Penalty for Lin Dan

[Polar Bear]

[quote=azabaz_ipoh;784476]yes that is violence. i dont know how you describe violence but if someone throw something in my direction with anger that is violent. the yellow card was not sufficient. but that is your opinion and i will agree to disagree.
[quote]

Did you actually see the whole incident? All I've seen is the youtube version which is mostly the aftermath. Is there footage of LD actually taking aim and hurling is racquet directly at the coach and missing? If so could you give the link?

Fair enough we agree to disagree, what about the coaches? That clearly meets your standard of violence. Given actual physical contact was made their fines should be a multiple of what ever LD's fine is. Also if LD's act was that serious the chair umpire should be reprimanded for not giving LD a Red Card and letting him continue the match.

[badMania]

Did you actually see the whole incident? All I've seen is the youtube version which is mostly the aftermath. Is there footage of LD actually taking aim and hurling is racquet directly at the coach and missing? If so could you give the link?


Ah....u missed this part? That's the most shocking video IMHO :cool:

Enjoy this one:
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=QsdZUuWaPk4 (http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=QsdZUuWaPk4)

[Polar Bear]

Maybe the standard of violence in the other countries are different. BUT, I think ppl living in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia WOULD CLASSIFY the act of hurling a racket with contempt (look at Lin Dan's expression) in the direction of Li Mao, as a blatant act of violence.


The scary part about that is that if the stardard of what constitutes violences is set unresonably low, it makes it easier for others to justify retaliation, often comming out of proportion to the original offence.

[Winston_T]

"Christian juga sepakat dengan tindakan Lin Dan yang mengecam tindakan wasit. ''Lin Dan saja sampai terbawa emosi. Wasit dengan segenap kemampuan berusaha untuk memenangkan pebulu tangkis tuan rumah,'' papar Christian.

Christian also agreed with Lin Dan's act of condemning the linejudges deeds. Even Lin Dan was emotional. The linejudges tried their best to let their home players win, stated Christian.

It doesn't mention anything about Christian saying Lin Dan's throwing of that racket is a correct one :cool:


I don't understand this part. In KO07 MSF, the umpire was quite fair and overruled 80% of the biased line calls (with LHI only taking advantage of one single point, this MSF is definitely among the fairer half of all MSFs involving home country players). If there was hawk-eye or overrule-using-slow-motion, the remaining 20% would be eliminated too. So if there is hawk-eye, and if the umpire and service judge are not from the home country, there will be fair games.


a comment from anti LD. every spectators, viewers and media said that it is totally unfair for LD. even Christian Hadinata agree with LD.

I just replies the comment from ye333 in term of the biased line calls from the umpire and linejudges, not about LD's action.

[xsakurax]

I think an action should be taken on Lin Dan.No matter what we cannot deny the fact that he actually threw the racket even if he did not throw it at
li mao but he should realize that throwing racket outside the court is dangerous as it can hurt anyone:mad:Anyway i'm shocked that there are many people who voted that no penalty should be given to lin dan..weird =_=''

[Ningtyas]

Unfortunately, Jawa Pos doesn't have archives. I think Christian was merely mentioning about the standards of line judges in Korea. Nothing related to the violence, when in fact, that should be the major concern in this thread, isn't it?

We are proposing about penalty to Lin Dan, yet, ppl are still claiming that he is "innocent", when in fact, television replays already show that he DID COMMIT the violent act :mad:

The link to the article in JawaPos
http://www.jawapos.com/index.php?act=detail_c&id=323703
Yes, nothing related to the violence

[Polar Bear]

Ah....u missed this part? That's the most shocking video IMHO :cool:

Enjoy this one:
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=QsdZUuWaPk4 (http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=QsdZUuWaPk4)



Thanks, and wow :eek:. I take back what I said. I need to change my vote :(

[badMania]

Thanks, and wow :eek:. I take back what said. I need to change my vote :(

So, tell us your opinion okay...:D

I am glad that you have taken back what you have said....sadly....some of the ppl here are still thinking otherwise.

[azabaz_ipoh]

Did you actually see the whole incident? All I've seen is the youtube version which is mostly the aftermath. Is there footage of LD actually taking aim and hurling is racquet directly at the coach and missing? If so could you give the link?

Fair enough we agree to disagree, what about the coaches? That clearly meets your standard of violence. Given actual physical contact was made their fines should be a multiple of what ever LD's fine is. Also if LD's act was that serious the chair umpire should be reprimanded for not giving LD a Red Card and letting him continue the match.

yes there is a footage of lin dan throwing the racket in LM general direction, which is the coaches' seat next to the court. and even if the racket was thrown in the general direction of the opposing court it should have been considered a violent act. check the other threads on KO2008. there are videos that you can watch there.

i never said (please check my previous posts) that LM should get away with his conduct. i said all parties involved should be penalized. no exception. and the umpire, if the translated version of the interview is to be believed, mentioned that he did not give the red card because he thinks the outcome should be decided by the players themselves and not him, which meant that he was considering the red card but opted for the yellow card instead because he wants the play to continue.

[Polar Bear]

yes there is a footage of lin dan throwing the racket in LM general direction, which is the coaches' seat next to the court. and even if the racket was thrown in the general direction of the opposing court it should have been considered a violent act. check the other threads on KO2008. there are videos that you can watch there.

i never said (please check my previous posts) that LM should get away with his conduct. i said all parties involved should be penalized. no exception. and the umpire, if the translated version of the interview is to be believed, mentioned that he did not give the red card because he thinks the outcome should be decided by the players themselves and not him, which meant that he was considering the red card but opted for the yellow card instead because he wants the play to continue.

Nope you're right. I checked out the link. The other footage and stills I saw did not convey the velocity of throw............. I stand corrected.

[ctjcad]

[CENTER]This is the press phone interview with the Czech referee Mojmir Hnilica for the MS final between LD and LHI.
...
(SOHO Sports)
..the same report and translation was already shared with us in this thread below; thanks, anyway, for the post & re-translation:cool::
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51850&page=13 (post #229)

Has anyone noticed...since the incident last Sunday, we have so many newcomers on this board :D
..as usual, if controversy like these rears its ugly head, there's nothing that can contain the flood..:p
Btw, you're really up on your toes w/this issue the last couple of days, have you??..:) ;)

and miraculously, no one has gotten themselves banned... yet. :cool:
..eerrmm, sure, but 2-3 thread have been UNNECESSARILY locked, if the people who've heated it up would've ceased...*sigh* :p :(

We know all along that the standard has been bad in Korea and somewhat, the players and coaches are mentally prepared for it.
..are you sure "the players and coaches are/were mentally prepared for it"???...:confused: :p

...
meanwhile, anybody know the website of Jawa Pos(t) and can confirm or deny the fact?

u can try this:
http://www.bulutangkis.com/mod.php?mod=publisher&op=viewarticle&artid=3812

can someone translate? badMania?

"Christian juga sepakat dengan tindakan Lin Dan yang mengecam tindakan wasit. ''Lin Dan saja sampai terbawa emosi. Wasit dengan segenap kemampuan berusaha untuk memenangkan pebulu tangkis tuan rumah,'' papar Christian.

Christian also agreed with Lin Dan's act of condemning the linejudges deeds. Even Lin Dan was emotional. The linejudges tried their best to let their home players win, stated Christian.

It doesn't mention anything about Christian saying Lin Dan's throwing of that racket is a correct one :cool:
..confirmed, kwun. The context of coach Christian's complaint was mostly on the quality of the line-judges and lines calling...Not on LinDan's action. Winston_T might've gotten mixed up w/the news/context:cool:

*Btw, kwun, i noticed the texts on the forum somehow changed (became narrow). I hope it's not because you're adjusting w/your new monitor, is it?? But i think it's back to normal now...:p :cool:

[Winston_T]

..confirmed, kwun. The context of coach Christian's complaint was mostly on the quality of the line-judges and lines calling...Not on LinDan's action. Winston_T might've gotten mixed up w/the news/context:cool:


I only replies ye333 comment about fair line-judges, but maybe my comment wasn't complete so other BC members possibly misunderstood it.

[ctjcad]

I only replies ye333 comment about fair line-judges, but maybe my comment wasn't complete so other BC members possibly misunderstood it.
..we understood what you meant!:cool:...You don't know how many misunderstandings have happened in this forum already, so, you're fine;)....Thanks, btw, for that story & welcome to BC, if this is your first time visiting!!..:):cool:

[NanoBatien]

I vote a free-for-all fight between LD and LM. :p Winner gets to fight the line judges (LD cos they were cheating, LM cos they didnt cheat enough to make it a Korea vs Korea final).

Not that I condone tantrums, but its pretty terrible line judging there, and KO seems to have a dodgy reputation. Fortunately, the umpire wasnt Korean or none of the calls would have been overruled. Well done the umpire. I understand that its impractical to import line judges due to the huge cost.

KO: Suspend the Korean Open 2009 as a super series tournament (but have it anyway just doesnt count for world rankings) pending better line judging next year.

Lin Dan: I dont think he really blamed the umpire, who did well. He was pissed off with the line judges, which is fair enough. Its only throwing the racket, nobody was injured. If I were in his place, Id throw my racket too (assuming my racket was sponsored :D). Basically once the umpire rules out 4 line calls, the game WILL be significantly affected. I think LD saw LM's actions as trying to prevent the umpire from rescuing LD from the dastardly line judges.

Li Mao: Hes the coach, he wants the win. But he wasnt playing, so he should have a clearer head. His conduct was definitely wrong, especially for a spectator.

So LD to get a small fine, LM to get a bigger one. KO to be suspended as a SS for 1 tournament in 2009. Cameras/TV footage to be used for all marginal calls to be decided by the umpire (dont see any sense in restricting its use). Or perhaps electronic pressure detectors?

[badMania]

As for Lin Dan, I dont think he really blamed the umpire, who did well. He just was pissed off with the line judges, which is fair enough. Its only throwing the racket, nobody was injured. If I were in his place, Id throw my racket too (assuming my racket was sponsored :D).


Most ppl would be fine if Lin Dan just banged his racket to the ground. Its sheer frustration!

The problem is: He's not just pissed off with the line judge...but also with Li Mao! That's why he hurled the racket in the direction of Li Mao! Nothing would justify such an aggression!

[badMania]

..we understood what you meant!:cool:...You don't know how many misunderstandings have happened in this forum already, so, you're fine;)....Thanks, btw, for that story & welcome to BC, if this is your first time visiting!!..:):cool:

He's furious with the linecalls in Korea Open 2008, but, if you look at his reply in the other thread, seems that he thought the linecalls in the CM and CO 2007 were justified :eek: Contradiction eh? :o

[Winston_T]

I vote a free-for-all fight between LD and LM. :p Winner gets to fight the line judges (LD cos they were cheating, LM cos they didnt cheat enough to make it a Korea vs Korea final).

Not that I condone tantrums, but its pretty terrible line judging there, and KO seems to have a dodgy reputation. Fortunately, the umpire wasnt Korean or none of the calls would have been overruled. Well done the umpire. I understand that its impractical to import line judges due to the huge cost.

KO: Suspend the Korean Open 2009 as a super series tournament (but have it anyway just doesnt count for world rankings) pending better line judging next year.

Lin Dan: I dont think he really blamed the umpire, who did well. He was pissed off with the line judges, which is fair enough. Its only throwing the racket, nobody was injured. If I were in his place, Id throw my racket too (assuming my racket was sponsored :D). Basically once the umpire rules out 4 line calls, the game WILL be significantly affected. I think LD saw LM's actions as trying to prevent the umpire from rescuing LD from the dastardly line judges.

Li Mao: Hes the coach, he wants the win. But he wasnt playing, so he should have a clearer head. His conduct was definitely wrong, especially for a spectator.

So LD to get a small fine, LM to get a bigger one. KO to be suspended as a SS for 1 tournament in 2009. Cameras/TV footage to be used for all marginal calls to be decided by the umpire (dont see any sense in restricting its use). Or perhaps electronic pressure detectors?

if BWF wants to suspended LD, banned him in KO 09. I'm sure, without suspended, LD will never come again in Korea, just like TH:)

[badMania]

..as usual, if controversy like these rears its ugly head, there's nothing that can contain the flood..:p
Btw, you're really up on your toes w/this issue the last couple of days, have you??..:) ;)

..are you sure "the players and coaches are/were mentally prepared for it"???...:confused: :p


I am relatively free today, so, I can entertain some ppl here :D

Yes, Ko Aryono mentioned this several times already in Hong Kong. So, if he and the other coaches are already experienced in all these bad linecalls, I think the players and coaches are somewhat prepared for these stuffs to happen in their matches. Truly, some indeed happened during the XD match between Nova/Butet and the Korean pair as well as the XD Final.

[Winston_T]

He's furious with the linecalls in Korea Open 2008, but, if you look at his reply in the other thread, seems that he thought the linecalls in the CM and CO 2007 were justified :eek: Contradiction eh? :o

to be fair, CHN players also suffers so many wrong calls.
WC 06 & Ina 06 is the best examples.

[badMania]

to be fair, CHN players also suffers so many wrong calls.
WC 06 & Ina 06 is the best examples.

Errr......other players were suffering from bad linecalls at the China Open and China Masters 2007 too :eek::cool::rolleyes:

The Korean pair Jung Jae Sung/Lee Yong Dae even walked out from their match against Guo Zhendong/Xie Zhongbo. I guess its a tit for a tat for them :o So, its even.

[Winston_T]

How many more bad examples from Lin Dan that BWF allows to happen before doing anything ! We have school boys and girls out there guys who learn from players!

can u named some of it?:rolleyes:

[ctjcad]

...
Yes, Ko Aryono mentioned this several times already in Hong Kong. So, if he and the other coaches are already experienced in all these bad linecalls, I think the players and coaches are somewhat prepared for these stuffs to happen in their matches. Truly, some indeed happened during the XD match between Nova/Butet and the Korean pair as well as the XD Final.
..that applies to the INA squad and INA's XD pair was somewhat "ready" in its Final match. But are you sure it applies to other player(s) and them being ready?? *hint, see which player we're still discussing/talking about until now??..;)

[badMania]

can u named some of it?:rolleyes:

U must have forgotten the boohaha at the Malaysia Open 2006 :cool:

Oh....is it possible that at that time you still don't know who is Lin Dan :o?

[Winston_T]

U must have forgotten the boohaha at the Malaysia Open 2006 :cool:

Oh....is it possible that at that time you still don't know who is Lin Dan :o?

I only know about that one. can u named another?

[badMania]

..that applies to the INA and the XD pair was somewhat "ready" in their Final match. But are you sure it applies to other player(s) and them being ready?? *hint, see which player are we still discussing/talking about until now??..;)

But u were questioning me about the INA squad right ;)

I believe other players and coaches from other countries were relatively prepared too. IMHO, even Lin Dan himself agreed that these sort of things happened in Korea often.

I don't think the dubious line calls made Lin Dan snap. According to Badzine, since someone here quoted that Christian Hadinata agreed that Lin Dan was the "true champion of KO 2008" :eek:, the main root of Lin Dan's aggression was Li Mao's reaction.

"What upsets me most was how Li Mao acted all righteous about the situation and even resorted to provocative words."

"He wasn't scolding me per se, but his choice of words were evocative and carried implications of his apparent displeasure of the Chinese team; there were vulgarities too."

So, I think we can move on past the dubious linecalls issue.

[ctjcad]

But u were questioning me about the INA squad right ;)
..did I??:confused:...I thought i was questioning your comment as you were making that statement "in general", in reply to ants' comment (not specific to any players)??..Did i misunderstand your comment?:confused:

I believe other players and coaches from other countries were relatively prepared too. IMHO, even Lin Dan himself agreed that these sort of things happened in Korea often.
..well, if he "himself agree that these sort of things happened in Korea often", we surely didn't see him stay prepare to that "sort of things", did we??.. :p

I don't think the dubious line calls made Lin Dan snap. According to Badzine, since someone here quoted that Christian Hadinata agreed that Lin Dan was the "true champion of KO 2008" :eek:, the main root of Lin Dan's aggression was Li Mao's reaction.
...
..for the most part, yes, i would agree that his outburst was affected by LiMao (said/muttered or did). But i wouldn't rule him out being somewhat affected by the previous calls, eventhough all of them were over-ruled. Even the last one, he nearly went berserk, as if he never expected that. IF he was "ready about what would happen in Korea", wouldn't he accept the call and concentrate on his next play and move on? In a way, at the end, all the over-ruled calls affected his play. And, IMO, LiMao's reaction, on the last call, capped off LD's emotional night.

[badMania]

..did I??:confused:...I thought i was questioning your comment as you were making that statement "in general" (not specific to any players)??..Did i misunderstand your comment?:confused:

..for the most part, yes, i would agree that his outburst was affected by LiMao (said/muttered or did). But i wouldn't rule out him being somewhat affected by the previous calls, eventhough all of them were over-ruled. Even the last one, he nearly went berserk, as if he never expected that. IF he was "ready about what would happen in Korea", wouldn't he accept the call and concentrate on his next play and move on? In a way, at the end, all the over-ruled calls affected his play. And LiMao's reaction, on the last call, capped off his emotional night.

My bad then :o Yes, I was making that statement "in general" :rolleyes:

Of course players would still be affected by those dubious linecalls, esp at the crucial pt, deuce, rubber-set. If that linecall happened at 20-4 in the first set, Lin Dan would not even bother with it. So, situation also played a role here. It happened that the last controversial call unfortunatelly was ruled in favor of Lee Hyun Il to give him match pt :cool: That was the part that also contributed to Lin Dan's frustration at that moment.

Going back to the INA Open 2006, where Bao Chunlai was at a similar situation I believe, 20-20 or 19-19 at that time and there was a dubious call ruled in favor of Taufik Hidayat eventually. Bao would have gone berserk like Lin Dan because that was such a crucial point, but, he chose to calm down and accepted the loss, which eventually happened.

[eaglehelang]

1) LD's violence??? If that is your idea of violence you have led a very very sheltered life. I don't condone what LD did and I'm no fan of China but get over it. The yellow card was approriate, end of story.

2) For those of you clamouring for the harshest punishment get some perspective!! You guys are acting like he stormed the Korean bench and beat the coach about the head with his racquet. As it stands the coaches, who actually did make physical contact, are the ones who should be up for a fine.

1) Maybe not in your country but like Badmania said, in certain countries, if it happened to civilians in daily life like you or me, LD can be charged in criminal court.
Even if it's a blunt object and it didnt hit anybody, if the intended 'target' wanted to press charges - the attacker have to appear in court.

If it's a sharp object.... can be charged with intent to kill, even if it didnt hit anybody - I already posted abt this, actually happened to my ex-colleague . so it depends on the laws of your country.

2) As for comparision, taufik did not get ranking pts & prize money for walking out of HK 2006. That's just for walking out of the match without umpire agreeing. Some ppl here actually voted no penalty....

[X Ball]

can u named some of it?:rolleyes:

One is bad enough.:rolleyes:

[X Ball]

I am wondering why ppl still brooding over the controversial call and not on Lin Dan's violence here :mad: I thought the later one is more serious :o

Because they fail to understand the seriousness and have got no idea of the consequences.

[samuel882]

2006 MAS Open Quarterfinals
Peter Gade vs LCW
There was many bad line calls against Gade during the match
Gade did protest against the umpire but TO NOT AVAIL; he just waved his hand and continued the match
He lost the match eventually.
After the match ended, a reporter went to interview Peter.
He never mentioned anything regarding the BAD Calls, just said LEE CW was too excellent on that day. He said he will be back strongly next time ( A MAN TO HIS WORDS -- He won the MAS Open SS MS Title in 2007)
Even though Peter lost that match, he won praises from the way he react post-match.
WIN Or LOSE in a match sometimes is out of the players' control ; Since they can't change the results. Why need to debate and keep on arguing

[badMania]

2006 MAS Open Quarterfinals
Peter Gade vs LCW
There was many bad line calls against Gade during the match
Gade did protest against the umpire but TO NOT AVAIL; he just waved his hand and continued the match
He lost the match eventually.
After the match ended, a reporter went to interview Peter.
He never mentioned anything regarding the BAD Calls, just said LEE CW was too excellent on that day. He said he will be back strongly next time ( A MAN TO HIS WORDS -- He won the MAS Open SS MS Title in 2007)
Even though Peter lost that match, he won praises from the way he react post-match.
WIN Or LOSE in a match sometimes is out of the players' control ; Since they can't change the results. Why need to debate and keep on arguing

Yup......bad calls happen everywhere...so move on ppl.

[yen_saw]

None of all these controversy would have happened if instant reply is implemented. But i agree, let bygone be bygone. As long as BWF learn the lesson, will they?

[ye333]

I said the match is not "totally unfair", I didn't say the line judges are not "totally unfair". There is this official called "umpire" who is able to cancel the unfairness of the line judges (and he did a pretty good job). Are you really unable to see the difference? :eek: Or more probably you are just trying to mix things up. :cool:

A professional player should not get personal with line judges and should only care about his points. So if LD is professional enough, he should not let the 4 overruled calls affect his mind.


I only replies ye333 comment about fair line-judges, but maybe my comment wasn't complete so other BC members possibly misunderstood it.

[ye333]

If you are talking about ZYW getting 11 service faults, I think a Korean female player got a similar amount in another match. Both players are among the shorter ones, so it's more probably just different standards. At least, it's anti-Asia not anti-China.

And Chn benefited from controversial calls too. BCL benefited from controversial calls in his games against LCW and LHI. In particular, in the BCL-LHI match, there were 3 controversial calls in 4 consecutive points, all benefited BCL.

In both matches LCW and LHI dropped their racket as protests. Some ppl said they "smashed" their rackets, I suggest them go watch the videos again.


to be fair, CHN players also suffers so many wrong calls.
WC 06 & Ina 06 is the best examples.

[ye333]

That's the point. Instant replay + neutral umpire + neutral service judge should be able to guarantee enough fairness.


None of all these controversy would have happened if instant reply is implemented. But i agree, let bygone be bygone. As long as BWF learn the lesson, will they?

[cooler]

to be fair, CHN players also suffers so many wrong calls.
WC 06 & Ina 06 is the best examples.and in MO too...

[cooler]

U must have forgotten the boohaha at the Malaysia Open 2006 :cool:

Oh....is it possible that at that time you still don't know who is Lin Dan :o?
yup, bad line calls over there too

[ye333]

So bad line calls justify everything? :eek: Or they only justify everything LD did, but other ppl has to act as gentlemen?


yup, bad line calls over there too

[OneToughBirdie]

None of all these controversy would have happened if instant reply is implemented. But i agree, let bygone be bygone. As long as BWF learn the lesson, will they?

Bad line calls will recur again as long as BWF is too cheap or is it because of lack of funding/sponsors cannot afford Hawkeye…maybe incidence like this will generate more global interest than the great game itself...at least in BC, the most talked about topic with so many posts and threads than ever before, even ZM winning WSF going through 3 previous champions get no mention…game fixing, bad calls, etc are part of game strategy nowadays all with the goal of winning at all costs...simply put if 'you did not cheat to win, you did not try hard enough to win'.
When I watch/play baddy again, after 20 years of not even playing the sport since I left MAS, it was because of watching ZJH-JS match, and then watching LD-TH rivalry and skills, so much so, I organized the trip to WC05 with 16 people to see these players live...it was the sheer delight in watching world class players in action more than I care who is winning what that capture my interest...really, if BWF cannot ride on the backs of these players to advance baddy, improve the game like tennis does and with coaches fixing game outcomes, bad calls, etc that does not help the cause one bit....and after LD, TH, LCW and PG retire, I cannot see baddy going anywhere, not with the current people running BWF.

[cooler]

1) Maybe not in your country but like Badmania said, in certain countries, if it happened to civilians in daily life like you or me, LD can be charged in criminal court.
Even if it's a blunt object and it didnt hit anybody, if the intended 'target' wanted to press charges - the attacker have to appear in court.

If it's a sharp object.... can be charged with intent to kill, even if it didnt hit anybody - I already posted abt this, actually happened to my ex-colleague . so it depends on the laws of your country.

....since u have mentioned this twice, here is a precedent

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19785&postcount=1

[ye333]

It's obviously a mistake that TH didn't get some severe punishment. And further it's PBSI's mistake, not BWF's. So what's your point? :confused:

Furthermore we can compare TH and LD's attitutes. TH basically said, I did something bad, I had my reasons. I am ready to go on court; LD basically said, I did something not very appropriate, but that's because I am patriotic, I was trying to punish a traitor, so no one should blame me. Very funny.


since u have mentioned this twice, here is a precedent

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19785&postcount=1

[zqloy]

yup, bad line calls over there too

Yr point? Or u r trying to say LD lose to LCW in MO06 because of the linecalls?

[cooler]

It's obviously a mistake that TH didn't get some severe punishment. And further it's PBSI's mistake, not BWF's. So what's your point? :confused:

Furthermore we can compare TH and LD's attitutes. TH basically said, I did something bad, I had my reasons. I am ready to go on court; LD basically said, I did something not very appropriate, but that's because I am patriotic, I was trying to punish a traitor, so no one should blame me. Very funny.my point was to reply to eaglehelang, plus u have illustrated my point.
Beside, this KO incident hasn't come to full conclusion yet, u can't speculate what LD would say or not say.

[yen_saw]

Bad line calls will recur again as long as BWF is too cheap or is it because of lack of funding/sponsors cannot afford Hawkeye…maybe incidence like this will generate more global interest than the great game itself...at least in BC, the most talked about topic with so many posts and threads than ever before, even ZM winning WSF going through 3 previous champions get no mention…game fixing, bad calls, etc are part of game strategy nowadays all with the goal of winning at all costs...simply put if 'you did not cheat to win, you did not try hard enough to win'.
When I watch/play baddy again, after 20 years of not even playing the sport since I left MAS, it was because of watching ZJH-JS match, and then watching LD-TH rivalry and skills, so much so, I organized the trip to WC05 with 16 people to see these players live...it was the sheer delight in watching world class players in action more than I care who is winning what that capture my interest...really, if BWF cannot ride on the backs of these players to advance baddy, improve the game like tennis does and with coaches fixing game outcomes, bad calls, etc that does not help the cause one bit....and after LD, TH, LCW and PG retire, I cannot see baddy going anywhere, not with the current people running BWF.


Yep. Financial issue is always there i guess. Just look at the winner prize, is a shame badminton winning is just the tip of iceburg compare to other sports like Tennis and golf, where first place winner get a cool million USD, when will that happen in badminton?

[cooler]

yup, bad line calls over there too


Yr point? Or u r trying to say LD lose to LCW in MO06 because of the linecalls?


i know how to type.
my point is as written.
beyond that, it is your words

[ye333]

I paraphrased what LD said so far. Please point out any inaccuracy.


my point was to reply to eaglehelang, plus u have illustrated my point.
Beside, this KO incident hasn't come to full conclusion yet, u can't speculate what LD would say or not say.

[badMania]

since u have mentioned this twice, here is a precedent

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19785&postcount=1

LOL...u actually digged up an article from 2001....:eek:

[cooler]

LOL...u actually digged up an article from 2001....:eek:I like to present a balance point of view and many people have short memory and conveniently gloss over historical events. Unfortunately, some see me as anti-TH:rolleyes::o

[badMania]

my point was to reply to eaglehelang, plus u have illustrated my point.
Beside, this KO incident hasn't come to full conclusion yet, u can't speculate what LD would say or not say.

ye333 is right. Read the comments made by Lin Dan, quoted on Badzine. It's pretty clear that he had gotten over the bad linecall. Yet, its the sight of Li Mao, complaning and gesturing, and uttering some words to him that irked him and pushed him towards making that act of agression :eek:

And as I mentioned earlier, bad linecalls happened all the time. Some even said it happened in the World Championships 2006 (mostly service faults issues), so, move on! No tournament is 100% perfect. As far as I am concerned, the level of umpiring in that MS Final match was probably the best we can have in Korea on that day. Imagine if the umpire himself was a Korean. Lin Dan would probably not wait until the ending of the third set to commit that act.

Accept the fact that Korea is notorious for biased linejudges, and to think that Lin Dan should be mentally prepared for it too.

As samuel mentioned, if Peter Gade and Bao Chunlai can accept their loss at the Malaysia Open 2006 and Indonesia Open 2006, even though there were biased linecalls against them, without resorting to violence, then the question is: Why Lin Dan failed to do the same in Korea Open 2008?

[ye333]

I digged that out a few months ago too. :D

Has it ever been found out exactly why TH got mad? What did the spectator (not the one got beaten, TH beated the wrong person LOL) say? Something personal or just "you suck in badminton"?


LOL...u actually digged up an article from 2001....:eek:

[cooler]

I digged that out a few months ago too. :D

Has it ever been found out exactly why TH got mad? What did the spectator (not the one got beaten, TH beated the wrong person LOL) say? Something personal or just "you suck in badminton"?please just read that link for reference, and refrain from discussing it in this thread in detail or else mod will delete it as O.T.

[ye333]

Hi you are not the moderator. So please refrain from telling me what to do. Thanks.

If Kwun thought my question should not appear here, just delete it. No big deal. I really want to know what exactly happened in that incident since I am tired of some ppl always using it to justify whatever their favorite player did.


please just read that link for reference, and refrain from discussing it in this thread in detail or else mod will delete it as O.T.

[SiuMcFung]

I digged that out a few months ago too. :D

Has it ever been found out exactly why TH got mad? What did the spectator (not the one got beaten, TH beated the wrong person LOL) say? Something personal or just "you suck in badminton"?


u digged it out months ago!??!
then how comes all this time u been moaning JUST abt LD n not TH :rolleyes:
double standards?:p

[volcom]

Thankfully we still have cooler to bring sanity and justice among many angry critics and those just wanna take a cheap shot at LD cos he is considered super :p!!

Jia You cooler keep fighting, we know the righteous will always prevail in the end! Against super blatant haters who have always been haters of LD as can be seen from posts in various other threads!

The way I see, no penalty should be given to LD. I'm sure it won't happen again.

[volcom]

Also who can deny that the Taufik incident is more serious? But what was done to him? Seriously what if the bottle he had thrown killed someone? or permanently injured someone? What if he accidentally beat the guy to death or crippled him?

Double standards?

[ye333]

What's the point talking about some thing happened 6 years ago? And there is nothing new in this report anyway.


u digged it out months ago!??!
then how comes all this time u been moaning JUST abt LD n not TH :rolleyes:
double standards?:p

[ye333]

I don't think anyone said TH should not be punished. It's PBSI's fault that TH escaped punishment. So PBSI made a mistake, then BWF must follow? In fact, if that's your argument, then TH should not be punished in 06 for walking out of the court either.


Also who can deny that the Taufik incident is more serious? But what was done to him? Seriously what if the bottle he had thrown killed someone? or permanently injured someone? What if he accidentally beat the guy to death or crippled him?

Double standards?

[LazyBuddy]

If we are talking about a match being fair or not, we have to look at the result right? If a biased line call is overruled, then no harm done.

I don't know what kinda ideal world you live in, we can simply look at the result, and totally ignore the process.

So, if a lousy cop simply does not like you, always try to pull you over, give you biased tickets, or even threaten you to put you in jail, event if the judge later on overruled most of them, you still consider you have a perfect day? Don't you have emotion, or consider your valueable time and effort to be wasted? Don't you feel pissed off, as all of such should NEVER happen to begin with? :eek:

The problem is the MSF, is there are way too many biased ones, and which makes kinda obvious why LD got over the boiling point. Again, I am not saying what he did is totally right. However, i also need to see what lead to all these.

[cooler]

What's the point talking about some thing happened 6 years ago? And there is nothing new in this report anyway.
remember,only 38 minutes ago, it was me suggesting restraint from further elaboration while u wanted to know everyting about that incident.:rolleyes:
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=784769&postcount=303

[LazyBuddy]

So bad line calls justify everything? :eek: Or they only justify everything LD did, but other ppl has to act as gentlemen?

Bad line calls don't justify everything, that's why including myself, many ppl agree LD should receive some penalty, but definitely not something more than 2 SS or even ban from OG as some others suggested.

Even if serious crime such as murder, the judge needs to carefully evaluate difference between intentional vs. un-intentional, whether any psychological issues or self defense involved, etc. Based on all the fact, I am nto saying ppl can simply walk away, but their penalty can be reduced, due to other leading factors. Simply say, "you are fine, as the other start the fight" or "you have a life sentence, because the other is dead" is not acceptable, from any countries' standard. :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

What's the point talking about some thing happened 6 years ago? And there is nothing new in this report anyway.

Ok, now you agree chewing some old fruits is tasteless? :rolleyes:

Tell me all the "anti CHN" fans. Why every time in a discussion, all the old stories about GZC got yr 2000 Olympic title, team CHN match fix, LYB shouting "break leg", all coming out over and over?

Do you want to say, all such and such happened all in 1 day? :p

[cooler]

Bad line calls don't justify everything, that's why including myself, many ppl agree LD should receive some penalty, but definitely not something more than 2 SS or even ban from OG as some others suggested.

Even if serious crime such as murder, the judge needs to carefully evaluate difference between intentional vs. un-intentional, whether any psychological issues or self defense involved, etc. Based on all the fact, I am nto saying ppl can simply walk away, but their penalty can be reduced, due to other leading factors. Simply say, "you are fine, as the other start the fight" or "you have a life sentence, because the other is dead" is not acceptable, from any countries' standard. :cool:
unfortunately, i doubt that BWF staff have the quality juridical background or experience and therefore, likely swayed by sentiment of surrounding people and/or environment. Is BWF headquartered in KL, MAL?

[ye333]

You must be kidding. I was not saying it's not appropriate to mention TH's 2001 incident in the current situation, that is LD did a similar thing. I just said when I digged that news out, I just wanted to know what happened 6 years ago, and that article did not provide me any information I hadn't already known. Then what's the point bring it up?

Maybe you can tell me how should I bring it up a few months ago, without LD's incident? Write a topic "Oh, I found this news about TH beating a spectator 6 years ago", saying "although it tells me nothing new and is not relevant to any current incidents, I think I should copy it here so that everyone read it?" :confused:


Ok, now you agree chewing some old fruits is tasteless? :rolleyes:

Tell me all the "anti CHN" fans. Why every time in a discussion, all the old stories about GZC got yr 2000 Olympic title, team CHN match fix, LYB shouting "break leg", all coming out over and over?

Do you want to say, all such and such happened all in 1 day? :p

[ye333]

First, if you have read my posts, I never said LD should receive a suspension of more than 2 SSs, not to say ban him from OG. My opinion is he should be banned from Singapore and Indonesian SSs, so that BWF looks good, and LD actually have time to concentrate on OG and Thomas Cup, which are more important to LYB.

Are you saying LD was throwing the racket "unintentionally"? Or as "self-defence"? :eek: LM made a complaint and LD need to "self-defense" by throwing racket at LM?


Bad line calls don't justify everything, that's why including myself, many ppl agree LD should receive some penalty, but definitely not something more than 2 SS or even ban from OG as some others suggested.

Even if serious crime such as murder, the judge needs to carefully evaluate difference between intentional vs. un-intentional, whether any psychological issues or self defense involved, etc. Based on all the fact, I am nto saying ppl can simply walk away, but their penalty can be reduced, due to other leading factors. Simply say, "you are fine, as the other start the fight" or "you have a life sentence, because the other is dead" is not acceptable, from any countries' standard. :cool:

[kwun]

now how do i LOCK a thread but leave the poll running??

[ctjcad]

now how do i LOCK a thread but leave the poll running??
..i'm praying, as of now, that kwun doesn't press that button...:( :crying::p

[Athelete1234]

You lock for one day to let people calm down, then open it again tomorrow?

[kwun]

You lock for one day to let people calm down, then open it again tomorrow?

good suggestion. locked.

[chris-ccc]

now how do i LOCK a thread but leave the poll running??



.
So I've just managed to vote and to do a post in this thread. :):):)

I've voted for the Large Fine ＆ Suspension for LD.

And to fans of LD...... Don't Worry. Even if LD were to be suspended for many tournaments between now and the OG 2008, LD should still be safe, to be included as a participant at the Beijing Olympics 2008.:cool::cool::cool:
.

[ThePlayer]

Someone may claim that many bad calls are over-ruled. So there is no harm done. It is not ture.

If you are opposite player. You know the line judges are againsty you. What do you do? You have to avoid to hit shuttle close to side line and base line. You have to pick up every shut that is close to side line and base line even you think the shot is out. Think that will do to your game.

If a player has so much to worry during the game. A 1st rate player can be beat by a 2nd rate player.

[hcyong]

Please seperate the issues.

1. Linejudging - definitely an issue that needs to be taken care of, though I don't expect anything in the short term. However, nothing can be done about the particular linejudge. Nothing can change the result anymore. So, focus on how to improve linejudging in the future and forget about how LD should have won etc. etc.

2. Li Mao - yes, probably at fault, but what exactly the fault is (standing up, speaking up to the umpire, or just being plain unpatriotic to the mother country) and how much his fault is ... we should argue as a seperate issue

3. Lin Dan - yes, him. This thread is about him. Should he be punished for throwing the racquet aimed at another person? Think objectively. I know it's difficult, but don't compare it to what others got away with last time; should we continue to let players get away with it? Is it permissible to throw racquets at officials, players, coaches even if they all conspire to make you lose? That is the issue. Please stick to this issue in this thread.

(FYI, I voted for 1 SS ban.)

[ants]

There will be only 2 Issues that have to be pointed out.
1. Line Judging - irrespective of countries.
2. LinDan's action.

Li Mao will not be involved in any punishments. Reason is that he reacted after LinDan threw the racket towards him. And then the China Coaching staff went over to prevent any fighting due to Lindan's action.

[Joe P]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it used to be that if you weren't happy with a particular line judge (say after a number of calls you think are wrong), you are able to have that particular line judge replaced. I saw an example of this during the 1991 World Champs mixed doubles finals between a Korean pair and a Danish pair. The Koreans (after a number of calls they thought were bad) asked for a line judge to be replaced, and he was.

Is this still the case? Does anyone know?

Back to this thread's topic though, while I do sympathize with Lin Dan because I know how frustrating it can be when you are getting bad line calls, especially when you feel that you are playing well enough to win the game; I also agree that he should be punished for his racquet throwing antics.

If I was handing out the punishment, a 2-tournament (SS) suspension and a fine will be sufficient. One tournament suspension plus the fine initially for the offense, plus one more tournament suspension since he is also unrepentant over what he had done.

No matter the circumstances, and whether or not he was probably right at the end of the day, there is no excusing his behaviour on the day; and there should be zero-tolerance for that kind of behaviour.

Joe P.

[badMania]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it used to be that if you weren't happy with a particular line judge (say after a number of calls you think are wrong), you are able to have that particular line judge replaced. I saw an example of this during the 1991 World Champs mixed doubles finals between a Korean pair and a Danish pair. The Koreans (after a number of calls they thought were bad) asked for a line judge to be replaced, and he was.

Is this still the case? Does anyone know?

I think there were some matches in which the line judge was replaced :rolleyes: I remembered the Hong Kong Open 2007 (if I am not wrong) when I was present to watch those matches. In one of them, the line judge was indeed replaced by the referee :cool:

No matter the circumstances, and whether or not he was probably right at the end of the day, there is no excusing his behaviour on the day; and there should be zero-tolerance for that kind of behaviour.

You nailed down the issue here!

[badMania]

Li Mao will not be involved in any punishments. Reason is that he reacted after LinDan threw the racket towards him. And then the China Coaching staff went over to prevent any fighting due to Lindan's action.

Ah...this would piss many Lin Dan's supporters :o

[hcyong]

Problem with these sort of discussions is that there are too much assumptions (on both sides). Just because I say LD need to be punished, I am assumed to be an LD-hater and lumped with "all those Malaysian fans" whatever that means. And I am assumed to put the blame solely on LD. Kick him when he's down. Well, I'm not an LD-hater but sorry, I can't prove it.

I know that there are those who take this opportunity to kick LD in the teeth while they can. But they are no different from those who want to absolve LD from any blame. Please be more objective.

[sepang]

I'm surprise to see almost 25% of voters said no penalty. Are they purely LD's fan?
I'm LCW fan. If LCW would throw the racket aiming on people, I sure vote large fine and suspension.

[hcyong]

Unfortunately, looking at the poll results, I can only feel that most of the BCers are extremists (no penalty & large fine and suspension).

[ye333]

That surprised me too... A huge group of LD fans, another huge group of LD haters?

The mean is OK, but the deviation is HUGE! :eek:


Unfortunately, looking at the poll results, I can only feel that most of the BCers are extremists (no penalty & large fine and suspension).

[Hitman71]

That surprised me too... A huge group of LD fans, another huge group of LD haters?

The mean is OK, but the deviation is HUGE! :eek:

Is it possible that a same person is voting more than 1, by registering with diff username and email account. Somehow I feel that this is the case ...

[sepang]

I'm 100% not LD hater. I admire LD skill and physical strength but I can not accept this kind of behavior on court. I never see this kind of behavior is acceptable in any sport except ICE HOCKEY. Therefore, ICE hockey never make it to my watch list.

[Smash-Tajam]

Dear badminton lovers,
Since LinDan's action triggered the attention from BWF to look into bad line judge issue even further, I give him no penalty for his contribution to support fair play.

At a more personal note, this is quite entertaining for the sport, so no penalty for LinDan too, hehe..

[Joyous]

Dear badminton lovers,
Since LinDan's action triggered the attention from BWF to look into bad line judge issue even further, I give him no penalty for his contribution to support fair play.

At a more personal note, this is quite entertaining for the sport, so no penalty for LinDan too, hehe..


Yes someone has to be the 'bad bad' guy in order to wake BWF up. TH's 'earthquake' re-action in 06 did not jolt them then. I feel BWF has to take into consideration verbal abuse as well because it can be a silently destructive too.

[taufik-ist]

Dear badminton lovers,
Since LinDan's action triggered the attention from BWF to look into bad line judge issue even further, I give him no penalty for his contribution to support fair play.

At a more personal note, this is quite entertaining for the sport, so no penalty for LinDan too, hehe..


what lindan did in korean open 2008 is quite entertaining for the sport ???? :eek: :eek: :eek:...

[JasonMichael]

whoa... entertaining??? then we can bring in the circus people to have a ball.:D

[chris-ccc]

.
Although I have voted for the Large Fine ＆ Suspension, it was not meant for LD alone, but for anyone who behaved like that.
.



At a more personal note, this is quite entertaining for the sport, so no penalty for Lin Dan too, hehe..



.
Smash-Tajam, you must be kidding to call this entertainment. :(:(:(

Your comment is not tajam enough. :D:D:D

If no penalty is to be given to LD... What type of behaviour would we expect from all other players at future tournaments, BWF or local? :o:o:o
.

[tyran]

whoa... entertaining??? then we can bring in the circus people to have a ball.:D

or we can bring WWF people too.:D

[chris-ccc]

Yes someone has to be the 'bad bad' guy in order to wake BWF up. TH's 'earthquake' re-action in 06 did not jolt them then. I feel BWF has to take into consideration verbal abuse as well because it can be a silently destructive too.



.
Agree with you Joyous, :):):)

No verbal abuses should be tolerated.

We want to watch Badminton matches, not verbal matches.
.

[Smash-Tajam]

Hi,

When I watch Formula 1, I always hope for some accdents to happen in order to make it more dramatic, I thought most audience are like me too, no ? I guess not the same case for badminton then.. :-)

Anyway I just downloaded 2008 Malaysia Open SF game between LeeCW and ChenYu, quite a numbers of difficult line calls were made in favor for ChenYu instead of the Malaysian, that makes Malaysia Open one of the best tournament in terms of fair play(by today's standard), and through the history of All England, the line judge seems to be very professional as well, very sharp and consistent calls, lets hope this tradition will continue in the upcoming 2008 AE.

[chris-ccc]

whoa... entertaining??? then we can bring in the circus people to have a ball.:D



.
Hahaha... You are funny JasonMichael,

Perhaps, during the intervals, let's have the circus acts come in. :D:D:D
.

[chris-ccc]

When I watch Formula 1, I always hope for some accidents to happen in order to make it more dramatic, I thought most audience are like me too, no ?



.
Perhaps for you Smash-Tajam, the Demolition Derby should be more interesting than the Formula 1. :D:D:D

What is a Demolition Derby?...... Here's a link for you, located at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_derby

:):):)
.

[Simp84]

Dear badminton lovers,
Since LinDan's action triggered the attention from BWF to look into bad line judge issue even further, I give him no penalty for his contribution to support fair play.

At a more personal note, this is quite entertaining for the sport, so no penalty for LinDan too, hehe..
LD supporting fair play? I think you should look back into his history, this guy never supported fair play, from tempering with shuttles, insulting opponent, to time wasting. Do you think LD really cares if the line judge is in his favor? He loves it

Look @ HK06 when he played against Kenneth Jonassen, there were so many calls that favored LD, did he really care? In fact he even hushed KJ for trying to protest, in the end KJ just gave up the match in protest against the poor line call, (take a look at the crowds response here, poor Kenneth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW87dJWMnjw).

For those of you who manage to get hold of OG04 when LD played against Ronald. Ronald protested against a bad line call, and he just wanted to politely inquire from the umpire, guess what LinDan did? Yell back and signed at his opponent to shut up.

I find it so funny when this guy is trying to sound all righteous and manipulate all the fans attention to support him. Keep making patriotic pro-Chinese speech to get his countrymen to sympathise him. Surely he himself realise the severity of his action, however as a stubborn person who wants to save face he had no choice but to play down this road.

[eaglehelang]

Problem with these sort of discussions is that there are too much assumptions (on both sides). Just because I say LD need to be punished, I am assumed to be an LD-hater and lumped with "all those Malaysian fans" whatever that means. And I am assumed to put the blame solely on LD. Kick him when he's down. Well, I'm not an LD-hater but sorry, I can't prove it.

I know that there are those who take this opportunity to kick LD in the teeth while they can. But they are no different from those who want to absolve LD from any blame. Please be more objective.

It's ok, some of us put up some facts to counter those points;).
Some either forgot or are unaware that some Msians are also the 1st to critise if Msian players are effected by bad line calls. They dont seem to look thru the previous posts or threads 1st.

Reading the translations from China media (either computerized or manually done), their media is more 'patriotic', even defending LD. That never ever would happen if any of our players did what LD did.
We would vote for Huge Fine & suspension, and a host of other punishments too.

[sepang]

FAIR PLAY? You must be kidding.

Just no long ago, LD lost his game on first route to Korean player and told the media that he didn't feel like playing in home court. All the calls are favored to Korean player.

[LazyBuddy]

Are you saying LD was throwing the racket "unintentionally"? Or as "self-defence"? :eek: LM made a complaint and LD need to "self-defense" by throwing racket at LM?


If we are talking about a match being fair or not, we have to look at the result right? If a biased line call is overruled, then no harm done.

My opinion: as a professional player, 5 biased calls with 4 overruled should be the same as 1 biased call. I got cheated once in both cases. I lose exactly one point in both cases. Maybe you can tell me what's the difference as long as only the match is concerned.



My example of "murder crime" was to argue your point of "only looking at the result". To me, justify a case from the result only, is as biased as the bad line calls. :cool:

[ye333]

I don't remember your example of "murder crime"... I only remember someone give a "bad cop" example, for which I pointed out that to be a good analogy to the current situation, there must actually be a "good cop" with higher rank patrolling together with the bad one, and this "good cop" immediately overruled the "bad cop"'s biased decisions.

My point again: in general, a player may get angry because line judges are acting against him (even if the umpire overruled the calls). But that's not good for himself, that's not professional. Since ensuring "fair-play" is not the player's responsibility, the player should only care about getting points.

It's like "road-rage". Someone cut you off intentionally, you may get angry. But if you are a mature person knowing your responsibilities, you should know you have many important things to do and should not let your temper get hold of you.

Btw, do you think Flandy Limpele got "affected" after the umpire overrule a much more blatant line call? I don't think so.

You guys are spoiling LD. :D


My example of "murder crime" was to argue your point of "only looking at the result". To me, justify a case from the result only, is as biased as the bad line calls. :cool:

[ants]

Ah...this would piss many Lin Dan's supporters :o

Sad to say.. but its true. I also don't want Lindan to get a severe punishment as well. I guess he has to deal with the consequences. Even as friend, i also hope for the best.

[LazyBuddy]

I don't remember your example of "murder crime"... I only remember someone give a "bad cop" example, for which I pointed out that to be a good analogy to the current situation, there must actually be a "good cop" with higher rank patrolling together with the bad one, and this "good cop" immediately overruled the "bad cop"'s biased decisions.

My point again: in general, a player may get angry because line judges are acting against him (even if the umpire overruled the calls). But that's not good for himself, that's not professional. Since ensuring "fair-play" is not the player's responsibility, the player should only care about getting points.

It's like "road-rage". Someone cut you off intentionally, you may get angry. But if you are a mature person knowing your responsibilities, you should know you have many important things to do and should not let your temper get hold of you.

Btw, do you think Flandy Limpele got "affected" after the umpire overrule a much more blatant line call? I don't think so.

You guys are spoiling LD. :D


I was the one gives the "bad cop" analogy. ;) Man, I seems just like the law stories. :o

Anyway, I do agree with your "road rage" example, as we should behave and obey rules, even under extreme conditions. However, as I repeatly pointing out, we are human but not robots. We have emotion, which could cause some issues. Like your "road rage" case, what about you are not happy, honking repeatly to warn the other driver, then cop gives you a ticket? Do you at least try to argue your way to protest? What about you are getting nervous, trying to changing lanes and result into an accident? Do you at least, provide the story and try to protect your own rights? I am sure, when you face the other driver, you might yell him/her out from your lungs. Again, I am not saving it could be right, or it will get you into deeper trouble. However, I understand it's human, and it's understandable.

Well, I guess we at least agreed that certain penalty should be given. Whether how serious or whether BWF want to consider the "causes", it's another story. :rolleyes:

[ye333]

I never said getting angry at line judges is a "crime" or something like that. What I always said is that such behavior is stupid and unprofessional. :cool:

What would happen if when the cop was deciding my case, there is another guy who tried to persuade the cop that I was guilty, and then I lost control and threw my cell-phone at this guy? ;)


I was the one gives the "bad cop" analogy. ;) Man, I seems just like the law stories. :o

Anyway, I do agree with your "road rage" example, as we should behave and obey rules, even under extreme conditions. However, as I repeatly pointing out, we are human but not robots. We have emotion, which could cause some issues. Like your "road rage" case, what about you are not happy, honking repeatly to warn the other driver, then cop gives you a ticket? Do you at least try to argue your way to protest? What about you are getting nervous, trying to changing lanes and result into an accident? Do you at least, provide the story and try to protect your own rights? I am sure, when you face the other driver, you might yell him/her out from your lungs. Again, I am not saving it could be right, or it will get you into deeper trouble. However, I understand it's human, and it's understandable.

Well, I guess we at least agreed that certain penalty should be given. Whether how serious or whether BWF want to consider the "causes", it's another story. :rolleyes:

[LazyBuddy]

What would happen if when the cop was deciding my case, there is another guy who tried to persuade the cop that I was guilty, and then I lost control and threw my cell-phone at this guy? ;)

You should be punished, at the spot.

However, once got into the court room, the judge should consider what's the intention of the 3rd party is. If s/he fairly explain his/her observation (whether it's correct or not, due to angle of observation), you taking full responsibility. If s/he simply lying (i.e. the other party's friend, and intentionally mis-lead the judgement), you might be set free. :rolleyes:

[hcyong]

I was the one gives the "bad cop" analogy. ;) Man, I seems just like the law stories. :o

Anyway, I do agree with your "road rage" example, as we should behave and obey rules, even under extreme conditions. However, as I repeatly pointing out, we are human but not robots. We have emotion, which could cause some issues. Like your "road rage" case, what about you are not happy, honking repeatly to warn the other driver, then cop gives you a ticket? Do you at least try to argue your way to protest? What about you are getting nervous, trying to changing lanes and result into an accident? Do you at least, provide the story and try to protect your own rights? I am sure, when you face the other driver, you might yell him/her out from your lungs. Again, I am not saving it could be right, or it will get you into deeper trouble. However, I understand it's human, and it's understandable.

Well, I guess we at least agreed that certain penalty should be given. Whether how serious or whether BWF want to consider the "causes", it's another story. :rolleyes:

In that case, any crime is understandable, because arrogance, greed, jealousy, mental illness etc. are all human nature.

So, no matter who does wrong, whether LD or Taufik or Hitler, we should understand them.

Note: I'm not linking Hitler with LD or Taufik.

Actually, I do understand LD's frustration, but his racquet-throwing (and especially the look on his face when he threw the racquet) is just totally out of control. He needs a reality check, but I doubt he will ever get one because many people still thinks he is right, therefore he also thinks he is right.

[hcyong]

whoa... entertaining??? then we can bring in the circus people to have a ball.:D

Despite everything, I think it is entertaining. (yes, I am that shallow.)

And though many will disagree, I don't think it hurts the image of badminton at all.

[Loh]

Despite everything, I think it is entertaining. (yes, I am that shallow.)

And though many will disagree, I don't think it hurts the image of badminton at all.

On the contrary, more may be attracted to badminton. Remember what "big-mouth" McEnroe did for tennis? :D

[cooler]

If we are just talk in the context of badminton popularity, LD's racket throwing isn't gonna do any damage as most of u keep harping about (maybe even an opposite effect as it sure wipe out our 'sissy' sport image). More serious altercation like fights and rumbles in ice hockey, basketball, and head slamming assault in soccer sure didn't hurt one bit to those sports.

What hurts badminton IMO is poor/inconsistent officiating/line judging, and cheating of prize distribution. This is why badminton isnt popular yet, BWF is dragging its feet on this issue.

So please stop keep whining about LD's action is gonna hurt badminton. Give me some proofs. TH's past actions surely didn't hurt badminton, TH actually have more fans because of his bad boy image. Loud mouth john mckenroe (tennis) and loose mouth don cherry (hockey) actually promoted their respective sport.

[taneepak]

I think the title of this thread jumps the gun and implies that only one person is the guilty party and is awaiting sentence. This is a more complex problem than meets the eye. Maybe, a better name would be "Your views on the Korean Open Scuffles", which I believe is more in tune with the majority of the views since posted.

[azabaz_ipoh]

actually, i think kwun was trying to gauge the opinions of BC members on the kind of penalty LD should get for the throwing of the racket but BC members are not doing that but instead tries to cover the whole incident. there are other threads that were supposed to cater to the discussion of whether LD was the sole guilty party, the causes of the incident, the precedents to the incident and all that but due to the heated exchanges, those threads was locked. this thread should only be about the penalty for the racket throwing but alas it veered off course here too. :) nobody is saying that LD was the sole guilty party. even those who ask for penalty for LD's behaviour does not believe he is the sole guilty party in the whole incident.

[pjswift]

kwun's poll is objective because it allows for the option of LD being perceived as not guilty with the choice of 'no penalty'.Although the title sounds biased, looking at the results, voters seem independent enough to be swayed by it.
If posts were confined to be 100% on topic, it's gonna be dull and meaningless.Don't know about others but I'm more interested in how posters arrive at their decisions rather than their decisions.In the elaborations,(like this one?)going off-topic is likely but what's the harm when there's enlightenment?
There must be threads that have perfect 100% on topic posts that are more a waste of time and space.

[chris-ccc]

actually, i think kwun was trying to gauge the opinions of BC members on the kind of penalty LD should get for the throwing of the racket but BC members are not doing that but instead tries to cover the whole incident. there are other threads that were supposed to cater to the discussion of whether LD was the sole guilty party, the causes of the incident, the precedents to the incident and all that but due to the heated exchanges, those threads was locked.

this thread should only be about the penalty for the racket throwing but alas it veered off course here too. :) nobody is saying that LD was the sole guilty party. even those who ask for penalty for LD's behaviour does not believe he is the sole guilty party in the whole incident.



.
Yes, I agree with you azabaz_ipoh.

LD was the main factor in this equation to have caused the voilent incident.

As I have said in my earlier posts, LD could and/or should have asked for that certain linesperson be replaced.

It's much better for LD to ask, than for him to show his temper.

LD was definitely guilty for his action.

And mind you, he is not an inexperienced competitor on the Badminton stage.

:):):)
.

[SImplelenna]

:D:D first time in 18 yrs back to Pontianak for chinese new year....hehe...Kung Xi Fat Chai...Hung Pao Na lai....:D:D
so, your hometown in Pontianak, selamat datang...Imlek becoming a holiday now in Indonesia, enjoy the celebrate...:D

[Loh]

on the LD throwing his racket, there isn't a clear by-law on this infraction(correct me if i'm wrong). Therefore, BWF has a large degree of freedom on this matter. However, the by-law is clear on

1. walkout
2. coaches interferring with Umpire

Well actually we have something as follows in the Laws Of Badminton:

Law 3.5 During the match, the following situations shall be watched for and dealt with as detailed.

3.5.1 A player throwing a racket into the opponent's court or sliding under the net (and who also thereby obstructs or distracts an opponent), shall be faulted under Law 13.4.2 or 13.4.3 respectively.

13 FAULTS

It shall be a 'fault', if, in play, a player:

13.4.2 invades an opponent's court over the net with racket ...
13.4.3 invades an opponent's court under the net with racket ...

But no mention about punishment for LD's type of racket throwing and shouting conduct which is more severe, I believe. In a sense, BWF has great leeway on how LD should be punished! :eek:

[Dreamzz]

Well actually we have something as follows in the Laws Of Badminton:

Law 3.5 During the match, the following situations shall be watched for and dealt with as detailed.

3.5.1 A player throwing a racket into the opponent's court or sliding under the net (and who also thereby obstructs or distracts an opponent), shall be faulted under Law 13.4.2 or 13.4.3 respectively.

13 FAULTS

It shall be a 'fault', if, in play, a player:

13.4.2 invades an opponent's court over the net with racket ...
13.4.3 invades an opponent's court under the net with racket ...

But no mention about punishment for LD's type of racket throwing and shouting conduct which is more severe, I believe. In a sense, BWF has great leeway on how LD should be punished! :eek:

i think 13.4.2 and 13.4.3 are meant as a fault such as if a player tries to retrieve a shuttle and loses control of his racquet which then crosses over to the opponents court either under/over the net, then a fault is called and the opponent is awarded a point.

in LD's case, the matter is quite different, and far more malicious.

[tohcsh]

i felt that the vote options are to many
ie. suspension of 1 ss, suspension of 2 ss, fine of less US 1000.
It was hard to decide between 1 ss and 2 ss.
I believe if there is only 3 options (lump the above stated options together and categorize it as 'suspension to 2 ss and min fine' ) then the vote would be much more balance, we would have total of 97 instead of (27,28,42).
for example the last option has been categorize as large fine and suspension which make voting much easier for those that felt LD should be penalized to max. Why not just categorize option 2,4 and 5 just as min fine and limited suspension? This would make options easier and fairer to those that felt LD should be fine and suspended but to a minimum.
Now on the overal with so much options (suspension of 1 ss or 2 ss ) the last options seem to be on the winning end.

[Dreamzz]

i felt that the vote options are to many
ie. suspension of 1 ss, suspension of 2 ss, fine of less US 1000.
It was hard to decide between 1 ss and 2 ss.
I believe if there is only 3 options (lump the above stated options together and categorize it as 'suspension to 2 ss and min fine' ) then the vote would be much more balance, we would have total of 97 instead of (27,28,42).
for example the last option has been categorize as large fine and suspension which make voting much easier for those that felt LD should be penalized to max. Why not just categorize option 2,4 and 5 just as min fine and limited suspension? This would make options easier and fairer to those that felt LD should be fine and suspended but to a minimum.

ah, the voting is just for fun and to let the forumers express their views (as well as vent their frustrations - i suspect). i don't see any real need to adjust the categories/options.

[X Ball]

On the contrary, more may be attracted to badminton. Remember what "big-mouth" McEnroe did for tennis? :D

Sure, you can shout and you can argue and act like McEnroe. But remember, McEnroe never threw a racket at anyone.

[LazyBuddy]

Actually, I do understand LD's frustration, but his racquet-throwing (and especially the look on his face when he threw the racquet) is just totally out of control. He needs a reality check, but I doubt he will ever get one because many people still thinks he is right, therefore he also thinks he is right.

I agree.

Many CHN pro athlete enter the training centers when they were only 5, 6 yrs old. Everyday, the only person they need to deal with is teammates and coaches. Therefore, even though they are 20+ now days, many of them are quite childish. Partly because they are lacking of the social experience, and don't know (or don't care) how to properly behave. Partly because the good performers are spoiled, as many coaches rate the kids with only 1 standard - whether they are a good player, and totally ignore the human development process.

[Dreamzz]

I agree.

Many CHN pro athlete enter the training centers when they were only 5, 6 yrs old. Everyday, the only person they need to deal with is teammates and coaches. Therefore, even though they are 20+ now days, many of them are quite childish. Partly because they are lacking of the social experience, and don't know (or don't care) how to properly behave. Partly because the good performers are spoiled, as many coaches rate the kids with only 1 standard - whether they are a good player, and totally ignore the human development process.


wow, that's harsh, i hope that's not true. i'd like to think that this incident is the rare exception rather than the rule.

[cooler]

Sure, you can shout and you can argue and act like McEnroe. But remember, McEnroe never threw a racket at anyone.

You are wrong, again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJi_oc7t10
Same situation as LD, bad call on match deciding point.
john threw his racket at the Umpire's direction, plus swearing at umpire.
Same situation as LD, John finishes the match but lost.

LD threw his racket toward an empty area of korea's side, no swearing, no actions toward umpire or line judges.

[nibaxiang]

If we are just talk in the context of badminton popularity, LD's racket throwing isn't gonna do any damage as most of u keep harping about (maybe even an opposite effect as it sure wipe out our 'sissy' sport image). More serious altercation like fights and rumbles in ice hockey, basketball, and head slamming assault in soccer sure didn't hurt one bit to those sports.

What hurts badminton IMO is poor/inconsistent officiating/line judging, and cheating of prize distribution. This is why badminton isnt popular yet, BWF is dragging its feet on this issue.

So please stop keep whining about LD's action is gonna hurt badminton. Give me some proofs. TH's past actions surely didn't hurt badminton, TH actually have more fans because of his bad boy image. Loud mouth john mckenroe (tennis) and loose mouth don cherry (hockey) actually promoted their respective sport.


I think the title of this thread jumps the gun and implies that only one person is the guilty party and is awaiting sentence. This is a more complex problem than meets the eye. Maybe, a better name would be "Your views on the Korean Open Scuffles", which I believe is more in tune with the majority of the views since posted.

Agree with you both. Thumbs up for your thoughts on the issue. In the forum, much needed are contributors with clear thinking, not just followers (already too many. No offence.) :)

[ye333]

I agree LD's behavior will not hurt badminton. I have argued similarly for TH walking out before. Personal behaviors, no matter how bad, cannot hurt a sport. What hurts a sport are "group behaviors", for example notorious line judges, frequent walkovers, massive match fixing.

But this doesn't mean LD (or TH) should not be punished. Also you can view it this way: LD threw his racket -> badminton receives some attention; BWF punishes LD -> the punishment will make news again and badminton receives once more some attention. :D

Just curious, if it was TH (or some less-sensitive example, let's say Shoji Sato) who threw the racket, what kind of punishment would you suggest? ;)


If we are just talk in the context of badminton popularity, LD's racket throwing isn't gonna do any damage as most of u keep harping about (maybe even an opposite effect as it sure wipe out our 'sissy' sport image). More serious altercation like fights and rumbles in ice hockey, basketball, and head slamming assault in soccer sure didn't hurt one bit to those sports.

What hurts badminton IMO is poor/inconsistent officiating/line judging, and cheating of prize distribution. This is why badminton isnt popular yet, BWF is dragging its feet on this issue.

So please stop keep whining about LD's action is gonna hurt badminton. Give me some proofs. TH's past actions surely didn't hurt badminton, TH actually have more fans because of his bad boy image. Loud mouth john mckenroe (tennis) and loose mouth don cherry (hockey) actually promoted their respective sport.

[cooler]

Just curious, if it was TH (or some less-sensitive example, let's say Shoji Sato) who threw the racket, what kind of punishment would you suggest? ;)
i think some of u r dreaming up too many 'what if' scenarios' (ex. what if LD racket hit someone, what if LD racket killed someone, etc) when the current facts are still cloudy. Why do u wanna know my opinion on a 'what if TH or Sato' case when u prolly don't like my opinion of LD's case? (just a a guess):p lol

[ye333]

If anyone "dreamed up", not me. I believe I happen to be the one talking about more facts than anyone else. :cool: And I never said things like "what if LD racket hit someone, what if LD racket killed someone". ;)

"The current facts" are not totally clear yet but definitely much better than "cloudy". I think except for "whether LM said anything before LD threw the racket" -- even for this one we already have a good estimate of the length of the time interval that can be used to say anything (and mind you LM himself in his online chat mentioned that too), we basically have all the facts to draw a reasonable conclusion.

I wanna know because I believe you are biased on this issue. Your position is to "defend LD" instead of "finding out the facts and judge objectively". I want confirmation. Furthermore, although I don't like your opinion, I will respect your opinion if I am convinced that it is not biased.

It's OK you refuse to answer. I will not ask again.


i think some of u r dreaming up too many 'what if' scenarios' (ex. what if LD racket hit someone, what if LD racket killed someone, etc) when the current facts are still cloudy. Why do u wanna know my opinion on a 'what if TH or Sato' case when u prolly don't like my opinion of LD's case? (just a a guess):p lol

[cooler]

If anyone "dreamed up", not me. I believe I happen to be the one talking about more facts than anyone else. :cool: And I never said things like "what if LD racket hit someone, what if LD racket killed someone". ;)

"The current facts" are not totally clear yet but definitely much better than "cloudy". I think except for "whether LM said anything before LD threw the racket" -- even for this one we already have a good estimate of the length of the time interval that can be used to say anything (and mind you LM himself in his online chat mentioned that too), we basically have all the facts to draw a reasonable conclusion.

I wanna know because I believe you are biased on this issue. Your position is to "defend LD" instead of "finding out the facts and judge objectively". I want confirmation. Furthermore, although I don't like your opinion, I will respect your opinion if I am convinced that it is not biased.

It's OK you refuse to answer. I will not ask again.I did not said u r the one who said those extreme 'what if's', i said some of u.
i think it's unfair to call me biased since i haven't disclosed my position. So far, all i have posted are balancing views on anti-LD postings which mines were base on known facts**. I can't help it if my vision is wide and your is tunnel vision.

** in case i've forgot the exact words on some of my past postings, I believed they were of neutral opinion ( i mean on this topic as i have given opinions before on other topics)

[Wong8Egg]

Despite everything, I think it is entertaining. (yes, I am that shallow.)

And though many will disagree, I don't think it hurts the image of badminton at all.

I somehow agree, but maybe not entertaining but attention to the sport.

Perhaps some hockey fans will start to enjoy badminton now too. :D

[LazyBuddy]

I wanna know because I believe you are biased on this issue. Your position is to "defend LD" instead of "finding out the facts and judge objectively". I want confirmation. Furthermore, although I don't like your opinion, I will respect your opinion if I am convinced that it is not biased.



I don't agree you judgement toward cooler.

Once 2 opposite sides discuss about a person, surely 1 side is on the more "defend" side, while the other is more on the "attack" (maybe the word is too strong) side.

To the 30%+ ppl who want harsh punishment, ppl who vote for "no penalty" is obviously "biased". However, to the other close to 30% ppl who are on the opposite side, don't think you they have the right to say ppl who ever saying "LD's action is bad for the sport", or "ban LD for OG" is totally biased as well?

Like I posted earlier, this poll clearly showing a great number of ppl voting with their emotion, or simply "like vs. hate". There's no way I think we can reach the final agreement regardless.

Let me bring up a "law story" again. :D Let's say you walk on the street, and see a group of kids are beating up another kid. What you 1st want to do? Try to run up, and save the kid before beating to death 1st? Or, try to ask around, gather evidence and determine whose fault 1st? To me, most ppl should "defend" the kid being beat up 1st. However, does that really mean, the kid who's down is totally innocent? Maybe he's the one start the fight, maybe he stole something got caught... So, do you regret to save the kid, and simply let the group beating him up? :rolleyes:

[ye333]

That's the problem in online discussions. Ppl split into "sides" too quickly and then it becomes a "debate" (of which the purpose is to win) instead of a "discussion" (of which the purpose is to find out the truth). :cool:


I don't agree you judgement toward cooler.

Once 2 opposite sides discuss about a person, surely 1 side is on the more "defend" side, while the other is more on the "attack" (maybe the word is too strong) side.

To the 30%+ ppl who want harsh punishment, ppl who vote for "no penalty" is obviously "biased". However, to the other close to 30% ppl who are on the opposite side, don't think you they have the right to say ppl who ever saying "LD's action is bad for the sport", or "ban LD for OG" is totally biased as well?

Like I posted earlier, this poll clearly showing a great number of ppl voting with their emotion, or simply "like vs. hate". There's no way I think we can reach the final agreement regardless.

Let me bring up a "law story" again. :D Let's say you walk on the street, and see a group of kids are beating up another kid. What you 1st want to do? Try to run up, and save the kid before beating to death 1st? Or, try to ask around, gather evidence and determine whose fault 1st? To me, most ppl should "defend" the kid being beat up 1st. However, does that really mean, the kid who's down is totally innocent? Maybe he's the one start the fight, maybe he stole something got caught... So, do you regret to save the kid, and simply let the group beating him up? :rolleyes:

[X Ball]

You are wrong, again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJi_oc7t10
Same situation as LD, bad call on match deciding point.
john threw his racket at the Umpire's direction, plus swearing at umpire.
Same situation as LD, John finishes the match but lost.

LD threw his racket toward an empty area of korea's side, no swearing, no actions toward umpire or line judges.

You are trying to justify for a player who has commited an aggressive act towards another person. You are making it look like it is acceptable to threaten another person (LD wanting to bash LM was clearly seen by all who watched the game).

You are condoning the action of LD because I, believe, you think you are can argue this case on his behalf (maybe because you feel patriotic to the chinese cause or you feel that it makes sense,in which case it shows your poor ethos).

Whatever it maybe, let me say you have stooped too low and I have no further desire to answer any of your comments. To exchange further with a (OFFENSIVE WORD - DELETED) like you does not give me any pleasure.

[Loh]

I agree.

Many CHN pro athlete enter the training centers when they were only 5, 6 yrs old. Everyday, the only person they need to deal with is teammates and coaches. Therefore, even though they are 20+ now days, many of them are quite childish. Partly because they are lacking of the social experience, and don't know (or don't care) how to properly behave. Partly because the good performers are spoiled, as many coaches rate the kids with only 1 standard - whether they are a good player, and totally ignore the human development process.

A very interesting point you've brought out!

Which leaves one to ponder whether the Chinese-type of recruitment and training from a tender age, without the attention and support of parents, can really produce a well-rounded type of champion.

I wonder whether China has changed its system of physically uprooting the children from their parents and submitting them to intensive training, almost military-like, from young. What about the children's mental, social and academic development? I certainly hope the system has changed for the better. :rolleyes:

[hcyong]

Once 2 opposite sides discuss about a person, surely 1 side is on the more "defend" side, while the other is more on the "attack" (maybe the word is too strong) side.

Let me bring up a "law story" again. :D Let's say you walk on the street, and see a group of kids are beating up another kid. What you 1st want to do? Try to run up, and save the kid before beating to death 1st? Or, try to ask around, gather evidence and determine whose fault 1st? To me, most ppl should "defend" the kid being beat up 1st. However, does that really mean, the kid who's down is totally innocent? Maybe he's the one start the fight, maybe he stole something got caught... So, do you regret to save the kid, and simply let the group beating him up? :rolleyes:

There is a third side. The objective side.

If I have the ability, I will save that kid first and ask questions later. Whether innocent or guilty, and no matter what crime the kid did, beating him up will only create more problems (and also not right).

[hcyong]

Well actually we have something as follows in the Laws Of Badminton:

Law 3.5 During the match, the following situations shall be watched for and dealt with as detailed.

3.5.1 A player throwing a racket into the opponent's court or sliding under the net (and who also thereby obstructs or distracts an opponent), shall be faulted under Law 13.4.2 or 13.4.3 respectively.

13 FAULTS

It shall be a 'fault', if, in play, a player:

13.4.2 invades an opponent's court over the net with racket ...
13.4.3 invades an opponent's court under the net with racket ...

But no mention about punishment for LD's type of racket throwing and shouting conduct which is more severe, I believe. In a sense, BWF has great leeway on how LD should be punished! :eek:

Loh, you got it totally wrong. This 'fault' here is like service fault, a fault where you lose the rally, not where the umpire shows you the yellow card.

[cooler]

You are trying to justify for a player who has commited an aggressive act towards another person. You are making it look like it is acceptable to threaten another person (LD wanting to bash LM was clearly seen by all who watched the game).

You are condoning the action of LD because I, believe, you think you are can argue this case on his behalf (maybe because you feel patriotic to the chinese cause or you feel that it makes sense,in which case it shows your poor ethos).

Whatever it maybe, let me say you have stooped too low and I have no further desire to answer any of your comments. To exchange further with a (OFFENSIVE WORD - DELETED) like you does not give me any pleasure.
I love it when u show us your true color.
I don't need to resort to name calling, my comments are strong enough to stand on its own.

[hcyong]

I agree.

Many CHN pro athlete enter the training centers when they were only 5, 6 yrs old. Everyday, the only person they need to deal with is teammates and coaches. Therefore, even though they are 20+ now days, many of them are quite childish. Partly because they are lacking of the social experience, and don't know (or don't care) how to properly behave. Partly because the good performers are spoiled, as many coaches rate the kids with only 1 standard - whether they are a good player, and totally ignore the human development process.

There are plenty (in fact, I think vast majority) of Chinese athletes who are well-adjusted. In fact, I don't think there is anything wrong with Lin Dan except for some arrogance, which is something champions occasionally get afflicted with, or something that is neccessary for one to be a champion.

[hcyong]

I love it when u show us your true color

For better or worse, X Ball has never shown any false colours.

[hcyong]

What hurts badminton IMO is poor/inconsistent officiating/line judging, and cheating of prize distribution. This is why badminton isnt popular yet, BWF is dragging its feet on this issue.


Wow, the solution to one the of biggest issues of badminton - popularity of the sport. Right in front of our eyes. Just have consistent linejudging.

How I wish it were that easy. I don't think that badminton will be popular just by cleaning up the linejudging. If it truly is the solution, BWF must indeed be blind.

What is "cheating of prize distribution"?

[cooler]

Whatever it maybe, let me say you have stooped too low and I have no further desire to answer any of your comments. To exchange further with a (OFFENSIVE WORD - DELETED) like you does not give me any pleasure.

one more thing, nothing insulting of course ..
"I hope you are true to your words"

btw, i will bookmark this post, just in case u might forget one day.

[azabaz_ipoh]

You are wrong, again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJi_oc7t10
Same situation as LD, bad call on match deciding point.
john threw his racket at the Umpire's direction, plus swearing at umpire.
Same situation as LD, John finishes the match but lost.

LD threw his racket toward an empty area of korea's side, no swearing, no actions toward umpire or line judges.

was john penalized for the conduct? did he paid a fine or something. i don't know the answer. this is a genuine question.


You are trying to justify for a player who has commited an aggressive act towards another person. You are making it look like it is acceptable to threaten another person (LD wanting to bash LM was clearly seen by all who watched the game).

You are condoning the action of LD because I, believe, you think you are can argue this case on his behalf (maybe because you feel patriotic to the chinese cause or you feel that it makes sense,in which case it shows your poor ethos).

Whatever it maybe, let me say you have stooped too low and I have no further desire to answer any of your comments. To exchange further with a (OFFENSIVE WORD - DELETED) like you does not give me any pleasure.

please dont resort to name calling. he has the right to his own opinions as you are, and this will only lead to this thread being locked again. you dont like his opinion you can always ignore him. i hope everybody will be more calm in putting forth their arguments.


There is a third side. The objective side.

If I have the ability, I will save that kid first and ask questions later. Whether innocent or guilty, and no matter what crime the kid did, beating him up will only create more problems (and also not right).

i have to agree with you on this. :) and i will add that if the kid was in fact guilty of starting the fight or stealing then he should still be referred to the authority even though he was beaten because being beaten did not justify him getting away with his wrongdoing. :)


Wow, the solution to one the of biggest issues of badminton - popularity of the sport. Right in front of our eyes. Just have consistent linejudging.

How I wish it were that easy. I don't think that badminton will be popular just by cleaning up the linejudging. If it truly is the solution, BWF must indeed be blind.

What is "cheating of prize distribution"?

absolutely right. aggression was never the thing that made badminton attractive to its faithful players. we, in fact, always thought of it as a gentleman's sport. the violent conduct of LD might have put badminton in the news but unfortunately not in a good way. so linejudging MUST be improved in order to not let this happen again.

[hcyong]

absolutely right. aggression was never the thing that made badminton attractive to its faithful players. we, in fact, always thought of it as a gentleman's sport. the violent conduct of LD might have put badminton in the news but unfortunately not in a good way. so linejudging MUST be improved in order to not let this happen again.

Haha, you missed my sarcasm. But never mind. I agree with your statements above.

[Oldhand]

Folks, let's keep this debate civil ;)
This is our forum, not the Korea Open

[azabaz_ipoh]

Haha, you missed my sarcasm. But never mind. I agree with your statements above.

i missed them on purpose. :)


Folks, let's keep this debate civil ;)
This is our forum, not the Korea Open

the moderator has spoken.....:p;)

[Joyous]

I wonder if any of us can truly confess and say we that we have not once lost our temper, broke the traffic rules, gone against some school regulations/company's policies.
I believe Kwun meant well when he started this thread. Unfortunately, it has been reduced to this stage. I still maintain that words written and spoken in an abusive way are equally 'violent' because they hurt the human emotions and self-esteem.
I confess I am no angel and am glad that I am constantly reminded by people around me about the evil of being prejudiced & unforgiving.

Happy Chinese New Year to all who are celebrating the Lunar New Year.

[X Ball]

For better or worse, X Ball has never shown any false colours.


Terima Kasih Kawan.

[azabaz_ipoh]

cooler, i cannot find the info on the video clip you referred to. the john mcenroe clip. but i found this :

quoted from the site http://www.all-about-tennis.com/john-mcenroe.html


"Taking Time Out
By 1986, the pressures of playing at the top had become too much for John McEnroe to handle and he took a six-month break from the tour. It was during this sabbatical that he married the actress Tatum O'Neal with whom he would eventually have 3 children (Kevin, Sean, and Emily). When he returned to the tour later in the year, he won three titles. However McEnroe never seemed to be able to recapture his very best form again. In 1987, McEnroe failed to win a title for the first time since turning pro. He took a seven-month break from the game following the US Open, where he was suspended for two months and fined US$17,500 for misconduct and verbal abuse."

even mcenroe was penalized. and he is also a famous pro player. so LD should be penalized too right? :)

[hcyong]

I wonder if any of us can truly confess and say we that we have not once lost our temper, broke the traffic rules, gone against some school regulations/company's policies.
I believe Kwun meant well when he started this thread. Unfortunately, it has been reduced to this stage. I still maintain that words written and spoken in an abusive way are equally 'violent' because they hurt the human emotions and self-esteem.
I confess I am no angel and am glad that I am constantly reminded by people around me about the evil of being prejudiced & unforgiving.

Happy Chinese New Year to all who are celebrating the Lunar New Year.

No, but if I get caught and then punished accordingly, I have no right to complain. Normally, I only try to violate rules when no one or at least no authority is looking. I have never tried it while the whole world is watching, not that I have this chance.

People who are proven guilty should be punished, but after that the incident should not be brought up anymore. That is my view.

[cooler]

Folks, let's keep this debate civil ;)
This is our forum, not the Korea Openunfortunately, i have posts only pointing out facts, no name calling, deleted. U can find many posts where X ball had call people with abusive words, undeleted.

I also never go hide behind my comments with some native or foreign language here.

[Loh]

Loh, you got it totally wrong. This 'fault' here is like service fault, a fault where you lose the rally, not where the umpire shows you the yellow card.

Not really if you look at the Law which mentions "in play" ie even during a rally:

13 FAULTS

It shall be a 'fault', if, in play, a player ...

But the main point brought up by cooler was on "throwing a racket" by a player and whether the Law had something on this.

The Law based on what I have stated was only a mild breach when the shuttle is in play and the penalty is only one point lost.

But there was nothing on punishment on the kind of racket throwing by LD. :)

P.S: OK, I read you wrongly. Thought you referred to "service" only. But I did admit it is not totally relevant.

[cooler]

Not really if you look at the Law which mentions "in play" ie even during a rally:

13 FAULTS

It shall be a 'fault', if, in play, a player ...

But the main point brought up by cooler was on "throwing a racket" by a player and whether the Law had something on this.

The Law based on what I have stated was only a mild breach when the shuttle is in play and the penalty is only one point lost.

But there was nothing on punishment on the kind of racket throwing by LD. :)

P.S: OK, I read you wrongly. Thought you referred to "service" only. But I did admit it is not totally relevant.

the bylaws are kinda vague on LD(racket throwing) and LM(shoving people) behaviors. The referee has the power to disqualify LD, that is clear, and LHI could wins by default immediately but referee didn't exercise that option, maybe because of confusion or the referees thot the situation was under control. BWF involvement came to light only when Korea team launched formal complaint. I know some are opininated about LCW losing at 07 CO. If malaysian team feel bad judging was instrumental to LCW's lost, they should launch formal complaint to the BWF.

[Loh]

the bylaws are kinda vague on LD(racket throwing) and LM(shoving people) behaviors. The referee has the power to disqualify LD, that is clear, and LHI could wins by default immediately but referee didn't exercise that option, maybe because of confusion or the referees thot the situation was under control.

Please state which section of the Law provides for the Referee's disqualification option as you mentioned? :rolleyes:

[cooler]

Please state which section of the Law provides for the Referee's disqualification option as you mentioned? :rolleyes:

it was how I've interpreted it

[cooler]

On the contrary, more may be attracted to badminton. Remember what "big-mouth" McEnroe did for tennis? :D


Sure, you can shout and you can argue and act like McEnroe. But remember, McEnroe never threw a racket at anyone.


cooler, i cannot find the info on the video clip you referred to. the john mcenroe clip. but i found this :

quoted from the site http://www.all-about-tennis.com/john-mcenroe.html


"Taking Time Out
By 1986, the pressures of playing at the top had become too much for John McEnroe to handle and he took a six-month break from the tour. It was during this sabbatical that he married the actress Tatum O'Neal with whom he would eventually have 3 children (Kevin, Sean, and Emily). When he returned to the tour later in the year, he won three titles. However McEnroe never seemed to be able to recapture his very best form again. In 1987, McEnroe failed to win a title for the first time since turning pro. He took a seven-month break from the game following the US Open, where he was suspended for two months and fined US$17,500 for misconduct and verbal abuse."

even mcenroe was penalized. and he is also a famous pro player. so LD should be penalized too right? :)

My youtube link on Mcenroe was just a reply to Xball's claim that Mcenroe had never threw a racket at anyone before.

[Loh]

it was how I've interpreted it

Interesting point you brought up on Law 16.7.2.

However, I wonder what flagrant offence means?

The Oxford dictionary says "flagrant" is "conspicuous, blatant".
It goes on to say that "conspicuous" means "cleary visible, attracting notice or attention" and "blatant" means "open and unashamed".

Looks like LD's act has all the ingredients of the above.

And to further substantiate by looking at the word "offence", it means "an act or instance of offending (cause to feel hurt or resentful, break a commonly accepted rule of principle); resentment or hurt.

So LD could be disqualified on the above counts, yet the umpire was lenient not to do so.

I wonder if LD should be disqualified whether he could still receive his runner-up prize money or earn any WR points. :eek:

[cooler]

Interesting point you brought up on Law 16.7.2.

However, I wonder what flagrant offence means?

The Oxford dictionary says "flagrant" is "conspicuous, blatant".
It goes on to say that "conspicuous" means "cleary visible, attracting notice or attention" and "blatant" means "open and unashamed".

Looks like LD's act has all the ingredients of the above.
yes, LD is also guilty of pumping his fists, patting his opponent's bum with his AT700, and lifting up his shirt revealing his ripped abs to all those young boys and girls (and giggling ladies too) unbashfully:p

And to further substantiate by looking at the word "offence", it means "an act or instance of offending (cause to feel hurt or resentful, break a commonly accepted rule of principle); resentment or hurt.

So LD could be disqualified on the above counts, yet the umpire was lenient not to do so.

I wonder if LD should be disqualified whether he could still receive his runner-up prize money or earn any WR points. :eek:

now it's up to the BWF.
If BWF is gonna throw the book at LD (and LM and whoever), make sure the infraction spelled out in the book!

[Oldhand]

Whatever it maybe, let me say you have stooped too low and I have no further desire to answer any of your comments. To exchange further with a (OFFENSIVE WORD - DELETED) like you does not give me any pleasure.


one more thing, nothing insulting of course ..
"I hope you are true to your words"

btw, i will bookmark this post, just in case u might forget one day.


Folks, let's keep this debate civil ;)
This is our forum, not the Korea Open


unfortunately, i have posts only pointing out facts, no name calling, deleted. U can find many posts where X ball had call people with abusive words, undeleted.
Well, I did consider deleting quite a few posts including X Ball's unmeritorious comment... but then, I saw that you valued it enough to bookmark it :D

Well, cooler? :p

[Loh]

Well, I did consider deleting quite a few posts including X Ball's unmeritorious comment... but then, I saw that you valued it enough to bookmark it :D

Well, cooler? :p

Thank you Oldhand for your meritorious action! :)

[azabaz_ipoh]

the bylaws are kinda vague on LD(racket throwing) and LM(shoving people) behaviors. The referee has the power to disqualify LD, that is clear, and LHI could wins by default immediately but referee didn't exercise that option, maybe because of confusion or the referees thot the situation was under control. BWF involvement came to light only when Korea team launched formal complaint. I know some are opininated about LCW losing at 07 CO. If malaysian team feel bad judging was instrumental to LCW's lost, they should launch formal complaint to the BWF.

i guess the malaysian team accepted the bad calls as part of the game as it was not the first time. i agree that they should have done that, launch a formal complaint i mean. but as people have mentioned before, bad calls are harder to prove. throwing a racket and shoving other people however was witnessed by many and even caught on camera.


My youtube link on Mcenroe was just a reply to Xball's claim that Mcenroe had never threw a racket at anyone before.

ok. i accept that. but i also just wanted to point out that another player who did show violent conduct and verbal abuse was penalized. as should be for any player in any sport. :)


now it's up to the BWF.
If BWF is gonna throw the book at LD (and LM and whoever), make sure the infraction spelled out in the book!

what if the infraction was not spelled out in the book? should we just let this situation go?

[cooler]

Well, I did consider deleting quite a few posts including X Ball's unmeritorious comment... but then, I saw that you valued it enough to bookmark it :D

Well, cooler? :pI appreciate your consideration. You are excercising balanced moderation:)

Personally, i prefer openness within the bound of BC registration policy. Openness also keep records of BC violators that could earn them a warning to an outright ban, like in a dermerit point system on repeating speedster. So far only spammers earn an outright ban.

Personally, deleting posts doesn't curb violators much. It's llike cop catching a chronic speedster and taking away his car each time without any tickets or demerit points. That speedster just keep buying cheap old cars (ie, cheap shots) and keep on driving. Over time, that cop can't remember who and how many each violator had violated and to what degree. In internet, the cost of a lost post is nothing so the deterrent isn't there.

[Robbo77]

I don't think Chinese public care too much about badminton myself:confused:, after being there, I feel the average person doesn't even know who Lin Dan is! All the teenagers are only following basketball and soccer anyhow.

Who mentioned China would pull out of some tournament if LD got suspended? Its a bit like how India threatened to pull out of the cricket test series in Australia - we can't allow countries to put pressure on independent officials due to a decision they don't like.:mad:

To stop all this line call nonsense, just do what they do in tennis and stop all these McEnroe temper tantrems by using TECHNOLOGY - get rid of line umpires all together I say:D they always call my shots out too hahahaha:p

[Loh]

I don't think Chinese public care too much about badminton myself:confused:, after being there, I feel the average person doesn't even know who Lin Dan is! All the teenagers are only following basketball and soccer anyhow.

Who mentioned China would pull out of some tournament if LD got suspended? Its a bit like how India threatened to pull out of the cricket test series in Australia - we can't allow countries to put pressure on independent officials due to a decision they don't like.:mad:

To stop all this line call nonsense, just do what they do in tennis and stop all these McEnroe temper tantrems by using TECHNOLOGY - get rid of line umpires all together I say:D they always call my shots out too hahahaha:p

You must be a "very good" player like LD? :D:D:cool:

[X Ball]

Well, I did consider deleting quite a few posts including X Ball's unmeritorious comment... but then, I saw that you valued it enough to bookmark it :D

Well, cooler? :p

You have fueled his ego more -- there is no stopping him now.

[X Ball]

cooler, i cannot find the info on the video clip you referred to. the john mcenroe clip. but i found this :

quoted from the site http://www.all-about-tennis.com/john-mcenroe.html



"Taking Time Out
By 1986, the pressures of playing at the top had become too much for John McEnroe to handle and he took a six-month break from the tour. It was during this sabbatical that he married the actress Tatum O'Neal with whom he would eventually have 3 children (Kevin, Sean, and Emily). When he returned to the tour later in the year, he won three titles. However McEnroe never seemed to be able to recapture his very best form again. In 1987, McEnroe failed to win a title for the first time since turning pro. He took a seven-month break from the game following the US Open, where he was suspended for two months and fined US$17,500 for misconduct and verbal abuse."




even mcenroe was penalized. and he is also a famous pro player. so LD should be penalized too right? :)


You won't get a 'Yes' from him.;)

[eaglehelang]

My youtube link on Mcenroe was just a reply to Xball's claim that Mcenroe had never threw a racket at anyone before.

1) My question would be :
The 2 month suspension + USD$17,500 fine McEnroe got, was it for the match in the Youtube link?

2) I've seen the vid a couple of times, from the camera angle looks like McEnroe threw racket to the ground, racket bounced & slided. Then Umpire gave the pts, then the cursing from McEnroe, then umpire announced the misconduct, more cursing, game continued.
Compared to LD's angle of throw, the McEnroe one wasnt aimed at the umpire... but as with LD's case, many ppl will have different views.


and everyone else ...
http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2008/2/6/sports/20246687&sec=sports
3) This is different case, Korea female basketball player slapping opposing team player's face : got suspended for rest of season (dunno how long that is) & fine 3 million won (USD$3,184). Of course, this one the player actually hit somebody.
This basketball incident just happened on 1 Feb - so, the Korean BA might not let go of the KO incident easily.

[Dreamzz]

and everyone else ...
http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2008/2/6/sports/20246687&sec=sports
3) This is different case, Korea female basketball player slapping opposing team player's face : got suspended for rest of season (dunno how long that is) & fine 3 million won (USD$3,184). Of course, this one the player actually hit somebody.
This basketball incident just happened on 1 Feb - so, the Korean BA might not let go of the KO incident easily.

well, i think it's much easier to deal with one of your own players than with a player from a different country. i very much doubt the korean BA would be able to get away with a big fine and a suspension for the rest of the year for LD.

[eaglehelang]

well, i think it's much easier to deal with one of your own players than with a player from a different country. i very much doubt the korean BA would be able to get away with a big fine and a suspension for the rest of the year for LD.

Yeah, me knows. They might apply pressure on BWF, and all that lah.

[David Chu]

By the time I have I see 23 pages of debate on the recent Korea Open match involving Lin Dan.
My two cents worth on this issue is that so long as the BWF do not use hawk eye technology to assist in making better line calls then Badminton as a sport will always have this problem of poor line calls.
This is a "system" failure on the part of the Badminton prganisation as a whole.They consciously made the choice to use human local line judges and thus allow human error .
So punishing Lin Dan or nor isn't gonna solve the problem .
If BWF do not seek better solution I am quite sure before the end of 2008 there will be another tournament with poor line calls and more grumbling by players and Badminton fans alike.

[Oldhand]

We have a few agreed-upon facts here:
1. The line-judges goofed up more than just once (intentionally or not is another matter)
2. At least one of these goofs disadvantaged Lin Dan (critically or not is another matter)
3. It follows that Lin Dan had at least minimal cause to be angry
4. Lin Dan threw his racquet (in whose or what direction is another matter)
5. Lin Dan exchanged words with the umpire, Li Mao and Lee Hyun-Il (the quality of the exchange is another matter)
6. The incident held up play
7. Lin Dan lost the match

Rather than the question of whether Lin Dan should be punished (alone or along with the others who contributed to the fracas), I believe we need to look at what purpose such a penalty (or a lack of it) will serve.

Looking sideways, we see that tennis has survived the tantrums of McEnroe, that football has rolled on past Materazzi and Zidane, that cricket has edged above Jardine and Chappell. Why should we be any less optimistic in badminton? ;)

In this particular case, we could argue that a penalty would discourage players from holding up play, would prevent them from losing their temper, would encourage China to take revenge by planting similar line-judges or by instigating similar incidents against players from Korea, etc... or, conversely, that a waiver would encourage boorish behaviour, would set a bad example, would enrage other associations, etc.

Well, such an argument would remain inconclusive well beyond the next Korea Open.

If anything, this ugly incident has reinforced the need for clean judging :(
The lessons here are for the powers that now manage (or mismanage) the badminton show... and not for Lin Dan or Li Mao or for the line-judge who lit the fire.

To put it simply, Lin Dan has already paid the penalty.
After a oh-so-easy first game, he lost the match, didn't he? :rolleyes:

[wilfredlgf]

So punishing Lin Dan or nor isn't gonna solve the problem .
Neither should he be let off with nothing because that behaviour is not condoned either.

[cooler]

1) My question would be :
The 2 month suspension + USD$17,500 fine McEnroe got, was it for the match in the Youtube link?
cooler is not a tennis fan so he doesn't keep track all of Mcenroe's tantrums as they are too numerous to list or for a non-tennis fan to remember. Therefore, i can not verfiy a specific penalty to a specific tantrum of his.

Also, i did not go into specific of discussing mcenroe's fine and how it should relate to LD because it is beyond the topic of this thread. Plus, I don't want to give the pleasure to certain individuals here seeing my way of evaluating the penalties since it would only disgust them even more and i don't want to be the one accuse of flaming those easily combustible individuals. It would save mods the headaches as well

2) I've seen the vid a couple of times, from the camera angle looks like McEnroe threw racket to the ground, racket bounced & slided. Then Umpire gave the pts, then the cursing from McEnroe, then umpire announced the misconduct, more cursing, game continued.
Compared to LD's angle of throw, the McEnroe one wasnt aimed at the umpire... but as with LD's case, many ppl will have different views.

i see how u try to dampen his (mcenroe) actions by using the term 'cursing' instead of swearing or using profanity, and not mention it was directed at the umpire. In my scientific opinion and mathematically speaking, angle of racket thrown is proportional to the degree of side one want to support in this debate. :rolleyes:

and everyone else ...
http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2008/2/6/sports/20246687&sec=sports
3) This is different case, Korea female basketball player slapping opposing team player's face : got suspended for rest of season (dunno how long that is) & fine 3 million won (USD$3,184). Of course, this one the player actually hit somebody.
This basketball incident just happened on 1 Feb - so, the Korean BA might not let go of the KO incident easily.

from your basketball case above, would u say that LM had exercised the most force hitting somone in the KO incident and deserve the biggest penalty?

.....................................

[cooler]

Neither should he be let off with nothing because that behaviour is not condoned either.oldhand point is, some of people here are too concentrating on the LD penalty and not about the big picture which is fixing the 'real' problem.
TH paid his due at 06 HKO, and LD likely get his too for 08 KO for making their point. I ask u, how come BAM and LCW turn the other cheeks in regard to 07 CO , and leaving their fans bitching it over here in BF? Could it be BAM feels it was just questionable or close calls instead of definitive bad calls at 07 CO? i don't know, just a possibility and not an assertion

[cooler]

David chu point was, some of people here are too concentrating on the LD penalty and not about the big picture which is fixing the 'real' problem.

I believe oldhand said something similar as well

[chris-ccc]

.
IMHO, you people have missed the main facts in this debate. :):):)

The fact that linespersons made many bad calls... so they should be sacked/replaced.

The fact that LD became violent... so LD should be punished.

The fact that LM became annoyed and reacted badly... so LM should also be punished.

The fact that LCW and BAM did not want to complain after the match... it was because they thought that to be annoyed and/or to be complaining later would not correct a situation. It's like "Why cry over spilled milk?". If they had wanted to complain, they should have done so while the match was in progress. Otherwise, complaining after the event would be just "silly".

Yes, perhaps some BCers might come in here to tell me..."But fighting for one's principles is the correct thing to do". :p:p:p

But let me put it this way... "Sometimes spending $1000 to fight in a legal battle over a $100 dispute is silly". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just my 2 cents thrown in here.

:):):)
.

[stork]

.
The fact that LM became annoyed and reacted badly... so LM should also be punished.
.

1. don´t think Li Mao did anything wrong
2. where are the chinese coaches in your "facts"?
3. in some posts Lin Dan looks like a victim to me
4. very, very strange...

[Wong8Egg]

We have a few agreed-upon facts here:
1. The line-judges goofed up more than just once (intentionally or not is another matter)
2. At least one of these goofs disadvantaged Lin Dan (critically or not is another matter)
3. It follows that Lin Dan had at least minimal cause to be angry
4. Lin Dan threw his racquet (in whose or what direction is another matter)
5. Lin Dan exchanged words with the umpire, Li Mao and Lee Hyun-Il (the quality of the exchange is another matter)
6. The incident held up play
7. Lin Dan lost the match

Rather than the question of whether Lin Dan should be punished (alone or along with the others who contributed to the fracas), I believe we need to look at what purpose such a penalty (or a lack of it) will serve.

Looking sideways, we see that tennis has survived the tantrums of McEnroe, that football has rolled on past Materazzi and Zidane, that cricket has edged above Jardine and Chappell. Why should we be any less optimistic in badminton? ;)

In this particular case, we could argue that a penalty would discourage players from holding up play, would prevent them from losing their temper, would encourage China to take revenge by planting similar line-judges or by instigating similar incidents against players from Korea, etc... or, conversely, that a waiver would encourage boorish behaviour, would set a bad example, would enrage other associations, etc.

Well, such an argument would remain inconclusive well beyond the next Korea Open.

If anything, this ugly incident has reinforced the need for clean judging :(
The lessons here are for the powers that now manage (or mismanage) the badminton show... and not for Lin Dan or Li Mao or for the line-judge who lit the fire.

To put it simply, Lin Dan has already paid the penalty.
After a oh-so-easy first game, he lost the match, didn't he? :rolleyes:

+1........................................

[nibaxiang]

Seems things are getting more interesting in a way that Korean players may have to play against themselves in future KO. Then, KO will be the only SS tournament without any top 5 (or even 10) ranked man's singles players from other countries.

Is that everybody wants? :)

[cooler]

.
IMHO, you people have missed the main facts in this debate. :):):)

The fact that linespersons made many bad calls... so they should be sacked/replaced.

The fact that LD became violent... so LD should be punished.

The fact that LM became annoyed and reacted badly... so LM should also be punished.

The fact that LCW and BAM did not want to complain after the match... it was because they thought that to be annoyed and/or to be complaining later would not correct a situation. It's like "Why cry over spilled milk?". If they had wanted to complain, they should have done so while the match was in progress. Otherwise, complaining after the event would be just "silly".

Yes, perhaps some BCers might come in here to tell me..."But fighting for one's principles is the correct thing to do". :p:p:p

But let me put it this way... "Sometimes spending $1000 to fight in a legal battle over a $100 dispute is silly". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just my 2 cents thrown in here.

:):):)
.

I'm confused, is your principal worth fighting for or not?

[vching]

its the first day of Chinese New Year today.... Gong Xi Fa Cai to everyone...

why don't we take a day off from fighting :)

[eaglehelang]

.....................................

Firstly, and happy CNY to you too VChing.

i see how u try to dampen his (mcenroe) actions by using the term 'cursing' instead of swearing or using profanity, and not mention it was directed at the umpire. In my scientific opinion and mathematically speaking, angle of racket thrown is proportional to the degree of side one want to support in this debate. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your answer, I'll look it up myself :D.

LOL, cursing has same meaning as swearing, it's more commonly used, actually 'cursing' actually has a more grave meaning in Asian communities, like 'I put a curse on you, you are XXXX forever'. So, if I use 'cursing' it's more serious than 'swearing'. Msian English not so advanced as to use "using profanity" regularly, a lot of ppl on the street(no offense to any Msian) dont understand the term.

As to angle, I really didnt see it, in which of course everybody will have idfferent view. Badminton : same as earlier when only the official broadcast & Alphonse's vid were available, I thought LD threw it in the air & it landed in front of net on the other side. I would have said the same if happened to Taufik or LCW. And I'm not LD, Taufik, LCW, China or Indonesia fan.

from your basketball case above, would u say that LM had exercised the most force hitting somone in the KO incident and deserve the biggest penalty?

Sorry I didnt state it clearly.
Since the article ended by saying it's the basketball incident is most downloaded vid in Korea, emotions run high, could mean Korea BA may keep pressuring BWF for on harsh penalty on LD.
It's a possibility only but has happened bf. Ppl get angry, then 2X angry with the next incident, then triple angry... Of course, China BA will have their counter-arguements.

As to both the coaches, the badminton laws are even more vague, this could get messy. Cos both LM & China coach shoved each other (or hit as you say), all should get their penalty.
I havent found any comparision with other sports with coaches going at each other.

[eaglehelang]

In this particular case, we could argue that a penalty ..............or, conversely, that a waiver would encourage boorish behaviour, would set a bad example, would enrage other associations, etc.

If anything, this ugly incident has reinforced the need for clean judging :(
The lessons here are for the powers that now manage (or mismanage) the badminton show... and not for Lin Dan or Li Mao or for the line-judge who lit the fire.

To put it simply, Lin Dan has already paid the penalty.
After a oh-so-easy first game, he lost the match, didn't he? :rolleyes:

He he, Oldhand, you know very well in reality, BWF will have to dish out some form of penalty/sanction to all parties concerned, if not it would really "enrage other accociations", as taufik was penalised for walking out of HK 2006.

And yes, using technology would be very good.

[eaglehelang]

My two cents worth on this issue is that so long as the BWF do not use hawk eye technology to assist in making better line calls then Badminton as a sport will always have this problem of poor line calls.
This is a "system" failure on the part of the Badminton prganisation as a whole.They consciously made the choice to use human local line judges and thus allow human error .
So punishing Lin Dan or nor isn't gonna solve the problem .


Yup, agree,many ppl already said that in the many threads about this incident, just this thread talk about the punishment part.

[Oldhand]

Be it governments, the police, teachers, fire-officers or sports managers, it's only normal to revamp a set order when it creates flash-points :)

Rather than elaborate, allow me to put it like this:
In any scenario, if a fight breaks out periodically, those in authority usually address the underlying cause(s)... that's how you prevent re-occurence :cool:

In this case, those managing badminton are free to dish out whatever punishment they want... spank Lin Dan with a Yonex AT-700, banish him to Isla Sorna, put him in a padded cell with Li Mao and that line-judge, exile him to a racket throwing range, whatever... but will that prevent another player from blowing a fuse when a line-judge shows how fragile the judging system is? :o

Let's get real ;)
Beg borrow or steal... find the money for a reliable system!

[nibaxiang]

Rather than elaborate, allow me to put it like this:
In any scenario, if a fight breaks out periodically, those in authority usually address the underlying cause(s)... that's how you prevent re-occurence :cool:



That's many of us (I can name a few) always emphsized in our previous posts. Then, we got labelled / named-called as such & such. As a mod, you seems to be one of the lucky ones. :)

[Noridayu]

Dear Bc members,

After I read many comments on the forum, I would like to share my views with the rest of the members. A bad line call is not a new issue to the world of badminton. It has happened in many tournaments especially Super Series. It is difficult to challenge the linesman's decision as umpire will followed the linesman decision.I would like to suggest to WBF to have a system that can replay the incident after the protest was made during the match so that every party will be pleased with the decision.
If the BWF did not do anything to curb the incident,more and more players will lose their cool and started to be violent in court and it will not benefit badminton in the long run to be the best world sport.It is wrong to show bad behaviour in court. As for Lin Dan cases, BWF has to investigate before taking any actions in order to give fair trial for both parties that are involved in the incident.
BWF also needs to be firm in their decisions so that this incident will not happened again.As a Malaysian fans,LCW also faced the same situation liked Lin Dan during his final match of the SS last year but he protested to the umpire but his protested was turned down by the umpire. During the television replay, the shuttlecock is out but it was declared in.LCW kept on his composure and continue to play.As he said,"It is no use to keep on protesting as it will not be on his side,". Even the local Malaysia broadcaster has said,"If this shuttlecock is going to be in, LCW can just walked out of the court,".Thus it showed that the linesman are the most important person to make the correct decision without biased.It will effect the focus of the players.
Players also needs to show their true sportmanship in the court.I hope that this incident will not happened in Thomas Cup and OG this year.
Thank You.
From:
Ayu

[taufik-ist]

Dear Bc members,

After I read many comments on the forum, I would like to share my views with the rest of the members. A bad line call is not a new issue to the world of badminton. It has happened in many tournaments especially Super Series. It is difficult to challenge the linesman's decision as umpire will followed the linesman decision.I would like to suggest to WBF to have a system that can replay the incident after the protest was made during the match so that every party will be pleased with the decision.
If the BWF did not do anything to curb the incident,more and more players will lose their cool and started to be violent in court and it will not benefit badminton in the long run to be the best world sport.It is wrong to show bad behaviour in court. As for Lin Dan cases, BWF has to investigate before taking any actions in order to give fair trial for both parties that are involved in the incident.
BWF also needs to be firm in their decisions so that this incident will not happened again.As a Malaysian fans,LCW also faced the same situation liked Lin Dan during his final match of the SS last year but he protested to the umpire but his protested was turned down by the umpire. During the television replay, the shuttlecock is out but it was declared in.LCW kept on his composure and continue to play.As he said,"It is no use to keep on protesting as it will not be on his side,". Even the local Malaysia broadcaster has said,"If this shuttlecock is going to be in, LCW can just walked out of the court,".Thus it showed that the linesman are the most important person to make the correct decision without biased.It will effect the focus of the players.
Players also needs to show their true sportmanship in the court.I hope that this incident will not happened in Thomas Cup and OG this year.
Thank You.
From:
Ayu

dear ayu

don't worry THOMS/Uber cup 2008 in jakarta will be fair

i will be there by myself to 'supervise' the linesmen :D... if there's a bad call that a lineman does on porpose.. i will punch his nose :D :D :D

from taufik-ist

[ma-fung]

dear ayu

don't worry THOMS/Uber cup 2008 in jakarta will be fair

i will be there by myself to 'supervise' the linesmen :D... if there's a bad call that a lineman does on porpose.. i will punch his nose :D :D :D

from taufik-ist
Dont be too sure,some controversial calls happened at previous INA opens

[cooler]

dear ayu

don't worry THOMS/Uber cup 2008 in jakarta will be fair

i will be there by myself to 'supervise' the linesmen :D... if there's a bad call that a lineman does on porpose.. i will punch his nose :D :D :D

from taufik-istWOW, such violent but a small violent to prevent more violent is a good thing:D:)

[Winston_T]

Yup......bad calls happen everywhere...so move on ppl.

when the victim was not LD or any other CHN's players, it's ok.:cool:

[Turbo]

i was even surprissed LD still finished the match without walking out

its more sidssapionting for a player to walk out since people at least paid for the match

[Winston_T]

Yup......bad calls happen everywhere...so move on ppl.


when the victim was not LD or any other CHN's players, it's ok.:cool:

edit:
as long as the bad calls against LD or any other CHN's palyers, it's ok. move on ppl.:cool::cool::cool:

[Krisna]

Yup......bad calls happen everywhere...so move on ppl.

:D This particular call in Korean Open 2008 was VERY bad, though. The video clip clearly showed that it was around 20 cm outside the line... :p Oh, well... if not so, then it would not be the Korean Open, right? :p

[Noridayu]

dear ayu

don't worry THOMS/Uber cup 2008 in jakarta will be fair

i will be there by myself to 'supervise' the linesmen :D... if there's a bad call that a lineman does on porpose.. i will punch his nose :D :D :D

from taufik-ist

Dear Taufik,

I hope that this issue will not happened in every tournament so that we can see the best actions from the players.

From:
Ayu

[hcyong]

Be it governments, the police, teachers, fire-officers or sports managers, it's only normal to revamp a set order when it creates flash-points :)

Rather than elaborate, allow me to put it like this:
In any scenario, if a fight breaks out periodically, those in authority usually address the underlying cause(s)... that's how you prevent re-occurence :cool:

In this case, those managing badminton are free to dish out whatever punishment they want... spank Lin Dan with a Yonex AT-700, banish him to Isla Sorna, put him in a padded cell with Li Mao and that line-judge, exile him to a racket throwing range, whatever... but will that prevent another player from blowing a fuse when a line-judge shows how fragile the judging system is? :o

Let's get real ;)
Beg borrow or steal... find the money for a reliable system!

Definitely. No one wants this linejudging farce to continue. If a thread is created for it, I think we will be equally passionate about it, arguing/discussing this and that.

But the title of this thread is "Penalty for Lin Dan". There are multiple issues involved in this incident. We BCers and BWF can handle multiple issues simultaneously. At least give us this credit.

[hcyong]

I'm confused, is your principal worth fighting for or not?

Not my principal. He gave a tight slap once.

[pjswift]

We have a few agreed-upon facts here:
1. The line-judges goofed up more than just once (intentionally or not is another matter)
2. At least one of these goofs disadvantaged Lin Dan (critically or not is another matter)
3. It follows that Lin Dan had at least minimal cause to be angry
4. Lin Dan threw his racquet (in whose or what direction is another matter)
5. Lin Dan exchanged words with the umpire, Li Mao and Lee Hyun-Il (the quality of the exchange is another matter)
6. The incident held up play
7. Lin Dan lost the match

Rather than the question of whether Lin Dan should be punished (alone or along with the others who contributed to the fracas), I believe we need to look at what purpose such a penalty (or a lack of it) will serve.

Looking sideways, we see that tennis has survived the tantrums of McEnroe, that football has rolled on past Materazzi and Zidane, that cricket has edged above Jardine and Chappell. Why should we be any less optimistic in badminton? ;)

In this particular case, we could argue that a penalty would discourage players from holding up play, would prevent them from losing their temper, would encourage China to take revenge by planting similar line-judges or by instigating similar incidents against players from Korea, etc... or, conversely, that a waiver would encourage boorish behaviour, would set a bad example, would enrage other associations, etc.

Well, such an argument would remain inconclusive well beyond the next Korea Open.

If anything, this ugly incident has reinforced the need for clean judging :(
The lessons here are for the powers that now manage (or mismanage) the badminton show... and not for Lin Dan or Li Mao or for the line-judge who lit the fire.

To put it simply, Lin Dan has already paid the penalty.
After a oh-so-easy first game, he lost the match, didn't he? :rolleyes:
Here's another view:
1. There's only one rogue line judge who made 4 calls in G3,all overruled by umpire. 3 were blatantly bad calls;1 was however, a good call wrongly overruled by umpire.(Note Louisa's sharp note of it in Finals thread)
2.The controversial call was a close call ,not a blatantly bad call.It disadvantaged LD because mentally,he was exhausted while his opponent was holding his own.
3. LD will always have minimal cause to be angry if an umpire does not follow his cue.
4. It turned ugly because LD thought umpire was supposed to be on his side.He lost focus and his attention strayed to the most likely scapegoat of his woes.
5. How has LD paid for his penalty already? BY losing his match just because of a seemingly easy G1? What did a 21-4 score mean? It could mean:
5.1 LHI couldn't get started because LD started out too fast.
5.2 LHI decided beforehand he can only win in 3 so he gotta let G1 go fast to conserve energy.
5.3 Having made that choice,he used G1 as an opportunity to update him on LD's repertoire (They haven't met for a while)
5.4 It just turned out that way!
6. LD had 4 match points, yet he couldn't close.The 4th match point at 23-22
featured probably the best rally of the match. LD had the upper hand , with at least 3 supreme chances to win it, yet LHI managed to return 'unreturnable' shots superbly,forcing LD into an error.That rally proved LHI's edge over LD.
I'm sorry this is partially off-topic but have to respond because you're giving LD too much credit.
Give credit where credit's due.
LHI won KO simply because he managed to skillfully and mentally outfoxed LD.(Against all odds, including the unusual one of LD having the umpire on his side 80% of the time!)
btw,for those in Spore who are interested , ch 22 will be repeating the KO MSF on Tue 8-9pm.

[ianmercer89]

anyone no if and when the decision will be made on wha lin dans punishment will be? I'm hoping he wont be suspended for the all england :-(.

[Oldhand]

...I'm sorry this is partially off-topic but have to respond because you're giving LD too much credit.
Give credit where credit's due.
I don't see that I've given Lin Dan any credit, let alone "too much" of it :confused:

The point I've been drumming is:
Imposing a penalty or waiving a penalty isn't going to solve the underlying issue, which is: error-prone line-judging (deliberate or otherwise) :)

I greatly fear that a penalty (and the fresh debate that will follow) will absolutely mask the critical line-judging issue. This thread in itself is a clear sign of what's in store... just the question of whether to penalise has already blurred the underlying issue :rolleyes:

[ctjcad]

Here's another view:
1. There's only one rogue line judge who made 4 calls in G3,all overruled by umpire. 3 were blatantly bad calls;1 was however, a good call wrongly overruled by umpire.(Note Louisa's sharp note of it in Finals thread)
...
LHI won KO simply because he managed to skillfully and mentally outfoxed LD.(Against all odds, including the unusual one of LD having the umpire on his side 80% of the time!)
...
..did all (4) over-ruled calls happen in the 3rd Game/set??..I thought, from what i saw, it started in the 2nd Game/set??..In total, as i recall, there were 3 correctly over-ruled line calls, 1 net fault call and of course, the now infamous & controversial last line call that was upheld & incorrectly called..
..the over-ruled calls "seemed to be favoring" LD 80% of the time, but all of them were correctly over-ruled..It'll probably feel 240% worse if those calls weren't over-ruled..:cool:

[cooler]

Give credit where credit's due.
LHI won KO simply because he managed to skillfully and mentally outfoxed LD.(Against all odds, including the unusual one of LD having the umpire on his side 80% of the time!)
btw,for those in Spore who are interested , ch 22 will be repeating the KO MSF on Tue 8-9pm.
That give me a good laugh.
As i have said earlier, it was the rogue linejudge who had beaten LD, not LHI.
So if umpire overruling bad calls is considered on LD's side, so not overruling 99% of other line calls should be considered on LHI's side? LOL Man Lin Dan was disadvantaged 99% of the time LOL Hey, it's based on your 'sound' reasoning LOL:rolleyes:

Lets me dissect what skill LHI had use to gain points on LD after the last bad call because there are too many statements made on this issue base on guesses and emotions, not facts.

at 21-21, lets look at how LD lost his points:

-LHI smash down the line and was out by ~2cm but called in - an unforced error by LD (ie, it would be a forced error if LD made a dive save and was unsuccessful)
-LHI do a regular net shot(not really that tight at all) and LD lift and hit the net not under pressure - an unforced error by LD
- long rally with LHI and LD cleared out while not under pressure - an unforced error by LD
- LHI lifted a not very deep shot to LD's backhand cornet, LD do his usual jumpsmash and hit into the net - an unforced error by LD

So, after the squabble, LD lost all his points by his own accord, NOT BY LHI EXECUTING SKILLFULLY DECISIVE WINNING SHOTS. Saying LHI skillfully and mentally beat LD is crap, the linejudge did that. LHI only need to stay calm (which is easy since LHI wasn't involved in the squabble) and keep the rally going. No one can stay focus immediately after a squabble, especially when there are thousands spectators watching and tv camera rolling. The credit goes to the rogue linejudge, period.

[Tsumaranai]

It just seems like all this talk has led to people voting either for or against Lin Dan. As any penalty is a suggestion of opposition, then there really are no moderates, it seems.

[X Ball]

I don't see that I've given Lin Dan any credit, let alone "too much" of it :confused:

The point I've been drumming is:
Imposing a penalty or waiving a penalty isn't going to solve the underlying issue, which is: error-prone line-judging (deliberate or otherwise) :)

I greatly fear that a penalty (and the fresh debate that will follow) will absolutely mask the critical line-judging issue. This thread in itself is a clear sign of what's in store... just the question of whether to penalise has already blurred the underlying issue :rolleyes:

No it won't mask the line-judging issue -- that itself is an issue but not in this thread. That issue is well acknowledged anyway - no one is contending that better judging is not required (everyone has accepted the use of technology).

What is an issue, which is badly defended by recalcitrants here, is LD intimidating a coach of another country (he could not control his emotion and went wild) - we do not accept poor ethos in any form in sport. Please look at it in its real perspectives.

[X Ball]

........................
5. How has LD paid for his penalty already? BY losing his match just because of a seemingly easy G1? What did a 21-4 score mean? It could mean:
5.1 LHI couldn't get started because LD started out too fast.
5.2 LHI decided beforehand he can only win in 3 so he gotta let G1 go fast to conserve energy.
5.3 Having made that choice,he used G1 as an opportunity to update him on LD's repertoire (They haven't met for a while)
5.4 It just turned out that way!
6. LD had 4 match points, yet he couldn't close.The 4th match point at 23-22
featured probably the best rally of the match. LD had the upper hand , with at least 3 supreme chances to win it, yet LHI managed to return 'unreturnable' shots superbly,forcing LD into an error.That rally proved LHI's edge over LD.
I'm sorry this is partially off-topic but have to respond because you're giving LD too much credit.
Give credit where credit's due.
LHI won KO simply because he managed to skillfully and mentally outfoxed LD.(Against all odds, including the unusual one of LD having the umpire on his side 80% of the time!)
btw,for those in Spore who are interested , ch 22 will be repeating the KO MSF on Tue 8-9pm.

Too right. I thought LD had every chance to win it but he 'botched' it when he could not control LHI, whose fighting spirit and patience gave him the win. With such a win under his belt, I feel LHI will be out to show it is no fluke in the next tournament. His close encounters with LCW suggest to me that LHI will be a force to be reckoned with this year.

[hcyong]

I don't see that I've given Lin Dan any credit, let alone "too much" of it :confused:

The point I've been drumming is:
Imposing a penalty or waiving a penalty isn't going to solve the underlying issue, which is: error-prone line-judging (deliberate or otherwise) :)

I greatly fear that a penalty (and the fresh debate that will follow) will absolutely mask the critical line-judging issue. This thread in itself is a clear sign of what's in store... just the question of whether to penalise has already blurred the underlying issue :rolleyes:

Well, you could say punishing any criminal found guilty is not going to solve the underlying issue as well (morality, economic etc).

The issue of linejudging has been a regular topic in this forum. People are generally pretty upset about it. I don't think the issue of punishment for LD is blurring the linejudging issue. In fact, I think it is the other way round for some forummers here (ie. the issue of linejudging is blurring the issue of LD's behaviour).

Why does LD need some sort of punishment? It is to tell players to behave themselves. LD could erupt on matters other than linejudging. Maybe he does not like the service judge faulting him. Maybe the opponent's coach said something. There could be all sorts of underlying reasons for those as well. But nothing excuses the behaviour of LD.

If you like underlying reasons, then read this. If other players start behaving like that or LD becomes even more bold, then the underlying reason may be because LD is not punished this time.

[nibaxiang]

Is this a game of "whose post appears the last, who is the winner?"?? :)

Things about KO couldn't be a bit clear by this far. Still, endless blah blah blah on the same thing over and over again... sigh

[ctjcad]

Is this a game of "whose post appears the last, who is the winner?"?? :)

Things about KO couldn't be a bit clear by this far. Still, endless blah blah blah on the same thing over and over again... sigh
..when there are a bunch of tournament-starved BCers milling around in BC....with nothing much more to talk about....:p..
Ah, but hopefully the upcoming TC&UC Qualification tourney will take center stage and we won't be staring at the current KO sub-forum, any longer..The German, All England and Swiss Opens couldn't come any faster, could they, heh??..:p :D;)

[madbad]

Is this a game of "whose post appears the last, who is the winner?"?? :)

Things about KO couldn't be a bit clear by this far. Still, endless blah blah blah on the same thing over and over again... sigh

Hahaha, I've read most of the posts with interest and the majority with suspicion of bias but, yeah, I tend to think that whoever shouts the loudest has the last word. Mods, please put us out of our misery and close this thread. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :cool:

[cooler]

Hahaha, I've read most of the posts with interest and the majority with suspicion of bias but, yeah, I tend to think that whoever shouts the loudest has the last word. Mods, please put us out of our misery and close this thread. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :cool:
U have the option to not visit this thread:p
I'm not gonna reply to hcyong's last post not because i'm don't have good rebuttal but rather:
1. with respect i would let oldhand reply first:D since it was addressed to oldhand
2. my rebuttal would involve discussing eco-social, politiical, cultural issues, disclosing china team insider secret, risking thread closing, AND I don't want to give hcyong free education on understanding these multi-facet interconnected issues.

[ianmercer89]

so is it still doubtful lin dan will be playing the all england still? when will a decision be made or have they already decidednot to punish him?

[cooler]

so is it still doubtful lin dan will be playing the all england still? when will a decision be made or have they already decidednot to punish him?i say, this AE could be taufik's best ever chance to win his sought after title if LD is not there.

[Oldhand]

Well, you could say punishing any criminal found guilty is not going to solve the underlying issue as well (morality, economic etc).

The issue of linejudging has been a regular topic in this forum. People are generally pretty upset about it. I don't think the issue of punishment for LD is blurring the linejudging issue. In fact, I think it is the other way round for some forummers here (ie. the issue of linejudging is blurring the issue of LD's behaviour).

Why does LD need some sort of punishment? It is to tell players to behave themselves. LD could erupt on matters other than linejudging. Maybe he does not like the service judge faulting him. Maybe the opponent's coach said something. There could be all sorts of underlying reasons for those as well. But nothing excuses the behaviour of LD.

If you like underlying reasons, then read this. If other players start behaving like that or LD becomes even more bold, then the underlying reason may be because LD is not punished this time.

Well, you do make it sound as if every top-ranked player is just waiting to explode on court...
...and also that they will do so unless Lin Dan is immediately made an example of...
...well then, this year's All England should be racked by similar or worse demonstrations :(

Game rage is nothing new... and it displays itself in every sport involving intense competition. If we can't see the obvious causes beyond a player's loss of cool, then we are not looking very far, are we? :rolleyes:

As I see it, different people adhere to different social norms:
There are some that believe spectacle and punishment lead to deterrence
And there are others that believe reason and reform lead to deterrence

The Taleban is one example of the former group.
I prefer to count myself in the latter ;)