BWF and doping : just a joke !

[Zhao]

The BWF organise a seminar on medicine and badminton.
Everybody knoes that BWF make nothing against doping in badminton. This seminar is just a joke !!!:p

With the development of badminton since 10 years, it'ridiculous to have no positive control. May be because the control are very poor and rare.:rolleyes:

Viva BWF and thanks !!!

[jerby]

- sigit budiarto was suspended 3 years for doping
- at the Dutch Open, a 2 star event, every player got a jar...

[kwun]

The BWF organise a seminar on medicine and badminton.
Everybody knoes that BWF make nothing against doping in badminton. This seminar is just a joke !!!:p

With the development of badminton since 10 years, it'ridiculous to have no positive control. May be because the control are very poor and rare.:rolleyes:

Viva BWF and thanks !!!

there have been many evidence that BWF does have doping control (some of which was mentioned by jerby). it is irresponsible for the OP to accuse them of the contrary without any evidence.

[event]

it is irresponsible for the OP to accuse them of the contrary without any evidence.Who or what is the OP?

[kwun]

Who or what is the OP?

OP=Original Poster.. the guy who started the thread..

[chris-ccc]

The BWF organise a seminar on medicine and badminton.

This seminar is just a joke !!!:p




Hi Zhao,

This is not a joke !!! :):):)

No one badminton player wants to be beaten by another player because of doping.

It is great that BWF is aware of this, and is trying to prevent this unfair advantage.

You should have read about what happened to the Tour de France 2007 last week... with so many participants being disqualified for cheating with positive test for blood doping.

We hope that our beloved Badminton should remain 'CLEAN'.

Cheers... chris@ccc

[stumblingfeet]

It's a problem in most pro sports, even those that a big-news suspensions and bans.

[Zhao]

Do you really think badminton is clean ?:)
Never control in training ! and that's the most important !
Few control in competition !

BWF doesn't want many positive plyers. That's not very good for the development !

And if you just look the result in some discipline with just 2 countries (may be 1) on the top of the last SS... That's logical for you!!!

Open your eyes, guys!

I love badminton as you but i'm realistic.

When the BWF will really fight doping, the results will not be the same!!!

[kwun]

Do you really think badminton is clean ?:)
Never control in training ! and that's the most important !
Few control in competition !

BWF doesn't want many positive plyers. That's not very good for the development !

And if you just look the result in some discipline with just 2 countries (may be 1) on the top of the last SS... That's logical for you!!!

Open your eyes, guys!

I love badminton as you but i'm realistic.

When the BWF will really fight doping, the results will not be the same!!!

once again. i see no hard evidence to support what you have claimed. what i see is a bunch of guesses.

[jerby]

Do you really think badminton is clean ?:)
Never control in training ! and that's the most important !
Few control in competition !

BWF doesn't want many positive plyers. That's not very good for the development !

And if you just look the result in some discipline with just 2 countries (may be 1) on the top of the last SS... That's logical for you!!!

Open your eyes, guys!

I love badminton as you but i'm realistic.

When the BWF will really fight doping, the results will not be the same!!!
First off, you show you have no idea wether or not the players are checked for drugs (I make an example).
Now, your basic arguments comes out as "I don't know of any players getting caught, so they're not doing enough"

[LazyBuddy]

Do you really think badminton is clean ?:)
Never control in training ! and that's the most important !
Few control in competition !

BWF doesn't want many positive plyers. That's not very good for the development !

And if you just look the result in some discipline with just 2 countries (may be 1) on the top of the last SS... That's logical for you!!!

Open your eyes, guys!

I love badminton as you but i'm realistic.

When the BWF will really fight doping, the results will not be the same!!!


The theory is, unless you have hard fact, everyone is still NOT guilty. You can say look at the other sports, look at the rest of world as much as you can, but unless someone gets caught, s/he is still NOT guilty.

There's no point of you think or I think. We are talking about something related with ppl's reputation and career. We'd better have some good evidence, before pointing fingers. :cool:

[Athelete1234]

Your allegations are a joke unless you provide solid proof in the form of documents, player's comments, etc.

Also, check out this thread (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7014&highlight=doping)

[kewsoo]

The BWF organise a seminar on medicine and badminton.
Everybody knoes that BWF make nothing against doping in badminton. This seminar is just a joke !!!:p

With the development of badminton since 10 years, it'ridiculous to have no positive control. May be because the control are very poor and rare.:rolleyes:

Viva BWF and thanks !!!

BWF has been complying WADA [World Anti-doping Agency] regulations affiliated by International olympic committee which is the autonomous body of olympic sports. In fact every BWF sanctioned tournaments there is a special process through which the players are screened and sanctions are given.

It is not theory but it 100% undisputed undouted Anti-Doping process which are implemented and Dr.Gurucharan Singh is the official Doctor who is also officiating some of the FIFA matches to the best of my understanding.

So the comment is certainly avoidable although exceptions can be there for justifying the rationale but the truth is BWF has complied with this in the BWF sanctioned tournaments and we PRESS and media guys know it deeply

Let us not misguide the BC instead try to strengthen KWUN, BC and team in promoting the branding of the game.

[Zhao]

Of course some national fedration make a lot against doping (Denmark, France, Italy, ...) but the real fight must be organise by BWF.
I know a professional player. He played 18 tournaments (7 SS) this year. He never been controled in international tournament. He's realy in anger about that!!! Only in his country...

That's the reality !

Do you think it's normal to have only 2 positive test since 15 years in a professional sport ?:confused:

In cycling, they realy fight against doping and of course they find the cheater.
Sorry but the BWF doesn't have the same action !!!

It's too bad for badminton ! :crying:

Let's think about that, a big german scientist said :
"The doping control is the LAST prove of guilty!"

[Zhao]

BWF has been complying WADA [World Anti-doping Agency] regulations affiliated by International olympic committee which is the autonomous body of olympic sports. In fact every BWF sanctioned tournaments there is a special process through which the players are screened and sanctions are given.

It is not theory but it 100% undisputed undouted Anti-Doping process which are implemented and Dr.Gurucharan Singh is the official Doctor who is also officiating some of the FIFA matches to the best of my understanding.

So the comment is certainly avoidable although exceptions can be there for justifying the rationale but the truth is BWF has complied with this in the BWF sanctioned tournaments and we PRESS and media guys know it deeply

Let us not misguide the BC instead try to strengthen KWUN, BC and team in promoting the branding of the game.


Everobody knows that this is not enough !!!

[kewsoo]

Everobody knows that this is not enough !!!

zhao your feelings are certainly justifiable in the better interests of protecting and promoting the badminton community. every sport have their own constitution of rules and regulations as BWF also.

[bad_fanatic]

Wasn't there a player that's currently ranked 28th in the world that tested positive. I still see him competing in recent tournaments.

Maybe there's something else to it that I don't know.

[Zhao]

It would be interesting to know how many times an international is controled in 365 days.
And what kind of test ???

I think we'll see big different between countries and continent !!!

That's not fair and that's the BWF's job to harmonise that !

[jerby]

I think we'll see big different between countries and continent !!!

That's not fair and that's the BWF's job to harmonise that !
what isn't fair? the fact you thought about it?

"I think, therefore I am" ?:p:D

[Zhao]

Once again, a pro player can have one or two years without doping control in international tournament.

That's a fact !!

And this fact is not fair !!!


If you're alright with that, ok:eek::eek::eek:

[crosscourt]

When you say it's a fact where does that fact come from?

You may well be right as I don't know how much testing exists. If you're right that a succesful pro player (after all what's the point in testing someone who is not succesful!) can go 2 years without being tested despite playing in major tournaments then I would agree that is disturbing.

Do you know what BWF policy is on doping? Is it random testing, is it selective testing (every medal winner for example) or something else. It seems like your complaint is based on what you've been told by one person.

[chris-ccc]

Everybody knoes that BWF make nothing against doping in badminton.







No one badminton player wants to be beaten by another player because of doping.

We hope that our beloved Badminton should remain 'CLEAN'.







...... basic arguments comes out as "I don't know of any players getting caught, so they're not doing enough"







The theory is, unless you have hard fact, everyone is still NOT guilty.

We are talking about something related with ppl's reputation and career. We'd better have some good evidence, before pointing fingers.




Hi Zhao,

Don't just find fault. Find a remedy. :):):)

Don't just complain. Offer a better solution. ;););)

If you think that our BWF is not doing enough and that someone is taking advantage of it, then you should be reporting it to the BWF.




once again. i see no hard evidence to support what you have claimed. what i see is a bunch of guesses.




And as LazyBuddy and kwun mentioned... you'd better have hard evidence. :):):)




Do you know what BWF policy is on doping? Is it random testing, is it selective testing (every medal winner for example) or something else. It seems like your complaint is based on what you've been told by one person.




If Zhao thinks that we should be testing every player, instead of random testing, then I would disagree... because I know that our registration fees with BWF will be increased multiple times to meet the cost of doing it. :(:(:(

Cheers... chris@ccc

[jug8man]

that's interesting.... maybe some players 'won't win the olympics' for the fear of being tested for drugs by strict Olympic Council.... But have no fear of BWF events where 'enforcement is less stringent'???????????

Interesting theory that I doubt anyone will be able prove

[Linus]

that's interesting.... maybe some players 'won't win the olympics' for the fear of being tested for drugs by strict Olympic Council.... But have no fear of BWF events where 'enforcement is less stringent'???????????

Interesting theory that I doubt anyone will be able prove

I can sense another conspiracy theory looming! :eek::eek::D:D

[Zhao]

Some pro players ask BWF to organise more doping control with no results.

I think to be ok, each player should have 4 or 5 international control per year, minimum. And not only during the competition, of course!!!;)
That's not the fact today...

Since UCI organise tests (blood and urinate) during training camp and competition, the cycling change. That's not enough but that's the right way.

Today, a lot of people think badminton is clean because there're few positive control.
But it's just because the control organisation is so poor!!!

Sorry but that's the reality.

[LazyBuddy]

Some pro players ask BWF to organise more doping control with no results.



Not to question about your source, but throughout this thread, I don't see any hard evidences to backup your theory.

Do you mind to provide some "fact"??? Such as the players' names, when they submitted their requests, during which events? Also, any words about why their requests where rejected???

Unless you can provide some of the above, otherwise, I would say your claims are more of rumors other than facts. :o

[chris-ccc]

that's interesting.... maybe some players 'won't win the olympics' for the fear of being tested for drugs by strict Olympic Council.... But have no fear of BWF events where 'enforcement is less stringent'???????????




Hi jug8man,

Yes... If Zhao's theory is correct, then we should hope that some Badminton players, who continued to use doping without getting caught, would be caught at the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics.

If Zhao has no confidence in our BWF, then perhaps Zhao has more confidence in the IOC, International Olympic Committee. :):):)

Last year, at the 2006 Melbourne Commonwealth Games, the random testing during the warm up practice sessions held at security venues even got me involved. And I was only there participating as a coach and not as a player. :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc

[Zhao]

No control by BWF during training, that's not a rumor but the reality !

Few control during the international tournament, that's not a rumor but the reality !

Try to find how many control were organised during the last 7 superserie and how many of the 200 SS players were controled since january.

And no question about international serie and furure serie !!!

[Zhao]

Hi jug8man,

Yes... If Zhao's theory is correct, then we should hope that some Badminton players, who continued to use doping without getting caught, would be caught at the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics.

If Zhao has no confidence in our BWF, then perhaps Zhao has more confidence in the IOC, International Olympic Committee. :):):)

Last year, at the 2006 Melbourne Commonwealth Games, the random testingwarm up practice session at security venues during the even got me involved. And I was only participating as a coach and not as a player. :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc


In badminton, if we want to realy fight the doping, BWF have to organise control during the training.
That's the choice of a lot of sport.
If a player train 2 months before Olympics with doping, he'll be strong but not positive in the control during OG.
The players and federations are not stupid!!!

[chris-ccc]

Last year, at the 2006 Melbourne Commonwealth Games, the random testing during the warm up practice sessions held at security venues even got me involved. And I was only there participating as a coach and not as a player. :)




Hi Zhao,

In my earlier post, I hinted to you that the testing of doping is not cheap. And that is why we have random testing.




No control by BWF during training, that's not a rumor but the reality !




Here, I still cannot see that BWF should be testing every player under training.

This is because a trainee, who is just under training with a dream, may not achieve entry to BWF tournaments.

However, I agree that our top players should be tested more often, even during their training. :)




If a player train 2 months before Olympics with doping, he'll be strong but not positive in the control during OG.




Here again, even for the Olympics, the IOC will only test confirmed participants for the Games. Not just for anyone wishing to participate by training hard before the Games.

Even when the testing of doping is relatively cheaper, I cannot see that your suggestion for 'BWF or IOC to test every player under training' can be a reality.

But the random testing of confirmed participants during their preparation should be carried out. :)

Cheers... chris@ccc

[Zhao]

Hi Zhao,

In my earlier post, I hinted to you that the testing of doping is not cheap. And that is why we have random testing.



Here, I still cannot see that BWF should be testing every player under training.

This is because a trainee, who is just under training with a dream, may not achieve entry to BWF tournaments.

However, I agree that our top players should be tested more often, even during their training. :)



Here again, even for the Olympics, the IOC will only test confirmed participants for the Games. Not just for anyone wishing to participate by training hard before the Games.

Even when the testing of doping is relatively cheaper, I cannot see that your suggestion for 'BWF or IOC to test every player under training' can be a reality.

But the random testing of confirmed participants during their preparation should be carried out. :)

Cheers... chris@ccc

Of course it's not possible to test every player under training. But the players have to know that is possible!
Today they can train easily without control. And they know they have few chance to be controlled during competition.

I think it's not difficult to make a pro player's list (300 players may be) and control more often this list (in competition and training).

You can not say:"This is because a trainee, who is just under training with a dream, may not achieve entry to BWF tournaments.
" . Badminton is a professional sport!!!!

Imagine a pro in soccer or basketball say : "Sorry, you can't control me during training, i don't know if i'll play the next match"

[chris-ccc]

Badminton is a professional sport!!!!

Imagine a pro in soccer or basketball say : "Sorry, you can't control me during training, i don't know if i'll play the next match"




Hi Zhao,

Disagree with you again. :):):)

Sometime ago, I mentioned this...

====== ====== start of parts of comments ====== ======

Unfortunately, Badminton is not a true Professional Sport at the moment.

I hope that Badminton will become a true professional sport as soon as possible. And when that happens, experienced players will not need to undergo their National Training Schedule.

They can be independent, like Tennis players, and they can hire their own private coaches. They don't even have to play for their country if it interferes with their professional income, although most of them would, as we can see, like for the Davis Cup in Tennis.

====== ====== end of parts of comments ====== ======

The above can be found, as Post#81, in thread located at:
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40212

Perhaps their National Training Bodies are saying to BWF... "Sorry, you can't control our training system. You don't know if our players will be playing the next match".

Our only hope is to have our Badminton to be a true professional sport like Athletics, Basketball, Golf, Soccer, Tennis, etc... and not like Gymnastics, Swimming, Table Tennis, etc...

Oops, I hope that I have not offended those Sporting Bodies. :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc

[jerby]

this is just degenarating by the post....

saying "that's a fact" or "that's the reality" is hardly a source... Especially considering your previous posts...

Also, the entire top-20 is swamped with tournaments (little exceptions) and has no time to 'train with doping for two months'. Also, it's not like that stuff just disapears from your system within a week. With current tests they can even find out if somebody took a drug (cocaine, like one cyclist) weeks before...
And from my source (the tournament leader of the Dutch Open International) every major tournament is checked for doping.

[Zhao]

Sorry Jerby but that's a fact that badminton player is one of the fewer's controlled sportmen.
Except for players from nations with a big organisation to fight against doping, players can take medicine very easily.

It's clear that's BWF doesn't want a big scandal.
And once again it's not difficult to organise but the will is not there !

I'm sorry about that and a lot of players are sorry about that !



I wil not surprise to see a lot of withdraw or injuries for the next French Open...;)

[jerby]

you are aware that the word "fact" requires "evidence"?

fact (fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifkt)
n.1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2. a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.

3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4. Law The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.

[jerby]

so, in short, my main rebuttle would be "how do you know all those thing?" (this is, again, were facts/evidence come in to play)

-how do you know badmintonplayers are least controlled?
-how do you know the BWF doesn't want a scandal?
-how do you know there players out there using doping?

[Zhao]

so, in short, my main rebuttle would be "how do you know all those thing?" (this is, again, were facts/evidence come in to play)

-how do you know badmintonplayers are least controlled?
Just because i read the control statistic of a lot of sport and it' simple to see the evidence!
And because i'me a badminton player and i didn't have any control in international tournament since 18 month!
And because i speak with different players from different countries and they say exactly the same thing
-how do you know the BWF doesn't want a scandal?
Just because they organise nothing or just the minimum, to fight doping
-how do you know there players out there using doping?

I just know that it's not possible to know...
I hope badminton is clean but today it's not possible to say!

[chris-ccc]

I just know that it's not possible to know...







you are aware that the word "fact" requires "evidence"?

fact (fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifkt)
n.1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2. a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.




Hi Zhao,

We now know what you mean. :):):)

It is because BWF is conducting "random testing', and that they have not caught many players with doping... that you are guessing that there are players are taking advantage of it.

We take our Badminton seriously. And we are hoping/wishing that, if you know (if and only if you have strong evidence and facts) that some player(s) is/are taking drugs to enhance their performance, then please let us know.

All our Badminton Central posters here, including kwun, LazyBuddy, Althelete1234, kewsoo, bad_fanatic, crosscourt, jug8man, Linus, jerby, etc... have asked you to provide evidence. And we are still waiting for it.

Mere guessing is not good enough.

Wouldn't you be most upset if we are to guess that you are under the influence of drugs whenever you do a post at our Badminton Central ??? :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc

[Zhao]

Hi Zhao,

We now know what you mean. :):):)

It is because BWF is conducting "random testing', and that they have not caught many players with doping... that you are guessing that there are players are taking advantage of it.

We take our Badminton seriously. And we are hoping/wishing that, if you know (if and only if you have strong evidence and facts) that some player(s) is/are taking drugs to enhance their performance, then please let us know.

All our Badminton Central posters here, including kwun, LazyBuddy, Althelete1234, kewsoo, bad_fanatic, crosscourt, jug8man, Linus, jerby, etc... have asked you to provide evidence. And we are still waiting for it.

Mere guessing is not good enough.

Wouldn't you be most upset if we are to guess that you are under the influence of drugs whenever you do a post at our Badminton Central ??? :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc


I CHRIS
I'm not guessing something.
May be badminton is the cleanest sport in the world.
I have no evidence that players take drugs but i have evidence that BWF make the minimum to fight the problem.
That's the only thing i want to say!!!!!
I've nothing against players!!!

Once again, it's not difficult to take the TOP 60 in MS an LS and TOP 30 in doubles and organise a real doping control system. BWF can follow these players during 12 months with all the different control (testosteron, cortisol, IGF1,...)

Of course, not possible to follow all the players, but for the TOP that's essential!

[jiayou]

HOPE NO DOPING SCANDAL IN BADMINTON !!!

But the truth is if you have good stamina ... you will play better.
I am sure also there must be some player who takes more or less such a thing.

But dont forget, in Badminton comes first your good skill, with a lot of Training for many many years..

Viva Badminton :-)

[chris-ccc]

But the truth is if you have good stamina ... you will play better.
I am sure also there must be some player who takes more or less such a thing.

But don't forget, in Badminton comes first your good skill, with a lot of Training for many many years..




Hi jiayou,

Perhaps you have given the right explanation of why fewer Badminton players tested positive. :)

For Badminton, the skill factor plays greater role than the endurance, speed, strength, power, and other factors.

Cheers... chris@ccc

[Athelete1234]

That makes sense. The sports with lots of drug scandels are all sports which require muscle to win. In running, jumping, cycling...those all require first and foremost power and endurance. However, Badminton is very skill oriented.

[stumblingfeet]

The interesting problem then comes up:

Let's say you have a great player, one that is known for his great skills. However, all the training needed to develop that skill has taken its toll, and his body is breaking down from that work. What if there was something you can do to improve recovery, so he can prolong his career and retire with his joints still intact?

Actually, athletes might do many things to improve their recovery: they follow strict diets, always make sure to sleep right, manage their training volume, take supplements, ice water baths, visit soft-tissue therapists, self-hypnosis, electrical stimulation, vibratory stimulation... etc. The point is, they're not like normal people, they do "crazy" stuff all the time as part of their efforts to be top athletes.

I think that when you think about it this way, drug use as another way in which the athlete is devoted to their sport, the whole issue becomes a lot more interesting than the simple "drugs are bad" arguments seen in the news.

As for the health aspect, consider the fact that birth control pills are commonly used drugs that manipulate hormone levels to suit a certain lifestyle...

[Zhao]

You want to say that is not a problem to take drugs!:eek::eek::eek:

There're rules today with prohibited medicine. If a player take this medicine, he's just a cheater. He doesn't respect his sport, the other players and all the fans. That's the worst attitude in sport!!!



The interesting problem then comes up:

Let's say you have a great player, one that is known for his great skills. However, all the training needed to develop that skill has taken its toll, and his body is breaking down from that work. What if there was something you can do to improve recovery, so he can prolong his career and retire with his joints still intact?

Actually, athletes might do many things to improve their recovery: they follow strict diets, always make sure to sleep right, manage their training volume, take supplements, ice water baths, visit soft-tissue therapists, self-hypnosis, electrical stimulation, vibratory stimulation... etc. The point is, they're not like normal people, they do "crazy" stuff all the time as part of their efforts to be top athletes.

I think that when you think about it this way, drug use as another way in which the athlete is devoted to their sport, the whole issue becomes a lot more interesting than the simple "drugs are bad" arguments seen in the news.

As for the health aspect, consider the fact that birth control pills are commonly used drugs that manipulate hormone levels to suit a certain lifestyle...

[stumblingfeet]

You want to say that is not a problem to take drugs!:eek::eek::eek:

There're rules today with prohibited medicine. If a player take this medicine, he's just a cheater. He doesn't respect his sport, the other players and all the fans. That's the worst attitude in sport!!!

What I'm saying is that people don't tend to think too deeply about this subject, which is too bad because I think it is an interesting topic. Things aren't "right" or "wrong" just because someone else says so. It is much better to think about things, and contemplate the grey areas between each side.

[jerby]

Just because i read the control statistic of a lot of sport and it' simple to see the evidence!
then cite your sources, if it's all so simple...


And because i'me a badminton player and i didn't have any control in international tournament since 18 month!
well, lucky me...I haven't been controlled for 10 years:confused::p


I just know that it's not possible to know...
I hope badminton is clean but today it's not possible to say!
It's impossible to know, yet it's impossible to say everybody is clean? I'm stuck between and argument out of unknowing, or just a plain paradox..which is it?

[Zhao]

then cite your sources, if it's all so simple...
My source is the doping control statistic report of IOC 2006. For example, every top swimmer have been controled at least 20 times, table tennis players (TOP 20) 10 times minimum and pro cyclist more than 40 times...

well, lucky me...I haven't been controlled for 10 years:confused::p
Have you played 18 internationals tounaments as me??? If you haven't been controlled for 10 years, it's possible!:D:D:D
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=navy]
It's impossible to know, yet it's impossible to say everybody is clean? I'm stuck between and argument out of unknowing, or just a plain paradox..which is it?

Sorry but i don't understand the last sentence!

[jerby]

okay, let me try to rephrase and explain:

your statement:
A) It's impossible to know [iwho does drugs]
B) It's not possible to say everybody is clean

My rebuttle (simplified): everybody is innocent until proven guilty
My rebuttle, like I wrote it, was more a disection of your argument, which is either a paradox or a fallacy (I tried using the friendly term)

I wasn't exactly straightforward, sorry

[Zhao]

okay, let me try to rephrase and explain:

your statement:
A) It's impossible to know [iwho does drugs]
B) It's not possible to say everybody is clean

My rebuttle (simplified): everybody is innocent until proven guilty
My rebuttle, like I wrote it, was more a disection of your argument, which is either a paradox or a fallacy (I tried using the friendly term)

I wasn't exactly straightforward, sorry

OK, i understand now.
Of course everybody is innocent until proven. But i just want to say that is much more easier to be innocent when you are a badminton player (with 1 or 2 international drug test per year maximum) than a cycler with 40 or 50 !!! And of course that's much more easier for BWF to say badminton is clean.
Once again my first post was against BWF politic and not against players!
I hope i've answered your questions, jerby. I don't want to convice you but just give my opinion.

[jerby]

right, right, zo you're saying Lin Dan, Taufik Hidayat, Peter Gade, any top 10 player gets no more than 2 tests a year?

I must say I'm sceptical...

[Zhao]

In the international event, no more than 3 controls a year. That's sure !
If you take the Top 60 in MS, the average is 1 control, not more.

[jerby]

I think the source of those numbers is entirely you

http://www.internationalbadminton.org/documents/anti-dopingstatutes.pdf
the BWF anti doping statutes: (paragraph 4, 5 and 6 might be of some use)
- a random number of people are to be chosen during each national or inetrnational even to be subjected to doping-controles
-players can be selected for both out-of-competition and in-competition doping controles

the site also states the BWF meets the WADA's requirements...

so I guess it's not much of a "joke"

[Gollum]

In the international event, no more than 3 controls a year. That's sure !
If you take the Top 60 in MS, the average is 1 control, not more.

Stop posting everything in blue, please. The default fonts are there for a reason.
Quote your sources: refer to a reputable website or print publication that supports your (as yet entirely unsubstantiated) claims.

[Zhao]

Stop posting everything in blue, please. The default fonts are there for a reason.
Quote your sources: refer to a reputable website or print publication that supports your (as yet entirely unsubstantiated) claims.

Ok BWF make a great job to fight doping. Sorry for my first post.
I understand now why many countries have this politics.

[Zhao]

I think the source of those numbers is entirely you

http://www.internationalbadminton.org/documents/anti-dopingstatutes.pdf
the BWF anti doping statutes: (paragraph 4, 5 and 6 might be of some use)
- a random number of people are to be chosen during each national or inetrnational even to be subjected to doping-controles
-players can be selected for both out-of-competition and in-competition doping controles

the site also states the BWF meets the WADA's requirements...

so I guess it's not much of a "joke"

Yes and that's the reality. All the playershave been controled out of competition and in competition many, many times. That's in the anti doping statute!! Of course, am i stupid???
Thanks BWF, that's a great job.

[kwun]

i am glad that BC members are always sensible and won't let unsubstantiated rumors to thrive in the forum.

[sportsdoc]

Each test cost approximately USD200. Somebody has to pay for it. If you do more tests, you would have to have a bigger budget.

Players and organisers do not want their competition to be interrupted. Going for doping test can be a big nuisance if they are not prepared!

You dont want too many positive tests for a sport. Will not look good to the sporting community.

And of course, there are rules and regulations.

[TrueBlue]

the end of this thread is to me quite sad.it ends in a seemingly one minded way. but i think it must be allowed to look at other sports like cycling: for many years the spectators celebrated their drivers until one day the truth was a little bit revealed and then they were all "hated" which was also ridiculous.

kwun wrote: i am glad that BC members are always sensible and won't let unsubstantiated rumors to thrive in the forum.

i think its not goodtouse your role as administrator to influence debateswhich you dont like just by your authority as a administrator - For example often i read here in the forum postslike: "This is something kwun might have said...". I think then people see more the title of the poster rather than the subject.

[kwun]

the end of this thread is to me quite sad.it ends in a seemingly one minded way. but i think it must be allowed to look at other sports like cycling: for many years the spectators celebrated their drivers until one day the truth was a little bit revealed and then they were all "hated" which was also ridiculous.

kwun wrote: i am glad that BC members are always sensible and won't let unsubstantiated rumors to thrive in the forum.

i think its not goodtouse your role as administrator to influence debateswhich you dont like just by your authority as a administrator - For example often i read here in the forum postslike: "This is something kwun might have said...". I think then people see more the title of the poster rather than the subject.

not true. i merely commented on the way forum members handles/discuss in a thread. i made no claim to agree with the topic at hand. i encourage discussion based on facts and not based on rumor or hearsays. regardless of what the topic is, and regardless of whether i agree with it.

the thread starter started a sensitive topic making unsubstantiated claims. in situation like this, forum members can either fall to the unsubstantiated claim, or make wise response refuting it. it is up to the thread starter to present evidence which never materialize.

i believe BC members are open minded, but at the same time, we don't want to fall into baseless rumors. if proper evidence has been presented, then we will discuss accordingly.

[kwun]

TruBlue you have bumped 2 old threads dealing with doping. do you have any information that we don't know about and would want to share with us?

[TrueBlue]

since when do you have to have "information" to discuss in a forum? my personal concern is just the way that the physics of the players, their quickness and also the way some teams take long time periods for training camps, should allow this discussion, since its hard to deny the possible enhancing effects of drugs (like EPO or testosteron) for badminton. And i think the information that no sufficient training check-ups at least in some countries are done is safe enough to post here.
I am personally just worried that because in different proffessionlism in different countries not every athlete has the same "chance" and that the technical side of the game could be in big parts outlasted by physical abilities which are helped by the substances.

[kwun]

since when do you have to have "information" to discuss in a forum? my personal concern is just the way that the physics of the players, their quickness and also the way some teams take long time periods for training camps, should allow this discussion, since its hard to deny the possible enhancing effects of drugs (like EPO or testosteron) for badminton. And i think the information that no sufficient training check-ups at least in some countries are done is safe enough to post here.
I am personally just worried that because in different proffessionlism in different countries not every athlete has the same "chance" and that the technical side of the game could be in big parts outlasted by physical abilities which are helped by the substances.

you can discuss, but we can only classify this as unsubstantiated (sorry for the pun) speculation. ;)

[chris-ccc]

since when do you have to have "information" to discuss in a forum? my personal concern is just the way that the physics of the players, their quickness and also the way some teams take long time periods for training camps, should allow this discussion, since its hard to deny the possible enhancing effects of drugs (like EPO or testosteron) for badminton. And i think the information that no sufficient training check-ups at least in some countries are done is safe enough to post here.

I am personally just worried that because in different proffessionlism in different countries not every athlete has the same "chance" and that the technical side of the game could be in big parts outlasted by physical abilities which are helped by the substances.

you can discuss, but we can only classify this as unsubstantiated (sorry for the pun) speculation. ;)
.
Perhaps TrueBlue was not talking about our world top Badminton players, but casual players.

BWF is a member of the Olympic Games Federations, where the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Code is strictly followed. Therefore, players participating must be very careful with everything they ingest, including medications.
.

[TrueBlue]

you can discuss, but we can only classify this as unsubstantiated (sorry for the pun) speculation. ;)

are you referring to yourself as "we" now?:):confused:

[TrueBlue]

http://www.bwfbadminton.org/news_item.aspx?id=39476 zhou mi tested positive

[chris-ccc]

http://www.bwfbadminton.org/news_item.aspx?id=39476 zhou mi tested positive
.
Now we cannot say that BWF and doping is just a joke.
.

[chris-ccc]

Now we cannot say that BWF and doping is just a joke.

.
And here is part of a letter from Tong Wai Lun, the Chairman of Hong Kong Badminton Association, released today, 04-Sep-2010.

====== * ====== * ====== start of part of letter ====== * ====== * ======

HKBA has always been supporting and complying with the relevant regulations by WADA
and BWF. Whenever there was memo or guideline about anti-doping issued by BWF, HKBA
immediately distributed to relevant Board members, coaches and then informed players. We
have always informed and encouraged players to attend anti-doping education programmes
held by Sports Federation and Olympic Committee of Hong Kong, China to enhance their
awareness and attention to anti-doping regulations. HKBA has also been providing assistance
and guidance for players to submit their whereabouts information regularly. As a national
sports association, we are committed to preserve open, fair and justice of the Olympic Games
spirits and take such measures as necessary against the use of illegal acts to attain
championship.

From end of July till now, HKBA has been working closely with WADA and BWF and
promptly providing information when requested.

From now on, HKBA have learnt a lesson and will take this incident as educational material
to teach all badminton players to be from time to time aware of medication intake and
reporting. We will continue working with Hong Kong Sports Institute to strengthen
monitoring on players, to hold regular seminar for players and encourage them to attend
related workshops organized by Sports Federation and Olympic Committee of Hong Kong,
China. Meanwhile, HKBA may invite Hong Kong Anti-doping Committee of Sports
Federation and Olympic Committee of Hong Kong, China to conduct un-announced doping
test to our badminton players.

This is an isolated case. We believe that other players will not be affected. HKBA will
endeavor to promote badminton sports in Hong Kong as in the past, to educate players about
anti-doping regulation and knowledge, and to seek supports from the public, including
monitoring by the media.

====== * ====== * ====== end of part of letter ====== * ====== * ======

Source: http://www.bwfbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=23305
.

[TrueBlue]

.
Now we cannot say that BWF and doping is just a joke.
.

not quite so true. it poses a lot of questions like about her old teammates or other players who are of similar fitness and athletic ability. also it came out in the past -like ben johnson- that sometimes one black sheep should try to "prove" a sport is "clean" (in johnsons case it came out almost all his competitors were on doping).

[chris-ccc]

not quite so true. it poses a lot of questions like about her old teammates or other players who are of similar fitness and athletic ability. also it came out in the past -like ben johnson- that sometimes one black sheep should try to "prove" a sport is "clean" (in johnsons case it came out almost all his competitors were on doping).
.
BWF is only doing the random anti-doping checks. It is like the random drink-driving checks.

We cannot say that the system (of anti-doping and drink-driving checks) is just a joke.

The BWF anti-doping programme is about promoting a healthy and fair approach to training and competition. It is introduced to promote fair sportsmanship (without using drugs). It is not intended for the programme to go all out to catch offenders.
.

[TrueBlue]

so if you think its enough,ok. i dont. my main personal concern is that teenagers are confronted with videos of professional players who perform under drugs and think this kind of movement over long periods of time is possible without drugs. so maybe they damage their bodies or dream of international career and dont focus on other things like education, because nobody talks of doping in badminton.

[chris-ccc]

so if you think its enough,ok. i dont. my main personal concern is that teenagers are confronted with videos of professional players who perform under drugs and think this kind of movement over long periods of time is possible without drugs. so maybe they damage their bodies or dream of international career and dont focus on other things like education, because nobody talks of doping in badminton.
.
There is one thing that I am quite certain. If, while BWF is checking randomly with smaller samples, and if more and more players are found to be using drugs, then probably BWF would increase/introduce more anti-doping checks. BWF should be expected to follow the well-known checks used in our Cycling competitions.

Talking about teenagers at schools/universities, usage of drugs is on the rise. But schools and universities have yet to introduce any checks to discourage drugs usage.
.

[pBmMalaysia]

the title of the thread should be:

bwf and doping: just not enough!

after reading over 70 pages in this thread i am beginning to wonder

could a lot of lucky professional players got away with doping?

to conduct doping test beside expensive its rather troublesome

so random test has been selected by bwf.

this means lucky or unlucky

well zhou mi was the unlucky one

(as contributed by trueblue)
http://www.bwfbadminton.org/news_item.aspx?id=39476 zhou mi tested positive

[TrueBlue]

but this thread onlyhas 5 pages.

[TrueBlue]

sorry: i double posted.

[pBmMalaysia]

but this thread onlyhas 5 pages.

your last thread was no.73

according to my screen

what's yours?

[eaglehelang]

your last thread was no.73

according to my screen

what's yours?
You put PAGE, actually you mean POST. Post got 75+ mine = 76

[pBmMalaysia]

You put PAGE, actually you mean POST. Post got 75+ mine = 76

post and page not the same, my mistakes

sorry ladies and gentlemen