Analysis of LCW's play in HKO

[X Ball]

Ok, I looked at the play of LCW vs LD in the 3 sets and I want to know whether anyone has the same opinion as me.

1st set
LD started in a furry. LCW caught him with a couple of fast returns. LCW was returning the shots well -- lifting the shuttles to the baseline with just the right length, and they didn't look too high and these caught LD several times when he smashed to into the net (LD was not able to execute his huge jumping smash properly).

2nd set
What went wrong was LCW lobbed the shuttle too many times short of the basline and the height of the shuttles were reasonably high for LD to smash them down -- I counted at least 5-6 of these smashed down cleanly by LD. LCW was clearly affected by these -- he tried adjusting these to ensure the distance was long enough but these went out because he hit it too long, and cost him more points. He also lost out obviously trying to net play instead of lobbing high to the back (coz he is worried of not getting the right distance) and lost a few 'knee jerk' net shots of his which didn't go across (with LD hovering at the net, always hard to match net shots with him cleanly).

3rd Set
He still have problems with his his high lobbying to the baseline and net plays. It bothered him. And flick serves to the back cost him coz they were smashed down easily by LD.

Conclusion

He needs to get his distance right when he lobs his shuttles to the baseline -- I suggest lob it more to LD's backhand's side and not so much into the middle coz LD seems to be lethal with smashes from there. Attack more into LD's body rather than to the side if the smashes are not going to be powerful ones -- LD is more vulnerable when shots are directed at his body.

WDYT ?

[pjswift]

The questions are:
1) Why change his G1 game plan?
2) Why can't or don't he do what he normally can do? Defend, move and attack superbly?
3) What's the advantage of flick serve? Why did he continue the risk when all his flick serves got killed?

[danielwong]

you should ask Misbun...:D:D:D
if u analyse here, LYB might learn a thing or 2...
fatal for LCW.....:D:D:cool::cool::cool:

[drifit]

you should ask Misbun...:D:D:D
if u analyse here, LYB might learn a thing or 2...
fatal for LCW.....:D:D:cool::cool::cool:

yeah, should close door and talk to Hj Misbun.............:D:D:D

[X Ball]

you should ask Misbun...:D:D:D
if u analyse here, LYB might learn a thing or 2...
fatal for LCW.....:D:D:cool::cool::cool:



Ah, but I am not giving away any of LCW's strengths (notice I have not discussed any features of his specific plays), I am only pointing out his errors.:D

In any case, they all know LCW's strengths (they can watch videos as much as I can). Nobody has counted on him turning it around so fast. If he improves further next year, it would not surprise me if he becomes hard to beat for anyone --- just got to get those lobs correct in the meantime.:D


NB: Or maybe you guys are right I am giving away too much secrets.:D;):eek:

[GunBlade008]

I agree with alot of points, but I saw LCW playing his old style instead of his new more effective rally style because he is scared of Lin Dan's smashes. LCW liked to keep it flat and net, but Lin Dan is used to that game so he took full advantage of LCW's fear and play.

Just my two cents :)

[X Ball]

I agree with alot of points, but I saw LCW playing his old style instead of his new more effective rally style because he is scared of Lin Dan's smashes. LCW liked to keep it flat and net, but Lin Dan is used to that game so he took full advantage of LCW's fear and play.

Just my two cents :)

Yup agree -- who would not be scared of LD's smashes (as I said he smashed so many good ones away the other day).

Why didn't he play the new style ? LD forced him to play fast and got him to do lots of net plays -- LD must have researched into LCW's plays.

[azabaz_ipoh]

i saw the short lobs too but the commentator was talking about the direction of the draft in the stadium and that it was behind LCW in the first set and against LCW on the second. maybe that is why his lobs are too short. i was not there so i just based this on what i heard the commentator was saying.

[wilfredlgf]

By the way, he's a little injured - facing the world's best player at less than your full fitness almost always guarantees certain defeat - you need all the strength you can get.

Not making an excuse for him by the way, just so you know.

[GunBlade008]

Yup agree -- who would not be scared of LD's smashes (as I said he smashed so many good ones away the other day).

Why didn't he play the new style ? LD forced him to play fast and got him to do lots of net plays -- LD must have researched into LCW's plays.

Definitely agree, LD did a great job controlling LCW in game 2 and 3.

[cooler]

i am extremely surprise to hear a lcw fan saying his fav. player, #2 best MS player in world, forgot how to hit the very basic strokes of badminton: lift and overhead clears. Even if that assumption is true, a #2 best MS player should able to make correction during the 2nd set, if not, on the 3rd game. I dont believe a #2 best MS player can't find the base line by the 3rd game.

conclusion: bad analysis

[GunBlade008]

i am extremely surprise to hear a lcw fan saying his fav. player, #2 best MS player in world, forgot how to hit the very basic strokes of badminton: lift and overhead clears. Even if that assumption is true, a #2 best MS player should able to make correction during the 2nd set, if not, on the 3rd game. I dont believe a #2 best MS player can't find the base line by the 3rd game.

conclusion: bad analysis

So what you're essentially saying is that a #2 player can't be outplayed nor can he makes mistakes against the #1 player in the world? And that he MUST hit the perfect shot everytime against the #1 player? In your dreams buddy. And you think X Ball's analysis was bad? It's one thing to have an opinion and another thing to be arrogant. You, sir, are the latter. Grow up.

[cooler]

So what you're essentially saying is that a #2 player can't be outplayed nor can he makes mistakes against the #1 player in the world? And that he MUST hit the perfect shot everytime against the #1 player? In your dreams buddy. And you think X Ball's analysis was bad? It's one thing to have an opinion and another thing to be arrogant. You, sir, are the latter. Grow up.


he asked WDYT ?
my post is my opinion to his analysis and only his analysis.
Any assumption, extrapolation, guesses and allegation on your part is your own fabrication and you are putting new spin into my post. Don't start fires when there isnt one. I did not accuse anyone anything where as u did. Who need to grow up?:rolleyes:

if u want to disagree, find a counterpoint to each of my statement. Don't go making stuff up what u think i meant to say. Hint: What i have said is clearly stated in my post.

[phaarix]

I watched his match against Chen Jin in the French Open (admittedly very different circumstances!). And if you ignore how his opponent was playing, EVERYTHING was just going right for him then. Almost every shot was perfectly placed. Very rarely did he make a mistake. I think that's how he started against Lin Dan in this match. Lin Dan upped the pace a bit in the second set, and LCW started making a few errors... I think he started to doubt himself a bit from that point... And that affected his shots and his playing style... And at that point I think he'd already lost the match.

And yes I really agree with the point about the netplay. All of a sudden not everything is going right for him, and the doubt sets in. He seemed to really lose his focus in this match. Just watching his face and body language, and the hesitation in his shots... One of those line calls (I think in the third set) also seemed a bit rough, and what Lin Dan did on match point didn't help either (quite clever though)! He still played well though, it was a very exciting final!!

[X Ball]

he asked WDYT ?
my post is my opinion to his analysis and only his analysis.
Any assumption, extrapolation, guesses and allegation on your part is your own fabrication and you are putting new spin into my post. Don't start fires when there isnt one. I did not accuse anyone anything where as u did. Who need to grow up?:rolleyes:

if u want to disagree, find a counterpoint to each of my statement. Don't go making stuff up what u think i meant to say. Hint: What i have said is clearly stated in my post.

Whatever you say I disagree, and I dont need to counter any of your points. And it is my opinion.

[cooler]

I watched his match against Chen Jin in the French Open (admittedly very different circumstances!). And if you ignore how his opponent was playing, EVERYTHING was just going right for him then. Almost every shot was perfectly placed. Very rarely did he make a mistake. I think that's how he started against Lin Dan in this match. Lin Dan upped the pace a bit in the second set, and LCW started making a few errors... I think he started to doubt himself a bit from that point... And that affected his shots and his playing style... And at that point I think he'd already lost the match.

And yes I really agree with the point about the netplay. All of a sudden not everything is going right for him, and the doubt sets in. He seemed to really lose his focus in this match. Just watching his face and body language, and the hesitation in his shots... One of those line calls (I think in the third set) also seemed a bit rough, and what Lin Dan did on match point didn't help either (quite clever though)! He still played well though, it was a very exciting final!!
much better analysis;) which i purposely left out what u have said to see how long it take for other bc members to come to these points. It took 14 posts...

regarding the match point, IMO, i think lcw isn't playing fair and want to take a cheap point off LD by rushing his serve, hoping to catch LD off guard and a weak lift or an error. I was :eek: when lcw did it 'twice'. LD showed alot of maturity and each time, not fazzled but ask for a re-serve. In the end lcw cheap tactic backfired and LD got the easy finish shot off a very disturbed lcw serving.

[cooler]

Whatever you say I disagree, and I dont need to counter any of your points. And it is my opinion.
No, u don't need to. Your points are all displayed in post #1.
Why repeating yourself again? Just curious....

[alfa-2]

lcw was trying to implement KJ's serve................hehehhee...........

[KlasseE]

LCW lost because lack of physical n mental fitness after long tourneys
basically his skill is much better than LD that even if he lost the game he style of play is still the best i have ever seen, just like Mia in WS, Tony n Candra in MD or Kim n Ra in XD....

[AlanL]

LD is simply better during that match, LCW tried his best and not good enough. I think if both are on top form LD will win because he got more arsenal than LCW.

[Dreamzz]

there's very little between LD and LCW at the moment.
it's pretty simple, whoever plays better on the day will win.

[Simp84]

much better analysis;) which i purposely left out what u have said to see how long it take for other bc members to come to these points. It took 14 posts...

regarding the match point, IMO, i think lcw isn't playing fair and want to take a cheap point off LD by rushing his serve, hoping to catch LD off guard and a weak lift or an error. I was :eek: when lcw did it 'twice'. LD showed alot of maturity and each time, not fazzled but ask for a re-serve. In the end lcw cheap tactic backfired and LD got the easy finish shot off a very disturbed lcw serving.

Flick serve is cheap and unfair?
First of all LD do that too & in fact quite a number of players do it too.
It is the opponent's fault for not being ready when someone else serves.
It isn't considered a cheap tactic, it's all part of the game.

[Smichz]

I guess this thread will works well to answer everyone who thought that HK open was dirty..will they bother to change their mind?

[eaglehelang]

Ah, but I am not giving away any of LCW's strengths (notice I have not discussed any features of his specific plays), I am only pointing out his errors.:D

In any case, they all know LCW's strengths (they can watch videos as much as I can). Nobody has counted on him turning it around so fast. If he improves further next year, it would not surprise me if he becomes hard to beat for anyone --- just got to get those lobs correct in the meantime.:D


NB: Or maybe you guys are right I am giving away too much secrets.:D;):eek:

Anyway, wasnt LCW playing injured? Even RTM commentator was worried he'll aggravate his knee injury. He's more drained in HK than France.
So, cant really compare right XBall?
Compare it with Japan Open match, LCW in HK moved like an uncle, LCW in Japan moved faster.

He didnt do his famous dives to save the shuttle, when he did, he couldnt recover fast enough. But he did try harder than China Open although there were some line calls.

Will be interesting though to see a fully fit LCW against LD.
LD was extra polite this time though, apologising when the shuttle hit LCw's body. Hmmmmm,trying to show sportmanship towards injured opponent?

In any case, Misbun has been smart enough to give effective tips, I'm sure he & LCW will come up with an effective strategy to beat LD.

[X Ball]

No, u don't need to. Your points are all displayed in post #1.
Why repeating yourself again? Just curious....

Who is repeating -- you or me ? You have rubbbished my 1st post and you did it again to emphasize your point - why ? Fear people would not listen to you and you want them to maybe agree with you? Is that it ?

Curiosity kills the cat or don't you know ?

[X Ball]

Anyway, wasnt LCW playing injured? Even RTM commentator was worried he'll aggravate his knee injury. He's more drained in HK than France.
So, cant really compare right XBall?
Compare it with Japan Open match, LCW in HK moved like an uncle, LCW in Japan moved faster.

He didnt do his famous dives to save the shuttle, when he did, he couldnt recover fast enough. But he did try harder than China Open although there were some line calls.

Will be interesting though to see a fully fit LCW against LD.
LD was extra polite this time though, apologising when the shuttle hit LCw's body. Hmmmmm,trying to show sportmanship towards injured opponent?

In any case, Misbun has been smart enough to give effective tips, I'm sure he & LCW will come up with an effective strategy to beat LD.

Yes most of the factors do come into consideration -- I was just pointing where he might have gone wrong, especially with his returned shot to the back from a net shot. He seemed to be getting it short or playing it too long. When that happens, it upsets one's game (possibly a draft can affect that too), especially if LD can capitalise on it. At other times, when he beat LD, he never had a lot of those shots to trouble him.

[pjswift]

Yes most of the factors do come into consideration -- I was just pointing where he might have gone wrong, especially with his returned shot to the back from a net shot. He seemed to be getting it short or playing it too long. When that happens, it upsets one's game (possibly a draft can affect that too), especially if LD can capitalise on it. At other times, when he beat LD, he never had a lot of those shots to trouble him.
I believe that , had LCW being uninjured, he would have defeated LD straight; just like in SC and JO.

[X Ball]

I believe that , had LCW being uninjured, he would have defeated LD straight; just like in SC and JO.

Thank you my friend. I think we both enjoy the success of LCW.

[taneepak]

I believe that , had LCW being uninjured, he would have defeated LD straight; just like in SC and JO.

I am not sure. Perhaps if you have a video of their match, try to zero in on the different body language of LCW in the first set vs the other two sets. The mind sets the tone of the body language. I think it was more a test of mental strength.

[pjswift]

I am not sure. Perhaps if you have a video of their match, try to zero in on the different body language of LCW in the first set vs the other two sets. The mind sets the tone of the body language. I think it was more a test of mental strength.
Nothing to do with mental strength. His knee condition can hold up to a certain point.In LCW's matches vs PG and KJ, he was in danger of losing G2;had he lost G2,he wouldn't have survived G3 from PG or KJ.
When LCW started firing in G1, notice how LD lost his concentration and tried to find fault with the officials' plastic iD tags?How come he did not have that problem in his previous 4 matches?
Of course the mind decides on the body. But if the knee condition deteriorated to the extent LCW cannot fully execute his weapons, he will be at his opponent's mercy.He had no choice but to play the way he did in G2 and G3.So the mind can decide on a fully fit body but up to a certain extent for an injured one. (That's why people die even when they fervently wish to live on.)
I don't think you are aware how fresh LD was compared to LCW. HKO is effectively LD's first tourney while it's LCW's second consecutive one. That matters, that's why LD even have the added privilege of a truncated sf with compatriot CJ.If freshness does not matter, why would CHN have so many convenient teammate walkovers?
I'm just surprised a fresh uninjured LD needed 50 minutes to defeat an injured,tired LCW. Very unconvincing win, to my mind.

[eaglehelang]

I am not sure. Perhaps if you have a video of their match, try to zero in on the different body language of LCW in the first set vs the other two sets. The mind sets the tone of the body language. I think it was more a test of mental strength.

I did, I'm sure Xball & PJSwift did too, most prob more times than I did. In HK, LCW looked somewhat tired in G2 and totally drained out by G3. It was mind over body that keep him going in G3 - basically in G3 LCW looked like going to fall down & faint.

HK Open - injured, tired, half frustrated LCW against fresh, fit, determined (must win after embarassing 1st rd lost to Park in China) LD.

Compare that with one month before that, French Open F- injured but fresher, cool LCW against tired BCL.
I believe it was against LD, it would have gone to 3 tight sets with LCW winning - everyone was surprised with LCW's new strategy.

Compare that with the tournament one week before = China Open F - injured but frustrated LCW(all those dubious line call) against determined, fresh BCL. If LCW had not given up, would have to 3 exciting sets with BCL winning.
BUT from my observation, even then, LCW moved faster, more alert, maybe the knee pain wasnt so bad.

Compare that with Japan Open Semi - fresh & determined LCW against unfocused LD. LCW won in straight sets.

A LCW fan posted that in order for LD to beat LCW or taufik he has to put in 110%, that's why it's often 3 sets. And when it's not 110%, LCW can beat LD in straight sets cos LCW playing at his normal game.

[volcom]

Pjswift and X Ball are the heads of 'LCW only lost because of blah blah' brigade, for surely LCW would've beaten Lin Dan no problemos if he weasn't injured. Thats normal because most of the people here on these forums are Malaysian's and its their national game?
Just few months ago LCW was beaten left right, centre and now he manages to win a couple of tournaments and make it to the finals of a few others, he is going to be number one in the world soon?
Way too poremature imho. A few months ago Boonsak was beating Chinese players and look where he is now. Lin Dan loses a few times as its the part and parcel of such a competitive game and he is losing it?
No offense intended

[sonnymak]

eaglehelang, that was me who commented about LD need 110% to beat LCW. And it was from LD's mouth in an interview he gave to cctv.

Volcome, i am Malaysian but I tried to be as objective as I can. LD played well in HKO final and employ correct tactics against LCW, LCW employed wrong tactics and made many unforced errors esp at 5-5 in the 3rd set and gave LD a 11-5 lead. Later at Ld's point 13, LCW tightened his game and fewer mistakes but LD just maintained his lead and game over. So overall LCW is consistent when ever he meet LD, LD this time played better than LCW by again employing better strategy. It depends on the day. If LD had made a string of mistakes at 5-5, then LCW would have won, that's the difference.

When it comes to skill, LCW and BCl are better than LD, but LD body and mind are quicker and make less mistake in his game couple with powerful attack that's why LD is No.1 and LCW and BCL 2 and 3 respectively.

LCW and BCL will out last LD in the top, LD's game does not allow him to compete the top post 2008 as the attack will lose some sting and he will have to rely on skill so like XXZ after 2008, LD would be candidate for retirement.

[eaglehelang]

Pjswift and X Ball are the heads of 'LCW only lost because of blah blah' brigade, for surely LCW would've beaten Lin Dan no problemos if he weasn't injured. Thats normal because most of the people here on these forums are Malaysian's and its their national game?
Just few months ago LCW was beaten left right, centre and now he manages to win a couple of tournaments and make it to the finals of a few others, he is going to be number one in the world soon?
Way too poremature imho. A few months ago Boonsak was beating Chinese players and look where he is now. Lin Dan loses a few times as its the part and parcel of such a competitive game and he is losing it?
No offense intended

1) Actually, we are one of the few who continously support Msian players. There are many others who bashed LCW for his losses in China & Japan, including Msia sports minister and the Msian press.

Same goes for KKK/TBH, lots of "why (Msia player) lost ?" when they lose one match. None on why Fu/Cai lost 1st rd in China, Semis in HK.
Look at the Indonesian fans, they didnt bash Taufik, Kido/Setiawan as hard when they lost.


2) No, Xball (who started this thread) dont think LCW will be World No 1 anytime soon, just how to improve, as a concerned fan.
One BCer, fastdrop from Philipines, even commented Msia has very good players and pleaded us, the Msian fans not to be so critical. Fastdrop was at the stadium watching for China & HK Opens.

[sonnymak]

P.S. I am a badminton afficionado. To me although nationality matters, when I see good a badminton player I comment praise his or her style irrespective of that players nationalilty.

[drifit]

1. anyone plays badminton while having injuries?
2. does this uneasy feeling affect your play?
3. will you easily get annoy?

[samuel882]

eaglehelang, that was me who commented about LD need 110% to beat LCW. And it was from LD's mouth in an interview he gave to cctv.

Volcome, i am Malaysian but I tried to be as objective as I can. LD played well in HKO final and employ correct tactics against LCW, LCW employed wrong tactics and made many unforced errors esp at 5-5 in the 3rd set and gave LD a 11-5 lead. Later at Ld's point 13, LCW tightened his game and fewer mistakes but LD just maintained his lead and game over. So overall LCW is consistent when ever he meet LD, LD this time played better than LCW by again employing better strategy. It depends on the day. If LD had made a string of mistakes at 5-5, then LCW would have won, that's the difference.

When it comes to skill, LCW and BCl are better than LD, but LD body and mind are quicker and make less mistake in his game couple with powerful attack that's why LD is No.1 and LCW and BCL 2 and 3 respectively.

LCW and BCL will out last LD in the top, LD's game does not allow him to compete the top post 2008 as the attack will lose some sting and he will have to rely on skill so like XXZ after 2008, LD would be candidate for retirement.
The above sentense in bold is not correct :cool:

[samuel882]

Managed to watch the replay just an hour ago. That match was marred by drift on many occasions. both players having some bad judjements ...
On skills wise.. LD & LCW were pretty equal ... LD was on superb form while smashed & LCW is quick as usual on the net..
Both of them got some lucky shots over the nets too.
Instead of debating on the mentality issues, I think the main keys on who will prevailed in future matches will be much rellies on who can command over the drift on court..

[taneepak]

Managed to watch the replay just an hour ago. That match was marred by drift on many occasions. both players having some bad judjements ...
On skills wise.. LD & LCW were pretty equal ... LD was on superb form while smashed & LCW is quick as usual on the net..
Both of them got some lucky shots over the nets too.
Instead of debating on the mentality issues, I think the main keys on who will prevailed in future matches will be much rellies on who can command over the drift on court..

The best criteria to judge who is the better player is the number of times each of them, LD, LCW, BCL, got into the quarter-finals, semi-finals, finals, and eventual finals winner, the number of times over a year. In other words, its the silverware and the winnings in $ they win that counts. This is consistency which requires mental strength. Winning the finals a few times and then crashing out in the openning rounds every now and then are not the hallmark of a great player. Winning only when you are in top form is one thing, but winning titles even when you are not in top form, is the real hallmark of a true champion, as it separates the great from the brilliant-only-when-in form type. LCW is a brilliant player but he, and BCL as well, are not made of that sterner stuff that LD now seems to exude.

[DavidZhang]

The best criteria to judge who is the better player is the number of times each of them, LD, LCW, BCL, got into the quarter-finals, semi-finals, finals, and eventual finals winner, the number of times over a year. In other words, its the silverware and the winnings in $ they win that counts. This is consistency which requires mental strength. Winning the finals a few times and then crashing out in the openning rounds every now and then are not the hallmark of a great player. Winning only when you are in top form is one thing, but winning titles even when you are not in top form, is the real hallmark of a true champion, as it separates the great from the brilliant-only-when-in form type. LCW is a brilliant player but he, and BCL as well, are not made of that sterner stuff that LD now seems to exude.
Agree.
As a Chinese, I like LCW's play a lot. LCW, LD and BCL, they are all talented and at the top of this game at moment. However, in such a competitive sports, it is really really hard to hold there at the top for long. I really want to see different faces win games. I think a lot of factors decide the win or lose of games. If you watched how well-played CY/FHF in Sudirman Cup 2007, you would really be wondering how they lost so badly recently. Thus, to be a great player, you need to overcome a lot and be consistent.

[williamtan2020]

My take on LCW defeat boils down to his character. No doubt he's got talent but he has got to just..... be himself. No point pleasing everyone but lost the pleasure of playing the game. Know what I mean, LCW just be yourself.

[williamtan2020]

BTW...LCW played a great match at the HK O except of course, the last two points.....

[victory]

I think it is obviuos that LCW knee injury has affected his performance in HKO. He said in one interview that he has to pop 2 pain killer to play that match. Secondly, I think his confident got affected in 2nd game when his lob and his tactic didn't work out well and he didn't adjuste his tactic fast enough.He soon lost focus, he tried very hard to catch up but that was not good enough. Lastly, LD is fresh. LD lost in the first round in CO and CJ gave him the walk over.

LCW is mentally strong. Much stronger now. He is not weak. Losing and winning is all part of the game. We can accept that and I am sure he can accept that as well. Losing the HKO open final is no big deal.Remember, he is still the runner up in 2 consecutive Super series open.

I am sure he will learn from the matches in these 2 opens and grow stronger. When he is fully fit, his chance of winning LD is high. He has proven his mettle anyway.

[HiddenPower]

LCW lost because lack of physical n mental fitness after long tourneys
basically his skill is much better than LD that even if he lost the game he style of play is still the best i have ever seen, just like Mia in WS, Tony n Candra in MD or Kim n Ra in XD....

The above text in bold I disagree...
Talking about the over all skills, you have to count in physical fitness. Because LD is fit, so he is lighting fast.

The 1st set, LCW played an all out game + beautiful deceptive shots.
The 2nd and 3rd game, LD's pace became much faster (warmed up?). The increasing of speed was not only giving LCW less time to react but also closed LD's own defense holes.
As we all know, good deceptive shots need time to execute. The increasing of pace must caused more errors from LCW.

We saw more and more deceptive shots from LCW now; I feel he's becoming more like TH (well, the TH 2 years back).