Is Lin Dan's Serve Illegal?

[sergesa]

I am actually conducting a physiological and technical study using the Gade/Lin Dan semi-final match at the China Masters in 2006.

It seems that, somehow, Lin Dan is hitting the feathers first when in serves with his forehand.

The first pic, from above, shows he never hit the nose of the shuttle but the feathers.

In the bottom pic, you will notice that he succeeds in doing so by throwing the bird instead of simply droping it.

This is really strange.

[habujoji]

Hi,
Unfortunately i'm not an expert so i can't see with pictures if there's anything that could be matter of discussion about cheating. I just wanted to ask if the service had been the crucial point of the match. I aven't seen this match, so...If Peter Gade had lost most of the points with a strange deceptive service from Lin Dan, that sure must be something that need to be discuss. If not...

[sergesa]

The fact is that Lin Dan's forehand service is always the same and he seems to be hitting the feathers first which is prohibited by the rules.

As a matter of fact, even Lin Dan backhand serve is faulty as he jocks the head of his racket prior to the serve, not always, most of the time.

Rules are nade to stick by.

When they become arbitrary, the game itself become arbitrary.

[Quasimodo]

What's the time lapse between those frames? The recovery time of feather shuttles is quite quick. IIRC, it's in some hundreths of a second. So, it can be difficult to judge what the contact point actually is.

[chickenpoodle]

the images are just made to seem like he's serving illegally.
from all of the matches i've seen, his serves are perfectly fine. the shuttle does not tumble or spin or do anything abnormal in terms of flight.

[ants]

Maybe he is trying it out in China Masters. Since its his home game.

[fishmilk]

But I have noticed he has an error in his backhand serve. He jerks it back once before he actually serves which is illegal. He is consistent and honestly, in play, it really doesn't do any harm. However, I would think for a player who plays as much as he does, the umps should have caught it. Also you would expect the world #1 to be able to serve properly no?

[taneepak]

I don't think we are qualified to be a judge, simply because we were not there. That is why they have a service judge. Also the spectators and the so-called aggrieved opponents would not have remained silent.

[jgao_net]

I don't think we are qualified to be a judge, simply because we were not there. That is why they have a service judge. Also the spectators and the so-called aggrieved opponents would not have remained silent.

you said it best. we are not there watching the game so we cant judge if he's serving illegally or not. also, i think that he has always been serving like that and so far, no judge has called it yet.

[sergesa]

I would find little problem with that if he _always_ did the jerk motion on his backhand serve.

But, no. At times he does serve without the jerking motion.

The serves of Gade, Hidayat, Lee... are all perfectly legal.

Not Lin Dan's.

[Player13]

I would find little problem with that if he _always_ did the jerk motion on his backhand serve.

But, no. At times he does serve without the jerking motion.

The serves of Gade, Hidayat, Lee... are all perfectly legal.

Not Lin Dan's.

If this is a question of legality, which is a pretty strong accusation, then take it up with the IBF. Posting it here wont do much for bringing an accused cheater to justice. It would just sully his name with no solid proof since the photographs' timing are not taken into account. I've come to be objective in looking at photographs on the internet; photoshop-ing or doctoring pictures is nothing new, and have been used to incriminate many people.

You speak very strongly about what you're saying here; that would mean either that you're trying to hurt his reputation, or you seriously think he's a a cheater. I'd just like to say that if you Really are concerned about the legality of his actions, take it up with the right officials, esp before making statements like the one above about his serve being illegal. If you have the proper evidence, then it will prove that he is a cheater, and will have done the Badminton community a favor by pointing this out. Less gossip, more justice!

[chibe_K]

Talking about how Lin Dan cheats, nothing is more annoying than seeing him turning his back against the umpire and start working on the feathers to slow down the birdie. I have seen him doing it so many times and got away with it.

[taneepak]

Talking about how Lin Dan cheats, nothing is more annoying than seeing him turning his back against the umpire and start working on the feathers to slow down the birdie. I have seen him doing it so many times and got away with it.

Come on, the only way to slow down the shuttle is to break and bend outwards the top feathers stem. Breaking and bending inwards will speed it up. This will give Lin Dan's opponent very damaging evidence to present to the umpire to warrant a red card. Combing the feathers to smooth them is another thing-there is nothing wrong with that.
Let us be sensible. Do not try to be the umpire, service judge, all the line judges, and the tournament referee.

[sergesa]

Look here people,

I am doing this work to prepare a very serious training program in badminton.

So, the first thing I do is get the best 21 pointer so far. That happens to be Gade against Lin Dan in the semis of the 2006 China Masters.

I get in Vegas Video and I trim all the non playing stuff to get a precise idea of how many playing time there is compared to rest time… and get that into a database for future use.

In the course of this work I get to the fifth exchange of the match… Note the 3-1 score in favor of the Dane… and I can’t believe my eyes: the sequence definitely shows that Lin Dan is NOT hitting the shuttle on the nose. You will notice that the shuttle never changes shape and is driven forward without ever tumbling.

I have included the full sequence with the 8 frames without jumping any.

This is not doctoring: anybody who has the match will clearly see this.

How could that be?

So I went further in the match and, bingo, one can see how Lin Dan does it (that was my second set of pics): he throws the shuttle which will never tumble and he will eventually hit the feathers first.

He does this throwing motion _every_ time he serves on his forehand.

This was a complete surprise to me.

I am not trying to smudge Lin Dan, I am only calling what I see.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

As I have pointed out, Lin Dan’s jerky motion on his backhand serve is _absolutely_ illegal. And he does not always do it. This simple fact removes any possibility of a lousy alibi: “hey! I can’t help it!”

YET, I have NEVER seen him sanctioned for this serve. Any one cares to challenge this?

And the IBF knows it.

Now, I suppose you want me to send an email to the IBF and remind them that, according to their rules, the service starts when the racquet goes forward and it can never stop to go forward? That Mr. Lin Dan violates this rule all the time?

[BadFever]

I think this thread should be renamed from "cheating" to "faulting" or something else. IMHO, cheating is a bit too harsh, especially when there are umpires and referees around during the match. Also, if PG (or any of his opponents) believed the serve is not allowed or unfair, he would have voiced it out during the match. PG or any Pro players would have enough experience to see how the shuttle react after the serve. Also, I think low serve in a game of Single is not as crucial as Double. Just my 2 cents.

[taneepak]

The video quality is poor-there are double images. It doesn't say anything. It would be very poor evidence. BTW have you ever seen Lin Dan play live? Also Lin Dan has played in almost all the countries in the world, under all sorts of umpires and line and service judges. Perhaps you see something they don't?

[Neil Nicholls]

YET, I have NEVER seen him sanctioned for this serve. Any one cares to challenge this?
yep.
I have seen LD faulted on his backhand serve for the forward back forward motion. And I've seen the action ignored by the same service judge in the same game. And I've seen other players with similar serves both faulted and ignored.

The same problems, i.e. consistency of application of laws, exist in other sports.

[event]

I'm not convinced that these photos show an illegal serve.

One thing I'm wondering is whether these are low forehand serves or long serves. The reason I ask is that Lin's racquet is in front of his body throughout the motion. Most long serves involve a backswing that will pass the lateral position of your torso at some point.

Regardless, it is clear that the toss you mention makes the shuttle point toward the net before contact is made. That doesn't guarantee that the strings hit the feathers first. If the racquet face is pointing forward and upward at an even slightly flatter angle than the back feathers, the strings can still make contact with the cork first.

The other thing to consider is that after the cork is struck, the cork should move forward faster than the feathers. In other words, as soon as contact is made, the angle of the feathers should necessarily be backward and upward. If the feathers are struck first, the position of the shuttle in the frame following contact should have the feathers pointing forward and upward. Either that or some wildly unexpected position as with the so-called S-serve.

[event]

We're also obviously missing part of his backswing. Take a look at his racquet position in these frames 6 and 7:
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20063&stc=1&d=1148963675
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20064&stc=1&d=1148963675
His racquet is further back in 7 than 6. That means both that only 2 of these 8 frames show the backswing/contact portion of the serve and that we are missing part of both the backswing and the contact. If the racquet can go back from its forward position in frame 6 and into a backswing of whatever depth and then come back to its position in frame 7, what can the position of the shuttle do in that same interval? Where is contact made? It isn't clear whether it is between frames 7 and 8 or after frame 8. If it is the former, I have already pointed out that there is an interval between frames during which the angle of the shuttle could change such that it would be more obvious that the racquet face were flat enough to strike the cork. If it is the latter, then these photos mean nothing, anyway.

[cooler]

A big fuss over insignificant matter base on blurry observations, even if it was truly illegal

1. top view photos showed potential contacting feather first but side photos, imo, don't say the same story.

2. throwing instead dropping a shuttle for serving isn't illegal.

3. EVEN if lin dan purposely hit the feather first, it is insignificant and maybe even disadvantage to LD.
a) the illegal 'S' serve is effective in double but not so in singles. Shuttle has to travel LONGER from ~ center to center of court, providing plenty of distance for the shuttle to return to stablized flight trajectory, unlike in double serve where distance is much shorter.
b) when the serving distance is longer in singles, it is much harder to gauge the correct and desired angle and weight of your serve, making it a DISADVANTAGE for the server.

4. The best view is from the service judge and Mr Gade himself, WHY THEY HAVEN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT IT:confused: :confused: :confused:


More examples of photos used as proof:
1. US landing on the moon was filmed in a studio.
2. US release of fuzzy video of a small white flying object hitting the pentagon doesn't prove it's a jet liner.


sergesa, i never serve with similar motion, are mine serves illegal?
here is one advance training advice, if u serve with same motion, U R PREDICTABLE.

I'm not condoning LD alleged purposeful faulted serve, I only wish the rules are applied equally to all players.

[cooler]

A big fuss over insignificant matter base on blurry observations, even if it was truly illegal

1. top view photos showed potential contacting feather first but side photos, imo, don't say the same story.

2. throwing instead dropping a shuttle for serving isn't illegal.

3. EVEN if lin dan purposely hit the feather first, it is insignificant and maybe even disadvantage to LD.
a) the illegal 'S' serve is effective in double but not so in singles. Shuttle has to travel LONGER from ~ center to center of court, providing plenty of distance for the shuttle to return to stablized flight trajectory, unlike in double serve where distance is much shorter.
b) when the serving distance is longer in singles, it is much harder to gauge the correct and desired angle and weight of your serve when one contacting the feather first, making it a DISADVANTAGE for the server.

4. The best view is from the service judge and Mr Gade himself, WHY THEY HAVEN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT IT:confused: :confused: :confused:


More examples of photos used as proof:
1. US landing on the moon was filmed in a studio.
2. US release of fuzzy video of a small white flying object hitting the pentagon doesn't prove it's a jet liner.


sergesa, i never serve with similar motion, are mine serves illegal?
here is one advance training advice, if u serve with same motion, U R PREDICTABLE.

I'm not condoning LD alleged purposeful faulted serve, I only wish the rules are applied equally to all players.

addition is underlined

[DinkAlot]

Boo-hoo, cry me a river. When you play Lin Dan, you can come back and tell us how his serve changed the overall game. :p :D

[Loopy]

sergesa,

I have watched many many games of Lin Dan.
I can tell you this about his back jerking motion. It is NOT illegal.
He has been called once in Lin Dan vs Peter Gade (was it final AE??) about it, because that motion was too close following the actual serve, which would have make it seem like a fake serve. Other than that, all his serves with his jerking motion is legal.

Two, you cannot prove anything with a bird view angle of the shot, because of the angulation of the racket itself. This can provide for optical illusions.
You need a side view of the serve.

[chessymonkey]

if it was a S-Serve where u hit the feather on purpose
the whole idea of it being illegal is because it creates an unexpected tumble
while the bird is in air making it extremely hard to the recieving end. i reviewed the video and i don't see any abnormal flight path on LD's serve..
Did LD made Faulty serve i can't really tell from the video but
did he do something on his serve to give him any advantage.. i really don't see any sign.

[CG 99]

I can tell you this about his back jerking motion. It is NOT illegal.
He has been called once in Lin Dan vs Peter Gade (was it final AE??) about it, because that motion was too close following the actual serve, which would have make it seem like a fake serve. Other than that, all his serves with his jerking motion is legal.


Are you saying it's not illegal because there is so much time between his jerking movement and his actual serve?

[hezudao]

well said, event.

[Simp84]

I think a lot of professionals player cheat when they serve anyway..
majority serve above their waist.... the best example is gao ling
anyway theres nothing we can do about it

[^Tayo^]

I've also watched many of his videos and I also don't like the way he cheats on other stuff. In a 15 points game system, he often calls for repowdering his grip handle, especially when his opponents are on good momentum. Another way is when his opponent is just about to flick serve, he often raises his hand to claim that he wasn't ready. Or when he wins a point, he walks around the backcourt to buy more time. I noticed that many umpires tried to warn him about his methods on buying time but he doesn't care, he pretends that he understood but in fact he doesn't speak a word of English. Thank god that someone like "Sergesa" came up with this post. IMHO, LD uses this method, which might seem unsignificant to many, but makes a big difference on disturbing the mental game of his strong opponents, especially those who emotionally don't cave in easily. Having said that, Peter Gade and Taufik Hidayat still rock over LD for their sportmandships.

[Simp84]

I've also watched many of his videos and I also don't like the way he cheats on other stuff. In a 15 points game system, he often calls for repowdering his grip handle, especially when his opponents are on good momentum. Another way is when his opponent is just about to flick serve, he often raises his hand to claim that he wasn't ready. Or when he wins a point, he walks around the backcourt to buy more time. I noticed that many umpires tried to warn him about his methods on buying time but he doesn't care, he pretends that he understood but in fact he doesn't speak a word of English. Thank god that someone like "Sergesa" came up with this post. IMHO, LD uses this method, which might seem unsignificant to many, but makes a big difference on disturbing the mental game of his strong opponents, especially those who emotionally don't cave in easily. Having said that, Peter Gade and Taufik Hidayat still rock over LD for their sportmandships. exactly.... but theres nothing much we can do about it :rolleyes:

[coops241180]

dear oh dear..

it's only a game guys..

i'm sure if you looked at every player in the top 5 for every discipline closely enough you could pick faults in them..

a point to note tho about the 'potentially' illegal lin dan serve

no umpire could call it unless the shuttle tumbled somewhat after he hits it. if it didn't tumble then you'd need a hi-speed camera to show the moment of impact on his racquet. and from multiple angles.

like somebody already said - if anybody that dan played against thought he was getting unfair advantage serving like this then they would complain.. and the service judge would keep a close eye on it.

Coops

[olle_whitehead]

two things come to mind as i read this

1) at world class level they do have service judges so its up to them to call his serve good/bad not the player therefore if the player serves faulty then they are not at fault it is the service judge

2) if in any match if the oppenant feels that it is a faulty serve especially at international level he will bring it to the attention of the umpire therefore even if his serve is faulty (which i dont think it is) surely his oppenants see no advantage gained and secondly dont see a fault themselves

[cooler]

two things come to mind as i read this

1) at world class level they do have service judges so its up to them to call his serve good/bad not the player therefore if the player serves faulty then they are not at fault it is the service judge

2) if in any match if the oppenant feels that it is a faulty serve especially at international level he will bring it to the attention of the umpire therefore even if his serve is faulty (which i dont think it is) surely his oppenants see no advantage gained and secondly dont see a fault themselves

exactly.
It's not player's fault to push things and test the limit.
We won't need umpire and service judge if all serve the same legal ways.

[sala_ryan]

Whats the difference actually by hitting the feathers first rather than the nose..?? Speed or spin thing??

[chessymonkey]

if u hit the feather first the bird will fly wiggling unnaturally
no real use as it is illegal

[taumax]

I've done a search and didn't find any conclusions about his serve.

I've watched many of his matches and his short backhand serve is from what I know, illegal.

If you watch his short backhand serve, he has a double serve motion.

According to the laws of badminton:

9.1.7 the movement of the server’s racket shall continue forwards from the start of the service (Law 9.2 (http://www.worldbadminton.com/ibf_laws.htm#9.2)) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3 (http://www.worldbadminton.com/ibf_laws.htm#9.3));

9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server’s racket head shall be the start of the service.

So if I understand the laws correctly, once you start start your service, and your racquet is coming forward, you cannot go backwards again.

I acknowledge that his service routine is very predictable and doesn't really fool anybody, but club level players might use him as an example to bolster their belief in using weird service motions to gain an advantage.

What does everybody think?

[DivingBirdie]

i think he still carried out the swing in one motion, though he may suddenly swing slower and suddenly faster...his racket doesn't move backwards that much actually

[taumax]

Anybackwards moving once forward motion has started is contrary to service rules!


i think he still carried out the swing in one motion, though he may suddenly swing slower and suddenly faster...his racket doesn't move backwards that much actually

[DoublesPlayer]

Lin Dan tricked Taufik Hidayat a few times by using his long serve, and Taufik got frustrated. I have to see Lin Dan's serve very closely to see if he violates the rule, but most likely he's fine.

[DinkAlot]

Doubt it or someone would have caught it during the past few years.

[ants]

LinDan's serve is definately legal. He dont have a double motion.

[jamesd20]

It is Borderline, and he does sometimes get Faulted for this in the game. Sometimes his "set to" is classified as the start of the service when he begins the serve quickly. Most of the time his "set to" is well before he begins his service motion begins, therfore perfectly legal.

BTW by "set to" I mean when he moves the shuttle, his racket and arm to the serving position.

[Eurasian =--(O)]

its a really tricky but legal serve. Try it for yourself it feels good to serve like that and is deceptive.

[cooler]

I wouldn't be doubting the service judges as they have the training and better view of LD's serve than anyone here

[ViningWolff]

Lin Dan has a double action that is very slight, but there a lot all the time. (I used to be service judge many moons ago)

He gets called on it every so often. Can't remember which match it was but he called twice on it.

Lin hardly serves a flick so it's a non issue.

There a pile of pro doubles players who have an outright ILLEGAL serve based on rules ( trying to use the whole "first rib" argument doesn't fly).

[DinkAlot]

Lin hardly serves a flick so it's a non issue.

Agree, non-issue for me. If a person's serve is illegal but is not a "weapon", it don't mind.

[ViningWolff]

There was a WS player from BC who used to have, I guess you'd call it a quadruple action serve, but she did it so consistenly and never served short she was almost never called on it.

[DoublesPlayer]

Lin Dan did this "double motion" serve again when playing against LHI in the 2006 Asian Games Team Event Final, first set at score 3 - 2 for LHI.

LHI complained to the Service Judge, and LD knows exactly what's going on, because LD stopped serving that way, he waited longer before doing the last motion.

But, there is a flaw in the law, it is not clearly defined how long the player has to be in the "ready" position before doing the last "serving motion".

[Neil Nicholls]

But, there is a flaw in the law, it is not clearly defined how long the player has to be in the "ready" position before doing the last "serving motion".
16.4.2
The umpire shall be the sole judge of any delay in play.

Giving exact times for things makes the laws clearer, but the game and the application of the laws more complicated. The umpire would have to continually consult a stopwatch to check how long the players took to do things.
Better to let the game flow and leave it up to the umpire's discretion.

[DoublesPlayer]

I have played against this kind of players who serve like Lin Dan, the umpire may not recognize/realize/experience the deception of the serve, but the opponent is affected/ distracted/troubled. Especially now that we play with the new scoring system, this kind of things matter even more. There should be a way to fix it, not necessarily giving exact time is the way to go. The update to the law should be simple and can be easily implemented, so that the service judge's discretion would be more consistent.


16.4.2
The umpire shall be the sole judge of any delay in play.

Giving exact times for things makes the laws clearer, but the game and the application of the laws more complicated. The umpire would have to continually consult a stopwatch to check how long the players took to do things.
Better to let the game flow and leave it up to the umpire's discretion.

[chessymonkey]

the thing is a call on serve = a point lose under the new system, and the line judges are being more cauious and think twice on calling illege serves then before up a point that interupting the flow and outcome of the game too much. Players are obviously taking advantage on it, espeically in doubles basically everyone is serving at the border line height where u can call it both way.
Then again since everyone is doing so, guess its nolonger an Advantage to either side so most line judges seems to be ok with those. I've seen a few that r being really straight with serving calls and those ones usually get bashed for ruining the game's flow..

[DoublesPlayer]

Playing badminton now is almost playing baseball ... :p ;) ...

Badminton depends on the service judge's call more now ... Baseball depends so much the Referee's calls whether it's strike or ball. :D

[Snowy21]

About the double motion thing on his back-hand service.... you realize maybe he doesn't actually jerk his hand back but rather just slows down alot in the middle of his swing first?

There's no rule saying it must be one smooth swing.... simply that it doesn't go backwards... you can swing quickly, slow down partway through the swing, then finish it....

[CoolDoo6]

The best of the best in all fields push the envelope of possibility. There is no exception in badminton. If LD pushes the envelope and gets away with it, that's perfectly fine in my book. If his opponents don't like it, they can push the envelope themselves. The top isn't for the meek.

As with most rules in life, these are there for the people at the top to break and the people at the bottom to follow. Let's not be too proud of our rule following credentials as it very quickly reveal precisely where we are in the grand scheme of the pecking order.

[Gollum]

Let's not be too proud of our rule following credentials as it very quickly reveal precisely where we are in the grand scheme of the pecking order.
Generally, club players break rules a lot more than professional players, who have to suffer the scrutiny of an umpire and service judge :p

I like the idea of "the grand scheme of the pecking order". Metaphors usually become less majestic when mixed, not more so :rolleyes:

[CoolDoo6]

Generally, club players break rules a lot more than professional players, who have to suffer the scrutiny of an umpire and service judge :p


The umpire and judges are more of a convinience than hinderence. On the whole, I think it is in their interest to let the game proceed than to nit pick on every marginal fault. If they do that, they are likely to be fired on the spot for obstructing public entertainment and decimating advertising and sponsorship revenues.

It is still easier for the professionals to cheat - to push the envelope - than for the regular Joe. The liability of the act becomes that of the judge and the player can continue conscience free. The regular Joe would not be so lucky - for he will be directly responsible for the act and suffer the consequence of any ill will. It is in the interest of the regular Joe to be fairer.



I like the idea of "the grand scheme of the pecking order". Metaphors usually become less majestic when mixed, not more so :rolleyes:

The pecking order isn't grand for the vast mjority. The intended irony clearly has hit the tramlines

[Gollum]

The umpire and judges are more of a convinience than hinderence. On the whole, I think it is in their interest to let the game proceed than to nit pick on every marginal fault. If they do that, they are likely to be fired on the spot for obstructing public entertainment and decimating advertising and sponsorship revenues.

Watch some real games. Umpires and service judges do pick up faults fairly ruthlessly, including faults such as the receiver moving before the serve has been delivered (which gives no real advantage to the receiver, who can easily be flicked).

Games are not dominated by "nitpicking" because professional players, on the whole, behave very well. They have an incentive to do so.

There is, of course, always some room for gamesmanship.


The pecking order isn't grand for the vast mjority. The intended irony clearly has hit the tramlines

CD, you live in a special world where your language makes sense. I'm sure that in your world, that was splendidly witty.

[jerby]

well, the wya I see it:

-How many recreactional players get faulted during regular (state/county/national) competition? my counter is 0 so far...
-how many pro's have their serve's faulted? I guess about 1 fault per 3 matches...

why the top figure is so low? a combination of ethics...and ignorance...
why isn't the top figure sky-high? because the pro's stop pushing the limit after a fault (or two..) and/or they know the limits well...

[aznjjchan]

Lin Dan, a top player isn't relying on his so-called "illegal serves" to win rallies. his serves project the same outcome, just over the net or high and deep on the court. there is no problem, there is no "funny" movements, so i would say it is valid. and Lin Dan has been playing for 5 or 6 years and i'm sure the service judge would have called this faulty serve long ago. But i guess it's always good to keep your eye opened. Nice try.

[aznjjchan]

CD's language is probably translated with using a translator cos he doesnt speak English. poor man

[jgao_net]

About the double motion thing on his back-hand service.... you realize maybe he doesn't actually jerk his hand back but rather just slows down alot in the middle of his swing first?

There's no rule saying it must be one smooth swing.... simply that it doesn't go backwards... you can swing quickly, slow down partway through the swing, then finish it....
i think you're wrong with your second statement. when moving your racket back for the serve, it can be as slow as you want it to be but the forward motion has to be one smooth hit. you cant abruptly stop, and then continue your swing.

[Dummey]

i think you're wrong with your second statement. when moving your racket back for the serve, it can be as slow as you want it to be but the forward motion has to be one smooth hit. you cant abruptly stop, and then continue your swing.

9.1.7 the movement of the server’s racket shall continue forwards from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);

That is the offical ruling, so yes the racket does have to move foward, but it never says it has to be smooth. Under this law, you can start the serve and move extremely slow for 5 seconds before hitting the bird as long as it is moving foward the whole time.

[cheongsa]

Indeed, the racquet's approach to the shuttle can be along an 'S' curve. This will really throw the receiver off...

[CoolDoo6]

Indeed, the racquet's approach to the shuttle can be along an 'S' curve. This will really throw the receiver off...

Or even better, a W turned side ways curve service would be even more deadly.

[jgao_net]

9.1.7 the movement of the server’s racket shall continue forwards from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);

That is the offical ruling, so yes the racket does have to move foward, but it never says it has to be smooth. Under this law, you can start the serve and move extremely slow for 5 seconds before hitting the bird as long as it is moving foward the whole time.
so, by this definition, if you're in the middle of your forward swing, you can all of a sudden stop, wait half a second and then flick it, as long as the racket is moving forward?

that's contrary to what i was taught. my coach always told me that the forward swing has to be one smooth continuous swing.

[CWB001]

so, by this definition, if you're in the middle of your forward swing, you can all of a sudden stop, wait half a second and then flick it, as long as the racket is moving forward?

that's contrary to what i was taught. my coach always told me that the forward swing has to be one smooth continuous swing.

Well, quite clearly if you stop the swing the forward motion of the racquet is not continuous, so that would be a fault.

It is almost impossible to continue a forward swing at a number of different speeds without stopping the forward motion or screwing up the serve so this is not really a practical issue, is it?

[Dummey]

Well, quite clearly if you stop the swing the forward motion of the racquet is not continuous, so that would be a fault.

It is almost impossible to continue a forward swing at a number of different speeds without stopping the forward motion or screwing up the serve so this is not really a practical issue, is it?

Well, I believe that it's a very practical issue because we are talking about world class players who have near perfect control of the racket. I mean think about a shot from the back line. Good deception would be looking like you are going to clear, but slow down mid swing getting ready for a down the line drop then close to the end speed up the swing and snap causing a slice resulting in a cross court drop.

[CWB001]

Well, I believe that it's a very practical issue because we are talking about world class players who have near perfect control of the racket. I mean think about a shot from the back line. Good deception would be looking like you are going to clear, but slow down mid swing getting ready for a down the line drop then close to the end speed up the swing and snap causing a slice resulting in a cross court drop.

But the laws regarding the serve make this kind of thing even more difficult in serving. And not really worth the risk of faulting.

How many players do you think can achieve this perfect racquet control in the serve? Do you have a video of them doing it?

[azabaz_ipoh]

To Each His Own. We All Have Faults. Plus, If The Opponents Dont Object, Why Should We?

[Dummey]

But the laws regarding the serve make this kind of thing even more difficult in serving. And not really worth the risk of faulting.

How many players do you think can achieve this perfect racquet control in the serve? Do you have a video of them doing it?

I don't see why this would be hard nor of it as an additional risk. The ability to change speed during the stroke is nothing more then muscle control which I believe anybody can do. Why? Because every string instrument player out there that can get pass "mary had a lil lamb" can play consecutive notes in one draw. This is in essense the same motion, a single foward (or backwards) motion that involve variation in speed.

[CWB001]

I'm not sure your idea of playing a bowed stringed instrument is very accurate. Changes of bowing speed come for whole bow strokes. And muliple notes are played on every stroke becasue the bow touches more than one string AND the player is fingering with the other hand. This is nothing to do with changing the bow speed within a stroke.

In any event, these actions are the whole business of a violinist (for example) - they practise just this.

The additional risk is that you can be faulted on a serve. In the case of a normal shot you have the luxury of being able to perform multiple backlifts and can stop forward motion at any time. The only penalty is that you might mess up the shot.

In the case of a service, you can mess up the shot AND if you do a second backlift you lose the point.

And slowing the forward motion and then speeding it up again (particularly in the case of a backhand serveice action) is extremely difficult.

[JaCk™]

It is hard for service judge to notice the fault. Only replays will be able to detect. As usual, human errors. But looking at replays will cause the game to be delayed a little while. Good for players but bad for badminton live coverage.

[Mark A]

Watching Lin's backhand serve this evening on my All England 2007 recordings, I began to notice this very same "double action" backhand serve myself.

As I understand it, once the racket head has started to move forwards, it CANNOT move backwards again until AFTER the bird has been hit. Several times, though, Lin Dan very clearly addresed the shuttle with a serve-like practice motion before hitting it - anybody who wants proof of this can watch the final with Chen Yu, for example. Not once was he pulled up, though, AND it was evident without the aid of replays!

I'm not even going to entertain the notion that LD is cheating - he just doesn't NEED to! - but a simple bad habit might be to blame (I myself have an insane serve at my disposal that starts as a BH and turns into a FH, and for over a month it was called every time).

If LD's serve breaks the rules, then it should be called (or why have rules at all) but, to be honest, it would be a simple enough adjustment for him to make.

[cooler]

If LD's serve breaks the rules, then it should be called (or why have rules at all) but, to be honest, it would be a simple enough adjustment for him to make.

r u saying the service judge turn the blind eye on all of LD's matches?

[Mark A]

I VERY much doubt that! It might be that it's just too fast for them to detect, but if I can spot it ...

I don't know how well the All England was covered on TV outside the UK, but can I swear to any/all gods that I spotted at least half a dozen in his final against Chen Yu (can anybody who saw that match step in and corroborate? please:D?).

It's all too easy to go after the top dog, I know, but I don't think anybody on BC would stoop to it, especially since Lin Dan is probably one of the best ambassadors the game has ever had - a true gentleman, makes a huge amount of time for his (numerous) fans, and clearly loves badminton. All I will say is that the 2007 AE Final contained enough dubious serves for me to post here, and that's only one match in his prolific career...

(In all seriousness, anybody with access to that match I mentioned should watch it carefully...)

[cooler]

I VERY much doubt that! It might be that it's just too fast for them to detect, but if I can spot it ...

I don't know how well the All England was covered on TV outside the UK, but can I swear to any/all gods that I spotted at least half a dozen in his final against Chen Yu (can anybody who saw that match step in and corroborate? please:D?).

It's all too easy to go after the top dog, I know, but I don't think anybody on BC would stoop to it, especially since Lin Dan is probably one of the best ambassadors the game has ever had - a true gentleman, makes a huge amount of time for his (numerous) fans, and clearly loves badminton. All I will say is that the 2007 AE Final contained enough dubious serves for me to post here, and that's only one match in his prolific career...

(In all seriousness, anybody with access to that match I mentioned should watch it carefully...)
i think the best person to notice it is chen yu himself and make complain to the umpire. Since he did not do that, it's water under the table. In the end, the best man won anyway.

[Tsumaranai]

That's true, also it's merely a serve, it did not characterize the rallies or the match, which you can't really cheat in.