Hawk Eye system, anyone?

[markchan]

Just watched the LD vs LCW match. Some of the calls were really close and it might have turned the match in one way or another. It is very strange that the chair umpire over-ruled a baseline call by the line judge as it would be hard to judge from where he is sitting. Normally they over-rule when it is a sideline shot (on his side).

Thus, would badminton follow some of the other sports, tennis , being the recent one, to use the Hawk eye system. They can follow like Wimbeldon where a player,say,is only allowed 3 chanllenges per set.

[Slicedbanana07]

I'm not sure. The hawkeye isn't 100% anyway. It's just a simulation based on video footage and measurements during a period of time/ rally. For sports like tennis and cricket, it's easier to implement as the pace is slower than badminton. But it could be featured.

[madbad]

How much does a Hawkeye machine cost? There'll need to be a minimum of 4 per court–2 on the baselines and 2 on the sidelines. On average there are 4 courts in play at the arena. So that makes 16 machines minimum. I guess the question is whether BWF considers getting these machines (x16) worthwhile

[silentheart]

This topic has been discussed before and the prob is shuttle is not a ball, the speed is too fast and decelerate too fast. Also the player is in the court most of the time. Margin of error is higher than human eyes.

[twobeer]

This topic has been discussed before and the prob is shuttle is not a ball, the speed is too fast and decelerate too fast. Also the player is in the court most of the time. Margin of error is higher than human eyes.

No way!!

A high-speed camera will be superior to the human eye.. No question about that!!!.. (there is a reason for having goal-photos in track&field, horse-races etc)..

120fps is much much more than what your eye can handle :-)

Just the reruns from std. cameras at WC etc clearly showes that line-judges frequently make misstakes... I think strategically plased cameras running at high-speed could be beneficial..Especially with the 21 point systms where a few line-calls may make the difference between winning and loosing a tight match.

/Twobeer

[markchan]

I agree with 2beer, maybe if hawkeye not feasible, then at least the use of high speed cameras wud be a cheaper alternative.
And yes, in a tight 21 pt rally game, 2 wrong calls could mean winning and losing OR a player walking out ..... :D:D

[Green72(CAN)]

If anyone has watched hockey, you know that they don't rely on the referees' calls when the referees are unsure.

They use cameras from many different angles to confirm what actually happened rather than what referees or judges THINK has happened.

I think this is a very feasible thing to do. I've seen some bad line calls that could have easily been overruled if the umpire or someone just watched the slow motion. Instead of that, the rally is usually lost by the player who has won.

I don't know what's holding the badminton sport back from doing something that hockey does.

[madbad]

If anyone has watched hockey, you know that they don't rely on the referees' calls when the referees are unsure.

They use cameras from many different angles to confirm what actually happened rather than what referees or judges THINK has happened.

I think this is a very feasible thing to do. I've seen some bad line calls that could have easily been overruled if the umpire or someone just watched the slow motion. Instead of that, the rally is usually lost by the player who has won.

I don't know what's holding the badminton sport back from doing something that hockey does.

......$$ MONEY! $$......

[drifit]

......$$ MONEY! $$......
true also... money is the matter
why not suggest to place 3 linesman per line? majority wins!! yeahhhh:rolleyes:
sometimes are more fun to watch human touch in games, not relying on gadgets. badminton court is much smaller than tennis court, thus, the necessary of hawk eye is not appreciated. high camera might be more considerable......:D

[chickenpoodle]

the problem isn't the matter of technology. its the problem of PEOPLE.

we have tv-replays, we see it lots every game of every match, watching the shuttle dribble over the net and land slightly out, or have it land on the edge of baseline, etc...
if the umpire had access to these replays, VOILA! the problem would be solved. and they wouldn't have to spend a single dime on extra cameras and sensor technologies.

[twobeer]

the problem isn't the matter of technology. its the problem of PEOPLE.

we have tv-replays, we see it lots every game of every match, watching the shuttle dribble over the net and land slightly out, or have it land on the edge of baseline, etc...
if the umpire had access to these replays, VOILA! the problem would be solved. and they wouldn't have to spend a single dime on extra cameras and sensor technologies.

Agree.. But adding some high-speed cameras that BWF supplies and moves between the Super-series tournament, wouldn't be a staggering cost as I see it (and more accurate :-) )..

If I where to dream on high-speed cameras could also be used for replays of netkills, defending and smashes (in conjunction with the smash-speed measurement, for som exiting slow motion reruns on TV, to make the game more presentable as well!!!

/Twobeer

[Slicedbanana07]

How do you have 3 lines man per line!? :eek:


true also... money is the matter
why not suggest to place 3 linesman per line? majority wins!! yeahhhh:rolleyes:
sometimes are more fun to watch human touch in games, not relying on gadgets. badminton court is much smaller than tennis court, thus, the necessary of hawk eye is not appreciated. high camera might be more considerable......:D

[drifit]

How do you have 3 lines man per line!? :eek:

hm... use imagination, sit on staircase type of chair...:D
mistake: high speed camera, not high camera...:o

[Mark A]

the problem isn't the matter of technology. its the problem of PEOPLE.

we have tv-replays, we see it lots every game of every match, watching the shuttle dribble over the net and land slightly out, or have it land on the edge of baseline, etc...
if the umpire had access to these replays, VOILA! the problem would be solved. and they wouldn't have to spend a single dime on extra cameras and sensor technologies.

This type of attitude could benefit SO many sports! Badminton is intrinsically stop/start and, unlike tennis, the player's don't hit the shuttle after a close line bounce, so studying slo-mo replays is much less disruptive.

This year's Wimbledon introduced a "challenge" system, whereby a player can argue a dodgy line call and Hawkeye will settle the matter. If their challenge is correct, they retain their remaining challenges and if not, they lose one (having started with 5 possible challenges).

This would be PERFECT for badminton AND Hawkeye wouldn't be needed, as the ultra slow replays always make it clear whether the shuttle was in or out. Equipping an umpire's chair with a little TV monitor would cost next to nothing, as well!

[SystemicAnomaly]

I'm not sure. The hawkeye isn't 100% anyway. It's just a simulation based on video footage and measurements during a period of time/ rally. For sports like tennis and cricket, it's easier to implement as the pace is slower than badminton. But it could be featured.

While HawkEye isn't 100%, it's pretty damn close. Just a few years ago, its accuracy for tennis was inadequate -- its calculated trajectories could be off by several cm or more. However, within the past year or 2 they've got it down to within 3mm. The improvements were due primarily to 2 factors. They increased the the number of (very) high-speed cameras from 6 up to 10. They also significantly improved the algorithms in the software used to track the ball & calculate its trajectory. There may have been some calibration improvements as well.

Roger Federer may well have been justified in his criticism of some of the HawkEye-based decisions made during the final at Wimbledon this year. A number of those questioned calls appeared to be within that 3mm margin of error. However, a vast majority of questioned calls for most monitored matches are not quite that close -- they often reveal that the ball was out by several cm -- well within HawkEye's capability for making a correct call.

Granted, badminton shuttle speeds coming off the racket on fast shots are often 30-40% faster than initial tennis ball speeds. However, shuttles decelerate much more quickly than tennis balls. The pre-bounce speed of a tennis serve if something on the order of 70-75% of its initial speed. On other tennis shots, the speed just prior to the bounce may be somewhat less than this percentage. I suspect that a badminton shuttle usually hits the floor at a speed that is considerably less than half of its initial speed -- due to the much greater drag (air resistance) for a shuttle than for a tennis ball.

The software algorithms for HawkEye would undoubtedly need to be modified to accurately calculate badminton trajectories. However, given the speed differences I've mentioned, I see no reason why this technology could not be adapted for badminton.

Yes, the HawkEye system is quite expensive. For a single tennis court, it requires 10 (expensive) high-speed cameras, sophisticated software, and a battery of high-speed computers (I believe that I saw at least 8 computers in the HawkEye booth for a professional tournament at Stanford).

I believe that you would still need a similar number of high-speed cameras for badminton to ensure that you have multiple unobstructed views in order to faithfully interpolate/calculate the trajectory of a badminton shuttle.
.

[markchan]

Thanks, SystemicAnomaly. That was an insightful post. Perhaps, with all things electronics, the cost will come down later and the BWF can start to introduce this, if not, then other electronic assistance to ensure accuracy of line calls in the future.

[chickenpoodle]

This type of attitude could benefit SO many sports! Badminton is intrinsically stop/start and, unlike tennis, the player's don't hit the shuttle after a close line bounce, so studying slo-mo replays is much less disruptive.

This would be PERFECT for badminton AND Hawkeye wouldn't be needed, as the ultra slow replays always make it clear whether the shuttle was in or out. Equipping an umpire's chair with a little TV monitor would cost next to nothing, as well!

the thing is, the umpire at the big tourneys (OG, AE, WC, etc) all have computers to register every shot, lets, faults, errors, smash winners, net shot, the list goes on. now we see this even more prevelant with the super series!

its not very difficult to have his screen jacked into the live TV feed as well.

the biggest problem with bad calls is that frequency of the bad calls.
in a game, if i feel theres bad calls 1/10 times, thats horrible, seeing how few rallies there are nowadays with the new scoring system.

if bad calls existed 1/50 times, maybe i wouldn't care so much, and neither would taufik or lin dan...

and if the live feed and tv replays were available, (umpire wouldn't even need to press a button, just an extra screen perhaps) we can significantly reduce the occurance of accepted bad calls.

[Green72(CAN)]

I just find it a bit silly when there are dozens of cameras capable of showing accurately whether the shuttle has landed in or not around court and none of them are being used to review line calls.

[Cloggerz]

hawk eye is soooooooooooooooooooooooo expensive and a poor sport like badderz could never afford it without serious drops in the prise money and the players wouldnt like that would they, now rich games like tennis can have it lol

[Cloggerz]

it is a good thing tho and does help line judges make crucial decisions in crucial situations,,

[drifit]

poor sports? badminton is poor sports? a 85grammes badminton racquet is more expensive than 300grammes tennis racquet.

[Natrificial]

just add 1 free challenge per game per player using the normal camera slow-mo... how hard is that... they waste more time scrubing the floors

[chickenpoodle]

poor sports? badminton is poor sports? a 85grammes badminton racquet is more expensive than 300grammes tennis racquet.
while racquet prices between badminton and tennis is comparable.
i'd wager that theres more expensive specialized tennis racquets than there is badminton.

theres more customization done in the realm of racquet production for tennis players than there is in badminton.

professional players in badminton use OEM equipment, meaning everything they use, you can buy right off the shelves at a store.

tennis is sponsored, endorsed, and supported by a huge network of individuals and companies.
badminton is fledgling, barely scraping by tournament to tournament.
the prize money at one big tournament for one event for tennis equals that of the entire prize money purse for a few badminton tournaments.

that is what people mean by saying tennis is a "rich" sport, while badminton is "poor"

rich people play badminton and tennis jsut like how poor people can play too.

[Green72(CAN)]

Perhaps the hawkeye system is overkill for badminton... reviewing replays is so much simpler. The human eye can tell pretty accurately if the shuttle dropped in or out after looking at the slow motion :P

[twobeer]

Perhaps the hawkeye system is overkill for badminton... reviewing replays is so much simpler. The human eye can tell pretty accurately if the shuttle dropped in or out after looking at the slow motion :P

If you are ONLY talking about baseline-calls, then Yes.. but Smashes on or close to the sidelines can be very tricky to see from angled cameras slo-mo...

/T

[chickenpoodle]

If you are ONLY talking about baseline-calls, then Yes.. but Smashes on or close to the sidelines can be very tricky to see from angled cameras slo-mo...

/T

fortunately we currently have a couple over-head cams at most tournaments that are run along the trams, do we not? :)

[madbad]

What you are forgetting is that only the TV court is camera equipped. BWF would have to equip all courts (generally 4) if they were to implement the "replay/challenge" rule

[twobeer]

What you are forgetting is that only the TV court is camera equipped. BWF would have to equip all courts (generally 4) if they were to implement the "replay/challenge" rule

I think more cameras (especially high-speed ones) would be great addition to the sport.. The investment would not be staggering (they could be used at all BWF tournaments), and besides the benefit of making the game more fair, it would be able to make for great reruns, faster cuts and more action when presenting the game for a TV-audience imop.

/T

[drifit]

I think more cameras (especially high-speed ones) would be great addition to the sport.. The investment would not be staggering (they could be used at all BWF tournaments), and besides the benefit of making the game more fair, it would be able to make for great reruns, faster cuts and more action when presenting the game for a TV-audience imop.

/T

very good suggestion. if the tv's camera can help out on this, much better...:D

[coops241180]

after the korean open debacle i thought i'd reopen this one..

after reading thru the posts something came to mind... while we see the action replays almost instantaneously i'm under the impression that these replays are managed by a team of people in the background. they cue up the video replay for the main screen... obviously if you've got one of these camera's to replace each line judge (perhaps more because some lines could be too long to resolve sharply enough) thats a lot of people to watch.. and then if you multiply this by the number of courts playing your start running into problems...

i think the tennis circuit only allows the challenge system on later rounds (less courts obviously) perhaps this could be the way to do it for badminton, perhaps introduced at tournaments that are televised (so tournaments like the SS)

but it will still come down to $$$$'s :S

[GunBlade008]

Placing cameras at the courts is inexpensive and a much more feasible and easy alternative to implement.

[madbad]

Placing cameras at the courts is inexpensive and a much more feasible and easy alternative to implement.

I think we're getting there.

Having gone through many threads ad nauseum and reading BC member's thoughts/suggestions, I believe the challenge system on TV replay would be the most feasible. I think the NFL style challenge probably works better at this point where ONLY the umpire talks to the TV replay people directly and views all the necessary angles. 2 challenges per game (ie 4 or 6 per match), regardless of correctness of call, to keep interruptions to a minimum. The extra expense would be to set up TV cameras on all 4 courts from several vantage points. The BWF would have to set water tight rules for challenges and the rulings must be accepted unequivocally. There must be NO DISSENT after a challenge ruling, otherwise the system would be rendered useless. (watch the clowns at BWF bugger this up royally :rolleyes::D)

It's a start anyway, and certainly a more affordable alternative to implementing hawkeye. That said, what's considered affordable to cash strapped BWF?:rolleyes:

[Loopy]

You'll need at minimum 4 cameras, at maximum 10 cameras to cover all angles. In official BWF matches, they put somewhere from 3 to 8 linesmen, depending on the match. Generally, from QF to finals, they put all the linesmen there.
You can use an inexpensive small camera like a CCTV surveillance camera. Just put them on the ground, and that's it. Record the footage and when a player challenge, just instant replay. CCTV cameras aren't expensive, for 50$ each, and considering you'll need only 6 cams per court, for two courts, that's 600$ investment which is well worth it.

Here is a diagram of the maximum number of cameras, but you can use much less, since most controversial calls come from the side and back lines, not the midlines.

[coops241180]

one problem with action replay camera's... players foot in the way of the camera?

if the line is called 'unseen' the point is played again - this would allow a 'dishonest' player an advantage - if the shuttle landed near the line he could get between the linejudge and the camera. once the umpire called for replay he wouldn't be able to call it either and the point would be replayed..

this would be ideal for shots left at the back ie, flick serves.

we also have to consider the amount of time it takes to use these replays - if you have 10 camera's it could take some time to cue up the exact fractions of a second that the shuttle landed in - not something the umpire wants to waste time doing, so you need a backroom staff to manage the replays so that they could be available at short notice..

tennis manages this by having the hawkeye system - a combination of 3d modelling and camera's built into the individual venues (at substantial cost i'd imagine) and then using the machine to decide what to show.

this doesn't work for badminton because the shuttle is an irregular shape and difficult for the computer to resolve against the rest of the image..

on top of that it's rare to get courts in arena's on their own apart from on finals day.. and then the mounts for the camera's would end up between the crowd and the court.. not ideal.

i fear there is no really satisfactory solution to this problem until software that can resolve the shuttle in 99.9% of cases is developed.. anyone fancy a project?

Coops

[vching]

The recent unfortunate incident involving Badminton Men's Singles World Number 1 Lin Dan's outburst in Seoul clearly signals for a change in the Badminton World Federation's (BWF) adjudication system. The allegedly biased line calls, that subsequently caused much controversy in the badminton community obviously needs to be addressed to suite the growing demands for accountability and fairplay from not only the player, but badminton fans worldwide.

Understanding that the BWF has limited funds and resources, as this has been the reason given by the BWF for not wanting to install the immensely popular 'Hawkeye' system, the solution might lie in using and manipulating existing technology. Taking a leaf out of the sport of Cricket, which have implemented the 'Third Umpire' adjudicating system, where a disputed line call can be reviewed by another umpire by using video replays, the BWF can easily modify the existing technology to improve the adjudication system. If viewers in front of the television watching the badminton broadcast can clearly see whether the shuttlecock landed 'in' or 'out', it shouldn't be an overly tedious task for another umpire to do so.

Additionally, the BWF can follow what the Tennis Authorities have done, which is to give each player a set amount of incorrect challenges. The fine details, I am sure can be easily implemented and decided by the BWF.


Full article: The Badminton Blog - A Solution? (http://thebadmintonblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/solution.html)

ps: I plan to send this letter to The Star newspaper editor tomorrow. Any comment is largely appreciated.

[eaglehelang]

The recent unfortunate incident involving Badminton Men's Singles World Number 1 Lin Dan's outburst in Seoul clearly signals for a change in the Badminton World Federation's (BWF) adjudication system. The allegedly biased line calls, that subsequently caused much controversy in the badminton community obviously needs to be addressed to suite the growing demands for accountability and fairplay from not only the player, but badminton fans worldwide.

Understanding that the BWF has limited funds and resources, as this has been the reason given by the BWF for not wanting to install the immensely popular 'Hawkeye' system, the solution might lie in using and manipulating existing technology. Taking a leaf out of the sport of Cricket, which have implemented the 'Third Umpire' adjudicating system, where a disputed line call can be reviewed by another umpire by using video replays, the BWF can easily modify the existing technology to improve the adjudication system. If viewers in front of the television watching the badminton broadcast can clearly see whether the shuttlecock landed 'in' or 'out', it shouldn't be an overly tedious task for another umpire to do so.

Additionally, the BWF can follow what the Tennis Authorities have done, which is to give each player a set amount of incorrect challenges. The fine details, I am sure can be easily implemented and decided by the BWF.


Full article: The Badminton Blog - A Solution? (http://thebadmintonblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/solution.html)

ps: I plan to send this letter to The Star newspaper editor tomorrow. Any comment is largely appreciated.

NST already commented along similar lines. Take a look at their points & see if you want to add any :
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Tuesday/Sport/2144325/Article/index_html

[vching]

I am suggesting that they use existing technology. If you suggest them to use Hawkeye, they will just say tht they don't have enough funds etc etc.

[takeshi]

I suggest playing at Papua New Guinea, Mauritius, or some neutral country.

Or sack IBF president & top management for not doing their job.

Taufik already complain about that long time ago, but no action taken by IBF.

[madbad]

There is an existing post for this subject, isn't there? Should merge with it.

[Loopy]

one problem with action replay camera's... players foot in the way of the camera?
if the line is called 'unseen' the point is played again - this would allow a 'dishonest' player an advantage - if the shuttle landed near the line he could get between the linejudge and the camera. once the umpire called for replay he wouldn't be able to call it either and the point would be replayed..

this would be ideal for shots left at the back ie, flick serves.

Imagine how the linesmen do it. They only put one linesmen for each line on the same court. For example on the backline, there is only one person watching. So same number of linesmen, same number of camera, and that's 6.



we also have to consider the amount of time it takes to use these replays - if you have 10 camera's it could take some time to cue up the exact fractions of a second that the shuttle landed in - not something the umpire wants to waste time doing, so you need a backroom staff to manage the replays so that they could be available at short notice..

tennis manages this by having the hawkeye system - a combination of 3d modelling and camera's built into the individual venues (at substantial cost i'd imagine) and then using the machine to decide what to show.

this doesn't work for badminton because the shuttle is an irregular shape and difficult for the computer to resolve against the rest of the image..


Realistically, there will only be 6 of them at most. Hawkeye system also takes some time to replay the shot. How long does it take for the TV broadcasters to make an instant replay? Very little.
And of course, there will be a backroom staff. You can transfer some of the linesmen to work into the media room. That is easily done.
You don't need a computer with 3d modeling to judge a line call, human eyes are still the best at judging that, especially for birdies.




on top of that it's rare to get courts in arena's on their own apart from on finals day.. and then the mounts for the camera's would end up between the crowd and the court.. not ideal.

i fear there is no really satisfactory solution to this problem until software that can resolve the shuttle in 99.9% of cases is developed.. anyone fancy a project?


CCTV cams are small, just like a webcam. Just fix them on the ground, and that's it. What more do you want? We're not talking big semi-pro camcorders. You only need a cam with average quality at 30 fps.
You seem to put a lot in computing technologies. As much as a tech freak that I am, I still believe human judgement is still the best for now.

At most, for all the necessary equipment for two courts, it won't be more than 2,000$. BWF can invest in it and avoid some serious bad badminton marketing due to bad linecall... And can even attract more sponsors.

[coops241180]

6 camera's... i would say 10 - since you can't go moving those camera's to swap between singles and doubles - make it 12 since you need two for doubles.. (high service line)

you say transfer the line judges to the backroom staff - the line judges are all volunteers, they aren't going to know how to work the kit that controls televison replays. - the hawkeye system cuts out this human element... it may not be instantaneous - but the delay is acceptable for the pace of tennis. badminton is far quicker

i think if there was a simple solution the BWF would have implemented it..

[Loopy]

It may seem... cheap... but scotch tape will largely suffice to fix those cams. And 6 is enough for singles and doubles. Have you ever seen a challenge for the service lines in double? Never.
Also, I never said that you will replace linesmen. Those cams are here for the player challenges.
You're right though, volunteers may not know how to use video equipments. But in the media room, you'll just need at most two technicians to man the videos, and someone behind (one linesmen is sufficient) to judge the line call on instant replay.

And I highly doubt BWF are professional enough to manage efficiently their organisation. After all, the crew are mostly badminton players in the past (ie. Punch Gun). If you did put someone with great management and leadership skills at the head of BWF, things would change. In my opinion, the BWF should be managed like any Fortune 500 company, like any sucessful business. Tennis does it really well. There is no reason why badminton can't do it as well.

[markham player]

I think BWF should start using the hawk eyes on semi-fianls & finals, ie on centre court only if they don't have enough money since most of the first & second round games are not that critical. This hawk eye system should be implemented asap so that everybody can have enough time to adapt before the Olympic.

[bad_fanatic]

I think if we just have linesman that'll do their job correctly, like not favoring for the home team or not paying attention. It should be all ok.

[ms142]

A lot of people are mentioning Hawk Eye, thinking that it's only a money issue. Well, my intuition (being trained as a physicist) is that the both the physics and the image recognition issues are vastly more difficult in badminton than in tennis. Even if the image recognition issue can be resolved, the trajectory and the air drag could well be impossible to calculate, not to mention there is also the draft (which I'm sure is impossible to take into account).

[Smichz]

If money is the matters,that's why we need the badminton equipment companies support.

[vching]

I don't know why the threads were merged. What I was proposing was an entirely different thing. Its not Hawk Eye.

Its like the cricket third umpiring system. Solves all the problems. No bias, no need more money (we already have the existing equipment).

[jump_smash]

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=782941&postcount=175

[coachgary]

Ultimately the players should accept the officials call regardless of whether the player thinks its right or wrong, and then move onto the next rally.

[coachgary]

Would you let a match slip away at 20-19 with a baseline gamble? If its smash across a sideline, you didn't get in anyway, or hoped it was out.

[twobeer]

Ultimately the players should accept the officials call regardless of whether the player thinks its right or wrong, and then move onto the next rally.

Yes, but it is frustrating for players, and also for audience, if bwf doesnt take every measure to ensure rules are being properly enforced..

With rally scoring these calls gets VERY important, and ensuring good line-calls should really be a priority for BWF.

I am also abit annoyed that the rule of continous play between 0-11,11-21 is poorly enforced by judges.. Much too often allows towel, drinking etc. and other rests.. but thats another thread :D

-Twobeer