Weird doubles tactics (so I've been told)

[MythrilBlue]

Hi everyone! I usually play doubles and I used to prefer playing back court when our team is attacking. I didn't like playing front because I never really knew what my partner was doing or where my partner was.

After taking a few months off, I started again playing with a different group of people and I found myself in the front a lot, and I actually enjoy it! It is such an offensive position and I love pouncing on the easy short lifts or intercepting low cross-court drives. Ok, I'll get to the tactics part now :p

Let's say a lift is made to the right corner and my partner moves back to take the shot, I move towards the T, but position myself very slightly on the right of the T. There are three kinds of stokes my partner can make; a smash, a drop, or a lift... or into the net, but that doesn't count. When it's a smash or a drop, things are usually fine. The opposition either tries to drop or lift; either way I'm at the front ready to drive back and my partner is already in the back.

Now, let's say my partner makes a lift from the back right court straight to the opponent's back hand court. We usually move back to a side-by-side position, but because I'm diagonally receiving, I find myself staying a little behind the T and to the left of it. Again, the opponents either smashes, drops, or lifts. By being further in front, I find that smashes that come cross-court provides many opportunities to regain attack. I can drive back the shuttle because the shuttle is not so below the net. I can drop to an opening. Also, any smashes that come down the middle are usually intercepted by me because I'm slightly in front.

I've found that when our team is receiving cross-court smashes, we tend to gain back control or win the point with the positioning I described above. However, when we are dead square-on, I found that we do not gain back control as easily.

It makes logical sense to me the way I play front, but I've not found other people doing it, and I've been told that it's weird because I'm closer to the smash, but somehow I still manage to control the play. I don't think it's anything to do with skills more so than positioning. What do you all think?

[xt6666]

If you partner plays a clear down the line (on the right side), both of you should move a little bit to the right and the cross court player should move a little bit in front! NOT ABSOLUTLY square! Because the cross smash travles a little bit longer, you can stand a little bit more in front...

So you can intercept it earlier and HIGHER...

And if you can intercept it earlier and higher, you can make better shot and so it'S quite normal, that you can more often regain attacking position.

Another point is, that cross court smash is normaly a little bit weaker then the longline smash.

AND: if your opponent smashes crosh court and is partner is also stand a little bit to the right, then the left side is "open".

That's why you should normally attack longline or between you opponents and not cross court... (for about 70-80% of your strokes)


EDIT: sorry for my english, don't get me wrong:
If you partner plays a clear, I must leave the front court position, I mean you (if you stand cross court / on the left side) should stay a little bit more in front then your partner (perhaps one small step) and not in the middle of your side... And both of you should not stand in the middle of your "half-courts", but one step to the right... So you can cover the court much better

[xt6666]

I made a quick "picture"

[xt6666]

Now your opponents move into attacking position, their left (from your point of view) side is open for a fast/drive return (if the front court player is not qucik enough...)

Hope you can see, that your (cross court) defensive position is slighty nearer to the net...

[Gollum]

It's not a weird doubles tactic; it's standard, good positioning :)

The crosscourt defender always moves closer in -- both forwards and towards the middle line. His partner may also move slightly farther towards the tramlines.

This way, you are both the same distance from the smasher, even though the crosscourt defender is closer to the net. Also, you are covering the straight angles very well, so the smasher is tempted to try an extreme crosscourt angle -- a high risk shot that gives you excellent counter-attacking chances.

[xt6666]

THX Gollum!

Exactly what I tried to explain, but it's difficult to do it in a "foreign" language

[jerby]

It's indeed 'standard'... Though watch out for smart players, if you stand too close the odd crossclear might get you, but it rarely happens....

though I still think players should get a point deduction for clearing in mensdoubles ;)

[Dreamzz]

yup, not weird at all, i do that as well. in fact, i'm pretty sure everyone in my club does the same thing.

[Loppy]

Yes this tactic works if you're playing against weak opponents, because the crosscourt smashes will be weak and they probably cannot do a full-length crosscourt clear.

[xt6666]

This has nothing to do with the strength of your opponent...

[jerby]

depends on how much you exadurate it...if you stand centimeters behind the T..you could be in serious trouble against a hard hitter...

though the general idea has, indeed, nothing to do with your opponents skill

[xt6666]

But nobody says you should stand centimeters behind the T...

;-)

Just stay one step (a small step) in front...

[Dreamzz]

i would say that how close to the net you stay is almost directly proportional to how strong your opponent's back court play is.

[Gollum]

Yes this tactic works if you're playing against weak opponents, because the crosscourt smashes will be weak and they probably cannot do a full-length crosscourt clear.

No, it's simple geometry.

Your position on the court is determined by how quickly you can react to different strokes. When your opponent smashes, you have to stand far enough away from him -- not from the net, but from him -- in order to have time to react.

Crosscourt smashes, clears, and dropshots all take longer to cross the net than straight ones. Therefore you can stand farther forward on the crosscourt angle.

It doesn't matter how powerful your opponent's smash is: his crosscourt smash will always (ceteris paribus) be slower than his straight smash, because it has farther to travel.

If an opponent has a weak smash, then both defenders can move closer. If he has a strong smash, then both defenders should respect it and back off. But the crosscourt defender should still be closer to the net (assuming the same defending abilities/reaction times).

[xt6666]

Does someone has a programm to make such "tactics" like I did at the beginning of the post?

Perhaps a little flash program oder Excel?

[foo.tw]

It really depends on your opponent. If he's good enough to do fast fast smash on the line, it will be very hard for you to defend standing at that position. Also, he can simply make a flick shot down the front-left. Cross-court flat-clear is also dangerous for your parter to cover your side. Below is what I usually do at this position. http://www.govern.com.tw/uploads/photos/297.jpgHe can also make a fake drop and flat-clear to you partner's backcourt when he is moving forward.( Generally I don't do this, cause U have to consider different player's movement speed)

[jerby]

in short, if he's good enough...every shot is difficult...

the idea behind it is: How likely is your opponent to see you're standing in the center? and if he does the crossocurt netshot, it's either gonna be reachable or slow...and the ever 55% chance of faillure..

if you're going to be afraid of every possible shot he could make you'll end up standing in the center of "your half" not helping your buddy...
(Doubles)Positioning is abotu covering all the most likely/fast replies, but still minding the others

[foo.tw]

in short, if he's good enough...every shot is difficult...

the idea behind it is: How likely is your opponent to see you're standing in the center? and if he does the crossocurt netshot, it's either gonna be reachable or slow...and the ever 55% chance of faillure..

if you're going to be afraid of every possible shot he could make you'll end up standing in the center of "your half" not helping your buddy...
(Doubles)Positioning is abotu covering all the most likely/fast replies, but still minding the others If your opponent is that bad, why should you help your partner? He win the game 1 on 2 .

[foo.tw]

For you second question, how can he see your position, a good player can make shots without looking at the shuttle until the last moment( even without an eye in some position). What is he doing when he is not looking at the shuttle?

[Gollum]

(Doubles)Positioning is abotu covering all the most likely/fast replies, but still minding the others
Exactly.

You cover the straight shots because they are the fastest ones.

The crosscourt shots are slower, so you have more time.

Lee Jae Bok has a very perceptive way of thinking about positioning. He says that your body should be ready for the straight shot, but your mind should be ready for the crosscourt shot.

The point here is that crosscourt shots can be hard to "read" or "see", so you should watch out for them -- but your position should still be biased for the straight shot, which is easier to "see" but comes faster.

Also, it can be harder to judge the point of contact for a crosscourt shot, because it is passing across your direction rather than coming straight at you.

[foo.tw]

This trick is not totally worthless afterall. But you can't always do this. You have to tell if your opponent "will" be passivly hitting the shuttle. If you can tell that when he's backing, you can even stand at the original position. The time for you to think and action is about 0.3 sec which is enough for midium players.

[jerby]

It really depends on your opponent. If he's good enough to do fast fast smash on the line, it will be very hard for you to defend standing at that position. Also, he can simply make a flick shot down the front-left. Cross-court flat-clear is also dangerous for your parter to cover your side. Below is what I usually do at this position. http://www.govern.com.tw/uploads/photos/297.jpgHe can also make a fake drop and flat-clear to you partner's backcourt when he is moving forward.( Generally I don't do this, cause U have to consider different player's movement speed)
Sorry I was a bit late, I didn't see your picture...

you seem to have covered every reply by the attacking side..except the regular/normal ones..Like the smashes down the line, smashes to the middle (with the possible variation of which player he smashes to) and drops to the middle.

as for the second and third replys, I'll be slightly more clear (Thoug Gollum mentioned it: You position yourself in the middle to cover all the most likely replys which are (coincidentally? no...these are doubles) the fastest.

All those "scary shots" (don't mean to sound patronising) like that short dropshot, deep clear and on-the-line crossmash are slower, more prone to error and less likely to be played...
(I'd say the drop is the most dangerous one though..clears are highly unlikely and interceptable, and the crosssmash will have to go right past you...)

[jerby]

this is, if you ask me, what 80% off all doubles attacking play looks like. red lines are smashes, blue are dropshots.

you might notice a difference in diagrams between Foo's and mine. Some mgith ask why the dropshots I drew fall so far back. because doubles is a game of pace: the short-falling drops will always be slower than the further falling (the have to slow down to drop afetr the net) allowing opponents to get to the shuttle soon if they anticipate it...

[foo.tw]

I don't think the flat-clear is interceptable, unless you can jump as high as Air Jordan. There's also a high chance that you will bump into your partner when he is covering your position. As to why no middle attack, Everyone on the court know that you are in mid, and fast attack at where a good player can reach is useless. It's more likly to creat a better chance to attack where you have to move to reach the shuttle.

[foo.tw]

this is, if you ask me, what 80% off all doubles attacking play looks like. red lines are smashes, blue are dropshots.

you might notice a difference in diagrams between Foo's and mine. Some mgith ask why the dropshots I drew fall so far back. because doubles is a game of pace: the short-falling drops will always be slower than the further falling (the have to slow down to drop afetr the net) allowing opponents to get to the shuttle soon if they anticipate it... I'll have to say, it also depend on your opponent... A simplr drop is slow for sure, but it's not that case for flick shots. If you can execute perfect flick shots at this position with your posture unpredictable, you will see how dangerous this can be.

[jerby]

Okay, I have to admit...I'm 1.99m :p
though, the way I see it: if it's too high to intercept, it's too high(=slow) to worry about...

and the 'attacking the middle'...it's really, really..the most common smash in doubles

[foo.tw]

Maybe the difference lies in: I don't like to play with player who's skill level is under 95% of other players.

[Gollum]

Jerby's diagram is a pretty good representation of defensive positions and normal attacking shots. I would recommend a couple of minor changes:
Straight defender should be farther back -- about one step back from the centre.
Both defenders should be slightly farther to the left (so as not to leave such a large crosscourt gap).The basic doubles rearcourt attacking tactics are as follows:
You mostly hit smashes.
The rest are dropshots.
These are nearly always fast dropshots, landing about the service line.
Slow dropshots should only be used if your opponents are late covering the front of the court. Otherwise, they will kill the shuttle or play a tight, spinning netshot.
Use clears only if you spot that your opponents aren't ready for them. Otherwise, your opponents get to attack.
You mostly hit straight angles: into the tramlines, or directly at the straight defender.
Straight shots are the fastest shots; your opponents have the least time to react.
Hitting to the centre/between your opponents is a good variation, because it can cause confusion about who should take the shot. Hitting to the centre also helps you to cover all angles of reply the most effectively.
If you are attacking from the centre (not a corner), then you should almost always hit to the centre -- because in this situation, you get all the advantages of both centre and straight attack combined!
Defenders should avoid lifting to the centre for this reason. Lift to a corner instead.
Crosscourt angles are dangerous: you are opening up your court to a straight counter-attack, which is very hard to cover. Use them with discretion. Given that the attackers' most effective options are straight/centre angles, it makes sense to bias your position to cover these. That way, you take the sting out of their nastiest shots, while tempting them to try tactically dubious crosscourt angles instead.

Of course, if you bias your position too much towards the straight angles, you won't be able to cover the crosscourt. You have to find a balance.

[jerby]

I doubt anybody could've put it better..and yeah, now I look at it, my diagram's off... kinda hard representating a human being as a dot i guess ;) (not factoring in reach, spreading of feet etc)

[cappy75]

A flat clear is still a clear. Your opponent doesn't need to jump to intercept it. In a good defensive position, he could take a step back and still make an overhead shot (clear if he's late; smash/drop if he's early).

You notice that most shots in fast pace games are safe shots that are hit downward around the middle court and near the inner tramline, that's because slower more angular shots to the corners are harder to make when you're moving fast. It's better to keep the shuttle in than hit it out, maybe hitting the low percentage shots once in a while.


I don't think the flat-clear is interceptable, unless you can jump as high as Air Jordan. There's also a high chance that you will bump into your partner when he is covering your position. As to why no middle attack, Everyone on the court know that you are in mid, and fast attack at where a good player can reach is useless. It's more likly to creat a better chance to attack where you have to move to reach the shuttle.

[fatjohnny]

As far as i have played in china and sri lanka i found in doubles speed counts most also positioning some what helps, but rotating front and rear during a rally and not letting the shuttle be lifted is the best way to win games, i dontthink of shots the openet will play, soem shots aremis timed and land short so if u r slow they still get a point. so one of you have to be quick no matter if u have the best of shots in the book if u r slow u r adead duck.:D

[MythrilBlue]

OMG what have I started??? :eek:

Well, I'm glad more than one person seems to agree that it's not a weird double's tactics. Now I can send this link to those people and they can check it out themselves :D xt6666, jerby, foo.tw... you guys did an excellent job of drawing what I meant. And Gollum, as always, provided lots of useful information. Thanks!

I always did think it was strange when I'm told to be square on when preparing for a smash. It just didn't make any geometrical sense, especially when the smash would be coming from a corner. As for drops and attacking clears to the left corner, I like to do a variation of what Lee Jae Bok said. I prepare the body for smashes and I prepare the mind for the other shots. Not only that, I prepare where I would place the return so that I would not simply be getting the shuttle over the net to the other side. Sometimes the shot is just too hard to try to place it in the position I want, but at least I have pre-considered the options and am in a better position to inflict some damage, and I find that helps winning the game a lot :cool:

[Gollum]

I always did think it was strange when I'm told to be square on when preparing for a smash. It just didn't make any geometrical sense, especially when the smash would be coming from a corner.

You should be square-on to the smasher, not to the net.