Chen’s comeback bad for China, says coach Yongbo

[Dimplex]

hey guys i recently read this from thestar:



Chen’s comeback bad for China, says coach Yongbo
BEIJING: China badminton coach Li Yongbo said Chen Hong’s comeback to competition after retiring for only two months was not good for the national team.
World No.5 Chen Hong, who quit the national team after being omitted from the talent-rich squad for last December’s Asian Games, returned to action this week as a free player at the Asian Badminton Championships (ABC) in Malaysia.
Chen Hong, competing as a free agent outside the national team – paying his own tour expenses but keeping all of his winnings – was “absolutely not a good thing for the national team”, Yongbo told yesterday’s Beijing Youth Daily.
“When Chen Hong first brought up his retirement, he was still a top player, and it wasn’t the case that he had no chance of competing at next year’s Olympics,” Yongbo said.
The coaching staff had worked hard to keep him, Yongbo said, but Chen Hong had insisted.
“In the end, we approved his retirement out of respect for his wishes. But now he is playing under his own name. As far as we’re concerned, this is, of course, not a good thing.
Chen Hong, who recently secured a sponsorship with a Chinese clothing company, yesterday broke through to the semi-finals at the on-going ABC meet in Johor Baru.
He beat Japan’s Yousuke Nakanishi 21-15, 12-21, 21-16.
China’s paternal sport administrations take a dim view of athletes perceived to have shunned national team goals in the pursuit of personal gain.
Last month, Olympic diving champion Tian Liang retired after being banished from the national team for several years for taking part in too many commercial activities. – Reuters


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Personally I believe Chen Hong has the right to play as an individual 'enterprise', but maybe thats because I come from a democratic country...not a communist one like China where it isnt exactly good to place yourself before the common goals of the team. As a badminton fan I really couldn't care less about the politics involved with national sports bodies, as long as skilled players such as Chen continue playing im happy:p

What is everyone elses view this matter?

[ants]

I'm not suprised by his move... years ago he did told me about moving out from Team China.. but i didnt expect him to retire and come out from retirement so fast.. anyway its good for him.

[sabathiel]

Good for Chen Hong for being an individual in communist China! *applauds*

[fabcargo]

Does anyone know if he is accompanied by any chinese coach now? Or is he alone during tournaments?

thanks!

BTW. I fully support his decision to play on his own. True that China Badminton made him like he is today. But eventually young players will emerge and there will be no more spot for him. When that time comes he can decide to play on his own. I think China Badminton should accept this fact of life too.

[2cents]

When people (including everyone here) claimed Chen Hong's retire. I did point out he would continue to play (for Taiwan perhaps). I didn't know him personally, and I didn't have any evidence that time. But I knew he would not retire definitely just by feeling the words he said before.

This time, Chen Hong flight to Malaysia with nobody but himself. This approves again that coaching is not that important. Even the training is not that important either. I still think he will go to Taiwan sooner or later. There is not much space for personal development in China. Good luck to him.

LYB also said, Chen Hong will phase out quickly just by himself. He must have trained himself in his backyard with his father. Once he goes to Taiwan, he can be both a player and a coach. at least he can play with another professional player, his wife, (cannot remember her name).

[kktan]

wah.. now i know. China BA so "kia su" one.

support chen hong. hope !!! i dun see any reason it is no good as per yong bo. one has to "take care" of one self.

[jgao_net]

i can kind of understand why LYB would be a bit upset. China put a lot of money and time to produce a player like CH. i can guarantee that China is expecting money back from him, not only for the effort that had to provide but also to keep their training regime going.

also, LYB could fear that this could set a bad example for other players (especially younger ones) who are just starting out on the national team.

[angelatby]

i can kind of understand why LYB would be a bit upset. China put a lot of money and time to produce a player like CH. i can guarantee that China is expecting money back from him, not only for the effort that had to provide but also to keep their training regime going.

also, LYB could fear that this could set a bad example for other players (especially younger ones) who are just starting out on the national team.

No man, LYB only thinks for himself. He is afraid of the rumours that the prize money is not good for China players with CH playing as a free-agent now. He keep saying it isnt a good thing for the national team is all because of his own dignity and reputation. Who cares as long as CH is enjoying although the winning(s) all goes to him alone, sounds bad :rolleyes:

[kktan]

LYB small gas... in lay man term?

[jimbo]

Is Chen Hong still representing China in tournaments? I understand he has secured a local sponsorship but does it mean he could play in 2008 Olympics if he qualified?

Yeah, I can understand why LYB is upset about Chen Hong, but I dun like LYB either. He has shown no respects to spectators (who bought tickets to watch all-china players final in few tournaments) and the great badminton itself. Shame to U, LYB.

[X Ball]

I would give Chen Hong PR so that he can play for a new country. He is worth it even if it is for a couple of years of play.

[jimbo]

I would give Chen Hong PR so that he can play for a new country. He is worth it even if it is for a couple of years of play.

Yes, only a few players in the world can beat Chen Hong. At LCW's current form, I doubt he can beat CH.

[bic33]

Even though i'm chinese, i would say that some of their rules and ideologies are like joke... I mean, if Chen Hong's intention is to really qualify for the olympics, china just can't take away a portion of his tourney winnings (like the one they're doing with Yao Ming) because CH needs it to compete and to register in top tournaments... I also can't see the reason why LYB won't allow CH to train by himself... I mean, if CH will represent China afterall, and let's say win the olympics, China didn't spend any money for Chen Hong's training... It's like double bonus... getting a gold and not spending any money...

[volcom]

Less match fixing

[glencomienda111]

i support chen hong...omho maybe the reason why LYB's not happy with it b'cuz it might give some ideas to the other players(specially the younger generation like what jgao_net said) that "hmmm....i could play for myself and ill keep all the winnings"....just a thought

[bic33]

i support chen hong...omho maybe the reason why LYB's not happy with it b'cuz it might give some ideas to the other players(specially the younger generation like what jgao_net said) that "hmmm....i could play for myself and ill keep all the winnings"....just a thought
yeah, that could be a reason... but let's remember that if you're in a "single enterprise," the national team will not handle your expenses... And more or less, you will be spending your winnings in plane tickets, hotels and tourney registrations... in CH's case, i don't think that Victor is fully sponsoring him... afterall, yonex sponsored players are fully sponsored either...

[glencomienda111]

maybe after all the years hes been playing and winning hes already saved some for these kinds of situation. even if victor's not fully sponsoring him, a little goes a long way.

[kktan]

I would give Chen Hong PR so that he can play for a new country. He is worth it even if it is for a couple of years of play.

u think is he apply for pR here.. will malaysia govt approve?? i doubt so...:)

[Shifty]

it might not be good to Team China as a whole, having someone lie to them, after all, in a team, it should be one for all and all for one. to just quit then turn against someone must've taken everyone by surprise, i can understand LYB's concern but in the end, it's CH's choice, i just think he should've though about what his actions would do to his impression within the chinese team.

[OneToughBirdie]

Less match fixing
You are right on.

[kktan]

badminton also got match fixing??

[nugroho]

YAH...... how could you play better with the same mistake you made .....?
and every body has their style of playing...

[dannyang]

Personally I believe Chen Hong has the right to play as an individual 'enterprise', but maybe thats because I come from a democratic country...not a communist one like China where it isnt exactly good to place yourself before the common goals of the team. As a badminton fan I really couldn't care less about the politics involved with national sports bodies, as long as skilled players such as Chen continue playing im happy:p

yes, chen hong definitely has the right to play individually. But from his interview shown on TV, he is a province player in China now(not national player)and will represent China to play tournament. he claimed that he will never play for Taiwan and only play for China, although he retired from national team and join the province team now. he said "his previous retirement was due to his marriage, he is a husband and is responsible for the family.but he like badminton so much. he will train in the province team and will be financed by a chinese company (Victory ltd)". And LYB is happy due to CH's coming back. and LYB promised "everyone has the chance to play in Olympic Game if they get enough points, particularly a good player like CH". and CH also said to media, "he will not make LYB disapointed."

i don't know why people always make up negative news about china and keep blaming LYB(i can't deny that some may be true).Actually LYB welcome CH's back to province team and said "this is a good example(CH financed by a company) for other chinese young players who are gifted but currently not a national player to play in tournament".

additionally, i read someone said "less fixing match" in this post. Do you have the evidence? if yes, show us. if no, please stop to say so and respect LYB.
In AE open 05, I remembered someone posted that the MS final was fixed due to the fact that LD lost to CH. then people started to blame LYB. they said LD lost to CH because LD was ranked world no1, so he gave some points to CH. In AE open 07 MS final, LD easily won the title, ironically, someone thought match was fixed again, because CY was not happy on his face.
i wonder why not LYB let CY win if the match were fixed.

pls respect LYB!!!

[vching]

overall, its good for the badminton community as a whole - Chen Hong is a very good player, and since he is playing as an individual, we can see his true potential, and less match fixing from yongbo.

and li yongbo should get a life. go cry some other place - do you make the decisions for the players? this control freak wants everything to do with china badminton to stay under his watchful nose - very soon i'm sure he will cry until up up there among the authorities and get chen hong banned. I think chen hong should fast fast leave china and come somewhere else - where he can escape from the crybaby snob li yongbo.

[vching]

Personally I believe Chen Hong has the right to play as an individual 'enterprise', but maybe thats because I come from a democratic country...not a communist one like China where it isnt exactly good to place yourself before the common goals of the team. As a badminton fan I really couldn't care less about the politics involved with national sports bodies, as long as skilled players such as Chen continue playing im happy:p

yes, chen hong definitely has the right to play individually. But from his interview shown on TV, he is a province player in China now(not national player)and will represent China to play tournament. he claimed that he will never play for Taiwan and only play for China, although he retired from national team and join the province team now. he said "his previous retirement was due to his marriage, he is a husband and is responsible for the family.but he like badminton so much. he will train in the province team and will be financed by a chinese company (Victory ltd)". And LYB is happy due to CH's coming back. and LYB promised "everyone has the chance to play in Olympic Game if they get enough points, particularly a good player like CH". and CH also said to media, "he will not make LYB disapointed."

i don't know why people always make up negative news about china and keep blaming LYB(i can't deny that some may be true).Actually LYB welcome CH's back to province team and said "this is a good example(CH financed by a company) for other chinese young players who are gifted but currently not a national player to play in tournament".

additionally, i read someone said "less fixing match" in this post. Do you have the evidence? if yes, show us. if no, please stop to say so and respect LYB.
In AE open 05, I remembered someone posted that the MS final was fixed due to the fact that LD lost to CH. then people started to blame LYB. they said LD lost to CH because LD was ranked world no1, so he gave some points to CH. In AE open 07 MS final, LD easily won the title, ironically, someone thought match was fixed again, because CY was not happy on his face.
i wonder why not LYB let CY win if the match were fixed.

pls respect LYB!!!

i will respect a person where respect is due - not someone that wants to break a players (lcw) leg just becauase his disciple is against him.

i dont think that control freak 'welcomed ' CH's return. i though in the STAR newpaper he said it was not good for china?

if you want better badminton, you should hope that CH dosent join the national team - or he will suddenly 'break' his leg again and recover a day later like chen yu

[dannyang]

i will respect a person where respect is due - not someone that wants to break a players (lcw) leg just becauase his disciple is against him.

i dont think that control freak 'welcomed ' CH's return. i though in the STAR newpaper he said it was not good for china?

if you want better badminton, you should hope that CH dosent join the national team - or he will suddenly 'break' his leg again and recover a day later like chen yu

Did you read the news that Germany national coach apologized to LYB?
CY did not come to ABC, because his injury get worse during the AE.

do you have the evidence LYB said that?
you blame LYB because of his misstatement or he has so many talent players, like LD?

[dannyang]

i dont think that control freak 'welcomed ' CH's return. i though in the STAR newpaper he said it was not good for china?



LYB welcome CH's return, because CH is still more reliable than BCL. LYB is employed by CHN and LYB's job is to make sure CHN get MS title in OG, regardless of CH,LD,CJ or BCL.
LYB's current goal is at least 3 CHN MS players ranked in top5. then more CHN MS players can take part in OG. that's why LYB hope CH to come back to represent CHN.

[dannyang]

i dont think that control freak 'welcomed ' CH's return. i though in the STAR newpaper he said it was not good for china?



LYB welcome CH's return, because CH is still more reliable than BCL. LYB is employed by CHN and LYB's job is to make sure CHN get MS title in OG, regardless of CH,LD,CJ or BCL.
LYB's current goal is at least 3 CHN MS players ranked in top5. then more CHN MS players can take part in OG. that's why LYB hope CH to come back to represent CHN.

[huangkwokhau]

It seems it is contradiction what Star reported and Dannyang reported...whatever it is that CH has a right to play and it is good to have professional; badminton player..

Long timae ago..I do not like LYB as in many cases..it had ordered some players to surrender to other teammates..i forgot what year it was..but it was reported widely..I guess LYB has the right as they need to rank certain players for thomas cup or Sudirman cup...
I support all Badminton players can play professionally like tennis players....
Tough for being abadminton players...as tournaments do not have enough money to support "independent players" like CH or Chandra...
I hope TH will go for being a professional player...dont have to depend on PBSI..

Cant wait to see TH vs CH

[z3048018]

it was great to see CH again, albeit a 'slimmer' version of him. looking forward to the finals tomorrow!! GO TH; GO CH!!!!

[Cheung]

i will respect a person where respect is due - not someone that wants to break a players (lcw) leg just becauase his disciple is against him.
Did you happen to watch the 2007 All England Mixed Final? In that game, the England coach can be heard quite clearly to say to his player, "C'mon, break him". That was referring to breaking "Zheng Bo".;) China is not the only one to use such terminology.

[FU4EVA]

"C'mon, break him" I think the term is just to enhance the fighting spirit to their players and doesn't mean to the opponent.

[jamesd20]

"C'mon, break him" I think the term is just to enhance the fighting spirit to their players and doesn't mean to the opponent.

No it pretty much means to Physically break him. I ond't know the ins and outs of the supposed LYB incidents, but I imagine he meant a similar thing.

[ye333]

I think that's totally different, since this "break" is kind of figurative, unless the English coach said "break his legs". But "da3duan4ta1de tui3" can only mean physically break his legs in Chinese.


Did you happen to watch the 2007 All England Mixed Final? In that game, the England coach can be heard quite clearly to say to his player, "C'mon, break him". That was referring to breaking "Zheng Bo".;) China is not the only one to use such terminology.

[ye333]

You are from England, I believe you. But still hard to understand. Can you explain what does "physically break him" mean? I still think LYB's words are worse since "da3duan4ta1de4tui3" basically can mean only one thing.


No it pretty much means to Physically break him. I ond't know the ins and outs of the supposed LYB incidents, but I imagine he meant a similar thing.

[jamesd20]

You are from England, I believe you. But still hard to understand. Can you explain what does "physically break him" mean? I still think LYB's words are worse since "da3duan4ta1de4tui3" basically can mean only one thing.

Basically it would mean to tire someone out so he could not move as quickly and play the shots he would normally, and also to break him mentally so he feels he cannot win.

In LYB defence, although the words may mean Literally Break his legs, He probably meant in the same way tire LCW legs out so he cannot move so quick.

Taken literally the English would also mean to break, as in damage someone.

[volcom]

Li Yongbo is not stupid enough to mean actually walking up to LCw and physically smash and break his legs... seriously people get so worked up over nothing.
It is completely obvious it means to work him around until he begins to fatigue badly,

[jamesd20]

It is completely obvious it means to work him around until he begins to fatigue badly,

I agree 100% for Both LYB and the English coach

[cindie]

He has shown no respects to spectators (who bought tickets to watch all-china players final in few tournaments) and the great badminton itself. Shame to U, LYB.

I find this statement absurd and funny. Showing no respects to spectators just because it's an all-china players final?? Don't you think it's an all-china players final because they deserve that? I believe China is so powerful today because they have put in all the efforts and hardworks..I think we should learn from them (if we don't want anymore all-china players final in future), rather than despise them.

Correct me if I have misunderstood your statement.

[jgao_net]

No man, LYB only thinks for himself. He is afraid of the rumours that the prize money is not good for China players with CH playing as a free-agent now. He keep saying it isnt a good thing for the national team is all because of his own dignity and reputation. Who cares as long as CH is enjoying although the winning(s) all goes to him alone, sounds bad :rolleyes:
that's where you're wrong. LYB doesnt think of himself first, he always thinks of his TEAM first. LYB doesnt have any personal gains and because of this, i dont see how this can damage his reputation/dignity. it *seems* he has a 'i dont care what you think of me* kind of attitude. whether or not this is a bad thing, it can be debated (and has been).

i feel that there are many ignorant LYB bashers on this site because he is always a team first kind of guy. always doing whatever he can so his players can win. although his methods are always questioned by critics, his results are solid tournament after tournament. if he was coaching your countries national team, there would be a lot more happy fans on this site.

thats my 0.02

[DinkAlot]

Good for Chen Hong for being an individual in communist China! *applauds*

My sentiments egg-zachary!

LYB and "China", cry me a river. LYB is just saying it's "bad" for China because he's afraid CH will beat "his" team.

What a joke...

Lipserver....

Pot calling the kettle black...

...and all that jazz.

LYB should just keep his mouth shut. :rolleyes:

[DinkAlot]

pls respect LYB!!!

Respect? Respect is earned. Based on his actions and what he's said, negative Ghost Rider.

[ye333]

Well, being a native speaker of mandarin for >30 years, I find the figurative use of "da3duan4ta1de tui3" very unnatural. Yes you can try to interpret it as "try to make LCW run as much as possible", but I just find it unnatural, I have never heard anyone using it in the above sense. The only way "da3duan4" being used figuratively I can think of is "da3duan4" some process, say somebody's talking. So either I do not have enough experience with Mandarin or LYB has just added a new usage to "da3duan4".

As to "break" in English, I think there are many examples of it being used figuratively in sports talking.

I hope I have made myself clear. "Da3duan4" can be interpreted in your way, but to me it just sounds very unnatural. For example, if I say, "wang3si3li3da3", that sounds worse than "da3duan4", but unless my protege is really beating some ppl up, it is natural to understand it in a figurative way.



Basically it would mean to tire someone out so he could not move as quickly and play the shots he would normally, and also to break him mentally so he feels he cannot win.

In LYB defence, although the words may mean Literally Break his legs, He probably meant in the same way tire LCW legs out so he cannot move so quick.

Taken literally the English would also mean to break, as in damage someone.

[2cents]

Please do some reality check. Did LYB really said "break LCW's Legs"?

I read several news and reports that LYB denied he said that at any time. LYB even got surprised, and asked back, it he had said that, he would be a gangster instead of a national head coach. LYB claimed that the only thing he said was "He(LCW) learnt nothing but garbage (from Li Mao)"

I have said before, LYB has nothing against LCW, the guy he hates is Li Mao. LYB even said that LCW was very talented, but happened to have a bad coach.

So I truly believe that LYB tried all his best to beat LCW for sure, but not for LD, BCL, CJ, CY, CH, not for China team or China country, but for himself. He hates Li Mao so much that he just try so hard to destroy Li Mao's career. That's it. There is nothing between LCW and LYB.

[Wong8Egg]

ABC is only a pre-show. It would be a real slap if he beats someone from Team China on the next encounter. Cough Cough LD.

[cooler]

i think beating bcl or chen jin is enough to prove the point. I alway see CH is better than BCL. That is why CH is so hurt by the china team.

[Shifty]

I find this statement absurd and funny. Showing no respects to spectators just because it's an all-china players final?? Don't you think it's an all-china players final because they deserve that? I believe China is so powerful today because they have put in all the efforts and hardworks..I think we should learn from them (if we don't want anymore all-china players final in future), rather than despise them.

Correct me if I have misunderstood your statement.

i totaly agree. seems like there's helluva lot of chinese bashing and you wonder why? why would it honestly be disrespectful to spectators who want a good match, regardless of nationality? wasn't the final of the 06 World Champ MS not exciting, not a three set, hard fought battle? i think rather than hate China, think about every sweatdrop the chinese shed to reach that stage, don't forget Li Yongbo also did a helluva lot of work to become the great doubles player he was.

[Shifty]

BCL and CJ won't see CH as much of a threat, cause CH is aging fast and especially CJ, will be able to thrash him once he's matured. i doubt CH will really threaten team China.

[cooler]

BCL and CJ won't see CH as much of a threat, cause CH is aging fast and especially CJ, will be able to thrash him once he's matured. i doubt CH will really threaten team China.
CH had beaten bcl in china open twice in a row. BCL record against CH is very poor.

[OneToughBirdie]

CH had beaten bcl in china open twice in a row. BCL record against CH is very poor.
Cooler, are you criticizing BCL??? Sickgal is going after you now...hahaha!:p

[ants]

Personally LYB feared that Chen Hong win something independently. He just want all the Chinese players who wins will be associated with him. However LYB still have many players to use and dispose.. why need to worry. I'm sure Chen Hong and some other players have secrets to reveal which they didnt.

[cooler]

Cooler, are you criticizing BCL??? Sickgal is going after you now...hahaha!:pyes i am, for a long while before too :p

Nah, she seem to be hibernating now.

[Shifty]

well, CH can't last for ever against BCL, sooner all later CH's age will catch up to him, if not BCL, the CJ for sure. what i'm trying to say is CH won't threaten China.

[DinkAlot]

Nah, she seem to be hibernating now.

What? There's another fellow urisade on this Forum? :eek: She must be a true bear, bear (hibernating) while I'm just an NPG. :p

Back to LYB, yes, like Ants said, LYB is definitely concerned CH can potentially take glory away from him and "his" team. It's not his team, it's China's team.

[taufik-ist]

if LYb doesn't worry, why can't he let CH play in Indonesia Super league

[liying_0505]

Support Chen Hong~~~
Now he's out of the national team, i like him more than before ....... wahahahahahahahhahahaha

[cooler]

well, CH can't last for ever against BCL, sooner all later CH's age will catch up to him, if not BCL, the CJ for sure. what i'm trying to say is CH won't threaten China.
taufik eat bcl for breakfast.

[Shifty]

taufik eat bcl for breakfast.

BCL has bet Taufik on many occasions, the one i can think of straight away is the 2004 China Open, he smoked Taufik thank you. there are others but can't remember off the top of my head.

[cooler]

BCL has bet Taufik on many occasions, the one i can think of straight away is the 2004 China Open, he smoked Taufik thank you. there are others but can't remember off the top of my head.
u dont remember becos there weren't many lol

asian games 2006

Taufik Hidayat beat Bao Chunlai in 40mins

[Shifty]

my point is, BCL is not as useless against taufik as it seems. if my memory is correct, he also bet him in 2004 Thomas Cup

[alfa-2]

be a badminton fan, dont be a fan of players. Being the latter will sometimes cloud your mind and say wrong things even without you yourself knowing it.......

[bic33]

okay.. let's just say this, TH has defeated BCL numerous times recently... 2004.. umm.. for me, i doesn't seem to be 'recent'

[ye333]

BCL has beaten TH 3 times, but starting from 2006, it seems TH really knows how to beat BCL.


okay.. let's just say this, TH has defeated BCL numerous times recently... 2004.. umm.. for me, i doesn't seem to be 'recent'

[laonong]

Well, being a native speaker of mandarin for >30 years, I find the figurative use of "da3duan4ta1de tui3" very unnatural. Yes you can try to interpret it as "try to make LCW run as much as possible", but I just find it unnatural, I have never heard anyone using it in the above sense. The only way "da3duan4" being used figuratively I can think of is "da3duan4" some process, say somebody's talking. So either I do not have enough experience with Mandarin or LYB has just added a new usage to "da3duan4".

As to "break" in English, I think there are many examples of it being used figuratively in sports talking.

I hope I have made myself clear. "Da3duan4" can be interpreted in your way, but to me it just sounds very unnatural. For example, if I say, "wang3si3li3da3", that sounds worse than "da3duan4", but unless my protege is really beating some ppl up, it is natural to understand it in a figurative way.


"da3" means play here not hit or break. How can his players hit or break LCW's leg. His player could be arrested if they did that

[jamesd20]

I think this thread is about CH and LYB, not BCL Vs TH.

Anyhow, Yes CH is ageing, and unlikely to be huge threat to CHN MS in long term (also see below) I think LYB is upset for three reasons:

1.Yes LYB will want any China successes to be associated with him, but this is secondary, CH was produced by team china under LYB regime, so this is not much of an issue IMHO

2.LYB will not want CH to have too much success and fame, as it will encourage other talented players to possibly leave national team and be indepedent. This is very different from Pi/Xu/Wang Chen where they moved to represent another country, as CH still rpersents China, but as indepedent.

3. CH claims he is to retire as dropped from national team and this has been agreed, then CH announces to come back. LYB may feel CH tricked him into allowing him to retire.

However CH would be upset that although he is comfortably a top 5 player and an equal, if not better than other compatriots at the moment he has been told un equivocally he will not play in olympics. This muct hurt. And although CH will know he cannot play olympics as an indepedent (LYB will not select him) he would not have wanted to train under CHN team anymore.

From a playing perspective CH techniques and skills are far exceeding CJ/BCL/LD/CY IMHO. LD is the only player I beleive in CHN team who has an edge against him, as Physically LD's speed and agility can outweigh his technical deficiencies (of which LD has improved).

The age factor is not an issue for me. CH is a tremendous athlete, with efficient movement unlikely to take a heavy toll on his body. OMO CH could play longer than LD/BCL/CY in neccessary. CJ is much younger, but lacks a cutting edge.

[OneToughBirdie]

I think this thread is about CH and LYB, not BCL Vs TH.

Anyhow, Yes CH is ageing, and unlikely to be huge threat to CHN MS in long term (also see below) I think LYB is upset for three reasons:

1.Yes LYB will want any China successes to be associated with him, but this is secondary, CH was produced by team china under LYB regime, so this is not much of an issue IMHO

2.LYB will not want CH to have too much success and fame, as it will encourage other talented players to possibly leave national team and be indepedent. This is very different from Pi/Xu/Wang Chen where they moved to represent another country, as CH still rpersents China, but as indepedent.

3. CH claims he is to retire as dropped from national team and this has been agreed, then CH announces to come back. LYB may feel CH tricked him into allowing him to retire.

However CH would be upset that although he is comfortably a top 5 player and an equal, if not better than other compatriots at the moment he has been told un equivocally he will not play in olympics. This muct hurt. And although CH will know he cannot play olympics as an indepedent (LYB will not select him) he would not have wanted to train under CHN team anymore.

From a playing perspective CH techniques and skills are far exceeding CJ/BCL/LD/CY IMHO. LD is the only player I beleive in CHN team who has an edge against him, as Physically LD's speed and agility can outweigh his technical deficiencies (of which LD has improved).

The age factor is not an issue for me. CH is a tremendous athlete, with efficient movement unlikely to take a heavy toll on his body. OMO CH could play longer than LD/BCL/CY in neccessary. CJ is much younger, but lacks a cutting edge.

Well said...One thing also is that if CH plays as as independent, representing CHN in OLY or WC, he may not obey LYB order to lose at SF, just so as LYB feels the other player may have a better chances of winning the final and to get rested. CH obligation is to his sponsor and himself.

[ye333]

Yes you can try to interpret it that way, all I was saying is, such a usage of "da3duan4" does not sound natural to me at all.

Of course no one will really break LCW's legs, but what we are arguing here is whether it is an strategy instruction, or its main purpose is to disturb LCW. I believe it is the latter.


"da3" means play here not hit or break. How can his players hit or break LCW's leg. His player could be arrested if they did that

[Shifty]

Yes you can try to interpret it that way, all I was saying is, such a usage of "da3duan4" does not sound natural to me at all.

Of course no one will really break LCW's legs, but what we are arguing here is whether it is an strategy instruction, or its main purpose is to disturb LCW. I believe it is the latter.

so why are all the malaysians getting so upset over it?

how old is CH right now? i think he will really start to drop off soon, because he simply can't keep the same stamina as the younger people, it's a fact of life.

[volcom]

so why are all the malaysians getting so upset over it?

how old is CH right now? i think he will really start to drop off soon, because he simply can't keep the same stamina as the younger people, it's a fact of life.

Gade is still going strong albeit not like he used to and hes into his 30's.

[Shifty]

Gade is still going strong albeit not like he used to and hes into his 30's.

exactly, and he will keep getting worse. Europeans can hold thier fitness better than Asians, so what i'm saying is, even if CH can last past BCL or LD, CJ will have matured by then and Lu Qicheng(who bet Hafiz in ABC) will be coming through. i doubt CH will really do much.

[jimbo]

I find this statement absurd and funny. Showing no respects to spectators just because it's an all-china players final?? Don't you think it's an all-china players final because they deserve that? I believe China is so powerful today because they have put in all the efforts and hardworks..I think we should learn from them (if we don't want anymore all-china players final in future), rather than despise them.

Correct me if I have misunderstood your statement.

Of coz, U were wrong. What I meant is that LYB unofficially instructed his players to W.O on several men's singles final when PRC vs PRC are involved. I dont need to bring up the case where Chen YU W.O in German Open 2007 (pls correct if my memory serves wrong) against the mighty LD in the final by giving a lame excuse of leg's injuries. The following week, yes, within a week, he fought all the way to the ALL ENGLAND final against the mighty LD again. Of coz, he was no match to LD but obviously the "injuries" did not affect his games at all. I heard that German officials were planning to sue LYB for being unsportmanship and disrespect to the badminton game.

I have no prob with the PRC vs PRC finals coz I just dun watch those games except men singles. And I never doubt their hardwork and determination during the training sessions. It's not a rocket science to understand why PRC is a powerhouse in Badminton where they have virtually 1.3B ppl to choose from.

[Shifty]

Of coz, U were wrong. What I meant is that LYB unofficially instructed his players to W.O on several men's singles final when PRC vs PRC are involved. I dont need to bring up the case where Chen YU W.O in German Open 2007 (pls correct if my memory serves wrong) against the mighty LD in the final by giving a lame excuse of leg's injuries. The following week, yes, within a week, he fought all the way to the ALL ENGLAND final against the mighty LD again. Of coz, he was no match to LD but obviously the "injuries" did not affect his games at all. I heard that German officials were planning to sue LYB for being unsportmanship and disrespect to the badminton game.

I have no prob with the PRC vs PRC finals coz I just dun watch those games except men singles. And I never doubt their hardwork and determination during the training sessions. It's not a rocket science to understand why PRC is a powerhouse in Badminton where they have virtually 1.3B ppl to choose from.

i find what you say about the 1.3B ppl thing total b*** s***. why's New Zealand world class in rowing? why did we take 4 golds in the world champs in rowing, when we've got 4 MILLION people, against Russia, who's got a population that's hundreds times larger than us, but we beat them with Georgina and Caroline Evers-Swindell. if not, what about the America's Cup, when we face off against a country with 220 Million and still defeat the USA. what about rugby? a 4 million ppl nation dominating the world? defeating england, Aus and SA? it's not a matter of population, if so, it would mean China dominating track events but it's America who does.

it's not a matter of how many people there are, it's a matter of how hard you try, and frankly, the Chinese are the ones who try hardest, and maybe a little respect for thier efforts won't go astray, rather than saying it's a population thing, when it's not, it's about who tries the hardest.

[cindie]

i find what you say about the 1.3B ppl thing total b*** s***. why's New Zealand world class in rowing? why did we take 4 golds in the world champs in rowing, when we've got 4 MILLION people, against Russia, who's got a population that's hundreds times larger than us, but we beat them with Georgina and Caroline Evers-Swindell. if not, what about the America's Cup, when we face off against a country with 220 Million and still defeat the USA. what about rugby? a 4 million ppl nation dominating the world? defeating england, Aus and SA? it's not a matter of population, if so, it would mean China dominating track events but it's America who does.

it's not a matter of how many people there are, it's a matter of how hard you try, and frankly, the Chinese are the ones who try hardest, and maybe a little respect for thier efforts won't go astray, rather than saying it's a population thing, when it's not, it's about who tries the hardest.

Shifty, I really like you.. :D :p ;)

[Shifty]

Shifty, I really like you.. :D :p ;)

i just think people should really think about the efforts of Chinese players before critisizing them. after all, i haven't heard anyone stirring up fuss about Taufik walking out of the Hong Kong Open, which can be considered unsportsman by anyone.

[cindie]

Of coz, U were wrong. What I meant is that LYB unofficially instructed his players to W.O on several men's singles final when PRC vs PRC are involved.

I've no comment here as I don't know LYB personally and obviously I don't hear him instructing them, so I don't want to simply say he "unofficially" instructed his players to W.O. :rolleyes:

[Shifty]

that is a down side for badminton as a game, as i'd like to watch a good game, but then again, LYB does have that choice, although he will need to face the consequences. but i guess it's part of tactics, and everyone uses dirty tactics at a stage of thier lives, we all should admit to that :p:rolleyes::o

[phaarix]

i find what you say about the 1.3B ppl thing total b*** s***. why's New Zealand world class in rowing? why did we take 4 golds in the world champs in rowing, when we've got 4 MILLION people, against Russia, who's got a population that's hundreds times larger than us, but we beat them with Georgina and Caroline Evers-Swindell. if not, what about the America's Cup, when we face off against a country with 220 Million and still defeat the USA. what about rugby? a 4 million ppl nation dominating the world? defeating england, Aus and SA? it's not a matter of population, if so, it would mean China dominating track events but it's America who does.

it's not a matter of how many people there are, it's a matter of how hard you try, and frankly, the Chinese are the ones who try hardest, and maybe a little respect for thier efforts won't go astray, rather than saying it's a population thing, when it's not, it's about who tries the hardest.

The population can be a factor, but you're right it's how you use it that really counts. If we're ever to see China's dominance in the sport recede a little then it will be the other countries that will have to step up. It's not like China's going to get worse for eveyone else. With the right amount of focus and dedication other countries can get up there and challenge China. It'll be hard work but it can be done.

[black_knight006]

This approves again that coaching is not that important. Even the training is not that important either.

HAHAHAHA...Maybe at that level it doesn't matter but it sure as hell does to the rest of us!:p

[jimbo]

I've no comment here as I don't know LYB personally and obviously I don't hear him instructing them, so I don't want to simply say he "unofficially" instructed his players to W.O.

It's OK if u hv no further comment coz most of the replies to my post were refocused to population instead of unsportmanship of LYB. It's ok to shift the attention of the main point here.

Over the history of badminton (for the last 10-15yrs), China has been the powerhouse of Badminton, and with all respects, they deserved it well. I have no problem to see great players like Yang Yang, Zhao Jian Hua, and the recent mighty LD. Without a doubt, they should be in Hall of Fame, if there exists one. During LYB era, I still could enjoyed watching Zhao vs YY in all PRCs final. Gosh, fantastic game I must say.

My concern is very simple: pls respect the spectators (mind U, they paid for the tickets) and the sport, and do not pull the plug if PRC vs PRC (particularly in men singles). I'd be very dissapointed if I hold the seasoned ticket and not able to watch LD vs Chen Yu or BCL or CH.

[Shifty]

i guess the other countries have just got to try harder to stop an all china final :) but in all honesty, it is a problem, but one which can't really be fixed cos it's the player's right to withdraw, but if LYB is insisting on it, it's really a fault of communism isn't it? because he would never do it if he came from a democratic country

[FU4EVA]

I totally agree with Shifty. I think other countries must train harder to beat China. And not blaming China for being so great with various lame excuses.

[Linus]

i guess the other countries have just got to try harder to stop an all china final :) but in all honesty, it is a problem, but one which can't really be fixed cos it's the player's right to withdraw, but if LYB is insisting on it, it's really a fault of communism isn't it? because he would never do it if he came from a democratic country

Perhaps this is too simplistic a view, in the world of sports today, we do see many "match-fixing" going on at world stage, where player/team purposely lost to another player/team so that they could avoid a tough opponent in the next round etc. Some may call it strategy, but to me, this is no difference to any match fixing. To some the desire to win at all cost and be number one do someimtes (and often) override moral standard and cloud sound judgement, this can happen to anyone and not only because of political or ideaology preference.

[azabaz_ipoh]

population, IMHO, is just an added bonus. i think passion for the sport is what breeds champions. just as all brazilian kids grew up playing football and eventually some became world class players. i think badminton is like that to the chinese. they have passion for the game. and the ability to be really good at it. being a big country is just a bonus really. malaysian youths love badminton too. but here we have too few coaching on the junior level. kids sometimes grew up with the wrong skills. in china they start real young. making sure their foundation is strong. and strong foundation makes them good players. and all these good players have the urge to be better because they have so much competition and they need to be the best to be a top player in china first before they even get to be a world contender. so china deserved it. all the hard work. i hope malaysia will see this and take the good. like making sure our youths really have the opportunity to have better foundation like what they are doing now with sports school. KKK and TBH is a result of this. plus KKK and TBH have good coaches when they were younger so their foundation was already good then. and may the other countries make badminton more exciting by posing a bigger threat to china's dominance. chen hong should be given the chance to play for himself since the china team could not give him the opportunity to play the tournaments that he wants to. why pull down a good player just to cover your chosen players? if he wins, he wins it for china. the pride is still there.

[jimbo]

i guess the other countries have just got to try harder to stop an all china final :) but in all honesty, it is a problem, but one which can't really be fixed cos it's the player's right to withdraw, but if LYB is insisting on it, it's really a fault of communism isn't it? because he would never do it if he came from a democratic country

Now you are making good sense of remarks as compared to the previous reply. It doesnt matter if other countries (be it Msia, Indo or Denmark) pushing to the edge trying to beat the PRCs, all players must respect the game and play their heart out in the finals.

Yes, if LYB is a couch in a democratic country, I'm sure this thing wont happen. Again, there's no reason to argue if he did or did not "unofficially" pull his player off from final and concede a W.O. We are humans, therefore, we have brain to analyse and think. Pls dun insult human beings :rolleyes:

[jimbo]

I totally agree with Shifty. I think other countries must train harder to beat China. And not blaming China for being so great with various lame excuses.

If U read my previous posts, NEVER did I blame the might Great Wall for their dominance in the world of badminton. In fact, I'd glad that I was able to watch few great players such as Zhao, YangYang, mighty LD, etc... They are simply genius, to put it this way :=)

But no thanks to conceding W.O or match fixing. That's disgraceful to the great game of Badminton and disrespectful to ardent fans.

[angelatby]

I totally agree with Shifty. I think other countries must train harder to beat China. And not blaming China for being so great with various lame excuses.

If you want to do analysis, then do it from Jimbo's 1st POST, sorry i just couldnt stand, that you totally misunderstanding Jimno's meaning. What Jimbo's trying to say is about the spectators right in seeing the real competition, from audience point of view. Jimbo didnt say that China cannot win or giving excuses that they win is because they dont deserve. Dont make this thread as if who is siding who, alright. And stick back to the topic !

[angelatby]

Story began like this : LYB is the one who started this issue, as he told media about his dissatisfaction about Chen Hong who resume playing badminton after an official retirement. Get this clear we shall go further.

In LYB point of view : Chen Hong should stay put on, since he still has the ability to contribute for China. He quoted, by self-sponsored and all winning goes to CH alone is NOT a good news to China.

Assumption made :

(a) Outsiders will think the offer (prize money) from China to their players NOT sufficient, therefore CH play as a free-agent is to pocket in all the winnings.
(b) No honesty between player and coach, where players will ingest this kind of postiche attitude in the future.
(c) Chen Hong did not give enough explicandum regarding his leaving, therefore LYB making a big fuss.

LYB's misapprehension :

(a) No black and white stated that CH shall not play out of national team after retirement.
(b) Giving a better offer (optional), mutual understanding of the real reason behind CH's leaving (it is obvious LYB couldnt understand why CH still playing but not for own team isnt)

The most important i feel is although Chen Hong no longer playing for own team, but his Winning still mean he wins for CHINA. Dissatisfaction is due to no proper agreement. End.

[jimbo]

If you want to do analysis, then do it from Jimbo's 1st POST, sorry i just couldnt stand, that you totally misunderstanding Jimno's meaning. What Jimbo's trying to say is about the spectators right in seeing the real competition, from audience point of view. Jimbo didnt say that China cannot win or giving excuses that they win is because they dont deserve. Dont make this thread as if who is siding who, alright. And stick back to the topic !

Thanks Angela. Human beings are strange coz they read/listen to what they love/like, and reject the rest. In this case, I was mistakenly quoted by some people for claiming that PRC's dominance had caused unfairness to the game and the PRC's population is the cause of their dominance. Gosh... these people need to polish up their analytical thinking or reading skills.

yes, back to topic. I wonder, after Chen Hong, will there be another PRC player playing under Victor banner instead of PRC? I'm very concerned who are ChenHong's sparring partners and the quality of training without the official PRC team. IMHO, ChenHong is still a very sharp and tactically good player, esp his overhead jumping smashes. phew... very powerful...

[dannyang]

Yes, if LYB is a couch in a democratic country, I'm sure this thing wont happen. Again, there's no reason to argue if he did or did not "unofficially" pull his player off from final and concede a W.O. We are humans, therefore, we have brain to analyse and think. Pls dun insult human beings :rolleyes:

:mad: :mad:
it happend to italian soccer teams.
perhaps italy is not a democratic country in ur opion

[s1nn3r]

I guess Badminton is moving towards Tennis style of profesionalism. Is just matter of time before this happen as the world Globalis... TOday Chen Hong might look like a villian to the chinese but someday he might be look at as a revolutionist...

[jimbo]

it happend to italian soccer teams.
perhaps italy is not a democratic country in ur opion

Hmm.... it seems we are shifting from Badminton to Soccer then match-fixing. I'm not a huge soccer fan, but if I'm not mistaken, Juventus and AC Milan were either fined or regulated or deducted points (not too sure...)

It's amazing how human beings love to dig a bone within a fish. Nothing wrong with that, just that we need to focus on the issue discussed instead of shifting the focus. Anyway, good to know that u are a Seria A fan.

Anyway, we are talking about W.O in the all PRCs men single finals and as far as LYB is concerned (He is the top chief), he is responsible to answer to the specatators and the beautiful game itself.

[dannyang]

yes, back to topic. I wonder, after Chen Hong, will there be another PRC player playing under Victor banner instead of PRC? I'm very concerned who are ChenHong's sparring partners and the quality of training without the official PRC team. IMHO, ChenHong is still a very sharp and tactically good player, esp his overhead jumping smashes. phew... very powerful...

ChenHong is still training with the official PRC team (province, instead of nation).

[jimbo]

ChenHong is still training with the official PRC team (province, instead of nation).

Thanks for the info. If he qualifies for the 2008 Olympics, is he eligible to play? If yes, will he represent China? If yes, does it mean one of the three slots for PRC is taken up by ChenHong?

I really hope he can make it to the Olympics coz he is still a great competitor. But I wanna Taufik to win... hehe (just kidding)

[s1nn3r]

every1 almost forget about Olympic.. but I guess PRC can choose their representative... then CH is out.. but at least he makes more $$$$.

[dannyang]

Anyway, we are talking about W.O in the all PRCs men single finals and as far as LYB is concerned (He is the top chief), he is responsible to answer to the specatators and the beautiful game itself.

CY withdrew in GO due to injury. His performance in AE make injury more seriously.
this is the reason for his withdrawl from ABC.

LYB is concerned with his players' health. he is a xxx (you can imagine any word here) if he forced injured CY to continue to play in final.

[dannyang]

Thanks for the info. If he qualifies for the 2008 Olympics, is he eligible to play? If yes, will he represent China? If yes, does it mean one of the three slots for PRC is taken up by ChenHong?

I really hope he can make it to the Olympics coz he is still a great competitor. But I wanna Taufik to win... hehe (just kidding)

According to LYB, CH can make it to the Olymics if CH get enough qualifying points. (but it's up to LYB, isn't it). CH claimed many times that he will represent China for at least 3 years.

[jimbo]

According to LYB, CH can make it to the Olymics if CH get enough qualifying points. (but it's up to LYB, isn't it). CH claimed many times that he will represent China for at least 3 years.

Coolz. Yes, I doubt LYB will allow CH to play in Olympics coz one of the three slots will be taken up by CH. I noticed that he has a coach (but not wearing Victor shirt), and I wonder who he is. Anyway, good to know that CH will play for another 3 yrs.

[Joyous]

From a player's point of view, I feel for CH. He is still a player to reckon with. But such is the state in the field of sports in China - survival of the fittest. There are simply too few places for too many talents. That's why the athletes in China called it a day much earlier than others.
On the other hand, I emphatise with the China Association & coaches. Whowever you choose to represent the country, there will always be some players who have to be sacrificed along the way. In short it's a thankless job. But I do think at high competition level, they have to put the nation's interest first. Look at the women's dept., they still retain Zhang Ning for the simple reason that the younger players are not able to beat her convincingly match after match. Just my views.

[Joyous]

From a player's point of view, I feel for CH. He is still a player to reckon with. But such is the state in the field of sports in China - survival of the fittest. There are simply too few places for too many talents. That's why the athletes in China called it a day much earlier than others.
On the other hand, I emphatise with the China Association & coaches. Whowever you choose to represent the country, there will always be some players who have to be sacrificed along the way. In short it's a thankless job. But I do think at high competition level, they have to put the nation's interest first. Look at the women's dept., they still retain Zhang Ning for the simple reason that the younger players are not able to beat her convincingly match after match. Just my views.

[Shifty]

i think CH can play for whoever he wants to, just that he won't last long.

[Shiryu]

Just because someone is in their 30's, doesn't mean we can just discard them as like some old useless rag. With age come maturity, experience, and the ability to deal with pressure.

Don't forget with the 21 point system, the match doesn't last as long. It is suppose to give the more seasoned players an edge.

[LazyBuddy]

No man, LYB only thinks for himself. He is afraid of the rumours that the prize money is not good for China players with CH playing as a free-agent now. He keep saying it isnt a good thing for the national team is all because of his own dignity and reputation. Who cares as long as CH is enjoying although the winning(s) all goes to him alone, sounds bad :rolleyes:

I don't think it's a simple matter of CHN might get a few less medals, with CH now competing on his own.

I think what LYB feel upset is more like "CH" to set an example for the younger generation. If CH continues his success, and gain a lot of $$$ for his own, what you think the existing or upcoming national team members will think? And remember, they can all use injuries as an excuse to retire, and leave some "juice" in themselves, and come back to make their $$$.

I know LYB is not a fan favorite, but we need to understand his situation. He and his staffs (of course, with funding from the nation) put huge investment on the players. Now, only to watch the players walk out of the door, and start their own business (play as an individual). If you are a boss, and you spend so much time and $$$ to train your workers, only to see them walk away upon graduation, and start their own business to compete with you. How you feel? :o

[LazyBuddy]

"C'mon, break him" I think the term is just to enhance the fighting spirit to their players and doesn't mean to the opponent.

Once LYB said "break", means he's an a$$... Once other ppl said it, fans like you find all the "reasonable excuses"...

Now, I really feel for LYB. :(

[LazyBuddy]

Well, being a native speaker of mandarin for >30 years, I find the figurative use of "da3duan4ta1de tui3" very unnatural. Yes you can try to interpret it as "try to make LCW run as much as possible", but I just find it unnatural, I have never heard anyone using it in the above sense. The only way "da3duan4" being used figuratively I can think of is "da3duan4" some process, say somebody's talking. So either I do not have enough experience with Mandarin or LYB has just added a new usage to "da3duan4".

As to "break" in English, I think there are many examples of it being used figuratively in sports talking.

I hope I have made myself clear. "Da3duan4" can be interpreted in your way, but to me it just sounds very unnatural. For example, if I say, "wang3si3li3da3", that sounds worse than "da3duan4", but unless my protege is really beating some ppl up, it is natural to understand it in a figurative way.

Please, we are not doing a lecture here, and we are not lawyers. How people speak, in what tones, only themselves or the close ones will know. Judge a person's statement because you "get used to " or "never heard about it" is nowhere near to be accurate.

Many ppl jokes around their friends, with the word like "I kick you butt", "burn ur house down" or "chop your xxx off". Do you think they are really doing a bloody battle, and we should call cops? Of course not. :o

[Shiryu]

Classic case of double standard.

But every drama needs a villain.

It's true that CH's playing for himself now maybe bad for the Chinese team and sets a bad example for their younger players. But just because the country trained the player, does it mean the player has to play for the country for the rest of his playing life? Is there a contract?

It's a clash between "all for one; one for all" and "everyone for themselves" mentality. and if I may stretch even further, "communism" vs "captialism" ideals. Those of us that lives in the "free" world sees nothing wrong with CH's move. But for those grew up under the iron fist, it is nothing but betrayal.



Once LYB said "break", means he's an a$$... Once other ppl said it, fans like you find all the "reasonable excuses"...

Now, I really feel for LYB. :(

[Eurasian =--(O)]

I agree with s1nn3r. More professional sports like tennis, basketball, hockey, have players who train on thier own at thier own clubs. I think thats why olympics and thomas cups are so big. The players who train on their own are chosen and put together to form the best team possible to represent thier countries at the above events.

[jamesd20]

I think what LYB feel upset is more like "CH" to set an example for the younger generation. If CH continues his success, and gain a lot of $$$ for his own, what you think the existing or upcoming national team members will think? And remember, they can all use injuries as an excuse to retire, and leave some "juice" in themselves, and come back to make their $$$.


Yep. That was what I tried to say in Post #65 point 2, but you put it better than me:)

[ye333]

Man you are doing exactly what you are blaming me for. You are trying to "judge" my "judgement" of LYB using your own experience. Ppl has to judge ppl using his/her own experience, otherwise no judgment can be ever made, and there is no point to have a forum. And remember I did say there is a possibility that LYB has just added a new usage of "da3duan4".

As to the LYB case, LCW himself complained. Are you saying it's LCW's fault because he is not good enough at Mandarin or something? And furthermroe what is LYB's response? He said "I didn't say it!". He didn't use "It means to run him around" or any similar excuses. So it's pretty clear that LYB himself does not think "da3duan4tui3" is a natural instruction to his proteges.

Also the LYB case is very different from your examples. It's more like you say to your friend "I will burn your house down" in a tone that your friend got disturbed and scared.


Please, we are not doing a lecture here, and we are not lawyers. How people speak, in what tones, only themselves or the close ones will know. Judge a person's statement because you "get used to " or "never heard about it" is nowhere near to be accurate.

Many ppl jokes around their friends, with the word like "I kick you butt", "burn ur house down" or "chop your xxx off". Do you think they are really doing a bloody battle, and we should call cops? Of course not. :o

[cooler]

Yep. That was what I tried to say in Post #65 point 2, but you put it better than me:)Nod, your point #2 is the key point that LYB is afraid of.

[jamesd20]

An another thing, I just thought of along the lines of the other players.

If LYB had 4 other MS players who could Beat CH, and other younger players looking capable would he be concerned? not really. The fact that he doesn't have many players coming through must be a concern for LYB:

-With no Disrespect to CJ he is not the same level that CH, LD, BCL are and were when they broke through. Granted he is still young, but not that young.

-CY was always the nearly man, until the others retire and he is coming up (IMHO he hasn't improved, the new boys are just not as good)

-Gong Weijie who came up with CJ has moved to doubles (pretty unsuccessfully to date)

-I can't see any others likely to come through at the moment. Normally we would look at the 17-19 age bracket (at that age CH/LD/BCL were in Finals)

[Shifty]

Lu Qicheng? but everything comes down to whether CH can last, because if he doesn't, it doesn't matter who suppresses him, cos LD can do it until CH retires truely. if you think about, CH has usually lost to LD, and will keep doing it as he degrades faster than LD as his age gets bigger.

[LazyBuddy]

Man you are doing exactly what you are blaming me for. You are trying to "judge" my "judgement" of LYB using your own experience. Ppl has to judge ppl using his/her own experience, otherwise no judgment can be ever made, and there is no point to have a forum. And remember I did say there is a possibility that LYB has just added a new usage of "da3duan4".

As to the LYB case, LCW himself complained. Are you saying it's LCW's fault because he is not good enough at Mandarin or something? And furthermroe what is LYB's response? He said "I didn't say it!". He didn't use "It means to run him around" or any similar excuses. So it's pretty clear that LYB himself does not think "da3duan4tui3" is a natural instruction to his proteges.



1. It's true that none of us have any evidence. However, if I don't know something, I try to keep my mouth shut. But you are the one of the 1st several jumped out and accuse LYB. And all your analysis of "da duan" whatever, is typically "let me take a side 1st, then find my excuses".

2. LYB did deny it, because LCW said he felt LYB really want to hurt him. Of course LYB deny it, if he really just mean the "strategy", of course, with a bad tone in an very emotional situation. Let me ask you, if I accuse you somethng, but you never did it, do you stand up and defend yourself? :eek:

[LazyBuddy]

I don't want to add oil to the fire, but some how, the more topics I read regarding LYB or CHN team, the more I got pissed off.

1st, let me defend myself. If ppl here long enough, they know my favorite MD players are Sigit and Tony G, my favorite WS player are Susi and Gong ZC. Never to metion, I was once pissed off my local group, because I was the only one cheered and cried, when Demark lost the TC to CHN. So, please don't use the "narrow mind" to describe me.

Somehow, I think the main reason a lot of ppl jumping out (with a report, rather than confirmed sources) to "support" CH, is NOT because they really like him (remind me if I am wrong, when CH was #1 in 2003 or so, I heard overwhelming things about whether he's not good, too weak, too simple in game play, etc). Suddenly, CH becomes a "fan's favorite", simply because a lot of LOSERS here (yeah, I mean losers) think CH will now take several more medals away from CHN team. How sick is that and how sad is that??? :mad: Come on, you lose your hope to your local players, and only pray other teams get some "internal conflicts"??? That's really "sportsmanship".

Not to take away any credits away from CH. I know it's a hard decision for him, as he still wants to play, and gain some $$$ for his family. However, I have to say, his decision somehow is very "selfish". Please don't give me all the "freedom vs. communist" talk. Let me put this way, when CH got into the sportschool, then, city team, providance team, then national team, he was fully aware about his decision (ok, maybe not when he was 5 yrs old, but you tell me he did not know anything even when he's 20s?). The decision is, to take the sponsorship from government, and train hard. To me, it's like an contract. You gain some, you lose some. Ppl only looked at the gems CHN team have. However, do you see the investments? There are 200+ national team members, how many of them even can be in Team I? So, 90% of them, just become ordinary ppl like you or me. Do they need to re-pay the $$$ to the government, because they are not as good? No. Instead, many of them get free education, free training, and even job referrals. They got all that, because they got the potential, and the government is very well noticed that the return ratio is low, but they decide to do so.

Take a look at CH. He knows this. I don't mind if he "retire" when he was, say 16 or 18 (don't tell me he still does not know "there's no free lunch" when he's 18). Then, continue on with training, coaching and tournies with HIS OWN cost. If he can be a top gun, I show fully support to his decision. Now, what the hell is this? Ok, you fully took "free ride" with all the benefit, and become a star. Now, you suddenly jump out and say, "I have my freedom". Give me a break... CH, sorry to say, you lost my respect and support in a big way... :mad:

Don't give me the crap about "other nations / players". A lot of the western players, they train on their own, or a significant % of them own, especially when they were young and still a no name. I don't mind they say, "I have my freedom", because they were on their own to begin with. CH and rest of CHN team members are different. They stay quiet when they need the "free $$$" and obey the rules, and suddenly, they want their "freedom" now???

[LazyBuddy]

What Jimbo's trying to say is about the spectators right in seeing the real competition, from audience point of view.

Sure, audience point of view. How many of us here really think about the coach / player / team point of view?

Yes, we paid for the tickets. However, the players are not robot, the coaches need to face the media and "not perfect" rules / expectations / salary & bonus distributions... Do we at least, feel some for the "workers", before finger pointing???

Can we do less "me, me, me...", and think about a bit more of "others"? :mad:

[DinkAlot]

I don't want to add oil to the fire, but some how, the more topics I read regarding LYB or CHN team, the more I got pissed off.


Lei, did you wake up from the wrong side of bed this morning? :p

[DinkAlot]

Can we do less "me, me, me...", and think about a bit more of "others"? :mad:

But this is the instant gratification era, it's all about "Me! Me! Me! Me! Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" *voice cracks*




;)

[LazyBuddy]

Lei, did you wake up from the wrong side of bed this morning? :p

A tought day for sure. I think I took fire cracker for lunch today. ;)

[angelatby]

I don't think it's a simple matter of CHN might get a few less medals, with CH now competing on his own.

I think what LYB feel upset is more like "CH" to set an example for the younger generation. If CH continues his success, and gain a lot of $$$ for his own, what you think the existing or upcoming national team members will think? And remember, they can all use injuries as an excuse to retire, and leave some "juice" in themselves, and come back to make their $$$.

I know LYB is not a fan favorite, but we need to understand his situation. He and his staffs (of course, with funding from the nation) put huge investment on the players. Now, only to watch the players walk out of the door, and start their own business (play as an individual). If you are a boss, and you spend so much time and $$$ to train your workers, only to see them walk away upon graduation, and start their own business to compete with you. How you feel? :o

Yeah, if you read back my most recent post, i did mention about CH's action in giving a bad example to the juniors, but but BUT that is one of the reasons only. Please, LYB neednt afraid about what competition that CH will snatch all the medals away. I suppose you are only looking from ONE perspective but NOT the whole scenario. LOL, LYB has many players who can win over CH, you name it, they did before. By thinking that CH playing outside China Team is a beginning point of China's team rivalry, how much sense does it makes? They are all professionals and are mature to know that TOP PLAYERS will probably becoming COACH (if they want it), other than CH's case where he becoming a free-agent to still playing badminton (not for own team). If CH becoming a coach for other countries, he too has become a competitor to LYB. So, how do you see this? LOL !

[angelatby]

Sure, audience point of view. How many of us here really think about the coach / player / team point of view?

Yes, we paid for the tickets. However, the players are not robot, the coaches need to face the media and "not perfect" rules / expectations / salary & bonus distributions... Do we at least, feel some for the "workers", before finger pointing???

Can we do less "me, me, me...", and think about a bit more of "others"? :mad:

Again, i only re-interpreted back about Jimbo's comment. You gotta read his implied conclusion from the beginning as it is all linked from one to another. Thanks !

[OneToughBirdie]

All this talk of CH un-retiring and playing competitively again bodes well for badminton and fans in us to continue to see world class badminton...as for him being non-patriotic and continues to compete, well let's face it there is no room in CHN squad for CH, as great a player as he is, he is not getting any younger...since CH wants to play and earn some dough before he gets to geezer age like me, who can blame him...hey, CHN needs some competition, with CHN playing independently, he is under no obligation to "lose" any game just some coaches told him to pass over...am I bashing CHN, heck! no!...I am praising CHN prowess and domination, giving LYB full respect for fielding such a world dominant squad which the rest of the world, probably with the exception of Mr. TH, cannot counter.

[angelatby]

Thanks Angela. Human beings are strange coz they read/listen to what they love/like, and reject the rest. In this case, I was mistakenly quoted by some people for claiming that PRC's dominance had caused unfairness to the game and the PRC's population is the cause of their dominance. Gosh... these people need to polish up their analytical thinking or reading skills.

yes, back to topic. I wonder, after Chen Hong, will there be another PRC player playing under Victor banner instead of PRC? I'm very concerned who are ChenHong's sparring partners and the quality of training without the official PRC team. IMHO, ChenHong is still a very sharp and tactically good player, esp his overhead jumping smashes. phew... very powerful...


Well, this shouldnt be a problem. CH still training under PRC team as mentioned. There are many more other players that CH get the chance to spar with now compared than restricted players in the past where CH couldnt get much freedom to choose. However, more self-reliance is needed. Basically, i doubt that CH will/can play for Olympics. Unless he consistently take part in coming tournaments, however, it is up to LYB to decide. I feel Olympics or no Olympics is not that crucial to CH. Im just curious to know the real reason of his leaving and coming back again, LOL. Whether he will continue to shine or not is another story. Extemporization especially?? I hope so. :)

[jimbo]

Sure, audience point of view. How many of us here really think about the coach / player / team point of view?

Yes, we paid for the tickets. However, the players are not robot, the coaches need to face the media and "not perfect" rules / expectations / salary & bonus distributions... Do we at least, feel some for the "workers", before finger pointing???

Can we do less "me, me, me...", and think about a bit more of "others"?


Let me quote from the commentator during the All England Men Singles Final between LD and CY. He/commentator said something like this,"He/CY shown no signs of injuries that affected him throughout this AE tournament. In fact, he fought all the way to final after pulling out of German Open final last week (vs LD)."

Again, you dont need to be Albert Einstein to understand what he/commentator meant, and certainly he cant use the words "cheat" or "disguised" or "unsportmanship" of LYB.

Certainly we do understand players are bound for injuries esp in badminton, and I have no doubt that it takes time to recover. But within few days? C'on, we aint dumbs :rolleyes:

I also understand that German Badminton Association raised their concerns and frustrations after seeing CY played extremely well in early rounds of AE after citing injuries in German Open final just few days ago.

[jimbo]

Well, this shouldnt be a problem. CH still training under PRC team as mentioned. There are many more other players that CH get the chance to spar with now compared than restricted players in the past where CH couldnt get much freedom to choose. However, more self-reliance is needed. Basically, i doubt that CH will/can play for Olympics. Unless he consistently take part in coming tournaments, however, it is up to LYB to decide. I feel Olympics or no Olympics is not that crucial to CH. Im just curious to know the real reason of his leaving and coming back again, LOL. Whether he will continue to shine or not is another story. Extemporization especially?? I hope so. :)

It's good to know that CH is still training under the province instead of national team. I am very concerned for the quality of his sparring partners (no disrespect to other non-national PRC players) because it's very difficult to stay on top of the game both physically and mentally. No doubt CH is still a world beater, but he aint young. If I'm not mistaken, his coach is Xiong Guo Bao (Ex-national player).

I think it's every player's dream to play n win Olyimpics medals, and it's no different for CH. I hope he will play in 2008 Olympics but I doubt he will win coz the mighty LD and Taufik will be too strong for CH.

[markhamplayer]

I think it is good for CH but bad for LYB personally. It doesn't affect Team China a bit.
If CH succeeds , i.e. to capture a few golds in upcoming tournments, LYB's face will be as "black" as charcoal. He is afraid that everybody will fellow suite & LYB will become a general without soldiers. That's why LYB said it is bad for Team China & he is not happy with it. I don't think CH would get blessings from LYB at all. Unfortunately, there is nothing LYB can do to stop CH from success. Freedom in China costs & CH is paying for it now.
Good luck CH & long live freedom!

[dannyang]

1. It's true that none of us have any evidence. However, if I don't know something, I try to keep my mouth shut. But you are the one of the 1st several jumped out and accuse LYB. And all your analysis of "da duan" whatever, is typically "let me take a side 1st, then find my excuses".

2. LYB did deny it, because LCW said he felt LYB really want to hurt him. Of course LYB deny it, if he really just mean the "strategy", of course, with a bad tone in an very emotional situation. Let me ask you, if I accuse you somethng, but you never did it, do you stand up and defend yourself? :eek:

totally agree.
don't accuse someone before you have the evidence.

[OneToughBirdie]

[quote=jimbo]
I hope he will play in 2008 Olympics but I doubt he will win coz the mighty LD and Taufik will be too strong for CH.
The top best players can beat each other on any given night, a slight off form, pressure/nervous, lack of a good night sleep, etc. can mean a loss. CH has the privilege of training with LD, knows his game well, and can beat LD on a one game showdown, being independent can plays his game all out. I would not envy LD pressure (talking about pressure) of WC, rank #1 for how long now??, the best player in the world, and playing in Beiging with the entire masses expectation on him. I would prefer CH position, if he makes it to OLY, with much less expectation and pressure. CH may be old but fitter than a lot of players, that includes TH, and being in the CHN team, all players have to be ultra fit, therefore while we can equate fitness to age, in CH case, that may not applied. Of course, both CH and TH has to rank high enough to avoid facing the top guns in the early rounds. I would love to see CH play OLY08, but realistically, I cannot see that happen, politics the way it is.;)

[jimbo]

[quote=jimbo]The top best players can beat each other on any given night, a slight off form, pressure/nervous, lack of a good night sleep, etc. can mean a loss. CH has the privilege of training with LD, knows his game well, and can beat LD on a one game showdown, being independent can plays his game all out. I would not envy LD pressure (talking about pressure) of WC, rank #1 for how long now??, the best player in the world, and playing in Beiging with the entire masses expectation on him. I would prefer CH position, if he makes it to OLY, with much less expectation and pressure. CH may be old but fitter than a lot of players, that includes TH, and being in the CHN team, all players have to be ultra fit, therefore while we can equate fitness to age, in CH case, that may not applied. Of course, both CH and TH has to rank high enough to avoid facing the top guns in the early rounds. I would love to see CH play OLY08, but realistically, I cannot see that happen, politics the way it is.

I truly agree with ur arguments. Yes, CH is still a reckon force and I nvr doubt his ability to qualify for the Olympics. And yes, u are absolutely right that he may not make it to Olympics amid qualified coz politically, LYB will show "who is the boss". Sad but true :)

I admit that I've shown huge admiration to both mighty LD and Taufik, and that had caused my misjudgements, my bad on that :p

[Shifty]

Let me quote from the commentator during the All England Men Singles Final between LD and CY. He/commentator said something like this,"He/CY shown no signs of injuries that affected him throughout this AE tournament. In fact, he fought all the way to final after pulling out of German Open final last week (vs LD)."

Again, you dont need to be Albert Einstein to understand what he/commentator meant, and certainly he cant use the words "cheat" or "disguised" or "unsportmanship" of LYB.

Certainly we do understand players are bound for injuries esp in badminton, and I have no doubt that it takes time to recover. But within few days? C'on, we aint dumbs :rolleyes:

I also understand that German Badminton Association raised their concerns and frustrations after seeing CY played extremely well in early rounds of AE after citing injuries in German Open final just few days ago.

well, maybe the thing is, if CY put 100% into German Open, he'd have not been able to participate in the AE. as it was, he gave his best in the AE despite being injured, maybe that rest from the GO final gave him the little extra he needed to get to the finals, because he got demolished by LD and who knows, maybe CY was too wasted by then. i think he really was saving himself during the German Open to give it his all in the AE. and when you say no sign of injury, that's on visible sign, injury can be caused to the inside, and while it hurts, most people from Team China have to bear it. if CY wasn't injured, he'd have played in the ABC, but i think he over-exerted himself in the AE. if he played the GO final, he might have to skip several months of badminton.

i've seen this before, when someone due to injury, doesn't play low level tournaments and saves oneself for the full charge at a higher tournament, but due to doing that, they had to take a break afterwards.

[Shifty]

i choose to have faith in Lin Dan to deliver the gold, CH ain't gonna last long.

[OneToughBirdie]

[quote=OneToughBirdie]

I truly agree with ur arguments. Yes, CH is still a reckon force and I nvr doubt his ability to qualify for the Olympics. And yes, u are absolutely right that he may not make it to Olympics amid qualified coz politically, LYB will show "who is the boss". Sad but true :)

I admit that I've shown huge admiration to both mighty LD and Taufik, and that had caused my misjudgements, my bad on that :p
If I am betting, I be silly not to bet on LD or TH, the best players proven winners and I too admire them both so much so I flew to Anaheim WC05 just to watch both of them play, and you know what, seeing them live is a lot different than seeing on computer...and do not feel your judgement is incorrect...I would bet LD to win in Beiging, except that in badminton, anything could happen, that is why it is such an exciting game, now I am bias...hahaha!

[jimbo]

[quote=jimbo]
If I am betting, I be silly not to bet on LD or TH, the best players proven winners and I too admire them both so much so I flew to Anaheim WC05 just to watch both of them play, and you know what, seeing them live is a lot different than seeing on computer...and do not feel your judgement is incorrect...I would bet LD to win in Beiging, except that in badminton, anything could happen, that is why it is such an exciting game, now I am bias...hahaha!

Though I am a Msian, I lived in Phoenix for 6yrs and travelled (during my stay in PHX from 1995-1999) to Calif and MA for California Open and Massatheus (sorry for the wrong spelling) Open. That was before LD's era.

IMHO, the best performance from Taufik was last yr Asian Doha Game when he beat the mighy LD in straight game. Gosh... those net shots are flawless. LD had no answer for those tight net shots and Taufik was simply toooooo gooooood :p

[tjl_vanguard]

[quote=OneToughBirdie]

Though I am a Msian, I lived in Phoenix for 6yrs and travelled (during my stay in PHX from 1995-1999) to Calif and MA for California Open and Massatheus (sorry for the wrong spelling) Open. That was before LD's era.

IMHO, the best performance from Taufik was last yr Asian Doha Game when he beat the mighy LD in straight game. Gosh... those net shots are flawless. LD had no answer for those tight net shots and Taufik was simply toooooo gooooood :p
nope... TH's flawless and greatest game i ever saw is during WC 2005 when he won..... :D

[jamesd20]

Lu Qicheng? if you think about, CH has usually lost to LD, and will keep doing it as he degrades faster than LD as his age gets bigger.

Lu Who?!!:D joking.

Why Will CH degrade faster than LD? IMHO I tihnk LD will degrade faster than CH. LD Technique not as kind to his body, and Based around his physical game this will be harder to acheive when older.

[jimbo]

nope... TH's flawless and greatest game i ever saw is during WC 2005 when he won..... :D

Yes, I watched the game. Hmm... yes, it was another great performance by both players, esp Taufik. Hopefully we will see another LD vs Taufik in Singapore Open final. :)

[Shifty]

Lu Who?!!:D joking.

Why Will CH degrade faster than LD? IMHO I tihnk LD will degrade faster than CH. LD Technique not as kind to his body, and Based around his physical game this will be harder to acheive when older.

never heard of Lu Qicheng? no, i doubt it. you have to take in that every year older means a lot more work needs to be done, and every year after, the results are magnified more and more each time. CH lost to Taufik and the recent ABC didn't he? he looked a lot worse than last year.

[jamesd20]

CH lost to Taufik and the recent ABC didn't he? he looked a lot worse than last year.

Going slightly off topic here, but Yes he did, but it was close, and (If you beleive what taufik says) he was carrying a slight injury. And has in the past often lost to TH anyway.

But your opinion can only reinforce my opinion that CH, TH, LCW have all dropped a level, but still remain top players because no-one else is there. And if they have all dropped, and LQ has not made a major impression on the tournaments he has been in Means he is at an even lower level still.

[LazyBuddy]

Please, LYB neednt afraid about what competition that CH will snatch all the medals away. I suppose you are only looking from ONE perspective but NOT the whole scenario. LOL, LYB has many players who can win over CH, you name it, they did before. By thinking that CH playing outside China Team is a beginning point of China's team rivalry, how much sense does it makes? They are all professionals and are mature to know that TOP PLAYERS will probably becoming COACH (if they want it), other than CH's case where he becoming a free-agent to still playing badminton (not for own team). If CH becoming a coach for other countries, he too has become a competitor to LYB. So, how do you see this? LOL !

LYB is not afraid of CH. Remember, CHN team faces much tougher issues in the 90's, where they lose more medals than they gain (espeically men's team). If the CHN team worried, and lost their hope, and give up, or just pray other teams get isssues (like some of us here do), they will never improve to today's dominance.

What troubles LYB is CH might start a trend to the young players. Just picture this, do you want to see say, everyday, 10 of your players submit their resignation letters, and ask for their "freedom"? :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

Let me quote from the commentator during the All England Men Singles Final between LD and CY. He/commentator said something like this,"He/CY shown no signs of injuries that affected him throughout this AE tournament. In fact, he fought all the way to final after pulling out of German Open final last week (vs LD)."

Again, you dont need to be Albert Einstein to understand what he/commentator meant, and certainly he cant use the words "cheat" or "disguised" or "unsportmanship" of LYB.

Certainly we do understand players are bound for injuries esp in badminton, and I have no doubt that it takes time to recover. But within few days? C'on, we aint dumbs :rolleyes:

I also understand that German Badminton Association raised their concerns and frustrations after seeing CY played extremely well in early rounds of AE after citing injuries in German Open final just few days ago.

What the commentator saying in the public is very much un-professional. He's not the player, and how could he know how serious the pain or mental tireness bother the player?

Remember Penny Hardway and Grant Hill? Both played through serious injuries in the playoffs, before going down to surgeries the following year. Both of them average 20+ points in playoffs, but what happend to them in the summer? Surgeries after surgeries, and none of them can be anywhere near their top forms ever.

So, now, we say CY or LYB is cheating. Do you really feel sorry, if say CY really fight and get a career ending injury during the game. Oh, wait, if so, your guys will say, "fix match", or "stupid". :mad:

Btw, if I remember correctly, the next tourn CY played (KO?), he lost the 1st round to Roslin. So, do you think that's a proof or not? I don't think Roslin ever joined CHN. :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

It's good to know that CH is still training under the province instead of national team. I am very concerned for the quality of his sparring partners (no disrespect to other non-national PRC players) because it's very difficult to stay on top of the game both physically and mentally. No doubt CH is still a world beater, but he aint young. If I'm not mistaken, his coach is Xiong Guo Bao (Ex-national player).

I think it's every player's dream to play n win Olyimpics medals, and it's no different for CH. I hope he will play in 2008 Olympics but I doubt he will win coz the mighty LD and Taufik will be too strong for CH.

1. Many province team players are also world class players. Players like Xu Huaiwen and Pi Hongyan, they were from the province team or national team 2 before they become a force after moving out. Therefore, the training quality in province team is very decent compare to most of other national teams. Also, CH is from Fujian, which is known as a badminton power house.

2. I seriously doubt CH's intention is to make the Olympics 2008. Remember, no individual can participate, unless being part of the national squard. I think CH's main reason to come out of retirement is:
2.1 Prove "I still can".
2.2 $$$

[LazyBuddy]

I think it is good for CH but bad for LYB personally. It doesn't affect Team China a bit.


Of course it seriously affect the team. :cool:

If an example is set, LYB will see almost all of his top guns and the young rising stars will lose concentration, and everyone might want to be out, and dig their own gold pot. As a boss, do you want to see all your staffs leave, and start their own business and compete with you tomorrow?

CH got into the national team, and received all the $$$ and benefits when he's younger with no name. To me, it's like signing a contract. You put your signature down, and you need to obey the terms. If you have so much confidence in yourself, you should just quit the national team, when you are no name. Hire your own coach, rent your own gym, and traing and play with your own $$$ (like many western players do). If you are successful, and you fight for your own, I have nothing to say, but cheer loudly for you.

Now, you are getting better without even a penny out of your own pocket, and even guranteed a job for life. Suddenly, you realized that there are younger and better players upcoming, you scream for "i want my freedom"??? :eek: :mad:

[Shiryu]

2. I seriously doubt CH's intention is to make the Olympics 2008. Remember, no individual can participate, unless being part of the national squard. I think CH's main reason to come out of retirement is:
2.1 Prove "I still can".
2.2 $$$

Agreed.

and may I add:

2.3 Building his profile to become a coach somewhere when he's ready to retire from playing.

2.4 Just to have fun.

[jamesd20]

1. Many province team players are also world class players. Players like Xu Huaiwen and Pi Hongyan, they were from the province team or national team 2 before they become a force after moving out. Therefore, the training quality in province team is very decent compare to most of other national teams. Also, CH is from Fujian, which is known as a badminton power house.

2. I seriously doubt CH's intention is to make the Olympics 2008. Remember, no individual can participate, unless being part of the national squard. I think CH's main reason to come out of retirement is:
2.1 Prove "I still can".
2.2 $$$

In response to point 1. Yes definitely, in fact some of the province players may be better than the National players, but don't get picked for National team for many reasons, likewise, some players may not get chosen for province team but be better than Province team members. It is a question of being in the right place at the right time, and knowing the right people. It will happen in any country, in any sport.

In response to point 2. Yes definitely. my point mentioned in post #65 after point 3. Chen Hong is less likely to compete in olympics as an individual than part of CHN team. Even if he returns to national team he won't be picked unless serious injury to 2-3 players. He knew this from when he decided to leave and he made his choice.

as good as the thread has been I think we have covered just about every point now.

[Shifty]

Going slightly off topic here, but Yes he did, but it was close, and (If you beleive what taufik says) he was carrying a slight injury. And has in the past often lost to TH anyway.

But your opinion can only reinforce my opinion that CH, TH, LCW have all dropped a level, but still remain top players because no-one else is there. And if they have all dropped, and LQ has not made a major impression on the tournaments he has been in Means he is at an even lower level still.

Lu is what, 17? 18? He's still young. remember CJ only started to win(internationally, senior) when he was 20 or so.

also, what LazyBuddy said about masking injuries is a very real thing which happens to many people. LD's abdominal injury most likely didn't occur during the match against Santoso, but more likely a gradual build up of torn muscle tissue, which would've been troubling him for a long time. it was only when the pain got unbearable to him that he had to retire, and we have to remember, he can withstand pain (AE 2006 Finals).

[Joyous]

1) It's very normal for a coach to express his disappointment when his
'protege' becomes 'prodigal'. More so from someone as outspoken
as LYB. I agree with some of you that LYB's disappointment is that
it may set a precedent for the rest to follow. And that sort of
disappointment is understandable.

2) Gillian Clark & the male commentator were doubtful about CY's injury
in the AE 07 but when the camera zoom in on CY's ankle, Gillian
was convinced of CY's injury.

3) LD - my Chinese friend quoted a Chinese article wherein LD's father
mentioned that LD is a strongheaded person even when he was
young. Even when punished, he will endure the pain. Anybody can
confirm on this ???

[Shifty]

3) LD - my Chinese friend quoted a Chinese article wherein LD's father
mentioned that LD is a strongheaded person even when he was
young. Even when punished, he will endure the pain. Anybody can
confirm on this ???

well, there was that occasion when he injured his knee during the AE 06 finals, and he still managed to win from 9-5 up. afterwards, his knee was really swollen and purple. it's in this forum, some article about a 12 year old meeting him after the game and the kid confirmed Lin Dan's injury. LD managed to suck it up and beat Lee Hyun Il.

[jimbo]

Btw, if I remember correctly, the next tourn CY played (KO?), he lost the 1st round to Roslin. So, do you think that's a proof or not? I don't think Roslin ever joined CHN. :cool:

Hmm... u sure about that? If my memory serves me right, there's no tournament after AE07. Anyway, I could be wrong... old man here :D

[Shifty]

Swiss Open, maybe he got confuddled

[jamesd20]

Yes CJ didn't make impression until 20, but Arguably he still hasn't made a huge impression now (partly my point)

LD was in QF of AE at 17, CH won at 20.

[Shifty]

well, not everyone's the same. Han Jian started at 17 and won a World Champ. it's different for each individual. Mai Audina beat Zhang Ning at 15

[LazyBuddy]

Agreed.

and may I add:

2.3 Building his profile to become a coach somewhere when he's ready to retire from playing.

2.4 Just to have fun.

I agree with 2.4.

However, I don't think 2.3 is a main reason. CH got almost every title a player can even dreamed about, therefore, he's resume is way better than almost everyone else already. As long as he wants, I am pretty sure almost all the teams will give him a shot to be coach.

[vching]

internet was down for a few days... anyway:

all statements that i wanted to say have been mentioned except:



i find what you say about the 1.3B ppl thing total b*** s***. why's New Zealand world class in rowing? why did we take 4 golds in the world champs in rowing, when we've got 4 MILLION people, against Russia, who's got a population that's hundreds times larger than us, but we beat them with Georgina and Caroline Evers-Swindell. if not, what about the America's Cup, when we face off against a country with 220 Million and still defeat the USA. what about rugby? a 4 million ppl nation dominating the world? defeating england, Aus and SA? it's not a matter of population, if so, it would mean China dominating track events but it's America who does.

it's not a matter of how many people there are, it's a matter of how hard you try, and frankly, the Chinese are the ones who try hardest, and maybe a little respect for thier efforts won't go astray, rather than saying it's a population thing, when it's not, it's about who tries the hardest.

I think you are the b**l sh*tter here. We will all agree that talent plays a big part in all sports. I also agree that training will, to some extent. Which country do you think would have more talent? Which country has a higher talent pool to choose from? A country with a bigger population ie china would be nothing if we combine countries to equal China's population size. if we combine malaysia, indonesia etc etc, and train all their atheletes together, of course the results would be much much better. Take it this way: if you have more people, there would be more people in ur country that are willing to train hard, which makes competition harder, which make people train harder etc etc. Of course population matters! what the h*ll are you b**l sh*tting about? And I am taking absolutely nothing away from the great chinese players. I rever them, and i respect them to the maximum. But I am saying population will play a factor, however small.



i just think people should really think about the efforts of Chinese players before critisizing them. after all, i haven't heard anyone stirring up fuss about Taufik walking out of the Hong Kong Open, which can be considered unsportsman by anyone.
no one is disrespecting or doubting the efforts of the chiense players. they are hardworking, and I respect it. Try not to pull things out of thin air. Many people condemned Taufik for walking out. We were very dissapointed in him.




CY withdrew in GO due to injury. His performance in AE make injury more seriously.
this is the reason for his withdrawl from ABC.

LYB is concerned with his players' health. he is a xxx (you can imagine any word here) if he forced injured CY to continue to play in final.

oh how gullible. i am very sure cy withdrew. dont tell me he recovered 1 day later after a plane trip, packing, going into new hotel, etc etc? dont make me laugh



I don't think it's a simple matter of CHN might get a few less medals, with CH now competing on his own.

I think what LYB feel upset is more like "CH" to set an example for the younger generation. If CH continues his success, and gain a lot of $$$ for his own, what you think the existing or upcoming national team members will think? And remember, they can all use injuries as an excuse to retire, and leave some "juice" in themselves, and come back to make their $$$.

I know LYB is not a fan favorite, but we need to understand his situation. He and his staffs (of course, with funding from the nation) put huge investment on the players. Now, only to watch the players walk out of the door, and start their own business (play as an individual). If you are a boss, and you spend so much time and $$$ to train your workers, only to see them walk away upon graduation, and start their own business to compete with you. How you feel? :o


I don't want to add oil to the fire, but some how, the more topics I read regarding LYB or CHN team, the more I got pissed off.

1st, let me defend myself. If ppl here long enough, they know my favorite MD players are Sigit and Tony G, my favorite WS player are Susi and Gong ZC. Never to metion, I was once pissed off my local group, because I was the only one cheered and cried, when Demark lost the TC to CHN. So, please don't use the "narrow mind" to describe me.

Somehow, I think the main reason a lot of ppl jumping out (with a report, rather than confirmed sources) to "support" CH, is NOT because they really like him (remind me if I am wrong, when CH was #1 in 2003 or so, I heard overwhelming things about whether he's not good, too weak, too simple in game play, etc). Suddenly, CH becomes a "fan's favorite", simply because a lot of LOSERS here (yeah, I mean losers) think CH will now take several more medals away from CHN team. How sick is that and how sad is that??? :mad: Come on, you lose your hope to your local players, and only pray other teams get some "internal conflicts"??? That's really "sportsmanship".

Not to take away any credits away from CH. I know it's a hard decision for him, as he still wants to play, and gain some $$$ for his family. However, I have to say, his decision somehow is very "selfish". Please don't give me all the "freedom vs. communist" talk. Let me put this way, when CH got into the sportschool, then, city team, providance team, then national team, he was fully aware about his decision (ok, maybe not when he was 5 yrs old, but you tell me he did not know anything even when he's 20s?). The decision is, to take the sponsorship from government, and train hard. To me, it's like an contract. You gain some, you lose some. Ppl only looked at the gems CHN team have. However, do you see the investments? There are 200+ national team members, how many of them even can be in Team I? So, 90% of them, just become ordinary ppl like you or me. Do they need to re-pay the $$$ to the government, because they are not as good? No. Instead, many of them get free education, free training, and even job referrals. They got all that, because they got the potential, and the government is very well noticed that the return ratio is low, but they decide to do so.

Take a look at CH. He knows this. I don't mind if he "retire" when he was, say 16 or 18 (don't tell me he still does not know "there's no free lunch" when he's 18). Then, continue on with training, coaching and tournies with HIS OWN cost. If he can be a top gun, I show fully support to his decision. Now, what the hell is this? Ok, you fully took "free ride" with all the benefit, and become a star. Now, you suddenly jump out and say, "I have my freedom". Give me a break... CH, sorry to say, you lost my respect and support in a big way... :mad:

Don't give me the crap about "other nations / players". A lot of the western players, they train on their own, or a significant % of them own, especially when they were young and still a no name. I don't mind they say, "I have my freedom", because they were on their own to begin with. CH and rest of CHN team members are different. They stay quiet when they need the "free $$$" and obey the rules, and suddenly, they want their "freedom" now???


i think players should be allowed to do that. its their lives. Malaysia allows it to happen, why not china? Its a lot to do with your own dedication and training, so why shouldn't you have a say in what you want to do with it? So lets say lazybuddy gets free education by the government. do you have to go and work for the government sector until you die? or can you join the private sector after a stint in the government? is working privately cheating? are you cheaply getting a free ride?


http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by ye333
Well, being a native speaker of mandarin for >30 years, I find the figurative use of "da3duan4ta1de tui3" very unnatural. Yes you can try to interpret it as "try to make LCW run as much as possible", but I just find it unnatural, I have never heard anyone using it in the above sense. The only way "da3duan4" being used figuratively I can think of is "da3duan4" some process, say somebody's talking. So either I do not have enough experience with Mandarin or LYB has just added a new usage to "da3duan4".

As to "break" in English, I think there are many examples of it being used figuratively in sports talking.

I hope I have made myself clear. "Da3duan4" can be interpreted in your way, but to me it just sounds very unnatural. For example, if I say, "wang3si3li3da3", that sounds worse than "da3duan4", but unless my protege is really beating some ppl up, it is natural to understand it in a figurative way.


Please, we are not doing a lecture here, and we are not lawyers. How people speak, in what tones, only themselves or the close ones will know. Judge a person's statement because you "get used to " or "never heard about it" is nowhere near to be accurate.

Many ppl jokes around their friends, with the word like "I kick you butt", "burn ur house down" or "chop your xxx off". Do you think they are really doing a bloody battle, and we should call cops? Of course not. :o

but is LYB saying it to his friends? he said it in a professional tournament! that is unprofessional behaviour, and he dosent deserve to be respected one bit methinks.

[LazyBuddy]

I think you are the b**l sh*tter here. We will all agree that talent plays a big part in all sports. I also agree that training will, to some extent. Which country do you think would have more talent? Which country has a higher talent pool to choose from? A country with a bigger population ie china would be nothing if we combine countries to equal China's population size. if we combine malaysia, indonesia etc etc, and train all their atheletes together, of course the results would be much much better. Take it this way: if you have more people, there would be more people in ur country that are willing to train hard, which makes competition harder, which make people train harder etc etc. Of course population matters! what the h*ll are you b**l sh*tting about? And I am taking absolutely nothing away from the great chinese players. I rever them, and i respect them to the maximum. But I am saying population will play a factor, however small.


i think players should be allowed to do that. its their lives. Malaysia allows it to happen, why not china? Its a lot to do with your own dedication and training, so why shouldn't you have a say in what you want to do with it? So lets say lazybuddy gets free education by the government. do you have to go and work for the government sector until you die? or can you join the private sector after a stint in the government? is working privately cheating? are you cheaply getting a free ride?



1. Population does count, but a successful and proven system counts even more. If population is everything, we should see nations like India, US (no disrespect to their players) to be in the same level as CHN, or not far away. Nations like Denmark might rank 150 or beyond. Clearly, it's not the case. Denmark is still a force, but many other nations which have way more population are not, or never even ever close to be. Remember, the entries for a tournament is not based on the population ratio. CHN team might have 20 ppl qualify for Olympics, but they only send 3. Other nations might only have 3, but all 3 can go.

2. The "free ride" is consider as a contract by me. Sure, it might not have the lawyer-written wording, or 2 dozens signatures. However, do you want to keep your promise with honor, or at least, once the conflcts of interest coming up, think twice between the individual and the group? You agreed with the terms, and enjoyed all the benefit, once you have a conflict with the "duty", you just say, "oh, freedom"... :cool:

3. Like I said many times, CH took the advantage to get free training, salary, etc, even when he was a little kid. There's no free lunch in this world, and CH fully aware of it, at least, after he's 15 or above. If he quit national team way back then, and train/play by himself, I have nothing against him, but full respect. But now, he's using other ppl's investment to rise his own "stocks", and now, tell me "give me my freedom"??? :eek: Fine, there's no written rule to sue or bann him. However, he did lose my respect in a big way.

4. Regarding ur example of "free education". My current job pays for my master degree. There's no written regulation whether I should stay or not, after my graduation. I know there're ppl taking advantage of it, to get the "free ride". However, with my honor, I think I own them one, as they helped me when i need it, and give me a chance to shine. I want to back up my honor, and work hard for them. Of course, this might be stupid, as there's no lawyer chasing me anyway, but I consider the honor and honest is more valueable than $$$ or a title. :cool:

[eguitarcoolboy]

1. Population does count, but a successful and proven system counts even more. If population is everything, we should see nations like India, US (no disrespect to their players) to be in the same level as CHN, or not far away. Nations like Denmark might rank 150 or beyond. Clearly, it's not the case. Denmark is still a force, but many other nations which have way more population are not, or never even ever close to be. Remember, the entries for a tournament is not based on the population ratio. CHN team might have 20 ppl qualify for Olympics, but they only send 3. Other nations might only have 3, but all 3 can go.

2. The "free ride" is consider as a contract by me. Sure, it might not have the lawyer-written wording, or 2 dozens signatures. However, do you want to keep your promise with honor, or at least, once the conflcts of interest coming up, think twice between the individual and the group? You agreed with the terms, and enjoyed all the benefit, once you have a conflict with the "duty", you just say, "oh, freedom"... :cool:

3. Like I said many times, CH took the advantage to get free training, salary, etc, even when he was a little kid. There's no free lunch in this world, and CH fully aware of it, at least, after he's 15 or above. If he quit national team way back then, and train/play by himself, I have nothing against him, but full respect. But now, he's using other ppl's investment to rise his own "stocks", and now, tell me "give me my freedom"??? :eek: Fine, there's no written rule to sue or bann him. However, he did lose my respect in a big way.

4. Regarding ur example of "free education". My current job pays for my master degree. There's no written regulation whether I should stay or not, after my graduation. I know there're ppl taking advantage of it, to get the "free ride". However, with my honor, I think I own them one, as they helped me when i need it, and give me a chance to shine. I want to back up my honor, and work hard for them. Of course, this might be stupid, as there's no lawyer chasing me anyway, but I consider the honor and honest is more valueable than $$$ or a title. :cool:

It's getting abit too hot here, but I would like to share something too. To be able to be good at a sport, talent, effort and perhaps a good development system are important. However, have you ever thought of the physical limitation and tradition/culture within the country are significant enough to influence the outcome? Without any intention to arise a racism issue, have you seem any one could consistently produce good result in world class 100M and 200M competition, ie Olympics? The African American rule these events. Think about NBA, anyone could be better than them? Once again, I am talking about CONSISTENTLY producing the result but not those one of a trillion kinds. And as I know that Asians are supposed to produce better result at Badminton as agility and reflexes are really important.

The second one is that tradition/culture play a big part in the sport. Why New Zealand produce world class Rugby players? Coz it's a culture to watch and love Rugby, everyone here love Rugby. Compare to China, America and India who have a much bigger population, why cant they produce some good players? The thing is, they don't care as not as many people in the country are interested in this sport, China have table tannis, badminton, gymnastics and you name it; America have NFL, NBA and baseball; UK have football... that's why you don't see many people from the western side produce good result consistently. Talk about Peter Gade and Kenneth? They are under the one of a trillion kind category. Take a look at the Top 20 Ranked players, how many of them are from western country? Like somebody from this Forum mentioned before, if they can produce better result and have a better future in soccer, rugby and etc, why bothered forcing yourself into a sport that you will never make it to the world? When you are young, you were brought up with one sport, then you will like the one sport that you are brought up with. That's y people in NZ like Rugby. If one really like Badminton but having the potential to be one of the top Rugby players; who do you think this individual wanna be? It's obvious.

At last, let's talk about the Duty and Freedom issue that CH brought up. I respect your honour and honesty, it's truely a great principle to practise. But I respect CH too, for his determination and guts to stand up for himself. Hey, it's his life you are talking about, not yours. Think about it, in a business world, isn't it normal? You got to know one thing, these boys from China they don't get to choose the sport they like, but the country choose them (correct me if i am wrong, i got this idea from a sport tape and a gymnastics coach)!! Which means they don't have a choice but to train hard for badminton.

You said you will stay and work for the company, but how long would you plan to stay there? 10 years? 20 years? My company do that to me as well, they provide education and training. I appreciate it from the very deep of my heart, but when you ask me do I stay here forever? My answer is NO. I am a human being, i have my own plan and ambitious, i want my own business. A company would get a item and get this thing worked for them forever but not a Human being. I am pretty sure you will do the same, right? I don't mind working here for another 10 years if the company need me. But what if you feel that you are not that important to the company anymore? what if you feel that someone in the company is replacing you? Put yourself in CH situation, LYB do not focus so much on him anymore but the youngsters. its normal, yes. But hey, how many years CH has been in the team? All his life? Did he give up on the team when LYB dropped him in Olympics 2004? Did he give up when he was dropped from Thomas Cup 2006? He didn't, only now he gave up... the poor guy knows that he wasn't needed in the team anymore... eventhough LYB said so, but all the things that LYB did tell us that he would not provide any chance for CH to participate in important competitions eventhough he is still capable. He came out because he knows that he can still make some great achievement with is ability. He is 27 years old now, if he doesnt do it now, when should he do it? He could have done this in 2004 when he was dropped from the Olympics but he didnt, he kept on waiting until he feel despair and disappointed.

Plus, he got a family now... Think about if you have a family and what you earn cannot support your financial needs, would you do something? would you think of getting a better job eventhough you owe your company a big time? Again, it's your life that you are talking about not anything else. He is selfish? He is indeed, I am, you are and everybody is. Simply because we are human being. Don't tell me you are a hero who will sacrifice yourself just for good of others, it only happens to a small group of people in the whole world without anyone forcing them. And I certainly not one of them.

Kent

[Shifty]

I think you are the b**l sh*tter here. We will all agree that talent plays a big part in all sports. I also agree that training will, to some extent. Which country do you think would have more talent? Which country has a higher talent pool to choose from? A country with a bigger population ie china would be nothing if we combine countries to equal China's population size. if we combine malaysia, indonesia etc etc, and train all their atheletes together, of course the results would be much much better. Take it this way: if you have more people, there would be more people in ur country that are willing to train hard, which makes competition harder, which make people train harder etc etc. Of course population matters! what the h*ll are you b**l sh*tting about? And I am taking absolutely nothing away from the great chinese players. I rever them, and i respect them to the maximum. But I am saying population will play a factor, however small.

tell me why a 4 million population nation leads the world in rugby, rowing and won more gold at the olympics per million than China, India and America? population may count, but in the end, it's the individual who puts in the most effort isn't it?

as for the China bashing, never read of all those posts complaining about China's domination in badminton? about how China's women are so strong, etc etc? i think you will have, and let's say this, China's not gonna sit back and let others take over them. it's not about their population, it's about the effort each person puts in. what about Denmark? they're world class and have no where near the population as Malaysia or Indo

[LazyBuddy]

At last, let's talk about the Duty and Freedom issue that CH brought up. I respect your honour and honesty, it's truely a great principle to practise. But I respect CH too, for his determination and guts to stand up for himself. Hey, it's his life you are talking about, not yours. Think about it, in a business world, isn't it normal? You got to know one thing, these boys from China they don't get to choose the sport they like, but the country choose them (correct me if i am wrong, i got this idea from a sport tape and a gymnastics coach)!! Which means they don't have a choice but to train hard for badminton.

You said you will stay and work for the company, but how long would you plan to stay there? 10 years? 20 years? My company do that to me as well, they provide education and training. I appreciate it from the very deep of my heart, but when you ask me do I stay here forever? My answer is NO. I am a human being, i have my own plan and ambitious, i want my own business. A company would get a item and get this thing worked for them forever but not a Human being. I am pretty sure you will do the same, right? I don't mind working here for another 10 years if the company need me. But what if you feel that you are not that important to the company anymore? what if you feel that someone in the company is replacing you? Put yourself in CH situation, LYB do not focus so much on him anymore but the youngsters. its normal, yes. But hey, how many years CH has been in the team? All his life? Did he give up on the team when LYB dropped him in Olympics 2004? Did he give up when he was dropped from Thomas Cup 2006? He didn't, only now he gave up... the poor guy knows that he wasn't needed in the team anymore... eventhough LYB said so, but all the things that LYB did tell us that he would not provide any chance for CH to participate in important competitions eventhough he is still capable. He came out because he knows that he can still make some great achievement with is ability. He is 27 years old now, if he doesnt do it now, when should he do it? He could have done this in 2004 when he was dropped from the Olympics but he didnt, he kept on waiting until he feel despair and disappointed.

Plus, he got a family now... Think about if you have a family and what you earn cannot support your financial needs, would you do something? would you think of getting a better job eventhough you owe your company a big time? Again, it's your life that you are talking about not anything else. He is selfish? He is indeed, I am, you are and everybody is. Simply because we are human being. Don't tell me you are a hero who will sacrifice yourself just for good of others, it only happens to a small group of people in the whole world without anyone forcing them. And I certainly not one of them.

Kent

Ok, I got your point.

However, the reason I brought up my point of view is NOT to say whether CH is wrong, or LYB is a bastard or the other way around.

CH as an individual, I understand his feeling and concern. However, that does not mean everything he does is right. He might pick a choice with influence (i.e. family, budget, pride, etc), and try to do the best for himself, but from LYB's point of view, it certain have conflicts with the team's interests.

Now, let's shift to LYB's point of view. As a person who got a job assignment (to lead the team to be the best), he has to judge a case from the team value. Therefore, his statement about CH's come back is very much legit as well.

My point is, many things do not necessarily have a good side vs. an evil side. It's just a matter of conflict of interests. At the time we praise CH's braveness, we should not beating up LYB. He's simply a guy who needs to get his job done, and voice his concern. Regardless u like him or not, I am sure he has his rights to voice his thoughts.

I don't have a problem that CH picks his way to continue his career, even though personally I do question about his honor and honesty in some degree. However, CH is not the god or lifesaver in the badminton world, and we certainly should not "use" him as a weapon to attack CHN team and LYB. You can surely support your side, but the intention from many so-call "fans" is very much questionable. :cool:

[eguitarcoolboy]

Ok, I got your point.

However, the reason I brought up my point of view is NOT to say whether CH is wrong, or LYB is a bastard or the other way around.

CH as an individual, I understand his feeling and concern. However, that does not mean everything he does is right. He might pick a choice with influence (i.e. family, budget, pride, etc), and try to do the best for himself, but from LYB's point of view, it certain have conflicts with the team's interests.

Now, let's shift to LYB's point of view. As a person who got a job assignment (to lead the team to be the best), he has to judge a case from the team value. Therefore, his statement about CH's come back is very much legit as well.

My point is, many things do not necessarily have a good side vs. an evil side. It's just a matter of conflict of interests. At the time we praise CH's braveness, we should not beating up LYB. He's simply a guy who needs to get his job done, and voice his concern. Regardless u like him or not, I am sure he has his rights to voice his thoughts.

I don't have a problem that CH picks his way to continue his career, even though personally I do question about his honor and honesty in some degree. However, CH is not the god or lifesaver in the badminton world, and we certainly should not "use" him as a weapon to attack CHN team and LYB. You can surely support your side, but the intention from many so-call "fans" is very much questionable. :cool:

I do agree your point as well and I can understand y you are pissed off or perhaps not so happy about people's comments on LYB. I never said I hate LYB in fact, i respect what he does for China and does such a great job to make China dominating the badminton world. Like you said he is just doing his job and nothing wrong about it. I got quite annoyed when I read about people bash him for match fixing and other stuff. But hey, he is just another human being trying to do the very best he can. I am sure he got better offer from other countries (I am assuming...), but he chose to stay with China. That's something we should appreciate and respect. He is doing such a great job that others cannot.

I am sure no one would agree what CH is doing if you look at this matter from LYB's view. But saying that you lost all your respect to CH's act is abit too harsh i would say. I didn't say he is right to do that as i said its a selfish act he is doing. But that's human, LYB tried his best to keep his job without caring his players feeling (things like giving all chances to youngsters to secure good result) and fans' feeling (reserve players energy in least important tournament). You can say he is selfish, but bashing him with all kinds of personal attack is unnecessary. Hey my friend, I understand your situation and know y you try to defense LYB. It was neither LYB or CH's fault, they are just doing what they can, It's the fans make it a big deal and as you can see and it something you got to understand: fans are sided all the time, take it easy so you will be happier. Enjoys.

Kent

[pjswift]

Lu is what, 17? 18? He's still young. remember CJ only started to win(internationally, senior) when he was 20 or so.

also, what LazyBuddy said about masking injuries is a very real thing which happens to many people. LD's abdominal injury most likely didn't occur during the match against Santoso, but more likely a gradual build up of torn muscle tissue, which would've been troubling him for a long time. it was only when the pain got unbearable to him that he had to retire, and we have to remember, he can withstand pain (AE 2006 Finals).
Have to agree LD's pain threshold is very high, almost infinite. The poor guy's showing signs of aging through wear and tear. In AE06, he's up against LYI, who's also totally exhausted by his SF match. He withstood the pain because he knew he could outlast LHI who's much older. With Santoso, who's much younger,LD knew he's unlikely to outlast him although Santoso had played 3 more matches to qualify. If LD had won the first game, he probably would have put up with the pain. Another 21 points, ok. 42 points more to go?No way. I would say Santoso's the hero.

[pjswift]

Of course it seriously affect the team. :cool:

If an example is set, LYB will see almost all of his top guns and the young rising stars will lose concentration, and everyone might want to be out, and dig their own gold pot. As a boss, do you want to see all your staffs leave, and start their own business and compete with you tomorrow?

CH got into the national team, and received all the $$$ and benefits when he's younger with no name. To me, it's like signing a contract. You put your signature down, and you need to obey the terms. If you have so much confidence in yourself, you should just quit the national team, when you are no name. Hire your own coach, rent your own gym, and traing and play with your own $$$ (like many western players do). If you are successful, and you fight for your own, I have nothing to say, but cheer loudly for you.

Now, you are getting better without even a penny out of your own pocket, and even guranteed a job for life. Suddenly, you realized that there are younger and better players upcoming, you scream for "i want my freedom"??? :eek: :mad:
I don't know what kind of firm you work for but Team CHN doesn't seem like your company. Every badminton talent is dying to get in and the ones who left are the ones LYB had no place for. Except CH , of course.
No business would invest in its staff unless the calculated risks indicate the return would reap multifold.So your company have paid for your training; they know you are worth it and that you would bring in more $$$ than what they forked out for your sponsored education. It's good that you feel gratified;reflects on your good upbringing. However, I would question your judgment on others who don't behave likewise.
Let's take a look at CH.
CH got into Team CHN because they wanted him. He's star material who can bring glory to CHN. He's one of the few excellent enough to be selected for badminton national service. CH would have stayed if LYB had given him the freedom to play honestly against his teammates and win titles and not make way for LD (or BCL, most recently) CH had been slaving for Team CHN since LD became WR1.He has done more than enough for Team CHN. Buttressing up LD is bearable bile but to have to do that for BCL(who has never beaten him?) was the last straw.
Can you imagine if you do great work and your boss said your less worthy colleague will get the credit? Once may be ok, twice....? Thrice ??? All the time for the rest of your career? You think you will stay on because your boss once fed you in your hour of greatest need? Or maybe , you happen to be in LD's position...in which case I can understand your undying gratitude.
Of course CH's going 'free' will seriously affect CHN team A. CH has been a great anchor. Look at Team A 's first long outing without CH.They won the GO, AE and SWO 07 for sure. And look at the damage they also brought home.Injuries to all the four? Unheard of in the past. Because CH wasn't there to absorb and deflect the damage? Maybe it's a coincidence. Think about it.
From now on, MS badminton is going to get interesting.

[OneToughBirdie]

If LYB said CH comeback is bad for CHN, then it would be good for badminton fans, LOL!:)

[ctjcad]

..on this topic..After reading and re-reading and re-reading some of the posts,
hmm, Chen Hong's move seemed like a Catch-22(if you guys know what it means)..:p
Well, IMO, i think LYB should be grateful for what CH has done for "his" team China, throughout so many yrs. But at the same time he should also be grateful that he still has a very formidable team, one which most other countries' coaches would love to have, for other countries to contend with...Whether what LYB meant by "Chen's comeback bad for China" translates to other players, who are currently in the CHN national team, quitting early only to sign on & play with another sponsor, that remains to be seen..
I think one great example of a grateful coach/player is coach Christian Hadinata. I remember in 2005 WC Final, after Tony Gunawan & Howard Bach won the title over Candra & Sigit, coach Christian remarked that he's glad and proud w/ Tony and what he has achieved and wished him the best; eventhough I'm sure coach Christian would love to have Tony on his side...:p:cool:
For Chen Hong, i'm sure this move is essentially for his financial security more so than his playing career(as he's married); but if he's able to popularize the sport to an even greater heights, then more power to him..:cool:

Bottomline, *all* of China(yes, incl. LYB) should be proud and grateful for their athletes(past or present, active or non-active in the national team) and what they've given & accomplished..And should continue to support their upcoming junior & young players for their future place in history..:cool:

[Shifty]

Have to agree LD's pain threshold is very high, almost infinite. The poor guy's showing signs of aging through wear and tear. In AE06, he's up against LYI, who's also totally exhausted by his SF match. He withstood the pain because he knew he could outlast LHI who's much older. With Santoso, who's much younger,LD knew he's unlikely to outlast him although Santoso had played 3 more matches to qualify. If LD had won the first game, he probably would have put up with the pain. Another 21 points, ok. 42 points more to go?No way. I would say Santoso's the hero.

Santoso was lucky to get into Finals :D :D nah, just jokes, he played brilliant to beat both CY and LD, both injured, so yeah, let's hope we see more of him. i remember he lost the final game against Peter Rassumsen in Thomas Cup against Denmark in 2004 in a thrilling 2-3 loss. he played good. just inexperienced.

[LazyBuddy]

I don't know what kind of firm you work for but Team CHN doesn't seem like your company. Every badminton talent is dying to get in and the ones who left are the ones LYB had no place for. Except CH , of course.
No business would invest in its staff unless the calculated risks indicate the return would reap multifold.So your company have paid for your training; they know you are worth it and that you would bring in more $$$ than what they forked out for your sponsored education. It's good that you feel gratified;reflects on your good upbringing. However, I would question your judgment on others who don't behave likewise.
Let's take a look at CH.
CH got into Team CHN because they wanted him. He's star material who can bring glory to CHN. He's one of the few excellent enough to be selected for badminton national service. CH would have stayed if LYB had given him the freedom to play honestly against his teammates and win titles and not make way for LD (or BCL, most recently) CH had been slaving for Team CHN since LD became WR1.He has done more than enough for Team CHN. Buttressing up LD is bearable bile but to have to do that for BCL(who has never beaten him?) was the last straw.
Can you imagine if you do great work and your boss said your less worthy colleague will get the credit? Once may be ok, twice....? Thrice ??? All the time for the rest of your career? You think you will stay on because your boss once fed you in your hour of greatest need? Or maybe , you happen to be in LD's position...in which case I can understand your undying gratitude.
Of course CH's going 'free' will seriously affect CHN team A. CH has been a great anchor. Look at Team A 's first long outing without CH.They won the GO, AE and SWO 07 for sure. And look at the damage they also brought home.Injuries to all the four? Unheard of in the past. Because CH wasn't there to absorb and deflect the damage? Maybe it's a coincidence. Think about it.
From now on, MS badminton is going to get interesting.

1. CHN government invest millions on hundreds thousands of young players, but the return ratio is just like 0.0001%, which are the well known stars that we read everyday. Just as in Beijing, I believe the nationa teams training center has over 100-200 players (nationa team I, II, III, junior, etc) Do you think everyone of them will be LD or CH one day. Of course not. Only like 5-10% of them will even be heard ever since. However, the government will still invest on EVERYONE of them? Why? Because it's an investment, and you know what you risk is.

2. Like I said, be a part of the team is like signing a contract. To me, it's ridiculous to say CHN team wants CH (when he was a kid, no name) to be the very begining with. Come on, if CH for some reason never got to the training system like 10-20 yrs ago, there will be another CH to replace him. Not another one, might be another 10, 20, 50, if you know the CHN talent pool. CH made to today, and become a star. However, even if he got injuried or never be a star, the government still pay for all the expends, and his salary. So, the government full filled they contract term.

3. Yes, the contract might not be perfect to begin with. However, CH took it, and he should have his honor to back it up. You can say, the government selected him as a kid, but don't tell me, he does not know all the consequences when he's 18 or older. So, what he was doing when he was not a star yet? Ok, let me relax, lay down, and get my guranteed job. Perform or not, I have my $$$. Oh wait, now I am a star, the monthly salary can't make me happy now. And damn, I am no longer the leading horse of the group. Fine, check the rule book, consult with the lawyer. Wahahahahha, no clear written rule, great, "fans, support me, FREEDOM..."

Man, I just feel a bit sick. I respect his game, feel sorry for his situation, but I also feel a bit sick...

[LazyBuddy]

I think one great example of a grateful coach/player is coach Christian Hadinata. I remember in 2005 WC Final, after Tony Gunawan & Howard Bach won the title over Candra & Sigit, coach Christian remarked that he's glad and proud w/ Tony and what he has achieved and wished him the best; eventhough I'm sure coach Christian would love to have Tony on his side...:p:cool:
For Chen Hong, i'm sure this move is essentially for his financial security more so than his playing career(as he's married); but if he's able to popularize the sport to an even greater heights, then more power to him..:cool:



As a player, I don't have an issue with CH. As a person, I voiced my concern already, and I don't want to repeat the same post.

One thing I feel bad about this topic, is, many so call "fair fans" are not really the loyal supporter for CH, but using his case as a weapon to attack LYB and/or CHN team. Why, because they are the losers. It's like, I can't win, so, I hope my opponent will get an car accident. :cool: :eek:

Ppl, think this. The so call "Free nations" have associations (B*M, P*SI) using "delayed applications" to get rid of participants. Sure, their official did not say "xxx is no good for the team", but they did the trick under the table. LYB is the big mouth bastard in the world (according to many "loyal" fans here), he said something worth our 200 pages of debate, but CHN team still did not just "forgot" CH's application, and CH did get his chance to participate. So, go figure. :rolleyes:

[XiaoQing]

Complete abusrd comment on LYB and CH affairs, I suggest you all put this issue aside and concentrate on badminton. Taling about badminton in political terms is no good to badminton itself and no good to its fans.

[huangkwokhau]

As a player, I don't have an issue with CH. As a person, I voiced my concern already, and I don't want to repeat the same post.

One thing I feel bad about this topic, is, many so call "fair fans" are not really the loyal supporter for CH, but using his case as a weapon to attack LYB and/or CHN team. Why, because they are the losers. It's like, I can't win, so, I hope my opponent will get an car accident. :cool: :eek:

Ppl, think this. The so call "Free nations" have associations (B*M, P*SI) using "delayed applications" to get rid of participants. Sure, their official did not say "xxx is no good for the team", but they did the trick under the table. LYB is the big mouth bastard in the world (according to many "loyal" fans here), he said something worth our 200 pages of debate, but CHN team still did not just "forgot" CH's application, and CH did get his chance to participate. So, go figure. :rolleyes:

Your comments are so ridiculous...please be cool...you insulted so called" free nation"...you have no right as noone attack chinese badminton association...you should grow up

[huangkwokhau]

Complete abusrd comment on LYB and CH affairs, I suggest you all put this issue aside and concentrate on badminton. Taling about badminton in political terms is no good to badminton itself and no good to its fans.

I agree...only CH and LYB know...:p

[huangkwokhau]

Your comments are so ridiculous...please be cool...you insulted so called" free nation"...you have no right as noone attack chinese badminton association...you should grow up

wow..sorry..I quoted the wrong column...so sorry!!!:p

[Shifty]

Your comments are so ridiculous...please be cool...you insulted so called" free nation"...you have no right as noone attack chinese badminton association...you should grow up

are you serious? haven't you read the previous posts? tons of people have made attacks of China? i have to agree with LazyBuddy here, i don't like the way how tons of people say the chinese are this and that. but that's beside the point, Chen Hong ain't a threat, he got his ass kicked by Sony Dwi Kuncoro.

[huangkwokhau]

are you serious? haven't you read the previous posts? tons of people have made attacks of China? i have to agree with LazyBuddy here, i don't like the way how tons of people say the chinese are this and that. but that's beside the point, Chen Hong ain't a threat, he got his ass kicked by Sony Dwi Kuncoro.

I said" I put wrong column"""...dont worry about it:rolleyes:

[huangkwokhau]

are you serious? haven't you read the previous posts? tons of people have made attacks of China? i have to agree with LazyBuddy here, i don't like the way how tons of people say the chinese are this and that. but that's beside the point, Chen Hong ain't a threat, he got his ass kicked by Sony Dwi Kuncoro.

Also another case for Zhou Mi....printed on South Morning China Post...similar case also happened to ZM..LYB attacked her integrity, etc...fearing her move to Malaysia...but after her move to HK..LYB softened his attack...so you can read the article..I believe on april 29 or 30 in HKG....so you see...LYB is control freak...despite he is right or wrong...also ZM insisted that she did not need permission from LYB to move to other countries...believe me...this case is similar to some INDO players in the past like Mia Audina...

I guess some fans are fair enough about LYB...he is controversial but he is also the success of Chinese badminton...he has tough leadership..!!

[Simoneolivelli]

i will respect a person where respect is due - not someone that wants to break a players (lcw) leg just becauase his disciple is against him.


if you want better badminton, you should hope that CH dosent join the national team - or he will suddenly 'break' his leg again and recover a day later like chen yu

Sorry, can you explain me these two facts?
LYB wanted to break Lee Chong Wei's leg?:eek:
Why?

And what did it happen to Chen Yu's leg? When?:eek:

[Shifty]

Sorry, can you explain me these two facts?
LYB wanted to break Lee Chong Wei's leg?:eek:
Why?

And what did it happen to Chen Yu's leg? When?:eek:

apparently, Li Yongbo told Bao Chunlai to break Lee's leg during their 06 World Champ encounter. personally, i think everyone's overreacting about it. whoop di-do, Li said "break his leg". so what? go start World War 3 over it if you really want. if you want aggression, watch the New Zealand All Black' haka. they don't say it directly, but they look like they'll rip off the opponent's head off. so what? the opponents just carry on. it's a way of firing people up. as long as you don't actually break the leg or rip the head off, it's ok.

as for Chen Yu's leg, i'm assuming he's referring to the German Open, when Chen Yu didn't play in the final for injury problem. people say why did he play in All England few days after? a few days does wonders to an injury. he wanted to rest up for the AE, which is by far the most important. to be a good player, you have to learn what to give up and when to play. take Taufik. doesn't play lots, but he gets it right for the big ones. so Chen Yu was probably saving up for a good AE. and remember, you can't tell a muscle injury by looking, it ain't a flesh wound. so don't try and say he didn't have an injury, after all, people can play through pain. it's called perseverance. innocent until proven guilty.

[Simoneolivelli]

Thanks very much.
In my opinion, CY have done a curiouse decision, because... ok AE is most important than GO, but in this tournament he was in final...while in AE he can't know where can arrive.

But maybe the injury during before the final didn't allow him to play, and the same time wasn't so serious to create a lot of problems for AE.
I hope.

[cooler]

i'm surprised that some people still dont get over LYB instruction to bcl to break lcw's leg. At least where i live, the phrase 'go break a leg' is commonly spoken by coaches to pump up his or her students before or during a match of any sport. I'm sure LYB borrowed that from his western counterpart. It seem LYB is more open minded or more acceptance to western connotation then some younger generation in asia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_a_leg

[JasonMichael]

telling someone to break a leg and instructing some to break Lee Chong Wai's leg is totally different dude.... I'm pretty sure LYB wanted BCL to break LCW's leg if BCL lost that game...haha :mad:



i'm surprised that some people still dont get over LYB instruction to bcl to break lcw's leg. At least where i live, the phrase 'go break a leg' is commonly spoken by coaches to pump up his or her students before or during a match of any sport. I'm sure LYB borrowed that from his western counterpart. It seem LYB is more open minded or more acceptance to western connotation then some younger generation in asia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_a_leg

[cooler]

telling someone to break a leg and instructing some to break Lee Chong Wai's leg is totally different dude.... I'm pretty sure LYB wanted BCL to break LCW's leg if BCL lost that game...haha :mad:so, for a malaysian, u should know inside out of LYB:rolleyes:
u should be an advisor for BAM or misbun:rolleyes:

[samuel882]

apparently, Li Yongbo told Bao Chunlai to break Lee's leg during their 06 World Champ encounter. personally, i think everyone's overreacting about it. whoop di-do, Li said "break his leg". so what? go start World War 3 over it if you really want. if you want aggression, watch the New Zealand All Black' haka. they don't say it directly, but they look like they'll rip off the opponent's head off. so what? the opponents just carry on. it's a way of firing people up. as long as you don't actually break the leg or rip the head off, it's ok.

as for Chen Yu's leg, i'm assuming he's referring to the German Open, when Chen Yu didn't play in the final for injury problem. people say why did he play in All England few days after? a few days does wonders to an injury. he wanted to rest up for the AE, which is by far the most important. to be a good player, you have to learn what to give up and when to play. take Taufik. doesn't play lots, but he gets it right for the big ones. so Chen Yu was probably saving up for a good AE. and remember, you can't tell a muscle injury by looking, it ain't a flesh wound. so don't try and say he didn't have an injury, after all, people can play through pain. it's called perseverance. innocent until proven guilty.
IF in CY's mind AE > German open.. Y he enroll for the GO then?

[JasonMichael]

I would, like ants, want to be called a global citizen, thank you...
secondly, I dont know LYB inside out but LCW was the one who told reporters that he heard LYB shouting behind him towards BCL to break LCW's leg, and not to break a leg... just differentiating the two.
and BAM or Misbun should'nt hire me just based on my quotes on badminton central.. I'm just stating my opinion, like many other badminton central members that are malaysian citizens or non malaysian citizens...



so, for a malaysian, u should know inside out of LYB:rolleyes:
u should be an advisor for BAM or misbun:rolleyes:

[Shifty]

IF in CY's mind AE > German open.. Y he enroll for the GO then?

to get ranking points/prize money. why else? but i think he(or Li Yongbo) understands the difference of points between 1st and 2nd, and the prize money, isn't worth aggravating his injury.