are we approaching a new era of the 4 "heavenly kings"? [Archive]

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kwun

01-24-2007, 03:02 AM

Blurry D

01-24-2007, 03:17 AM

Hmm kwun good thought there.... So PGC is like Morten Frost??

Talking aabout the older era, I adore Park Ju Bong and Kim Bong Su...I think they were like FU/Cai..or maybe it was the other way round..

cao ci dan

01-24-2007, 03:21 AM

Dreamzz

01-24-2007, 04:07 AM

with possibly a second tier of heavenly princes, i would say BCL, CH, CJ and perhaps KJ fall into this category.

and yeah, even though it may sound unpatriotic, LCW has not been consistent enough over the last few tournaments to justify his position there.

yy_ling

01-24-2007, 06:12 AM

Gade definitely like Morten Frost both from denmark, but quite a different attitude

llpjlau

01-24-2007, 06:16 AM

I'm not gonna agree LCW as 'heavenly king'...maybe 'little heavenly king'...and all the Malaysians...please don't bash me!:p
of course LCW is among the best....just what else did he won besides MO and other tournaments without some top players??!!
:) peace!
in football (soccer), Sport Club Internacional - a football club from south america won the World Club Championships recently in the finals againts spanish giants Barcelona. and the world club championships is a championship where the clubs who won their respective continental titles take part. so does Internacional winning the title justify them as the best football club in the world? i am sure the top english premier league clubs can beat internacional with no problems at all - the likes of arsenal, chelsea, man utd and probably even liverpool.

I'm not gonna agree Internacional as 'best club in the world'...maybe 'half best club'...and all the brazilians...please don't bash me!:p
of course internacional is among the best....just what else did internacional win besides the World Club Championships and other tournaments without some top clubs?
however, in the football world they are still considered the best club in the world for the 2006 season.

anyway, i do respect your opinion on LCW being a 'heavenly king', i'm just expressing my view as well.;)

Qidong

01-24-2007, 04:12 PM

abedeng

01-24-2007, 08:24 PM

Only difference is, Icuk Sugiarto still won a World title in 83. LCW hasn't reached that yet.

I think we should put Bao, CH and Kenneth in as well, instead of 4, it becomes 7 kings. Reason is these players are consistent enough to reach at least q-finals for every tournament they played in. And from then onwards, they almost always beat each other, and they typically do not lose to anyone else.

CJ is a bit too young, his record is not established yet, maybe another year. And LHI, Hafiz are both either inconsistent or not played in too many tournaments.

GunBlade008

01-24-2007, 08:33 PM

Although I somewhat agree to this statement, I still think that if there was a top 4 of those 7 players, it would be Taufik, Lin Dan, LCW and Peter Gade

Only difference is, Icuk Sugiarto still won a World title in 83. LCW hasn't reached that yet.

I think we should put Bao, CH and Kenneth in as well, instead of 4, it becomes 7 kings. Reason is these players are consistent enough to reach at least q-finals for every tournament they played in. And from then onwards, they almost always beat each other, and they typically do not lose to anyone else.

CJ is a bit too young, his record is not established yet, maybe another year. And LHI, Hafiz are both either inconsistent or not played in too many tournaments.

hcyong

01-24-2007, 08:39 PM

cooler

01-24-2007, 09:11 PM

If you are going to name 3 heavenly kings, few would contend the combination of LD, TH and PG. But if you need to add another heavenly king, it is hard to name a candidate that is more deserved than LCW. Maybe only Chen Hong can contend for this last spot.i was about to post the same view. I wouldnt slot LCW in the same catergory as LD, TH, PG but just a passing spurt of excellence like XZX. CH is consistently better than LCW. CH has the skill set to beat LD, PG, TH, BCL, KJ. I dunno if CH played LCW before.

GunBlade008

01-25-2007, 01:16 AM

CH beat LCW in All England 2005 in Semis in 2 sets

Malaysianfan

01-25-2007, 06:49 AM

CH beat LCW in All England 2005 in Semis in 2 sets

I think LCW has beaten CHen Hong before in MOif i am not mistaken.

Dreamzz

01-25-2007, 07:19 AM

Malaysianfan

01-25-2007, 07:23 AM

Dreamzz

01-25-2007, 08:01 AM

hmmmm, i didn't put him in the list because i find his game quite inconsistent. he's a bit like hafiz, when he's on form, he can beat anyone, like when he beat LD in Doha. but most of the time i've found his performances to yo-yo a lot. that's just my opinion anyways.

bananaboy

01-25-2007, 02:50 PM

so we have 3 tiers apparently:

tier 1
------
LD, TH and PG

tier 2
------
CH and LCW

tier 3
------
BCL, KJ, CY and CJ

i just thought i'd throw CY in for some controversy!
;)

i would find it hard to see anyone other than these guys winning a tournament that featured them, other than through injury of course.
I don't know if KJ really belongs in the same group as Bao, Chen Jin... as the last time KJ won a tournament was way back in 2004... That's a long time ago.:p

I am surprised that Mr. Runner-up doesn't even belong in the "runner-up" tier group, although he did manage to live up to his role very often during 2005,2006 and won the Korean open.:p

Syaoran_Style

01-25-2007, 04:31 PM

Kenneth Jonassen won the singapore open in 2005 =p

Well .. i think we must reduce it to the "3 heavenly kings" .. ( I guess Kwun you also wanted to refer to the HK singer Aaron Kwok, Andy Lau .. etcc ahaha) But here it's quite impossible ..

I also want to add Bao Chunlai because, even though he's "Mr Runner Up" .. being finalist is a very good result and he gave good results this year .. but Lin Dan, Taufik Hidayat and Peter Gade have this "Charisma" that put them in a higher step. I guess LD TH and PG became Badminton Legend but Bao Chunlai isn't (in my opinion .. Please don't misunderstood me I really like Bao Chunlai !I love his style but it's just fact .. at least to me lol)
About Lee Chong Wei he had a good year in 2005 and the beginning of 2006, he's always a top class player but he didn't keep that consistancy.

bananaboy

01-25-2007, 05:36 PM

emmsfan

02-02-2007, 07:23 AM

I agree that KJ shouldn't be in. And although Chen Jin is young, he already has the skill. As he grows older, he will definitely be more consistent... So i think he should definitely be in.........

sshuang90

02-02-2007, 05:05 PM

LCW? Give me a break.

virtualkidneys!

02-04-2007, 12:40 PM

chen jin shouldnt be up there yet but very soon he definitly will be up there.Hes ranked no.2 in the world at the moment so he almost there he jst needs the practice to be able to beat lin dan and gade more often.

Blurry D

02-05-2007, 12:48 AM

I would think that KJ would me the last era as he will be pahsed out pretty soon. CJ i think he will be the next yang yang..He is so young and he is already world no 2...One thing i really like about him is that he smiles after every match.It does not matter he lose or win.. he will always have a geniuen smile on his face.......He is amazing!!!!

kimpe_bultang

02-20-2007, 01:34 AM

Well, actually, I think that Henry Saputra should be in that too.. He was a great plyr, and now is a great coach!! He's beaten Yang Yang quite a bunch of times, and Yang Yang has nvr beaten him..:D :D It is just too bad that he got injuries, and couldn't play anymore!! :o :p

And I agree with Syaoran (Tarek), haha, Bao Chunlai is also great.. He's improving now, and has always tried his best... :D he has improved on his 'concentration', now he can concentrate more, last time.. He could just 'blank out' suddenly in the game.. He really has improved!! :cool:

sabathiel

02-21-2007, 12:24 AM

back in the mid to late 80s, there were the 4 "heavenly kings" of badminton, Icuk Sugiato, Morten Frost, Yang Yang and Zhao Jinhua. these guys revolves around each other and share majority of the title. other players like Xiong Guobao comes in a take a title or two but never manage to reach the similar status.

I wouldn't say Icuk Sugiarto is in the same league as Yang Yang, Zhao Jianhua or Morten Frost Hansen. Icuk has been labelled in Indonesia as a one hit wonder. The only major title that Icuk won was the 1983 World Championship by beating Liem Swie King 18-17 in the third game. That victory was stained by widespread rumours that the 20 year old Icuk at the time only beat Swie King in the final because Swie King was "pressured" or "forced" (Indonesian/Javanese style) to lose and give Icuk the title. Those who watched the final suspect this because Swie King gave the impression that he threw away the match at 17-17 in the third game by obviously hitting the shuttle out. The rumour was that the government wanted Icuk to win because he was a native Indonesian and Swie King was a Chinese Indonesian. Until Icuk won the 1983 World Championships no native Indonesian had ever won a major badminton title while numeorus Chinese Indonesians had done so. The government for the reasons of national pride and raising the profile of badminton amongst native Indonesians preferred Icuk to win rather than Swie King.

After winning the 1983 World Title Icuk's form plummeted because he was treated like royalty and didn't trained hard enough. He often lost to obscure players such as the later doubles specialist Tian Bing Yi in the early round of All England. Never won against Yang Yang. He was often abused by the Indonesian crowd in Jakarta when he lost to players from other countries to tears. Judging from his resume Icuk wouldn't be classified as a great player in the class of Yang Yang, Zhao JianHua or Morten Frost Hansen.

Linus

02-21-2007, 02:18 AM

It's an interesting topic to talk about the current 4 "Heavenly King" in MS. I guess Kuwn took the concept from the Hong Kong Canton Pop Music where the titles are usually decided by the number of songs that won then awards or top the charts. If we used the same criteria and look at the results of main badminton tournament in 2005/2006, this is what we have in the attachement.

Note: I only included the 5* and 6* events, plus All England and the other major events.

By number of major titles won, the order of merit would be:
(1) LD, clearly miles ahead of the rest with 10 titles out of 27
(2/3) TH and CH, joint second with 4 titles each
(4) LCW, 3 titles
(5/6) PG and LHI, joint 5th position with 2 titles each
(7/8) CJ and BCL with 1 title each

So at the end of 2006, the 4 "Heavenly King" should be LD, TH, CH and LCW.

But since CH has retired, who will fill the 4th spot? Personally I would argue PG would deserve that spot as he has always there or thereabout in major events, although age is catching up with him. Not to mention he just won the MO in January.

For the start of 2007, I would vote for LD, TH, LCW and PG.

kimpe_bultang

02-21-2007, 02:22 AM

I would vote for Lin Dan, Lee Chong Wei, Peter Gades and Bao Chunlai.. Taufik is not consistent.. Smtimes he's great, other times he's lousy.. You know what I mean..

Loh

02-21-2007, 03:55 AM

I was looking at the MS results of the AE (being the most prestigious then) during which periods the players mentioned by Kwun were prominent and the following was the picture:

Yesteryear

1982 MORTEN FROST DEN
1983 LUAN JIN CHN
1984 MORTEN FROST DEN
1985 ZHAO JIANHUA CHN
1986 MORTEN FROST DEN
1987 MORTEN FROST DEN
1988 I. FREDERIKSEN DEN
1989 YANG YANG CHN
1990 ZHAO JIANHUA CHN

Sugiarto was nowhere in sight, whilst Frost won 4 times, Zhao twice and the popular Yang, only once. Maybe if we take into account the other less prestigious IBF Grand Prix events, the picture may improve, but I doubt by much.

Morten Frost was by far the most consistent, better than Yang Yang, it would appear. Of course, Frost was playing in more familiar European territory. And if we take into account Zhao's two wins against none from Taufik Hidayat thus far, Zhao appeared to have not only the flair and talent, he also had better consistency. And I would add, greater determination as his second AE win came 5 years after! ;)

It was then a battle for supremacy in MS between Denmark and China and it was Denmark which won 5 titles to 4! Indonesia and Malaysia were not as dominant somehow.

This Era

1999 PETER GADE DEN
2000 XIA XUANZE CHN
2001 PULLELA GOPICHAND IND
2002 CHEN HONG CHN
2003 MUHD HAFIZ HASHIM MAS
2004 LIN DAN CHN
2005 CHEN HONG CHN
2006 LIN DAN CHN

Under "This Era" more title holders (6) appeared during the last 8 years than the 5 champions during the 9-year period under "Yesteryear".

But Chen Hong and Lin Dan both won twice. Chen Hong got my vote for being the more determined winner over his younger compatriot, Lin Dan, in 2005. And it is sad that he should retire now when he could be more than a match to any of the top players.

Maybe Taufik's name will be added to the AE honours roll this year to make it 7 different holders and justify "This Era" for men's singles as being more competitive than before. If TH should win, he will certainly hold the prestigious record of being the AE, WC and Olympic champion -one very difficult to be broken thereafter! By all accounts, TH is working very hard to make his dream come true, and if he is as determined as Zhao Jianhao, TH deserved to be the greatest!

What more, with the new 21-point rally scoring system, more upsets are in the offing as when WR1, Lin Dan was abruptly disposed of by South Korea's Park Sung Hwan in the first Super Series, the Malaysia Open! :D

sabathiel

02-21-2007, 06:39 AM

Whilst Yang Yang has only won All England once this is compensated by winning the prestigious World Championships two times consecutively (the only player to date who has achieved this) in 1987 and 1989. Zhao Jian Hua also has won the World Championships in 1991 and won All England twice in 1985 and 1990. The 5 years gap of Zhao Jianhua's All England victories is due to the fact that he wasn't playing international badminton for a few years for reasons only the Chinese badminton establishment knew (there was a rumour saying that he tried to defect to the West or that he was ill). Morten Frost Hansen never won the World Championships but was runner-up twice in 1985 and 1987. Icuk Sugiarto apart from losing in the first round of All England after winning the 1983 World Championships to Tian Bing Yi (later Li Yong Bo's doubles partner) has never made it to the All England finals. I can't even recall Icuk winning lesser prestigious tournaments after his triumph at the 1983 World Championships in Copenhagen. I am also almost sure that Icuk has never won against his nemesis Yang Yang as Icuk has problems playing against left handers. Icuk's other notable achievement is making the semifinals of the World Championships in 1987 and 1989.

Loh

02-21-2007, 08:40 PM

Following Sabathiel's elaboration on Yang Yang, I searched the web and found a detailed writeup on his achievements in the Yang Yang UK badminton product website:

"The former World Badminton Champion. He is the only badminton player in the world that has won all the major tournament titles which include All England Championships, World Championship, Grand Prix Final, World Cup Championship, and Olympic Champion. He has a record of winning more than 23 international championships.

A former Malaysia National Badminton Coach who helped the nation to win the Thomas Cup in 1992 after 25 years.

Nowadays Yang Yang focuses on both his own range of branded products and coaching badminton. His enthusiasm for game is still as strong as ever."

His titles include.....

1984 CHINA NATIONAL BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
1985 HONG KONG OPEN HONG KONG
1986 THOMAS CUP INDONESIA
1986 WORLD GRAND PRIX FINALS MALAYSIA
1986 JAPAN OPEN JAPAN
1986 HONG KONG OPEN HONG KONG
1986 CHINA NATIONAL BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
1987 WORLD BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
1987 SWEDEN OPEN SWEDEN
1987 MALAYSIA OPEN MALAYSIA
1987 INDONESIA OPEN INDONESIA
1987 CHINA NATIONAL GAMES CHINA
1988 OLYMPIC DEMONSTRATION KOREA
1988 THOMAS CUP MALAYSIA
1988 WORLD CUP THAILAND
1988 SINGAPORE OPEN SINGAPORE
1989 AUSTRALIA 200 ANNIVERSARY INVITATION AUSTRALIA
1989 WORLD BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS INDONESIA
1989 WORLD CUP CHINA
1989 ALL ENGLAND CHAMPIONSHIPS U.K.
1989 JAPAN OPEN JAPAN
1990 THOMAS CUP JAPAN
1990 ASIAN GAMES CHINA

Indeed Yang Yang would have been the greatest among his peers if we judged him for winning the three most prestigious titles during his time: AE, WC and Olympics (even though it was a Demonstration Sport in the 1988 Seoul Olympics. Badminton only officially became a medal sport in the 1992 Barcelona Olympics and the famous Indonesian couple, Alan Budikusuma and Susi Susanti won the MS and WS gold medal respectively.)

So now we have to await Taufik Hidayat's turn to emulate Yang Yang if the former should win the forthcoming AE at Birmingham. :)

sabathiel

02-21-2007, 09:22 PM

Don't forget Lin Dan would also emulate Yang Yang if Lin Dan wins the Olympic gold in Beijing 2008 as Lin Dan would have won All England, World Championships and Olympic Gold. I suppose with All England 07 is just around the corner we would have to wait and see if Taufik can capture this year's title. Taufik already stated that he would retire after Beijing 2008 but I wonder if he would carry on if by then he still hasn't won All England yet. Taufik is still young enough to play another 4 years after Beijing 2008.

I wonder if winning All England, World Championships and Olympic Gold during one's career is a measure of greatness if Yang Yang, Taufik and Lin Dan have achieved that? Maybe if it becomes a common achievement we have to wait for ground breaking All England titles such as done by Rudy Hartono, 7 consecutive titles and 8 overall titles or winning the World Championships 3 times in a row (breaking Yang Yang's record of 2 consecutive World titles). The difference is now the World Championships is held every year instead of every 2 years during Yang Yang's time.

ctjcad

02-21-2007, 10:03 PM

Joyous

02-21-2007, 10:14 PM

In my opinion failing to win one of the major titles (OG, WC, AE) doesn't equate he/she is not a great player. As the saying goes 'to be in the right place at the right time' also applies to a player. To be in the right frame in all aspects in any tournaments is so crucial.
The recent MO in Kl is a fine example. TH & LD are both great players but they were drawn to meet in the 1st round...and the result could have gone in TH's favour. And then again, LD failed in the 2nd round but bounce back at the KO.
But if statistics is to be a benchmark, Yang Yang's consistency in winning tournaments overshadows Zhao JH's pure talent and skills. I don't believe that any professional badminton player would in his right sense of mind only target certain tournaments in his career & forego trying to do well in general.

Loh

02-21-2007, 10:25 PM

Yes indeed if a player can win the AE, WC and Olympics titles during his career, and if we have to compare who is the greatest, it will be the number of times that he has won in these three events.

As we have debated before whether Taufik Hidayat is greater than Rudy Hartono, I agree that Rudy's consistent record at the AE has no peer, the AE then being the unofficial world championships as there was no World Championships nor the Olympics for badminton as we now have.

Rudy's AE record:

1965 E. KOPS DEN
1966 TAN AIK HUANG MAS
1967 E. KOPS DEN
1968 RUDY HARTONO INA
1969 RUDY HARTONO INA
1970 RUDY HARTONO INA
1971 RUDY HARTONO INA
1972 RUDY HARTONO INA
1973 RUDY HARTONO INA
1974 RUDY HARTONO INA
1975 S. PRI DEN
1976 RUDY HARTONO INA
1977 FLEMMING DELFS DEN
1978 LIEM SWIE KING INA
1979 LIEM SWIE KING INA
1980 PRAKASH PADUKONE IND
1981 LIEM SWIE KING INA

Loh

02-21-2007, 10:32 PM

...true, the past great players have their own achievements and greatness as we can't take anything away from them...:cool:
..but for one Taufik, *IF* he wins the upcoming AE, he'll probably go down in badminton history as arguably the *only* shuttler(MS) to ever win, not only the AE, WC & OG titles but winning the AG(Asian Games), not only once but back-to-back, as well(eventhough some would argue that the AG title doesn't really count much and its not a IBF/BWF sanctioned event; though another CHN shuttler also won it back to back)..;) :cool:

I think to be more representative, an event should not exclude others not belonging to the group. Events like the SEA Games, the Commonwealth Games and even the Asian Games are not representative in this sense as a badminton powerhouse like Denmark is excluded from participating.

Loh

02-21-2007, 10:38 PM

sabathiel

02-21-2007, 10:50 PM

Here is an analysis of Taufik Hidayat by Wikipedia, it is interesting to note that Taufik says that Lin Dan is the best player ever:

"To some fans, Taufik is perhaps the world's most spontaneously innovative badminton singles player today. According to them, Taufik does not use the methodical play adopted by Chinese players like Lin Dan (much like Ivan Lendl's tennis style), Taufik plays a natural game, full of grace, anticipation, freshness and risks. He is the only first-rung player who retains the 15-point style of play in the revised, current 21 point system.
Taufik's strengths lie primarily in his powerful backhand, his tapped forehand drop shot and tantalising net-play. His weaknesses lie is his reluctance to kill from high forehand clears, his impatience with loud crowds and his penchant for returning a net dribble with a net dribble, even when the opponent is dangerously close to the net.
In many ways, Taufik's style mirrors the prowling athleticism of one of the greatest players ever to grace the badminton court - Zhao Jianhua. Like Zhao, Taufik looks lazy, moves lazily and wins lazily. But, except when he is annoyed or distracted, Taufik (like Zhao) is anything but lazy. The tactician in him is better than the athlete in him. This is probably why he makes more unforced errors than any other player at his level of ability and skill. (BN)
Hidayat is known for his relaxed smooth playing style and is one of the best all round players in the world. According to many players he has the ability to win against any player in the world when he really sets his mind to it. On the other hand he can lose to lower ranked players when he is not completely focused. His lack of consistency and mental fortitude are often points of criticism. Because of this reputation, many fans believe that if Taufik loses a match to any player it is as much because he didn't care enough as that he was truly beaten. Taufik publicly stated in 2006 that Lin Dan is the best player ever in the world but also described him as being arrogant widely disliked other players. (Taufik was defeated three times by Lin Dan in 2006, at the Thomas Cup semi-final tie, Japan Open final and the Hong Kong Open where Taufik forfeited the match after what he thought was a bad line call at 4-1 to Lin in the first game. Taufik defeated Lin Dan in the final of the 2006 Asian Games individual event on December 9 after losing twice to him in three days in the team event preliminaries and semi-finals and dedicated the sweet victory to his father-in-law and chief of the national sports council, Agum Gumelar.)"

I have had an argument about who is the greatest before and come to the conclusion that Rudy Hartono is the greatest. One of the benchmark that I use as well as the critics used is this player must be overwhelmingly dominant during his/her era. Using this criteria it is beyond dispute that Rudy Hartono was overwhelmingly dominant during his era just like Roger Federer, Pele, Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan in their respective sports. Taufik while being a great player doesn't deserve the mantle of the greatest because he is erratic, inconsistent and doesn't truly dominate badminton during his era. To be judged the greatest that player must have the aura of invincibility apparent from his/her record and titles won. Defeat must be something that doesn't come easy to this player. Playing style is not a credible criteria to judge greatness as the most recent players would have benefited from the game played by past players and thus would be technically better as well as more exciting to watch.

Linus

02-21-2007, 10:56 PM

I think the record of Rudy Hartono speaks for itself. His achievement in badminton esp. in AE have also been recognised in a bigger way thru the Times' Asian Heroes (http://www.yonex.com/pdf/RudyHartono.pdf)

But let's not forget too during that era we weree missing then the sleeping giant, China, who were struggling with internal turmoil and invisible from the international areana. We all remember what happened when China enter the badminton world by storm in the 80s when they showcase the likes of Luan Jin and Han Jian. I mean they dont suddenly obtain that level of skill out of the blue and who knows what would have happened in the 70s if China players were participating in AE.

I am not trying to diminish Rudy's achievment, which was amazing by any standard. But we need to look at that in proper context.

The badminton, and to the same extent, the sports world were truely representing the "world" in the 80s after China, the largest populated country joined the global village.

I agree with Loh that in order to objectively compare the top players achievement, we need to include those events that are open to all (and thus exclude the likes of SEA games and Asia games/championship). In today's context, we also need to include those major opens 5*, 6* and 7*, which will no doubt draw in the best players because of the price money on offer. See my earlier post #26 that compare the major titles for 2005/2006.

I have included the Asian tournament and should have taken that out. But that would not have altered the overall ranking of the current top 4 players and LD is still the most dominant and consistant MS player at this moment.

ctjcad

02-21-2007, 11:19 PM

I think to be more representative, an event should not exclude others not belonging to the group. Events like the SEA Games, the Commonwealth Games and even the Asian Games are not representative in this sense as a badminton powerhouse like Denmark is excluded from participating.
..sounds reasonable enough...;)

But we are talking about their entire career which could span 10 years or more. A player needs to be at his best to win tournaments. The top professionals would want to pit their skills at the highest level and the three specific events mentioned provide this opportunity. Only the best at that point in time can win! :)
..true but, IMO, if one can win those 3 titles, sure, personally i would rank him/her as "one of the greatest". Why not?? Winning just 1 of them is difficult enough, imagine winning all 3(i know the Olympics didn't start til abt 15 yrs ago)...Because if i think abt it, how can we judge players from 1 generation to another?? How abt the olden greats like Tan Xin Fu & Hou Chia Chiang and all his competitors??..Are we excluding what they've accomplished??..:confused: ;)

sabathiel

02-21-2007, 11:22 PM

I read the article about Rudy Hartono in Linus' post. Adding to the criteria of greatness (ie being dominant) that I already mentioned is the obstacles and hardship that Rudy Hartono had to encounter coming from a relatively poor country and humble background with little resources and support to begin with compared to rich countries like England or Denmark or even the more prosperous Malaysia.

It is true that Rudy's record title numbers is marred by the fact that China was not part of the international badminton fraternity but if we look closer this doesn't tarnish Rudy's achievements. Indonesia, Malaysia and Denmark were badminton powerhouses and Rudy dominated the players from all those countries. China was a badminton giant but their top players, Hou Chia Chiang and Tang Xin Fu, were on the decline due to old age when Rudy emerged as the dominant force in world badminton. So Rudy Hartono truly was the dominant force in the world during that particular era. Sure, Rudy's achievements would have been more solid had China joined the IBF but we should not take anything away from Rudy's achievements as his inclusion to Time magazine 60 years of Asian Heroes. Even way past his prime, at 31, Rudy manage to win the 1980 World Championships by beating Liem Swie King who was in his prime in straight games under 10. After all the experts have good reasons to call Rudy "the maestro" and is considered a "badminton phenomenon".

ctjcad

02-21-2007, 11:22 PM

(rest of post snipped for brevity)

Here is an analysis of Taufik Hidayat by Wikipedia, it is interesting to note that Taufik says that Lin Dan is the best player ever:
:)..hehe, sabathiel, i just remember, your reference was also snipped by another BC member in another thread(ah, forgot the member's screen-name)..:D ;)

sabathiel

02-21-2007, 11:35 PM

..sounds reasonable enough...;)

..Because if i think abt it, how can we judge players from 1 generation to another??

By judging how they react and deal with the challenges presented to them during their era and coming up with the results based on what resources were available to them. It is true that different eras present themselves with different challenges (some eras might have harder challenges) and different level of support or resources and hence different quality of results but I believe that humans in general or great sportspersons have the ability to adapt to their environment and thus would have worked harder to overcome the challenges that they encounter at the time. Their determination to overcome their opponents, discipline in training and mental strength are crucial to their success as well as intelligence in executing their game plan. The more competitive the sport is the better these greats sporstpersons will become because greater competition leads to greater determination and greater determination leads to greater sporting prowess.

ctjcad

02-21-2007, 11:39 PM

(rest of post snipped for brevity)

:)..hehe, sabathiel, i just remember, your reference was also snipped by another BC member in another thread(ah, forgot the member's screen-name)..:D ;)
...here it is, posted by Oldhand: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=491450#post491450 (post #65)..;) :D

ctjcad

02-21-2007, 11:43 PM

By judging how they react and deal with the challenges presented to them during their era and coming up with the results based on what resources were available to them. It is true that different eras present themselves with different challenges (some eras might have harder challenges) and different level of support or resources and hence different quality of results but I believe that humans in general or great sportspersons have the ability to adapt to their environment and thus would have worked harder to overcome the challenges that they encounter at the time. Their determination to overcome their opponents, discipline in training and mental strength are crucial to their success as well as intelligence in executing their game plan. The more competitive the sport is the better these greats sporstpersons will become because greater competition leads to greater determination and greater determination leads to greater sporting prowess.
...IMO, the only way we, as fans and supporters of the game, can "judge" them, is simply to look at what they've accomplished/garnered during their professional playing careers...I think whatever those are should be more than enough for us to "measure" their "history" or some would say their "greatness"..;):cool:

sabathiel

02-22-2007, 12:05 AM

ctjcad

02-22-2007, 12:30 AM

I am not talking about "judging" from the perspective of fans and supporters of the game but rather from the point of view of experts. Having said this my elaboration on how to judge a players greatness include th players accomplishment as this is the objective manifestation of the various measure that I have mentioned.
:confused:(looking around)...who's saying "experts"??..certainly not me; i'm just a fan and supporter of the game..:p ;)
And yeah, the statement i've highlighted in bold, i think you and i can somewhat agree on that..;)

sabathiel

02-22-2007, 12:46 AM

I am interested in who the experts say is the greatest player because this has a higher value in terms of their judgement. In this case the players themselves of at least a credible level (past and present), the coaches, the badminton administrators, badminton historians etc can guide badminton fans or supporters in coming to the conclusion as to who is the greatest

chris-ccc

02-22-2007, 01:59 AM

kwun

02-22-2007, 02:08 AM

Hi kwun,

Talking about the 4 'Heavenly Kings' today...... it will cause a great debate.

But if we were to narrow it down to the 2 'Heavenly Kings', then I would say it would be just Lin Dan and Taufik Hidayat. :) :) :)

Cheers... chris@ccc

we always enjoy a good insightful debate. :)

Loh

02-22-2007, 02:21 AM

we always enjoy a good insightful debate. :)

This is one way to bring the "Heavenly Kings" down to earth! :rolleyes:

Joyous

02-22-2007, 02:32 AM

I am inclined to agree with Sabathiel on his views of an accomplished player. All credit & recognition should be given to Rudy H for his accomplishments during his era despite the absence of the Chinese. I don't think it is sensible to compare him with, say TH. Things have changed, so have the game & equipment used.
Sabathiel has a strong point which I fully agree - dominance in any game. I have earlier mentioned that LD will certainly make a stronger impression in my memory of badminton when he retires than the Chinese guy who won the Olympics some years ago because of his (LD) consistency & dominance.

sabathiel

02-22-2007, 03:02 AM

I have earlier mentioned that LD will certainly make a stronger impression in my memory of badminton when he retires than the Chinese guy who won the Olympics some years ago because of his (LD) consistency & dominance.

Do you mean Yang Yang? He was quite dominant during his era but given Lin Dan is still relatively young Lin Dan has the chance of surpassing Yang Yang's achievements.

It is too early to judge the current players like Taufik or Lin Dan. It is only fair to measure the greatness of players who have already retired because they have proven themselves. What if Lin Dan's career plummet from now on until he retires in, let's say, his 30s? Or in reverse, what if Lin Dan wins 6 more consecutive All England titles on top of the 2 he already won so far plus an Olympic Gold? The current players still has a lot to prove until they retire.

An example of big media hype is Icuk Sugiarto who was and still is the youngest player to win a World Championship at 20 and in Indonesia was said to be the next Rudy Hartono at the time. After winning that World title in 1983 he didn't win any more major titles and often lost in early rounds to obscure players something that never happened to Rudy Hartono.

Joyous

02-22-2007, 08:34 PM

Do you mean Yang Yang? He was quite dominant during his era but given Lin Dan is still relatively young Lin Dan has the chance of surpassing Yang Yang's achievements.

I think he's Xinpeng.. Yang Yang has my respect because he was consistent & dominant during his era. Besides, YY not only won homeground tournaments but abroad.

For the past 3 yrs, LD has been pretty consistent & dominant & if he continues to do so in the next few years, he will definitely make a greater impact on anybody's memory than a player who strikes big in one or two tournaments. Many will disagree with that. Noboby can deny that AE is a prestigious tournament eventho' it's held yearly. TH has said tournaments that are held yearly do not carry as much prestige like OG & AG & was against WC being held yearly. Accordingly to him, a player who failed can try again the following years. If this is truly so, why do some good players fail to win AE despite it being held yearly and why is it that some made it once & never make it thru' to say even the quarter-finals after that. My opinion is that if you are truly an accomplished player, you will need to have discipline & consistency because it's harder to stay at no. 1 than getting there.
Therefore, I agree with you that we can only come to conclusion when the player retires. But for the time being, LD still has my vote as the most consistent & dominant player.

ctjcad

02-22-2007, 09:16 PM

For the past 3 yrs, LD has been pretty consistent & dominant & if he continues to do so in the next few years, he will definitely make a greater impact on anybody's memory than a player who strikes big in one or two tournaments.
...there has been a minor "whisper"(from a close acquaintance of LD) in BCF(in another recent thread) which mentioned of a possibility that *both* LD and XXF will retire after the 2008 Olympics...How accurate is that? well, it is still unconfirmed...So stay tune..;)
*I'll try to find the thread/posts of that report..;)

sabathiel

02-22-2007, 10:59 PM

This is sad with relatively young players like Taufik and Lin Dan talking about retirement and not continue playing until at least 30. Do these players think that they are so great that by retiring early they would leave a great mark in badminton history? Having heard this early retirement talk makes me think that another sub-criteria for greatness is whether a player still excells (or maybe even remain a force to be reckon with) in his latter years (say from 28 to his/her 30s). A truly great player like Rudy Hartono (who manage to win a World title in his 30s) would still generate fear in his/her opponents by winning major titles in his/her latter years. Players like Rudy Hartono, Poul Erik Hoyer Larsen, Hendrawan etc won major titles in their 30s. In particular Hoyer Larsen and Hendrawan who excelled and played their best badminton in their 30s. Are players like Taufik and Lin Dan who talk of early retirement scared that they won't be able to play at their peak and win major titles in their latter years and thus tarnish their record? This makes me wonder. Are they gutless or just plain complacent or maybe both?

Linus

02-22-2007, 11:22 PM

You may be right. But whether a player ought to step down will depend if there are younger players ready to take over from him. Sometimes the choice may not entirely be his alone.

Take Rudy's case, obviously in the large part of the 70s there was not many choices of MS out of Indonesia until Lim Swie King. He has to soldier on.

This year we saw the retirement of Chen Hong, who many believes he still have a few good years left, but what choice did he really have if the China association did not want to send him to major tournament even if he is willing to compete at the highest level?

There is also the view of the level of physical requirement in modern sports have changed so much that the demand of players to be in tip-top condition always is pushing players (not only in badminton) to retire from high level competition earlier than in the 70s/80s.

From a more human side, sometimes we also prefer to see our "hero" bow out in glory rather than being forced out in embarassment.

Joyous

02-22-2007, 11:24 PM

TH did indicate he would want to retire after the Beijing Olympics and LCW mentioned that he would quit when he's 28. Don't know about LD tho'. But I suppose the right age to retire is subjective. Motivation will probably play a part in coming to this decision. Based on statistics the Chinese players retire much earlier with the exception of Zhang Ning.

ctjcad

02-22-2007, 11:41 PM

...there has been a minor "whisper"(from a close acquaintance of LD) in BCF(in another recent thread) which mentioned of a possibility that *both* LD and XXF will retire after the 2008 Olympics...How accurate is that? well, it is still unconfirmed...So stay tune..
*I'll try to find the thread/posts of that report..
ah, found it, here is the related link/thread/posts:
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39585 (starting from post #11)..again, don't get it wrong as it's not confirmed..;)

You may be right. But whether a player ought to step down will depend if there are younger players ready to take over from him. Sometimes the choice may not entirely be his alone.

Take Rudy's case, obviously in the large part of the 70s there was not many choices of MS out of Indonesia until Lim Swie King. He has to soldier on.

This year we saw the retirement of Chen Hong, who many believes he still have a few good years left, but what choice did he really have if the China association did not want to send him to major tournament even if he is willing to compete at the highest level?

There is also the view of the level of physical requirement in modern sports have changed so much that the demand of players to be in tip-top condition always is pushing players (not only in badminton) to retire from high level competition earlier than in the 70s/80s.

From a more human side, sometimes we also prefer to see our "hero" bow out in glory rather than being forced out in embarassment.
..hmm, all sound reasonable and i can somewhat concur with what Linus wrote...And those are all the more reason for my earlier point that "Each to their own 'greatness'", as generation of players deserve their own "greatness"..Do LD's or TH's or even XXF's decision(s), to retire early, put them in a class "lower" than their great predecessors??...Thus, pitting or "judging" one player to another or to a different generation(s) is, IMO, incomparable...;)

sabathiel

02-23-2007, 12:20 AM

It is a different case if the badminton establishment of the player's respective country forces the player to retire early. I think this is silly if the player is still winning tournaments and is in great form. What I am concerned about is if the player himself/herself decides to retire early because he/she believes that he/she has achieved enough at an early age. I find it hard to believe that a country's badminton association will force a player who is still in great form and still winning tournaments to retire (eg Chen Hong). Is this confirmed officially or just a rumour?

Rudy Hartono came out of retirement at 31 to win the 1980 World Championships by beating the in form Liem Swie King 15-9;15-9. PBSI didn't force Rudy to retire or come out of retirement. Tony Gunawan is 31 and PBSI wants him to play for Indonesia again despite lots of new talent in men's doubles in Indonesia.

The New Scoring System allows for players, in my opinion, to play longer even into their 30s because matches will never go to 90 minutes or more anymore. The longest duration is now just above 60 minutes with many matces ending in less than 20 minutes. A Swedish doubles specialist in the late 70s and early 80s named Thomas Khilstrom was still winning major titles in his mid 30s and played until 38. Jens Eriksen will be 38 this year and is still playing well. Liem Swie King played doubles and won major titles in his 30s. Zhang Ning is another example. Andre Agassi retired at 35 and still manage to win titles in his 30s. So age is no excuse if one is still determined to win and compete at that level.

I know it is academic judging the greatness of a player particularly players from different generations but this is what sports historians must do and to a lesser extent the fans. The judgement enriches the knowledge and history of that particular sport as well as it is fun arguing who is better and who is the greatest. That is why they have Hall Of Fames and special awards!

ctjcad

02-23-2007, 12:54 AM

It is a different case if the badminton establishment of the player's respective country forces the player to retire early. I think this is silly if the player is still winning tournaments and is in great form. What I am concerned about is if the player himself/herself decides to retire early because he/she believes that he/she has achieved enough at an early age. I find it hard to believe that a country's badminton association will force a player who is still in great form and still winning tournaments to retire (eg Chen Hong). Is this confirmed officially or just a rumour?
..personally, why would one feel "concerned" if a player who is still in peak form & capable of playing competitively retires early or vice versa(comes out of retirement). I know sometimes we may wonder why?? Take an example of Mia Audina, who abruptly retired last yr. Or say Camilla Martin, who retired before she reached 30 yrs. old, if i'm not mistaken. But if a player feels s/he has had enough, whatever their age(s) may be, then more power to him/her & its entirely their own decisions. Same thing with the case of players wanting to come out of retirements(like your example of Mr. Hartono). Essentially, its their own lifelihoods and "concerns".;)
As for CH's reason to retire early, well, there have been some discussions on that as well..ah, here's a related thread on his retirement: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40376 (notice he mentioned abt comparing the MS and WS levels of competition)..;)

Rudy Hartono came out of retirement at 31 to win the 1980 World Championships by beating the in form Liem Swie King 15-9;15-9. PBSI didn't force Rudy to retire or come out of retirement. Tony Gunawan is 31 and PBSI wants him to play for Indonesia again despite lots of new talent in men's doubles in Indonesia.
..just want to touch on PBSI's plan to "hire" Tony(and Candra) back for their upcoming SC and TC teams..Hmm, IMO, it's more of a "desperate" move..Btw, the latest news indicate the plan might not even go through-there's another thread which mentions abt this..here it is: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33672&page=2 (starting from post #36 or if interested you guys can read the entire thread)..;)

Loh

02-23-2007, 02:33 AM

If only China allows it "discards" (for whatever reason) to play for other countries without having to change citizenship. Discards would include those players who feel they still have it in them to play at the highest level, but they can't represent countries in major competitions like the Thomas, Uber, Sudirman Cups, the Olympics, etc, where only citizens are allowed.

I think Tony Gunawan, though not a US citizen yet, now plays for that country in BWF SS or Opens and other international competitions. In this way, such discards can still ply their wares elsewhere, continue to be employed and win prize monies in a vocation that they are trained for.

This will apply to Chen Hong and Zhou Mi as well. If there are suitable incentives, they may well want to continue to do what they do best and remain in the limelight for as long as possible. Their ex-compatriots like Xu Huaiwen(Germany), Yao Jie (Nederlands) and Pi Hongyan (France) did so but had to give up Chinese citizenship in the process.

China then has to learn to open up more and allow freedom of employment and travel to such talents who may still be wanted by other countries rather than to 'force' them to remain at home doing something that they may not like.

sabathiel

02-23-2007, 04:04 AM

..personally, why would one feel "concerned" if a player who is still in peak form & capable of playing competitively retires early or vice versa(comes out of retirement). I know sometimes we may wonder why?? Take an example of Mia Audina, who abruptly retired last yr. Or say Camilla Martin, who retired before she reached 30 yrs. old, if i'm not mistaken. But if a player feels s/he has had enough, whatever their age(s) may be, then more power to him/her & its entirely their own decisions. Same thing with the case of players wanting to come out of retirements(like your example of Mr. Hartono). Essentially, its their own lifelihoods and "concerns".;)
As for CH's reason to retire early, well, there have been some discussions on that as well..ah, here's a related thread on his retirement: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40376 (notice he mentioned abt comparing the MS and WS levels of competition)..;)

..just want to touch on PBSI's plan to "hire" Tony(and Candra) back for their upcoming SC and TC teams..Hmm, IMO, it's more of a "desperate" move..Btw, the latest news indicate the plan might not even go through-there's another thread which mentions abt this..here it is: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33672&page=2 (starting from post #36 or if interested you guys can read the entire thread)..;)

I suppose "concerned" is a wrong choice of word. What I meant is I am against the notion of great players or potentially great players retiring early for the reason of personal glory because they are complacent with what they have achieved so far and refuse to slug it out until their later years (at least 30) and give their fair share of contribution to the sport. I admire people who give a lot to the sport by playing until their mid thirties or even late thirties and still manage to excell in their sport. Quiting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough. On the other side that player lacks the courage to go further on with the fear that he/she might not be able to sustain his/her record.

I know the decision is entirely theirs to make but I feel true greatness doesn't quit early simply on the fact that you are still on top. Rudy Hartono quit not while he was still on top. In fact Rudy's last international game was a defeat to Luan Jin in the 1982 Thomas Cup. The same thing happen to Muhammad Ali and Andre Agassi. These sportspeople show that they are fighters and aren't scared of defeat or tarnishing the totality of their achievements by continuing at an older age. They also show a passion and love of their sports which makes their fans admire them more for their contribution to the sport.

Having a legitimate reason to quit early is in my book excusable for example health reasons/permanent injuries, personal or family commitments, etc but simply quiting early because you are still on top or think you have achieved enough tarnishes the character and real achievement of the sportsperson.

Mia Audina quit because she is devoting her life to assist her husbands career who is a gospel singer because her husband has so far supported her badminton career at his expense. Mia also didn't quit while she was on top at 27. Camilla Martin quit international badminton at 30 also when she was on the decline. 30 seems to be a good age to retire especially if you are already on the decline. In Canada they have a 48 old woman who still is playing in the national team (Denyse Julien) and still manage to beat the youngsters.

I don't think that PBSI is really desperate to get Tony to play for Indonesia because there are many doubles players in Indonesia who are relatively doing okay at international level. Sigit Budiarto is still playing for his club internationally (Jarum) and PBSI isn't trying to get him back into Pelatnas. Similarly Candra Wijaya has quit Pelatnas and PBSI isn't trying to get him back. All PBSI wants is for these players to still represent Indonesia whether that is while at Pelatnas, their Club or personally. There are at least 3 credible men's doubles pairs in Pelatnas unlike China who only has one credible men's double internationally.

wizzy

02-23-2007, 07:09 AM

I know the decision is entirely theirs to make but I feel true greatness doesn't quit early simply on the fact that you are still on top. Rudy Hartono quit not while he was still on top. In fact Rudy's last international game was a defeat to Luan Jin in the 1982 Thomas Cup. The same thing happen to Muhammad Ali and Andre Agassi. These sportspeople show that they are fighters and aren't scared of defeat or tarnishing the totality of their achievements by continuing at an older age. They also show a passion and love of their sports which makes their fans admire them more for their contribution to the sport.

Having a legitimate reason to quit early is in my book excusable for example health reasons/permanent injuries, personal or family commitments, etc but simply quiting early because you are still on top or think you have achieved enough tarnishes the character and real achievement of the sportsperson.

I think Taufik or other people doesn't care whatever we think about him if he retired in early ages... For me it doesn't matter.. as long as he/she thinks that he "had enough", the world is not a badminton only mate..!
They have family and other things to look after as well.

The greatness of the sportman is not merely based on what people think about him or his achievements in the world's stages, but for me is how he/she would like to take/make the sport that he love most to be known around the world.

wizzy.

ctjcad

02-23-2007, 01:08 PM

I suppose "concerned" is a wrong choice of word. What I meant is I am against the notion of great players or potentially great players retiring early for the reason of personal glory because they are complacent with what they have achieved so far and refuse to slug it out until their later years (at least 30) and give their fair share of contribution to the sport. I admire people who give a lot to the sport by playing until their mid thirties or even late thirties and still manage to excell in their sport. Quiting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough. On the other side that player lacks the courage to go further on with the fear that he/she might not be able to sustain his/her record.

I know the decision is entirely theirs to make but I feel true greatness doesn't quit early simply on the fact that you are still on top. Rudy Hartono quit not while he was still on top. In fact Rudy's last international game was a defeat to Luan Jin in the 1982 Thomas Cup. The same thing happen to Muhammad Ali and Andre Agassi. These sportspeople show that they are fighters and aren't scared of defeat or tarnishing the totality of their achievements by continuing at an older age. They also show a passion and love of their sports which makes their fans admire them more for their contribution to the sport.

Having a legitimate reason to quit early is in my book excusable for example health reasons/permanent injuries, personal or family commitments,etc but simply quiting early because you are still on top or think you have achieved enough tarnishes the character and real achievement of the sportsperson.

Mia Audina quit because she is devoting her life to assist her husbands career who is a gospel singer because her husband has so far supported her badminton career at his expense. Mia also didn't quit while she was on top at 27. Camilla Martin quit international badminton at 30 also when she was on the decline. 30 seems to be a good age to retire especially if you are already on the decline. In Canada they have a 48 old woman who still is playing in the national team (Denyse Julien) and still manage to beat the youngsters.
..hmm, i could somewhat concur with most of your 1st paragraph above..Further, IMO, and as far as i know, most athletes(in any sports) who retired or quit early had some if not most of the reason you've mentioned above, which i've highlighted in bold...However, even if they want to quit early because "one is still on top or think one has achieved enough", i think we fans should respect their decisions...
Abt the notion that "Quitting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough", IMO, as a fan and probably most fans out there would "prefer" to see their athletes retire "on top of their game" rather than continue playing and degrade as they get older. I understand the current DEN pairs of JE/MLH are still playing but are they really doing the sport & their national team, even themselves, a favor? I also think this notion could be somewhat applied also to some of those retired athletes who came out of their retirement, who probably weren't fit for competing to begin with, and pursued or continued in their previously-played sport(s). In most cases, they did so simply because they're after some more monies...If that's the case, are they doing the sport a "favor" by doing so??..Are they "contributing to the sport"??..Do you think older greats like Rexy or Rudy should come out of retirement and compete again??..Would their presence "contribute to the sport"??..:confused: ;)

I don't think that PBSI is really desperate to get Tony to play for Indonesia because there are many doubles players in Indonesia who are relatively doing okay at international level. Sigit Budiarto is still playing for his club internationally (Jarum) and PBSI isn't trying to get him back into Pelatnas. Similarly Candra Wijaya has quit Pelatnas and PBSI isn't trying to get him back. All PBSI wants is for these players to still represent Indonesia whether that is while at Pelatnas, their Club or personally. There are at least 3 credible men's doubles pairs in Pelatnas unlike China who only has one credible men's double internationally.
..hmm, if what i've highlighted in bold is the case, then why aren't they pursuing their ex-players like Sigit or Eng Hian, who basically are more ideal logistically-speaking, to come back and play for them??..I understand that PBSI want players who are playing overseas like Tony to come back and play for their local clubs, but i thought one has to be a part of Pelatnas or INA National team in order for him/her to compete in team events(ie. SC, TC/UC, AG)..:confused:

ctjcad

02-23-2007, 01:34 PM

I understand the current DEN pairs of JE/MLH are still playing but are they really doing the sport & their national team, even themselves, a favor?
(but ran out of editing-time)..:p
...I understand some of the current players who are playing competitively past their "primes"(whoever they may be) are doing so out of their passions and love for the game, but are they really helping or "contributing" to the sport or even what the national team's main goal is/are??..In other words, what is/are the benefit(s) of having those players continue playing past their prime(s), esp. knowing well that there are younger players ready & waiting to be given exposure(s) and take over their helm(s)..In a way, the argument is somewhat related in the same boat as the PBSI/Pelatnas/Tony issue..:confused: :rolleyes:

sabathiel

02-23-2007, 05:50 PM

Those players who are playing competitevely past their primes still are contributing to their sport or even the national team's main goal because they are still competitive. Off course if they are no longer competitive then there is no point to play or maybe they are not working hard enough. On the issue of money, they would not be making money unless they are still good and competitive so good on them for making money because that means they are still competitive and contributing to the sport.

I believe that the youngsters must work hard and earn their spot in the national team and not expect the oldies to simply give a spot for these youngsters in the team. If the youngsters are good enough on their own merit than good on them but they should not have a free ride or the oldies make it easy for them. If the oldies cannot compete with the youngsters than it is time for these oldies to quit because what is the point of playing if you are not doing well. It is a waste of time and expenses! So true competition is a good thing between the oldies and the youngsters. This is what is good for the sport.

Jens Eriksen is still doing well and with his partner is still the top men's doubles pair in Denmark. Why should he quit simply to let the youngsters get more exposure? Is this in the interests of badminton in general or more specifically for Danish badminton? By allowing the youngsters play and compete against these top older players the youngsters would be learning a lot and push themselves to become better and better. Rudy Hartono at 32 was called to be a member of the Indonesian Thomas Cup because there are no youngster good enough to fill the spot. Is it in the national team's interest to fill the spot with an inexperienced youngster who is still not good enough to play at the highest level? Surely training against the maestro will give the youngsters invaluable badminton lessons for the youngsters. The exposure for the youngsters can come from being send to lower level tournaments to prove themselves. What is the point of sending these youngsters to high level tournaments if they can't even do well in lower grade tournaments. A waste of money and probably affect the confidence of these youngsters.

Youngsters are good with speed and power while the oldies are better with tactics, intelligence, maturity of play and wisdom on the court. Surely it is an enormous benefit to the youngsters to learn from the older players in those department the older players excell in. This can only be a good thing for the sport.

In regard to Tony Gunawan I know that in order to play in the Olympics, Thomas Cup or Sudirman Cup he has to be an Indonesian citizen which he is but I am not sure if it is a requirement for him to be in the national team or reside in Indonesia. I don't think it is necessary for Tony to be a resident in Indonesia or be at Pelatnas. That is why PBSI is trying to get him to play for Indonesian again. Tony is happy in the USA with his wife and has a good job there. I doubt very much that he would like to come back and live in Indonesia again simply to play badminton for Indonesia (which I think is unnecessary anyway). It is metioned in one article that PBSI want Tony and the other older players to at least be sparring partners for the younger players which means it is not in PBSI's interests to see these older players quit for the reasons I already mentioned.

I respect the players decision to retire but that is different from respecting a players decision to retire early because they are still on top and doesn't have the courage to continue playing because they are scared their record will be marred if they continue playing. Retire on top at a reasonably old age yes but not at a relatively early age. The sport and the fans deserve more than that because the player's true potential is not realized and the sport and fans are deprived of years of potentially good/great badminton. Would you be annoyed at least a bit if Roger Federer who is touted as the greatest tennis player ever retires now because he is still on top now because he thinks he has achieved enough. What good is that to the fans or sport? Imagine what he could have achieved if he continues playing and what kind of records he could break? Respect their decisions to quit maybe but to like silly decisions like that definetely not. These great players owe it to the sport and fans who have made them great to give the sport and fans their best effort in playing the sport. It is us who made them great by giving them the adulation and accolades and to a lesser extent the monies that they earn from supporting the sport. Without us the fans where would they be?

Don't you think you admire players like Peter Gade who in his 30s can still manage to win the Malaysian Open because of his talents and sheer determination to succeed at an older age? Off course players like Rexy or Rudy are no longer competitive at their age but if they were wouldn't you like to watch them? Wouldn't they like to keep on playing and contribute to the sport if they think they still can win? That is why they are either coaches or administrators of the sport because they love the game so much they want to participate in the sport in whatever capacity they can. Trust me if Rexy can still win All England he probably would still like to play competitevely at an international level.

sabathiel

02-23-2007, 05:57 PM

I think Taufik or other people doesn't care whatever we think about him if he retired in early ages... For me it doesn't matter.. as long as he/she thinks that he "had enough", the world is not a badminton only mate..!
They have family and other things to look after as well.

The greatness of the sportman is not merely based on what people think about him or his achievements in the world's stages, but for me is how he/she would like to take/make the sport that he love most to be known around the world.

wizzy.

If he loves the sport he wouldn't retire early. If he would like to take/make the sport that he loves most to be known around the world he would continue playing his best badminton and promote the sport with his skills.

Wong8Egg

02-23-2007, 06:32 PM

4 Heavenly Kings??? :D

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12619&stc=1&d=1124701577

cooler

02-23-2007, 06:41 PM

If he loves the sport he wouldn't retire early. If he would like to take/make the sport that he loves most to be known around the world he would continue playing his best badminton and promote the sport with his skills.well, maybe retirement is just a way to get out of pbsi;) Look at tony G and candra W. Also, TH might get an appointment into INA sport council.

ctjcad

02-23-2007, 06:48 PM

(sorry all if this discussion is gettin a bit off)..:p

Those players who are playing competititevely past their primes still are contributing to their sport or even the national team's main goal because they are still competitive. Off course if they are no longer competitive then there is no point to play or maybe they are not working hard enough. On the issue of money, they would not be making money unless they are still good and competitive so good on them for making money because that means they are still competitive and contributing to the sport.
i can concur abt what i've highlighted in bold..but the question is then, how long should or what is the best time to retire if those veteran players keep playing??..should they keep playing til their bodies totally fall apart??..:confused:
Abt veteran players coming back and playing again for monies, i was referring to other sports..;)

I believe that the youngsters must work hard and earn their spot in the national team and not expect the oldies to simply give a spot for these youngsters in the team. If the youngsters are good enough on their own merit than good on them but they should not have a free ride or the oldies make it easy for them. If the oldies cannot compete with the youngsters than it is time for these oldies to quit because what is the point of playing if you are not doing well. It is a waste of time and expenses! So true competition is a good thing between the oldies and the youngsters. This is what is good for the sport.

Jens Eriksen is still doing well and with his partner is still the top men's doubles pair in Denmark. Why should he quit simply to let the youngsters get more exposure? Is this in the interests of badminton in general or more specifically for Danish badminton? By allowing the youngsters play and compete against these top older players the youngsters would be learning a lot and push themselves to become better and better. Rudy Hartono at 32 was called to be a member of the Indonesian Thomas Cup because there are no youngster good enough to fill the spot. Is it in the national team's interest to fill the spot with an inexperienced youngster who is still not good enough to play at the highest level? Surely training against the maestro will give the youngsters invaluable badminton lessons for the youngsters. The exposure for the youngsters can come from being send to lower level tournaments to prove themselves. What is the point of sending these youngsters to high level tournaments if they can't even do well in lower grade tournaments. A waste of money and probably affect the confidence of these youngsters.
..going off topic: hmmm, as an example, don't you see the similarities of your notion to why many junior and young players that were recruited by PBSI but then left/quit Pelatnas??..Some left because they just couldn't take the reality of the training and some left because they know they wouldn't have any chances to compete, esp. knowing well that PBSI will keep sending the same old veterans...See also the KOR squad in last yr's TC/UC, where they fielded mostly young and rather inexperienced players...

In regard to Tony Gunawan I know that in order to play in the Olympics, Thomas Cup or Sudirman Cup he has to be an Indonesian citizen which he is but I am not sure if it is a requirement for him to be in the national team or reside in Indonesia. I don't think it is necessary for Tony to be a resident in Indonesia or be at Pelatnas. That is why PBSI is trying to get him to play for Indonesian again. Tony is happy in the USA with his wife and has a good job there. I doubt very much that he would like to come back and live in Indonesia again simply to play badminton for Indonesia (which I think is unnecessary anyway). It is metioned in one article that PBSI want Tony and the other older players to at least be sparring partners for the younger players which means it is not in PBSI's interests to see these older players quit for the reasons I already mentioned.
..going off topic: hmm, if i'm not mistaken(someone please do correct me), one has to be part of the national team to compete in major team events..I don't think players like Sigit or Eng Hian, who are playing individually at their respected clubs would be eligible to partake in any national team competition. Only if they rejoin the national team/Pelatnas. ABt Tony and other veterans being sparring partners, i think that's a different matter.

I respect the players decision to retire but that is different from respecting a players decision to retire early because they are still on top and doesn't have the courage to continue playing because they are scared their record will be marred if they continue playing. Retire on top at a reasonably old age yes but not at a relatively early age. The sport and the fans deserve more than that because the player's true potential is not realized and the sport and fans are deprived of years of potentially good/great badminton. Would you be annoyed at least a bit if Roger Federer who is touted as the greatest tennis player ever retires now because he is still on top now because he thinks he has achieved enough. What good is that to the fans or sport? Imagine what he could have achieved if he continues playing and what kind of records he could break? Respect their decisions to quit maybe but to like silly decisions like that definetely not. These great players owe it to the sport and fans who have made them great to give the sport and fans their best effort in playing the sport. It is us who made them great by giving them the adulation and accolades and to a lesser extent the monies that they earn from supporting the sport. Without us the fans where would they be?
..going off topic: hmm, in reference to what i've highlighted in bold, any specific example(s) of (well-known)players that you think might've done so??
In the example of Federer, personally, i wouldn't want to see him retire now(of course that's coming out of my own selfish motive), esp. when he's still dominating like what he has done. But, on the other hand, i don't want to see him keep playing until he's in the mid 30s or late 30s or even 40s. Personally, i would rather see him retire "on top", whenever that may be, even if he still has a few yrs left in him. Just a small example, remember Jordan?? remember his attempt of coming back to try & play pro basketball again?? do you remember what happened??..:rolleyes: ;)

Don't you think you admire players like Peter Gade who in his 30s can still manage to win the Malaysian Open because of his talents and sheer determination to succeed at an older age? Off course players like Rexy or Rudy are no longer competitive at their age but if they were wouldn't you like to watch them? Wouldn't they like to keep on playing and contribute to the sport if they think they still can win? That is why they are either coaches or administrators of the sport because they love the game so much they want to participate in the sport in whatever capacity they can. Trust me if Rexy can still win All England he probably would still like to play competitevely at an international level.
..hmm, what i've highlighted, i think that's the key..If for just for the sheer of competing and playing, i'm sure we all would see many old pros still playing nowadays: the KimDongMoons, Rexys, Park Joo Bongs even the Rudy Hartonos of the world etc. But then what happen to the youngsters?? Where would they fit in(players like KKK/TBH)?? How would they get their exposures and chances if all they saw were the veterans being sent to major tourneys. And I thought all those olden great players were given the same chances when they were young??..
As tough as it is, there comes a time where it's just time to move on for the old/veteran players and give way to the new generation of players.. ..;)

ctjcad

02-23-2007, 06:57 PM

If he loves the sport he wouldn't retire early. If he would like to take/make the sport that he loves most to be known around the world he would continue playing his best badminton and promote the sport with his skills.
...those people might instead "respect" the sport so well that they've decided to retire earlier..;)
...so, does that mean players that retired earlier than they should, ie. Mia, KDM, RKM, HTK don't love the sport?? What does retiring early gotta do with someone "loving" the sport or not?:confused:
As far as i know, if a person "loves" the sport, s/he would give it his/her all effort whilst they're still playing...Doing so in their maximum capabilities and efforts..;)

I'll say this: the only person/individual who truly knows when is the right time for him/her to quit/retire/hang it up is none other but that particular athlete him/herself. And we, as fans, should not nor have the right to put a label on them as "selfish, full of him/herself, non-sportsmanlike or what-have yous" on their decision(s).

sabathiel

02-23-2007, 08:37 PM

well, maybe retirement is just a way to get out of pbsi;) Look at tony G and candra W. Also, TH might get an appointment into INA sport council.

Yeah, maybe but as other Indonesian players have proven and done it is possible to get out of PBSI and still play international badminton. So why retire when you still have it in you.:rolleyes:

sabathiel

02-23-2007, 08:51 PM

...those people might instead "respect" the sport so well that they've decided to retire earlier..;)
...so, does that mean players that retired earlier than they should, ie. Mia, KDM, RKM, HTK don't love the sport?? What does retiring early gotta do with someone "loving" the sport or not?:confused:
As far as i know, if a person "loves" the sport, s/he would give it his/her all effort whilst they're still playing...Doing so in their maximum capabilities and efforts..;)

I'll say this: the only person/individual who truly knows when is the right time for him/her to quit/retire/hang it up is none other but that particular athlete him/herself. And we, as fans, should not nor have the right to put a label on them as "selfish, full of him/herself, non-sportsmanlike or what-have yous" on their decision(s).

If someone truly loves badminton then that someone would want to play it at whatever level if he/she is still capable of playing. If that someone still can win tournaments and love the sport then that person would still want to play internationally. Doing so in their maximum capabilities and efforts mean putting the effort into training and playing competitions. This is the proof of loving the sport. Mia devoting her life to her husband's career simply means that she doesn't love badminton enough to continue playing because if she did she wouldn't quit. I am not saying that Mia should love badminton more than her husband but rather am saying that she doesn't love badminton enough.

Off course I have the right to put a label on them with whatever I want to say about them. Are you saying it is illegal to do so or I have to curb my right to freedom of speech or freedom of opinion to say what I think?:D

I know the decision to retire is that particular athlete's decision but surely others like administrators, relatives/friends/loved ones of the players, coaches etc can exert some pressure and influence to change the minds of those players ad to a lesser extent opinions of fans like us in forums like these if the players read them. A wise person will take into consideration other factors in retiring other than the simple desire to retire for whatever reason.

sabathiel

02-23-2007, 09:31 PM

(sorry all if this discussion is gettin a bit off)..:p

i can concur abt what i've highlighted in bold..but the question is then, how long should or what is the best time to retire if those veteran players keep playing??..should they keep playing til their bodies totally fall apart??..:confused:
Abt veteran players coming back and playing again for monies, i was referring to other sports..;)

..going off topic: hmmm, as an example, don't you see the similarities of your notion to why many junior and young players that were recruited by PBSI but then left/quit Pelatnas??..Some left because they just couldn't take the reality of the training and some left because they know they wouldn't have any chances to compete, esp. knowing well that PBSI will keep sending the same old veterans...See also the KOR squad in last yr's TC/UC, where they fielded mostly young and rather inexperienced players...

..going off topic: hmm, if i'm not mistaken(someone please do correct me), one has to be part of the national team to compete in major team events..I don't think players like Sigit or Eng Hian, who are playing individually at their respected clubs would be eligible to partake in any national team competition. Only if they rejoin the national team/Pelatnas. ABt Tony and other veterans being sparring partners, i think that's a different matter.

..going off topic: hmm, in reference to what i've highlighted in bold, any specific example(s) of (well-known)players that you think might've done so??
In the example of Federer, personally, i wouldn't want to see him retire now(of course that's coming out of my own selfish motive), esp. when he's still dominating like what he has done. But, on the other hand, i don't want to see him keep playing until he's in the mid 30s or late 30s or even 40s. Personally, i would rather see him retire "on top", whenever that may be, even if he still has a few yrs left in him. Just a small example, remember Jordan?? remember his attempt of coming back to try & play pro basketball again?? do you remember what happened??..:rolleyes: ;)

..hmm, what i've highlighted, i think that's the key..If for just for the sheer of competing and playing, i'm sure we all would see many old pros still playing nowadays: the KimDongMoons, Rexys, Park Joo Bongs even the Rudy Hartonos of the world etc. But then what happen to the youngsters?? Where would they fit in(players like KKK/TBH)?? How would they get their exposures and chances if all they saw were the veterans being sent to major tourneys. And I thought all those olden great players were given the same chances when they were young??..
As tough as it is, there comes a time where it's just time to move on for the old/veteran players and give way to the new generation of players.. ..;)

To answer your question highlighted in bold which I have already stated in my previous post is they should keep on playing so long as they are still competitive and still can produce good results or win titles. Off course they should quit if they think they no longer can produce good results or win titles or think their bodies are "falling apart".

This is why Andre Agassi played until his mid 30s. You can't say that Andre was a disgrace to tennis when he retired but rather quit at a reasonable level, well maybe not while he is on top. Pete Sampras on the other hand quit after winning his 14th Grand Slam title (the US Open) and decided that that was enough without wanting to try to win his 15th Grand Slam title which he could have done. Having said that Pete Sampras was already old enough to retire but the fans would be curious if he still have it in him to win another Grand Slam.

I have already stated this that youngsters must earn their spot in the national team or being sent to A grade tournaments by producing results in training. The world doesn't owe them a living by pressuring the veterans to give up their spot for them. Perform and show us the results and they are fine. This is what fair competition is all about. The badminton world is entitled to watch the best compete in tournaments not second best simply because they are talented youngsters. In any event it is still possible to sent the veterans and young ones to tournaments and as long the young ones produce the results than there is no problem. I am totally against making it easy for the young ones at the expense of the in form veterans. This is totally unfair.

If the young ones leave the national squad because they can't hack the training or because they don't have the chance to compete on the basis PBSI keep sending the veterans away to tournaments then they should not be in the national team for lacking the mental strength to be athletes. Being in the national team means you must be able to endure the pressure of training, accept the results that you produce at training as a basis for who gets sent away to A grade tournaments and be content with going to lesser prestigious tournaments and hopefully produce good results there. If they can't stand the heat then they should get out of the kitchen. They must earn their spots not be given to them on a silver plate.

Korea fielding young and inexperienced players at TC/UC maybe means that these players are doing well in training by beating or at least matching the veterans. So this might be the right and fair thing to do.

On your question that does a player would have to be in the national team to partake in national team competition internationally I think the answer is "no". This is because PBSI is trying to get Tony Gunawan to play for Indonesia again in the Sudirman Cup without trying to get him to live in Indonesia again so he doesn't have to be in Pelatnas. There is no talk of Tony playing in the national team as we know that Tony is very happy living in the US. Even if there is a rule that requires Tony to play in Pelatnas this would be a PBSI rule not a IBF rule and the Indonesians can easily waive this rule to let Tony play TC, SC or Olympics.

The difference between the players of old and the newer players is that the old players when they were young get sent to play overseas because they are good enough to play by beating the players in national training. Rudy Hartono at 31 played and won the 1980 World Championships beating the much younger Liem Swie King. Are we to say that Rudy shouldn't have played then to let Swie King to win the title or to let some obscure young player to play in the tournament at the expense of the veteran Rudy Hartono? This is unfair and silly as proven by Rudy winning the title.

Players like KKK/TBH deserves to play internationally because no doubt they are producing results internationally and domestically. I am fine with this. Indeed this is what should happen. The best must be the one selected. Have you ever heard of new and young players from Denmark to take the place of Peter Gade, Kenneth Jonassen or Jens Eriksen/MLH? No! This is because they are the best in Denmark and rightly and fairly should be the ones representing Denmark. Only authoritarian and totalitarian regimes like Indonesia or China would sacrifice individual rights and the principle of fairness to the individual by letting youngsters who are not producing results at the expense of veterans who are producing results.

It is totally and fundamentally unfair against the principle of equal rights that one should say that there comes a time that where it's time to move on for the old/veteran players and give way to new generation of players. And this came from someone who is living in the US a place where individual rights are cherished and held sacred.:(

sabathiel

02-23-2007, 11:39 PM

Just a small example, remember Jordan?? remember his attempt of coming back to try & play pro basketball again?? do you remember what happened??..:rolleyes: ;)

What about fairy tale success stories like Martina Navratilova who still manage to win doubles grand slams in her late 40s and won her last grand slam at 50 (2006 US Open mixed doubles with Bob Bryan) as well as the boxer George Foreman who made a comeback in his late 30s and manage to become heavyweight World Champion at 45? Now the ex heavyweight World Champion from Britain Lennox Lewis is talking of making a come back at 41.:)

cooler

02-24-2007, 12:35 AM

Yeah, maybe but as other Indonesian players have proven and done it is possible to get out of PBSI and still play international badminton. So why retire when you still have it in you.:rolleyes:that's what i meant, retirement is just an official way to quit pbsi with honor:rolleyes:

ctjcad

02-24-2007, 03:45 AM

hmm, it seems like we're the only 2 members still discussing and keeping this thread alive, well sort of...btw, thanks for responding to them..;)
on that note, since these discussions are also veering a bit off topic(sorry again to kwun and others who are reading), i'll try to make some brief comments on some of your responses..
I think the bottomline on a player decision on what to do with his/her career is priorities..

If someone truly loves badminton then that someone would want to play it at whatever level if he/she is still capable of playing. If that someone still can win tournaments and love the sport then that person would still want to play internationally. Doing so in their maximum capabilities and efforts mean putting the effort into training and playing competitions. This is the proof of loving the sport. Mia devoting her life to her husband's career simply means that she doesn't love badminton enough to continue playing because if she did she wouldn't quit. I am not saying that Mia should love badminton more than her husband but rather am saying that she doesn't love badminton enough.
..hmm, it's true but i think this is a case between "loving the sport" and priorities..In Mia's case, i'm sure her priority now is to help & support her hubby. Thus her decision has got to do with her priorities more so than "she doesn't love badminton enough"..Do you or we know, for sure, if she indeed "doesn't love badminton enough"??..I, for one, hope her "love for badminton" hasn't ceased..;)

Off course I have the right to put a label on them with whatever I want to say about them. Are you saying it is illegal to do so or I have to curb my right to freedom of speech or freedom of opinion to say what I think?..i can understand & no, i never said it's illegal for you or anyone to make such claim..but hmm, let's hope none of those badminton players who visit BCF will read what you've written in noting that "Quitting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"..;)

I know the decision to retire is that particular athlete's decision but surely others like administrators, relatives/friends/loved ones of the players, coaches etc can exert some pressure and influence to change the minds of those players ad to a lesser extent opinions of fans like us in forums like these if the players read them. A wise person will take into consideration other factors in retiring other than the simple desire to retire for whatever reason.
..well, exactly and again let's hope those pro players don't read what you've written..Btw, i still haven't seen any examples of players that you noted earlier, and i quote, "I am against the notion of great players or potentially great players retiring early for the reason of personal glory because they are complacent with what they have achieved so far and refuse to slug it out until their later years (at least 30) and give their fair share of contribution to the sport."..If you do give us those examples, how sure are you abt what their main motives behind their decisions??..(we're waiting with baited breath)..;)

To answer your question highlighted in bold which I have already stated in my previous post is they should keep on playing so long as they are still competitive and still can produce good results or win titles. Off course they should quit if they think they no longer can produce good results or win titles or think their bodies are "falling apart".
..so, what if they want to quite early or "on top of their game", for whatever reason(s)?? Are we here to label them as "full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"??..Isn't that their own choice all along??..;)

This is why Andre Agassi played until his mid 30s. You can't say that Andre was a disgrace to tennis when he retired but rather quit at a reasonable level, well maybe not while he is on top. Pete Sampras on the other hand quit after winning his 14th Grand Slam title (the US Open) and decided that that was enough without wanting to try to win his 15th Grand Slam title which he could have done. Having said that Pete Sampras was already old enough to retire but the fans would be curious if he still have it in
him to win another Grand Slam.
..hmm, good examples..Although i think if one keeps on playing but can't win anymore titles, that's also a disgrace/embarrassment..Abt your example of Sampras, that's a good one since he was one who retired at the "top of his game". Why would you say Sampras was old enough to retire but not Agassi??..Would you label Sampras as someone who is "full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"??..;)

I have already stated this that youngsters must earn their spot in the national team or being sent to A grade tournaments by producing results in training. The world doesn't owe them a living by pressuring the veterans to give up their spot for them. Perform and show us the results and they are fine. This is what fair competition is all about. The badminton world is entitled to watch the best compete in tournaments not second best simply because they are talented youngsters. In any event it is still possible to sent the veterans and young ones to tournaments and as long the young ones produce the results than there is no problem. I am totally against making it easy for the young ones at the expense of the in form veterans. This is totally unfair.
..sure, that's reasonable..i and i'm sure most of the BCers have the same thinking as well..;)

Korea fielding young and inexperienced players at TC/UC maybe means that these players are doing well in training by beating or at least matching the veterans. So this might be the right and fair thing to do.
..veterans?? what veterans?? i thought LeeDongSoo, YooYongSung, HaTaeKwon & KimDongMoon, RaKyungMin(all roughly the same ages as Tony G.) had already retired??..Don't you think those KOR players could have stayed and keep on playing, just like their Danish counterparts or Tony G. or LeeWanWah or ChoongTanFook?? If so, then why did they quit/retire early??..Couldn't the KOR National team coaches asked them to stay and play for them??..;)

On your question that does a player would have to be in the national team to partake in national team competition internationally I think the answer is "no". This is because PBSI is trying to get Tony Gunawan to play for Indonesia again in the Sudirman Cup without trying to get him to live in Indonesia again so he doesn't have to be in Pelatnas. There is no talk of Tony playing in the national team as we know that Tony is very happy living in the US. Even if there is a rule that requires Tony to play in Pelatnas this would be a PBSI rule not a IBF rule and the Indonesians can easily waive this rule to let Tony play TC, SC or Olympics.
..on the statement i've highlighted in bold, is that taken from IBF/BWF rule book??..Maybe other BCF members can guide us to that rule..

The difference between the players of old and the newer players is that the old players when they were young get sent to play overseas because they are good enough to play by beating the players in national training. Rudy Hartono at 31 played and won the 1980 World Championships beating the much younger Liem Swie King. Are we to say that Rudy shouldn't have played then to let Swie King to win the title or to let some obscure young player to play in the tournament at the expense of the veteran Rudy Hartono? This is unfair and silly as proven by Rudy winning the title.
..on what i've highlighted in bold, isn't that what's happening nowadays??:confused:..

Players like KKK/TBH deserves to play internationally because no doubt they are producing results internationally and domestically. I am fine with this. Indeed this is what should happen. The best must be the one selected. Have you ever heard of new and young players from Denmark to take the place of Peter Gade, Kenneth Jonassen or Jens Eriksen/MLH? No! This is because they are the best in Denmark and rightly and fairly should be the ones representing Denmark. Only authoritarian and totalitarian regimes like Indonesia or China would sacrifice individual rights and the principle of fairness to the individual by letting youngsters who are not producing results at the expense of veterans who are producing results.
..i can somewhat concur & i know this is off topic, but in regards to the Danish team, actually there have been discussions in here on the reason of why they're not able to produce young talents unlike CHN & INA. With the most common answer of because of their lack of talent pools..

It is totally and fundamentally unfair against the principle of equal rights that one should say that there comes a time that where it's time to move on for the old/veteran players and give way to new generation of players. And this came from someone who is living in the US a place where individual rights are cherished and held sacred.
..off topic-Yes, it's true individual rights are cherished and held sacred in the U.S.(i'm glad you are aware of that;)) Sure why not and i'm not discouraging that. But in professional sports, let's be realistic and pull out our common sense. I was referring in the context of whether i want to see, say, a 50+ yrs. Jimmy Connnors slug it out with say James Blake:eek:..Or you wouldn't expect or even want to see a 50+ Rudy Hartono trot out onto the court & compete against the likes of LinDan or Taufik, would you??..;)

What about fairy tale success stories like Martina Navratilova who still manage to win doubles grand slams in her late 40s and won her last grand slam at 50 (2006 US Open mixed doubles with Bob Bryan) as well as the boxer George Foreman who made a comeback in his late 30s and manage to become heavyweight World Champion at 45? Now the ex heavyweight World Champion from Britain Lennox Lewis is talking of making a come back at 41.
Sure, i can acknowledge those examples. But for every happy-go-lucky fairytale success stories, there are also true disgraceful/embarrassing moments-see Jordan, Ben Johnson's attempt in 1992??, Evander Holyfield & Muhammad Ali's comeback which resulted in a TKO and countless others..Moments which you, I and all fans would just want to say 'why can't he just stay retired and save himself and use from seeing another embarrassing moment??"..Reality is, those kinds of fairytale comeback stories are few and far between. Btw, just curious, why haven't there been any stories of professional athletes coming out of their retirements, after yrs of inactivities, in IBF's/BWF's history??..:rolleyes::confused:;)

wizzy

02-24-2007, 04:07 AM

If he loves the sport he wouldn't retire early. If he would like to take/make the sport that he loves most to be known around the world he would continue playing his best badminton and promote the sport with his skills.

Hahahaha... mate...:D
You think that playing badminton is the only thing to promote the badminton...
that's childish...
Many people who can not play badminton even the tournaments (or high level) is still great accomplishment for us.. since they tried to promote the badminton to the world.

Look many people who has retired in badminton stage's, they still do the best that they can to promote badminton.. here even in Oz (some ex chinese players or even Oz people themeself..) which could be that you playing with or been training with.

wizzy

sabathiel

02-24-2007, 08:39 PM

Hahahaha... mate...:D
You think that playing badminton is the only thing to promote the badminton...
that's childish...
Many people who can not play badminton even the tournaments (or high level) is still great accomplishment for us.. since they tried to promote the badminton to the world.

Look many people who has retired in badminton stage's, they still do the best that they can to promote badminton.. here even in Oz (some ex chinese players or even Oz people themeself..) which could be that you playing with or been training with.

wizzy

People who can't play badminton at high level tournaments can promote the sports to the world????? C'mon, people like you and me can make badminton more popular in the world? In your suburb maybe but not in the world. It is high level players who make the game a joy to watch who are the ones capable of making badminton more popular to the world. Tell me how people who are not famous for playing badminton at high level tournaments can make the game known to the world.:D

The answer is that people like Taufik and Lin Dan makes the game more exciting to watch and promotes badminton as a sport to the world. If there are no great players to watch in tournaments then the game becomes boring which makes badminton less popular. Famous and great players have greater influence to promote the sport around the world. If nobody plays badminton then how can badminton be popular.

sabathiel

02-24-2007, 10:01 PM

hmm, it seems like we're the only 2 members still discussing and keeping this thread alive, well sort of...btw, thanks for responding to them..;)
on that note, since these discussions are also veering a bit off topic(sorry again to kwun and others who are reading), i'll try to make some brief comments on some of your responses..
I think the bottomline on a player decision on what to do with his/her career is priorities..

..hmm, it's true but i think this is a case between "loving the sport" and priorities..In Mia's case, i'm sure her priority now is to help & support her hubby. Thus her decision has got to do with her priorities more so than "she doesn't love badminton enough"..Do you or we know, for sure, if she indeed "doesn't love badminton enough"??..I, for one, hope her "love for badminton" hasn't ceased..;)
..i can understand & no, i never said it's illegal for you or anyone to make such claim..but hmm, let's hope none of those badminton players who visit BCF will read what you've written in noting that "Quitting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"..;)

..well, exactly and again let's hope those pro players don't read what you've written..Btw, i still haven't seen any examples of players that you noted earlier, and i quote, "I am against the notion of great players or potentially great players retiring early for the reason of personal glory because they are complacent with what they have achieved so far and refuse to slug it out until their later years (at least 30) and give their fair share of contribution to the sport."..If you do give us those examples, how sure are you abt what their main motives behind their decisions??..(we're waiting with baited breath)..;)

..so, what if they want to quite early or "on top of their game", for whatever reason(s)?? Are we here to label them as "full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"??..Isn't that their own choice all along??..;)

..hmm, good examples..Although i think if one keeps on playing but can't win anymore titles, that's also a disgrace/embarrassment..Abt your example of Sampras, that's a good one since he was one who retired at the "top of his game". Why would you say Sampras was old enough to retire but not Agassi??..Would you label Sampras as someone who is "full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"??..;)

..sure, that's reasonable..i and i'm sure most of the BCers have the same thinking as well..;)

..veterans?? what veterans?? i thought LeeDongSoo, YooYongSung, HaTaeKwon & KimDongMoon, RaKyungMin(all roughly the same ages as Tony G.) had already retired??..Don't you think those KOR players could have stayed and keep on playing, just like their Danish counterparts or Tony G. or LeeWanWah or ChoongTanFook?? If so, then why did they quit/retire early??..Couldn't the KOR National team coaches asked them to stay and play for them??..;)

..on the statement i've highlighted in bold, is that taken from IBF/BWF rule book??..Maybe other BCF members can guide us to that rule..

..on what i've highlighted in bold, isn't that what's happening nowadays??:confused:..

..i can somewhat concur & i know this is off topic, but in regards to the Danish team, actually there have been discussions in here on the reason of why they're not able to produce young talents unlike CHN & INA. With the most common answer of because of their lack of talent pools..

..off topic-Yes, it's true individual rights are cherished and held sacred in the U.S.(i'm glad you are aware of that;)) Sure why not and i'm not discouraging that. But in professional sports, let's be realistic and pull out our common sense. I was referring in the context of whether i want to see, say, a 50+ yrs. Jimmy Connnors slug it out with say James Blake:eek:..Or you wouldn't expect or even want to see a 50+ Rudy Hartono trot out onto the court & compete against the likes of LinDan or Taufik, would you??..;)

Sure, i can acknowledge those examples. But for every happy-go-lucky fairytale success stories, there are also true disgraceful/embarrassing moments-see Jordan, Ben Johnson's attempt in 1992??, Evander Holyfield & Muhammad Ali's comeback which resulted in a TKO and countless others..Moments which you, I and all fans would just want to say 'why can't he just stay retired and save himself and use from seeing another embarrassing moment??"..Reality is, those kinds of fairytale comeback stories are few and far between. Btw, just curious, why haven't there been any stories of professional athletes coming out of their retirements, after yrs of inactivities, in IBF's/BWF's history??..:rolleyes::confused:;)

You are right about the issue of priority but if one's priority is something other than badminton than that person loves that other priority more than badminton. So badminton is loved less. If one manages his/her time efficiently one can keep on playing badminton while at the same time gives equal commitment to for example family affairs. I don't know for sure what is in Mia's mind but it is only fair to say that I speculate that Mia's passion for competing in international tournaments is no longer as strong as it used to be because if it was she would not have quit. It is thus fair to assume that her love and passion for badminton is no longer as strong as it used to be.

I know you never said that it is illegal for me to express my opinion but my comments were more tongue in cheek rather than literally serious. My serious point is that you are wrong to say that I have no right to put a label on people. It is my absolute democratic right living in a free country to express my opinion and speak out on the matter. You might not like it and those players might not like it but I have the right to present my opinion. By the way those players who are affected by what I say are old and mature enough to read what I say and are not so sensitive as to be mentally affected by my comments. They are adults! So don't be too concerned about them being emotionally affected. I am sure the press and society are far more ruthless in making comments about them at various occasions.

Since you insist of an example I will name Taufik Hidayat as a player in concerned. Taufik last year spoke about achieving enough and give the impression that by winning the Olympic gold and the World Championships is a great achievement since no male singles player has done so. He talked of retiring prematurely because he has felt that he has done enough. He did mention that All England is the next title that he is eyeing and he would feel completely satisfied if he managed to win this title as he would be the first player to hold AE, Olympic Gold and the World Championships. My response to this on this forum against Taufik's fan is that this shows that Taufik is complacent on his achievements and that to be truly judged as the greatest one need to be dominant like Rudy Hartono for nearly a decade by winning AE 8 times. I think Taufik is full of himself judging by his attitude and comments that he make in interviews. Taufik is nowhere near as great as Rudy Hartono judging bis his achievements and yet he thinks he has done enough to be placed on the list of all time greats. I tell you that he is not even near to being on that list and if he really want to be regarded as such must continue playing and achieve a lot more. Another example is Bjorn Borg who prematurely retire after winning 5 consecutive Wimbledon titles but I know little of Bjorn Borg to label him as full of himself.

I know I am not a mind reader but we must be fair and say that when it comes to motives we can only speculate from the external factors which would be the evidence pointing at one's motive.

I never advocated for older players to keep on playing to the point of being a disgrace or embarassment to the sport. What I have been pushing is to play until a reasonable age where one is confident of being competitive and producing results by winning titles. My benchmark was at least 30 where it is reasonably held by badminton experts to be the age where one's form starts to decline with exceptions of doubles and some great singles players. The players themselves would be in the position to judge whether they are still competitive and able to produce results judging from training and results in tournaments as well as the capacity to know one's true form. It is retiring early for reasons that one thinks he/she has achieved enough which is my problem.

I have no problems with Agassi retiring since he was in his mid 30s when he retired. As for Sampras I don't know enough of him to label him full of himself but rather was slightly dissapointed to see him retire after winning US Open. I would like to see him at least try to win another Grand Slam or the French Open which he has never won. I don't think Sampras is full of himself because he didn't retire early and in my view is great and old enough to retire at that age. My motto is "it ain't bragging if it is the truth".

The Korean veterans that I was referring to are players older than the ones fielded at the Thomas Cup who are available to be selected into the team. Obviously the great veterans have retired so they cannot be considered to be selected. I have no knowledge of those retired Korean veterans retiring early. In any event those players most likely retired because they think they no longer can compete against the younger players and no longer produced the desired results. In that case what is the point of keep on playing and they wisely and intelligently retired which is exactly my point all along when a player should retire.

My point is that you think older players should retire to give way to the youngsters I strongly hold the view this is silly and unfair. If the older players still want to play and are beating the youngsters it is a silly policy to give their spot to the youngsters as if there is an affirmative action policy for youngsters. This is unfair discrimination. Why should the older player who are better give their spots away to youngsters which is your main argument? I know why you believe why but this is at the root of a very unfair policy that you espouse which breach the notion of equal rights and opportunity as well as individual rights.

Players like Mia Audina who represented Indonesia in the Uber Cup at 14 and Taufik who won his first international tournament at 16 didn't obtain their spots in the national team because the older players gave way to them which is a policy that you approve of. They fairly earned their spot by beating older players to be included in the team to play for their countries. This is the difference between the policy of selection which you approve and the policy that I approve. I want the best to be selected and play for the country be that they are older or younger players. You on the other hand have said that older players should give way to younger players to give them experience and exposure to international play to paraphrase. If the older players are still the best then they should remain if they are still winning titles. Nobody should be sacrificed in the name of a youth development program.

You are going to extremes when ou ask should Jimmy Connors slug it out against James Blake or Rudy Hartono against Taufik or Lin Dan. This is not my case. Off course if Rudy Hartono can beat Taufik or Lin Dan then why not keep on playing. The same goes to Connors if he can beat Blake but we both know this is impossible. So they should not come out from retirement. Martina Navratilova is a different case she came out of retirement and played singles but the moment she knew she was no longer competitive in singles she concentrated on doubles and mixed. She won titles and knew she was competitive which is my case of urging when a player should keep on playing or to a lesser extent come out of retirement.

Those come back attempts which have ended in disgrace or embarassment are the ones because they were out of touch with reality or they did it for financial reasons. Obviously one can judge their form or level of competitiveness at training and thus they would be able to judge whether they should proceed or not. If they know that they are no longer as competitive as they use to be and proceed this is their own fault. The keypoint is one should know whether one would be competitive enough to beat or at least match their opponents in the arena. On the case of Ben Johnson I must say that he was never that good because he was using illegal drugs when he was at his best.

On this point of a come back I must say that this is not my main point that I am arguing so to a lesser extent is not directly relevant to my main point. The only relevant point is that an athlete should compete if he/she knows that he/she is still competitive. I am all for saving the athlete embarassment of being thrashed in the arena. I believe there are good indicators which an athlete can measure his/her perfrormance before he/she enters the sporting arena. So if they proceed with competing in the arena when they know they are below their form then nobody is to blame but the athlete in concerned except maybe the coach and manager.:D

chris-ccc

02-25-2007, 07:01 AM

Hi sabathiel,

What a fantastically good post, and I agree with most of the things you wrote. :):):)

Unfortunately, Badminton is not a true Professional Sport at the moment.

All players are still under the National Team Structure. And all players are still required to undergo their vigorous National Training Schedule. And this is one of the main reasons why older players quit/retire.

You could imagine how hard it is for a 36 year (or even, not as old) trying to cope with new recruits, just 18 say, in their tough physical training.

Some National Coaches are saying that "If you are not fit enough, you should retire". And these National Coaches realise that these older and experienced players could produce better results, but they know they that they cannot make exceptions for them not to undergo their vigorous training.

So... what I am saying is that these older players retire because of the pain of training, not that they could not produce good results at tournaments.

After saying all that... I hope that Badminton will become a true Professional Sport as soon as possible. And when that happens, experienced players will not need to undergo their National Training Schedule.

They can be independent, like Tennis players, and they can hire their own private coaches. They don't even have to play for their country if it interferes with their professional income, although most of them would, as we can see, like for the Davis Cup in Tennis.

Cheers... chris@ccc

ctjcad

02-25-2007, 01:47 PM

(rest of sabathiel's post snipped for brevity)...

On this point of a come back I must say that this is not my main point that I am arguing so to a lesser extent is not directly relevant to my main point. The only relevant point is that an athlete should compete if he/she knows that he/she is still competitive. I am all for saving the athlete embarassment of being thrashed in the arena. I believe there are good indicators which an athlete can measure his/her perfrormance before he/she enters the sporting arena. So if they proceed with competing in the arena when they know they are below their form then nobody is to blame but the athlete in concerned except maybe the coach and manager.:D
..i can somewhat agree on what i've highlighted above..but i must concur wholeheartedly on what chris@ccc wrote that: i don't know if you're a professional athlete or not, but unless we ourselves are professional athletes(or actually in their shoes), we won't know how much it feels to compete and sacrifice all our lives to set out what we want to achieve..therefore we can't "label" pro athletes as such and such without actually actually feel what they've gone through ourselves.. :p;)

Anyways, well, sabathiel, as much as i'd like to respond and continue with this discussion, but after seeing/reading quite a lot of your past posts which ended in 2 threads being locked, incl. one which was locked abt a yr or so ago and contained a very dual-toned discussion(which involved yourself & not to put you on a negative term;)), i realized this particular discussion is, essentially, going no where(probably some BC members are laughing at us for continuing discussing this silly topic;):)). It's been an interesting discussion & i appreciate your efforts in responding, nonetheless. But rather than risking the fate of this thread and ending it like your other locked related threads, with kwun locking this thread, i think for the sake of keeping this thread *on-topic* & alive, i'll refrain and halt from making further replies to your posts...In a way, I should've known abt this before i started my "off-topic" discussions with you..;):)

Anyhoo, I think for now, let's just say you, me and everyone else are entitled to our own opinions..And to an extent & be fair, let's just say there are no right nor wrong answers/thoughts/opinions and we both can somewhat agree on each other's opinions..So, on that note, i'll end it here and we can take what we've wrote & go our own respected ways-unless if anyone else want to take you up on the discussion and continue this further;):)...
For now, hopefully, we can get back to discussing the original topic at hand once again:cool:..Once again, to kwun and others, sorry again for the off-topic discussions..:(:p

chris-ccc

02-25-2007, 06:22 PM

For now, hopefully, we can get back to discussing the original topic at hand once again:cool:..

Once again, to kwun and others, sorry again for the off-topic discussions..:(:p

Hi ctjcad and sabathiel,

For discussing/examining Badminton players' feeling/thinking and also what the BWF is planning for them......
please be invited to this thread= http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39747

Cheers... chris@ccc

ctjcad

02-25-2007, 07:29 PM

Hi ctjcad and sabathiel,

For discussing/examining Badminton players' feeling/thinking and also what the BWF is planning for them......
please be invited to this thread= http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39747

Cheers... chris@ccc
..appreciate for the invite, chris@ccc:) ..but i think for now, i'll just end this discussion as is; one that, after reviewing, IMO, is a bit "silly" to start/keep replying with if i'd known and read sabathiel's past posts..of course, i'm not prohibiting you or anyone else to continue with this..:)

sabathiel

02-25-2007, 11:48 PM

The discussion might not be directly relevant to the topic but sprang out from the topic and is thus indirectly relevant. In the absence of a warning from the authorities (eg Kwun) it is fair and safe to assume that we are free to continue with our discussions. The discussion is intellectual and civilised. I don't see why we shouldn't carry on for the benefit of badminton. It is better to carry on rather than let the thread die off slowly which it will eventually happen anyway.

The thread that got locked about a year ago was locked because the discussion was heated and began to become uncivilised. I was arguing with Indra about who is greater, Rudy Hartono or Taufik Hidayat. I didn't know Indra but on hindsight after knowing how subjective and ridicuolous Indra (proven by his silly and unrealistic match predictions) is in regard to Taufik is I should not have become involved with an argument with him.

I am not a pro athlete becaus badminton is not a pro sport but I have been involved in national competitions representing my home state and at a university level represented Australia overseas. So I can seak from direct personal knowledge of the game. I also trained with Mia Audina and her less known brother before she joined the national team under the coaching of her father.

I quit badminton totally at a relatively young age of 24. I recently make a come back at the age of 37 by playing competition again. It took me awhile to get into form and now I'm playing A grade badminton again and is competitive in singles and very competitive in doubles. The only thing that has declinedis the speed. In terms of stamina and endurance as proven by marathon runners players in their late 30s can still have high endurance on court. I trained with much younger player and can match them in the stamina department (after losing some weight). It maybe true that the training isn't as vigorous or demanding as the training in national teams or club training in Indonesia (I trained with Mia Audina and her brother under teh coaching of Mia's father) but it is still hard training especially for someone my age. So I am speaking from experience in this matter.

Joyous

02-26-2007, 01:12 AM

Firstly I must take my hats off to Kwun for such a thought provoking subject and his foresight in locking the thread when BC members become personal in their attacks on the players or other fans. Secondly, it's comforting to know that there are still many BC members who exercise professionalism, are impartial and cultured. That's why this thread is still on. Keep going guys.

Kelvin

04-25-2007, 04:43 AM

I didn't read too much in this thread, but just wanted to add...

In the very near future, I think Chen Jin can be added to contenders list.

It didn't dawn on me, until I saw his face again, with recent video footage... that I finally recognized, and put a name to his face...
But I did watch a few of the junior national & international tournaments this kid participated in quite some years ago now...

He is extremely talented... he's improved even further from his junior competition days...

I predict within the coming year and a bit, he will be butting heads in the finals with the other already greatly established greats of this generation. (edit: by this I mean, we should see him in final's of tournaments very very frequently, and even winning against some of his seniors)

Again, just my opinion :)

Now I wonder, if we could do an imaginary competition, and pitted all the greatest single's players against one another, in their prime... who would come out on top :D:D:D

moomoo

11-14-2011, 02:33 AM