China coach takes issue over Sudirman Cup order rumpus
Sun Jun 17, 1:34 PM ET

Chinese coach Li Yongbo criticised the eleventh hour attempt by the Badminton World Federation to rejig the order of play in the Sudirman Cup final which his team won here Sunday.

China raced off with their sixth final beating Indonesia 3-0 to rob spectators of the showdown between world champion Lin Dan and Olympic champion Taufik Hidayat, one of two 'dead' rubbers.

In the draw on Saturday night, the order was pulled out of a hat - a change to previous years - and the men's singles came out last. With China winning the first three rubbers, it meant that the last two did not need to be played.

Early Sunday championship director and the chief executive of Badminton Scotland, Anne Smillie, arranged a meeting between tournament referee Keith Hawthorne and the two team coaches to try and arrange a change the order.

But Li would not budge.

"It was most unfortunate," said Smillie, who could otherwise reflect on a hugely successful week.

'The draw was made late on Saturday night and I realise it would have been extremely difficult to change it on Sunday morning and maybe upset the players' mental state and their preparation for such an important match.

"But it was very disappointing. It was a fist class show and it would have been brilliant for the spectators and the TV audience if there had been a different order of play. It was the only hiccup, but one that mattered a great deal."

But Li said he was also angered. 'I am not happy either," he said. "I don't think the BWF has shown any respect to the players or coaches. The casual attitude about draws is not very good."

Hawthorne also realized he had made a mistake. "On hindsight, we shouldn't have done it," he said.

'I have apologised to Anne Smillie and Badminton Scotland."

Previously, the order of play was decided between the two team managers - this time it was changed and pulled out of a hat from the semi-final stage.

But the schedule apart, Li was pleased with his team's display but critical of Lin, who had lost China's only rubber of the week, losing to Malaysia's Lee Chong Wie in the group matches.

"The mixed doubles and men's doubles were particularly pleasing and everything is shaping up well for the Olympics in Beijing next year," he said.

"But there was disappointment in Lin's performance.

"He should learn from the men's doubles. They showed spirit and determination. He has done that in the past, but not this week."
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Sudirman Cup final order of play arouses controversies

The play order of the badminton Sudirman Cup final on Sunday remained unchanged despite a proposal of having men's singles played earlier.

Official at the tournament were trying to put the most eye-catching men's singles in first three rubbers, which was down at bottom of the five sets as was decided by draw the previous night, due to worries that it won't be played at all if hot favorites China beat Indonesia 3-0 or 3-1.

Officials from the world governing body BWF phoned the Chinese team hours before the kickoff of the final on Sunday but China refused to accept any change, according to a Chinese coach.

Sudirman Cup media officer William Kings told Xinhua that some broadcasters were eager to have pictures of the anticipated clash between Chinese world number one Lin Dan and his archrival Olympic champion Taufik Hidayat.

"They went crazy when they're aware that there might not be a men's singles at all," he said, "Everyone wants to see that. It's a real exciting part of the tournament."

Indonesia are making their seventh appearance in the final although they only won the tournament once in the 1989 inaugural edition.

Five-time winners China, chasing their sixth Sudirman trophy in Glasgow, beat Indonesia in the 2005 final in Beijing.

Source: Xinhua
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I think in this sudirman, lin dan isn't in form. However, i doubt taufik would go all out anyway since he knows he would be playing for a lost cause once INA lost the XD. So if LD vs TH match was selected to play, both won't be playing at their best.

MAS is more of a "growing up lesson" for MD, WD, WS (Anita) and XD.

About the new tournament rule change using draws to determine matches from semis onwards, most coaches including LYB (and us obviously) wasn't happy with the change. But once the draw was made, LYB wasn't going to agree to changes, else why have the rule change in the first place.

For once I agree with LYB, though I still miss LD vs Taufik.

MAS is more of a "growing up lesson" for MD, WD, WS (Anita) and XD.

About the new tournament rule change using draws to determine matches from semis onwards, most coaches including LYB (and us obviously) wasn't happy with the change. But once the draw was made, LYB wasn't going to agree to changes, else why have the rule change in the first place.

For once I agree with LYB, though I still miss LD vs Taufik.
Beg to differ. I thought LYB was against the LCW vs LD match being played last, claiming LD will be demotivated? But with the LD vs TH match being scheduled last, LD will not be similarly demotivated? Is LYB a coward?
The rule needs to be changed and order of play fixed like:
XD,MS,WS,MD,WD. This will automatically take care of problems where players are in 2 events.
Otherwise all matches should be played. 3-0 is misleading. The real score is likely to be 4-1 if the MS match had been played.
Is this the first SC where the talk is how well run and how it has been a success but years later fans will remember being cheated of their star match? To me, this SC is like throwing a big party but the star did not show up.
BWF,mistakes happen. Idiocy is when mistakes are repeated. Intelligence is when mistakes are corrected and not allowed to happen again. Show us which 'I' represents you.
Frankly ,I'm adsolutely disgusted because this makes Badminton look so stupid.

Beg to differ. I thought LYB was against the LCW vs LD match being played last, claiming LD will be demotivated? But with the LD vs TH match being scheduled last, LD will not be similarly demotivated? Is LYB a coward?
The rule needs to be changed and order of play fixed like:
XD,MS,WS,MD,WD. This will automatically take care of problems where players are in 2 events.
Otherwise all matches should be played. 3-0 is misleading. The real score is likely to be 4-1 if the MS match had been played.
Is this the first SC where the talk is how well run and how it has been a success but years later fans will remember being cheated of their star match? To me, this SC is like throwing a big party but the star did not show up.
BWF,mistakes happen. Idiocy is when mistakes are repeated. Intelligence is when mistakes are corrected and not allowed to happen again. Show us which 'I' represents you.
Frankly ,I'm adsolutely disgusted because this makes Badminton look so stupid.
I think is better to fixed up the order and play according to it.
Those who play in two double will have to take the consequence of making the decision.
Otherwise, any match after the winning match will be discredited.
Seriously if they continue playing last night, and somehow TH beat LD, there will be like 50 pages of arguing whether LD being relax and what not.

We can see that in LCW vs LD game.

Hot favourite China comfortably retained their Sudirman Cup world mixed team championship title yesterday by beating Asian rivals Indonesia 3-0.

It was a repeat of the score line in 2005 when the biennial event was last contested and the sixth triumph for the Chinese in the 10 editions of the event since 1989.

But the final was surrounded by controversy over the sidelining of the standout clash between world number one Lin Dan and Indonesia's Olympic champion Taufik Hidayat.

China's mixed doubles pair of Zheng Bo and Gao Ling battled past Limpele Flandy and Vita Marissa 19-21, 21-17, 21-19 and the men's duo of Cai Yun and Fu Haifeng made it 2-0 when they beat Markis Kido and Candra Wijaya 21-11, 21-13.

Olympic women's singles champion Zhang Ning sealed the title with a 21-16, 21-9 success over world-ranked 44 Adriyanti Firdasari.

The 3-0 score line meant there was no need to play the women's doubles and the concluding men's singles, which would have featured a contest between world champion Lin Dan and Taufik Hidayat.

With China widely expected to win 3-0, making the last two matches redundant, officials tried hard yesterday morning to amend the situation.

But no agreement could be reached and the original order stood, to the disappointment of the 2,000 capacity crowd and anger from television stations.

Championship director Anne Smillie said: “No one is more disappointed than me. We have put on a first-class show and the final leg of this first-class performance would have been brilliant had we seen a different order of play. The crowd and television networks round the world will be disappointed but it was impossible for us on this occasion to have the order of play altered.”

Indonesia was making their seventh appearance in the final but has won only once, in 1989. China was in the final for the seventh time in succession.

You should mention the source of the article. It's from The Star Online (June 18, 2007).

My suspicion is that CHN is not interested in the MS being played. Therefore LYB preferred it to be the last match. The tournament director wanted it to be played, but CHN was insistent. I don't know about INA's stand.

When the team managers submit their lineup, they also submit their preferred match order. If the managers have no agreement on the lineup, I guess a draw will be made.

Some of the forummers blamed the tournament referee/director for this without knowing the procedures. I am still not certain of the exact procedure but this article sheds a bit of light on it.

They had this stupid rule whereby order of play is determined by draw. So the 5 matches are drawn one by one from a box, MS happened to be last.

Previously, each team manager can suggest an order of play, and the finalized one will be determined based on whether a team has players who play more than one match, so that the player can have sufficient rest in between matches.

They had this stupid rule whereby order of play is determined by draw. So the 5 matches are drawn one by one from a box, MS happened to be last.

Previously, each team manager can suggest an order of play, and the finalized one will be determined based on whether a team has players who play more than one match, so that the player can have sufficient rest in between matches.

what? u cant be serious...!!! the sequence of the matches were chosen by random pick? :eek: pls tell the officials that this is not TOTO :D

I can understand if a lady plays in both XD and WD, but which team (Div1) has a guy playing both MS and MD? I strongly believe that (due to popular demand), MS should always play as the following sequence:
XD - MS - WS - MD - WD

Still dissapointed with the officials :mad:

Lin Dan doesn't look too happy

i have merged in a couple of news article that cooler posted in another thread.

if they are to be trusted, then it is the tournament director/organizer who originally decided on the order of play by "drawing out of a hat". and then later on they figure out that randomness is not very smart and tried to change the ordering a couple of hours before the match starts.

i don't blame LYB for not allowing the change, players have been mentally prepared for their play order and trying to change things a couple of hours can potentially affect their preparation.

I wrote my comments above before reading the FINALS thread. I didn't know they changed the rules for the semifinals onwards. IMHO, they should let the team managers decide on the order and only if there is disagreement, should they draw from the hat.

However, I still think that LYB did not want Lin Dan to play and was therefore secretly happy with the draw.

However, I still think that LYB did not want Lin Dan to play and was therefore secretly happy with the draw.

i think he definitely has that in mind also, but it too was convenient for him as the hat draw just came out to his favor. sometimes some ppl just have all the luck.

I fink thats enough for the order of play of SC here...

No matter how many opinions v voice out here.. BWF(IBF??) wont listened to us ....

what? u cant be serious...!!! the sequence of the matches were chosen by random pick? :eek: pls tell the officials that this is not TOTO :D

I can understand if a lady plays in both XD and WD, but which team (Div1) has a guy playing both MS and MD? I strongly believe that (due to popular demand), MS should always play as the following sequence:
XD - MS - WS - MD - WD

Still dissapointed with the officials :mad:

I agree that their decision to randomly pick the order is not the best.

However, they also cannot fix the match order anyhow they want. How do you define "popular demand" BTW? I still think it is best to let the team managers (with mediators and certain guidelines) sort out the match order. Should there still be a disagreement, then the matches not in agreement will tbe drawn.

Hot favourite China comfortably retained their Sudirman Cup world mixed team championship title yesterday by beating Asian rivals Indonesia 3-0.

It was a repeat of the score line in 2005 when the biennial event was last contested and the sixth triumph for the Chinese in the 10 editions of the event since 1989.

But the final was surrounded by controversy over the sidelining of the standout clash between world number one Lin Dan and Indonesia's Olympic champion Taufik Hidayat.

China's mixed doubles pair of Zheng Bo and Gao Ling battled past Limpele Flandy and Vita Marissa 19-21, 21-17, 21-19 and the men's duo of Cai Yun and Fu Haifeng made it 2-0 when they beat Markis Kido and Candra Wijaya 21-11, 21-13.

Olympic women's singles champion Zhang Ning sealed the title with a 21-16, 21-9 success over world-ranked 44 Adriyanti Firdasari.

The 3-0 score line meant there was no need to play the women's doubles and the concluding men's singles, which would have featured a contest between world champion Lin Dan and Taufik Hidayat.

With China widely expected to win 3-0, making the last two matches redundant, officials tried hard yesterday morning to amend the situation.

But no agreement could be reached and the original order stood, to the disappointment of the 2,000 capacity crowd and anger from television stations.

Championship director Anne Smillie said: “No one is more disappointed than me. We have put on a first-class show and the final leg of this first-class performance would have been brilliant had we seen a different order of play. The crowd and television networks round the world will be disappointed but it was impossible for us on this occasion to have the order of play altered.”

Indonesia was making their seventh appearance in the final but has won only once, in 1989. China was in the final for the seventh time in succession.

Oops...I forgot to mention the source (Star Online dated June 18, 2007).

I too have no complaints about li yong bo's decision a few reasons. Li Yong Bo may wish to maintain the mentality of the Chinese team. They are here to win. Not to provide excitement to the spectators. Even though spectators are the reason that world badminton exists. If LYB did allow this change, it may encourage "slacker" behavior. He wishes that his players maintain their professional attitudes and so LYB retains his form and stands as an example. Exactly what leaders do. Though many people would argue that LYB is a jerk and is pummeling badminton into the gutter. But he's just acting in the best interest for the Chinese Team,(in his opinion). Plus LYB and the chinese team work D@MN HARD. I heard that many players in the Chinese national Team quit because of the hard work and training. I think Gong Zhi Chao is an example. I also think that Xie Xing Fang mentioned it in her interview. And so, it's really tough. People are tired of the Chinese winning on a consistent basis, and when they lose everybody jumps up in delight, which would probably really piss the Chinese off. Because no one jumps when they win (except china), but everybody flies when they lose (except China). And lastly, the draw out of hat thing is so g@y. I mean their original plans were better, where the managers decided the order of play. But correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have much knowledge about how the order of play works.

On a different Note, I think Lin Dan needs a break. He's been winning so much that it's probably gotten to his head. (Sort of like taufik). Maybe a bit of down time, so that he may rejuvenate may restore that motivation he lost.

Angelou, put that way, I would agree with LYB's logic, if not all his decisions. Already I missed having LCW vs Gade, there was not going to be a LD vs Taufik too .....

But I don't think LD needs a break, he just needs to find his form back after injury. A player such as him does not normally let success get to his head, he has LYB to smack him .....

But I don't think LD needs a break, he just needs to find his form back after injury. A player such as him does not normally let success get to his head, he has LYB to smack him .....

Yes, I doubt it would happen to LD. Unlike Taufik, LD has LYB over his shoulder to watch him closely. LYB is the 'almighty' in CHN camp and no way LD could do wat Taufik did (refused to compete at All England 07)

jimbo;599645]Yes, I doubt it would happen to LD. Unlike Taufik, LD has LYB over his shoulder to watch him closely. LYB is the 'almighty' in CHN camp and no way LD could do wat Taufik did (refused to compete at All England 07)[/I]

LYB may seemed dictorial but I think this abstract of article from correspondent Jan of Badzine is an eye-opener :-

“I’m not happy at all with what I’m seeing in Lin Dan now. In fact, I would like to see Lin Dan returning to his old self where he is extremely confident, driven and aggressive with an attitude. To me, that is the making of a true champion. No athlete can think of becoming a champion if he wants to be just a friendly ambassador”, said Li who hinted the possibility of dropping the world number 1 in tomorrow’s finals line-up.

“It doesn’t matter to me if the world number 1 doesn’t play in the finals and the possible controversy that would surround the decision. What is most important to me is selecting the player that will be the best representative of the Spirit of the Chinese team. The player must want to win and want to win it badly. Lin Dan has failed to convince me so far.

“But I always believe in respecting my players’ wishes and Lin Dan is very respected by his teammates too. So I will have a chat with Lin Dan about his performance today and he needs to convince me and his teammates that he is worth our trust and confidence in him, otherwise I can take the liberty to drop him”, said an indignant Li.

Based on the above, I think LYB is level headed and firm. The player can be a favorite but in a team event, team spirit is of paramount importance.

Random play order seems the fairest to me. If the order was fixed then this would favor certain nations whose best players appear early in the fixed draw and could then put pressure on the opposing team.

I do believe that the order of play dissapoints most of the spectators,since we gotta pass the MS great match.But as i know,it happends when CH team refuse the INA team order of sending MS to play as the 1st game.Maybe it's because LYB is not really confident of sending LD to play the game.So,LYB decided to bring this argument to the tournament referee board n let them decide by randomizing.

Actually,LYB n chinese national team r really afraid to send LD for a play,since LD's performance is unstable these days.CH teams worries too much,since CH team lost the only point from the championship,only from when LD lost to LCW,MAS team.The rest of the XD,MD,WS,WD never lost in the championship.So,CH team n china blames LD to losing this one point,otherwise they can go for a perfect score.

So,actually..there r alot of arguments about who's going to play for MS for CH team.Some ppl said dont let LD play,some said let LD play.
I personally think that this is kind of stupid,by letting LD to bear such a big burden,without letting a chance for him to lose.Without losing,a player can never be mature,rite?Besides,from the losing,a player could learn n correct his mistakes.

From my point of view,it's normal that LD lost.LD is not a god,who never loses.Besides,CH team only get the most competition from the MS game.The rest like WS,MD,XD,WD..china doesnt really have a real competitor in that,esp when their FHF/CY is at their peak,like how they played yesterday!

XD,i feel that indo team still brings a huge competition with them.
WS..ZN/XXF,they're simply the best WS player in the world.Till now,i've not seen anyone that brings a big competition yet.So does WD.

The order of play should be the referee's prerogative if the teams managers cannot agree and the referee guide in applying that prerogative must be the good of the viewing public. In a team match, most neutral observers would agree keeping the match live as long as possible is in the interest of badminton. If there is concern about one person (referee) deciding then an independent committee can be charged with the job.

Once a decision is made though, the game can be brought into disrespute trying to change things afterwards. Its a bit of a cockup this whole affair. Does BWF have clear (written) rules in place? Similar issues will likely arise again in Thomas, Uber and any other team competition played sequentially.

A random draw though superficially fair is not always a good mechanism - afterall seeding is taken into account in tournament draws to maximise interest in the latter stages of a competition.

What about as a mechanism, in the event of non agreement, team manager that win coin toss name 1st tie, 2nd tie decided by counterpart and so on alternatively to the last tie?

What about as a mechanism, in the event of non agreement, team manager that win coin toss name 1st tie, 2nd tie decided by counterpart and so on alternatively to the last tie?

that's a good system i think, each manager picking 1 tie after the toss. that'll improve the strategic selection of ties element as well.

all in all it was a dissapointment, it would have been very hard for INA to win 2 ties to force the final game between LD and TH. they would have had to win the XD and MD, winning 1 is difficult enough. but i get the feeling that if the tie was poised at 2-2 with MS to go, INA would have taken it. all pure speculation though!
:p

What about as a mechanism, in the event of non agreement, team manager that win coin toss name 1st tie, 2nd tie decided by counterpart and so on alternatively to the last tie?

I like this. Of course, must be in line with certain guidelines like, "no consecutive matches with same player", etc. The full guideline needs to be thought out. But this mechanism is interesting. Worth exploring.

Edit: To make it more equal, can be like winner decides to calls first. First caller decides 1st match, 2nd caller decides 2nd and 3rd matches; and the first caller decides the 4th.

The order of play should be the referee's prerogative if the teams managers cannot agree and the referee guide in applying that prerogative must be the good of the viewing public. In a team match, most neutral observers would agree keeping the match live as long as possible is in the interest of badminton. If there is concern about one person (referee) deciding then an independent committee can be charged with the job.

Once a decision is made though, the game can be brought into disrespute trying to change things afterwards. Its a bit of a cockup this whole affair. Does BWF have clear (written) rules in place? Similar issues will likely arise again in Thomas, Uber and any other team competition played sequentially.

A random draw though superficially fair is not always a good mechanism - afterall seeding is taken into account in tournament draws to maximise interest in the latter stages of a competition.

The problem with "neutral observers", "fans' interests" etc. is that there are no representatives. How do you know what the fans want? Some fans want this, some wants that. In the end, you can't please everyone.

So, for me, the best thing is let the managers contend among themselves first, and only if there is no solution, go for a toss of coin and maybe use the mechanism you mentioned above.

All the BWF talks for making Badminton friendly and attractive for television.
And the chinese coach still doesn't get it, that an all-star MS line-up is what everyone is waiting for.

Maybe LYB should realize that badminton players are also humans, and to achieve a flawless score (ie. LD getting beat by LCW) should not be the main objective.
Honestly, when "fun" disappears when you play competitive professional badminton (and in fact in every sports), playing becomes more of a hassle. Maybe that is what LD is getting through, and all those chinese players trying to attain crazy objectives.

However, I still think that LYB did not want Lin Dan to play and was therefore secretly happy with the draw.

Totally agree.

Lin Dan himself was so eager to play. That's the key point most people here fail to mention. Lindna said that he had prepared for months only for beating Taufik in the Sudirman cup. He said also he had not expected LCW's great form. LYB wanted to replace Lindan in the final, it was Lindan insisting to play in the final and he said he's fully confident to beat Taufik, and that's all he's planning to do. There was no reason to change that.

Many other Chinese coaches had complained Lindan played to much. It was LYB who always on Lindan's side. When Lindan didn't perform well. LYB was quite disappointed and also pissed off. He began to argue and fight Lindan also, which makes LYB's everybody's enemy. If he had replaced Lindan in the final, which would mean the victory of the other coaches. So he had to use Lindan in the final, although he accused Lindan in the public. Lindan himself still insisted he's better than before, and even more mature than before.

Then if Lindan wins in the final, which means Lindan's right and LYB's wrong. If Lindan loses in the final, which means other coaches' right and still LYB's wrong. So no matter Lindan's win or lose in the final, it always proves LYB's failure.

But LYB is a lucky guy, the MS listed the last event in the final which would never be processed. So finally LYB's face got saved. Lindan was not happy because he lost his chance to prove himself. and especially he's so confident himself to beat Taufik. Some Chinese coaches were happy because it gave China a 3:0 win for sure, some are happy because it prevents a confrontation inside Chinese team, while some other Chinese coaches were not happy because they wanted to see LYB's failure (no matter Lindan's win or lose), therefore their voices could be heard in the future.

It's all politics.

All the BWF talks for making Badminton friendly and attractive for television.
And the chinese coach still doesn't get it, that an all-star MS line-up is what everyone is waiting for.




Ok then, we add a new rule that if at any point a team is 2-0 down they can play their "Joker" card and choose the order of the remaining games.

I think its very dangerous all this messing with the game to please a supposed TV audience's needs. In the end you will just rip the soul out of the game and destroy it. It will end up like WWF wrestling.

When every Sudirman cup final ends 3-2 with the last game ending 32-30 with a mass brawl between the opposing players and coaches.. you'll know I was right.. :-)

Totally agree.

Lin Dan himself was so eager to play. That's the key point most people here fail to mention. Lindna said that he had prepared for months only for beating Taufik in the Sudirman cup. He said also he had not expected LCW's great form. LYB wanted to replace Lindan in the final, it was Lindan insisting to play in the final and he said he's fully confident to beat Taufik, and that's all he's planning to do. There was no reason to change that.

Many other Chinese coaches had complained Lindan played to much. It was LYB who always on Lindan's side. When Lindan didn't perform well. LYB was quite disappointed and also pissed off. He began to argue and fight Lindan also, which makes LYB's everybody's enemy. If he had replaced Lindan in the final, which would mean the victory of the other coaches. So he had to use Lindan in the final, although he accused Lindan in the public. Lindan himself still insisted he's better than before, and even more mature than before.

Then if Lindan wins in the final, which means Lindan's right and LYB's wrong. If Lindan loses in the final, which means other coaches' right and still LYB's wrong. So no matter Lindan's win or lose in the final, it always proves LYB's failure.

But LYB is a lucky guy, the MS listed the last event in the final which would never be processed. So finally LYB's face got saved. Lindan was not happy because he lost his chance to prove himself. and especially he's so confident himself to beat Taufik. Some Chinese coaches were happy because it gave China a 3:0 win for sure, some are happy because it prevents a confrontation inside Chinese team, while some other Chinese coaches were not happy because they wanted to see LYB's failure (no matter Lindan's win or lose), therefore their voices could be heard in the future.

It's all politics.
Totally disagree with your suggestion that the other coaches can actually go against LYB. Look at LYB's behaviour during interval breaks. He's the boss! Even though he's not the direct coach, he just takes over and directs the players as he likes.
But I feel sorry for LD. First, LYB's micromanaging of his career will cost him his OG gold. Second, LD's over-confidence in himself means he has no idea how badly he's been playing.He actually believed that he lost to LCW because of LCW's good form, not because LCW has improved to actually outclass him in all depts.As for TH, he has always been lazy playing 3rd class opponents, so scores indicate nothing of his form.But as long as it's not his 3rd or 4th CONSECUTIVE match, his stamina will not be a problem.

Ok then, we add a new rule that if at any point a team is 2-0 down they can play their "Joker" card and choose the order of the remaining games.

I think its very dangerous all this messing with the game to please a supposed TV audience's needs. In the end you will just rip the soul out of the game and destroy it. It will end up like WWF wrestling.

When every Sudirman cup final ends 3-2 with the last game ending 32-30 with a mass brawl between the opposing players and coaches.. you'll know I was right.. :-)

Not really.
The new scoring system was put in place essentially for TV and crowd viewing pleasure. Well, that's what the BWF intended.
MS is THE biggest event in Badminton that every badminton fans or general audience likes to watch. Add an all-star line-up and you get a winning combination. All the other formats don't even come close. Why do you think people request so much matches like Taufik vs Lin Dan, or Taufik vs Gade, or LCW vs LD? Yes popularity, and the need to see a match between great players.
You can't rip the soul of badminton by pleasing crowd in showing the match they've been waiting for. In fact, you're destroying badminton by not showing them.

You should also see Badminton as a business. Think of it this way: China wins 3-0, the the MS LD vs TH didn't happen, the crowd doesn't like it, the SPONSORS doesn't like it, badminton will get less popular, and less funding, players will be less payed (even though the Sudiman doesn't give players any money), there won't be any need for people to play badminton professionally because of the low winnings, and in the end, badminton dies.
Of course, that's a worst case scenario, but you can see the majority of badminton fans are disappointed that the match didn't happen. Are you?

Totally disagree with your suggestion that the other coaches can actually go against LYB. Look at LYB's behaviour during interval breaks. He's the boss! Even though he's not the direct coach, he just takes over and directs the players as he likes....

Nobody would be that stupid to challenge LYB in public, but in fact, there were several bitter arguments during inside meetings. You just don't know. It's like you always see ducks are so quiet swimming above the water, but you never see what's under the water.

...China wins 3-0, the the MS LD vs TH didn't happen, the crowd doesn't like it, the SPONSORS doesn't like it, badminton will get less popular, and less funding, players will be less payed (even though the Sudiman doesn't give players any money), ...

It is weird itself that people pay more attention in Sudirman cup than individuals tournaments.

To determine who's the best in MS, just watch any tournament at that moment, the title winner is the best in the world.

Even Lindan had beat Taufik or vice visa, there would be also not enough to say he is the best. What about Lee CW, he had never lost. What about even players in other divisions?

That's the whole point I asked at very beginning "Why Sudirman?" thread. Sudirman is not for true badminton lovers, it is purely for those patriots who just want to see their national name instead of individuals, but badminton is not a team event.

There is always politics inside badminton organization from BAM, CHinese association, PBSI....I think all of them should unite how to promote the badminton widely...at the end of theday...it will benefits the tournaments, prize money, also for players.....

We should not blame any parties as BWF should be firm with his own rules first before alllowing all team managers submit the play of orders....I think BWF should decide which game to go first...because it is the head of badminton ....BWF should not allow the draw to begin with...

We can not blame LYB as every coaches wanted their team to win badly....I wish BWF should have decided the outcome, not with the draw.....

Hope that it wont happen again in next Sudirman Cup.

It is weird itself that people pay more attention in Sudirman cup than individuals tournaments.

To determine who's the best in MS, just watch any tournament at that moment, the title winner is the best in the world.

Even Lindan had beat Taufik or vice visa, there would be also not enough to say he is the best. What about Lee CW, he had never lost. What about even players in other divisions?

That's the whole point I asked at very beginning "Why Sudirman?" thread. Sudirman is not for true badminton lovers, it is purely for those patriots who just want to see their national name instead of individuals, but badminton is not a team event.

It is not true...beside Sudirman cup, we have Thomas cup and Uber cup...even Tennis has Davis cup. Even Golf has president cup and ryder cup....are you saying that Golf and Tennis should be individuals too.

How do you decide that badminton is not TEAM event??? Badminton can be individual and Team.....period....

The key points are two:

1) to make it more interesting for people to watch;
..... 1.1 ) to prevent one-sided early ends of the competition
2) to be fair to both teams.

Having these two points in mind. I propose the new rule for deciding the order of play.

1) first match will be decided by both teams list. Two teams submit their wish-list of the order, and mark the 1st watch as 5 points, then the 2nd as 4 points, the 3rd as 3 points, the 4th as 2 points, the 5th as 1 point. Then multiply two teams results, the first match will be decided by the event with the maximum points. For example, if Indonesia wants the following order:
MS, XD, MD, WD, WS
then Indonesia writes:
MS: 5
XD: 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1
On the China side, they want WS, WD, MD, XD, MS, then China writes:
WS: 5
WD: 4
MD: 3
XD: 2
MS: 1
Then multiply two, we have:
MD: 9 points
XD: 8
WD: 8
MS: 5
WS: 5

Since the MD has the maximum points, so it will be the 1st match to play. Which is the fair result for both team.

But There are a lot of tricks to submit their orders. If Indonesia figures out China's order. Then for Indonesia, there is no hope to play MS first. But if they adjust their order as
MS: 4 instead of 5
XD: 5 instead of 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1

Then XD will be 10 points after multiplication. So it will be the first match to launch.

Anyway, even though there are tricks to play (which tests each team's wisdom), but it is still guarantee that each team can prevent the least wanted match to be played first.

2) then the 2nd match will be decided by the loser of the first match (not by the multiplication order list any more). For example, after Indonesia lost their XD, then they can decide which event to be played next. That way, we can help the weaker team to balance the fighting, which will be more interesting to the spectators and TV viewers also.

Be noted that there is no help for the players who play more than 1 event. Why the order should be good for the team having players playing more events. That's unfair. That encourages the lack of position depth. If you are short of hands, then you could protect yourself if you are smart, otherwise, you should be attacked by your opponents.

Instead of curretnly that letting the God throws the dice, and then veto God's will. The 2 sides of the competiton can fully determine the order of play through the competition of their strategy.

The ideal Sudirman final could go as:

1) XD played first, and INA lost so INA can pick the next match
2) then INA decided to play MS which is their biggest hope and taufik won
.....2.1) if Lindan won MS, then it was still INA's turn to pick the next
.....2.2) INA picked MD, and China won 3:0
3) then China decided to play WS and won
4) then INA decided to play MD but still lost. China won 3:1

So the final would include:
1) if lindan won, then XD, MS(lindan won), and MD,
2) if taufik won, then XD, MS(taufik won), WS and MD, and China won 3-1, be noted that if Taufik won, there would be WS, if Lindan won, there would be no WS.

Both China and Indoneia have nothing to complain. That's the order they ordered.

CH is definitely AFRAID to lose,even only a point.They wanna go for a perfect score,which LD ruined,and LYB wont let that happend again,even if he has to turn down ppl's expectation,by not letting LD appear.

Totally disagree with your suggestion that the other coaches can actually go against LYB. Look at LYB's behaviour during interval breaks. He's the boss! Even though he's not the direct coach, he just takes over and directs the players as he likes.
But I feel sorry for LD. First, LYB's micromanaging of his career will cost him his OG gold. Second, LD's over-confidence in himself means he has no idea how badly he's been playing.He actually believed that he lost to LCW because of LCW's good form, not because LCW has improved to actually outclass him in all depts.As for TH, he has always been lazy playing 3rd class opponents, so scores indicate nothing of his form.But as long as it's not his 3rd or 4th CONSECUTIVE match, his stamina will not be a problem.

It's hard to go against Li Yongbo espcecially when he's right. The sequence of arrangement for playing in the final was drawn and the officers did not request for the change until later when TV station and fan requested to make the final more exciting. I was too late in my opinion and why should Team China put themself into unfovarable position?
Few of the key match up did not materalize in Sudirman Cup like Lin Dan vs Taufik, Chong Wei vs Peter Gade, ... really unfortunate for fan.

Nobody would be that stupid to challenge LYB in public, but in fact, there were several bitter arguments during inside meetings. You just don't know. It's like you always see ducks are so quiet swimming above the water, but you never see what's under the water.
Sure there would be arguments (or discussions).. LYB would allow that but ultimately he calls the shots.Don't tell me they draw lots to decide.Of course , there's furious movement beneath the calm above the surface but the exposed part of the duck determines where the duck is heading.

The problem with "neutral observers", "fans' interests" etc. is that there are no representatives. How do you know what the fans want? Some fans want this, some wants that. In the end, you can't please everyone.

So, for me, the best thing is let the managers contend among themselves first, and only if there is no solution, go for a toss of coin and maybe use the mechanism you mentioned above.
Ideas are good but execution likely to be messy and time consuming.
How about TC and UC? Don't they have a fixed order of play that can only be modified according to some fixed rules? Why can't SC learn from there?
By the way, since the MS and WD didn't play, do they get the ranking points?

I think LYB is quite demanding for the Chinese player. Even thought Lin Dan lost to LCW, so what, China team won anyway. Why LYB wants China team to be perfect (5-0). Because of his loss to LCW, he is thinking of giving up Lin Dan to play in the final. What is going on his mind. I know he wants China team to be sure win in Surdiman Cup. Because he need face when return back to China after wining. He is kinds of selfish. He needs to change his altitude for being so bossy and dictator. For example, last year in December when I went to Guangzhou to see the badminton matches. Whenever the players won, they had to walk to his chair and bowed to him and for those who lost would be punished. It seems like he is a god. Tell me, Mr. LYB, how many time you had won during your badminton career. According to the records, you had not won so many. You should not put so much pressure on China team. Chen Hong is right. When he retired from China teams. He said he finds the real joy of playing badminton not just winning and winning. Now he can be more relaxed for playing badminton. I feel happy for him. As for Lin Dan, if he is not happy, he can apply to immigrate to Hong Kong and play for Hong Kong. Wang chen does not like LYB either when she played in China. I felt happy for her to win Indonesia, Asia Championship. The winnings must slap the face of LYB. The other thing I don't understand when playing Surdiman Cup. Why LYB was coaching the players instead of the coaches who does the job for every and each tournaments. Does it mean that he does not trust the rest of the coaches? I dont like his acts for being for bossy.

It's interesting to see how one sudirman cup line-up can actually generate so many suggestions about future line-ups. Anyway, this time round, i think we cannot blame LYB because in my opinion, even if lin dan is on form, the last match he would want to see being played is MS. Taufik is simply better than lin dan in terms of skill, so the chances of LD beating taufik is the lowest compared to the other matches.

Besides, commercialisation has been one of the most dangerous destroyers of sport all around the world. To please TV audiences and attract sponsors for badminton degrades the whole spirit of this game we love. I think we should not blame the organisers or the Chinese team, because be it a random order or an order selected by the team manages, it is all still badminton and a beautiful game. The TV viewers did not have the blessing of watching the showdown between taufik and lin dan, but there will be more such opportunities to come, i'm sure.

Personally, I think LYB is very "kiasu" (Scare to lose). Therefore, Singapore govt should give him SG citizenship :eek: or invite him to be SG ambassador :D

I think BWF should learn from Tennis Association how to become big in the world. There are many areas that the BWF should be improved. First, the BWF should give up the entries according to National Identity for each players and let them enter to play by individual.
With regards for the surdiman cup, they should set up a rule and not change all the time whenever they want, just be more professional.
The most important that there always people who cannot judge the call right. BWF should follow tennis where they should set up a cam and replay the point with slow motion to show the exact position fo shuttle landing and let the players has 3 chances to challenge the calls in three sets when they think the shuttle is in while the line judges call out. It avoids the things happened in Hong Kong Open 2006 where Taufik walked out of the court and accused of line judge misjudge the call. It also avoided the All China games in 2006 where the Wang chen from Hong Kong gave up playing because the chinese line judges call out when the shuttle is actually in or vice versa in order to make China team won. BWF please catch up with Tennis to make it big in the world and get more people attention. The most important, present more money prizes to the winner. This is so little when compared with Tennis.

It's interesting to see how one sudirman cup line-up can actually generate so many suggestions about future line-ups. Anyway, this time round, i think we cannot blame LYB because in my opinion, even if lin dan is on form, the last match he would want to see being played is MS. Taufik is simply better than lin dan in terms of skill, so the chances of LD beating taufik is the lowest compared to the other matches.


Hmm, i recall that LD had beaten TH in 2005 sudirman cup, in 2006 JP open, 06 HK open, and 06 asian team event. TH beat LD in 2005 WC and 2006 asian games individual event. Would this ratio be better than 50/50 and not low chances of LD beating TH?

I think LYB is quite demanding for the Chinese player. Even thought Lin Dan lost to LCW, so what, China team won anyway. Why LYB wants China team to be perfect (5-0). Because of his loss to LCW, he is thinking of giving up Lin Dan to play in the final. What is going on his mind. I know he wants China team to be sure win in Surdiman Cup. Because he need face when return back to China after wining. He is kinds of selfish. He needs to change his altitude for being so bossy and dictator. For example, last year in December when I went to Guangzhou to see the badminton matches. Whenever the players won, they had to walk to his chair and bowed to him and for those who lost would be punished. It seems like he is a god. Tell me, Mr. LYB, how many time you had won during your badminton career. According to the records, you had not won so many. You should not put so much pressure on China team. Chen Hong is right. When he retired from China teams. He said he finds the real joy of playing badminton not just winning and winning. Now he can be more relaxed for playing badminton. I feel happy for him. As for Lin Dan, if he is not happy, he can apply to immigrate to Hong Kong and play for Hong Kong. Wang chen does not like LYB either when she played in China. I felt happy for her to win Indonesia, Asia Championship. The winnings must slap the face of LYB. The other thing I don't understand when playing Surdiman Cup. Why LYB was coaching the players instead of the coaches who does the job for every and each tournaments. Does it mean that he does not trust the rest of the coaches? I dont like his acts for being for bossy.
yes, LYB is strict and bossy but then china is a communism country, and LYB has result to back up his coaching style. Maybe it is this coaching style needed in INA and MAL. I recalled malaysia players are unfocused and too lax. At one time they have to bring in military/police people to teach them discipline. Then Look at PBSI with all those little suharto's running around. Don't u think INA would perform better if they had 1 guy like LYB in control? Until u have countries that can beat LYB's soldiers, LYB's style isn't that bad.

14. ORDER OF PLAY
14.1 When nominating his/her team, the Team Manager shall recommend to the Referee a suggested order of play and, at that
time, the Referee shall decide and announce the order of play.
14.2 Any player participating in two matches is entitled to a minimum interval of 30 minutes between them.


above is the regulation for order of play.....maybe both managers wanted the MS to be the last game....if INA had won the XD, the score could have easily been 2-2....i would hav put my money on INA's LD to win....personally i would hav put taufik to play last coz he raves for the pressure games....i think it is great in the team event if you can tinker with order of play.....somtimes it wil benefit a weaker team....


in open tournaments, i knw the tournament referee will at the end of the day annouce the order of play for the next day...somtimes they wil change it due to the live broadcast....usually it will happen from the last quarters onwards....or if players dont hav enough rest in between matches.....

Random play order seems the fairest to me. If the order was fixed then this would favor certain nations whose best players appear early in the fixed draw and could then put pressure on the opposing team.

This is the best opinion given in this thread and how come no one have agreed??

I too think random draw would solve any unfairness on either side and would bring more surprises to the tournament.

Regardless of the playing order, I think we must not forgotten that SC is a team event, the TEAM that has the strongest strength deserve to win (which China does) and not the draw.

14. ORDER OF PLAY
14.1 There are eight permissible orders of play:
14.1.1 First singles - first doubles - second singles - second doubles - third singles
14.1.2 First singles - second doubles - second singles - first doubles - third singles
14.1.3 First singles - second singles - first doubles - third singles - second doubles
14.1.4 First singles - second singles - second doubles - third singles - first doubles
14.1.5 First singles - second singles - third singles - first doubles - second doubles
14.1.6 First singles - second singles - third singles - second doubles - first doubles
14.1.7 First singles - first doubles - second singles - third singles – second doubles
14.1.8 First singles - second doubles - second singles - third singles – first doubles.
14.2Determining order of play
14.2.1 Orders of play 14.1.1 to 14.1.8 will be considered in turn and the first order of play will be used which has
no player playing in two consecutive matches or playing doubles before singles.
14.2.2 If all eight orders of play, 14.1.1 to 14.1.8 result in a player playing in two consecutive matches or playing
doubles before singles, order of play 14.1.5 will be used.
14.3 Any player participating in two matches is entitled to a minimum interval of 30 minutes between them.

I think LYB is quite demanding for the Chinese player. Even thought Lin Dan lost to LCW, so what, China team won anyway. Why LYB wants China team to be perfect (5-0). Because of his loss to LCW, he is thinking of giving up Lin Dan to play in the final. What is going on his mind. I know he wants China team to be sure win in Surdiman Cup. Because he need face when return back to China after wining. He is kinds of selfish. He needs to change his altitude for being so bossy and dictator. For example, last year in December when I went to Guangzhou to see the badminton matches. Whenever the players won, they had to walk to his chair and bowed to him and for those who lost would be punished. It seems like he is a god. Tell me, Mr. LYB, how many time you had won during your badminton career. According to the records, you had not won so many. You should not put so much pressure on China team. Chen Hong is right. When he retired from China teams. He said he finds the real joy of playing badminton not just winning and winning. Now he can be more relaxed for playing badminton. I feel happy for him. As for Lin Dan, if he is not happy, he can apply to immigrate to Hong Kong and play for Hong Kong. Wang chen does not like LYB either when she played in China. I felt happy for her to win Indonesia, Asia Championship. The winnings must slap the face of LYB. The other thing I don't understand when playing Surdiman Cup. Why LYB was coaching the players instead of the coaches who does the job for every and each tournaments. Does it mean that he does not trust the rest of the coaches? I dont like his acts for being for bossy.

Well, say whatever you want to say, however, LYB has the current status of the best coach in Chinese Badminton's history. Maybe this is the way a coach means to be...

As long as he keeps up his job, he is bullet proof (from all the bad mouths)...

i don't blame LYB for not allowing the change, players have been mentally prepared for their play order and trying to change things a couple of hours can potentially affect their preparation.

Sometimes the rules is on your side, sometimes it's not. In SC2003, CHN lost to KOR 1:3 (WD did not play). I wonder if the order is WS, WD, MS, MXD, MD, then CHN might win, since KOR will be in a rather possible 0:2 (yeah, they did have Ra, but...) to even begin the match between CH vs. LHI.

Well, at least, the above final was a close match. Even if say the MS is played, and I would rather say the final score is at most 1:3, if TH does win out. It's definitely gives a bonus to the ticket holders, but does it really change the fact who's holding the cup? Mostly, no... :rolleyes:

I think LYB is quite demanding for the Chinese player. Even thought Lin Dan lost to LCW, so what, China team won anyway. Why LYB wants China team to be perfect (5-0). Because of his loss to LCW, he is thinking of giving up Lin Dan to play in the final. What is going on his mind. I know he wants China team to be sure win in Surdiman Cup. Because he need face when return back to China after wining. He is kinds of selfish. He needs to change his altitude for being so bossy and dictator. For example, last year in December when I went to Guangzhou to see the badminton matches. Whenever the players won, they had to walk to his chair and bowed to him and for those who lost would be punished. It seems like he is a god. Tell me, Mr. LYB, how many time you had won during your badminton career. According to the records, you had not won so many. You should not put so much pressure on China team. Chen Hong is right. When he retired from China teams. He said he finds the real joy of playing badminton not just winning and winning. Now he can be more relaxed for playing badminton. I feel happy for him. As for Lin Dan, if he is not happy, he can apply to immigrate to Hong Kong and play for Hong Kong. Wang chen does not like LYB either when she played in China. I felt happy for her to win Indonesia, Asia Championship. The winnings must slap the face of LYB. The other thing I don't understand when playing Surdiman Cup. Why LYB was coaching the players instead of the coaches who does the job for every and each tournaments. Does it mean that he does not trust the rest of the coaches? I dont like his acts for being for bossy.

Whether you like LYB or not, he did get his job done most of the time. It's his style of coaching, and his bosses accept it, and did get good tournament results as a feedback.

If CH really have the guts to voice his unhappiness, he should quit the team even before he's getting famous. Why he chooses to stay? Because he evaluate the overall still benefits him, and he's smart enough to stay. :cool:

Originally Posted by kwun http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=599607#post599607)

i don't blame LYB for not allowing the change, players have been mentally prepared for their play order and trying to change things a couple of hours can potentially affect their preparation.

Goodness, why is LYB getting the brunt when in the 1st place it was the unfortunate error of those in BWF. Kwun's comments make sense. In a team event, any sensible coach will look at the overall picture and play their cards well. If one of us is in LYB's shoes, would we have done any better.

There can only be one leader, be it a nation, an organisation or a family. But that is not too say, others down the line cannot voice their opinions & be respected. I may not agree with some leaders but I certainly have to recognise and respect them for their contributions - Lee Kuan Yew, Mahathir or even Mao. I see some similarities of these leaders in LYB. For the record, team Chn has won 2 TC, 2 UB & 2 SC consecutively under his leadership. A wishy-washy, spineless and short-sighted coach will not be able to do this job. I stand corrected for my opinion.

It is weird itself that people pay more attention in Sudirman cup than individuals tournaments.

To determine who's the best in MS, just watch any tournament at that moment, the title winner is the best in the world.

Even Lindan had beat Taufik or vice visa, there would be also not enough to say he is the best. What about Lee CW, he had never lost. What about even players in other divisions?

That's the whole point I asked at very beginning "Why Sudirman?" thread. Sudirman is not for true badminton lovers, it is purely for those patriots who just want to see their national name instead of individuals, but badminton is not a team event.

errmmmm... my thinking is, true badminton lovers, loves all manners of badminton. football lovers loves their clubs, but when world cup comes around, they all donned their country's colours. so i dont agree with you about not loving badminton in the purest form if i love sudirman and thomas cup. playing for your country as a team is an honor. bigger than yourself. you have to set aside your personal glory. i have always have sentimental attachment to thomas cup even when malaysia have not been a constant winner.

Ideas are good but execution likely to be messy and time consuming.
How about TC and UC? Don't they have a fixed order of play that can only be modified according to some fixed rules? Why can't SC learn from there?
By the way, since the MS and WD didn't play, do they get the ranking points?

It's different in TC and UC. We are clear about the order. We know MS1 is superior to MS2. So, there aren't much complaints if the order is (MS1, MS2, MS3, MD1, MD2) or (MS1, MD1, MS2, MD2, MS3) with some flexibility in case players are involved in two matches.

It is difficult to say in Sudirman Cup. Sometimes the XD is preferrable to MS (ENG v CHN). Sometimes, WS is more interesting (say FRA v others). Therein lies the difficulty to come up with a guideline that can satisfy everyone in every situation. Who is to say the MS is the most superior match?

If a match is not held, the players will not get ranking points. However, it is enough for a player to be involved once in a tournament (win or lose) to get reasonably high ranking points.

The key points are two:

1) to make it more interesting for people to watch;
..... 1.1 ) to prevent one-sided early ends of the competition
2) to be fair to both teams.

Having these two points in mind. I propose the new rule for deciding the order of play.

1) first match will be decided by both teams list. Two teams submit their wish-list of the order, and mark the 1st watch as 5 points, then the 2nd as 4 points, the 3rd as 3 points, the 4th as 2 points, the 5th as 1 point. Then multiply two teams results, the first match will be decided by the event with the maximum points. For example, if Indonesia wants the following order:
MS, XD, MD, WD, WS
then Indonesia writes:
MS: 5
XD: 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1
On the China side, they want WS, WD, MD, XD, MS, then China writes:
WS: 5
WD: 4
MD: 3
XD: 2
MS: 1
Then multiply two, we have:
MD: 9 points
XD: 8
WD: 8
MS: 5
WS: 5

Since the MD has the maximum points, so it will be the 1st match to play. Which is the fair result for both team.

But There are a lot of tricks to submit their orders. If Indonesia figures out China's order. Then for Indonesia, there is no hope to play MS first. But if they adjust their order as
MS: 4 instead of 5
XD: 5 instead of 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1

Then XD will be 10 points after multiplication. So it will be the first match to launch.

Anyway, even though there are tricks to play (which tests each team's wisdom), but it is still guarantee that each team can prevent the least wanted match to be played first.

2) then the 2nd match will be decided by the loser of the first match (not by the multiplication order list any more). For example, after Indonesia lost their XD, then they can decide which event to be played next. That way, we can help the weaker team to balance the fighting, which will be more interesting to the spectators and TV viewers also.

Be noted that there is no help for the players who play more than 1 event. Why the order should be good for the team having players playing more events. That's unfair. That encourages the lack of position depth. If you are short of hands, then you could protect yourself if you are smart, otherwise, you should be attacked by your opponents.

Instead of curretnly that letting the God throws the dice, and then veto God's will. The 2 sides of the competiton can fully determine the order of play through the competition of their strategy.

The ideal Sudirman final could go as:

1) XD played first, and INA lost so INA can pick the next match
2) then INA decided to play MS which is their biggest hope and taufik won
.....2.1) if Lindan won MS, then it was still INA's turn to pick the next
.....2.2) INA picked MD, and China won 3:0
3) then China decided to play WS and won
4) then INA decided to play MD but still lost. China won 3:1

So the final would include:
1) if lindan won, then XD, MS(lindan won), and MD,
2) if taufik won, then XD, MS(taufik won), WS and MD, and China won 3-1, be noted that if Taufik won, there would be WS, if Lindan won, there would be no WS.

Both China and Indoneia have nothing to complain. That's the order they ordered.

It's a well-thought proposal, but it has some flaws.

1. I think the full match order must be decided beforehand. The last thing we want to do is to disturb the players' warm-up preparations. Then, fans will have a better chance to see a good match, and players will not have excuses because everyone knows the match order beforehand.

2. Consecutive matches with the same players should be avoided, so that fans don't have to sit through 30 mins of inactivity. For instance, if CHN lost to INA in the XD, CHN could request for WD in the next match. Fans would have to wait at least 30 mins for the tie to resume, and even after that, I doubt Vita Marissa would be 100% effective.

It's an interesting exercise. I wonder if we can start a discussion thread on this to just iron out the technical details without all the emotional baggage.

ps. Why can't teams have players playing in two matches? Some teams just aren't big enough. Your rule will allow the bigger teams to bully the smaller ones. It is also important to try to have a more level playing field.

This is the best opinion given in this thread and how come no one have agreed??

I too think random draw would solve any unfairness on either side and would bring more surprises to the tournament.

Regardless of the playing order, I think we must not forgotten that SC is a team event, the TEAM that has the strongest strength deserve to win (which China does) and not the draw.
I think random draw in this instance resulted in an order of play that created a lot of dissatisfaction for TV companies, fans, etc. Badminton to grow and prosper need money - big bucks - look at e.g. golf, tennis, football. The requirements are too big even for governments to fund if one wants to see badminton on par with aforementioned sports. Money will need to come from TV and TV is interested in audience. You can't grow the sport if you don't fight for audience share. At the end, everything is a compromise. Tournament seeding is not a free draw - it recognised amongst other things good players at the end of a tournament build and sustain interest.

The referee recognised he made a mistake and I believe has apologised - he has the discretion to decide (based a previous post quoting rule book), decided on a draw, belated saw that the draw is likely to diminished audience satisfaction, tried to change things, couldn't change anything (quite right too cos rules has to be followed), somehow this got out into public domain and quite a few people blame LYB for being selfish.

LYB is Chinese coach whose primary duty is China winning (within the rules). Badminton's administrators' should look after the game (and rule book) - they have failed if the intend is to produce the best spectacle for the audience IMO and the referee has proferred an apology - quite rightly too. Live and learn.

I don't believe a draw is the best solution - the easiest mechanism and superficially fair but fails in maximising audience interest. I speak as a member of the audience.

I think BWF should learn from Tennis Association how to become big in the world. There are many areas that the BWF should be improved. First, the BWF should give up the entries according to National Identity for each players and let them enter to play by individual.


I think this quote is key - badminton really does differ from tennis in this main aspect - "National Identity". In tennis players are primarily seen as indivduals and treated as such by the fans. Fans do support their national players but the link is much weaker than it is in badminton. Tennis players choose their coaches, unlike in badminton where it mainly seems to be highly influenced by the national setup. This is shown clearly in that Davis cup and Olympics in tennis is not the most important thing (two nationalistic events).

Some people may argue that the nationalistic flavour of badminton is what they like, which is fine. Going the tennis route would probably also push the team aspects like doubles further to the sidelines, as it is in tennis, where doubles is not seen as very important.

It is fundamental changes like this rather than messing with the rules and formats of the game of badminton which will make a difference. If badminton wants to regain ground in the "West" then maybe following tennis is the way to go.

Personally, I'm worried with any attempts that try to change a game to make it more successful in media terms than another, so I'm undecided.

I think this quote is key - badminton really does differ from tennis in this main aspect - "National Identity". In tennis players are primarily seen as indivduals and treated as such by the fans. Fans do support their national players but the link is much weaker than it is in badminton. Tennis players choose their coaches, unlike in badminton where it mainly seems to be highly influenced by the national setup. This is shown clearly in that Davis cup and Olympics in tennis is not the most important thing (two nationalistic events).

Some people may argue that the nationalistic flavour of badminton is what they like, which is fine. Going the tennis route would probably also push the team aspects like doubles further to the sidelines, as it is in tennis, where doubles is not seen as very important.

It is fundamental changes like this rather than messing with the rules and formats of the game of badminton which will make a difference. If badminton wants to regain ground in the "West" then maybe following tennis is the way to go.

Personally, I'm worried with any attempts that try to change a game to make it more successful in media terms than another, so I'm undecided.

"National identity" cannot be undone by BWF. It is us fans that strongly identify a player by his nationality. Additionally, the fund going around badminton is not high and therefore it has to be state-supported.

These are factors beyong the control of BWF. I believe that BWF has already taken the first step by removing the "country separation rule" in the drawing process.

I think BWF should learn from Tennis Association how to become big in the world. There are many areas that the BWF should be improved. First, the BWF should give up the entries according to National Identity for each players and let them enter to play by individual.
With regards for the surdiman cup, they should set up a rule and not change all the time whenever they want, just be more professional.
The most important that there always people who cannot judge the call right. BWF should follow tennis where they should set up a cam and replay the point with slow motion to show the exact position fo shuttle landing and let the players has 3 chances to challenge the calls in three sets when they think the shuttle is in while the line judges call out. It avoids the things happened in Hong Kong Open 2006 where Taufik walked out of the court and accused of line judge misjudge the call. It also avoided the All China games in 2006 where the Wang chen from Hong Kong gave up playing because the chinese line judges call out when the shuttle is actually in or vice versa in order to make China team won. BWF please catch up with Tennis to make it big in the world and get more people attention. The most important, present more money prizes to the winner. This is so little when compared with Tennis.

Tennis is way ahead of badminton in many aspects such as prize money, camera replay system, match statistics, TV coverage etc.

Talking about prize money, Wimbledon 2007 for 5 events totaled to £11,282,710 while All England 2007 amounted to only USD200,000. Prize money in Tennis, Wimbledon (http://aeltc.wimbledon.org/en_GB/about/history/prizemoney_history.html), for instance, keeps on increasing every year. Look at All England, for example, it has remained unchanged in the past ten years in prize money. I think that's the main reason why badminton is less popular than tennis in countries outside Asia.

Instant replay system (http://english.people.com.cn/200610/19/eng20061019_313414.html) has been implemented in gymnastics and has made judging more transparent. The Hawk-Eye replay system (http://www.sportsline.com/tennis/story/10225820) has made its debut in tennis since last US Open. When will badminton follow suit?

Match statistics in tennis is more informative and comprehensive than those in badminton. We don't see the fastest smash and the longest rally being recorded in badminton's match statistics, do we?

In terms of TV coverage, tennis has it broadcasted thru TV on all the Grand Slams and other master series since round 1 till the finals. Tennis even has the tournament previews such as Legends of Wimbledon, Wimbledon Classic and so on. Badminton, on the other hand, only has it broadcasted quarterfinals onwards on major tournaments such as All England and World Championship.

There are a lot more that BWF has to do in order to prevent badminton from being removed from Olympics in the future.

This is the best opinion given in this thread and how come no one have agreed??

I too think random draw would solve any unfairness on either side and would bring more surprises to the tournament.

Regardless of the playing order, I think we must not forgotten that SC is a team event, the TEAM that has the strongest strength deserve to win (which China does) and not the draw.
Did the random draw for the SC final bring more surprises to the tournament? CHN is expected to win even if MS were played first. Ask any fan what they look forward to most and chances are the answer would be the LD-TH clash because it does not happen often in SS and TEAM tournaments are about the only opportunities to have these two meet. Already LCW-TH and LCW-PG matches did not materialise and that is bad enough.The only consolation is the LCW-LD match.
Randomness is fairest but may not deliver the sparkle. As we know,that resulted in disappointment to most fans in this SC. The real measure of a tournament's success is the quality of its best matches and we know that is likely to come from the top MS because the kind of badminton they play is out of this world.

The following is the regulation for Thomas and Uber Cups. Note the importance placed on S1 and S2 (S1 is always the first match, and S2 is at the least the 3rd match). Singles must also be played in order while for doubles, the second pair can play before the first. Also, if a player is involved in two matches, he/she must play the singles match first.

14. ORDER OF PLAY
14.1 There are eight permissible orders of play:
14.1.1 First singles - first doubles - second singles - second doubles - third singles
14.1.2 First singles - second doubles - second singles - first doubles - third singles
14.1.3 First singles - second singles - first doubles - third singles - second doubles
14.1.4 First singles - second singles - second doubles - third singles - first doubles
14.1.5 First singles - second singles - third singles - first doubles - second doubles
14.1.6 First singles - second singles - third singles - second doubles - first doubles
14.1.7 First singles - first doubles - second singles - third singles – second doubles
14.1.8 First singles - second doubles - second singles - third singles – first doubles.
14.2Determining order of play
14.2.1 Orders of play 14.1.1 to 14.1.8 will be considered in turn and the first order of play will be used which has
no player playing in two consecutive matches or playing doubles before singles.
14.2.2 If all eight orders of play, 14.1.1 to 14.1.8 result in a player playing in two consecutive matches or playing
doubles before singles, order of play 14.1.5 will be used.
14.3 Any player participating in two matches is entitled to a minimum interval of 30 minutes between them.

Did the random draw for the SC final bring more surprises to the tournament? CHN is expected to win even if MS were played first. Ask any fan what they look forward to most and chances are the answer would be the LD-TH clash because it does not happen often in SS and TEAM tournaments are about the only opportunities to have these two meet. Already LCW-TH and LCW-PG matches did not materialise and that is bad enough.The only consolation is the LCW-LD match.
Randomness is fairest but may not deliver the sparkle. As we know,that resulted in disappointment to most fans in this SC. The real measure of a tournament's success is the quality of its best matches and we know that is likely to come from the top MS because the kind of badminton they play is out of this world.

Either it's a random draw, or the team managers agree on the order. How else would you decide the order? If the tournament director decides on the order, accusations can fly. Even though theorectically the match order is inconsequential, but psychologically, it can make a difference.

The key points are two:

1) to make it more interesting for people to watch;
..... 1.1 ) to prevent one-sided early ends of the competition
2) to be fair to both teams.

Having these two points in mind. I propose the new rule for deciding the order of play.

1) first match will be decided by both teams list. Two teams submit their wish-list of the order, and mark the 1st watch as 5 points, then the 2nd as 4 points, the 3rd as 3 points, the 4th as 2 points, the 5th as 1 point. Then multiply two teams results, the first match will be decided by the event with the maximum points. For example, if Indonesia wants the following order:
MS, XD, MD, WD, WS
then Indonesia writes:
MS: 5
XD: 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1
On the China side, they want WS, WD, MD, XD, MS, then China writes:
WS: 5
WD: 4
MD: 3
XD: 2
MS: 1
Then multiply two, we have:
MD: 9 points
XD: 8
WD: 8
MS: 5
WS: 5

Since the MD has the maximum points, so it will be the 1st match to play. Which is the fair result for both team.

But There are a lot of tricks to submit their orders. If Indonesia figures out China's order. Then for Indonesia, there is no hope to play MS first. But if they adjust their order as
MS: 4 instead of 5
XD: 5 instead of 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1

Then XD will be 10 points after multiplication. So it will be the first match to launch.

Anyway, even though there are tricks to play (which tests each team's wisdom), but it is still guarantee that each team can prevent the least wanted match to be played first.

2) then the 2nd match will be decided by the loser of the first match (not by the multiplication order list any more). For example, after Indonesia lost their XD, then they can decide which event to be played next. That way, we can help the weaker team to balance the fighting, which will be more interesting to the spectators and TV viewers also.

Be noted that there is no help for the players who play more than 1 event. Why the order should be good for the team having players playing more events. That's unfair. That encourages the lack of position depth. If you are short of hands, then you could protect yourself if you are smart, otherwise, you should be attacked by your opponents.

Instead of curretnly that letting the God throws the dice, and then veto God's will. The 2 sides of the competiton can fully determine the order of play through the competition of their strategy.

The ideal Sudirman final could go as:

1) XD played first, and INA lost so INA can pick the next match
2) then INA decided to play MS which is their biggest hope and taufik won
.....2.1) if Lindan won MS, then it was still INA's turn to pick the next
.....2.2) INA picked MD, and China won 3:0
3) then China decided to play WS and won
4) then INA decided to play MD but still lost. China won 3:1

So the final would include:
1) if lindan won, then XD, MS(lindan won), and MD,
2) if taufik won, then XD, MS(taufik won), WS and MD, and China won 3-1, be noted that if Taufik won, there would be WS, if Lindan won, there would be no WS.

Both China and Indoneia have nothing to complain. That's the order they ordered.

Theoriotically it works. But that's not the way professional games played.
Hours before the game, players should be prepared from their diet to their warm-ups strictly according to the schedule. Getting into the mood too early or too late? Sorry, you are dead unless you are fighting amateurs.
The worst case under your game rule would be a continuously warming-up LD or TH up to 3~4 hours! Imagine that.

They had this stupid rule whereby order of play is determined by draw. So the 5 matches are drawn one by one from a box, MS happened to be last.

Previously, each team manager can suggest an order of play, and the finalized one will be determined based on whether a team has players who play more than one match, so that the player can have sufficient rest in between matches.


It is still like that. When team managers give the names of the players, they also suggest the order of play. If there is disagreement, then is the draw. So it just happened that MS should be last.

The key points are two:

1) to make it more interesting for people to watch;
..... 1.1 ) to prevent one-sided early ends of the competition
2) to be fair to both teams.

Having these two points in mind. I propose the new rule for deciding the order of play.

1) first match will be decided by both teams list. Two teams submit their wish-list of the order, and mark the 1st watch as 5 points, then the 2nd as 4 points, the 3rd as 3 points, the 4th as 2 points, the 5th as 1 point. Then multiply two teams results, the first match will be decided by the event with the maximum points. For example, if Indonesia wants the following order:
MS, XD, MD, WD, WS
then Indonesia writes:
MS: 5
XD: 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1
On the China side, they want WS, WD, MD, XD, MS, then China writes:
WS: 5
WD: 4
MD: 3
XD: 2
MS: 1
Then multiply two, we have:
MD: 9 points
XD: 8
WD: 8
MS: 5
WS: 5

Since the MD has the maximum points, so it will be the 1st match to play. Which is the fair result for both team.

But There are a lot of tricks to submit their orders. If Indonesia figures out China's order. Then for Indonesia, there is no hope to play MS first. But if they adjust their order as
MS: 4 instead of 5
XD: 5 instead of 4
MD: 3
WD: 2
WS: 1

Then XD will be 10 points after multiplication. So it will be the first match to launch.

Anyway, even though there are tricks to play (which tests each team's wisdom), but it is still guarantee that each team can prevent the least wanted match to be played first.

2) then the 2nd match will be decided by the loser of the first match (not by the multiplication order list any more). For example, after Indonesia lost their XD, then they can decide which event to be played next. That way, we can help the weaker team to balance the fighting, which will be more interesting to the spectators and TV viewers also.

Be noted that there is no help for the players who play more than 1 event. Why the order should be good for the team having players playing more events. That's unfair. That encourages the lack of position depth. If you are short of hands, then you could protect yourself if you are smart, otherwise, you should be attacked by your opponents.

Instead of curretnly that letting the God throws the dice, and then veto God's will. The 2 sides of the competiton can fully determine the order of play through the competition of their strategy.

The ideal Sudirman final could go as:

1) XD played first, and INA lost so INA can pick the next match
2) then INA decided to play MS which is their biggest hope and taufik won
.....2.1) if Lindan won MS, then it was still INA's turn to pick the next
.....2.2) INA picked MD, and China won 3:0
3) then China decided to play WS and won
4) then INA decided to play MD but still lost. China won 3:1

So the final would include:
1) if lindan won, then XD, MS(lindan won), and MD,
2) if taufik won, then XD, MS(taufik won), WS and MD, and China won 3-1, be noted that if Taufik won, there would be WS, if Lindan won, there would be no WS.

Both China and Indoneia have nothing to complain. That's the order they ordered.

The problem is with tv planning. They would never go for coverage without actually knowing who and when is going to play. Mostly it is their decision which court/which match they are going to televise. So quite often in the hall it is necessary to move ties or matches from court to court just because tv. And we can again speak - is it fair to other nations ? Some matches from lower divisions were actually more interesting than one sided matches of top group.

"National identity" cannot be undone by BWF. It is us fans that strongly identify a player by his nationality. Additionally, the fund going around badminton is not high and therefore it has to be state-supported.

These are factors beyong the control of BWF. I believe that BWF has already taken the first step by removing the "country separation rule" in the drawing process.

the solution then is to "somehow" increase the price money. if badminton tournament has US$1mil+ prize money, we will very soon see a lot of motivated independent players into the badminton scene, and potentially see the beginning of the end of state-base training.

but as you see, i have to put a quote around the "somehow", much easier said than done.

Did the random draw for the SC final bring more surprises to the tournament? CHN is expected to win even if MS were played first. Ask any fan what they look forward to most and chances are the answer would be the LD-TH clash because it does not happen often in SS and TEAM tournaments are about the only opportunities to have these two meet. Already LCW-TH and LCW-PG matches did not materialise and that is bad enough.The only consolation is the LCW-LD match.
Randomness is fairest but may not deliver the sparkle. As we know,that resulted in disappointment to most fans in this SC. The real measure of a tournament's success is the quality of its best matches and we know that is likely to come from the top MS because the kind of badminton they play is out of this world.

Fans pay ticket to go to watch a sport tournament and not a movie, hint that in the individual event we don't even know who are the finalists until the day before, why should we make exception to the team event to pre-order matches to please fans???

I wouldn't allow this to happen too if I am LYB, and to eliminate that slim chance for Indo to win, cause LYB's task is simply to win the tournament and nothing else. But if TH did beat LD in the first match who knows what would happen to the Chinese and Indo team's morale, and that certainly can bring surprises. That's why I suggest random draw and I think that is most fair for teams and fans.

I call you cry babies ;)

I can understand that some (most) would want to see a LD vs Taufik clash.
But for the tournament, honor and glory of Sudirman do you think a WS as a decider would've been better? If playing MS earlier anyone could've won a spectacular match that in the end meant nothing for the championship.....

Now I think the draw was quite good for INA and the spectators. *If* INA had managed to get two points (from XD and MD) then there would've been the titans sealing the whole championship.

This is how i would rank the chances in a decider:
WS and WD, barring injury, secure win for China. XD and MD, open for upsets but given expected strength and recent forms China as clear favourites. MS, usually pretty much an even game, but due to displayed performance during SC I think most would hold Taufik as favourite.

Of course the dream draw for INA would've been 1) MD/XD 2) XD/MD 3) MS . With a very small but still possible chance to get a 3-0 win. But as soon as they lose one of this three it is all over.....and then everyone would be complaining about boring and meaningless finish with China destroying INA in WD and WS :D

I think LYB is quite demanding for the Chinese player. Even thought Lin Dan lost to LCW, so what, China team won anyway. Why LYB wants China team to be perfect (5-0). Because of his loss to LCW, he is thinking of giving up Lin Dan to play in the final. What is going on his mind. I know he wants China team to be sure win in Surdiman Cup. Because he need face when return back to China after wining. He is kinds of selfish. He needs to change his altitude for being so bossy and dictator. For example, last year in December when I went to Guangzhou to see the badminton matches. Whenever the players won, they had to walk to his chair and bowed to him and for those who lost would be punished. It seems like he is a god. Tell me, Mr. LYB, how many time you had won during your badminton career. According to the records, you had not won so many. You should not put so much pressure on China team. Chen Hong is right. When he retired from China teams. He said he finds the real joy of playing badminton not just winning and winning. Now he can be more relaxed for playing badminton. I feel happy for him. As for Lin Dan, if he is not happy, he can apply to immigrate to Hong Kong and play for Hong Kong. Wang chen does not like LYB either when she played in China. I felt happy for her to win Indonesia, Asia Championship. The winnings must slap the face of LYB. The other thing I don't understand when playing Surdiman Cup. Why LYB was coaching the players instead of the coaches who does the job for every and each tournaments. Does it mean that he does not trust the rest of the coaches? I dont like his acts for being for bossy.

Well Terrence, first off please don't take any offense in what I have to say. These are just my thoughts. But When you talk about bowing and punishment, I believe that was the traditional way that students were taught in China. To respect your teachers and elders. Punishment is more of a motivation in my opinion. Your there to be the best and learn. And thus if you can't handle the pressure, then there's really no point in you being in the Chinese team. Attaining a high standard is what the goal is. If you don't win, then your pretty much forced to reflect on it. which is the purpose of punishment. And really, these players are receiving training from some of the best coaches out there. Bowing down to them, is a sign of respect and not slavery. If there isn't respect between the coach and the player, then the coach can care less about the player. But if the player respects the coach and vice versa. Then they'll work hard TOGETHER, in order to attain their goals.

Lin Dan tries hard and respects his coaches. And that's probably part of why there was such a dispute. Lin Dan, get to play all these matches, but what about all the other team members who train hard. Shouldn't they get a chance? If Lin Dan isn't performing, then isn't this a chance to give to others the opportunity? It can be quite heart quenching for coaches.

Being able to listen to criticism is a virtue. Not many people can take it in because it's pretty much saying "you suck". But it is also saying here's a fault now what are you going to do about it? The hard part about criticism is that people often use a harsh tone with it as well, but that's life. And I think that's what the Chinese players do. They listen and take in the criticism, despite the tone. They keep learning from their mistakes even if they win. And your right ! winning isn't everything, learning from what happened and acting upon is also quite significant.

On a different point, Chen Hong got his training from the Chinese coaching staff. though he can relax and play the way he wants, he no longer does the kind of training he did in the Chinese Camp. And thus, I think the results are quite obvious. Though he may have the mental side of his game, he doesn't have the same physical side he did in the past. And if he doesn't have much physical to work with then his options will be limited as well. And so you can't really say Chen Hong is better off the way he is. You can say he's happier and that's great don't get me wrong. But in terms of results, you might see him spike here and there but that depends how he prepares.

Lin Dan doesn't look too happy

He looks like that in all tournament...I never expect this guy to even moved his mouth even a couple of mm...he looks like a vampire even when he is lifting a champion trophy....I think he should be coached to smile....