Macau Open 2007- final-07 October 2007 [Archive] - Page 4

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huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:00 AM

Such a heartbreak, Taufik losing 3 finals in a row. Although it is possible that he is jaded with only 1 week break from 3 tournaments, I feel the reason for his loss today is much deeper than that.

From the start of the game, it seemed that the match official (umpire) was finding fault with him. Now I am not saying that there is some bias here, but the umpire wasn't handling the situation properly. And the decision NOT TO ALLOW the court to be wiped, c'mon ...... :mad:

Even the Indonesian coach was seen complaining to one of the deputy referees.

Anyway, congratulations to Chen Jin for a deserved victory, he made less errors in the 3rd game and in the end, that's all that mattered. Congratulations to Taufik too, for qualifying in 3 straight finals within one month, but he needs to intensify his stamina and endurance training.

YES....his coach complained to Referee and since then umpire was very accomodating..I was yelling like" cleaning it up man"..it is not big deal....in qtr final matches also, CHN and MAS team several times to ask linesmen to wipe....so I was wondering why umpire was so reluctant to wipe it out as it was too early for TH to find excuses to take a breath.....

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:02 AM

so TH in.....
3 weeks
3 tournament
3 finals
and become MR.rUNNER UP IN ALL 3 finals....:D:p

Can your players do that? it is not easy considering that he had to play 3 tournaments in a month....It was just not TH's turn to win any title.....being 3 times RU is not negative at all.....

badMania

10-07-2007, 10:03 AM

I didn't watch Taufik's match....(never an ardent fan of Taufik like indra or taufik-ist :p). But, I will think that Taufik will not last 3-sets. You can see from the trend that he has the tendency to lose in 3-sets, esp for Finals. Anyway, being in 3 consecutive Finals is no mean feat :cool:

Let's see what Taufik is made of in the next SS events.

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:05 AM

I guess Taufik just felt frustrated....he needed to cool down perhaps? As far as I'm concerned, Taufik always shakes hands with his opponents....unless there's something that really irks him...?

I agreed that TH should shake CJ, eventhough he was upset....

zqloy

10-07-2007, 10:11 AM

Actualy CJ is known as quite sportif man and according to my source who close to CHN Team,,,he has been instructed to make the shuttle heavier..
I guess normally CJ did not do that.....

TH is really upset from the loss and some fans who were asking authographs had been advised to stay way for a while as TH clearly explained to one of Taiwanese coach why he was upset all about....by the way...Taiwanese, Malasian players were cheering Taufik to the extend to some Korean players.....

Clearly also TH was tired and CJ was a bit fresher...CJ knew that TH was good at the neet and smashing...to make shuttle heavier helped CJ's game...thats all I saw a few times.....

Did CJ really did that? Is that why TH keep changing the shuttle? I remember LD use to do that as well....

vching

10-07-2007, 10:13 AM

how do you make a shuttle heavier???

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:16 AM

Did CJ really did that? Is that why TH keep changing the shuttle? I remember LD use to do that as well....

YEP...I have been told that CJ normally did not do that.....may be CHN team watched the game yesterday ( TH vs PSW) and know that the shuttle should be heavier to slow down TH....it worked as CJ was able to return many..many smashes from TH....honestly I am not sure it is legal or not...been told that players are not supposed to do that....may be the players can change any shuttles just like that....thats why some players do that....it was a great game....just sad that TH was so close....

zqloy

10-07-2007, 10:30 AM

how do you make a shuttle heavier???

By wiping yr sweat on the shuttlecock feather :mad:

zqloy

10-07-2007, 10:33 AM

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:36 AM

YEP...I have been told that CJ normally did not do that.....may be CHN team watched the game yesterday ( TH vs PSW) and know that the shuttle should be heavier to slow down TH....it worked as CJ was able to return many..many smashes from TH....honestly I am not sure it is legal or not...been told that players are not supposed to do that....may be the players can change any shuttles just like that....thats why some players do that....it was a great game....just sad that TH was so close....

Ned to make it clearer....may be the players can not change the shuttles just like that....so thats why they flip them in any occasions..we can see that sometimes umpire wil not allow players to change the shuttle easily....anyway CJ was playing great and able to anticipate TH's shots....as I said being RU 3 times is not bad for TH.....his performance is getting better....I will not be surprise if TH withdraws from Denmark open......I hope not as I may be there eventhough only few days...lets see

pjswift

10-07-2007, 10:37 AM

I agreed that TH should shake CJ, eventhough he was upset....
TH enjoys shaking hands after a match.I'm not surprised he won't when he felt there was a set-up;it's the only way he can non-verbally communicate the fishiness of it all.
Is the umpire Singaporean? If he is, we'll have to complain to the SBA here for polka-dotting the clean Singapore image.
By the way, why was LWW yellow-carded?
It's sad that CJ had to defeat TH in an extra special way.Why don't they have confidence in CJ to win normally? CJ would have won on stamina.Anyway, TH has done well in reaching the final.Ants hinted TH was supposed to go there to 'wayang' but the hosts treated him so VVIP he felt oblige to play more?

xlasher

10-07-2007, 10:42 AM

Even though TH lost in all 3 Finals this month, I'm really impress how TH play. TH who usually play carelessly in other word, he doesn;t care how far he goes, can play this stabil and I can say TH is the player of the month.

:cool::cool::cool:

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:43 AM

TH enjoys shaking hands after a match.I'm not surprised he won't when he felt there was a set-up;it's the only way he can non-verbally communicate the fishiness of it all.
Is the umpire Singaporean? If he is, we'll have to complain to the SBA here for polka-dotting the clean Singapore image.
By the way, why was LWW yellow-carded?
It's sad that CJ had to defeat TH in an extra special way.Why don't they have confidence in CJ to win normally? CJ would have won on stamina.Anyway, TH has done well in reaching the final.Ants hinted TH was supposed to go there to 'wayang' but the hosts treated him so VVIP he felt oblige to play more?
:D:D yes ..he is a singaporean....I think after first complaint from TH since then the umpire was so accomodating.

LWW got yellow card as he delayed the game if I am not wrong......MAS coach told me that he adh a feeling that LWW/FTC could win,and actually LWW should have won but KKK/TBH was tougher....MAS MD told me that it was a good start for MAS MD but he wanted them to prove by winning more titles like coming up Denmark open/French Open...he felt that MAS MD often failed ub bigger events....so lets stay tune everyone at next 2 weeks...;);)

pjswift

10-07-2007, 10:46 AM

Can anyone tell me how KKK got bleeding knee? :eek::eek::eek:
Unusual friction between thin knee skin and thick floormat.

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:49 AM

Unusual friction between thin knee skin and thick floormat.
it was not major..KKK was so tough on court but he almost screamed when doctor tried to spray on his wound..it was funny even some players around him were gigling....:D:D it took doctors 3 rounds to cover the wounds.:eek::eek::eek:

zqloy

10-07-2007, 10:56 AM

it was not major..KKK was so tough on court but he almost screamed when doctor tried to spray on his wound..it was funny even some players around him were gigling....:D:D it took doctors 3 rounds to cover the wounds.:eek::eek::eek:

So KKK is not so tough a guy after all... :D:D:D
Anymore inside stuff that its not on the tv? :p

ants

10-07-2007, 11:07 AM

So KKK is not so tough a guy after all... :D:D:D
Anymore inside stuff that its not on the tv? :p

Every tough guy has a soft heart. :)

USAfan

10-07-2007, 11:13 AM

Can your players do that? it is not easy considering that he had to play 3 tournaments in a month....It was just not TH's turn to win any title.....being 3 times RU is not negative at all.....

Its frustrating to see such a calibre player not to close the deal. Hate to see him a second fiddler three times in a row. Hopefully this will not carry on and I'm sure he will have to evaluate his performance with better results in the near future. He is just too good of a player .... huh sign .....:confused:

robin7

10-07-2007, 11:13 AM

TH took the 1st game 21-19 but CJ fought back in the 2nd game 21-17 and forced a rubber.

In the 3rd game, TH was leading 6-3 at one point. CJ took 3 points in a row to level it at 6-6. CJ was leading 11-7 during the mid-game interval.
CJ continued his lead 14-11 before TH's crosscourt netplay leveled it at 14-14 after a long rally. TH regained the lead at 16-14 before CJ tied it at 16-16. TH's smash was unreturnable by CJ and it put TH in the driver seat at 17-16. TH missed a half court smash by sending the shuttlecock into the net and the score now tied at 17-17. CJ suddenly upped his gear by taking 2 points in a row and he was 2 points away from the title at 19-17. A lovely return by TH narrowed the score at 19-18. Since then, CJ never looked back and took the rubber at 21-18.

CJ clinched the victory in 3 grueling sets (21-19, 17-21, 21-18).

ants

10-07-2007, 11:20 AM

Oh well... he is not perfect.. and we all know it.

USAfan

10-07-2007, 11:21 AM

it was not major..KKK was so tough on court but he almost screamed when doctor tried to spray on his wound..it was funny even some players around him were gigling....:D:D it took doctors 3 rounds to cover the wounds.:eek::eek::eek:

the screaming was for all the leng lui hoping for some sayang sympathy:D:D:D what an actor huh ??? academy award ?????

Krisna

10-07-2007, 11:22 AM

a
Its frustrating to see such a calibre player not to close the deal. Hate to see him a second fiddler three times in a row. Hopefully this will not carry on and I'm sure he will have to evaluate his performance with better results in the near future. He is just too good of a player

Oh, Taufik will... ;) Let's see him in the Denmark Superseries and France Superseries in a few weeks, shall we... [I hope he plays there...]

well-son

10-07-2007, 11:25 AM

USAfan

10-07-2007, 11:26 AM

Oh well... he is not perfect.. and we all know it.

of course , hopefuly these will not turn into a continuous problem and affect him mentally

well-son

10-07-2007, 11:36 AM

Ned to make it clearer....may be the players can not change the shuttles just like that....so thats why they flip them in any occasions..we can see that sometimes umpire wil not allow players to change the shuttle easily....anyway CJ was playing great and able to anticipate TH's shots....as I said being RU 3 times is not bad for TH.....his performance is getting better....I will not be surprise if TH withdraws from Denmark open......I hope not as I may be there eventhough only few days...lets see

That is totally true! For some reasons we don't exactly know...
(maybe the umpire think/see that the shuttle cock is still ok),
but sometimes it is some kind of 'trick' of some players to take a breath for a while after a long rally. In some occasions, if the players do it too much (often), the the umpire will refuse their requests.

PS. I don't point this to TH vs CJ match, but in general.

Han

10-07-2007, 11:56 AM

How do you know he's from Singapore? What's his name? If so, must be from the civil service.Unbelievable.Acting authoritarian in Macau.

Be careful of what you're saying here, your government may be reading, the last thing we want is to lose a valuable member :D Yes, that's a stupid umpire!!

USAfan

10-07-2007, 11:57 AM

By wiping yr sweat on the shuttlecock feather :mad:

Can a player show the birdie to the ump and make an official complain against the opponent ??? Also, any incidents in the past when a player got caught for using this trick ?????:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Han

10-07-2007, 12:07 PM

I agreed that TH should shake CJ, eventhough he was upset....

In the heat of moment, hard to keep his mind straight. Both are excellent players and hope they can maintain mutual respect in the future encounters. BWF should look into tricks that players use to their advantage, ... Actually is simple by allowing player to change shuttle whenever requested, may slow the game down a bit but 21-point system should compensate the time lost.
Although unfortunate for Taufik on 3 straight lost in the final but his ranking should improve greatly when Olympic comes. Further more, the lost will make him work harder and hungrier for title, now who dare to cross path against him in coming tournament?

Han

10-07-2007, 12:15 PM

Can a player show the birdie to the ump and make an official complain against the opponent ??? Also, any incidents in the past when a player got caught for using this trick ?????:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Yes and Taufik supposed to be one of the best of know how, somehow he forgot to exercise his right. I think Taufik thought he still could win without making a scene, he didn't want to go too far and lose his temper ended up walk out court like before. Bottom line are those umpires, so diversify in tolerances, like the baseball strike zone, indirectly affecting the outcomes of the match unintentionally.

Han

10-07-2007, 12:26 PM

If CJ doesnt normally do that, he shoudnt! :mad:
Looks like the chinese team rely on their old tactics again, no wonder TH was irritated by the umpire for forbidding him changing shuttles....

Any player would have done the dirty tricks as long as they don't get caught, Chen Jin did it because the umpire did nothing so he just take the advantage. In baseball, if the umpire allow wider strike zone then pitcher should take that advantage so if umpire doesn't interfere Chen Jin putting his sweat on the shuttle then he would continue. Yes, it's unsportmanships but bottom line, he won, not fair and square but he won!

well-son

10-07-2007, 12:43 PM

Any player would have done the dirty tricks as long as they don't get caught, Chen Jin did it because the umpire did nothing so he just take the advantage. In baseball, if the umpire allow wider strike zone then pitcher should take that advantage so if umpire doesn't interfere Chen Jin putting his sweat on the shuttle then he would continue. Yes, it's unsportmanships but bottom line, he won, not fair and square but he won!

That's true.
For addition, in soccer, we often see some players do "diving" inside the penalty area in order to get the penalty kick. And...even the Great Maradona did a trick to make a "God-hand's goal" in World Cup 1986. Many other examples like this in any other sports if we want to find more...

However, I just knew that putting sweat on the shuttle can make it heavier :confused: (though I've been watching badminton for years...). It's a new knowledge for me then. Did CJ really do it??? If this trick did by CJ, I think many badminton's players have done the some things also, just like diving in soccer...
And I dont agree with all this.

wilfredlgf

10-07-2007, 12:44 PM

Damn, was willing CTF/LWW to win to knock some sense back into those young heads but pity, just can't finish it.

Han

10-07-2007, 01:08 PM

Damn, was willing CTF/LWW to win to knock some sense back into those young heads but pity, just can't finish it.

Still, these young and old pairs put up a great entertaining show! To me, I don't really care who win as long as the play to their capable ability. Great match to watch!

cooler

10-07-2007, 01:10 PM

ha
let's find reason why TH lost today.
because his opponent is unfair.
while in CJ's view, TH is unfair too.that would call for another 'why taufik lost' thread:D

Han

10-07-2007, 01:17 PM

That's true.
For addition, in soccer, we often see some players do "diving" inside the penalty area in order to get the penalty kick. And...even the Great Maradona did a trick to make a "God-hand's goal" in World Cup 1986. Many other examples like this in any other sports if we want to find more...

However, I just knew that putting sweat on the shuttle can make it heavier :confused: (though I've been watching badminton for years...). It's a new knowledge for me then. Did CJ really do it??? If this trick did by CJ, I think many badminton's players have done the some things also, just like diving in soccer...
And I dont agree with all this.

Actually I always use the same trick when I spar with my friend because some of the cheap bird is quite slow so putting sweat on it will make it fly faster. I would think the smash would be harder ... Anyway, I think this "sweat" thing may have overblown, if Taufik happen to win yesterday then it's a non-issue.
The key is still the umpire's tolerances, affecting players' and viewers' mood more that anything else!!!

cooler

10-07-2007, 01:22 PM

YEP...I have been told that CJ normally did not do that.....may be CHN team watched the game yesterday ( TH vs PSW) and know that the shuttle should be heavier to slow down TH....it worked as CJ was able to return many..many smashes from TH....honestly I am not sure it is legal or not...been told that players are not supposed to do that....may be the players can change any shuttles just like that....thats why some players do that....it was a great game....just sad that TH was so close....

how can u say that heavier shuttle slow the play down?
try playing speed 79 versus speed 77 speed and see which is slower:rolleyes: Therefore, ur theory about what chinese team know to trick TH is bogus.

well-son

10-07-2007, 01:40 PM

that would call for another 'why taufik lost' thread:D

Was there a thread called so before? Just curious :)

Actually I always use the same trick when I spar with my friend because some of the cheap bird is quite slow so putting sweat on it will make it fly faster. I would think the smash would be harder ... Anyway, I think this "sweat" thing may have overblown, if Taufik happen to win yesterday then it's a non-issue.
The key is still the umpire's tolerances, affecting players' and viewers' mood more that anything else!!!

Thanks for your info, it is really new knowledge for me.

Agreed, if TH happen to win yesterday, there would be no "putting sweat" issue for sure.

Agreed, too. The umpire judgement indeed affects players' mood/mentality and audience's as well. Too bad if one player lost because of incapable umpire.

Andi Sumantri

10-07-2007, 04:09 PM

a

Oh, Taufik will... ;) Let's see him in the Denmark Superseries and France Superseries in a few weeks, shall we... [I hope he plays there...]
Just wait and see, bro.:D

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 06:28 PM

Every tough guy has a soft heart. :)
:D:D Ants knows better......

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 06:31 PM

the screaming was for all the leng lui hoping for some sayang sympathy:D:D:D what an actor huh ??? academy award ?????
:D:D actually KKK was refused to get sprayed after feeling the pain....we all laughed at him....well...he got all hugs from Korean ladies.....anyway..it was a nice trip for me..as well as fastdrop..we had fun...;)
Glad to meet Cheung who is so professional taking pics for us....:D

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 06:35 PM

how can u say that heavier shuttle slow the play down?
try playing speed 79 versus speed 77 speed and see which is slower:rolleyes: Therefore, ur theory about what chinese team know to trick TH is bogus.
Excuse me????? it is not my theory...If you read my post that I had been told....how you said " Bogus" even Tawianese coach said that...are you a Coach too? even Korean and Taiwanese Coach discussed in English as I was sitting next to them.....

Please do not accuse me it si bogus...I do not make the theory..COOLER!!!

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 06:39 PM

How do you know he's from Singapore? What's his name? If so, must be from the civil service.Unbelievable.Acting authoritarian in Macau.
Every time, when a match, the announcer will announce his name and his nationality...the umpire is from Singapore and service judge is from India during CJ vs TH..

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 06:51 PM

In the heat of moment, hard to keep his mind straight. Both are excellent players and hope they can maintain mutual respect in the future encounters. BWF should look into tricks that players use to their advantage, ... Actually is simple by allowing player to change shuttle whenever requested, may slow the game down a bit but 21-point system should compensate the time lost.
Although unfortunate for Taufik on 3 straight lost in the final but his ranking should improve greatly when Olympic comes. Further more, the lost will make him work harder and hungrier for title, now who dare to cross path against him in coming tournament?
Agreed...hope TH learnt also.......

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 06:54 PM

ye333

10-07-2007, 07:20 PM

"Any player" is too strong a claim... I believe players like Zhao Jianhua never did such things. He is too proud to do this kind of tricks. He would rather suffer losses than lower himself to that level. I like that kind of personality.

I don't blame anyone who did that though. It is understandable.

Any player would have done the dirty tricks as long as they don't get caught, Chen Jin did it because the umpire did nothing so he just take the advantage. In baseball, if the umpire allow wider strike zone then pitcher should take that advantage so if umpire doesn't interfere Chen Jin putting his sweat on the shuttle then he would continue. Yes, it's unsportmanships but bottom line, he won, not fair and square but he won!

Jade Imperial

10-07-2007, 07:57 PM

LA LA LA LA LA.....CHEN JIN u made me sing all day...
na na na na i'm so happy.....
CHEN JIN ROCKSSSSSSSSSSSSS
la la la la la nan na na YESSSS

cooler

10-07-2007, 08:25 PM

Excuse me????? it is not my theory...If you read my post that I had been told....how you said " Bogus" even Tawianese coach said that...are you a Coach too? even Korean and Taiwanese Coach discussed in English as I was sitting next to them.....

Please do not accuse me it si bogus...I do not make the theory..COOLER!!!
i'm not trying to defend all the theories out there against the chinese team. I'm only saying a heavy shuttle will fly faster and farther than a lighter shuttle. It doesnt require a coach to understand this. Shuttles are graded this way as i know it. If u got this part wrong, then the subsequent theory is wrong too, regardless who invented this theory

If TH was disturbed by his suspicion of CJ tampering the shuttle plus that the umpire refused his requiest for a shuttle change, I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) the player has the right to 'test' the shuttle in question - a regular speed test as we all do for new shuttles. This will also get back at the umpire as this testing procedure would eat up more time than a simple shuttle change.

khloe

10-07-2007, 08:53 PM

he slipped when retrieving a shuttle....

nothin big
oic. Hope he can recovery soon.

ants

10-07-2007, 08:55 PM

:D:D actually KKK was refused to get sprayed after feeling the pain....we all laughed at him....well...he got all hugs from Korean ladies.....anyway..it was a nice trip for me..as well as fastdrop..we had fun...;)
Glad to meet Cheung who is so professional taking pics for us....:D

U mean the really got HUGZ from the Korean ladies?

kontrabando

10-07-2007, 09:36 PM

i'm not trying to defend all the theories out there against the chinese team. I'm only saying a heavy shuttle will fly faster and farther than a lighter shuttle. It doesnt require a coach to understand this. Shuttles are graded this way as i know it. If u got this part wrong, then the subsequent theory is wrong too, regardless who invented this theory

If TH was disturbed by his suspicion of CJ tampering the shuttle plus that the umpire refused his requiest for a shuttle change, I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) the player has the right to 'test' the shuttle in question - a regular speed test as we all do for new shuttles. This will also get back at the umpire as this testing procedure would eat up more time than a simple shuttle change.

Man, if that's the case, we don't need an umpire...we just put shuttle testers all round the place...but then, you allow players to question the decision of the shuttle testers? My point is, the reason why the umpire is there is to have a decision and not get into a circus of protests...

rwchen

10-07-2007, 09:41 PM

I just got to know that CJ has tampered with the shuttle and Taufik did not shake hand with CJ after the match. I always think that whether winning or losing a match, you should not lose your sportsmanship.

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 09:58 PM

U mean the really got HUGZ from the Korean ladies?
YES....actually many korean girls like him....:D:D he is more popular than TBH....dont tell him lah...

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:06 PM

i'm not trying to defend all the theories out there against the chinese team. I'm only saying a heavy shuttle will fly faster and farther than a lighter shuttle. It doesnt require a coach to understand this. Shuttles are graded this way as i know it. If u got this part wrong, then the subsequent theory is wrong too, regardless who invented this theory

If TH was disturbed by his suspicion of CJ tampering the shuttle plus that the umpire refused his requiest for a shuttle change, I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) the player has the right to 'test' the shuttle in question - a regular speed test as we all do for new shuttles. This will also get back at the umpire as this testing procedure would eat up more time than a simple shuttle change.

In this case, you should debate with Korean, taiwanese and INA coach...I just do not like being accused..thats all...I am not a player or coach...I tend to believe what they have said..after all....those coaches face similar problems with their players about this matter most of the time....I have no position to argue with them..I think you should go to tournaments and debate with them on this matter..

I know that TH's neeting is pretty good, by making heavier, TH could not do soft netting...thats all they said about TH's netting....which it proved that CJ got so many trouble with TH's netting....

If umpire refuses the changes, the players have to use the shuttle despite his testing or not....

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 10:06 PM

indra

10-07-2007, 10:09 PM

news flash from the court by Hauge:

" Th complains to umpire as cj flips the shuttle to make it heavier.. th is still upset now, ina official is trying to calm him down"

Aha..aha...CJ is cheating??? the umpire did nothing????

Macau is part of China????

Krisna

10-07-2007, 10:24 PM

Yes, Macau is officially part of the People's Republic of China since 1999... Just like HK since 1997. But the People's Republic of China still allow gambling in Macau.

So technically, there are 4 BWF tournaments within the People's Republic of China:
China Super Series 1
China Super Series 2
Hong Kong Super Series
Macau Gold GP

Hey, I thought BWF only allowed 2 BWF tournaments per country?!? They should review this... He he he... Otherwise, INA might also have Special Areas [like HK and Macau in China] and then have 4 BWF tournaments or more within INA...

OneToughBirdie

10-07-2007, 10:38 PM

:D:D actually KKK was refused to get sprayed after feeling the pain....we all laughed at him....well...he got all hugs from Korean ladies.....anyway..it was a nice trip for me..as well as fastdrop..we had fun...;)
Glad to meet Cheung who is so professional taking pics for us....:D
Are the Korean ladies 'leng lui'...did you and fastdrop get hugs as well...did Fastdrop drop fast after getting the hugs...hehehe!!!:p:D

OneToughBirdie

10-07-2007, 10:42 PM

OneToughBirdie

10-07-2007, 10:44 PM

U mean the really got HUGZ from the Korean ladies?
Ants, next times, you should try this trick and get huggies from the Korean ladies...ahem, only if they are good looking...if they are not good looking, pass them to Hauge and Fastdrop...hehehe!!! LOL!!:p:D

robin7

10-07-2007, 10:46 PM

In this case, you should debate with Korean, taiwanese and INA coach...I just do not like being accused..thats all...I am not a player or coach...I tend to believe what they have said..after all....those coaches face similar problems with their players about this matter most of the time....I have no position to argue with them..I think you should go to tournaments and debate with them on this matter..

I know that TH's neeting is pretty good, by making heavier, TH could not do soft netting...thats all they said about TH's netting....which it proved that CJ got so many trouble with TH's netting....

If umpire refuses the changes, the players have to use the shuttle despite his testing or not....
Wow, a revelation to me. I'm suspicious too.:D:D

What a loser if they really used this "trick" to win the title.

A true champion should win it fair and square.

OneToughBirdie

10-07-2007, 10:47 PM

YES....actually many korean girls like him....:D:D he is more popular than TBH....dont tell him lah...
Oh brother, that spells trouble...as though KKK is not getting into enough trouble, now he mess around with leng lui Korean girls...Pemuda is gonna get all excited now...hehehe!!!:p:D

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 11:24 PM

Are the Korean ladies 'leng lui'...did you and fastdrop get hugs as well...did Fastdrop drop fast after getting the hugs...hehehe!!!:p:D
No...:(:( not as handsome as KKK but I got nice pics with Jae youn jun...very friendly korean..:D:D she had won my heart now as big fan of hers...:D:D

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 11:24 PM

Oh brother, that spells trouble...as though KKK is not getting into enough trouble, now he mess around with leng lui Korean girls...Pemuda is gonna get all excited now...hehehe!!!:p:D
actually koreans are more aggresive so you can not blame KKK....hehe

huangkwokhau

10-07-2007, 11:55 PM

[quote=OneToughBirdie;682500]Ants, next times, you should try this trick and get huggies from the Korean ladies...ahem, only if they are good looking...if they are not good looking, pass them to Hauge and Fastdrop...hehehe!!! LOL!!:p:D[/quote
hey..hey...I do not think that I want them after Ants...:D:D

ctjcad

10-08-2007, 12:05 AM

Excuse me????? it is not my theory...

i'm not trying to defend all the theories out there against the chinese team.

Anyway, I think this "sweat" thing may have overblown, if Taufik happen to win yesterday then it's a non-issue.
The key is still the umpire's tolerances, affecting players' and viewers' mood more that anything else!!!
..i think whatever is the main complaint or point of contention coming from Taufik's camp, as i mentioned before, this was not Taufik's first ever encounter with facing this kind of issue. If he didn't know abt this, how would he assume that the shuttle was "flipped" & felt heavier etc.?!:confused:
I would rather think that Taufik's irritation/complaint somewhat stemmed from the 1st game's minor argument with the umpire, with regards to the denial of his request to change shuttle(s). And the effect of the umpire's refusal to honor Taufik's request propagated throughout the whole match, eventhough Taufik was still able to be in contention to win the match.
In any rate, like Han also mentioned, this is probably a bit overblown and shouldn't be made as a "big deal" as it may seem.

No...:(:( not as handsome as KKK but I got nice pics with Jae youn jun...very friendly korean..:D:D she had won my heart now as big fan of hers...:D:D
..hmm, so what happened to JunJY's supposedly "injured" thigh??:confused:..Because she seemed to move around with ease during her SF and Finals matches...:cool:

cooler

10-08-2007, 12:18 AM

..i think whatever is the main complaint or point of contention coming from Taufik's camp, as i mentioned before, this was not Taufik's first ever encounter with facing this kind of issue. If he didn't know abt this, how would he assume that the shuttle was "flipped" & felt heavier etc.?!:confused:
I would rather think that Taufik's irritation stemmed from the 1st game's minor argument with the umpire, with regards to the denial of his request to change shuttle(s). And the effect of the umpire's refusal to honor Taufik's request propagated throughout the whole match, eventhough Taufik was still able to be in contention to win the match.
In any rate, like Han also mentioned, this is probably a bit overblown and shouldn't be made as "big a deal" as it may seem.

Nod. Allegation was flying around including over the shoulder hear say from foreign coaches. Funny how TH won the 1st set with the flipped shuttle incident but lost the 2nd and 3rd sets that didnt involved any flipped shuttle incidents. I guess it's another excuse to chalk up in the long list of 'why taufik lost' excuses:p

Loh

10-08-2007, 12:27 AM

how can u say that heavier shuttle slow the play down?
try playing speed 79 versus speed 77 speed and see which is slower:rolleyes: Therefore, ur theory about what chinese team know to trick TH is bogus.

I also have my doubt. :confused:

On the contrary a heavier shuttle will fly faster and therefore a good smash will bring it down quicker.

How much heavier can CJ's sweat make to the shuttle has yet to be proven and even if it does make the shuttle a "little" heavier, as I have said, I doubt it will slow down its flight.

But is it CJ's intention to mess up the feathers so that the shuttle will be distorted? In social games a player may try to slow down the shuttle by interfering with the feathers, by placing his racket strings on top of the feathers or rubbing against them.

On the question of umpiring, remember that the umpire has to use his subjective judgment, but he has also to bear in mind that his decision must be fair to both players. As someone has said, does allowing the floor to be wiped give an "unfair advantage" to one party, maybe to find back his wind or to give him a short respite.

The umpire must also keep the proceedings "continuous" without unnecessary breaks in between rallies. The fixed "Interval" of 60 secs in a game and 2 minutes between games, are intended for players to refresh in the NSS unlike in the OSS where a fixed interval within a game was not provided and players could request the umpire for as many breaks as posisble. This had the unfortunate effect of delaying the game and giving undue advantage to the player requesting the stoppage without a good cause.

These are general remarks. Of course I did not watch the match live or on TV and am unable to give as good a perspective as I wished. :)

ctjcad

10-08-2007, 12:34 AM

Nod. Allegation was flying around including over the shoulder hear say from foreign coaches. Funny how TH won the 1st set with the flipped shuttle incident but lost the 2nd and 3rd sets that didnt involved any flipped shuttle incidents. I guess it's another excuse to chalk up in the long list of 'why taufik lost' excuses:p
..the "excuse", itself, was created or brought abt from Taufik (and his camp) and the coaches' talks (as heard & shared by Hau-ge)...which of course, is very debatable..;)

Jade Imperial

10-08-2007, 01:05 AM

situation is getting hot....
just enjoy the result...
no more excuses please...

eaglehelang

10-08-2007, 01:18 AM

:D:D yes ..he is a singaporean....I think after first complaint from TH since then the umpire was so accomodating.

LWW got yellow card as he delayed the game if I am not wrong......MAS coach told me that he adh a feeling that LWW/FTC could win,and actually LWW should have won but KKK/TBH was tougher....MAS MD told me that it was a good start for MAS MD but he wanted them to prove by winning more titles like coming up Denmark open/French Open...he felt that MAS MD often failed ub bigger events....so lets stay tune everyone at next 2 weeks...;);)

By MAS Coach I presume you mean Pang CC?? MAS MD means KKK?

It doesnt 'Mas Coach' to know Msia players fail at bigger events, from the results we all know that (failures at Olympics and WC shows that). BUT it's time to break the barrier/trend.

cooler

10-08-2007, 01:18 AM

note, plastic shuttle is waterproof and ruffle proof;):p

cooler

10-08-2007, 01:21 AM

situation is getting hot....
just enjoy the result...
no more excuses please...it is alway good to keep BC/BF hot and brewing to welcome new members;):)

huangkwokhau

10-08-2007, 01:36 AM

it is alway good to keep BC/BF hot and brewing to welcome new members;):)

As long as it makes sense....dont accuse someone with no reason....:cool::cool:

Wai Shing

10-08-2007, 01:39 AM

you can still mess around with the plastics though lol...it can become insanely slow or fast

eaglehelang

10-08-2007, 01:40 AM

Huang - LWW got yellow card as he delayed the game if I am not wrong......MAS coach told me that he adh a feeling that LWW/FTC could win,and actually LWW should have won but KKK/TBH was tougher...

By MAS Coach I presume you mean Pang CC?? MAS MD means KKK?

robin7

10-08-2007, 01:43 AM

Thanks for the review, Robin, since I did not watch the match.
And I am really enjoying read this thread, instead.
Congrats to Chen Jin for the title, and also to Taufik Hidayat who has passed to the finals for three times in a row (not many players can do it, it is GREAT).
Both players have shown their best.
Well done.
I think the turning point is when TH missed a half court smash by sending the shuttle into the net while leading at 17-16 in the decider. It should have been 18-16 instead of 17-17. Otherwise, the outcome could have been different.

taufik-ist

10-08-2007, 01:45 AM

I think the turning point is when TH missed a half court smash by sending the shuttle into the net while leading at 17-16 in the decider. It should have been 18-16 instead of 17-17. Otherwise, the outcome could have been different.

so taufik kurang beruntung ya :D

Loh

10-08-2007, 01:50 AM

you can still mess around with the plastics though lol...it can become insanely slow or fast

And the hollow cork can even retain more sweat than a feathered one! :D

Jade Imperial

10-08-2007, 01:51 AM

so taufik kurang beruntung ya :D
always same excuses if taufik lost;
1.kurang beruntung lah...( not lucky)
2.cheated by linejudge
3.cheated by his enemy
4.family problem lah..
5.bla bla bla.....:o:o:o:o

cape dehhhhhhh..

when you can be mature??
just receive the result..please...
it's just so simple like that

taufik-ist

10-08-2007, 02:04 AM

always same excuses if taufik lost;
1.kurang beruntung lah...( not lucky)
2.cheated by linejudge
3.cheated by his enemy
4.family problem lah..
5.bla bla bla.....:o:o:o:o

cape dehhhhhhh..

when you can be mature??
just receive the result..please...
it's just so simple like that

this time i will angry with u :D..

talk with my hand.. i didn't talked with you..
do you remembe bold words above. you ever said that to me

and you're such Hypocrite.. you also tried to find an excuse for chen hong's WO ( you said he was exhausted becos he played a few tournaments)... wakakakkkk

"not lucky" is not an excuse.. if i blame a shuttle or th lost due to his fatique.. those are excuses...

well-son

10-08-2007, 02:09 AM

always same excuses if taufik lost;
1.kurang beruntung lah...( not lucky)
2.cheated by linejudge
3.cheated by his enemy
4.family problem lah..
5.bla bla bla.....:o:o:o:o

cape dehhhhhhh..

when you can be mature??
just receive the result..please...
it's just so simple like that

I consider there is always a long long debate within players' fans lately especially if it is about some names, says... TH, LCW, LD, KKK/TBH, Fu/Cai, MK/HS, etc... whatever the result is... However, it is quite understandable since they are BIG names in badminton sports and that's why they have so many fans.

Ah... especially if one of them lost...

Hmm... but it is just fine and normal, since most of us who come to this forum are BAD MANIA :)

badMania

10-08-2007, 02:15 AM

I consider there is always a long long debate within players' fans lately especially if it is about some names, says... TH, LCW, LD, KKK/TBH, Fu/Cai, MK/HS, etc... whatever the result is... However, it is quite understandable since they are BIG names in badminton sports and that's why they have so many fans.

Ah... especially if one of them lost...

Hmm... but it is just fine and normal, since most of us who come to this forum are BAD MANIA :)

Hey...why "use" my name? :rolleyes:

Oldhand

10-08-2007, 02:16 AM

Well, Taufik Hidayat lost because Chen Jin was better that day.
Similarly, Taufik lost at the Japan Open because Lee Chong Wei was better that day.
Although China is not exactly the fairest sporting nation around, conspiracy and cheating allegations don't help in any way. :)

Chen Jin (or any player at the top level) would have to be extremely foolish to try tampering with the shuttle when being watched by broadcast cameras, personal cameras and umpteen officials from many countries (including those from the opponent's homeland). ;)

Come on people... we need a more convincing plot. :D

There will come a time when LD, TH, CJ, LCW and their contemporaries will lose because they are no longer good enough to beat the newcomers.
Since we aren't there yet, I bet we will have a lot more excuses coming our way. :rolleyes:

khloe

10-08-2007, 02:18 AM

YES....actually many korean girls like him....:D:D he is more popular than TBH....dont tell him lah...
Wah....I am so so jealous ah!!!:D:D:D. Really got korean girls hug KKK???

taufik-ist

10-08-2007, 02:20 AM

khloe

10-08-2007, 02:20 AM

well-son

10-08-2007, 02:28 AM

Hey...why "use" my name? :rolleyes:

Hi, bro...
I did not point to you. What I meant bad mania is badminton sport's mania.
Don't be misundertand :) (And I didn't realize that you have a VERY GOOD nickname, I like your nick very much, really)

badMania

10-08-2007, 02:31 AM

Hi, bro...
I did not point to you. What I meant bad mania is badminton sport's mania.
Don't be misundertand :) (And I didn't realize that you have a VERY GOOD nickname, I like your nick very much, really)

Hehehehe.....it's okay....:D

badMania

10-08-2007, 02:32 AM

well-son

10-08-2007, 02:39 AM

Uncle Loh said I am bad and mad :rolleyes:

haha, maybe what Uncle Loh meant is you are:
1) bad (sometimes)
2) mad (sometimes)
3) badmania (always and forever)

don't you agree? :D

Louisa

10-08-2007, 03:09 AM

haha, maybe what Uncle Loh meant is you are:
1) bad (sometimes)
2) mad (sometimes)
3) badmania (always and forever)

don't you agree? :D

Well said, say more, can?:D

cooler

10-08-2007, 03:14 AM

And the hollow cork can even retain more sweat than a feathered one! :D
mavis 300 and up have real solid cork

Loh

10-08-2007, 03:23 AM

mavis 300 and up have real solid cork

Oh sorry, I haven't played plastics a long time and didn't know they have improved this much. The day may come when they will be close to 90% of the natural :rolleyes:.

jasonmarc

10-08-2007, 03:44 AM

We will see who shall be the 2008 Olympics MS Runner Up... ;) Taufik is still the one of the most dangerous and feared player on the planet... :) He can repeat his Olympic feat and collect 2 MS golds. Nobody has ever collected 2 MS gold in Badminton yet... :D Taufik will be the first!

Yes, for TH....he has all in his game....the talent, skill, super net shots,....powerfull smashes,...good match composure......,...and etc...every things..he is only lack of stamina ....at this moment...and stamina can always improve thru training.....so i still think TH is still one of the front runner for the coming Beijing Olympic....gold medal...:p

robin7

10-08-2007, 04:08 AM

What happened to India Open? Canceled? Postponed?

huangkwokhau

10-08-2007, 04:14 AM

What happened to India Open? Canceled? Postponed?
no more...It is confirmed by Gopichan....

vching

10-08-2007, 05:16 AM

check out my post on China's alleged cheating

The Badminton Blog (http://thebadmintonblog.blogspot.com)

george@chongwei

10-08-2007, 06:30 AM

What happened to India Open? Canceled? Postponed?
robin, go here>>http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47185

george@chongwei

10-08-2007, 06:31 AM

check out my post on China's alleged cheating

The Badminton Blog (http://thebadmintonblog.blogspot.com)
do you fink the China team cheating/??

vching

10-08-2007, 06:37 AM

do you fink the China team cheating/??

personally, i think their behavior is extremely suspicious, but i am not in a position to draw absolute conclusions.

tommy_bun

10-08-2007, 09:32 AM

i'm not trying to give an excuse for TH... :D... mungkin cj keterlaluan 'curangnya' :D

N you are keterlaluan "bcandanya":mad:

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 09:39 AM

check out my post on China's alleged cheating

The Badminton Blog (http://thebadmintonblog.blogspot.com)

Ok... Every single time, after a tournament, regardless CHN win or not, there're these kinda posts around. Can we just swallow the result, put the so-call "national pride" aside for once, and focus a bit more on the sport itself?

Again and again, CHN becomes a dominating force in badminton, NOT because they are cheaters, or whatever "team strategy", simply because they work harder, work smarter, having a better develop system already established. Let's give all the players and coaching staffs some credits for their hard work.

To me, all the non-responsible claims (of course, almost all without solid proof) are just some losers' whinning. :o Crying and screaming and finger pointing is not going to make you a champion. Hardworking and good support system is the way to go. ;)

samuel882

10-08-2007, 09:47 AM

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 10:06 AM

But hard work & good supporting system ALONE can't guarantee you a champion too IF your opponents plays cheats, bribe the match officials, or so-called "TEAM Strategy" of course.. :cool:

Personally, I find such claim is a bit ridiculous. So, you tell me to win, you have to cheat, even if you can claim, such is to "balance off" what your opponents' action? :eek:

A true champion should be able to ready all the time, to handle all the possible cases. What about illness, injuries, unfavorable draws, unfavorable facilities??? Ok, let's cry and cry each time. I can't win, simply because I "never face the 100% pefect and fair condition"??? Give me a break please.

Please, show me the proof (no, not from xxx reporter, or yyy fans) from the organization, show me the OFFICIAL proof. It's true that any cheating is not good for a sport, but what about spreading non-responsible rumors?

To me, a person is innocent, until the judge find enough evidence to prove he is guilty. Therefore, there's no point to stamp a person, if yourself is "may be", "not sure", "possible" or "I think..."

Again, I think the reason that CHN team being targetted like 2,000 times more than others, more or less because a lot of fans here can't take the result as their own "heroes" can't produce a good result. Therefore, once the "sour grape" coming into mouth again, the "fans" totally give up the hope, therefore, close the eyes and randomly fire at others... :cool: Talking about the power of jealous... :(

Please, the true fans is the ones support the sport, regardless who is the next champion. Putting on a mask of "loyal fan", by putting down opponents, can NEVER help your to produce your "own champion". :o

samuel882

10-08-2007, 10:20 AM

Personally, I find such claim is a bit ridiculous. So, you tell me to win, you have to cheat, even if you can claim, such is to "balance off" what your opponents' action? :eek:

A true champion should be able to ready all the time, to handle all the possible cases. What about illness, injuries, unfavorable draws, unfavorable facilities??? Ok, let's cry and cry each time. I can't win, simply because I "never face the 100% pefect and fair condition"??? Give me a break please.

Please, show me the proof (no, not from xxx reporter, or yyy fans) from the organization, show me the OFFICIAL proof. It's true that any cheating is not good for a sport, but what about spreading non-responsible rumors?

To me, a person is innocent, until the judge find enough evidence to prove he is guilty. Therefore, there's no point to stamp a person, if yourself is "may be", "not sure", "possible" or "I think..."

Again, I think the reason that CHN team being targetted like 2,000 times more than others, more or less because a lot of fans here can't take the result as their own "heroes" can't produce a good result. Therefore, once the "sour grape" coming into mouth again, the "fans" totally give up the hope, therefore, close the eyes and randomly fire at others... :cool: Talking about the power of jealous... :(

Please, the true fans is the ones support the sport, regardless who is the next champion. Putting on a mask of "loyal fan", by putting down opponents, can NEVER help your to produce your "own champion". :o
The world of sports needs clean games...
IF not CHN is the one who dominates, lets say INA .. Of course fans ( I am referring to real "BADMINTON" fans, not supporters of players/nations ), won't be tolerate if they play cheating too. If we seriously into the game, some tiny gesture of the players, coaches.. We can easily guess what is going on behind the scene...
I agree with your point that we need prove.. However, the bribe scandals in Serie A as an example.. It takes months or even a years to come into conclusion & eventually bring it into courts...

robin7

10-08-2007, 10:31 AM

check out my post on China's alleged cheatin
Investigate and let the truth prevail.

Oldhand

10-08-2007, 10:40 AM

personally, i think their behavior is extremely suspicious, but i am not in a position to draw absolute conclusions.

What exactly is this 'extremely suspicious behaviour'? :confused:
'Winning' could be called suspicious behaviour if, say, a blind Chinese player were to beat Lee Chong Wei or Taufik Hidayat. :eek:
That, however, hardly sums up the current goings-on.

When an extremely fit, extremely skilled and extremely determined player beats an equally worthy opponent, that simply doesn't constitute either reasonable or fanciful grounds for suspicion. :)

Honestly, I would be quite suspicious every time China loses...
... and not when China wins (because they're good enough to win consistently). :p

The irony here is that no one seems to raise any allegation of 'cheating' or 'underhand tactics' when a team other than China wins. :D

vching, you're right when you say that you're not in a position to draw absolute conclusions.
With all respect (and I read your blog too), I'd add that you're in no position to allege suspicious behaviour either, extreme or mild. :rolleyes:

ye333

10-08-2007, 11:07 AM

I would say, such a "proof" is not among the responsibility of fans. Fans have no power to obtain such "proof". Accordingly, when a badminton fan says "player A cheats!", this does not mean player A is indeed guilty. But if this badminton fan can provide certain supporting evidence, then his accusation (still informal) becomes more believable.

Personally, I find such claim is a bit ridiculous. So, you tell me to win, you have to cheat, even if you can claim, such is to "balance off" what your opponents' action? :eek:

A true champion should be able to ready all the time, to handle all the possible cases. What about illness, injuries, unfavorable draws, unfavorable facilities??? Ok, let's cry and cry each time. I can't win, simply because I "never face the 100% pefect and fair condition"??? Give me a break please.

Please, show me the proof (no, not from xxx reporter, or yyy fans) from the organization, show me the OFFICIAL proof. It's true that any cheating is not good for a sport, but what about spreading non-responsible rumors?

To me, a person is innocent, until the judge find enough evidence to prove he is guilty. Therefore, there's no point to stamp a person, if yourself is "may be", "not sure", "possible" or "I think..."

Again, I think the reason that CHN team being targetted like 2,000 times more than others, more or less because a lot of fans here can't take the result as their own "heroes" can't produce a good result. Therefore, once the "sour grape" coming into mouth again, the "fans" totally give up the hope, therefore, close the eyes and randomly fire at others... :cool: Talking about the power of jealous... :(

Please, the true fans is the ones support the sport, regardless who is the next champion. Putting on a mask of "loyal fan", by putting down opponents, can NEVER help your to produce your "own champion". :o

chris-ccc

10-08-2007, 11:19 AM

check out my post on China's alleged cheating

The Badminton Blog (http://thebadmintonblog.blogspot.com)

Hi vching,

I think the word 'cheating' should not be used... 'cheating' means 'to violate the rules deliberately'.

I don't think that China has violated any rules. :):):)

Perhaps vching is not happy with China's gamesmanship. But gamesmanship is not prohibited by the Rules of Badminton.

Check out what Wikipedia has to say about gamesmanship, here is the link located at:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gamesmanship

games·man·ship
1. The art or practice of using tactical maneuvers to further one's aims or better one's position: "a sometimes wry, sometimes savage look at the players, political gamesmanship, turf battles and outright chaos that permeated Washington" David M. Alpern.
2. The use in a sport or game of aggressive, often dubious tactics, such as psychological intimidation or disruption of concentration, to gain an advantage over one's opponent.

Of course China can use any legal tactical maneuvers to better their position.

So... It is not cheating. :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 12:09 PM

I would say, such a "proof" is not among the responsibility of fans. Fans have no power to obtain such "proof".

Accuquiring proof is fans' responsbility, I agree. However, think before talking in non-sense while ruining someone else's reputation is certainly everyone's responsibility, right?

Can you just standing on the street block, randomly pointing to ppl, and accuse them as serial killers, bank robbers, etc??? Then, simply say, "hey, i made my claim, but it's not my responsibility to present any proof"? :eek:

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 12:17 PM

The world of sports needs clean games...
IF not CHN is the one who dominates, lets say INA .. Of course fans ( I am referring to real "BADMINTON" fans, not supporters of players/nations ), won't be tolerate if they play cheating too. If we seriously into the game, some tiny gesture of the players, coaches.. We can easily guess what is going on behind the scene...
I agree with your point that we need prove.. However, the bribe scandals in Serie A as an example.. It takes months or even a years to come into conclusion & eventually bring it into courts...

Hi vching,

I think the word 'cheating' should not be used... 'cheating' means 'to violate the rules deliberately'.

I don't think that China has violated any rules. :):):)

Perhaps vching is not happy with China's gamesmanship. But gamesmanship is not prohibited by the Rules of Badminton.

Check out what Wikipedia has to say about gamesmanship, here is the link located at:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gamesmanship

games·man·ship
1. The art or practice of using tactical maneuvers to further one's aims or better one's position: "a sometimes wry, sometimes savage look at the players, political gamesmanship, turf battles and outright chaos that permeated Washington" David M. Alpern.
2. The use in a sport or game of aggressive, often dubious tactics, such as psychological intimidation or disruption of concentration, to gain an advantage over one's opponent.

Of course China can use any legal tactical maneuvers to better their position.

So... It is not cheating. :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc

In an ideal world, yes, we need 100% perfect fairness for everything, but is that ever be possible?

Like Chris mentioned, CHN did not break any written rule, therefore, I don't know where "cheating" really come from. Ok, you can claim certain psychological strategies could be "gamemanship", which surely hard to swallow by the receiving side, but you are the ones can't handle the issue, there's no one to blame.

I've used many examples from a lot of sports (in other threads) to evaluate such "strategies". Such as, basketball coach call a time out in between freethrows, to "ice" the free throw shooter. Famous "hack the shaq" (or intentional foul), to gain back offense, while minimize the damage. Use all benches (any sports), if the outcome is obvious, and bench all the all stars, etc. Are they working favorable for the fans / opponents? No. Do they voilate any written rules? No, either. Do you call them "cheating"? At least, I won't.

Again, if u claim CHN has this or that, let me ask why INA stadium is known for the noise? Is that "friendly" to visiting team opponents?

Why BWF as an organization put limitation on OG entries, to limit CHN's participants? The result is WC champ XXZ and runner up XXF can't even play, even if they are 99% better than most of the participants. Is that great for the OG spirit? Is that fair from a pure sport point of view??? If you really want to find the cheater, ask yourself, isn't CHN the victims for years being "limited"? :mad:

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 12:24 PM

It takes months or even a years to come into conclusion & eventually bring it into courts...

Ok, you said it takes months or even years to find the truth.

Then, why right after (or even during) every single tournament, the so call "fans" already jump into conclusion of CHN cheating??? Isn't that exactly prove my point of the losers just crying with their eyes blind folded? :rolleyes:

Personally, I am sick and tired about reading all the repeating threads like:

1. When CHN doing well
1.1 CHN cheating
1.2 Why xxx (non-CHN hero, of course) lose

2. When CHN did no well
2.1 Told you, CHN's dominance end here, the great wall is fallign apart
2.2 Congrats to xxx for beating 3-4 consecutive CHN players, so, s/he is the WC, OG, SS, GC combo champ

Do we see double standard here??? :confused:

cooler

10-08-2007, 01:19 PM

Ok, you said it takes months or even years to find the truth.

Then, why right after (or even during) every single tournament, the so call "fans" already jump into conclusion of CHN cheating??? Isn't that exactly prove my point of the losers just crying with their eyes blind folded? :rolleyes:

Personally, I am sick and tired about reading all the repeating threads like:

1. When CHN doing well
1.1 CHN cheating
1.2 Why xxx (non-CHN hero, of course) lose

2. When CHN did no well
2.1 Told you, CHN's dominance end here, the great wall is fallign apart
2.2 Congrats to xxx for beating 3-4 consecutive CHN players, so, s/he is the WC, OG, SS, GC combo champ

Do we see double standard here??? :confused:
i'm seeing your pattern here too.

in the macau MS final, LYB wasnt there so critics can't blame LYB

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 02:14 PM

i'm seeing your pattern here too.

in the macau MS final, LYB wasnt there so critics can't blame LYB

Personally, I think the main issue here is the double standard.

Whenever it comes to CHN, ppl judge them with microscope in the most ideal society. Even if they are barely in the grey area, and still stay as a pure rumor base, it's already NO GOOD... YOU ARE CAUGHT... :cool: Therefore, the CHN teams needs to face the toughest draw, take the unfair "limitation", all get doctor's approval even with a fever and minor injury, never have more than 1 into QF or beyond, and most important, should NEVER WIN to make everyone here happy.

Whenever it comes to non-CHN, ppl judge them as human, with tons of positive excuses. Even if they play way below their standard, nice care of "why xxx lose", "tough luck", flowing out in no time. Therefore, the non CHN players, should have the best draws, never face 2 CHN in consecutive rounds, enjoy the free ride in OG (even if they are techniqually not as great), and "don't worry, if you fail, you are still my hero, because others CHEAT" support...

Oh my god... Is this the "clean game environment" or "perfectly fair world" we are talking about?

ye333

10-08-2007, 02:19 PM

Didn't you ever gossip about other ppl? Didn't you ever make negative comments on them? Did you ever have any "real proof" when you said such negative comments?

In the case of TH vs. CJ, I don't know whether you followed Hau-Ge's reports or not. But if you did, you can see that the situation is far from "just accuse CJ as cheating" without any supporting evidence. People see something, ppl hear something, then ppl try to figure out the truth, along the way some negative hypotheses on a certain team are made, what's wrong with that?

Can you just standing on the street block, randomly pointing to ppl, and accuse them as serial killers, bank robbers, etc??? Then, simply say, "hey, i made my claim, but it's not my responsibility to present any proof"? :eek:

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 02:25 PM

Didn't you ever gossip about other ppl? Didn't you ever make negative comments on them? Did you ever have any "real proof" when you said such negative comments?

I did make mistakes before, and many to be followed up. Does that mean you should make the same, or even more to make yourself better? Therefore serial killers everyday, ID theft, drug dealers, bank rubbers all over the place. So, let's all follow them?

Personally, I did not see the re-play yet. However, human eyes do lie sometimes, especially if you view from different angles.

Regarding my several previous post, my question here is "why there's double standard" when it comes to CHN team. The negative threads regarding CHN team, is like 500 times more than to others. On the other hand, the positive ones regarding CHN is less than 10%. If CHN team is really like a "cheating dozen" as it appears here, I wonder how come OG or BWF did not bann the entire nation yet. I am pretty sure they have much better video and analysis available than us. If average joe like you and I can see this and that from an ESPN replay, I wonder why all the experts can't find out and make it a LEGIT claim/complain. :rolleyes:

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 02:29 PM

But if you did, you can see that the situation is far from "just accuse CJ as cheating" without any supporting evidence.

No offense for the local media, but edited replay/picture/articles can mis-lead ppl.

Many nights, I turn on ESPN to watch sports highlights. More than 20% of the time, I was mis-lead about the result before they post up the final score. For example, they can highlight 5 mintues of Kobe/Wade/James doing crazy move and dunks on opponents, but only to show their teams are the ones getting beat up by 50 points. :o

ye333

10-08-2007, 02:32 PM

You are definitely mixing things up. What is wrong with "Why xxx lose"? Most ppl are just trying to find out the reason. Yes there is a universal reason "his opponent played better that day", but you can use that reason to any sport, any player, any match, and therefore it barely counts as a reason. Otherwise no coach is needed, if a player lost, OK, you just played worse than him today, play better than him next time!

Personally, I think the main issue here is the double standard.

Whenever it comes to CHN, ppl judge them with microscope in the most ideal society. Even if they are barely in the grey area, and still stay as a pure rumor base, it's already NO GOOD... YOU ARE CAUGHT... :cool: Therefore, the CHN teams needs to face the toughest draw, take the unfair "limitation", all get doctor's approval even with a fever and minor injury, never have more than 1 into QF or beyond, and most important, should NEVER WIN to make everyone here happy.

Whenever it comes to non-CHN, ppl judge them as human, with tons of positive excuses. Even if they play way below their standard, nice care of "why xxx lose", "tough luck", flowing out in no time. Therefore, the non CHN players, should have the best draws, never face 2 CHN in consecutive rounds, enjoy the free ride in OG (even if they are techniqually not as great), and "don't worry, if you fail, you are still my hero, because others CHEAT" support...

Oh my god... Is this the "clean game environment" or "perfectly fair world" we are talking about?

ye333

10-08-2007, 02:49 PM

Well if you take that kind of stand, then basically fans cannot comment at all. All we can do is watch the game and then forget it.

I don't think there is really a "double standard". China received a dominant share because China is dominating sport, so they have much bigger chance and motivation to do such things in important matches. For other countries, either they don't have the chance, or they don't have the motivation (For example, no matter how TH, Sony and Simon arrange win-lose between them, they cannot all get into top 4; But a good arrangement between LD, CJ, CY, CH, BCL has a decent chance of getting 3 into top 4), or the matches in which they cheated are not important enough (for example, Rizal/Polii always gives WO to Nova/Lilyana, but who cares).

Oh, by the way, do you have any "proof" of your "500 times", "10%" accusations? :-)

Personally, I did not see the re-play yet. However, human eyes do lie sometimes, especially if you view from different angles.

Regarding my several previous post, my question here is "why there's double standard" when it comes to CHN team. The negative threads regarding CHN team, is like 500 times more than to others. On the other hand, the positive ones regarding CHN is less than 10%. If CHN team is really like a "cheating dozen" as it appears here, I wonder how come OG or BWF did not bann the entire nation yet. I am pretty sure they have much better video and analysis available than us. If average joe like you and I can see this and that from an ESPN replay, I wonder why all the experts can't find out and make it a LEGIT claim/complain. :rolleyes:

Contactjj

10-08-2007, 05:00 PM

jgao_net

10-08-2007, 05:31 PM

Personally, I think the main issue here is the double standard.

Whenever it comes to CHN, ppl judge them with microscope in the most ideal society. Even if they are barely in the grey area, and still stay as a pure rumor base, it's already NO GOOD... YOU ARE CAUGHT... :cool: Therefore, the CHN teams needs to face the toughest draw, take the unfair "limitation", all get doctor's approval even with a fever and minor injury, never have more than 1 into QF or beyond, and most important, should NEVER WIN to make everyone here happy.

Whenever it comes to non-CHN, ppl judge them as human, with tons of positive excuses. Even if they play way below their standard, nice care of "why xxx lose", "tough luck", flowing out in no time. Therefore, the non CHN players, should have the best draws, never face 2 CHN in consecutive rounds, enjoy the free ride in OG (even if they are techniqually not as great), and "don't worry, if you fail, you are still my hero, because others CHEAT" support...

Oh my god... Is this the "clean game environment" or "perfectly fair world" we are talking about?
that's always been the problem. it's unavoidable. when you're the dominant force in any sport you'll get criticized to no end, win or lose.

also regarding vching (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=23882)'s blog about the so-called cheating allegations, that has got to be one of the most biased pieces of writing i have read :eek: you are purely speculating throughout the whole thing and you dont have any solid facts to back up your writing. your line 'investigate and let the truth prevail' is ridiculous. the only people who are suspicious are fans from rival countries. i think one will be hard pressed to find an actual report claiming that china is actually suspected of 'cheating'
but there is one part i do agree with, that you are in no position to judge if china is actually 'cheating', especially since you dont have any conclusive evidence

alfa-2

10-08-2007, 09:33 PM

personally i think this thread should be closed. kekekeke.............totally pointless arguing over these issues cos it'll never end. just like US n terrorism.

cooler

10-08-2007, 10:03 PM

It seems there is a need to agree on the definition of 'cheating', and differentiate it from other judgment.

Cheating is illegal and punishable offense while unfair competitive advantage is debatable.

There is no sense keeping talking about different thing with imprecise word or twisted judgment.

nod, some people here cant distinguish between legal and illegal precedures.
Pushing the bylaws to its limit is legal. If LYB is breaking the bylaws, ibf would have had discisplined china repeatedly. Why ibf disciplined taufik instead (HK walkout)? Isnt taufik is a big draw and most popular player and could tarnish ibf image or risk backlash if they fine taufik? Ibf fined TH anyway.

At this point, i proclaim that taufik is a most repetitious violator of cheating. First, he is already fined by IBF. Second, because of his weak stamina (compared to other top 10 players), he is one player that ask for shuttle changes and floor mopping the most, so to catch his breath. It seem this singapore umpire knew of taufik's tactic and declined taufik's request on both count. Of course, taufik fans cries bloody foul on the umpire.

Taufik's repetitious cheating is mild compared to chen jin's alleged one time sweat wetting the shuttle. This is not a allegation, one can see this happening in every match that taufik play in.

Krisna

10-08-2007, 10:20 PM

BWF, not IBF, cooler...

cooler

10-08-2007, 10:24 PM

BWF, not IBF, cooler...
i know. I'm nostalgic:p and i dislike the new bwf name.
No comment on my....proclaimation?:D

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 11:01 PM

I don't think there is really a "double standard". China received a dominant share because China is dominating sport, so they have much bigger chance and motivation to do such things in important matches. For other countries, either they don't have the chance, or they don't have the motivation (For example, no matter how TH, Sony and Simon arrange win-lose between them, they cannot all get into top 4; But a good arrangement between LD, CJ, CY, CH, BCL has a decent chance of getting 3 into top 4), or the matches in which they cheated are not important enough (for example, Rizal/Polii always gives WO to Nova/Lilyana, but who cares).

Great.

So, which occurs 1st:

1. CHN has enough powers in top 4, or
2. CHN use "team strategy"

Clearly, even your own statement support 1. So, we all agree that "you need to be good" to even have some chance of "advantage", right? Simply not the other way around.

So, let's stop for a second to argue whether CHN do have such "strategy" 1st or not. Let me give other teams some advice, BE GOOD ENOUGH YOURSELF 1st BEFORE ANALYZE OTHERS. :cool:

LazyBuddy

10-08-2007, 11:07 PM

vching

10-08-2007, 11:38 PM

Ok... Every single time, after a tournament, regardless CHN win or not, there're these kinda posts around. Can we just swallow the result, put the so-call "national pride" aside for once, and focus a bit more on the sport itself?

Again and again, CHN becomes a dominating force in badminton, NOT because they are cheaters, or whatever "team strategy", simply because they work harder, work smarter, having a better develop system already established. Let's give all the players and coaching staffs some credits for their hard work.

To me, all the non-responsible claims (of course, almost all without solid proof) are just some losers' whinning. :o Crying and screaming and finger pointing is not going to make you a champion. Hardworking and good support system is the way to go. ;)

i'm not complaining about anything. i'm just merely stating that the best way to shut up these fans is by such an investigation

But hard work & good supporting system ALONE can't guarantee you a champion too IF your opponents plays cheats, bribe the match officials, or so-called "TEAM Strategy" of course.. :cool:
Personally, I find such claim is a bit ridiculous. So, you tell me to win, you have to cheat, even if you can claim, such is to "balance off" what your opponents' action? :eek:

A true champion should be able to ready all the time, to handle all the possible cases. What about illness, injuries, unfavorable draws, unfavorable facilities??? Ok, let's cry and cry each time. I can't win, simply because I "never face the 100% pefect and fair condition"??? Give me a break please.

Please, show me the proof (no, not from xxx reporter, or yyy fans) from the organization, show me the OFFICIAL proof. It's true that any cheating is not good for a sport, but what about spreading non-responsible rumors?

To me, a person is innocent, until the judge find enough evidence to prove he is guilty. Therefore, there's no point to stamp a person, if yourself is "may be", "not sure", "possible" or "I think..."

Again, I think the reason that CHN team being targetted like 2,000 times more than others, more or less because a lot of fans here can't take the result as their own "heroes" can't produce a good result. Therefore, once the "sour grape" coming into mouth again, the "fans" totally give up the hope, therefore, close the eyes and randomly fire at others... :cool: Talking about the power of jealous... :(

Please, the true fans is the ones support the sport, regardless who is the next champion. Putting on a mask of "loyal fan", by putting down opponents, can NEVER help your to produce your "own champion". :o

no, of course you can win by hard work. but these rumours must have some sort of basis. Don't tell me that those decisions and walkovers and bad umpiring is just a coincidence and the fans are just jelous. INA dominated badminton in the 1990s, but still we don't accuse them of cheating. But here, fans are accusing China of cheating. Why? there must be some sort of basis. It cannot be just coincidence

Hi vching,

I think the word 'cheating' should not be used... 'cheating' means 'to violate the rules deliberately'.

I don't think that China has violated any rules. :):):)

Perhaps vching is not happy with China's gamesmanship. But gamesmanship is not prohibited by the Rules of Badminton.

Check out what Wikipedia has to say about gamesmanship, here is the link located at:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gamesmanship

games·man·ship
1. The art or practice of using tactical maneuvers to further one's aims or better one's position: "a sometimes wry, sometimes savage look at the players, political gamesmanship, turf battles and outright chaos that permeated Washington" David M. Alpern.
2. The use in a sport or game of aggressive, often dubious tactics, such as psychological intimidation or disruption of concentration, to gain an advantage over one's opponent.

Of course China can use any legal tactical maneuvers to better their position.

So... It is not cheating. :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc

again, im not saying that china is cheating. if you read my blog post, I am saying that there are people accusing china of cheating, and I refuse to take a position on this.

In an ideal world, yes, we need 100% perfect fairness for everything, but is that ever be possible?

Like Chris mentioned, CHN did not break any written rule, therefore, I don't know where "cheating" really come from. Ok, you can claim certain psychological strategies could be "gamemanship", which surely hard to swallow by the receiving side, but you are the ones can't handle the issue, there's no one to blame.

I've used many examples from a lot of sports (in other threads) to evaluate such "strategies". Such as, basketball coach call a time out in between freethrows, to "ice" the free throw shooter. Famous "hack the shaq" (or intentional foul), to gain back offense, while minimize the damage. Use all benches (any sports), if the outcome is obvious, and bench all the all stars, etc. Are they working favorable for the fans / opponents? No. Do they voilate any written rules? No, either. Do you call them "cheating"? At least, I won't.

Again, if u claim CHN has this or that, let me ask why INA stadium is known for the noise? Is that "friendly" to visiting team opponents?

Why BWF as an organization put limitation on OG entries, to limit CHN's participants? The result is WC champ XXZ and runner up XXF can't even play, even if they are 99% better than most of the participants. Is that great for the OG spirit? Is that fair from a pure sport point of view??? If you really want to find the cheater, ask yourself, isn't CHN the victims for years being "limited"? :mad:

again, I am not calling China a cheater, I am merely saying they might be:
1. cheating
2. a misunderstood force.

i am NOT insinuating that China is cheating. i repeat: I am NOT calling china a cheater. i am merely saying such a claim should be investigated and, if appropriate, punish china, or clear china's name, whatever the findings are.

the best way to find out whether china is cheating is to do this.

Ok, you said it takes months or even years to find the truth.

Then, why right after (or even during) every single tournament, the so call "fans" already jump into conclusion of CHN cheating??? Isn't that exactly prove my point of the losers just crying with their eyes blind folded? :rolleyes:

Personally, I am sick and tired about reading all the repeating threads like:

1. When CHN doing well
1.1 CHN cheating
1.2 Why xxx (non-CHN hero, of course) lose

2. When CHN did no well
2.1 Told you, CHN's dominance end here, the great wall is fallign apart
2.2 Congrats to xxx for beating 3-4 consecutive CHN players, so, s/he is the WC, OG, SS, GC combo champ

Do we see double standard here??? :confused:

again, fans are being fans. fans don't need to present a 100 page report. they are subjected to emotion, and in a free world, rightly should be able to express their emotions. the only thing we can do is to present the facts to them, by means of the IBF investigation, and then whether the fans accept it or not, it is up to them.

they can act whatever they like to act like.

that's always been the problem. it's unavoidable. when you're the dominant force in any sport you'll get criticized to no end, win or lose.

also regarding vching (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/vb/../forums/member.php?u=23882)'s blog about the so-called cheating allegations, that has got to be one of the most biased pieces of writing i have read :eek: you are purely speculating throughout the whole thing and you dont have any solid facts to back up your writing. your line 'investigate and let the truth prevail' is ridiculous. the only people who are suspicious are fans from rival countries. i think one will be hard pressed to find an actual report claiming that china is actually suspected of 'cheating'
but there is one part i do agree with, that you are in no position to judge if china is actually 'cheating', especially since you dont have any conclusive evidence that's always been the problem. it's unavoidable. when you're the dominant force in any sport you'll get criticized to no end, win or lose.

also regarding vching (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/vb/../forums/member.php?u=23882)'s blog about the so-called cheating allegations, that has got to be one of the most biased pieces of writing i have read :eek: you are purely speculating throughout the whole thing and you dont have any solid facts to back up your writing. your line 'investigate and let the truth prevail' is ridiculous. the only people who are suspicious are fans from rival countries. i think one will be hard pressed to find an actual report claiming that china is actually suspected of 'cheating'
but there is one part i do agree with, that you are in no position to judge if china is actually 'cheating', especially since you dont have any conclusive evidence

again, i reiterate: I AM NOT SAYING THAT CHINA IS CHEATING!!!

READ THE POST PROPERLY!!!

I AM SAYING THAT IF CHINA IS CHEATING, IF! THEY ARE CHEATING, THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED.

IF THEY ARE NOT CHEATING, THEY SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED AND THEIR NAME SHOULD BE CLEARED.

THE IBF FINDING DOES NOT MEAN TO CONVICT CHINA. IT AIMS TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS PERSISTANT ISSUE, WHICH I AM SURE CHINA WANTS!!!!

vching

10-08-2007, 11:47 PM

that's always been the problem. it's unavoidable. when you're the dominant force in any sport you'll get criticized to no end, win or lose.

also regarding vching (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/vb/../forums/member.php?u=23882)'s blog about the so-called cheating allegations, that has got to be one of the most biased pieces of writing i have read :eek: you are purely speculating throughout the whole thing and you dont have any solid facts to back up your writing. your line 'investigate and let the truth prevail' is ridiculous. the only people who are suspicious are fans from rival countries. i think one will be hard pressed to find an actual report claiming that china is actually suspected of 'cheating'
but there is one part i do agree with, that you are in no position to judge if china is actually 'cheating', especially since you dont have any conclusive evidence

Fans make badminton an international sport. The Olympic Comitee will not allow badminton to be an olympic sport if fans around the world don't follow it. And the BWF is there EXACTLY for that reason. As the governing body of badminton, if fans around the world are accusing China of cheating, and this is not a one off incident, if they are accusing China of cheating, then the BWF should investigate. I am sure China dosen't want its dominance in the mid 2000s to be marred by claims of injustice and cheating. If the fans are the ones that are claiming it, they should be satisfied by an investigation. How can my post be biased? I am not suggesting anything or insinuating anything. I am merely saying that to clear china's name, and to let the truth prevail, such an investigation MUST be taken.

I am sure you are not happy with the current situation where fans accuse China of cheating. My post is calling for an investigation, so that once and for all, this issue may be resolved. Is china cheating? or are they just a victim or jelousy?

Krisna

10-09-2007, 12:15 AM

i know. I'm nostalgic:p and i dislike the new bwf name.
No comment on my....proclaimation?:D

Which proclamation? This one below? :confused:

nod, some people here cant distinguish between legal and illegal precedures.
Pushing the bylaws to its limit is legal. If LYB is breaking the bylaws, ibf would have had discisplined china repeatedly. Why ibf disciplined taufik instead (HK walkout)? Isnt taufik is a big draw and most popular player and could tarnish ibf image or risk backlash if they fine taufik? Ibf fined TH anyway.

Mmm... why should I comment further about this? :confused: I have my own opinion about LYB, which I will keep it to myself... As they say, if you don't have anything more nice things to say about a person, better not say it at all.

As for the other things you wrote... I will also keep my opinion to myself this time. :cool: This thread is about the Macau Open, very off-topic to discuss about fiction... :)

samuel882

10-09-2007, 12:43 AM

As i wrote before, IF INA is the dominance force in badminton today, still many fans couldn't tolerate if they did not play to win with Clean & share..

We are not directing to CHN team here. Neither we blame them for being the super power now...
No one will suspect any team iF they have 10 players monopoly WR top ten if they always plays to win with the real skills / determination & not the other ways around..

pjswift

10-09-2007, 01:13 AM

Hi vching,

I think the word 'cheating' should not be used... 'cheating' means 'to violate the rules deliberately'.

I don't think that China has violated any rules. :):):)

Perhaps vching is not happy with China's gamesmanship. But gamesmanship is not prohibited by the Rules of Badminton.

Check out what Wikipedia has to say about gamesmanship, here is the link located at:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gamesmanship

games·man·ship
1. The art or practice of using tactical maneuvers to further one's aims or better one's position: "a sometimes wry, sometimes savage look at the players, political gamesmanship, turf battles and outright chaos that permeated Washington" David M. Alpern.
2. The use in a sport or game of aggressive, often dubious tactics, such as psychological intimidation or disruption of concentration, to gain an advantage over one's opponent.

Of course China can use any legal tactical maneuvers to better their position.

So... It is not cheating. :):):)

Cheers... chris@ccc
Gamesmanship based on the above two definitions is all about tactics.
Shuttle tampering is not about tactics so it's not gamesmanship;it's about modifying a device, in an devious way ,to the modifier's advantage.It's simple cheating because the sharp opponent would know.The BWF umpire may not know or may be aware but choose to ignore it because all of them have no guts to embarrass CHN if it were true.(This is not with reference to the MCO MSF match)

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 01:40 AM

THE IBF FINDING DOES NOT MEAN TO CONVICT CHINA. IT AIMS TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS PERSISTANT ISSUE, WHICH I AM SURE CHINA WANTS!!!!

I am sure you are not happy with the current situation where fans accuse China of cheating. My post is calling for an investigation, so that once and for all, this issue may be resolved. Is china cheating? or are they just a victim or jelousy?
..realistically:
1. How is this attempt going to be possible??:confused:
2. How will such "investigation" and "test" going to be conducted??:confused:
3. Are they going to interview ex-CHN players??:confused:..
4. And the so called players who alleged CHN of "cheating", how many of them actually said so?? Or all of these are just accusations made by fans/critics??:confused:

And even if the "investigation" is done & CHN is "cleared" from all allegations, and CHN keeps on dominating, do you think people will stop accusing and alleging CHN of "cheating" etc.??..So, IMO, it'll never cease and the best way to avoid all these is for the opposing countries/players to play all out and w/integrity every time they play..And IMO, if there is/are "cheating", the truth will be revealed one day; and so far, nothing has been revealed (the closest allegation/investigation that i know of was when the CHN Women's squad was accused of match-fixing a few yrs ago, which IMO, is a very debatable issue):confused::p...

Re the shuttle being tampered/"doctored", i'm sure most if not all of the professional players know or are aware abt this. But again, IMO, the point of complaint must've stemmed from the umpire's refusal to honor Taufik's request to change shuttle in the 1st game. If he had allowed Taufik to change shuttle(s), i'm sure this whole incident/debate wouldn't happen.....and BC would probably be a peaceful place by now:):D:cool:..........But, unfortunately, it's not the case..:crying::p

Btw, i think the focus of the discussion has veered off topic. Not sure if kwun wants to create a separate thread just for this latest set of discussion??:confused::cool:

cooler

10-09-2007, 02:18 AM

Fans make badminton an international sport. The Olympic Comitee will not allow badminton to be an olympic sport if fans around the world don't follow it. And the BWF is there EXACTLY for that reason. As the governing body of badminton, if fans around the world are accusing China of cheating, and this is not a one off incident, if they are accusing China of cheating, then the BWF should investigate. I am sure China dosen't want its dominance in the mid 2000s to be marred by claims of injustice and cheating. If the fans are the ones that are claiming it, they should be satisfied by an investigation. How can my post be biased? I am not suggesting anything or insinuating anything. I am merely saying that to clear china's name, and to let the truth prevail, such an investigation MUST be taken.

I am sure you are not happy with the current situation where fans accuse China of cheating. My post is calling for an investigation, so that once and for all, this issue may be resolved. Is china cheating? or are they just a victim or jelousy?Your postings are full of moot points. Since accusations of china's cheating are around for years. If chinese was really cheating, ibf (bwf) would have warned, disciplined and/or fined china years ago. We don't need your 'investigative' blogging to tell us that.

You claimed that u didnt accuse china of anything, only being a neutral blogger. Well then, why only present one side of the story? By pushing one point of view, u r biased, not a neutral journalist or blogger.

vching

10-09-2007, 03:22 AM

Your postings are full of moot points. Since accusations of china's cheating are around for years. If chinese was really cheating, ibf (bwf) would have warned, disciplined and/or fined china years ago. We don't need your 'investigative' blogging to tell us that.

You claimed that u didnt accuse china of anything, only being a neutral blogger. Well then, why only present one side of the story? By pushing one point of view, u r biased, not a neutral journalist or blogger.

am i pushing one side of the story? I don't think so. If my blogging is percieved it be pushing one side of the story, then you are convinced that China is cheating - because I have merely stated the facts. If, by reading the facts, you think that I am trying to promote one side of a story, then surely this warrants an investigation by BWF, as it is so suspicious that a neutral piece of writing on this issue will be percieved as biased?

As far as I know, BWF or IBF has never warned/cautioned/investigated such an issue.

vching

10-09-2007, 03:26 AM

..realistically:
1. How is this attempt going to be possible??:confused:
2. How will such "investigation" and "test" going to be conducted??:confused:
3. Are they going to interview ex-CHN players??:confused:..
4. And the so called players who alleged CHN of "cheating", how many of them actually said so?? Or all of these are just accusations made by fans/critics??:confused:

And even if the "investigation" is done & CHN is "cleared" from all allegations, and CHN keeps on dominating, do you think people will stop accusing and alleging CHN of "cheating" etc.??..So, IMO, it'll never cease and the best way to avoid all these is for the opposing countries/players to play all out and w/integrity every time they play..And IMO, if there is/are "cheating", the truth will be revealed one day; and so far, nothing has been revealed (the closest allegation/investigation that i know of was when the CHN Women's squad was accused of match-fixing a few yrs ago, which IMO, is a very debatable issue):confused::p...

Re the shuttle being tampered/"doctored", i'm sure most if not all of the professional players know or are aware abt this. But again, IMO, the point of complaint must've stemmed from the umpire's refusal to honor Taufik's request to change shuttle in the 1st game. If he had allowed Taufik to change shuttle(s), i'm sure this whole incident/debate wouldn't happen.....and BC would probably be a peaceful place by now:):D:cool:..........But, unfortunately, it's not the case..:crying::p

Btw, i think the focus of the discussion has veered off topic. Not sure if kwun wants to create a separate thread just for this latest set of discussion??:confused::cool:
i am sure the finer points can be sorted out by the BWF. Cheatings by a country have been investigated in other sports, and I am sure BWF can take this as a model to carry out its investigations.

Sure, people will still accuse China of cheating, if they are aquitted, but so just because some people don't believe the verdict, an investigation should not be carried out? Don't you think as a governing body, the BWF has the obligation to hundreds of millions of badminton fans to investigate it and publish their findings?

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 03:36 AM

i am sure the finer points can be sorted out by the BWF. Cheatings by a country have been investigated in other sports, and I am sure BWF can take this as a model to carry out its investigations.
..mind sharing how you think that would be possible??..:confused:;)

Sure, people will still accuse China of cheating, if they are aquitted, but so just because some people don't believe the verdict, an investigation should not be carried out? Don't you think as a governing body, the BWF has the obligation to hundreds of millions of badminton fans to investigate it and publish their findings?
..so then, what is the purpose of having the investigation and then the acquittal if people/fans/critics will continue to think otherwise??:confused:
Wouldn't that mean, we're going back to square one all over again??..:confused:..Or have them keep investigating one after another to finally reveal the truth??..:confused::p
Btw, the IBF/BWF had done an investigation on team CHN and i've mentioned it in my post above. Other than that, i haven't read/seen/heard abt any other investigations as i would assume there were not enough compelling proofs or doubts for them to do any investigations..;):cool:

vching

10-09-2007, 04:03 AM

..mind sharing how you think that would be possible??..:confused:;)

i can't, because i have not studied other investigations taken by other sports before. but if it works there, it will work here.

..so then, what is the purpose of having the investigation and then the acquittal if people/fans/critics will continue to think otherwise??:confused:
Wouldn't that mean, we're going back to square one all over again??..:confused:..Or have them keep investigating one after another to finally reveal the truth??..:confused::p
Btw, the IBF/BWF had done an investigation on team CHN and i've mentioned it in my post above. Other than that, i haven't read/seen/heard abt any other investigations as i would assume there were not enough compelling proofs or doubts for them to do any investigations..;):cool:

i think BWF has an obligation, regardless or the number of people that accept the verdict, to investigate. Some people, like me, will accept the verdict, while some won't. BWF has an obligation to declare its position on what the truth is.

What you are effectively proposing is that if XX player wins the Tour De France. And this XX player is suspected of doing drugs. But a lot of people don't believe this XX player has been doing drugs. So the world cycling governing body shouldn't investigate this matter?

Its not a matter of people believing or not. It is the obligation of the world governing body to investigate an accusation of such degree, no matter what the reaction to the verdict is. They can't just say, OK, lets close one eye because people won't believe us anyway. THEY are the leaders of this sport. They govern it. They should be the one that declares, whos right or whos wrong. If not them who? Should the truth be forever shrouded in mystery?

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 04:30 AM

Its not a matter of people believing or not. It is the obligation of the world governing body to investigate an accusation of such degree, no matter what the reaction to the verdict is.
..again, the only investigation on the CHN team, i've known & heard, was the case i posted above. Any other accusations of the CHN team, are just that, accusations/allegations without much proofs to make them a compelling case. And since there are no compelling proofs to this current (or past) allegations, then there wouldn't need to be an "investigation". BWF knows when to decide one.;):cool:

vching

10-09-2007, 04:43 AM

..again, the only investigation on the CHN team, i've known & heard, was the case i posted above. Any other accusations of the CHN team, are just that, accusations/allegations without much proofs to make them a compelling case. And since there are no compelling proofs to this current (or past) allegations, then there wouldn't need to be an "investigation". BWF knows when to decide one.;):cool:

i would say that the BWF is too embroiled in internal conflict.

You think there isn't reasonable doubt to warrant an investigation? In China Masters, umpires and linesmen that were the officials in the match of LD vs LCW and LD vs WCH were all chinese. Coincidence? Again, Taufik's complain of CJ's alleged cheating. Taufik wrongly accusing China again? CY walkover to LD in german open. Coincidence? All the hundreds of walkovers. So you're saying that the players get injured when they meet players from the same country? And then they get better the next day?

Fans don't accuse a country without any reason or purely out of spite. There has to be some truth behind all these allegation, or not. The best way to find out is through investigation.

BWF done an investigation before? Then they have to change their ways and make it more effective. If people are not satisfied with the explanation by BWF, BWF should continue investigating, especially since after investigations, suspicious activities are resuming.

Fans won't accuse China is they do everything in the open. CH's walkover against CJ. Another coincidence again?

wow... China must be the luckiest country on earth in badminton for more than 2 years. No compelling proofs? Think again...

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 04:48 AM

Fans don't accuse a country without any reason or purely out of spite. There has to be some truth behind all these allegation, or not. The best way to find out is through investigation.

BWF done an investigation before? Then they have to change their ways and make it more effective. If people are not satisfied with the explanation by BWF, BWF should continue investigating, especially since after investigations, suspicious activities are resuming.
..i'll let you lead and present those things (you mentioned above in your post) to BWF and see what BWF has to say..;)

vching

10-09-2007, 04:59 AM

..i'll let you lead and present those things (you mentioned above in your post) to BWF and see what BWF has to say..;)

actually, this is blown out of porpotion. I just want BWF to get to the bottom of this matter, which i doubt they will though...

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 05:03 AM

actually, this is blown out of porpotion. I just want BWF to get to the bottom of this matter, which i doubt they will though...

..who wanted an investigation on this "blown out of proportion" matter, in the first place??..:p:D;)

vching

10-09-2007, 05:10 AM

..who wanted an investigation on this "blown out of proportion" matter, in the first place??..:p:D;)

this is not blown out of proportion. This is an adequete and needed step. If you have a lesser way of solving this problem, im all ears.

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 05:13 AM

this is not blown out of proportion. This is an adequete and needed step. If you have a lesser way of solving this problem, im all ears.
..no need to have any investigation. I see no problem, so no need to investigate. Unless you'd like to lead in your cause;):cool:

vching

10-09-2007, 05:16 AM

..no need to have any investigation. I see no problem, so no need to investigate. Unless you'd like to lead in your cause;):cool:

no need to investigate? so just hide the problem and not only let China get away with it, or get tainted by this, whichever side you're on, and also encourage it by turning a blind eye?

what kind of governing body is this?

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 05:24 AM

no need to investigate? so just hide the problem and not only let China get away with it, or get tainted by this, whichever side you're on, and also encourage it by turning a blind eye?

what kind of governing body is this?
..actually none of my business...But if you're solid on your cause, then go ahead, lead and go present your proofs/causes to BWF and see what they have to say...We want to see actions, not just "talks"..;):cool:

vching

10-09-2007, 05:28 AM

..actually none of my business...But if you're solid on your cause, then go ahead, lead and go present your proofs/causes to BWF and see what they have to say...We want to see action, not just "talks"..;):cool:

my plan was just an open letter on my blog to the BWF, but now that you've said it, when I get time, I might contact the BWF.

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 05:33 AM

my plan was just an open letter on my blog to the BWF, but now that you've said it, when I get time, I might contact the BWF.
..be waiting for their reply~good luck!;):cool:

alfa-2

10-09-2007, 05:41 AM

no offense, but i dont think BWF would take into consideration of carrying out the investigation. better spend the money on some good meals, right?.......:D:D:D:D

sjoe

10-09-2007, 06:08 AM

Great.

So, which occurs 1st:

1. CHN has enough powers in top 4, or
2. CHN use "team strategy"

Clearly, even your own statement support 1. So, we all agree that "you need to be good" to even have some chance of "advantage", right? Simply not the other way around.

So, let's stop for a second to argue whether CHN do have such "strategy" 1st or not. Let me give other teams some advice, BE GOOD ENOUGH YOURSELF 1st BEFORE ANALYZE OTHERS. :cool:

One question for you LazyBuddy, on quote #2. What kind of "team strategy" that you are referring here in individual events that team CHN can use to gain advantage ? I hope you are not referring to the W/O or play easy or who ever win the first game....
I will be very disappointed if that what you think is the "team strategy".

z3048018

10-09-2007, 07:16 AM

vching

10-09-2007, 07:51 AM

that was one of the funniest blog i've ever read :eek::rolleyes:
what point is it for you to write a letter to the BWF/IBF claiming their 'cheating'? don't you think you would be better off writing to respective badminton countries and 'convincing' them to write to the federation about the "C" word? then again, they would probably think "What the hell?"

obviously TH thought otherwise regarding the shuttle incident by CJ. if he thought that was the case, would he not complain to the referee or change the shuttle? i didn't watch the match, just read from the hilarious blog!
first and foremost, I would like to thank you for finding my blog funny. If you are laughing at my humour (?) i thank you. If you are laughing at my logic, then I question your sanity.

the BWF is the world governing body for badminton. If there are claims like that, THEY should be the one that people contact, not the respective governing bodies of different countries. Respective countries are put into a very awkward position if they were to complain to the BWF, as it puts them in a confrontative position with a superpower, China.

secondly, my post was not merely complaining about TH's incident, which if you watched it, the umpire did not allow the shuttle to be changed. My post was more generally about the fan's accusations for years about how China cheats. I find that a serious allegation, and should be investigated.

huangkwokhau

10-09-2007, 07:56 AM

nod, some people here cant distinguish between legal and illegal precedures.
Pushing the bylaws to its limit is legal. If LYB is breaking the bylaws, ibf would have had discisplined china repeatedly. Why ibf disciplined taufik instead (HK walkout)? Isnt taufik is a big draw and most popular player and could tarnish ibf image or risk backlash if they fine taufik? Ibf fined TH anyway.

At this point, i proclaim that taufik is a most repetitious violator of cheating. First, he is already fined by IBF. Second, because of his weak stamina (compared to other top 10 players), he is one player that ask for shuttle changes and floor mopping the most, so to catch his breath. It seem this singapore umpire knew of taufik's tactic and declined taufik's request on both count. Of course, taufik fans cries bloody foul on the umpire.

Taufik's repetitious cheating is mild compared to chen jin's alleged one time sweat wetting the shuttle. This is not a allegation, one can see this happening in every match that taufik play in.

TH did not need to excuse to take a breath as it happened in first point!!!! I thought you watched the games?//?? now you are accusing TH about mopping floor....CHN XD has asked many times to mop the floor....nothing wrong with that!!! whats wrong with you Cooler which becomes HOTTER now.....

Umpire did wrong thing at the beginning...you have to admit that..it was slippery...why on earth TH need excuse in first point?where is your brain, cooler??? LD has been doing that before...there is nothing wrong with that..we all know that you are ANTI TH...i thought you proclaim yourself in the post that you are neutral, etc.....shame on you!!!!!

In JO or TO, TH did not do anything to cheat......pls show me with yopur proof before you open your big mouth.....If TH likes to cheat in every tournament...why TH is still a player that every tournament wants him to play including China committee.....wake up COOLER!!! stop your B S!!! enough is enough with your stupid posts.

OneToughBirdie

10-09-2007, 08:40 AM

TH did not need to excuse to take a breath as it happened in first point!!!! I thought you watched the games?//?? now you are accusing TH about mopping floor....CHN XD has asked many times to mop the floor....nothing wrong with that!!! whats wrong with you Cooler which becomes HOTTER now.....

Umpire did wrong thing at the beginning...you have to admit that..it was slippery...why on earth TH need excuse in first point?where is your brain, cooler??? LD has been doing that before...there is nothing wrong with that..we all know that you are ANTI TH...i thought you proclaim yourself in the post that you are neutral, etc.....shame on you!!!!!

In JO or TO, TH did not do anything to cheat......pls show me with yopur proof before you open your big mouth.....If TH likes to cheat in every tournament...why TH is still a player that every tournament wants him to play including China committee.....wake up COOLER!!! stop your B S!!! enough is enough with your stupid posts.

Fans = fanatic. I for one never believe fans can be 'neutral', we are all partisan either to a country or an individual. Being an ex-MAS citizen and growing up in MAS, naturally my support is for MAS players, though my favotite player is ZJH.

Presently, TH, LD and LCW, and maybe later on CJ are the main draws in baddy. I fly to WC05 just to watch the 3 of them, and of course other players too. A tournament w/o TH, LD or LCW in the final is a disappointment to many, not all.;)

samuel882

10-09-2007, 09:27 AM

Fans = fanatic. I for one never believe fans can be 'neutral', we are all partisan either to a country or an individual. Being an ex-MAS citizen and growing up in MAS, naturally my support is for MAS players, though my favotite player is ZJH.

Presently, TH, LD and LCW, and maybe later on CJ are the main draws in baddy. I fly to WC05 just to watch the 3 of them, and of course other players too. A tournament w/o TH, LD or LCW in the final is a disappointment to many, not all.;)

You are right in this point ;)

ye333

10-09-2007, 10:40 AM

Well, if you don't investigate, how can there be proof? For example, B is dead, ppl suspect A did it. Then the police just say, Oh, no proof yet, let's just wait. Isn't that ridiculous?

I think BWF just chose not to investigate. Badminton cannot to afford losing China.

..again, the only investigation on the CHN team, i've known & heard, was the case i posted above. Any other accusations of the CHN team, are just that, accusations/allegations without much proofs to make them a compelling case. And since there are no compelling proofs to this current (or past) allegations, then there wouldn't need to be an "investigation". BWF knows when to decide one.;):cool:

jgao_net

10-09-2007, 12:18 PM

vching, ill put it bluntly. unless the BWF sees that there is sufficient evidence that china is actively 'cheating', then there will never be an investigation.

just because some fans are claiming (without evidence) that a certain player/country is cheating it doesnt mean that the governing body will do anything about it.

and btw, you are going to have a lot more luck writing directly to the BWF about your ideas rather than push them here.

LazyBuddy

10-09-2007, 02:27 PM

One question for you LazyBuddy, on quote #2. What kind of "team strategy" that you are referring here in individual events that team CHN can use to gain advantage ? I hope you are not referring to the W/O or play easy or who ever win the first game....
I will be very disappointed if that what you think is the "team strategy".

In my previous post, I simply quoted what others always crying about, to show such ppl can't see CHN to be successful. It does not represent my own belief.

LazyBuddy

10-09-2007, 02:28 PM

Well, if you don't investigate, how can there be proof? For example, B is dead, ppl suspect A did it. Then the police just say, Oh, no proof yet, let's just wait. Isn't that ridiculous?

I think BWF just chose not to investigate. Badminton cannot to afford losing China.

To follow up your logic: B is dead, ppl suspect A. Police can't find any evidence, but to make everyone else happy, put A in jail anyway, to quiet the crowd. Do you think that's a better solution? :confused::(

The written law (you like it or not) is, everyone is innocent, unless you proof (not you think, or you like, or whatever) he is guilty.

LazyBuddy

10-09-2007, 02:33 PM

Well, if you don't investigate, how can there be proof? For example, B is dead, ppl suspect A did it. Then the police just say, Oh, no proof yet, let's just wait. Isn't that ridiculous?

I think BWF just chose not to investigate. Badminton cannot to afford losing China.

So, you mean, if someone simply does not like you, and call cop everyday to make some some bias story about you. Then, the cop should knock on your door, search your house and froze your account every single time. Until they can really find some "dirt" about you, they should NEVER stop. Otherwise, the person can simply sue the police about "no investigage" or "not trying hard enough"???

Please, you need at least reasonable amount of evidence to even make it a legit case (i.e. a police report in my example). Simply crying on the street won't lead to an investigation. :p

LazyBuddy

10-09-2007, 02:38 PM

no, of course you can win by hard work. but these rumours must have some sort of basis. Don't tell me that those decisions and walkovers and bad umpiring is just a coincidence and the fans are just jelous. INA dominated badminton in the 1990s, but still we don't accuse them of cheating. But here, fans are accusing China of cheating. Why? there must be some sort of basis.

Your source is very limited to make the above claim:

1. In 1990s, how many ppl have the internet access or forum.

2. In this forum, most ppl are NOT from CHN. If you visit some popular CHN badminton forum, I am pretty sure you will hear the other side of story.

3. Not to get me wrong, Sigit was my favorite player as I mentioned many times. However, he's banned for drug usage, but none of the CHN baddy players are banned for such reason so far... So, is that a good example of "clean"??? :rolleyes:

LazyBuddy

10-09-2007, 02:41 PM

huangkwokhau

10-09-2007, 02:46 PM

Since China is dominating in this sport, they have a lot to say and have influential in BWF....CHN has more players as well as market size which can influence sponsorship as well...BWF could not do much about all chinese umpire and service judge in china open master lately....actually it is against the rule...any one notice that? I brought that one to several umpires and all of them questioned it and it should not be..CHINA can still win but it will minimize the accusation of unfairness if one of them are not from china.....

LazyBuddy

10-09-2007, 02:53 PM

BWF could not do much about all chinese umpire and service judge in china open master lately....

I thought all the service judge can be all from the local, as it will be costly to "import" from other nations other than the host. I agree the umpire might be odd, though. :rolleyes:

LazyBuddy

10-09-2007, 02:55 PM

One thing I repeated over and over again is, you need to be good FIRST, in order to trigger all the talks. However, you have the talk, does not mean you are good. ;)

So, you can pick between "train hard / play smart" or "cry out lound and win debating championship". :p

LazyBuddy

10-09-2007, 02:59 PM

again, i reiterate: I AM NOT SAYING THAT CHINA IS CHEATING!!!

In case your memory is not clear, please explain to me what you mean by the title of your other thread: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48506

huangkwokhau

10-09-2007, 03:00 PM

I thought all the service judge can be all from the local, as it will be costly to "import" from other nations other than the host. I agree the umpire might be odd, though. :rolleyes:
Not for SS.......even Macau open...all umpires and service judge are from different countries. ( china, malaysia, japan,india,etc).same thing with IO,WC or recent one TO....honestly several umpires wondered why.when I brought it up..some are only for asia region as I talked to one of them...her next assignment is Vietnam and Sea Games.......linesmen are from local as they all volunteer....
actually qualified umpires serve as service judge also....they do take turn as umpire and service judge.....

ctjcad

10-09-2007, 03:03 PM

(whoah, LazyBuddy is on a roll here)..:p;)

Well, if you don't investigate, how can there be proof? For example, B is dead, ppl suspect A did it. Then the police just say, Oh, no proof yet, let's just wait. Isn't that ridiculous?

I think BWF just chose not to investigate. Badminton cannot to afford losing China.
..sure, there needs to be an investigation in order to get proof(s). And BWF will have an investigation **if there needs** to be one done.;) About why BWF decides not to investigate all of these so called “allegations”, that, I do not know. And definitely it’s none my business nor concern. :cool:
Anyway, I’ll refrain from posting on this issue here, as I think it’s trivial & we’ve steered this current discussion way off topic already (sorry folks).:p..(ye333, PM me, if you’d like to chat a bit more)..;)

huangkwokhau

10-09-2007, 03:09 PM

(whoah, LazyBuddy is on a roll here)..:p;)

..sure, there needs to be an investigation in order to get proof(s). And BWF will have an investigation **if there needs** to be one done.;) About why BWF decides not to investigate all of these so called “allegations”, that, I do not know. And definitely it’s none my business nor concern. :cool:
Anyway, I’ll refrain from posting on this issue here, as I think it’s trivial & we’ve steered this current discussion way off topic already (sorry folks).:p..(ye333, you have my PM, if you’d like to chat a bit more)..;)
Remember that CHN is superpower of badminton...BWF still needs China for tournaments...in some cases..BWF may have to close their eyes...I am not going to elaborate this matter here....remember that CHN has a lot to say ....I leave as it is...

well-son

10-09-2007, 03:38 PM

BWF could not do much about all chinese umpire and service judge in china open master lately....actually it is against the rule...any one notice that? I brought that one to several umpires and all of them questioned it and it should not be

I thought all the service judge can be all from the local, as it will be costly to "import" from other nations other than the host. I agree the umpire might be odd, though. :rolleyes:

I think the costs for importing umpires/service judges from other countries could be well handled by BWF as it is a world organization... All costs for this case must be organized (counted) very well... and not be a big deal for them...

Not for SS.......even Macau open...all umpires and service judge are from different countries. ( china, malaysia, japan,india,etc).same thing with IO,WC or recent one TO....honestly several umpires wondered why...

One question, Hau-Ge, why did BWF allow all chinese umpires (and serivice judges) in CO? As you said, it is against the rule, and it should not be... But why BWF allow this happen? BWF does not belong to CHN, doesn't it? :confused: So why...

huangkwokhau

10-09-2007, 03:49 PM

I think the costs for importing umpires/service judges from other countries could be well handled by BWF as it is a world organization... All costs for this case must be organized (counted) very well... and not be a big deal for them...

One question, Hau-Ge, why did BWF allow all chinese umpires (and serivice judges) in CO? As you said, it is against the rule, and it should not be... But why BWF allow this happen? BWF does not belong to CHN, doesn't it? :confused: So why...
I just about to write email about coming one to remind them whose umpires will be there...I know some federations has complaint to BWF especially about service faults, etc( it does not mean that non chinese will win but they want fair practice)...I just do not know in what forms...as I say...CHN has a lot influence in BWF...they can pull put many players if they want and also for market size, it attracts sponsor...

BWF has not answered me...I do not know why..I will keep pushing that issue

samuel882

10-09-2007, 04:15 PM

Obviously our point here is clean & fair games.. As simple as that , in which some people couldn't elaborate it..
We are not talking of CHN dominance is sickening or wanna try to kick CHN out of world badminton. Again i wanna insist here, if INA or MAS is the one who dominates today with some dirty tactics, i am sure many will cried foul too...
I am not sure whether any of BWF committee members will read this forums, but I do really hopes they can apply more non local umpire/service judge in the future tournaments, regardless it was a GP / SS ...

samuel882

10-09-2007, 04:21 PM

So, you mean, if someone simply does not like you, and call cop everyday to make some some bias story about you. Then, the cop should knock on your door, search your house and froze your account every single time. Until they can really find some "dirt" about you, they should NEVER stop. Otherwise, the person can simply sue the police about "no investigage" or "not trying hard enough"???

Please, you need at least reasonable amount of evidence to even make it a legit case (i.e. a police report in my example). Simply crying on the street won't lead to an investigation. :p

In our country, yes ... The cops have every rights to do this if you are accused of any guilty.. But then again, the decision will be make by chief of the Cops.. And don't tell me they will simple listen & trust any accused by the mouth of mad guys (physcho)
If the cops do nothing for the claims, they will have no respect from the citizens, & people will start doing all the crimes because they know they won't be caught anyway...

ye333

10-09-2007, 07:15 PM

You are like "either 0 or 1, nothing in between". If someone make many biased story about me, and if I am important enough, any reasonable cops would try to investigate indirectly first. Say checking some of my financial records, collecting rumors about me, etc.. As this investigation goes on, the credibility of the original "stories" may increase or decrease. After a while, if the credibility drops under certain threshold, the cops will forget it; But if the credibility increases to a certain level, the cops would ask for permit to search my house, freeze my account, etc. Any thing wrong with that?

Do you really visit Chinese forums? There are many negative stories about Team China floating around in these forums. I would say a lot more than appeared here.

So, you mean, if someone simply does not like you, and call cop everyday to make some some bias story about you. Then, the cop should knock on your door, search your house and froze your account every single time. Until they can really find some "dirt" about you, they should NEVER stop. Otherwise, the person can simply sue the police about "no investigage" or "not trying hard enough"???

Please, you need at least reasonable amount of evidence to even make it a legit case (i.e. a police report in my example). Simply crying on the street won't lead to an investigation. :p

Krisna

10-09-2007, 11:00 PM

TH did not need to excuse to take a breath as it happened in first point!!!! I thought you watched the games?//?? now you are accusing TH about mopping floor....CHN XD has asked many times to mop the floor....nothing wrong with that!!! whats wrong with you Cooler which becomes HOTTER now.....

Umpire did wrong thing at the beginning...you have to admit that..it was slippery...why on earth TH need excuse in first point?where is your brain, cooler??? LD has been doing that before...there is nothing wrong with that..we all know that you are ANTI TH...i thought you proclaim yourself in the post that you are neutral, etc.....shame on you!!!!!

In JO or TO, TH did not do anything to cheat......pls show me with yopur proof before you open your big mouth.....If TH likes to cheat in every tournament...why TH is still a player that every tournament wants him to play including China committee.....wake up COOLER!!! stop your B S!!! enough is enough with your stupid posts.

Cooler likes to write fiction... :rolleyes::rolleyes: Let him be, hau-ge... ;):D Anyway, let's not respond to his very off-topic posts...;) Capek percuma...

gidong

10-09-2007, 11:10 PM

Calm DOwn pipol .... just calm down :P

vching

10-09-2007, 11:25 PM

In case your memory is not clear, please explain to me what you mean by the title of your other thread: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=48506 (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/vb/../forums/showthread.php?t=48506)

do you know the meaning of alleged?

vching

10-09-2007, 11:27 PM

So, you mean, if someone simply does not like you, and call cop everyday to make some some bias story about you. Then, the cop should knock on your door, search your house and froze your account every single time. Until they can really find some "dirt" about you, they should NEVER stop. Otherwise, the person can simply sue the police about "no investigage" or "not trying hard enough"???

Please, you need at least reasonable amount of evidence to even make it a legit case (i.e. a police report in my example). Simply crying on the street won't lead to an investigation. :p

If there is a public outcry (which it is in this case) for the arresting of XX individual because he is accused of doing something, and there are sufficient evidence and sufficient (same country umpires, linesmen, walkovers etc), the police WILL arrest them. it will lead to an investigation....

vching

10-09-2007, 11:29 PM

cooler

10-10-2007, 12:28 AM

Remember that CHN is superpower of badminton...BWF still needs China for tournaments...in some cases..BWF may have to close their eyes...I am not going to elaborate this matter here....remember that CHN has a lot to say ....I leave as it is...
ur a hypocrite. When TH lost, TH fans screams bloody cheating on china side. When TH win, no accusation except cheering that TH is the sweetest smelling thing ever.

First u claim china is a cheater, then u say we need china and BWF is a suck up. Are u too afraid to say BWF is guilty too by association with china's cheating? Be a man, take a position.

First u said had CJ cheated by tampering the shuttles. Later u backtracked and said you were just quoting 'what u over heard' from foreign coaches and what u had read from vhing's blog, and cries 'don't accuse me cooler' LOL
Look at u now, endless followup postings on the same cheating allegation on china. What a hypocrite...

Bottom line is, if u can't convince me and some others here that china is cheating, what is the point of asking or writing (by vching) to BWF requesting an investigation into chinese's cheating practice? You're a joke here, and BWF see u and vching the same and will feed the request letter to the shredder. Don't u dare to make BC/BF look bad in the international scene as majority of us here don't belong to your joker camp.

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 12:29 AM

i believe there is sufficient evidence: you are telling me all the suspicious chinese behaviour dosen't warrant for an investigation?

There he goes again... :eek:
Since vching is repeating himself, I'm gonna repeat some myself:
What exactly is this 'suspicious Chinese behaviour'?

Do you mean 'winning' is 'suspicious behaviour'?
Do you mean a 'tactical approach' is 'suspicious behaviour'?
Do you mean 'psychological strategy' is 'suspicious behaviour'?

Mate, I'd hate for you to be a football or cricket fan.
If you were, then every team would be on your 'extreme suspicion' list.
Competition is not just about skills and fitness...
...it's also about strategy and tactics, including the psychological variety.

If I were Lin Dan playing Taufik... and if I knew that staring at Taufik makes him angry, I'd do it often enough to make him lose his cool (and thereby make errors).

In cricket and rugby, the Australians are well-known (notorious, in fact) for their sledging tactics on the field.
Almost every baseball catcher and cricket wicketkeeper resorts to taunting the opponent.
John McEnroe's tantrums were designed more to upset his opponent's rhythm rather than earn some ruling in his favour.
There was an incident (in the 1980s) when chess champion Anatoly Karpov had his personal pyschologist sit behind him and stare unblinkingly at the Russian defector Viktor Korchnoi.

If the China team boss thinks his country would earn an advantage if one of his players were to lose to another, then that's his call. That shouldn't arouse suspicion... it should be reason for admiration. (I remember seeing Rubens Barrichello giving way to Ferrari team-mate Michael Schumacher very near the finish-line at the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix ... this resulted from a 'team order'.)

If Chen Jin wipes his sweat on the shuttlecock, there are umpteen things his opponent can do. Whining (later) is not the best reply.

It'd be useful and laudable to stop whining whenever China wins.
The losers could do better by planning how to pay back in the same coin.

dannyang

10-10-2007, 12:35 AM

i believe there is sufficient evidence: you are telling me all the suspicious chinese behaviour dosen't warrant for an investigation?

restricting the number of players representing the same country is unfair to CHINA at the first place.

indonesian players also cheat on serve. I think IBF should investigate this too.

vching

10-10-2007, 12:38 AM

restricting the number of players representing the same country is unfair to CHINA at the first place.

indonesian players also cheat on serve. I think IBF should investigate this too.

i cannot rebut or verify your claims that Indo players cheat because i have never heard of such allegations... but from what i see, they serve properly.

restricting the number of players from a country is not cheating. Its to promote the sport. If China has 13/16 of the playeers in the Olympics, other countries would start to lose interest.

dannyang

10-10-2007, 12:40 AM

i believe there is sufficient evidence: you are telling me all the suspicious chinese behaviour dosen't warrant for an investigation?

I initially find your blog interesting.
but now, after your comment on "chn team cheating", i prefer to sleep on bed rather than waste of my time to read your blog.

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 12:40 AM

hey cooler, how about a name change to hotter? :D

dannyang

10-10-2007, 12:43 AM

i cannot rebut or verify your claims that Indo players cheat because i have never heard of such allegations... but from what i see, they serve properly.

restricting the number of players from a country is not cheating. Its to promote the sport. If China has 13/16 of the playeers in the Olympics, other countries would start to lose interest.

that's the difference between chinese players and other players. after chinese players lose, they go back and train harder instead of complaining,however, other players find a large amount of excuses for their losses.

vching

10-10-2007, 12:44 AM

There he goes again... :eek:
Since vching is repeating himself, I'm gonna repeat some myself:
What exactly is this 'suspicious Chinese behaviour'?

Do you mean 'winning' is 'suspicious behaviour'?
Do you mean a 'tactical approach' is 'suspicious behaviour'?
Do you mean 'psychological strategy' is 'suspicious behaviour'?

Mate, I'd hate for you to be a football or cricket fan.
If you were, then every team would be on your 'extreme suspicion' list.
Competition is not just about skills and fitness...
...it's also about strategy and tactics, including the psychological variety.

If I were Lin Dan playing Taufik... and if I knew that staring at Taufik makes him angry, I'd do it often enough to make him lose his cool (and thereby make errors).

In cricket and rugby, the Australians are well-known (notorious, in fact) for their sledging tactics on the field.
Almost every baseball catcher and cricket wicketkeeper resorts to taunting the opponent.
John McEnroe's tantrums were designed more to upset his opponent's rhythm rather than earn some ruling in his favour.
There was an incident (in the 1980s) when chess champion Anatoly Karpov had his personal pyschologist sit behind him and stare unblinkingly at the Russian defector Viktor Korchnoi.

If the China team boss thinks his country would earn an advantage if one of his players were to lose to another, then that's his call. That shouldn't arouse suspicion... it should be reason for admiration. (I remember seeing Rubens Barrichello giving way to Ferrari team-mate Michael Schumacher very near the finish-line at the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix ... this resulted from a 'team order'.)

If Chen Jin wipes his sweat on the shuttlecock, there are umpteen things his opponent can do. Whining (later) is not the best reply.

It'd be useful and laudable to stop whining whenever China wins.
The losers could do better by planning how to pay back in the same coin.

if i am repeating myself, it is because I am not getting my message across.

winning is not a suspicious behaviour
tactical approaches and phsycological strategies are not suspicious behaviours. I love them.

I have no problem with psycological battles on court (like when you mentioned Lin Dan staring at Taufik), I think it is a good part of the game.
Taunting is OK.
And I am a big Australian cricket fan, and I see no foul play. I think they are very honest. Gilchrist walks dosen't he?

If Chen Jin wipes his sweat on the shuttlecock, and the umpire dosen't allow it to be change, THAT is suspicious behaviour.

I have no problem with China winning. what I have a problem with, is China's WIN AT ALL COST attitude. Maybe you think that walking over is OK, it may not be against the rules, but I dislike it, but then again, that wasn't my main point.

My main point was the influencing of the linesmen and the umpires. China vs Malaysia MD CM, TBS/OSH, China vs Malaysia MS CM, LD vs LCW etc etc. How come China cannot place a official from a neutral country? Can they not afford it? When everyone else can, why can't they?

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 12:45 AM

indonesian players also cheat on serve. I think IBF should investigate this too.

Ahhhh, here's another... :rolleyes:

vching

10-10-2007, 12:45 AM

I initially find your blog interesting.
but now, after your comment on "chn team cheating", i prefer to sleep on bed rather than waste of my time to read your blog.

if you cannot accept open discussions and cannot read my blog and comment as it stands, I don't want you as a blog reader. I didn't say China cheated. I said it was suspicious. So much for open mindness huh?

vching

10-10-2007, 12:45 AM

that's the difference between chinese players and other players. after chinese players lose, they go back and train harder instead of complaining,however, other players find a large amount of excuses for their losses.

Which players not from CHN complain? Name one that complained.

vching

10-10-2007, 12:48 AM

dannyang

10-10-2007, 12:50 AM

if you cannot accept open discussions and cannot read my blog and comment as it stands, I don't want you as a blog reader. I didn't say China cheated. I said it was suspicious. So much for open mindness huh?

why don't you start a open discussion on the walkover of indonesian XD pair when two indonesian pairs played against each other during the WC.

dannyang

10-10-2007, 12:52 AM

Which players not from CHN complain? Name one that complained.
TH complained the umpire...etc
LCW complained every year after his losses in WC.
...
...

vching

10-10-2007, 12:54 AM

TH complained the umpire...etc
LCW complained every year after his losses in WC.
...
...

TH complained about the umpire. I am sure everyone here except for China fans agree that the umpire did the wrong thing. Chinese players would have done the same thing.

LCW complains? About himself you mean?
I don't think that warrants calling him a whinger whinging about China...

vching

10-10-2007, 12:55 AM

why don't you start a open discussion on the walkover of indonesian XD pair when two indonesian pairs played against each other during the WC.

because that happened once. China's walkovers happened how many hundred times?

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 12:57 AM

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 12:57 AM

My main point was the influencing of the linesmen and the umpires. China vs Malaysia MD CM, TBS/OSH, China vs Malaysia MS CM, LD vs LCW etc etc. How come China cannot place a official from a neutral country? Can they not afford it? When everyone else can, why can't they?

I do remember seeing a China Masters game between Peter Gade and Lin Dan during which the Chinese linesmen (in fact, most were women) at Gade's end ruled quite a few 'Out's as 'In's. :eek:

Simply put, it was brazen misuse of official authority.
But if Gade was shocked, he didn't show it... he just smiled it away.

This kind of incident could happen anywhere.
And you bet it does too. :D

The point here is that only a handful of tournaments are held in China (or in its affiliated territories). It would also be trite to suggest that officials in other host nations would do China's bidding. As such, if cheating of the 'official' sort does happen, it is restricted to China-based events.

As for asking China to deploy 'neutral' umpires, that would be unfair unless every host nation similarly agrees to use third-country officials for tournaments.

Your pique is eminently understandable, vching.
But to convince those in authority, you will need to do better than raise allegations. :)

cooler

10-10-2007, 12:59 AM

because that happened once. China's walkovers happened how many hundred times?sounds like ur just jealous of china's good team management versus the disarrayed pbsi:rolleyes:

vching

10-10-2007, 01:00 AM

I do remember seeing a China Masters game between Peter Gade and Lin Dan during which the Chinese linesmen (in fact, most were women) at Gade's end ruled quite a few 'Out's as 'In's. :eek:

Simply put, it was brazen misuse of official authority.
But if Gade was shocked, he didn't show it... he just smiled it away.

This kind of incident could happen anywhere.
And you bet it does too. :D

The point here is that only a handful of tournaments are held in China (or in its affiliated territories). It would also be trite to suggest that officials in other host nations would do China's bidding. As such, if cheating of the 'official' sort does happen, it is restricted to China-based events.

As for asking China to deploy 'neutral' umpires, that would be unfair unless every host nation similarly agrees to use third-country officials for tournaments.

Your pique is eminently understandable, vching.
But to convince those in authority, you will need to do better than raise allegations. :)

There are a unusually large porpotion of tournaments in China:
Macau Open GP Gold
HK Open Super Series
China Masters Super Series
China Open Super Series
but then again, that is another matter...

I think it should be a rule that officials cannot be from the same country as the participant. That is in place in many if not all sports...

dannyang

10-10-2007, 01:01 AM

because that happened once. China's walkovers happened how many hundred times?

CY walkover during GO. the head of xxxxx (can't remember) from Germany already accuse against it. however, IBF found no evidence. and that German guy finally apollogized.

these happened how many hundred times?

vching

10-10-2007, 01:01 AM

hahahaa.............remove all those "cheatings" as you would and LD will still b no.1 in the world, wouldn't really matter much. MD players have much more sportsmanship and didn't say as much when they lost, simply accepted their loss as the opponents were better than them.

eh... I never said LD or china cheated..... I just said there is reasonable suspicion. LD is a legend, and I acknowledge it.

vching

10-10-2007, 01:02 AM

sounds like ur just jealous of china's good team management versus the disarrayed pbsi:rolleyes:

eh.... careful, don't incur the wrath of our hau-ge....

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:04 AM

vching

10-10-2007, 01:04 AM

CY walkover during GO. the head of xxxxx (can't remember) from Germany already accuse against it. however, IBF found no evidence. and that German guy finally apollogized.

these happened how many hundred times?I think that only happened once.

While on the other hand, many other walkovers have happened. But then again, the walkovers might be within the rules, but it is the officials from the same country that is the main issue with me...

Again, I repeat, I am not accusing China of cheating, just saying that it is suspicious.

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:08 AM

I have no problem with China winning. what I have a problem with, is China's WIN AT ALL COST attitude. Maybe you think that walking over is OK, it may not be against the rules, but I dislike it, but then again, that wasn't my main point.

dude, MAS, INA, DEN can also do walkover as much as they can like CHN, it's just that they don't have that many good players that can go into further rounds of most tournaments.;)

dannyang

10-10-2007, 01:10 AM

dude, MAS, INA, DEN can also do walkover as much as they can like CHN, it's just that they don't have that many good players that can go into further rounds of most tournaments.;)

absolutely right.......;)

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 01:11 AM

There are a unusually large porpotion of tournaments in China:
Macau Open GP Gold
HK Open Super Series
China Masters Super Series
China Open Super Series

That's not an unusually large proportion of tournaments.
In fact, that's just a few. :D

A calendar year has about 40 major tournaments and another 80 less prominent tournaments. :)

vching

10-10-2007, 01:12 AM

dude, MAS, INA, DEN can also do walkover as much as they can like CHN, it's just that they don't have that many good players that can go into further rounds of most tournaments.;)

i don't think so. At many of the crucial stages, DEN MAS and INA have not walkovered. SO07 first round - Hafiz defeats LCW. MO07SF Kenneth lost to Gade just off my mind now...

vching

10-10-2007, 01:12 AM

That's not an unusually large proportion of tournaments.
In fact, that's just a few. :D

A calendar year has about 40 major tournaments and another 80 less prominent tournaments. :)

3 SS and 1 GPGOLD in a country and you say its not unusually large?

Its about 400% what malaysia or indonesia gets!

dannyang

10-10-2007, 01:13 AM

in addition to restrict the number of players representing the same country, IBF should restrict the number of walkovers for each country as well.
that will be cool. :D

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:15 AM

i don't think so. At many of the crucial stages, DEN MAS and INA have not walkovered. SO07 first round - Hafiz defeats LCW. MO07SF Kenneth lost to Gade just off my mind now...

and that wasn't semi final or even quarter final right? did u notice that i mention further rounds?:cool:

vching

10-10-2007, 01:15 AM

in addition to restrict the number of players representing the same country, IBF should restrict the number of walkovers for each country as well.
that will be cool. :D

that will be err.... odd... :D

dannyang

10-10-2007, 01:16 AM

i don't think so. At many of the crucial stages, DEN MAS and INA have not walkovered. SO07 first round - Hafiz defeats LCW. MO07SF Kenneth lost to Gade just off my mind now...

perhaps the game between Hafiz and LCW was fixed.
Hafiz could get more points.

dannyang

10-10-2007, 01:16 AM

perhaps the game between Hafiz and LCW was fixed.
Hafiz could get more points.
just kidding, ha

vching

10-10-2007, 01:17 AM

and that wasn't semi final or even quarter final right? did u notice that i mention further rounds?:cool:

MS MO SEMI FINALS 2007 Kenneth lost to Gade...
thats semis...

in the 1990s when Indo dominated badminton, they didn't have walkovers... they won it on equal grounds with other opponents...

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:17 AM

dannyang

10-10-2007, 01:19 AM

vching

10-10-2007, 01:19 AM

in addition to restrict the number of players representing the same country, IBF should restrict the number of walkovers for each country as well.
that will be cool. :D
wakakakakwkakwkakwa:D:D:D:D:D:D might as well restrict how many gold can CHN win at each tournament.........:D:D:D:D:D:D

someone : "Not more than 2 gold this time, ok?? You guys won enough already last tournament"........

again, making a mockery of the issue. I have no problems with China winning 4/5 gold, although I think its a bit boring....
walkovers should not happen.... I think its against the spirit of the game...

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 01:23 AM

3 SS and 1 GPGOLD in a country and you say its not unusually large?
Its about 400% what malaysia or indonesia gets!

Why would it be 'unsually large'? :cool:

Consider this:
China is 29.1 times larger than Malaysia.
China is 4.99 times larger than Indonesia.
It's also 4.27 times larger than Malaysia + Indonesia.

I'd say that China is entitled, at the minimum, to 500% more. :D

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:23 AM

vching

10-10-2007, 01:25 AM

vching

10-10-2007, 01:26 AM

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 01:26 AM

wakakakakwkakwkakwa:D:D:D:D:D:D might as well restrict how many gold can CHN win at each tournament.........:D:D:D:D:D:D

someone : "Not more than 2 gold this time, ok?? You guys won enough already last tournament"........

I don't think you're referring to China's wins at the 2007 Japan Open :D

By the way... what, who or where is this wakakakakwkakwkakwa? :rolleyes:

vching

10-10-2007, 01:27 AM

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 01:27 AM

unfortunately, if you were to go by population, then the Americas and Africa have no badminton SS or GP GOLDS!!!

Er, that's not population.
That's geographical area. :D

vching

10-10-2007, 01:31 AM

Er, that's not population.
That's geographical area. :Di know for a fact that africa has 700 million people.
south america has 400 million people
north america has 500 million people

we should go by population and not geographical area

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:34 AM

I admit I have been a bit inflammatory in accusing China of cheating, although I didn't actually say that...

I just want to say this:
walkovers: sure, China is allowed to give walkovers. But is this really within the spirit of badminton? Is this best for the development of badminton

officials from same country: I still think this should be changed. Officials from same country should not be officials in which participants are from their country

3SS 1 GP in China - Its too many...

in the end, only the winners will be remembered throughout the history, not someone who has a good sportsmanship and has been constantly losing. i bet noone will remember KBH after 30 yrs time though he is a player with good sportsmanship. THE point here is TO WIN.

Regarding those walkovers, it is really up to CHN team to decide, to give walkover or not, it is none of our business. As CHN team knows that only winners are entitled into the hall of fame in badminton history.

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 01:34 AM

Why would it be 'unsually large'? :cool:

Consider this:
China is 29.1 times larger than Malaysia.
China is 4.99 times larger than Indonesia.
It's also 4.27 times larger than Malaysia + Indonesia.

I'd say that China is entitled, at the minimum, to 500% more. :D

Um, see what it's like on the basis of population: :cool:

Consider this:
China has 53 times more people than Malaysia.
China has 5.6 times more people than Indonesia.
It also has 5.09 times more people than Malaysia + Indonesia.

I'd now say that China is entitled, at the minimum, to 510% more. :D :D

vching

10-10-2007, 01:34 AM

why would you want to go by geographical area? So because Alaska is so big, it should have a tournament?

taufik-ist

10-10-2007, 01:35 AM

MS MO SEMI FINALS 2007 Kenneth lost to Gade...
thats semis...

in the 1990s when Indo dominated badminton, they didn't have walkovers... they won it on equal grounds with other opponents...

same as indonesia. as far as i know malaysia didn't have walkovers either :rolleyes: :cool:..

vching

10-10-2007, 01:35 AM

in the end, only the winners will be remembered throughout the history, not someone who has a good sportsmanship and has been constantly losing. i bet noone will remember KBH after 30 yrs time though he is a player with good sportsmanship. THE point here is TO WIN.

Regarding those walkovers, it is really up to CHN team to decide, to give walkover or not, it is none of our business. As CHN team knows that only winners are entitled into the hall of fame in badminton history.

but then china will be regarded as the cheaters that won.

vching

10-10-2007, 01:36 AM

Why would it be 'unsually large'? :cool:

Consider this:
China is 29.1 times larger than Malaysia.
China is 4.99 times larger than Indonesia.
It's also 4.27 times larger than Malaysia + Indonesia.

I'd say that China is entitled, at the minimum, to 500% more. :D
Um, see what it's like on the basis of population: :cool:

Consider this:
China has 53 times more people than Malaysia.
China has 5.6 times more people than Indonesia.
It also has 5.09 times more people than Malaysia + Indonesia.

I'd now say that China is entitled, at the minimum, to 510% more. :D

refer to my point of Africa and the Americas.
They don't have any SS or GP GOLDS?

vching

10-10-2007, 01:38 AM

but then china will be regarded as the cheaters that won.while indonesia, will be regarded as the supreme masters of badminton of the 1990s, without the sentence: 'but they cheated' stuck to their name. I know for a fact that many of my friends regard China as unenthical, not only in badminton, but other sports. They claim that China will win lots of medals in the beijing olympics because they take steroids and get away from it.

taufik-ist

10-10-2007, 01:38 AM

in the end, only the winners will be remembered throughout the history, not someone who has a good sportsmanship and has been constantly losing. i bet noone will remember KBH after 30 yrs time though he is a player with good sportsmanship. THE point here is TO WIN.

Regarding those walkovers, it is really up to CHN team to decide, to give walkover or not, it is none of our business. As CHN team knows that only winners are entitled into the hall of fame in badminton history.

then we should put all china players in the same half draws... :D :D.. :p

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:39 AM

ok now are we in a geography class?:p:p

just admit that CHN is better than the rest and others need to train much more harder to beat them. that's all.

it is quite meaningless to talk all about those suspiscious manner here. cos i know all of these will stop when TH, LCW or someone non CHN player win a gold in MS in the next tourney.;)

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:41 AM

then we should put all china players in the same half draws... :D :D.. :p

then they will secure a final in every tourney?:p:p:p

vching

10-10-2007, 01:41 AM

taufik-ist

10-10-2007, 01:43 AM

while indonesia, will be regarded as the supreme masters of badminton of the 1990s, without the sentence: 'but they cheated' stuck to their name. I know for a fact that many of my friends regard China as unenthical, not only in badminton, but other sports. They claim that China will win lots of medals in the beijing olympics because they take steroids and get away from it.

i remember.. china ever had doping scandals in swimming event in olympic (i forget when).. china suddenly ruled that event.. after deep investigation, the truth revealed, most of china swimmers used 'dopings' :rolleyes:

i don't mean to offense china :cool:

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:44 AM

i bet these arguments will b of non existence if TH could have just pocketed that gold.

vching

10-10-2007, 01:45 AM

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:46 AM

i remember.. china ever had doping scandals in swimming event in olympic (i forget when).. china suddenly ruled that event.. after deep investigation, the truth revealed, most of china swimmer used 'doping' :rolleyes:

i don't mean to offense china :cool:

why dont we just be fair n square. OG '08, everyone is allowed to use drugs.......:p:p:p then this will screw CHN's strategy right?

alfa-2

10-10-2007, 01:49 AM

or should we have different categories, MS with drugs, and MS w/o drugs.......like cars with and w/o turbo are in different categories.......hahahha.........

anyway does the drug affects the player performance like how a turbo would do to a car performance?

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 01:49 AM

refer to my point of Africa and the Americas.
They don't have any SS or GP GOLDS?

What's Africa doing in a discussion on badminton? :confused::confused:

huangkwokhau

10-10-2007, 01:54 AM

ur a hypocrite. When TH lost, TH fans screams bloody cheating on china side. When TH win, no accusation except cheering that TH is the sweetest smelling thing ever.

First u claim china is a cheater, then u say we need china and BWF is a suck up. Are u too afraid to say BWF is guilty too by association with china's cheating? Be a man, take a position.

First u said had CJ cheated by tampering the shuttles. Later u backtracked and said you were just quoting 'what u over heard' from foreign coaches and what u had read from vhing's blog, and cries 'don't accuse me cooler' LOL
Look at u now, endless followup postings on the same cheating allegation on china. What a hypocrite...

Bottom line is, if u can't convince me and some others here that china is cheating, what is the point of asking or writing (by vching) to BWF requesting an investigation into chinese's cheating practice? You're a joke here, and BWF see u and vching the same and will feed the request letter to the shredder. Don't u dare to make BC/BF look bad in the international scene as majority of us here don't belong to your joker camp.

Wow...you are really sucha loser!!!!
Pls do not make BC look bad because of you.

Majority of us do not belong to your joke as well..

I did not say that Chn cheat at all....pls read my post!!!
CJ tampering shuttles was reported and discussed by other coaches...I just reported.....ARE U BLIND ENOUGH?

As always...you are so weak and claiming that I backtrack etc.....LOL...you are known to accuse anybody..nothing is new here bout you...face it!!!

BC does not belong to you at all....

Well...at least I got to know a few players and coaches...you???what contribution you have to make BC look good? how dare you for you to say that I make BC look bad....what you do is crying and attacking people...

I never suggest VCHING to write this investigation to BWF...he has a right to do that....WHY BLAME ME???

BWF is organization that everyone can write or call to talk to them....you have no right to ban us if we want to write or complain.....

You are really such a loser...13 K post is really BS....you are real a hipocrite....

You do make BC look bad...

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 02:00 AM

well, you guys seem to be losing it :o

vching

10-10-2007, 02:00 AM

What's Africa doing in a discussion on badminton? :confused::confused:

because you said that because China is larger, they should get more tournaments. So i am asking why africa dosent get SS and GPS?

huangkwokhau

10-10-2007, 02:03 AM

well, you guys seem to be losing it :o
as usual..Cooler accused me again...backtrack, etc....everybody knows that I did not make the report...I have witness, Fastdrop with me....

Oldhand

10-10-2007, 02:04 AM

because you said that because China is larger, they should get more tournaments. So i am asking why africa dosent get SS and GPS?

Er, this question packs as much logic as...
... why doesn't the hunchbacked orangutan use a calcified oxymoron to replenish Ukraine's stocks of ammonium salicylicate? :D

cooler

10-10-2007, 02:04 AM

again, I am not whinging. I am just saying its suspicious. I am drawing no conclusions and am not trying to insinuate anything. I just want to say, if China is not 'cheating', why are you so wound up? It will be beneficial for them, they will be cleared.

What i don't understand is why everyone is so against such a transparant action.... unless China cannot afford to, and their fans know it too?

and please.... stop taking Indonesia as a conversation changer or scapegoat.

take macau MS final, the umpire was from Singapore and refused TH's request for shuttle change and floor mop. Why dont you also see that the umpire maybe suspecting TH was wasting time to cheat and sneak in a mini rest. TH fans suspects chen jin cheating while the umpire suspects taufik cheating habit. I rather trust the umpire trustment as he has way more experience than most fans plus he is closest to the court. The umpire declined taufik request for a reason.