Taufik was the first one who claimed that he will win if he wants to. But it is NOT true since he has lost to Chen Jin and never won against him.

So a guy claiming he will win if he wants to, must meet two criteria:

1) has won at least one tournament. This is easy

2) has beaten everyone whom he met. This is the real meaning he can win if he wants to.

As long as there is one player out there, Taufik lost but never won, then he should not be qualified to say he can win, simply there is no proof at all.

Taufik is NOT the guy who can win if he wants to, then who else are qualified?

Lin Dan - Lin Dan won a lot of tournaments, and did he lost to anyone whom he never won? As far as I know, there is none. So Lin Dan could claim he will win if he wants to, even though you or we, don't believe that, but he can say that, because he has the proof to win, and the proof to beat everyone he has met.

Chen Jin - Is this guy able to claim he's the one who will win if he wants to? I haven't checked all the records, he may be qualified too. I'm not good at rember head to head results, need to check

Chen Hong - need to check

Peter Gade - need to check

Lee CW - need to check

Bao CL - need to check

Taufik - No! He lost to Chen Jin and never won

Wong CH - No! he lost to Lin Dan and never won

Could some experts here clarify these players' qualifications to be self-claimed he will win if he wants?

Even a new comer can claim he will win if he wants to, as long as he has not lost to anyone. But once he lost to anyone and has not won anything back, then that disapproves he can win at least.

So if Taufik wants to say he will win if he wants to, he needs to beat Chen Jin first. (or maybe other players too, I'm not sure). Before beating Chen Jin, there is only proof he will lose if he meets Chen Jin. He can not say he can beat Chen Jin if he wants to now, simply because he lost to him and never won. If they had never met, we could believe him, if Taufik had beaten Chen Jin just 1 time, we could also believe him. But how to believe him winning someone he lost all but never won.

I think what Taufik meant by that was if he put's his mind to it he can beat anyone and win anything. It's probably true as I have never seen such a skilled player in my time. I agree he is cocky/bordering arrogant but oh boy can he back it up. He is the finest player to watch when he is focused and I think he will leave a huge void in the Badminton world when he retires. With Taufik you have to take the bad with the good but when he is good he is the master.

I think what Taufik meant by that was if he put's his mind to it he can beat anyone and win anything. It's probably true as I have never seen such a skilled player in my time. I agree he is cocky/bordering arrogant but oh boy can he back it up. He is the finest player to watch when he is focused and I think he will leave a huge void in the Badminton world when he retires. With Taufik you have to take the bad with the good but when he is good he is the master.

That's purely built on your emotion and enthusiasm ;)

What I said, is based on data and statistics. Everyone wants to claim if he put's his mind to it he can beat anyone. But the truth is there are people out there he has never beat, but only lost to.

You can claim something that's proved. That's perfect.

You can even claim something that has not been proved. That's the thing we need to see.

But you just cannot claim something that has been disapproved. That's against facts.

If you want to argue by logic, why limit the pool to competitive players? None of these players have played against me, so they can't claim they will win if he wants to, because there is no proof.

Not that I think of myself as one of the greatest players on earth, but I can argue from fact, that if A wins against B, B wins against C, it doesn't necessariy imply A will win against C. Therefore as long as there is one badminton player on earth LD has not played and won, he can't be said to be world #1 MS, because there is the possibility, however remote, that some unranked, non-pro player will beat LD. Absurd? You bet.

I'd consider the statement as figures of speech, not logically true statements, and won't bother to apply logic here.

You may claim Taufik is the most skilled player, but which doesn't mean he can beat anyone ;)

If you want to argue by logic, why limit the pool to competitive players? None of these players have played against me, so they can't claim they will win if he wants to, because there is no proof.

Not that I think of myself as one of the greatest players on earth, but I can argue from fact, that if A wins against B, B wins against C, it doesn't necessariy imply A will win against C. Therefore as long as there is one badminton player on earth LD has not played and won, he can't be said to be world #1 MS, because there is the possibility, however remote, that some unranked, non-pro player will beat LD. Absurd? You bet.

I'd consider the statement as figures of speech, not logically true statements, and won't bother to apply logic here.

I didn't limit the pool to competitive players, how did you get that?

Since they have not played with you, they of course, can claim they will win if they want to.

If you have not lost to anyone, you can claim you can beat anyone too. You just simply don't understand what I said.

I have never used transition law at all, your conclusion for me was absurd. I didn't ask Lin Dan to beat everyone on the earth. How did you draw that conclusion. I only said, the guy who claims he will win if he wants to, has to beat the one whom he has lost to. That guy, don't need to be the number 1, and don't need to play everyone either.

You got to understand what I said first, you totally misunderstood everything.

That's purely built on your emotion and enthusiasm ;)

What I said, is based on data and statistics. Everyone wants to claim if he put's his mind to it he can beat anyone. But the truth is there are people out there he has never beat, but only lost to.

You can claim something that's proved. That's perfect.

You can even claim something that has not been proved. That's the thing we need to see.

But you just cannot claim something that has been disapproved. That's against facts.
my take on TH.
The situation is that most people overlook other unfilled promises by TH because TH had won the OG, WC and AG. (even tho TH had never promised to win OG). The reason why TH has high success ratio in winning biggest the tournaments because he forgo most other lesser tournaments so he can maximize training and focus, and minimize injury going into those big tournaments. If u bet all your money in one big horse race instead of spreading the same money across several horse races, your chance of winning is higher. It's not magical, it is basic sound risk management.

Right now, TH rival is LD. If u remember all the LD vs TH meets, most if not all of these meets involved some kind of pre-game controverises. TH is a betting man so he would do things that would increase his odd of winnings, even outside the court. TH knows LD (basically 90% chinese players) weakness is mental, that's where TH like to work on pre-game softening his opponents. If the situation transform to being unfavorable to TH, he would fold or quit ASAP to prevent prolonging the embarassment (HKO, JO), and to prevent showing more of his cards to his opponent's coach.

If u bet all your money in one big horse race instead of spreading the same money across several horse races, your chance of winning is higher. It's not magical, it is basic sound risk management.
Don't put all your eggs in one basket though...

That's purely built on your emotion and enthusiasm ;)

What I said, is based on data and statistics. Everyone wants to claim if he put's his mind to it he can beat anyone. But the truth is there are people out there he has never beat, but only lost to.

You can claim something that's proved. That's perfect.

You can even claim something that has not been proved. That's the thing we need to see.

But you just cannot claim something that has been disapproved. That's against facts.

yep, yep, yep.......

my take on TH.
The situation is that most people overlook other unfilled promises by TH because TH had won the OG, WC and AG. (even tho TH had never promised to win OG). The reason why TH has high success ratio in winning biggest the tournaments because he forgo most other lesser tournaments so he can maximize training and focus, and minimize injury going into those big tournaments. If u bet all your money in one big horse race instead of spreading the same money across several horse races, your chance of winning is higher. It's not magical, it is basic sound risk management.

Right now, TH rival is LD. If u remember all the LD vs TH meets, most if not all of these meets involved some kind of pre-game controverises. TH is a betting man so he would do things that would increase his odd of winnings, even outside the court. TH knows LD (basically 90% chinese players) weakness is mental, that's where TH like to work on pre-game softening his opponents. If the situation transform to being unfavorable to TH, he would fold or quit ASAP to prevent prolonging the embarassment (HKO, JO), and to prevent showing more of his cards to his opponent's coach.

I heard TH did gaurantee a gold medal at the OG. I'm pretty sure thats what started all this. He gauranteed a win at arguably the most prestigous event in badminton and made good with his promise.

I don't know much about the legends before Zhao Jianhua. IMHO, I think the only person who can say that is Zhao Jianhua at his prime. I think TH is not even close.

right... another Taufik bashing thread, why not just change the title to "Taufik the cocky man who claimed that he can win anything is a big FAT LIE"?

Can we please stop all these pointless arguments, dont you think there are enough of these thread already? Taufik won the title that everybody dream of.. that is OG and he did it with grace.. just let it rest please..

By the way if you want to argue about statistic... the chances of him saying he will win AG06 and actually won it is highly unlikely, so u can rest assure that his victory was no luck or coincident.. he defied everything and went on to grab gold despite losing to LD on 2 occasion before the final, isn't that good enough already? What is there more to say about his about his own words? Please respect him for what he had achieved, that would be much appreciated. Thank you.

I'll reset the argument then.

Your interpretation 'x can win if he wants to' seems to mean,
For all player y that has played with x,
there is at least one game where x wins over y.
This only deals with 'can' but not 'want to' part of the statement.

The usual usage in English will render a different logical statement:
For all player y that has played with x,
for all games where x proclaims his intention to win before the game, he wins over y.

The latter has different truth values from the former. If I don't claim to want to win against y, I can lose every game to y and still claim I can win if I want to. The fact that I lost all games doesn't matter because I didn't 'want to' win in the first place. If I 'want to', well, it never happened, so it has not been disproved. There is no logical contradiction here.

TH is clever to make his statement this way. If he simply states 'he can win' then he needs to win at least one game against y, as you formulate.

There is a Chinese term for such victory: A-Q mental victory :)

Absolutely agree with that.

I don't know much about the legends before Zhao Jianhua. IMHO, I think the only person who can say that is Zhao Jianhua at his prime. I think TH is not even close.

I'm quite surprised with the responses to this thread. The main purpose of this thread is to find out who can brag he will win if he wants. Taufik is just an example. I'm not against Taufik, in fact, I'm a diehard fan of Taufik. It is just because I like him very much, so I checked whether or not he should say "he will win if he wants to". Then I found out he should not say that, because there are people out there, he lost to but never won yet. Then comes the main purpose of this thread who can brag "he will win if he wants to".

My two criteria are perfect to determine. This claim doesn't mean the guy has to be the greatest player of all time. Zhao Jianhua might be qualified for bragging (I need to check), but I'm sure there are also several players now can brag that too.

As for mettayogi, you haven't won any tournament yet. I have to say sorry to you that I have to ignore your post, you showed you cannot read, cannot think, cannot reason, what can I say?

This thread has nothing to do with OG, AG or any other xGs. This thread is for finding out who are those people who:

1) won at least 1 tournament
2) has beat anyone at least one time whom he's met before

It is clear that
1) he doesn't need to beat everyone in this planet.
2) he doesn't need to even have a winning record against anyone.

Thanks, please don't go off topic ;) ;) ;)

PS Why I am a diehard Taufik fan?
I'm the only one predicted that Lin Dan would lost to Taufik Hidayat in the Germany open. If I'm not his diehard fan, who is?

As for Simp84, it is you who not only treat players differently, and also treat matches differently. Comparing me, I think you are quite biased. My way to determine who can brag "he will win if he wants to", is fair to every player, and equal to every matches.

I used Lin Dan vs Taufik as an example. But they are not the topic of this thread. I have found out that Taufik has lost to Chen Jin, but never won yet. Simp84, if you think Taufik is better than Lin Dan, could you find out that:

are there anyone whom Lin Dan has lost to, but never won yet?

As for Simp84, it is you who not only treat players differently, and also treat matches differently. Comparing me, I think you are quite biased. My way to determine who can brag "he will win if he wants to", is fair to every player, and equal to every matches.

I used Lin Dan vs Taufik as an example. But they are not the topic of this thread. I have found out that Taufik has lost to Chen Jin, but never won yet. Simp84, if you think Taufik is better than Lin Dan, could you find out that:

are there anyone whom Lin Dan has lost to, but never won yet?

In my argument I have never mentioned who is the greatest, nor did I say Taufik is superior to LD..

I just stated that Taufik defied the odds in winning AG06 despite the prediction was totally against him, losing to LD 3x prior to the final (including jap open).. ok lets take that event as p<0.125 (well he was totally out of shape & in order for him to get beat every player I would say we give him 50% probability of beating them each of them.. they are Bao, LCW and LD.. therefore 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.125)

Now moving on back to OG, this man was unseeded and wasn't expected to win at all, lets give him the chance of winning is p<0.05 again (he was expected to be kick out in early round as he was not actively in training)
Now mutiply them both together - 0.125 x 0.05 = 0.00625..

This man claiming twice to win both event and the probability of that occuring is 0.625%, and yet he had done both? I would not consider this a bias argument, maybe I was a little bit bias with the olympic probability of winning, however even if you increase the probabilty of him winning the OG and multiply both of them together it is still under less than 5%..
It is very brave of him to claim something that will occur in less than 5% chance.. conincidence? Dont think so..

Taufik is arragont and he live up to his statement, I congradulate him for that, and I dont think it matters whether he beaten CJ or not, end of the day he had established his goals in badminton and no one can take that away I guess... Peace

Simp84, you are still talking about different things. This thread is to find out who can beat all the opponents he met before so that he can brag he will win if he wants to.

Nothing about OG, AG; Not about Lin Dan, Taufik only. Nothing to do with whether Taufik is arrogant and lives up to his statement.

This is a most absurd premise. Just because he has never beat Chen Jin, has he stated that he can win a specific match against him? Not to my knowledge. If he then makes that claim and fails to beat him, you might have a point.

Taufik did not claim he will beat every single person he comes up against, only that he will win if he wants to.

Why do you want a sports jock to talk so formal? Do you sit down with an english prof each night about what to say in public the next day?

his words "he can beat anyone when he wants to" came from his own personality, not some decade-long logical thesis he has developed about himself for public to analyze. Of course there are flaws, so relax about it...

This is a most absurd premise. Just because he has never beat Chen Jin, has he stated that he can win a specific match against him? Not to my knowledge. If he then makes that claim and fails to beat him, you might have a point.

Taufik did not claim he will beat every single person he comes up against, only that he will win if he wants to.

If he lost to Chen Jin, but has not beat Chen Jin even once, how can he claim he will win if he wants to?

What one person can promise is himself performance, he cannot pick whom he fight for next round. If he claims he will win if he wants to, then he has to be prepared for all opponents.

I already allow he to brag to beat anyone never met, I also allow him to brag to beat anyone even had losing head-to-head records, but I don't believe his brag to win anyone whom he lost but never won over.

This is very natural logic. If you think this is the most absurd, then what's your definition for his "he will win if he wants to"?

When you blame something, you got to have your own logic reasoning :rolleyes:

Why do you want a sports jock to talk so formal? Do you sit down with an english prof each night about what to say in public the next day?

his words "he can beat anyone when he wants to" came from his own personality, not some decade-long logical thesis he has developed about himself for public to analyze. Of course there are flaws, so relax about it...

What you said might be true. But now, let us totally forget Taufik, just let us explore who is really the guy who can brag that he will win if he wants to.

I think this is a very interesting topic. Because this is the new way to view the potentials of the players. If he has beaten everyone he met (even though the head-to-head is not in his favour), he is also a great player to be known.

I think this topic is so natural, how come still people did not understand.

Even when I play with my friends. If I have lost to someone, and have never won over him, I will not dare to claim that I will win if I want to.

Once I beat him once, even though I still had 1-10 losing head-to-head against him, I can brag i will win if i want to.

When I have never won this guy but lost continuously, I would never brag I will win if I want to. This is not just shameless, it is against the basic facts.

Lindan is definitely the one who will win if he wants to :)

He beats everyone:
Lindan vs Lee CW: 5:2
Lindan vs Chen Jin: 5:0
Lindan vs Taufik: 9:4

Chen Hong, Bao CL, Lee CW, and Peter Gade are also the ones who can brag that he will win if he wants to by your definition.

Chen Jin and Chen Yu are not because they have yet beaten Lindan. But I think Chen Yu has beaten Lindan in China national games.

Taufik is not because he lost to Chen Jin and not won yet as you said.

With so many people disagreeing, have you considered the possibility of your logic not being "natural," yet flawed?

Taufik can argue that he has not beat Chen Jin because the latter never stood in his way in a tournament he promised to win. With this in mind, TH can still claim that based on his previous major results, he can get up for any one given tournament and win it. Simple as that.

I am not saying he is correct in his statement, just that it's not logically flawed. His results against CJ cannot be used to prove his statement true or false as he can simply say he didn't have his heart set on X match, unless previously stated to the contrary by him.

According to your logic, anyone who wants to claim that only need to win the first encounter against every new opponent, then no matter how many games he lost after that, he can still say "I can win if I want to".

Furthermore, what Taufik means by "win" is to win big titles, not individual matches. Although I do not agree with the absurd "Taufik can win if he wants to" theory, he is indeed the one who is closest.

Finally I think your criterion does not take into account anything about the "want to" part. LD cannot claim that because he obviously "wanted" to win OG (he even planned how to celebrate after winning), he didn't. Then he obviously "wanted" to win 05WC, he didn't either. Finally he obviously "wanted" to win AG (he said he lost to LHI because he had been thinking about the MS even too much), he didn't.

So the "can win if want to" claim is really not about how many opponents you can beat, that's more about consistency. It is more about what is the highest level you can reach, if you are fully prepared and motivated. That is very very different from consistency.

Taufik was the first one who claimed that he will win if he wants to. But it is NOT true since he has lost to Chen Jin and never won against him.

So a guy claiming he will win if he wants to, must meet two criteria:

1) has won at least one tournament. This is easy

2) has beaten everyone whom he met. This is the real meaning he can win if he wants to.

As long as there is one player out there, Taufik lost but never won, then he should not be qualified to say he can win, simply there is no proof at all.

Taufik is NOT the guy who can win if he wants to, then who else are qualified?

Lin Dan - Lin Dan won a lot of tournaments, and did he lost to anyone whom he never won? As far as I know, there is none. So Lin Dan could claim he will win if he wants to, even though you or we, don't believe that, but he can say that, because he has the proof to win, and the proof to beat everyone he has met.

Chen Jin - Is this guy able to claim he's the one who will win if he wants to? I haven't checked all the records, he may be qualified too. I'm not good at rember head to head results, need to check

Chen Hong - need to check

Peter Gade - need to check

Lee CW - need to check

Bao CL - need to check

Taufik - No! He lost to Chen Jin and never won

Wong CH - No! he lost to Lin Dan and never won

Could some experts here clarify these players' qualifications to be self-claimed he will win if he wants?

Latest checkups:

Kenneth Jonassen cannot brag that because he lost to Lindan 0:6

Hafiz cannot brag that because he also lost to Lindan 0:7

Ok, I have checked all the top players. Only the following 5 guys can brag to win if wants to:

Lindan, Chen Hong, Bao CL, Lee CW, and Peter Gade.

Lindan has an amazing head-to-head records against everyone. He never lost to Chen Jin, Chen Yu, Kenneth Jonassen, and Hafiz. Although Taufik had won against Lindan, but lost to Chen Jin without any win.

Simp84, you are still talking about different things. This thread is to find out who can beat all the opponents he met before so that he can brag he will win if he wants to.

Nothing about OG, AG; Not about Lin Dan, Taufik only. Nothing to do with whether Taufik is arrogant and lives up to his statement.
Your topic is "who can say that he will win if he wants to.." and furthermore your started your topic with this statement "Taufik was the first one who claimed that he will win if he wants to. But it is NOT true since he has lost to Chen Jin and never won against him." So it is right of me to argue the way I did since I think he can back up his statement whenever needed...

Let me challenge your 2nd criterior, that is an unfair criterior.. first of all you totally ignored the fact that some player participate less compared to others.. secondly, the draw does not always allow the two players to meet together.. because lets face the fact.. CJ is still a new player and still improving.. so we might see more of TH vs CJ in future.. I dont know

But I really think it doesn't matter who beats who, in the end whats more important is the player themself proving their achievements... TH won OG like he always dream of.. LD becoming world #1 and his dream title the WC... Hafiz won AE.. so and so...
And I dont think people brag about beating anyone they want...

Taufik was the first one who claimed that he will win if he wants to.

You will find Taufik has never admitted that or said anything of the sort. The media and Taufik's fans have said this in defense or as an excuse for his erratic performances.

kekeke... "I" will be the next AE champ.... LD will fall to on his knees upon our our match in finals hahah!! *crap!! as if i can win dem hahaha*

Frankly, any player can say the infamous statement "If I want to win, I can" & whether that comes to past or not will be left to be seen. With the exception of TH, I haven't read of any other players making such a statements altho' many do say that they would like or hope to win.

Arggh....what is it that TH is not capable of uttering....and with the most recent incident, the end result is bye-bye to AE 2007....hmmm....wisdom...wisdom....

lin dan is the winningest MS in modern time
korean Hwan Park beat lin dan twice, 2:0
i would say Hwan Park can boast himself to say he can beat them all:p

lin dan is the winningest MS in modern time
korean Hwan Park beat lin dan twice, 2:0
i would say Hwan Park can boast himself to say he can beat them all:p

I checked that already. Lindan beat Park Sung Hwan also in the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 2006. So their head to head is at least 2:1 not 2:0. I remember that Lindan also beat Park before year 2004 but the internationalbadminton.org web site doesn't have complete records.

Even just using the imcomplete internationalbadminton.org records, Lindan also has beaten Park in wc 2006, so Lindan is one of the guys who have beat everyone they met.

Thanks for your checking :D

In conclusion,
Lin Dan has beaten all the players... In the exception of those he has yet to play against.... :)

I checked that already. Lindan beat Park Sung Hwan also in the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 2006. So their head to head is at least 2:1 not 2:0. I remember that Lindan also beat Park before year 2004 but the internationalbadminton.org web site doesn't have complete records.

Even just using the imcomplete internationalbadminton.org records, Lindan also has beaten Park in wc 2006, so Lindan is one of the guys who have beat everyone they met.

Thanks for your checking :Dthanks, i stand corrected:(

Nobody has the authority to say he will win if he wants to, unless he has a near 100% record (losses only because of withdrawal or orders).

Who wants to lose?

I don't know much about the legends before Zhao Jianhua. IMHO, I think the only person who can say that is Zhao Jianhua at his prime. I think TH is not even close.

im pretty sure about that too. Nobody ever came close to him when he was in his prime.

As for mettayogi, you haven't won any tournament yet. I have to say sorry to you that I have to ignore your post, you showed you cannot read, cannot think, cannot reason, what can I say?

2cents, thats abit harsh...... But i like it very much.:D:D:D:D

You will find Taufik has never admitted that or said anything of the sort. The media and Taufik's fans have said this in defense or as an excuse for his erratic performances.

Agree. Actually, I believe Indra's the one who made that statement and he 's not wrong to claim that about his idol. Let me clarify what Indra means if I read him correctly. It is to do with TH's motivation. You see, TH is one of a kind. While all other players are motivated to win, TH has shown that he can turn up in a tournament to lose or not play, so that he can maybe go shopping or whatever. In the few times at SPO AVIVA Open here, I remember he turned up; lost once in the 1st round to some unknown, skipped play another year, citing injury and left last year without sweating because the Singapore media was trying to be clever and wrote some juicy story about his personal life. (I hope the media here have learned their lesson if they want to see TH play.)
He got motivated to play in SPO05 because LD was competing.
What Indra meant is "when TH is motivated to win, he can". So it depends on whether he's willing to put in the hard work to shore up his fitness. When not 100% fit, he has taken out LD (AG06). When fully fit, where would LD be? However, luck's on LD 's side. I doubt TH will ever be fully fit.He's just too lazy. Also TH needs a strong INA crowd to help him win cos they energise him, boosting his limited stamina. He's unlikely to play in Europe because of that but I may be wrong.(And what's there to shop in England if he had gone to the AE?!)

2cents, thats abit harsh...... But i like it very much.:D:D:D:D
tat's even more harsh dude hahahaha :D

I believe NO ONE can just "win when they feel like it". Unless you're some kind of badminton god with complete control over the game then you just can't do that. As long as luck plays a part in the sport (and it does, as well as other unpredictable factors), you will never be able to perfectly predict the outcome of a game.

In Taufik's case and most players I'd say, they do play a lot better when they have that motivation to win. They can't be 100% sure that they will win but they definitely have a higher chance than if they don't.

May I ask when exactly did Taufik state that he can "win anything when he wants to"? Proof would be nice also if possible. If it was just a one off promise to his country or whatever (eg. saying that he will win the olympic gold), then that's not quite the same thing. Many players make such promises.

2cents,
Your poor command of English is only exceeded by your bad manners.

People who suffer from Bush syndrome just can't help themselves.

lol, maybe taufik has not decided to play serious against chen jin

Agree. Actually, I believe Indra's the one who made that statement and he 's not wrong to claim that about his idol. Let me clarify what Indra means if I read him correctly. It is to do with TH's motivation. You see, TH is one of a kind. While all other players are motivated to win, TH has shown that he can turn up in a tournament to lose or not play, so that he can maybe go shopping or whatever. In the few times at SPO AVIVA Open here, I remember he turned up; lost once in the 1st round to some unknown, skipped play another year, citing injury and left last year without sweating because the Singapore media was trying to be clever and wrote some juicy story about his personal life. (I hope the media here have learned their lesson if they want to see TH play.)
He got motivated to play in SPO05 because LD was competing.
What Indra meant is "when TH is motivated to win, he can". So it depends on whether he's willing to put in the hard work to shore up his fitness. When not 100% fit, he has taken out LD (AG06). When fully fit, where would LD be? However, luck's on LD 's side. I doubt TH will ever be fully fit.He's just too lazy. Also TH needs a strong INA crowd to help him win cos they energise him, boosting his limited stamina. He's unlikely to play in Europe because of that but I may be wrong.(And what's there to shop in England if he had gone to the AE?!)



u are defintely well biased...its ok for taufik to show up whenever he wants...hes still fresh while LD battles it out throught out the year...and also wot so lucky abt LD? hes achieved hes position by playin most tournaments...and every player gets adavantage playin in the home crowd...dun get me wrong TH is a great talent n very naturally gifted i wouldnt say hes beeter than LD..i just cant stand die hardd TH supporters makin excuses for him everytime when things go's wrong

.(And what's there to shop in England if he had gone to the AE?!)

pjswift pls do not embarass urself with dumbass comments

Although I am a die-hard ZJH fan, I have to disagree with your comment. ZJH lost many games which he really wanted to win. For example, 1987 WC semifinal against Frost, 1992 Olympics against Hermawan, etc.

The truth is, if ZJH feels good, he can just demolish anyone, no matter how good their forms are. But he has not much control over his form, even if he really wanted to win, it is still very possible that he would not be in the best form when playing.

Finally, I agree that Taufik at his very best is still miles away from ZJH at his very best. But I do think others are even further behind.

I don't know much about the legends before Zhao Jianhua. IMHO, I think the only person who can say that is Zhao Jianhua at his prime. I think TH is not even close.

Agree. Actually, I believe Indra's the one who made that statement and he 's not wrong to claim that about his idol. Let me clarify what Indra means if I read him correctly. It is to do with TH's motivation. You see, TH is one of a kind. While all other players are motivated to win, TH has shown that he can turn up in a tournament to lose or not play, so that he can maybe go shopping or whatever. In the few times at SPO AVIVA Open here, I remember he turned up; lost once in the 1st round to some unknown, skipped play another year, citing injury and left last year without sweating because the Singapore media was trying to be clever and wrote some juicy story about his personal life. (I hope the media here have learned their lesson if they want to see TH play.)
He got motivated to play in SPO05 because LD was competing.
What Indra meant is "when TH is motivated to win, he can". So it depends on whether he's willing to put in the hard work to shore up his fitness. When not 100% fit, he has taken out LD (AG06). When fully fit, where would LD be? However, luck's on LD 's side. I doubt TH will ever be fully fit.He's just too lazy. Also TH needs a strong INA crowd to help him win cos they energise him, boosting his limited stamina. He's unlikely to play in Europe because of that but I may be wrong.(And what's there to shop in England if he had gone to the AE?!)

So you're saying the 100% superfit Taufik will beat 100% superfit Lin Dan? The funny thing is each time when Taufik lost then the excuse is because he's not really fit ... The only active player that come close to claim that "statement" should be Lin Dan which I had crowned him 2006 Man of the year !!!

Actually I think 100% fit TH - 100% fit LD about 52:48. When ppl say "Taufik not fit", usually the fact is quite obvious. For example, slow movement (not because opponent using deceptive shot etc.), inability to jump smash, etc. Because we have seen how a "fit" Taufik played in 04 and 05, so we can easily tell that in 06, Taufik was far from fit.

Of course, whether Taufik can be "fit" again, is another question.

So you're saying the 100% superfit Taufik will beat 100% superfit Lin Dan? The funny thing is each time when Taufik lost then the excuse is because he's not really fit ... The only active player that come close to claim that "statement" should be Lin Dan which I had crowned him 2006 Man of the year !!!

Actually I think 100% fit TH - 100% fit LD about 52:48. When ppl say "Taufik not fit", usually the fact is quite obvious. For example, slow movement (not because opponent using deceptive shot etc.), inability to jump smash, etc. Because we have seen how a "fit" Taufik played in 04 and 05, so we can easily tell that in 06, Taufik was far from fit.

Of course, whether Taufik can be "fit" again, is another question.

What happened is: SInce Taufik suffered from a very serious waist injury in 2006 (remember prior to TC 2006), he has very often lost not only to LD, but also to other "weak" players...Sustaining injury for a long period of time certainly has deprived himself regular practices and as a result this condition has very significantly affected his performance.

However, since Japan Open, TH has shown improvement as to his injury recovery, yet I have to admit that he has not recovered to a 100% fit condition...We can see that he has tried to avoid as much as he can to smash or chase the shuttlecock if he thinks that will only hurt him .... Despite his seldom doing smashes, he has still managed to control his opponents due to his super wrist-talent and skills in placing the birdy, LCW, PG, Bao. WIth all these limitations, TH is still hard to defeat even by a player of Lin Dan calibre...if we look at the recent matches between them, it is clear that the matches were actually 50:50...Yet, if we look at Final AG, with his strong determination despite his previous 2 consecutive losses, he managed to defeat LD in straight sets...

Before TH was injured, LD was just like Chen Hong when meeting TH...He was down before coming to court....

Look at what happened in SIngapore Open 2005 SF..., look at the Final WC 2005 ...TH was the king....that's before he was injured.

In my argument I have never mentioned who is the greatest, nor did I say Taufik is superior to LD..

I just stated that Taufik defied the odds in winning AG06 despite the prediction was totally against him, losing to LD 3x prior to the final (including jap open).. ok lets take that event as p<0.125 (well he was totally out of shape & in order for him to get beat every player I would say we give him 50% probability of beating them each of them.. they are Bao, LCW and LD.. therefore 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.125)

Now moving on back to OG, this man was unseeded and wasn't expected to win at all, lets give him the chance of winning is p<0.05 again (he was expected to be kick out in early round as he was not actively in training)
Now mutiply them both together - 0.125 x 0.05 = 0.00625..

This man claiming twice to win both event and the probability of that occuring is 0.625%, and yet he had done both? I would not consider this a bias argument, maybe I was a little bit bias with the olympic probability of winning, however even if you increase the probabilty of him winning the OG and multiply both of them together it is still under less than 5%..
It is very brave of him to claim something that will occur in less than 5% chance.. conincidence? Dont think so..

Taufik is arragont and he live up to his statement, I congradulate him for that, and I dont think it matters whether he beaten CJ or not, end of the day he had established his goals in badminton and no one can take that away I guess... Peace

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Swiss open is a perfect opportunity for Taufik to verify "he will win if he wants to".

Taufik will meet Chen Jin in semi if both of them can get there. I hope Taufik win so that his claim becoming making sense.

Before TH was injured, LD was just like Chen Hong when meeting TH...He was down before coming to court....

Look at what happened in SIngapore Open 2005 SF..., look at the Final WC 2005 ...TH was the king....that's before he was injured.


i bet ALL the top pros have some sort injuries, not only TH.

So, if TH was king in 2005 and before, how many weeks was he ranked as #1?

right... another Taufik bashing thread, why not just change the title to "Taufik the cocky man who claimed that he can win anything is a big FAT LIE"?

Can we please stop all these pointless arguments, dont you think there are enough of these thread already? Taufik won the title that everybody dream of.. that is OG and he did it with grace.. just let it rest please..

By the way if you want to argue about statistic... the chances of him saying he will win AG06 and actually won it is highly unlikely, so u can rest assure that his victory was no luck or coincident.. he defied everything and went on to grab gold despite losing to LD on 2 occasion before the final, isn't that good enough already? What is there more to say about his about his own words? Please respect him for what he had achieved, that would be much appreciated. Thank you.
u should know that all the circumstances leading up to 06 AG. TH created commotion and disruption to throw LD off; hko walkout, play half hazardly in the Opens he entered so LD or chinese coaches can't read his form, fold his rubber game at JO, starting media chaos by leaking comment about LD being arrogant, etc. If u watch the 06 AG, LD wasn't really in rhythm. TH won it (and 05 WC) because LD was mentally off balance or unfocused. If u watch all the LD wins against TH matches, LD won them on physical skills (speed, power, tactic). LD alway has a hessitant form when playing against TH. U can count TH persona as talent too but since as an audience myself, TH presence doesn't influence my judgement on that guy. That's why i can see into TH's off court shenanigans.

remember that in OG and AG, not all the chineses are fielded. If LD can't do TH in, good chance CJ & CY can finish TH. Unfortunately, OG, AG are high status event, they are perceived highly than Opens although it is much harder to take titles from an Open. Yes, TH had won many INA Opens but again, the best chinese MS stay home for that event.

...

remember that in OG and AG, not all the chineses are fielded. If LD can't do TH in, good chance CJ & CY can finish TH. Unfortunately, OG, AG are high status event, they are perceived highly than Opens although it is much harder to take titles from an Open. Yes, TH had won many INA Opens but again, the best chinese MS stay home for that event.

You are absolutely right. OG, AG are much less competitive than regular opens because 1) less high ranked players, for example, Lin Dan was world number one 6 years ago, but didn't compete in the AG; 2) less entries; 3) even small entry, there are quite number of people from underdeveloped badminton countries, like some players even playing in hijab last time in Doha. All these made OG, AG much less competitive and like highly random gambles.

You are absolutely right. OG, AG are much less competitive than regular opens because 1) less high ranked players, for example, Lin Dan was world number one 6 years ago, but didn't compete in the AG; 2) less entries; 3) even small entry, there are quite number of people from underdeveloped badminton countries, like some players even playing in hijab last time in Doha. All these made OG, AG much less competitive and like highly random gambles.

I think you're missing the huge amount of preparation the players must go through before a tournament as important as the OG. Not to mention the huge motivation they will all have to win a medal. It's a once or twice in a lifetime opportunity, no player in the whole tournament is going to give it any less than their absolute all. If you ask me you're not looking much further than the obvious numbers as to why tournaments like the OG are held in such high regard. Theres a lot more to it than number of players :rolleyes:. All of your "3 points" say exactly the same thing slightly reworded.

So you're saying the 100% superfit Taufik will beat 100% superfit Lin Dan? The funny thing is each time when Taufik lost then the excuse is because he's not really fit ... The only active player that come close to claim that "statement" should be Lin Dan which I had crowned him 2006 Man of the year !!!

When is LD not ever 100% superfit? He's not called Super Dan for nothing. He's a living rechargeable battery. The boy's born to work otherwise his pretty XXF won't be able to keep up with him.

When is LD not ever 100% superfit? He's not called Super Dan for nothing. He's a living rechargeable battery. The boy's born to work otherwise his pretty XXF won't be able to keep up with him.No active professional athletes are 100% fit. LD just don't whine about it like TH.

If LD is truly less injured than TH(even when LD plays more tournaments than TH) , then doesn't this imply that LD is a better player than TH since LD beating his opponents with less injury, meaning better footwork and overall skills?

No active professional athletes are 100% fit. LD just don't whine about it like TH.

If LD is truly less injured than TH(even when LD plays more tournaments than TH) , then doesn't this imply that LD is a better player than TH since LD beating his opponents with less injury, meaning better footwork and overall skills?

When the rubber game gets washed out, it usually indicates a difference of stamina.