LD wins..........

[alfa-2]

I think LD outplayed LCW............i think the umpire did the right thing, and maybe the shot was really in, LD wouldn't have shouted it that way if it was really out.

The reason why LCW lost:-

1) LD attacked more with his lethal smashes
2) LD's perfect play with excellent net play and less unforced errors in 2nd/3rd set
3) LCW's defense wasn't that solid compared to his usual ones when he played with LD, especially he didnt dive that much (maybe to avoid aggravate his current tendon injury).
4) LCW had more unforced errors

[wilfredlgf]

Agreed, agreed, agreed and agreed.

As for (3) that was my thought in the first place - he was in Lin Dan's mercy simply because he can't really move he wanted, ending up with so many easy shots from LD.

LD looked like he wasn't pleased to be beating a rival who was at 75% eh? :)

[alfa-2]

Something that i miss so much from LCW is his solid defense................u know that last minute kinda of saves that are returned perfectly..........

Rest more LCW. Don't want to miss him in action next year. It has been quite a year for LCW.

LD must have been really happy to revenge his loss recently to LCW. He did great today. Flawless game by LD in the 2nd/3rd set.

Anyway, did anyone notice that LCW didn't bother to do jump smashing in the 3rd set like he did in the 1st set??

[alfa-2]

Agreed, agreed, agreed and agreed.

As for (3) that was my thought in the first place - he was in Lin Dan's mercy simply because he can't really move he wanted, ending up with so many easy shots from LD.

LD looked like he wasn't pleased to be beating a rival who was at 75% eh? :)

if LCW has no injury (100%) and play the same game as today, he would have lost to LD also.

[wilfredlgf]

if LCW has no injury (100%) and play the same game as today, he would have lost to LD also.
At least LCW would put up a better fight, I'd imagine.

LD looked at LCW as if saying, "Oh yeah, he gave up. Ok".

[alfa-2]

At least LCW would put up a better fight, I'd imagine.

LD looked at LCW as if saying, "Oh yeah, he gave up. Ok".

i believe that LCW didn't give up at any point with his much infamous fighting spirit.

[ants]

if LCW has no injury (100%) and play the same game as today, he would have lost to LD also.

Yes i agree. Lindan played well today...but i think it was not his best game yet. LCW had a different strategy in the 1st set. But it did not work on the 2nd and 3rd set and at the same time LCW had some unforce errors and did not have his usual netgame. Kudos to LindaN to close the SS series with the win.

[wilfredlgf]

I agree that Lin Dan's the superior but it's either aggravate the tendon and miss out on the big finale and even the OG if it's serious enough, or fight hard and still lose, and aggravate the injury.

[Pemuda]

I enjoyed the match. And I am sure hand to heart, we can all agree that LD outplayed LCW today. Coming back from a set down, LD showed his composure and range of shots.

[Birdwood]

Too many BCers are arguing in the other thread and too hard to get things straight. I'm joining you guys here. It's only one game that LD won today and shouldn't be a too big deal to anyone. The match could go either way and they both played well.

With the way LCW played in the 1st game, it sure looked like he was going to win the match easily. LD was no match for LCW and no real chance to smash.

But LD turned table around in 2nd game with game change. Using his backhand, LD played LCW's backhand more, which limited LCW's smashing power. LD also increased his defense against LCW's offensive play. Moving faster and fired-up motivation also help LD.

In third game we saw luck was clear on LD's side with some real nice play. LCW might be tired at that point and did some half-hearted smashes. It was very atypical to see LCW making so many mistakes and missed so many shots.

LD out-played LCW in HK Open today, but I don't think he was at his best. He won more because LCW did not play well enough. Congratulation to LD to turn things around, and pulled himself together and out off a potential defeat. Hope they will meet again soon and outcome between them are always hard to predict.

[dannyang]

[quote=alfa-2;742154]I think LD outplayed LCW............i think the umpire did the right thing, and maybe the shot was really in, LD wouldn't have shouted it that way if it was really out.

yes, I agree. TH shot was really in.
I think LCW is frustrated by the changing call, but not the bad call.

[X Ball]

Athough I hate to admit it, LD is a hell of a player. If one is half-injured or employs the wrong strategy LD is not forgiving.

My reading of the match is LCW employed the wrong strategy - he can beat LD as shown in the first game. But that first game perhaps took the toll and LD was able to take control. The 3rd game was clearly more of LD exerting his fitness.

I have to give it to LD. On the year as a whole, he is the most successful on tour. But let us not forget LCW, who has shown a lot of courage and improvement throughout the whole year. If it wasn't him, I think I would have lost interest in badminton long time ago.

My respect to both players, great players of this era.

[dannyang]

Athough I hate to admit it, LD is a hell of a player. If one is half-injured or employs the wrong strategy LD is not forgiving.

My reading of the match is LCW employed the wrong strategy - he can beat LD as shown in the first game. But that first game perhaps took the toll and LD was able to take control. The 3rd game was clearly more of LD exerting his fitness.

I have to give it to LD. On the year as a whole, he is the most successful on tour. But let us not forget LCW, who has shown a lot of courage and improvement throughout the whole year. If it wasn't him, I think I would have lost interest in badminton long time ago.

My respect to both players, great players of this era.

en. LCW has improved a lot. I'm surprised with his defense during last few tournaments.

[eaglehelang]

In third game we saw luck was clear on LD's side with some real nice play. LCW might be tired at that point and did some half-hearted smashes. It was very atypical to see LCW making so many mistakes and missed so many shots.

LD out-played LCW in HK Open today, but I don't think he was at his best. He won more because LCW did not play well enough. Congratulation to LD to turn things around, and pulled himself together and out off a potential defeat. Hope they will meet again soon and outcome between them are always hard to predict.

Yup and yup. LCW didnt employ his usual "dive to save shuttle" much. The one time he fell down, RTM Commentator also worried about his injured knee.

[jasonmarc]

Indeed,...LD played well enough to win the match...he is still the best MS in the world for at least for now...

But...i think the gap between these two players have been narrowed a lot...since LCW recovered from this year 7 months lows form.........so..
they will keep beating each other in the coming tournaments if they meet again...

[abedeng]

Congrats to Lin Dan for his victory, and for LCW for making sure the match is still competitive despite his injury.

LCW did the right tactics in 1st game, but once he had the changeover, the drift doesn't allow him to maintain the same tactics. You can see from the position where he was dominating the net, it suddenly shifted LD's way with more net cord shots winning him points.

Plus LD used a lot more direct attacks in the 2nd half of the match.

[Konnichiwa]

90% nervous lin dan >>>>>>>>> 100 % LCW

[Tjun Tjun]

Actually I thought LCW had a chance to catch up somewhere in the middle of the final set but then he had several successive unlucky net shots which stubbornly refused to cross over and a couple of deceptive trick shots he tried and failed....and from that point onwards it was uphill all the way as LD did not let up an inch......still at 15-20 I was hoping against hope that LCW could cough up another Houdini act (like the one he did in MO in Kuching) and force a dueuce and wrap up the match.....that was not to be ......well I hope LCW will turn the table the next time round.......but now I congratulate LD for his superb performance and victory which he thoroughly deserves.

[xymaerts]

I agree with 1,3,4.. But not No.2. LD is just too lucky for a few happy lucky net shot. U can see him apologized few time for the HAPPY NET SHOT.
LCW play well and he did TOO many errors in G2 & G3...His net shot & drop just can't pass through the net... Even his silent smashes just went wide..

I am not too worry about LCW's defeat..LCW is on par with LD just today his make too many errors..
This is the main reason he lost..


I think LD outplayed LCW............i think the umpire did the right thing, and maybe the shot was really in, LD wouldn't have shouted it that way if it was really out.

The reason why LCW lost:-

1) LD attacked more with his lethal smashes
2) LD's perfect play with excellent net play and less unforced errors in 2nd/3rd set
3) LCW's defense wasn't that solid compared to his usual ones when he played with LD, especially he didnt dive that much (maybe to avoid aggravate his current tendon injury).
4) LCW had more unforced errors

[z3048018]

well, it nearly went through his racquet!!!

[coolhandluke]

LCW was clearly fatigued by end of Game 2 and by the third game he was clearly living on borrowed time. The first shot that goes kaput when you are tired is the around-the-head shot and as the match progressed further, you can clearly see LCW reaches the shot later that he usually does and commit a lot of silly errors. Same with the weak unforced errors to the net -- he could not get the lift needed at all. The player with the better fitness won and that was LD today. I would love to see a fully healthy LCW go against LD and I'm sure that the gap between them has decreased over the past year.

[fastdrop]

Athough I hate to admit it, LD is a hell of a player. If one is half-injured or employs the wrong strategy LD is not forgiving.

My reading of the match is LCW employed the wrong strategy - he can beat LD as shown in the first game. But that first game perhaps took the toll and LD was able to take control. The 3rd game was clearly more of LD exerting his fitness.

I have to give it to LD. On the year as a whole, he is the most successful on tour. But let us not forget LCW, who has shown a lot of courage and improvement throughout the whole year. If it wasn't him, I think I would have lost interest in badminton long time ago.

My respect to both players, great players of this era.

I totally agree with your observations. Much that I want LCW to win, Lin Dan played really well today and luck obviously was on his side. Congratulations to Lin Dan.
For LCW: you did play good today. For me you will always be a winner. There is nothing wrong in losing, it helps you improve and learn from it.
Move on and more power to you my idol.:)

[badMania]

Athough I hate to admit it, LD is a hell of a player. If one is half-injured or employs the wrong strategy LD is not forgiving.

My reading of the match is LCW employed the wrong strategy - he can beat LD as shown in the first game. But that first game perhaps took the toll and LD was able to take control. The 3rd game was clearly more of LD exerting his fitness.

I have to give it to LD. On the year as a whole, he is the most successful on tour. But let us not forget LCW, who has shown a lot of courage and improvement throughout the whole year. If it wasn't him, I think I would have lost interest in badminton long time ago.

My respect to both players, great players of this era.

Yup, like fastdrop, I simply have to agree with X-Ball's fair and unbiased comments on both players' performance today. I can see that Lee Chong Wei was slightly affected by his niggling injury. However, let's not discredit his achievements over the past 1 year. Besides Lin Dan, LCW is the ONLY PLAYER who wins at least 3 Super Series titles and that's a HUGE ACHIEVEMENTS!

[xuguochuan]

I think LD outplayed LCW............i think the umpire did the right thing, and maybe the shot was really in, LD wouldn't have shouted it that way if it was really out.

The reason why LCW lost:-

1) LD attacked more with his lethal smashes
2) LD's perfect play with excellent net play and less unforced errors in 2nd/3rd set
3) LCW's defense wasn't that solid compared to his usual ones when he played with LD, especially he didnt dive that much (maybe to avoid aggravate his current tendon injury).
4) LCW had more unforced errors

The 'number one' reason why LD won:-
1) LD got enough rest
1) china new 'walkover strategy' works great (in both china and hong kong open)

[Smichz]

The 'number one' reason why LD won:-
1) LD got enough rest

Not really..since he still got a gf to take care of.:D

[Netasia]

as much as i can tell, i dont think the HKO officials delibrately helping the chinese players, unlike in CO. They might have made some bad calls but it happens elsewhere too. Nevertheless I still believe that LCW can take on LD in OG2008

[zqloy]

Just watched the match, congrats to LD as he was the better player of the day. LCW on the other hand, was a lil impatient in the rallies this time, he should hv tried to slow down the pace instead of playing LD's game. Definitely wrong strategy.
And also, nice to see some mutual respect shown btw both players.

[Birdwood]

The 'number one' reason why LD won:-
1) LD got enough rest
1) china new 'walkover strategy' works great (in both china and hong kong open)

Ask what causing the "walkoever strategy" in the first place :confused:. If China has so many good players, it's walkover even if they play. Competitions among the Chinese players in tournaments looked more like practicing to me. So what's the point playing or showing off?

The questions here should really be how other countries can produce more players like LCD, WMC, etc., who can stop the Chinese from sweeping MS, WS, and WD's titles. You can't blame the Chinese for the rapid decline of TH's competitiveness after last OG.

As X Ball said "If it wasn't him, I think I would have lost interest in badminton long time ago." (meaning LCW). It's very true. Who wants to see an all Chinese finals or even worse semi-finals. If that happens, it would be the "china new 'walkover strategy' " whether you like it or not :mad:.

From HO 07, I still see great hope that badminton tournaments can be competitive and enjoyable to watch. XD and MD titles were won competitively by other countries. Why can they also produce more good players in other departments.

So please don't blame the Chinese for winning, try to find the cause and solutions to fix losing as well :rolleyes:.

The famous speech by JFK was "Ask not .... - ask what you can do ...". Maybe to badminton in your place :p.

[ye333]

Exactly! I think LCW was thinking too much after the 21:9 first game. He changed his tactic and began to try to out-pace LD -- which he was unable to do even when he has no injury!


Just watched the match, congrats to LD as he was the better player of the day. LCW on the other hand, was a lil impatient in the rallies this time, he should hv tried to slow down the pace instead of playing LD's game. Definitely wrong strategy.
And also, nice to see some mutual respect shown btw both players.

[Birdwood]

LCD did not change his tactic. He just could not do it with LD getting into the shape and form. Also LD played to LCW's weekest link, which is his backhand side. LCW could not smash with LD's push or clear on backhand. If he jumped smash on backhand side on LD's high clear, he's out off the position to come back in 2nd and 3rd games.

[Whipper]

my observation on Lindan

LD has been trying to change his way from forcible attacks to flexible control,which is apparently more fledged in practice. one can not always feature puissant smashes of his style as time flows by.

Usually the main feature of Chinese badminton training is fully usage of the court, without focusing especially on net ball skills. whatever in MS or MD games you often see that Chinese players lose when they fail to make it at the front court, yet when the fighting zone gets expanded, they will morelikely win.

It's normal for a trough to lead modifications, LD was walking through his gloomy days until the HongKong Open. However, it's still his typical tactic that brought him the champion--speeding it up and powerful attacks.

In the first set LD was trying to control, but found himself controlled from the freezing begining, and strong misfit cost him bunch of unforced errors. undeniably, LD has improved a lot of his net play, but still inferior to LCW and TH in this respect, which accounts for why the following sets saw otherwise when LD reduced net confrontation with LCW and swiftened the kumite, and ,finally got LCW sweating hard in durative turning runs (LCW changed his shirt in the 3rd set).

Like TH, LCW is physically inferior yet maybe technically superior to LD, therefore perfect defence, restraint of opponents at the front court and few suddent smashes are usually their leading cards. however, when Physical strength runs out, errors will accompany all their efforts.

In term of all-round progress, I prefer Chenjin to any other Chinese player, he is the promising future of Chinese team.

I wont say LD has got a muscle win, but LCW was not technically defeated.
like everyone here, I hope to see more close up fights among LD,LCW and TH, whomever win or lose.

[cooler]

Congrats to Lin Dan for his victory, and for LCW for making sure the match is still competitive despite his injury.

LCW did the right tactics in 1st game, but once he had the changeover, the drift doesn't allow him to maintain the same tactics. You can see from the position where he was dominating the net, it suddenly shifted LD's way with more net cord shots winning him points.

Plus LD used a lot more direct attacks in the 2nd half of the match.

newb analysis.
any tactics would had worked in the first game against ld, ld was playing barely at 50% of redline:rolleyes:

[cooler]

LCW was clearly fatigued by end of Game 2 and by the third game he was clearly living on borrowed time. The first shot that goes kaput when you are tired is the around-the-head shot and as the match progressed further, you can clearly see LCW reaches the shot later that he usually does and commit a lot of silly errors. Same with the weak unforced errors to the net -- he could not get the lift needed at all. The player with the better fitness won and that was LD today. I would love to see a fully healthy LCW go against LD and I'm sure that the gap between them has decreased over the past year.i dont see LD playing that great at all in HK final against lcw. LD made lots of errors too.

IMO, bcl played much much better in china open final beating a so called fit lcw than what lin dan had played in HK final but of course the final china open ms final was marred by controversies.

[cooler]

The 'number one' reason why LD won:-
1) LD got enough rest
1) china new 'walkover strategy' works great (in both china and hong kong open)
whiz kid taufik had gotten more rest than lcw and ld, why your logic didnt work here for taufik?

[ye333]

Of course it doesn't work for Taufik. Arguably Taufik is less fit than you so how can we use LD/LCW's standards on him. :D


whiz kid taufik had gotten more rest than lcw and ld, why your logic didnt work here for taufik?

[ye333]

I disagree. Yesterday's LD can beat Chn Open's BCL ??:21, 21:10, 21:10. BCL will have no answer to LD's variation of pace. :cool:


i dont see LD playing that great at all in HK final against lcw. LD made lots of errors too.

IMO, bcl played much much better in china open final beating a so called fit lcw than what lin dan had played in HK final but of course the final china open ms final was marred by controversies.

[cooler]

Ask what causing the "walkoever strategy" in the first place :confused:. If China has so many good players, it's walkover even if they play. Competitions among the Chinese players in tournaments looked more like practicing to me. So what's the point playing or showing off?

The questions here should really be how other countries can produce more players like LCD, WMC, etc., who can stop the Chinese from sweeping MS, WS, and WD's titles. You can't blame the Chinese for the rapid decline of TH's competitiveness after last OG.

As X Ball said "If it wasn't him, I think I would have lost interest in badminton long time ago." (meaning LCW). It's very true. Who wants to see an all Chinese finals or even worse semi-finals. If that happens, it would be the "china new 'walkover strategy' " whether you like it or not :mad:.

From HO 07, I still see great hope that badminton tournaments can be competitive and enjoyable to watch. XD and MD titles were won competitively by other countries. Why can they also produce more good players in other departments.

So please don't blame the Chinese for winning, try to find the cause and solutions to fix losing as well :rolleyes:.

The famous speech by JFK was "Ask not .... - ask what you can do ...". Maybe to badminton in your place :p.
well, it is easy to find a scapegoat or excuse than to accept one's own weakness or fault. If the alleged walkout/walkover tactic employed by lyb is yielding titles for the china team, my question is, why don't other teams do it too? Don't tell me other countries are all sweet rose smelling and ethical unlike lyb. For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final? INA can employ soni and santoso to help out taufik too. My simple solution to MAL and INA MS problem is to have HH, roslin, soni, simon to get into QF and/or SF so china can't use walkover or walkout tactics. Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

[twobeer]

well, it is easy to find a scapegoat or excuse than to accept one's own weakness or fault. If the alleged walkout/walkover tactic employed by lyb is yielding titles for the china team, my question is, why don't other teams do it too? Don't tell me other countries are all sweet rose smelling and ethical unlike lyb. For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final? INA can employ soni and santoso to help out taufik too. My simple solution to MAL and INA MS problem is to have HH, roslin, soni, simon to get into QF and/or SF so china can't use walkover or walkout tactics. Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

Your solution seems almost like if we are unhappy with the linecalls in China Open, we should ensure lincalls are also unfair in Malasyain Open??? Fighting bad with bad is never a good idea...or what is the saying.. Two wrongs don't make a right?

Personally I think personal pride and inter team competetion makes Danes, Indos, Malaysians etc try to beat eachother when faced in the tournaments...

We should be happy other coaches than LYB seems to think it is an important aspect for wins to be on the court, not off the court!!

It would not be accepted by eruopean players to w/o to help their "team"-mates.. simply beacuse MS is not seen here as a "team" event! Kenneth will ALWAYS try to beat Gade if faced, for example...

/Twobeer

[ye333]

Since when does requiring "fair game" become "whining"?

And about your "other teams just don't have the chance" theory, there is one counter-example in this very HKO. Why did the IND XDs indeed play a 3-set semi-final? And don't forget that among the four players, three of them are not young (Limpele, Nova, Vita). Why didn't Flandy/Vita just WO or lost quickly to help Nova/Lilyana save energy?

Here is the question I asked Bananakid: If one works hard and becomes better than others, does it mean one has the right to cheat?

My answer is an absolute "NO". Maybe you have a different answer.



well, it is easy to find a scapegoat or excuse than to accept one's own weakness or fault. If the alleged walkout/walkover tactic employed by lyb is yielding titles for the china team, my question is, why don't other teams do it too? Don't tell me other countries are all sweet rose smelling and ethical unlike lyb. For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final? INA can employ soni and santoso to help out taufik too. My simple solution to MAL and INA MS problem is to have HH, roslin, soni, simon to get into QF and/or SF so china can't use walkover or walkout tactics. Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

[cooler]

Your solution seems almost like if we are unhappy with the linecalls in China Open, we should ensure lincalls are also unfair in Malasyain Open??? Fighting bad with bad is never a good idea...or what is the saying.. Two wrongs don't make a right?

Personally I think personal pride and inter team competetion makes Danes, Indos, Malaysians etc try to beat eachother when faced in the tournaments...

We should be happy other coaches than LYB seems to think it is an important aspect for wins to be on the court, not off the court!!

It would not be accepted by eruopean players to w/o to help their "team"-mates.. simply beacuse MS is not seen here as a "team" event! Kenneth will ALWAYS try to beat Gade if faced, for example...

/TwobeerNo, what i'm saying is what china alleged doing (WO's) are legit and other countries can stop them if their players play good enough to get to the QF or SF. Concentrate on improving their players instead looking for excuses. If soni, simon, HH, roslin, PG, KJ had all play better, lcw would have a better chance to beat Lin dan, maybe even eliminate LD before the SF.

As for the controversial line calls, i can't make comments about it because I didnt witness any of it. The percentage of bad versus accurate calls i have no idea.

[nibaxiang]

Your solution seems almost like if we are unhappy with the linecalls in China Open, we should ensure lincalls are also unfair in Malasyain Open??? Fighting bad with bad is never a good idea...or what is the saying.. Two wrongs don't make a right?

Personally I think personal pride and inter team competetion makes Danes, Indos, Malaysians etc try to beat eachother when faced in the tournaments...

We should be happy other coaches than LYB seems to think it is an important aspect for wins to be on the court, not off the court!!

It would not be accepted by eruopean players to w/o to help their "team"-mates.. simply beacuse MS is not seen here as a "team" event! Kenneth will ALWAYS try to beat Gade if faced, for example...

/Twobeer

Well, good point. I have to say. But instead of asking everybody to agree with the value and culture you value the most, should BWF make the ONLY set of rules & regulations to let people follow? Samething applies to our daily life. We have laws to govern things, other than ethic or moral standards.

[cooler]

Well, good point. I have to say. But instead of asking everybody to agree with the value and culture you value the most, should BWF make the ONLY set of rules & regulations to let people follow? Samething applies to our daily life. We have laws to govern things, other than ethic or moral standards.

from my limited memory, i think ibf first used ranking to seed the players in drawing out each tournament. Then some countries complained that china is fixing certain matches so ibf then tweak the draw by separating chinese players if the seeding method ends up having too many chinese players on one side of the ladder. Afterward, new complaints come in saying they can't get ahead because ibf was tweaking the draw and their players have to compete with chinese players too early and can't reach the QF/SF. Then bwf gone back to making the draws base purely on ranking. Guess what, we now have the some old complaints, match fixing.

i bet bwf will toss vching's petition into the garbage bin. Same old same old.

[Birdwood]

Of course it doesn't work for Taufik. Arguably Taufik is less fit than you so how can we use LD/LCW's standards on him. :D

I don't know why TH is less fit? And why we should exclude him from the comparisons? Earlier we have xuguochuan's argument about "LD got enough rest", now we have more excuse for TH's condition. I thought he had plenty or even more rest than LCW and LD. But LD won handsomely against him.

Try to be fair here, if you want to compare, try to put everything on the table, apple to apple, one category a time. We don't want shifting sand or targets or apply different standards in our discussions or do we :confused:.

[ye333]

Everyone knows TH is not fit, just like everyone knows Mia Audina is ... er... not thin. As to the reason, how about "TH does little training"? :D

Anyway, I am just trying to be funny. Yes even TH (!) does better when he has more rest, and that's why he skipped China Open, since he knew he would have no chance to beat BCL without enough rest. :) As to the reason why TH lost to LD (actually it's arguable whether TH had more rest than LD since LD got knocked out in the 1st round in China Open and TH competed in the national championship), may I mention currently LD is simply better than TH? ;)


I don't know why TH is less fit? And why we should exclude him from the comparisons? Earlier we have xuguochuan's argument about "LD got enough rest", now we have more excuse for TH's condition. I thought he had plenty or even more rest than LCW and LD. But LD won handsomely against him.

Try to be fair here, if you want to compare, try to put everything on the table, apple to apple, one category a time. We don't want shifting sand or targets or apply different standards in our discussions or do we :confused:.

[Birdwood]

Since when does requiring "fair game" become "whining"?

And about your "other teams just don't have the chance" theory, there is one counter-example in this very HKO. Why did the IND XDs indeed play a 3-set semi-final? And don't forget that among the four players, three of them are not young (Limpele, Nova, Vita). Why didn't Flandy/Vita just WO or lost quickly to help Nova/Lilyana save energy?

Here is the question I asked Bananakid: If one works hard and becomes better than others, does it mean one has the right to cheat?

My answer is an absolute "NO". Maybe you have a different answer.

Try to be more specific about players cheating. If they do, they will be ejected from the matches immediately. If you have problems with linesmen, umpires, coaches, etc., please bring the complaints to badminton officials and organizers. Don't put the blames for walkout or walkover on players. They belong to organizations. Maybe they were told to do so, but that's not cheating on players' part. Everyone could have injuries, excuses, unhappiness with line calls, etc. for not playing. That's within their rights to do so for whatever reasons. And how hard they play is also up to them. You can't say Chinese players finished their internal competitions quickly or gave walkout and walkover to teammates are cheating :eek:. They are boring and maybe not very professional, but certainly not cheating. Please make the distinction in the definitions. No matter how we are unhappy to see those things happening, it's no way any close to cheating as we all know it in legal term and in the world of sports, including badminton, unless you are referring amateue sports :mad:.

[ye333]

So you think none of the WOs is cheating...

It's impossible to "be more specific", otherwise there will be some criteria to check such cheating (yes I still think most of the WOs are cheating). I think not a single sport has a good way to check "cheating". :cool:


Try to be more specific about players cheating. If they do, they will be ejected from the matches immediately. If you have problems with linesmen, umpires, coaches, etc., please bring the complaints to badminton officials and organizers. Don't put the blames for walkout or walkover on players. They belong to organizations. Maybe they were told to do so, but that's not cheating on players' part. Everyone could have injuries, excuses, unhappiness with line calls, etc. for not playing. That's within their rights to do so for whatever reasons. And how hard they play is also up to them. You can't say Chinese players finished their internal competitions quickly or gave walkout and walkover to teammates are cheating :eek:. They are boring and maybe not very professional, but certainly not cheating. Please make the distinction in the definitions. No matter how we are unhappy to see those things happening, it's no way any close to cheating as we all know it in legal term and in the world of sports, including badminton, unless you are referring amateue sports :mad:.

[lipans]

I am aggree that LCW lil impation this time. Usually, in his new game strategy he does not use smash very much , but he did much of it. It cause him his energy as LD defence is so solid to return back his shot.

He should use his usual game play with many drop and tricky shots. Just when the opponent get offguard, use the deadly smash to kill the shuttle.

[eaglehelang]

Today's local newspaper have them talking about the dubious line calls, LCW looking tired in 2nd & 3rd game.

NST : http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Monday/Sport/2099520/Article/index_html
"Chong Wei didn't show any signs of an injured right knee as he came out firing on all cylinders to take the first game 21-9 in a ferocious manner.

Lin Dan looked lethargic but Chong Wei's attacking game was so solid the former never had no chance.

However, Lin Dan's resilience and class showed as he put Chong Wei under tremendous pressure in the second game....

"Quite a lot of his (Lin Dan's) shots were outside. Everybody could see it," complained Chong Wei after the match.

"This also happened in the China Open final. Maybe playing in Hong Kong is the same as in China."

Chong Wei may have a point regarding poor umpiring and equally bad line calls but the Malaysian must get used to all that quickly as it could happen again in next year's Beijing Olympics. "




The Star :http://www.thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2007/12/3/sports/19645760&sec=sports


“Quite a lot of his shots were outside. Everybody could see it,” said Chong Wei, who lost last week's China Open final to Bao Chunlai.
“This also happened in the China Open final. Maybe playing in Hong Kong is the same as in China.” His claims marred an absorbing final between badminton's top two ranked players, although Chong Wei was also hampered by a knee injury he sustained in October...."

[FU4EVA]

So you think none of the WOs is cheating...

It's impossible to "be more specific", otherwise there will be some criteria to check such cheating (yes I still think most of the WOs are cheating). I think not a single sport has a good way to check "cheating". :cool:

It is better to regard it as a strategy... saying cheating is far too much... :)

[Birdwood]

So you think none of the WOs is cheating...

It's impossible to "be more specific", otherwise there will be some criteria to check such cheating (yes I still think most of the WOs are cheating). I think not a single sport has a good way to check "cheating". :cool:

Sure back up your claims by showing the facts. Have the international badminton officials investigate your cheating claims and take away the medals. Otherwise your accusations are useless and groundless, and inflammatory at the best.

As much as I'd like to see LCW and TH winning, I hate to see you making personal attacks on players unless you can show the proof. We own players whether Mas, Ina, Chn, etc. respect at the minimum. Without them, we wouldn't be here discussing the SS tournaments.

Try to look positively to the future. Rules are rules. You want rules to be changed, start another thread or a movement. Don't need to be sour grapes.

[indra]

The 'number one' reason why LD won:-
1) LD got enough rest
1) china new 'walkover strategy' works great (in both china and hong kong open)

AGree....100%

Looking at the way LCW played...I guess LCW adopted TH's style...very economic and efficient...His smash has been superb...

Yes...LD beat LCW because of the above two main reasons...

[coolhandluke]

National chief coach Yap Kim Hock said in a telephone interview that he was satisfied despite Chong Wei's loss.

“Chong Wei controlled the first game but in the second game he looked tired, as he had been playing too many tournaments.

“His recurring knee problem also affected his game. Lin Dan looked the more fresher player.

“Chong Wei will take a one-week break before resuming training,” added Kim Hock.This is pretty much what I gathered from viewing the match too. LCW was showing signs of fatigue as early as the second game and by the third game he was making uncharacteristic unforced errors and falling back to trying tricky shots.

I hope LCW takes a break long enough to heal up his knee. As such, reaching the finals of three consecutive super series and winning one in dominant fashion is a remarkable achievement in itself. He did his best and that's all one can ask for.

Btw, I thought the officiating was pretty good in HK Open unlike the infamous China Open. Outside of one egregious blown call, there weren't many bad calls. LCW lost to a player who was in a better shape on this day.

[ye333]

First, it's impossible for a fan to obtain such evidence. Does that mean fans should refrain from making judgments? I say no. You can disagree. In fact fans of other sports are doing such things all the time. Imagine a soccer match, in which the players are dubiously lethargic. Do you think the spectators should refrain from shouting "fake! cheating!"? I say no. You can disagree.

Yes we owe the players for those enjoyable matches. But don't forget they also owe us for their oppotunity to make a living as badminton players. Without fans there will be no need to hold any tournaments.


Sure back up your claims by showing the facts. Have the international badminton officials investigate your cheating claims and take away the medals. Otherwise your accusations are useless and groundless, and inflammatory at the best.

As much as I'd like to see LCW and TH winning, I hate to see you making personal attacks on players unless you can show the proof. We own players whether Mas, Ina, Chn, etc. respect at the minimum. Without them, we wouldn't be here discussing the SS tournaments.

Try to look positively to the future. Rules are rules. You want rules to be changed, start another thread or a movement. Don't need to be sour grapes.

[sonnymak]

LD played well. To beat LCW, I have said before you must be patient. LD was Patient in the 2nd and 3rd and tried not to go for fantastic shots. He only attack when he was ready and not all the time. LD also was quick to come to the net. LCW lost on 2 grounds, one: more unforced errors than LD esp at 5-5 in the 3rd that gave LD a 5 point lead.

From then on LD just maintained his game whilst LCW cut back on his errors and were able to slowly closing in. One last tactical error, the flick serve by LCW gave LD point 20. But even if he did not use that the score would be around 21-18 LD favour the errors at 5-5 was the turning point.

I dont agree LCW 's defence was not good. In fact there were so many instances when he return LD smashes and twice sucessfully countered attack to the oos and ahs of the crowd.

LCW and BCL are highly skillful players who can make the suttle do a lot of things . LCW and BCL are equal in their resective strength and weaknesses. LD isnt as skillful as the LCW and BCL but he is quicker, the body obey his mind faster and he can also think very fast in Court and has power punches often executed at right moments. LD has very few unforced errors in his game. that what separate LD from LCW and BCL.

After 2008, I predict LD will drop off the radar as his attacking game will lose some sting whilist BCL and LCW will be on top for another 2 years before the next Chinese hard smasher comes to the fore.

[X Ball]

LD played well. To beat LCW, I have said before you must be patient. LD was Patient in the 2nd and 3rd and tried not to go for fantastic shots. He only attack when he was ready and not all the time. LD also was quick to come to the net. LCW lost on 2 grounds, one: more unforced errors than LD esp at 5-5 in the 3rd that gave LD a 5 point lead.

From then on LD just maintained his game whilst LCW cut back on his errors and were able to slowly closing in. One last tactical error, the flick serve by LCW gave LD point 20. But even if he did not use that the score would be around 21-18 LD favour the errors at 5-5 was the turning point.

I dont agree LCW 's defence was not good. In fact there were so many instances when he return LD smashes and twice sucessfully countered attack to the oos and ahs of the crowd.

LCW and BCL are highly skillful players who can make the suttle do a lot of things . LCW and BCL are equal in their resective strength and weaknesses. LD isnt as skillful as the LCW and BCL but he is quicker, the body obey his mind faster and he can also think very fast in Court and has power punches often executed at right moments. LD has very few unforced errors in his game. that what separate LD from LCW and BCL.

After 2008, I predict LD will drop off the radar as his attacking game will lose some sting whilist BCL and LCW will be on top for another 2 years before the next Chinese hard smasher comes to the fore.


I think it is beginning to look like LCW and BAO are the two up-and-coming players. Then there is CJ, Sony and perhaps even Simon. It will be an interesting 2008 as much as it was this year. LD's job is made harder now.

[Birdwood]

First, it's impossible for a fan to obtain such evidence. Does that mean fans should refrain from making judgments? I say no. You can disagree. In fact fans of other sports are doing such things all the time. Imagine a soccer match, in which the players are dubiously lethargic. Do you think the spectators should refrain from shouting "fake! cheating!"? I say no. You can disagree.

Yes we owe the players for those enjoyable matches. But don't forget they also owe us for their oppotunity to make a living as badminton players. Without fans there will be no need to hold any tournaments.

First you are not shouting in a stadium. You're making accusation in writing for everyone to see on internet. Second, if you're serious about the sports, you would refrain from such inflammatory comments, especially lacking of any concrete evidence. It's not good for the sports and anyone else. As I said before, if you have problems with the rules and coaches, or whoever you're not happy with, please seek appropriate channels for action. Not to broadcast some unfound personal opinion as truth, and try to drag the sports we all love down with you. Fans support badminton, not trying to destroy it. Please seek positive improvement to the sports, that's where the future will be :D.

[Loh]

well, it is easy to find a scapegoat or excuse than to accept one's own weakness or fault. If the alleged walkout/walkover tactic employed by lyb is yielding titles for the china team, my question is, why don't other teams do it too? Don't tell me other countries are all sweet rose smelling and ethical unlike lyb. For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final? INA can employ soni and santoso to help out taufik too. My simple solution to MAL and INA MS problem is to have HH, roslin, soni, simon to get into QF and/or SF so china can't use walkover or walkout tactics. Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

You certainly have a point there! ;)

[shanisen3200]

well, it is easy to find a scapegoat or excuse than to accept one's own weakness or fault. If the alleged walkout/walkover tactic employed by lyb is yielding titles for the china team, my question is, why don't other teams do it too? Don't tell me other countries are all sweet rose smelling and ethical unlike lyb. For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final? INA can employ soni and santoso to help out taufik too. My simple solution to MAL and INA MS problem is to have HH, roslin, soni, simon to get into QF and/or SF so china can't use walkover or walkout tactics. Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

Yeah that's the way of badminton...ahhh perfect likes the sakura drop:D

[ye333]

Internet is not a serious place man. This is a forum, I don't see it much different than the stadium or some small gathering of fans. I am expressing my personal views and judgments, and I am not saying that's truth. You are free to disagree, and if you have counter-evidence, I will believe you.

Who is dragging the sports down? The dissatisfied fans, or those ppl who manipulated matches? :eek:


First you are not shouting in a stadium. You're making accusation in writing for everyone to see on internet. Second, if you're serious about the sports, you would refrain from such inflammatory comments, especially lacking of any concrete evidence. It's not good for the sports and anyone else. As I said before, if you have problems with the rules and coaches, or whoever you're not happy with, please seek appropriate channels for action. Not to broadcast some unfound personal opinion as truth, and try to drag the sports we all love down with you. Fans support badminton, not trying to destroy it. Please seek positive improvement to the sports, that's where the future will be :D.

[Misty100]

Let's all look forward to 2008. I bet there'll be several new challengers like CJ, SDK, and SS making leaps and giving hell to those present stayers.

Time for players and forummers alike to take a break from badminton. A relaxing holiday would be really nice after a long year, with tournaments after tournaments.

[V3i HoN6]

No. Don't want a holiday for badminton.
I wish I got to watch badminton once every 2 weeks.

[Birdwood]

Internet is not a serious place man. This is a forum, I don't see it much different than the stadium or some small gathering of fans. I am expressing my personal views and judgments, and I am not saying that's truth. You are free to disagree, and if you have counter-evidence, I will believe you.

Who is dragging the sports down? The dissatisfied fans, or those ppl who manipulated matches? :eek:

Have you ever heard innocent until proven guilty? Maybe you haven't been US long enough to know that. Sorry to disappoint you, burden is on you to prove, not me :rolleyes:.

[ye333]

You are wrong since I don't think saying such things on the internet is a formal accusation. Just like dissatisfied fans shouting "fake!" or "this guy must have been bribed by that team!" in the stadium, should the police approach them and ask for evidence? I say no. Again, maybe you will say yes.

So I think our difference lies in how seriously we treat such claims as "the WO is a fake!" in an internet forum. You tend to treat it as a formal accusation, but I tend to treat it as just another person expressing his personal opinion.


Have you ever heard innocent until proven guilty? Maybe you haven't been US long enough to know that. Sorry to disappoint you, burden is on you to prove, not me :rolleyes:.

[kwun]

alright gentlemen, it looks like you are never gonna agree. let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[CLELY]

LD has won 5 SS titles including latest chapter in Hongkong which was the hardest one to grab it. Seems LD has high difficulty now to defeat LCW compare than TH.

LD booked four of five SS titles without serious obstacle in finale, beat his three compatriots and one MAS veteran player :

- KOR SS -- beat Chen Jin (2 games)
- All England -- beat Chen Yu (2 games)
- China Masters -- beat Wong Choong Han (2 games)
- DEN SS -- beat Bao Chunlai (2 games)
- HKG SS -- beat Lee Chong Wei in rubber games with totally gave LD heavy pressure to win it.

[azabaz_ipoh]

alright gentlemen, it looks like you are never gonna agree. let's just agree to disagree and move on.

i agree. before it gets personal and veer out of topic. remember, badminton is supposed to be a gentleman's game. we have dissatisfaction but lets not make it the sole thing about badminton.

i for one enjoyed the finals tremendously. both lin dan and LCW played a good game. i was watching from the edge of my seat. both had bad luck and good shots. i guess lin dan deserve the win. LCW could be more mentally tough in the face of what he deem as unfair judgements. LCW fights a good fight so there is really no shame in losing. lets not judge the players themselves and judge one particular game at a time. i think the finals was good. as long as they both played their hearts out. both were emotional and showed passion. so all is good for me. i might be a little disappointed with the calls but i was not there, and i dont know for sure it was unfair and thus i will refrain from accusing people of being cheats (which i hope others will too because really, unless we were really near the court we wont know for sure. replays sometimes give angles that did not show the true flight and landing of the bird). i know LCW was frustrated but he could do well to overcome the feeling of frustration when the calls go against him and stay focused and give a good fight. which i think he did for the most part in the finals. and thus i am satisfied. on to the next battle i say! let the game stays exciting and fair. :D

[pjswift]

i dont see LD playing that great at all in HK final against lcw. LD made lots of errors too.

IMO, bcl played much much better in china open final beating a so called fit lcw than what lin dan had played in HK final but of course the final china open ms final was marred by controversies.
Totally agree with you. LD did not play that great. He only played 80% to defeat LCW playing at 70%.
BCL probably played at 110% to beat an officially restrained LCW at ?? %.

[Birdwood]

alright gentlemen, it looks like you are never gonna agree. let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Thanks Kwun. Sorry got carried away and off the topic. My apology to ye333 too. Let's shake hands and be nice to each other :p.

[jug8man]

well, it is easy to find a scapegoat or excuse than to accept one's own weakness or fault. If the alleged walkout/walkover tactic employed by lyb is yielding titles for the china team, my question is, why don't other teams do it too? Don't tell me other countries are all sweet rose smelling and ethical unlike lyb. For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final? INA can employ soni and santoso to help out taufik too. My simple solution to MAL and INA MS problem is to have HH, roslin, soni, simon to get into QF and/or SF so china can't use walkover or walkout tactics. Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

haha.


Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

I have to tread on the dangerous grounds to say that 'AT THE MOMENT' these fans have nothing to cheer about anyway so are not bothering to do so.


For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final?

I would venture to say both Malaysia and Indonesia are tempted to do so. However it will never happen even if the team is strong enough to do so.
Team China is the Roman Army. Team Malaysia and Team Indonesia however.. individual glory is so much more important (team events an exception) making these players the charismatic badminton players that their fans hold dear and love.

Let me cite a perfect recent example :-

http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/sport/matches.aspx?id=17832&y=2007&m=12&d=1

Look at the 2007 Hong Kong Open XD Semifinals. The first XD semifinal was an all China affair. It wasn't even played.

Then next up was the second XD event which was an all Indonesian Battle. Even knowing that they will have fresh legged opponents waiting in the finals the next day......... These TRUE BLOODED SPORTMEN whom are also FELLOW COUNTRYMEN still chose to SLUG THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS out of each other for the HONOUR OF PLAYING IN THE FINALS.

As you can see in the results, The match lasted 47 MINUTES, played into a hard fought RUBBER SET with the scoreline 22-20 13-21 21-19 in favour of NOVA & LILIYANA.

& Thankfully they took the Title the next day as well.


So my point is : You don't make 1 wrong into a right with another wrong. :cool:

Long live the Mercenaries! Long live true sportmanship!! ;) :D

[jug8man]

I watched the Finals. I thought Lin Dan played brilliantly in the 2nd & 3rd match againts Lee Chong Wei.

Overall felt the match officiating was good compared to the CO fiasco.

Congrats to Lin Dan a trully outstanding badminton Player. Lee Chong Wei good luck and get well soon!

[badMania]

Then next up was the second XD event which was an all Indonesian Battle. Even knowing that they will have fresh legged opponents waiting in the finals the next day......... These TRUE BLOODED SPORTMENS whom are also FELLOW COUNTRYMEN still chose to SLUG THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS out of each other for the HONOUR OF PLAYING IN THE FINALS.

As you can see in the results, The match lasted 47 MINUTES, played into a hard fought RUBBER SET with the scoreline 22-20 13-21 21-19 in favour of NOVA & LILIYANA.

& Thankfully they took the Title the next day as well.


Yup.....that match was one of the best in Hong Kong Open 2007 and the crowds certainly loved both pairs for showing their very best and fought till the end.

In fact, both pairs were very very exhausted at the end, especially for Nova/Butet who HAD TO PLAY AGAIN the next afternoon.

The fact that Nova/Butet won against the freshly rested Zheng Bo/Gao Ling also PROVED A POINT to Li Yongbo that his tricks and tactics failed miserably. Some of his players were unhappy to be made the scapegoats in the WO incidents :cool: You could observe from the disgust in their face and the feeling of "I don't really care now" :rolleyes:

[jug8man]

Your solution seems almost like if we are unhappy with the linecalls in China Open, we should ensure lincalls are also unfair in Malasyain Open??? Fighting bad with bad is never a good idea...or what is the saying.. Two wrongs don't make a right?

Personally I think personal pride and inter team competetion makes Danes, Indos, Malaysians etc try to beat eachother when faced in the tournaments...

We should be happy other coaches than LYB seems to think it is an important aspect for wins to be on the court, not off the court!!

It would not be accepted by eruopean players to w/o to help their "team"-mates.. simply beacuse MS is not seen here as a "team" event! Kenneth will ALWAYS try to beat Gade if faced, for example...

/Twobeer

I must agree. I should have put denmark in my previous post as well

[pjswift]

Well, good point. I have to say. But instead of asking everybody to agree with the value and culture you value the most, should BWF make the ONLY set of rules & regulations to let people follow? Samething applies to our daily life. We have laws to govern things, other than ethic or moral standards.
Since the other thread is closed, allow me to offer my apologies for offending you personally.Cheung specified my offensive point so i'm aware of it now.My badminton kaki really misled me with that CHN patriot shorthand. (he's very proud of being one).
i have a research intensive background. In media research, there's quite an extensive range of psychographic shorthand.Come to think of it, a few of them would be considered rude here.
By the way,it's not unusual for champions to be draped in their national flag. You see this in tennis grand slam finals as well. Certainly Venus williams and Justin Henin have done it.
It's smart of a MAS supporter to have a MAS flag ready for LCW.Why waste a free tourist-generating opportunity?

[ye333]

No need to apologize man. It's clear (after us exchanging a few posts) that we have totally different opinion for the same fact. So indeed no need to argue anymore. :)


Thanks Kwun. Sorry got carried away and off the topic. My apology to ye333 too. Let's shake hands and be nice to each other :p.

[jug8man]

Yup.....that match was one of the best in Hong Kong Open 2007 and the crowds certainly loved both pairs for showing their very best and fought till the end.

In fact, both pairs were very very exhausted at the end, especially for Nova/Butet who HAD TO PLAY AGAIN the next afternoon.

The fact that Nova/Butet won against the freshly rested Zheng Bo/Gao Ling also PROVED A POINT to Li Yongbo that his tricks and tactics failed miserably. Some of his players were unhappy to be made the scapegoats in the WO incidents :cool: You could observe from the disgust in their face and the feeling of "I don't really care now" :rolleyes:

Perhaps it's reaching a boiling point for Team China in context of Coaches, Management, and Players. I'm sure it's festering somewhere. With every action comes an...

[Loh]

I must add too that not only are the political systems among China, Indonesia and Malaysia different, to some extent, they have also influenced the players' attitude and commitment to national and individual goals.

China players' have been brought up to put the country first and personal interest second. They are willing to sacrifice for the national cause, so forfeiting a match to the advantage of their teammates for the national good is something worthy and honourable.

Remember too that their rewards/incentives system is also different from the other countries, so they don't stand to lose a lot individually, as would perhaps an Indonesian or Malaysian player.

How many non-China players are willing to sacrifice for such a cause?

However, as China continues to become more capitalistic, there will bound to be changes to their system and the players' attitude will also change. China players will change to be more individualistic and match manipulation will not be that easy.

One reason why European players are not as prone to match fixing because they act more as individuals with self-interest to look after.

[reclinerlover]

I watched the LIVE telecast on ESPN. Instant replay showed that it was OUT. Commentator said the game was riddled with poor line calls in favour of LD. China's player, HK umpire...is that even legal? How do we preserve impartiality?

[cooler]

I watched the LIVE telecast on ESPN. Instant replay showed that it was OUT. Commentator said the game was riddled with poor line calls in favour of LD. China's player, HK umpire...is that even legal? How do we preserve impartiality?
hahaha, we are dealing with hairline difference of a line call and u can't even be specific on which line call incident u are talking about lol, u r very accurate in details aren't u?

[jug8man]

I was about to respond Loh's post in a lengthly reply using Krisna's Fraud Triangle analysis (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46201 : Post #14) until I realized how contradicting these two post are :-



China players' have been brought up to put the country first and personal interest second. They are willing to sacrifice for the national cause, so forfeiting a match to the advantage of their teammates for the national good is something worthy and honourable.



The fact that Nova/Butet won against the freshly rested Zheng Bo/Gao Ling also PROVED A POINT to Li Yongbo that his tricks and tactics failed miserably. Some of his players were unhappy to be made the scapegoats in the WO incidents You could observe from the disgust in their face and the feeling of "I don't really care now"

Loh, can you be certain that these players are feeling 'proud' or 'honourable' to either
1) Give their teammate a walkover? I'm sure that some players would be feeling very dissapointed that the 'management did not have faith in them' to be able to beat the opponent.

2) Receive a walkover from a teammate? I'm a big Lin Dan fan all the way since years ago when ppl were still calling him 'arrogant 24/7'. I would like to believe that IF he was given a free ride in the semifinals to face LCW.... I'm sure he's thinking 'What wrong with this ppl.... Don't they know I can beat LCW anytime? Why don;t they still trust me???'

So which is which?

[ctjcad]

..thru the webcast, i would agree on most of what the posters had chimed in, in this thread..You guys pretty much covered the match breakdown..;)

Overall, i actually thought both players played really well, despite the "excuse(s)" that both or either players are fatigue etc. and the line calls were pretty much right on (maybe questionable on 1 or 2 of the calls).
But in short, i thought LD totally upped his pace in the 2nd set and was more the initiator, aggressor/attacker, in comparison to the 1st set..He simply controlled the tempo, esp. in that 2nd set, unleashing his many jumpsmashes, which LCW couldn't return (sorry, i forgot to count how many there were)..In the 3rd set, the momentum continued for LD eventhough LCW tried his best to slow down the match/tempo; but LD never gave him any chance to regain any momentum..
About Birdwood's comment on the strategy that LD attacked LCW's backhand side more in the 2nd and 3rd game, yes, i noticed that also; and it seemed LCW couldn't employ much from his game from that position..The net play, which is one of LCW's strong game element, wasn't working consistently for LCW as well..LCW did have a few nice net kills, but i thought LD either had quite a good read on them or he never gave LCW any more chance play comfortably at the net..

Just watched the match, congrats to LD as he was the better player of the day. LCW on the other hand, was a lil impatient in the rallies this time, he should hv tried to slow down the pace instead of playing LD's game. Definitely wrong strategy.
And also, nice to see some mutual respect shown btw both players.
..yes, that's what i was wondering also..I wouldn't say it was the wrong strategy, but perhaps LD never let LCW continued to play the same tempo as in the 1st set..Like someone mentioned, LD made LCW play his game..

One last tactical error, the flick serve by LCW gave LD point 20. But even if he did not use that the score would be around 21-18 LD favour the errors at 5-5 was the turning point.
..actually, IIRC (if i remember corectly), in the entire match, LCW gave at least 2 of those flick serves, which LD was fully ready and immediately killed them. LCW was probably trying to surprise LD a bit, but I was a bit surprised that LCW took those chances, esp. at that juncture of the game..:confused:

One last thing i noticed throughout the whole match was, it seemed like both LD and LCW used/requested a new shuttle after every single point scored. They also seemed to pace and take their time more, in between points and serves..

[cooler]

I was surprised that LCW took those chances..:confused:

when one is losing and out of idea and time, u start taking gambles. That is only option left beside giving in like what taufik did in 06 Japan open.

[ctjcad]

when one is losing and out of idea and time, u start taking gambles. That is only option left beside giving in like what taufik did in 06 Japan open.
..but time definitely was not running out on LCW, was it?; running out of ideas & being impatient, maybe..And giving in/up is not the same as gambling..:p;)

[Loh]

I was about to respond Loh's post in a lengthly reply using Krisna's Fraud Triangle analysis (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46201 : Post #14) until I realized how contradicting these two post are :-


Loh, can you be certain that these players are feeling 'proud' or 'honourable' to either
1) Give their teammate a walkover? I'm sure that some players would be feeling very dissapointed that the 'management did not have faith in them' to be able to beat the opponent.

2) Receive a walkover from a teammate? I'm a big Lin Dan fan all the way since years ago when ppl were still calling him 'arrogant 24/7'. I would like to believe that IF he was given a free ride in the semifinals to face LCW.... I'm sure he's thinking 'What wrong with this ppl.... Don't they know I can beat LCW anytime? Why don;t they still trust me???'

So which is which?

Please note that I'm just putting forward a 'general hypothesis' and I also qualify during the opening of my remarks:

I must add too that not only are the political systems among China, Indonesia and Malaysia different, to some extent, they have also influenced the players' attitude and commitment to national and individual goals.

and

However, as China continues to become more capitalistic, there will bound to be changes to their system and the players' attitude will also change. China players will change to be more individualistic and match manipulation will not be that easy.

[jug8man]

okay I understand better. Thanks

[zqloy]

..yes, that's what i was wondering also..I wouldn't say it was the wrong strategy, but perhaps LD never let LCW continued to play the same tempo as in the 1st set..Like someone mentioned, LD made LCW play his game..



What i saw, LCW got impatient and tried to outpace LD, forgot about his own knee injury eh? Its not the way he beat LD in the last few meetings. His defense is not up there too, didnt saw much of that trademark dive..... maybe its the injury problem? :rolleyes:

[pjswift]

I must add too that not only are the political systems among China, Indonesia and Malaysia different, to some extent, they have also influenced the players' attitude and commitment to national and individual goals.

China players' have been brought up to put the country first and personal interest second. They are willing to sacrifice for the national cause, so forfeiting a match to the advantage of their teammates for the national good is something worthy and honourable.

Remember too that their rewards/incentives system is also different from the other countries, so they don't stand to lose a lot individually, as would perhaps an Indonesian or Malaysian player.

How many non-China players are willing to sacrifice for such a cause?

However, as China continues to become more capitalistic, there will bound to be changes to their system and the players' attitude will also change. China players will change to be more individualistic and match manipulation will not be that easy.

One reason why European players are not as prone to match fixing because they act more as individuals with self-interest to look after.
Don't call it sacrifice;it's not.It's about making hard choices. Either you obey or you're out.With other countries,if pressed likewise, they may opt out!Non-CHn players have the grit to go against such orders, so pls don't degrade them.
This CHN problem probably coincides with LYB being head coach. Nothing to do with political or economic systems.It wasn't like that or that bad before LYB's time,was it?

[pjswift]

when one is losing and out of idea and time, u start taking gambles. That is only option left beside giving in like what taufik did in 06 Japan open.
LD's just lucky he faced a knee injured LCW. That's why LCW could not sustain his G1 level. With key weapons dented:defence down 60%,movement down 70%, jumpsmash down 80% not to mention netplay in G2 and G3, what options had he?
I'm just so impressed that LCW could still hold LD out for 50 mins.The crowd must be delighted.

[hcyong]

My thoughts on these walkover stuff.

1) If walkover (or retirement) is due to gamesmanship, it IS cheating but ...
2) ... you can never prove it; however ...
3) ... fans are not stupid; this occurs regularly enough that an idiot knows it.
4) It is marring the game. It is a game between individuals, not a team event.
5) If we continue like this, we will never achieve the status of tennis, where individuals truly fight for themselves. When an individual wins a title, his name is more important than the country he represents.
6) If we achieve the status of tennis, we will not be like this (but then Thomas/Uber/Sudirman/Olympics will be a farce, too).

(5) and (6) - chicken-and-egg problem.

[cooler]

LD's just lucky he faced a knee injured LCW. That's why LCW could not sustain his G1 level. With key weapons dented:defence down 60%,movement down 70%, jumpsmash down 80% not to mention netplay in G2 and G3, what options had he?
I'm just so impressed that LCW could still hold LD out for 50 mins.The crowd must be delighted.according to reports from some knowledgable fans at the HKO, lcw was like a bridge wall against Kenneth J.
Hmmm, brick wall on one match, revving down his engine on the final. I'll let others be the judge of the knee injury. (all players have some sort injury but to use it only to explain one defeat and not the others is bogus)

[eaglehelang]

LD's just lucky he faced a knee injured LCW. That's why LCW could not sustain his G1 level. With key weapons dented:defence down 60%,movement down 70%, jumpsmash down 80% not to mention netplay in G2 and G3, what options had he?
I'm just so impressed that LCW could still hold LD out for 50 mins.The crowd must be delighted.

Yup, yup. Watching HK Open live and watching the French Open again, LCW didnt do his famous dives as much. When he did, took him longer to get up. French Open, the injury bothered him but he could still hold out. China Open, he sorta gave up. HK Open, as many have posted, he was already drained out.

I was also thinking LCW would be demolished by LD in 2 easy sets. LD himself said in post-match intv : "Lee played fast and it wasn't easy to match him at the beginning. I lost the first game but I managed to win in the end," said Lin Dan. (NST, 3 Dec 07)

[cooler]

My thoughts on these walkover stuff.

1) If walkover (or retirement) is due to gamesmanship, it IS cheating but ...
2) ... you can never prove it; however ...
3) ... fans are not stupid; this occurs regularly enough that an idiot knows it.
4) It is marring the game. It is a game between individuals, not a team event.
5) If we continue like this, we will never achieve the status of tennis, where individuals truly fight for themselves. When an individual wins a title, his name is more important than the country he represents.
6) If we achieve the status of tennis, we will not be like this (but then Thomas/Uber/Sudirman/Olympics will be a farce, too).

(5) and (6) - chicken-and-egg problem.
soccer is a team sport. It is also the undisputed #1 sport in the world.
Saying that badminton has to be all about individualism in order to be popular doesnt hold water. Yes, tennis and golf is good examples of popular individual sports but i can give u more popular team sports than popular individual sports: basketball, hockey, cricket, rugby, volleyball, baseball are very popular team sports too.

[alfa-2]

according to reports from some knowledgable fans at the HKO, lcw was like a bridge wall against Kenneth J.
Hmmm, brick wall on one match, revving down his engine on the final. I'll let others be the judge of the knee injury. (all players have some sort injury but to use it only to explain one defeat and not the others is bogus)

WCH - BMW
HH - BMX
KJ - honda nsx (fast)
LCW - Zonda F(very very fast)
LD - bugatti veyron (freaking fast)

Zonda can beat NSX's easily even when Zonda is having problem with it's 6th gear, cos it didn't need 6th gear at all.:D:D:D but Zonda will have a big big difficulty if the opponent was Bugatti Veyron instead.:D:D:D

Hope you get the picture..............

[jug8man]

soccer is a team sport. It is also the undisputed #1 sport in the world.
Saying that badminton has to be all about individualism in order to be popular doesnt hold water. Yes, tennis and golf is good examples of popular individual sports but i can give u more popular team sports than popular individual sports: basketball, hockey, cricket, rugby, volleyball, baseball are very popular team sports too.

Bad comparison... those are games where all players from 1 side are suppose to function as a team. In the case of soccer.......... Ronaldo would not give up a clear shot at goal to pass it to Rooney.... just so that Rooney can get top scorer of the season.

A better comparison is with F1... where individual racers are part of them same team. We even remember the big uproar 2-3 years back when Michael Schumachers partner had to give way to Michael to lead even tho the partner was leading throughout the entire race. That did not make F1 very popular either

[Joyous]

If the Chinese players ONLY win in China, Hongkong & Macau, I would think that bad line calls & umpiring would be a major factor in deciding who is the winner. But I think they were more successful in other tournaments held in neutral ground.

[cooler]

Bad comparison... those are games where all players from 1 side are suppose to function as a team. In the case of soccer.......... Ronaldo would not give up a clear shot at goal to pass it to Rooney.... just so that Rooney can get top scorer of the season.

A better comparison is with F1... where individual racers are part of them same team. We even remember the big uproar 2-3 years back when Michael Schumachers partner had to give way to Michael to lead even tho the partner was leading throughout the entire race. That did not make F1 very popular either
there can't be no perfect comparison between sports exactly. I was only making a point that pushing badminton all toward an individual theme isn't the only way or a sure way to popularize badminton

[jug8man]

there can't be no perfect comparison between sports exactly. I was only making a point that pushing badminton all toward an individual theme isn't the only way or a sure way to popularize badminton

Yes, you have a point. But if I want that kind of sports entertainment I switch to WWE wrestling.

[s1nn3r]

Yes, you have a point. But if I want that kind of sports entertainment I switch to WWE wrestling.

Ya ya ya!! If most things are fix like patriotic walkover or patriotic judge. Better watch WWE since we know from the begining is ENTERTAINMENT!!!

This china guys got no sense of profesionalism or ethics at all. Simply selfish to self glory. Bringing more shame to glory to China... Just like those China Dolls they send all over the world... They SERVE the world but bring Shame or Glory to CHINA?:cool:

[hcyong]

soccer is a team sport. It is also the undisputed #1 sport in the world.
Saying that badminton has to be all about individualism in order to be popular doesnt hold water. Yes, tennis and golf is good examples of popular individual sports but i can give u more popular team sports than popular individual sports: basketball, hockey, cricket, rugby, volleyball, baseball are very popular team sports too.

You know very well what I meant. Teamwork in the context of a team sport like soccer is very different from "teamwork" in the context of what we were discussing about.

[s1nn3r]

You know very well what I meant. Teamwork in the context of a team sport like soccer is very different from "teamwork" in the context of what we were discussing about.

No point arguing....

There is TEAMWORK in INTERNATIONAL BADMINTON!!!

China players team up with CHINA Linesman with CHINA judge to win CHina open & HOng kong Open...

THat's TEAMWORK!!!:mad:

[hcyong]

there can't be no perfect comparison between sports exactly. I was only making a point that pushing badminton all toward an individual theme isn't the only way or a sure way to popularize badminton

It does not matter whether a sport is individual or team. What matters is that each match should be competitive in nature (ie. all sides want to win). Because badminton is an individual sport in nature, the "team" theme makes it less competitive.

[s1nn3r]

It does not matter whether a sport is individual or team. What matters is that each match should be competitive in nature (ie. all sides want to win). Because badminton is an individual sport in nature, the "team" theme makes it less competitive.
Your guys are cycling in bushes… this is a very subjective argument! Until it's tried out… we wont know the result :)

[hcyong]

No point arguing....

There is TEAMWORK in INTERNATIONAL BADMINTON!!!

China players team up with CHINA Linesman with CHINA judge to win CHina open & HOng kong Open...

THat's TEAMWORK!!!:mad:

I'm not arguing.

There is "teamwork" (and not just the Chinese, though they apparently are the main culprits), but there shouldn't be.

[hcyong]

Your guys are cycling in bushes… this is a very subjective argument! Until it's tried out… we wont know the result :)

Sometimes I don't know what I am doing myself but I don't think I am cycling in bushes.

Until "what" is tried out?

[s1nn3r]

Sometimes I don't know what I am doing myself but I don't think I am cycling in bushes.

Until "what" is tried out?
Until your guys idea is being tried out… or being study by some Professor?

[Loh]

Don't call it sacrifice;it's not.It's about making hard choices. Either you obey or you're out.With other countries,if pressed likewise, they may opt out!Non-CHn players have the grit to go against such orders, so pls don't degrade them.

This CHN problem probably coincides with LYB being head coach. Nothing to do with political or economic systems.It wasn't like that or that bad before LYB's time,was it?

In the communist system, the state comes first. It was much worse before when China was not open to the world economy. Even now, China will not tolerate interference to its ideology and communist leadership. Mayors and business leaders in China have been punished severely for stepping out of line.

LYB is seen to represent the state. The players are still somewhat beholden to the state. They have no freedom to oppose as in a democracy. Stepping out of line will mean hardship and possible cold storage for life. So LYB continues to make the call.

[s1nn3r]

In the communist system, the state comes first. It was much worse before when China was not open to the world economy. Even now, China will not tolerate interference to its ideology and communist leadership. Mayors and business leaders in China have been punished severely for stepping out of line.

LYB is seen to represent the state. The players are still somewhat beholden to the state. They have no freedom to oppose as in a democracy. Stepping out of line will mean hardship and possible cold storage for life. So LYB continues to make the call.
This is communism, we are not battling for Olympic gold but also communism. LCW & company would have a hard time doing business in Beijing08. Scary! If LCW won GOLD would he be shot dead?

[Shifty]

WCH - BMW
HH - BMX
KJ - honda nsx (fast)
LCW - Zonda F(very very fast)
LD - bugatti veyron (freaking fast)

Zonda can beat NSX's easily even when Zonda is having problem with it's 6th gear, cos it didn't need 6th gear at all.:D:D:D but Zonda will have a big big difficulty if the opponent was Bugatti Veyron instead.:D:D:D

Hope you get the picture..............

i like your comparison a lot!!!! :D:D:D but let me add one, Fu Haifeng= T-90 Main Battle Tank. it doesn't need to be fast, because it's got a mega 125mm cannon. it'll blow everything up :p:p:p

[hcyong]

Until your guys idea is being tried out… or being study by some Professor?

What idea? (Sorry, just briefly browsed through the discussion.) No regulation can be drafted to counter this.

Obvious non-regulative ways include:
1) Other countries can prevent this by producing quality players in higher quantity. (widely mentioned before)
2) Individuals come out and play for themselves or clubs. (We are increasingly seeing this, but it's usually the players unwanted by the national camp or in their twilight.) Clubs are less likely to grow big enough to fix matches.

Well, ok. There is one aspect of the regulation I feel should change.
Remove the regulations with regard to nations, ie. player limitation, country separation etc. (unless it is in direct conflict with the competition rules, ie. the Olympics which have their own rules we must obey)

[V3i HoN6]

okay I understand better. Thanks
I don't.
So was it honorable and proud or was it disappointed and disgusted?

(this part is not intended to you but everyone)
I don't understand what are our discussion are based on anymore. Is it about right or wrong or is it about "I right or I wrong". Nevermind what I said because it's all just a figure of speech to win an argument, or be it contradicting or against my initial principal. The better I twist and turn the logic, and the better I represent in a plausible way to confuse them fool, then I am right. Why can't we acknowledge bad line calls and ill intentions walkover is not a good thing to badminton and we all should against it, before you go on with your bla bla bla he shouldnt be affected, he is mentally immature speeches?
When we were nit-picking on the players mentality, maturity, physical fitness, attitude, behavior and thousands more and why at the same time we become all lenient and couldn't find ourself asking for a fairer and better managed games?


Don't call it sacrifice;it's not.It's about making hard choices. Either you obey or you're out.With other countries,if pressed likewise, they may opt out!Non-CHn players have the grit to go against such orders, so pls don't degrade them.
This CHN problem probably coincides with LYB being head coach. Nothing to do with political or economic systems.It wasn't like that or that bad before LYB's time,was it?
You are right on the part we shouldn't degrade the player.
But many are taking it as now that they dont have a choice, so there is not a problem anymore. The unfairness isn't there anymore. The fixed game is all okay now. They got no choice what? Be it la. If you want, you fix with your side la.

We should acknowledge what is right and what is wrong. I understand their situation doesn't mean I have to mark it right in my book. They are still wrong to do that. The acknowledgment may be nothing now but it will be always there for the standard of right and wrong. So walkover and patriot line judge won't become of norm after 10 years later even we can't take it out today.



My thoughts on these walkover stuff.

1) If walkover (or retirement) is due to gamesmanship, it IS cheating but ...
2) ... you can never prove it; however ...
3) ... fans are not stupid; this occurs regularly enough that an idiot knows it.
4) It is marring the game. It is a game between individuals, not a team event.
5) If we continue like this, we will never achieve the status of tennis, where individuals truly fight for themselves. When an individual wins a title, his name is more important than the country he represents.
6) If we achieve the status of tennis, we will not be like this (but then Thomas/Uber/Sudirman/Olympics will be a farce, too).

(5) and (6) - chicken-and-egg problem.

Shouldn't have said that, you are implying some here are actually stupid because although how regularly enough and how apparently their trick was, some choose to deny of what happened.

One minute people would go so far to calling people sucks because he support the player of his countrymen and next minute that someone drop his holier than thou principle and agreeing to the Chinese player conceding his game to his countrymen is acceptable. Blame on the people who can't stop them going into semi final instead.

[Loh]

This is communism, we are not battling for Olympic gold but also communism. LCW & company would have a hard time doing business in Beijing08. Scary! If LCW won GOLD would he be shot dead?

No, please don't stretch it that far. We are talking about the internal politics of China as it affects the livelihood of her people, including athletes like the badminton players.

Outsiders who are not directly governed as citizens of China should not be affected unless they commit crimes there, as they would similarly be punished in any other country. Winning an Olympic gold medal is not a crime unless you do it illegally like taking drugs.

In fact China is putting her best foot forward to welcome all athletes, officials and visitors to the Beijing Olmpics for the world to see.

Yes indeed the world, through the power of instant TV, will be able to see what's going on and judge for itself. Any misdeeds on the part of China will place her in very bad light, which she certainly want to avoid.

[xuguochuan]

Ask what causing the "walkoever strategy" in the first place :confused:. If China has so many good players, it's walkover even if they play. Competitions among the Chinese players in tournaments looked more like practicing to me. So what's the point playing or showing off?

The questions here should really be how other countries can produce more players like LCD, WMC, etc., who can stop the Chinese from sweeping MS, WS, and WD's titles. You can't blame the Chinese for the rapid decline of TH's competitiveness after last OG.

As X Ball said "If it wasn't him, I think I would have lost interest in badminton long time ago." (meaning LCW). It's very true. Who wants to see an all Chinese finals or even worse semi-finals. If that happens, it would be the "china new 'walkover strategy' " whether you like it or not :mad:.

From HO 07, I still see great hope that badminton tournaments can be competitive and enjoyable to watch. XD and MD titles were won competitively by other countries. Why can they also produce more good players in other departments.

So please don't blame the Chinese for winning, try to find the cause and solutions to fix losing as well :rolleyes:.

The famous speech by JFK was "Ask not .... - ask what you can do ...". Maybe to badminton in your place :p.
Ya you are right, luckily not all country are like china. i remember LCW beat his teammate 2-0 straight set. If every country use the 'walkover strategy' or 'brother brother attitude' then we really dont know who is the real winner, who is the real world number 1, who uses real skill and strength, who is the real HERO. Although LCW lost the match, but inside my heart he is the real winner. I am sure many would agree with me. I am doing my part to uphold fair play, sportmanships, integrity and honour in badminton. The famous speech by JFK "Ask not....- ask what you can do...".

[twobeer]

It is better to regard it as a strategy... saying cheating is far too much... :)

It's a fine line..

If you and your buddies where teaming upp sharing card info on a black Jack table in Las Vegas, you would be thrown out and not allowed to play..

Team-play in indivudal events are mostly considered cheating.. Enforcing and proving these matters are of course very tricky though..

The only way to get rid of this as I see it is to limit to one or max two players per "team" in individual events.. If some players/caoches makes it a country event rather than a player event, then it must be handled as a country event...

/Twobeer

[kchew]

Actually, I was concern about foreign players safety as well. Communist are famous for their loyal spies which could poison, kidnap or even killed a player to make sure the communist party win! They will die for their country… No doubt!


Your communist / China bashing is way out of line. It shows your paranoia and poor education. It reflects poorly on Malaysia actually.

Communism in China developed because of the very bad conditions in China in early last century as it was being raped by foreign powers. China is regaining its strength day by day nowadays, albeit the bad publicities being dished out by rapacious Western media.

China has enough sportsmen and sportswomen to win many gold medals in Olympics (it's second in last Olmpic), while Malaysia can only depend on badminton. It doesn't need to resort such silly antic like your country men will do.

China is succesful in sports because it wants to be succesful and great nation. The athletes are hungry for success , while the sports bodies and goverment departments are well organised and work hard to achieve results. For example, China men hockey team went from no where 10 years ago to one of the top 15 team today, and may occasionally beat Malaysia.

Malaysia on the other hand, is a racist based society, in which things have been going from bad to worst. There is little meritocracy, as almost every thing is based on racial consideration or personal patronage from their corrupted politicians and Sultans. It's a turd world country, and will still be a turd world country in years to come.