the strict sense of 'match' not fair because you cannot win a point for a rally won when not serving. How can you not win a point for winning a rally? Winning the right to serve is justice delayed, and justice delayed is justice denied. It is against natural justice. The mental state of the player is also different when serving and when receiving, one high the other low, thus reducing the real spirit of an all out 'combatants war'. It is like a mini 'tea break' in between serves. It also had to devise three different scoring systems for the same game of badminton! The new system will demand 100% focus, concentration, no 'siestas' in between, and for a change, real intensity and quality shots.
taneepak,
i'm sure you know the whole intent behind this "new"(21x3) scoring system, it's nothing more than an attempt by Mr. Gunalan to market and promote the game more, that's corrent isn't it??..Nothing more and nothing less, even he admitted it..
Now if the "old", previous scoring system was so lame, why did it take this long of an attempt to change it?? Did IBF just all of a sudden thought about the idea overnight?? I'm sure the IBF have thought about changing the scoring system before many2 times(incl. the 5x7). I think IBF is trying to mimic the game of tennis and table tennis too much, whilst they should stay with the original game standard and it's uniqueness and try to promote it in a different way, if this is the main purpose of Mr. Gunalan. :rolleyes:

[taneepak]

taneepak,
i'm sure you know the whole intent behind this "new"(21x3) scoring system, it's nothing more than an attempt by Mr. Gunalan to market and promote the game more, that's corrent isn't it??..Nothing more and nothing less, even he admitted it..
Now if the "old", previous scoring system was so lame, why did it take this long of an attempt to change it?? Did IBF just all of a sudden thought about the idea overnight?? I'm sure the IBF have thought about changing the scoring system before many2 times(incl. the 5x7). I think IBF is trying to mimic the game of tennis and table tennis too much, whilst they should stay with the original game standard and it's uniqueness and try to promote it in a different way, if this is the main purpose of Mr. Gunalan. :rolleyes:

As I said in my post, this is one way look at it, from a different perspective. And they are quite persuasive arguements.

[wood_22_chuck]

What contributes is clarity, not fuzziness.

-dave

[taneepak]

Typical spin. The ruling was not hollow. It exposed Punch and the IBF as willing to ignore their own rules to get their way and also to steamroller over the rights of legitimately affiliated players.

The rights or wrongs of the RBF's side of things is irrelevant, particularly now it is defunct.

Many people cite this Court of Arbitration case to 'rubbish' Punch Gunalan and the IBF. As I said earlier the so-called 'victory' by the RBF is hollow, in every sense of the word. The RBF has no players because all of them have defected and have had enough of the RBF. I think a grave injustice has been done to both Punch and the IBF.
I would suggest we do not get involved in complex issues that we know very little about, to avoid looking foolish with eggs all over our face.

[taneepak]

Now thats just dumb

To me 21x3 is Not badminton at all, it is a RACE - thats right its a 21 Point race to see who makes less errors.

Some of the best matches this year were the ones before the experimental scoring started - great comebacks and drama - and then 21x3 came, now the action is usually the same but overall its not better.

Its a race to make less errors over a pre-determined Number of serves or rallies - and thats all it is.

Now for pro-badminton it would be fine to me if this was temporary - but overall and for ALL Badminton players in general, this is bad because Way too many people are simply just going to refuse to use this system - myself included. - This sport needs unity and this is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

The real test is in the eating. I suggest you watch the Thomas Cup semi-finals and finals. These finals, using the new scoring system, speak for themselves.

[Chai]

The old system is in the strict sense of 'match' not fair because you cannot win a point for a rally won when not serving. How can you not win a point for winning a rally? Winning the right to serve is justice delayed, and justice delayed is justice denied. It is against natural justice.

We have been saying in the other thread that
“In badminton the scale are heavily tipped in favour of receiver, because of the rules governing the server and the height of the net”

It is therefore logical for the server to win a point and the receiver to win the right to serve.

You could still argue that 3x21 will place both sides in favour position as receiver when he/she has lost a rally and it is still a fair system compare to 3x15.

But we are now talking about two completely different systems. Many in this forum have been voiced that the 3x21 is less challenging to play in comparison to the 3x15, and IBF has implied that it is physically less demanding too (though we could always disagree with IBF!).

Until someone could quantify that the 3x21 is more challenging to play then the 3x15; I will be in favour of the 3x15, what a beautiful game!

[cabfan]

Why its 3X21 rally instead of 3X15? The play is now 2times shorter!
I think it should be 5X21 (as in volleyball) or 3X31!

[twobeer]

The word "acceptable" was a soft word I used, and it was meant not to strike any negative response from people who are very much against the new system. In fact, my friends and I liked the new system as much since we were more focused on winning every point and ensure we didn't fall behind on score. There was so much intensivity during that game.

You try to make a point using extreme examples such as changing the scoring to 1 point per set, is not much of a strong argument.


Extrapolating is quite useful to explain how even a slight reduction in number of points - game increases the element of luck... (some people will argue shorter games require more mental strength, but the key thing is that things like string breakage, net-roll, line-calls etc etc will be more important with the current system), thus introudcing a slightly bigger element of luck in the game and "flukes" becomes a bigger factor (ie its more likely that the best badminton player may loose a game against an opponent that is very close in skills but are having a "lucky" day, than with the old system).

weaker players may like this system, as it a) gives them a better chance against a slighty better opponent and b) it requires less physique..

[twobeer]

The real test is in the eating. I suggest you watch the Thomas Cup semi-finals and finals. These finals, using the new scoring system, speak for themselves.

yes they where definitively not as exiting as this years all-england with 15x3 !!!!

[viver]

I would suggest we do not get involved in complex issues that we know very little about, to avoid looking foolish with eggs all over our face.

I surely agree. The scoring change issue is a complex one. Like the badminton service issue...

[CWB001]

Many people cite this Court of Arbitration case to 'rubbish' Punch Gunalan and the IBF. As I said earlier the so-called 'victory' by the RBF is hollow, in every sense of the word. The RBF has no players because all of them have defected and have had enough of the RBF. I think a grave injustice has been done to both Punch and the IBF.
I would suggest we do not get involved in complex issues that we know very little about, to avoid looking foolish with eggs all over our face.

You are deliberately missing the point yet again and being both patronising and insulting (again).

The fact remains that Punch and the IBF were caught attempting to bully an affiliated organisation and ignoring their own rules. Their reason for doing that is irrelevant and so are the actual rights and wrongs of the RBF situation.

[FEND.]

You are deliberately missing the point yet again and being both patronising and insulting (again).

The fact remains that Punch and the IBF were caught attempting to bully an affiliated organisation and ignoring their own rules. Their reason for doing that is irrelevant and so are the actual rights and wrongs of the RBF situation.

How does one catch Punch and the IBF in that situation? Does one have concrete proof? Was one actually there to catch the pair (Punch and IBF in this case) or rather just the IBF in progress while bullying the RBF? And why do they want to mess with a country's association which has one of the largest armies with one of the most sophisticated weapons in the world. :p

[CWB001]

How does one catch Punch and the IBF in that situation? Does one have concrete proof? :p

Well, one has the published judgement of the International Court of Arbitration in Sport.