Tomboys will dominate in women badminton

[bill681231]

After a few recent SS, I have the feeling that Tomboys will dominate in women badminton.

With the dratical improvement in rackets and strings, badminton become dominent with speed and power, skill comes second, especially in women events.
Actually, it is the same situation in man's event too. BCL could have been a great player if he lived 10-20 years ago with his text-book like footwork and stroke.

It is kind of sad that we will loose the beauty of skill in every sports where only musles maters.

[ye333]

BCL is currently world No. 3 and is afraid of no one but LD. If we push back 20 years, I don't think he can beat ZJH or YY or Frost. If we push back 10 years, I doubt that he can beat Gade or Sun Jun or Hendrawan.

Personally I think he is around the same level as Luo Yigang (10 years ago) or Wu Wenkai (a bit less than 20 years ago).


After a few recent SS, I have the feeling that Tomboys will dominate in women badminton.

With the dratical improvement in rackets and strings, badminton become dominent with speed and power, skill comes second, especially in women events.
Actually, it is the same situation in man's event too. BCL could have been a great player if he lived 10-20 years ago with his text-book like footwork and stroke.

It is kind of sad that we will loose the beauty of skill in every sports where only musles maters.

[bill681231]

BCL is currently world No. 3 and is afraid of no one but LD. If we push back 20 years, I don't think he can beat ZJH or YY or Frost. If we push back 10 years, I doubt that he can beat Gade or Sun Jun or Hendrawan.

Personally I think he is around the same level as Luo Yigang (10 years ago) or Wu Wenkai (a bit less than 20 years ago).

Kinda Agreed with you.

But, seriously, badminton is not as attractive as it was before. I found myself fell in sleep recently when watching the game live.

May be it is only a side effect of getting old?:crying:

[Wong8Egg]

I think many of us has neglected one big part of today's badminton when comparing to the old days. And that's agility and physical fitness. I agree that player like ZJH, Frost, YY, Gade and Hendrawan has really really good skills but I doubt that they have the fitness and speed of LD and LCW of today.

For a better picture, I think TH is the best role figure of "skills & technique" type player of today's badminton. But it is not hard to seeing him get edged out by of the power and speed of LD and LCW slowly.

Yeah, I agree that it is not as good to watch where I always liked the beauty of TH's stroke than the raw power of LD's. But I guess that's the way badminton is transforming to and we'll have to live with it.

In conclusion, it is not tomboys that will dominate the woman's badminton, but whoever that is stronger and quicker on the court. And hopefully that person would be as pretty as CM. ;)

[jimbo]

In terms of power and speed, YES, the tomboys should dominate WD. However, they lack of height. The same goes for CHN WS, they have excellent skills but lack of power (compare to TINE). So, I'm hoping an European pair with height n power to match the tomboys :eek:

[george@chongwei]

their power of smashing is superb if compare to other contry`s womans,

[robin7]

BCL is currently world No. 3 and is afraid of no one but LD. If we push back 20 years, I don't think he can beat ZJH or YY or Frost. If we push back 10 years, I doubt that he can beat Gade or Sun Jun or Hendrawan.

Personally I think he is around the same level as Luo Yigang (10 years ago) or Wu Wenkai (a bit less than 20 years ago).
With OSS, it's very unlikely for BCL to beat the 4 Heavenly Kings 20 years ago. With NSS, BCL can match them and possibly beat them.

IMO, BCL is one level above LYG and WWK.

[jimbo]

Just curious, who is LuoYigang? I only know WuWenKai... :)

[george@chongwei]

Just curious, who is LuoYigang? I only know WuWenKai... :)
who is these 2 players i also dunno...:p:D

[pijah]

Kinda Agreed with you.

But, seriously, badminton is not as attractive as it was before. I found myself fell in sleep recently when watching the game live.

May be it is only a side effect of getting old?:crying:

No need to worry. Me too, fell asleep when watching badminton matches, more so when the players are not among my fav. :p;):rolleyes:

[ye333]

In 2004 a already slowed-down PG (at age 27-28) could still match LD -- although LD won their encounters, but if you just randomly watch some points without knowing the score, you could not tell who is the final winner. Even in 2006, when PG was too old to match LD anymore, he still beated LCW convincingly in Thomas cup. I don't think the lightning-fast PG in 1999 will have much difficulty dealing with LD or LCW's speed.

As for ZJH, watch his 1985 AE final with Morten Frost, and see how agile he could be!

TH got edged out not because LD in 2007 is faster than LD in 2004, but because TH in 2007 is so much slower (and weaker) than TH in 2004.

Another good example is CH. Just watch any match of LD vs. CH. They are pretty evenly matched.


I think many of us has neglected one big part of today's badminton when comparing to the old days. And that's agility and physical fitness. I agree that player like ZJH, Frost, YY, Gade and Hendrawan has really really good skills but I doubt that they have the fitness and speed of LD and LCW of today.

For a better picture, I think TH is the best role figure of "skills & technique" type player of today's badminton. But it is not hard to seeing him get edged out by of the power and speed of LD and LCW slowly.

Yeah, I agree that it is not as good to watch where I always liked the beauty of TH's stroke than the raw power of LD's. But I guess that's the way badminton is transforming to and we'll have to live with it.

In conclusion, it is not tomboys that will dominate the woman's badminton, but whoever that is stronger and quicker on the court. And hopefully that person would be as pretty as CM. ;)

[eaglehelang]

TH got edged out not because LD in 2007 is faster than LD in 2004, but because TH in 2007 is so much slower (and weaker) than TH in 2004.

Another good example is CH. Just watch any match of LD vs. CH. They are pretty evenly matched.

Off topic :
The last big tourney Taufik beat LD was Asia Games 2006. What was the factor then?

[kenny7_2006]

sheer determination.... and more will to win... which is what some Malaysian players are lacking...

[Wong8Egg]

In 2004 a already slowed-down PG (at age 27-28) could still match LD -- although LD won their encounters, but if you just randomly watch some points without knowing the score, you could not tell who is the final winner. Even in 2006, when PG was too old to match LD anymore, he still beated LCW convincingly in Thomas cup. I don't think the lightning-fast PG in 1999 will have much difficulty dealing with LD or LCW's speed.

As for ZJH, watch his 1985 AE final with Morten Frost, and see how agile he could be!

TH got edged out not because LD in 2007 is faster than LD in 2004, but because TH in 2007 is so much slower (and weaker) than TH in 2004.

Another good example is CH. Just watch any match of LD vs. CH. They are pretty evenly matched.

Ｉ am not saying that "power & agility" has absolute advantage over "skills & technique" players of the old days, but they do have that slight edge
IMO. And you pointed out yourself, although it was close but LD still has the upper hand even when he was facing the 04 PG. And PG isn't slow by any means, but just not as fast as LD and LCW and doesn't has their retrieve ability.

I don't think TH has slowed down much either, but since day 1 I think LD vs TH was on a 2:1 or 3:1 winning ratio. And look and the recent match between TH and LCW, he simply got drained out by LCW in one of the longest rally, even when Frost mentioned TH's backhand has saved him alot of energy, but we can see that fitness plays a big part in modern badminton and is one of the main key for victory.

[huangkwokhau]

Ｉ am not saying that "power & agility" has absolute advantage over "skills & technique" players of the old days, but they do have that slight edge
IMO. And you pointed out yourself, although it was close but LD still has the upper hand even when he was facing the 04 PG. And PG isn't slow by any means, but just not as fast as LD and LCW and doesn't has their retrieve ability.

I don't think TH has slowed down much either, but since day 1 I think LD vs TH was on a 2:1 or 3:1 winning ratio. And look and the recent match between TH and LCW, he simply got drained out by LCW in one of the longest rally, even when Frost mentioned TH's backhand has saved him alot of energy, but we can see that fitness plays a big part in modern badminton and is one of the main key for victory.

In NSS system, stamina/fitness does play big part beside skills....

[cooler]

doube posted.........

[cooler]

In 2004 a already slowed-down PG (at age 27-28) could still match LD -- although LD won their encounters, but if you just randomly watch some points without knowing the score, you could not tell who is the final winner. Even in 2006, when PG was too old to match LD anymore, he still beated LCW convincingly in Thomas cup. I don't think the lightning-fast PG in 1999 will have much difficulty dealing with LD or LCW's speed.

As for ZJH, watch his 1985 AE final with Morten Frost, and see how agile he could be!

TH got edged out not because LD in 2007 is faster than LD in 2004, but because TH in 2007 is so much slower (and weaker) than TH in 2004.

Another good example is CH. Just watch any match of LD vs. CH. They are pretty evenly matched. basically LD had improved in every department since his lost to TH in 2005 WC while TH, PG remain more or less the same level. I use to hear people back then saying LD only has jumpsmashing going for him since he is way subpar in quality strokes, netting, backhand clear, deception, mental strength when compared to TH, soni D, PG, CH, etc. LD might not be A+ in every of the above catergories but he sure don't have those weakness anymore. LCW is another player who has made significant improvement over the past 2-3 years.

[huangkwokhau]

Should not we talk about Women double here? why suddenly we atlk about CH, LD, and all MS here.......

[cooler]

Should not we talk about Women double here? why suddenly we atlk about CH, LD, and all MS here.......i think it got all started from post #2

[huangkwokhau]

i think it got all started from post #2
Yep..we should be on track then again......;)

[wood_22_chuck]

Unless cooler is suggesting Lin Dan is a in-the-closet tomboy or something. :D

Sorry, slow day.

-dave

[madbad]

I'm surprised that only now have the so-called Tomboys started dominating the sport. You'd think some associations might have put two and two together and figured it out earlier. If the trend of Tomboys continue, then the face of WD will change drastically. Many will be disappointed with the likes of the feminine JPN Cuties being pushed aside :D;)

[huangkwokhau]

I'm surprised that only now have the so-called Tomboys started dominating the sport. You'd think some associations might have put two and two together and figured it out earlier. If the trend of Tomboys continue, then the face of WD will change drastically. Many will be disappointed with the likes of the feminine JPN Cuties being pushed aside :D;)
Started with Vita/Lyliana last year then we have Yu yang/Du Jing ( eventhough they were not newcomer)....I thought it was a sure win for DJ/YY....after beating Zhang/Wei in one sided second set.......

[cooler]

Unless cooler is suggesting Lin Dan is a in-the-closet tomboy or something. :D

Sorry, slow day.

-daveafter reading post #2 and onward, i too got sidetracked

Maybe it is a revenge of the ninjas. It goes to show that badminton is more diverse than we think, and short players can dominate too.

[xXazn_romeoXx]

ya, i thought this thread was about tomboys as in WDs/WS...has anyone actually realized that there's not much a looker in the bunch ;) there's a few, but other than that...and i say this with love and respect =], but some INA/MAS/CHN women are like men =="...there's nothing wrong with it, but it does nothing to promote the sport like Sharapova does for tennis if you catch my drift ;)

[kwun]

i think the "tomboy" observation is a bit overly generalized.

of all the top WD players, only one pair, ONE PAIR i would considered to be tomboy, all other pairs are not. how can we generalize from one pair to the whole field. i don't understand.

and i think there is also an incorrect association between "tomboys" and strength. one of the strongest smasher in recent WD history is none but Huang Sui from China, i would not put her into the tomboy category.

similarly but in WS, the recent SS winner Tine. XXZ and other players coaches have said that she plays badminton in the style of a MS players, with heavy baseline offense. but i would not call her a tomboy either.

perhaps the original thread starter should re-examine the meaning and use of the word "tomboy" and re-examine the correctness of the claim. especially if the word "strength" and "tomboy" have been mis-correlated.

[sumbadder]

i think the "tomboy" observation is a bit overly generalized.

of all the top WD players, only one pair, ONE PAIR i would considered to be tomboy, all other pairs are not. how can we generalize from one pair to the whole field. i don't understand.

and i think there is also an incorrect association between "tomboys" and strength. one of the strongest smasher in recent WD history is none but Huang Sui from China, i would not put her into the tomboy category.

similarly but in WS, the recent SS winner Tine. XXZ and other players coaches have said that she plays badminton in the style of a MS players, with heavy baseline offense. but i would not call her a tomboy either.

perhaps the original thread starter should re-examine the meaning and use of the word "tomboy" and re-examine the correctness of the claim. especially if the word "strength" and "tomboy" have been mis-correlated.

I think the OP meant just DJ/YY when saying tomboys, not tomboys in general.

[Badmintan]

So far the archetypical tomboy today is Yip Pui Yin.

Arguably any femmes with short/bob hair style who smash hard can be considered tomboys.

[ye333]

This is from post #1:

"Actually, it is the same situation in man's event too. BCL could have been a great player if he lived 10-20 years ago with his text-book like footwork and stroke."

I will be kind and assume you didn't read post #1 carefully. :mad:


i think it got all started from post #2

[Badmintan]

[quote=ye333;814768]In 2004 a already slowed-down PG (at age 27-28) could still match LD -- although LD won their encounters, but if you just randomly watch some points without knowing the score, you could not tell who is the final winner. Even in 2006, when PG was too old to match LD anymore, he still beated LCW convincingly in Thomas cup. I don't think the lightning-fast PG in 1999 will have much difficulty dealing with LD or LCW's speed.

I think in 21-point system, the players age at the highest level is pushed higher. I don't think Jonnasen or Gade can play at the highest level if the point is 15 point system.

Age wise, a 30 yr old has more developed muscles than a 20 yr old, hence more strength all things being equal. Ever tried arm wrestling with a 30 yr guy? the 20 yr guy will lose.

It's the body's recovery from fatigue and flexibility [of joints/spine] of the 20 yr old that is better than the 30 yr old...hence better speed and less injury prone. Also badminton places a premium in this order: speed, stamina and power.

But in terms of power the older guy has the edge, but in terms of flexiblity/stamina the younger guy has the edge.

[ye333]

"TH, PG remain more or less the same level" Com'on, you don't really believe this do you? :eek: PG is obviously slower and weaker now than himself in 2004, not to say 1999.

LD's weapon is not jumpsmash. It's his ability to read opponents' shots and to suddenly inject pace. LD's skill is still below LCW and TH. But he is much more experienced now and mentally stronger.

LCW indeed improved much.


basically LD had improved in every department since his lost to TH in 2005 WC while TH, PG remain more or less the same level. I use to hear people back then saying LD only has jumpsmashing going for him since he is way subpar in quality strokes, netting, backhand clear, deception, mental strength when compared to TH, soni D, PG, CH, etc. LD might not be A+ in every of the above catergories but he sure don't have those weakness anymore. LCW is another player who has made significant improvement over the past 2-3 years.

[ye333]

Arm wresling uses totally different muscles, the so-called "slow muscles".


[quote=ye333;814768]In 2004 a already slowed-down PG (at age 27-28) could still match LD -- although LD won their encounters, but if you just randomly watch some points without knowing the score, you could not tell who is the final winner. Even in 2006, when PG was too old to match LD anymore, he still beated LCW convincingly in Thomas cup. I don't think the lightning-fast PG in 1999 will have much difficulty dealing with LD or LCW's speed.

I think in 21-point system, the players age at the highest level is pushed higher. I don't think Jonnasen or Gade can play at the highest level if the point is 15 point system.

Age wise, a 30 yr old has more developed muscles than a 20 yr old, hence more strength all things being equal. Ever tried arm wrestling with a 30 yr guy? the 20 yr guy will lose.

It's the body's recovery from fatigue and flexibility [of joints/spine] of the 20 yr old that is better than the 30 yr old...hence better speed and less injury prone. Also badminton places a premium in this order: speed, stamina and power.

But in terms of power the older guy has the edge, but in terms of flexiblity/stamina the younger guy has the edge.

[Badmintan]

Com'on, how can you guys say Peter Gade is weaker than 2004 (age27-28) than 2008 (31-32)?

Yes he is slower and more injury prone, but weaker, no way....maybe when he is 60yrs then he is weak.

[ye333]

I am not quite sure what did you mean by your first sentence...

Again, if we talk about pure strength, PG at age 32 may be even "stronger" than before. But badminton "power" is not about muscle strength (in the sense of, for example, benchpressing), otherwise FHF should have huge muscles. An analogy can be made to boxing. The power of a punch is not determined by how much weight you can lift, it's more related to how fast your fist travels.


Com'on, how can you guys say Peter Gade is weaker than 2004 (age27-28) than 2008 (31-32)?

Yes he is slower and more injury prone, but weaker, no way....maybe when he is 60yrs then he is weak.

[Badmintan]

Fair enough Ye333.

I think we will leave LD,LCW,PG topic as it is...the debate is getting off base from original tomboy topic.

Surprisingly for female players...Zhou Mi, Wang Chen,Tine Rasmussen are winning Tournaments at a later age compared to male players. They looked tomboyish if you ask me.

[huangkwokhau]

Com'on, how can you guys say Peter Gade is weaker than 2004 (age27-28) than 2008 (31-32)?

Yes he is slower and more injury prone, but weaker, no way....maybe when he is 60yrs then he is weak.
Pls..pls..stay on topic.......we do not want this thread gets closed!!:cool:

[Oldhand]

For some reason as vague as this thread's heading, very few posts in this thread have anything to do with the original topic ;)

Closed.