Hallo, badminton lovers....
This is my first post as an new member of BC, after being silent participant since All England 2007. Very interesting discussion forum, I may say, and I learn a lot.
I'll be in Beijing on August, to witness five gold medallists in badminton, and, hopefully, to see other BC-ers there.
Found this news on AFP today, wish no one post this in other thread before, or Master Kwun will be banned me, ironically, just when I start....

Happy reading...

copadh


Olympics: China admits match fixing in Olympic badminton
BEIJING, March 22, 2008 (AFP) - China’s badminton head coach has admitted ordering a player to throw a crucial tie at the 2004 Olympic Games. Coach Li Yongbo told China Central Television’s sports channel that the 2004 Athens Olympics semi-final was fixed to improve China’s chances of winning a gold medal.
Two Chinese players, Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning, were drawn together in the semi-final tie. After watching Zhang win the first game, the coaching staff decided that she would have a better shot at winning the final against a non-Chinese opponent rather than Zhou.
"After the first game, Zhang looked in better all round shape," Li was quoted as saying in a report on the interview by Sina.Com, a popular website. "So we told Zhou Mi not to work too hard and let Zhang into the final."
Li said he and the Chinese team had nothing to be ashamed of. "It shows our patriotism and in fact I am proud of it." Zhang won the gold as planned and is expected to defend her Olympic title at the Beijing Games here in August. For her part, Zhou quit the Chinese team and went to Hong Kong. She is currently hoping to qualify to represent the territory in badminton at the Beijing Olympics.
Li’s admission revived long-standing concern about behind-the-scenes arrangements at top international table tennis and badminton events by Chinese teams. The practice first surfaced in 1987, when He Zhili ignored an order to throw a semi-final to teammate Guan Jianhua at the 1987 world table tennis championships. She went on to win the final, but was left out of the 1988 Seoul Olympic team as punishment.
In badminton, suspicions are still rife about Wang Dan’s (should be Lin Dan, I suppose...-copadh) defeat to teammate Chen Jin in the recent all-England final, with some experts suggesting that Wang threw the game.
cw/cc Oly-2008-CHN-badminton AFP

i guess this confirms what most of us have suspected for quite some time.

The practice first surfaced in 1987, when He Zhili ignored an order to throw a semi-final to teammate Guan Jianhua at the 1987 world table tennis championships. She went on to win the final, but was left out of the 1988 Seoul Olympic team as punishment.

Yup, the news appeared in the South China Morning Post too, with Zhou Mi admitting to the "match fixing" thingy. Since the incident in Table Tennis was highlighted, I think it brought some response and right now, these kinda match fixing is almost eradicated from the Chinese Table Tennis Team.

Let's see if the same can be done in badminton :o:cool:

i certainly hope so. i understand why CHN does this, the main reason i'm against it is because i don't get to see the CHN players going at each other full force, which is a bit of a shame. i'm sure the matches between LD, BCL, CJ, CY and CH would have been far more exciting if they had been allowed to play naturally.

China admits match fixing in Olympic badminton


Saturday Mar 22 16:47 AEDT
China's badminton head coach has admitted ordering a player to throw a crucial tie at the 2004 Olympic Games.
Coach Li Yongbo told China Central Television's sports channel that the 2004 Athens Olympics semi-final was fixed to improve China's chances of winning a gold medal.
Two Chinese players, Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning, were drawn together in the semi-final tie.
After watching Zhang win the first game, the coaching staff decided that she would have a better shot at winning the final against a non-Chinese opponent rather than Zhou.
http://ninemsn.com.au/9msnshared/images/space.gif
"After the first game, Zhang looked in better all round shape," Li was quoted as saying in a report on the interview by Sina.Com, a popular website.
"So we told Zhou Mi not to work too hard and let Zhang into the final."
Li said he and the Chinese team had nothing to be ashamed of.
"It shows our patriotism and in fact I am proud of it."
Zhang won the gold as planned and is expected to defend her Olympic title at the Beijing Games here in August.
For her part, Zhou quit the Chinese team and went to Hong Kong. She is currently hoping to qualify to represent the territory in badminton at the Beijing Olympics.
Li's admission revived long-standing concern about behind-the-scenes arrangements at top international table tennis and badminton events by Chinese teams.
The practice first surfaced in 1987, when He Zhili ignored an order to throw a semi-final to teammate Guan Jianhua at the 1987 world table tennis championships.
She went on to win the final, but was left out of the 1988 Seoul Olympic team as punishment.
In badminton, suspicions are still rife about Lin Dan's defeat to teammate Chen Jin in the recent all-England final, with some experts suggesting that Lin threw the game.

source: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=416666


ps. the original article did not spell Lin Dan's name properly so i changed it. They spelled his name as WANG Dan. ahahaha how very silly.




I don't know about the rest of the BC community, but I think match fixing is disgusting and all it does is damage the image of any sport! :mad:
In the past, I have suspected Li Yongbo of match fixing, but now this confirms it.

It's their prerogative - wouldn't you want the winners to be the strongest or defeated the strongest?

Anyway, loooooooooooooooong thread about this months ago.

the only thing they are achieving by this is putting badmintons place in future olympics at jeopardy.

And the player mentioned in the article, He Zhili, played for Japan afterwards with a new name Koyama Chire. She was also labelled a traitor by Chinese fans and won the Asian Games Gold Medal in 1994, beating the great Deng Yaping in the Final.

Here's some more information about her:
Koyama Chire used to be He Zhili. She used to play for China. She also used to be world champion. She wasn't supposed to be champion - her coach instructed her to lose to her teammate. She refused, and was vilified throughout China for it. That's just completely messed up. Your coach suddenly plays God? Anyway, Chire, as she continues to be called, moved to Japan, married a Japanese man, and played for Japan.

Some rather long excerpts (read at your own risk :D) of the interview between a Chinese reporter and He Zhili:

Sun Meiying was the vice chairperson of the Chinese Table Tennis Association, and she was the first ever national table tennis championship. She was a table tennis veteran. Sun Meiying had thorough knowledge of the table tennis situation and she spoke very clearly. She told me about the history of match-fixing, about when it started and who threw which match to whom. I was very amazed.

Q: Did the players ever think about resisting?
A: The first match-fixing was for Zhuang Zedong. After Zhuang Zedong won the first world championship, they wanted to make him into a national model who won three championships. At the time, Li Furong was ranked right behind Zhuang Zedong. Each time in the finals, Li Furong had to lose to Zhuang. I have chatted with Zhuang Zedong and he was displeased. He said, "I can beat Li Furong on skill alone. When the leaders told Li to throw the match, I was discouraged. So now people are saying that all my world championships were fixed; Li Furong was also angry: 'I could have beaten Zhuang Zedong but the leaders wanted me to lose.'"

-- very much like Lin Dan vs Chen Jin or Bao Chunlai thingy

Q: If the predecessors yielded even though they were unhappy, then where did He Zhili find the courage to resist?
A: Mrs. Sun told me that it was her idea for He Zhili not to throw the match. Before He Zhili departed from Beijing to New Delhi to participate in the 37th World Table Tennis Championships, Sun Meiying anticipated that the table tennis team would make He Zhili throw the match. She said, "If they want to make you throw the match, you should not object at the time. You just keep playing. If you objected, they would not let you play."

Q: When He Zhili refused to throw the match, did she consider the consequences?
A: I asked her. "It was a good thing that you won. What if you lost the finals?" She said that she never thought about it. If she did, she would have gone crazy.

The Chinese table tennis team always considered match-fixing to be a part of its repertoire, especially in an era such as 1987. He Zhili had been very brave to resist the team. She refused to throw away the match to Guan Jianhua and she was facing South Korean's Liang Yingzi in the final. But the entire staff of coaches walked away and ignored her.

After He Zhili won the championship, the superiors wanted her to write self-criticisms. Sun Meiying was a People's Congress representative and she wrote to then State Chairman Yang Shangkun and People's Congress chairman Wan Li. They issued a directive: "We do not punish winners." With this directive from the national leaders, the national sports committee and the table tennis team did not dare to force He Zhili do self-criticisms.


Q: After your report came out, did the table tennis team ever reflect on what they were doing?
A: They would not reflect. At the 2005 World Table Tennis Championships in Shanghai, a reporter asked then Table Tennis/Badminton Center director Cai Zhenhua about his views on match-fixing. Cai Zhenhua said, "If necessary, the match outcome should be fixed because the national interests overrides all else." -- much like Li Yongbo's words.

I feel sorry for the Chinese table tennis team. Li Furong was forced to throw his matches against Zhuang Zedong. He was a victim himself. When he became the leader, he forced other people to throw matches. Throwing matches is against the Olympic spirit of "openness, fairness and justice." This is like match rigging.

Q: Did He Zhili leave the national team on account of the match throwing incident?
A: The reason that He Zhili ultimately left was that she was excluded from the Olympic team roster in 1988. At the time, He Zhili was ranked number one in the world. In <China Sports News>, Sun Meiying published an essay in which she used scientific data to show that He Zhili was the best player in China based upon her performance over several years. But the Chinese table tennis team ignored her. So He Zhili could not hang around the Chinese national team anymore, and she therefore left Beijing. At the time, He Zhili was only twenty-four years old and at the prime of her form. She wanted to compete internationally. Just before she joined the national team, she had gotten to know the Japanese national Hideyuki Koyama and the two came together slowly. So the road in front of her was to get married and move to Japan.

Q: So she represented Japan in competition in order to win a championship. That was how she became labeled a "Chinese traitor"?
A: Six years later, at the Asian Games in Hiroshima, He Zhili knocked out Qiao Hong, Chen Jing and Deng Yaping, all three of whom were tops in the world, in a single day. I joked that she was a small private entrepreneur who defeated the large state corporation. The Japanese table tennis players are amateurs and they had poor training conditions. He Zhili trained by playing against her husband. In China, the conditions are better, with so many people and coaches. Zhang Xielin made an evaluation afterwards. He Zhili had not competed internationally for six years and Zhang never even thought that she was a serious contender. At the time, He Zhili was already thirty years old and seven years older than Deng Yaping.
Zhuang Zedong had to write a self-criticism on account of He Zhili. Zhuang's wife is Japanese. One time, Zhuang and his wife went on a family visit in Japan and He Zhili came to visit them. They even played table tennis for more than an hour. After He Zhili won the championship at the Asian Games in Hiroshima, someone informed on Zhuang that he had coached He Zhili. The superiors wanted Zhuang Zedong to write a self-criticism. Zhuang thought that this was risible, because he said, "Why would a top player like He Zhili need my coaching?"

He Zhili had said, "I want to compete internationally. If I cannot do it on the Chinese team, I will have to choose another country. So I married a Japanese and I competed for Japan. If I had married a Thai, people might not have called me a Chinese traitor."

Mia Audina used to being called " traitor" too.......

Some rather long excerpts (read at your own risk :D) of the interview between a Chinese reporter and He Zhili:
badMania, what's the source of this interview transcript?

Match fixing means no sportivity values in sport world and CHN badminton proud of this action because they want to show PATRIOTISM. Country interest is everything, poor Zhou Mi who must 'gave up' to deliver her senior ZN in Athens Olympic final...

Sad that such a world power has to resort to such tatics to bolster national pride. While China may be the next world power, it looks like we will have to wait for quite sometime for the next 'great nation' to emerge. Funny that a nation so powerfull in badminton is so phsycologically fragile. They are unworthy of hosting Olympics.

badMania, what's the source of this interview transcript?

This is the source:
http://zonaeuropa.com/20070310_1.htm

This is the source:
http://zonaeuropa.com/20070310_1.htm
To avoid controversy and for purposes of credibility, it's always useful to mention the source :)

Sad that such a world power has to resort to such tatics to bolster national pride. While China may be the next world power, it looks like we will have to wait for quite sometime for the next 'great nation' to emerge. Funny that a nation so powerfull in badminton is so phsycologically fragile. They are unworthy of hosting Olympics.
China's badminton honchos claim to resort to such manoeuvres for the sake of national pride.
However, when such goings-on are revealed, it's national pride that takes the hit ;)

Now, isn't that ironic? :rolleyes:

Well.. don't jump on me for this post.

I wonder fixing a match is anything new at all. To me, it is everywhere and has been around before wheel was invented. (Don't know when wheel was invented. But I think it has been around before that time.) Player or national coach does that for various reasons. It is not an insult to fans. It is an insult to fans when the player decide to walk out in protest. That's how I see in any sport not just in badminton.:cool:

What a pity one of the strongest nations in badminton has sunk to this level! I wonder if the BWF will take some action against China? Chen Jin was allowed to defeat Lin Dan in the AE Finals 2008 so he could gain valuable points to maintain his World Ranking. If he (CJ) maintains his current 4 th position, he will be eligible to enter in the Summer Olympics along with Lin Dan and Boa Chunlai. With three Chinese players in the MS competition, China would have a better chance of gold in this event!

Well.. don't jump on me for this post.

I wonder fixing a match is anything new at all. To me, it is everywhere and has been around before wheel was invented. (Don't know when wheel was invented. But I think it has been around before that time.) Player or national coach does that for various reasons. It is not an insult to fans. It is an insult to fans when the player decide to walk out in protest. That's how I see in any sport not just in badminton.:cool:

well for me, seeing both sides, i feel that China can do it because it is so dominant. if they can reach the finals almost every tournament, the nation itself recieves the glory of a gold and silver...so they have the right to decide who recieves it, who gets the ranking points in THEIR interest. this is only insulting to fans because of walkovers and less intense matches, and the players that play for CHN because some may lose out on opportunities. However, IMHO, if they did play to their full power, i still believe LD would still be world #1 and LCW#2 and Taufik, where ever he is :p not a big LD fan, just credit to his abilities :rolleyes:

Well.. don't jump on me for this post.

I wonder fixing a match is anything new at all. To me, it is everywhere and has been around before wheel was invented. (Don't know when wheel was invented. But I think it has been around before that time.) Player or national coach does that for various reasons. It is not an insult to fans. It is an insult to fans when the player decide to walk out in protest. That's how I see in any sport not just in badminton.:cool:

I'm sure match fixing has been around for a long time. I don't agree that it is everywhere and I don't agree that it has been around since before the wheel was invented. Care to back up what you say with recent examples and in what sport?

What I will tell you is that in other sports (Soccer and Baseball for example) when it was uncovered the perpertrators where dealt with severly.

You also have to consider this match fixing activity by China in the wider context of China being the Olympic host. China has invested alot into these Olympics as they see it as a chance to send a message to the world that China is ready to take it's rightfull place as a great nation of the world. So far, their behaviour indicates otherwise. Part of being a dominant Nation in a sport is having the confidence in your abilities at that sport to not have to resort to cheating. Being a 'Great Nation' includes amoung many other things having the strength of character as a nation to withstand a loss in that sport. The social fabric of Canada did not unravel when they lost in Olympic hockey.

I knew someone would jump on my throat.:eek::eek:

Care to back up what you say with recent examples and in what sport?

Well, that was just a figure of speech. I have never ever claimed those were facts. One could argue that the phrase "To me" implies "I think" and whatever followed by the phrase "To me" is a personal opinion which may or may not be based on facts. --Oh boy..oh boy..I can just see it now. This will turn into a linguistics thread. BTW, I am not qualify for linguistics discussion because I didn't learn to speak English until about 20 years ago. No..No..Chinese is not my primary language either although I speak very very little.


What I will tell you is that in other sports (Soccer and Baseball for example) when it was uncovered the perpertrators where dealt with severly.


I think that most of match fixing in soccer and baseball involve some sort of gambling which, I think, is illegal. I think that the underlying motive for match fixing in soccer, baseball, football or basketball is a bit different than this one. I am not saying this is right either. I think that badminton is one of those sports where top players are a part of national squad although the sport itself is an individual sport. I look at the coach as a general in a battle field where individual players are soldiers. A general will do whatever it takes to win the war for the country. Of course, one might scream "Even with chemical weapons????" Technical discussion of a war is way beyond of limited knowledge. Anyway, the coach will do whatever it takes to get more medals for the country. After all, that is his/her job. Believe it or not, I don't even know who the coach is. Nor can I say his/her name properly.


You also have to consider this match fixing activity by China in the wider context of China being the Olympic host. China has invested alot into these Olympics as they see it as a chance to send a message to the world that China is ready to take it's rightfull place as a great nation of the world. So far, their behaviour indicates otherwise. Part of being a dominant Nation in a sport is having the confidence in your abilities at that sport to not have to resort to cheating. Being a 'Great Nation' includes amoung many other things having the strength of character as a nation to withstand a loss in that sport. The social fabric of Canada did not unravel when they lost in Olympic hockey.

I rather stay out of this because if I am looking for a reason to discredit a nation or boycott any Olympic host nation I will always find one. Maybe, even plenty.:)

whatever followed by the phrase "To me"

Should have been whatever follows after the phrase "To me"

i ask this:
- shouldn't pitch hitting in baseball unethical too if same standard is ask from china?
- shouldn't substitution in basketball, volleyball, hockey, soccer, etc be unethical too?

why strategizing players within the same team is allowed in other sports but it's damnation for badminton? WHy exception is allowed for thomas/uber cup where each team wanted certain player to go against other certain player?

Badminton - honourable sport.
Isnt that sound good?

Badminton - honourable sport.
Isnt that sound good?
if it is by honor system, we won't need umpire, line judges, no need of prizes as winners should be happy to have their photos in the newspaper

We'll try the best to keep badminton as the most 'honourable' sport in worldwide.

Our shutllers arent as bad as footballers.
Got what i mean?

Badminton - honourable sport.
Isnt that sound good?

It used to be more honorable when played in the backyard without the need of linesmen :eek:

We'll try the best to keep badminton as the most 'honourable' sport in worldwide.

Our shutllers arent as bad as footballers.
Got what i mean?

let start the honorabler sport image by not having KKK/tbh trotting around the country as puppets for MAL politicians

Well.. don't jump on me for this post.

I wonder fixing a match is anything new at all. To me, it is everywhere and has been around before wheel was invented. (Don't know when wheel was invented. But I think it has been around before that time.) Player or national coach does that for various reasons. It is not an insult to fans. It is an insult to fans when the player decide to walk out in protest. That's how I see in any sport not just in badminton.:cool:
Why do you think MAS do not fix matches when they have so many opportunities?

Why do you think MAS do not fix matches when they have so many opportunities?
- because BAM doenst have an unified goal or objective
- BAM want to beat klrc and vice versa

let start the honorabler sport image by not having KKK/tbh trotting around the country as puppets for MAL politicians
a truth that hurts.

because BAM doenst have an unified goal or objective
We have once produce a young champions without objective.
Sound plausible to u?

....
I rather stay out of this because if I am looking for a reason to discredit a nation or boycott any Olympic host nation I will always find one. Maybe, even plenty.:)

I agree with you. The BC discussion of badminton here should have nothing to do with China hosting OG 08. It was the job for International Olympic Committee and politicians. I hope the discussion will not go down the slippery-slope of politics.

Why do you think MAS do not fix matches when they have so many opportunities?

Once again:eek::eek::eek:

Umm...been away from badminton for over a decade. I don't know enough to give you shear speculation. Nor am I interested in speculation. I will read speculation when I want to get a good laugh or chuckle. I am not aware of any official facts either. I am afraid, you will have to take this to someone who can twist a mere speculation into facts or someone who can speak intelligently about badminton.:)

as i have said b4, all the positioning now by lyb so he wouldnt need to do in the OG

as i have said b4, all the positioning now by lyb so he wouldnt need to do in the OG

I see. I see. I can never figure out their game plan. Interesting, I must say.

I agree with you. The BC discussion of badminton here should have nothing to do with China hosting OG 08. It was the job for International Olympic Committee and politicians. I hope the discussion will not go down the slippery-slope of politics.

Well said. Point taken.

i agree that the match fixing may have been done in the interest of the country. i agree that some fans feels put off by the match fixing. i also agree that if that match fixing is not connected to gambling, it really have no obvious illegal issue. but i dont want to comment on this. each country to it's own, on how they would like to approach any sport.

however, i feel for the players. that is all i have to say. to not have the chance to go all out everytime must be hard for them. to throw away a game you think you can win is not good for the heart. :) you worked so hard and yet you are told to not try so hard to win. and more so when people who heard about the match fixing, thinks that you won not on merit but merely on strategy. no satisfaction for a sportsman/woman. i simply hope every athlete that worked hard to achieve their dream, get to give their best all the time. :)

Well.. don't jump on me for this post.

I wonder fixing a match is anything new at all. To me, it is everywhere and has been around before wheel was invented. (Don't know when wheel was invented. But I think it has been around before that time.) Player or national coach does that for various reasons. It is not an insult to fans. It is an insult to fans when the player decide to walk out in protest. That's how I see in any sport not just in badminton.:cool:

Why do you think MAS do not fix matches when they have so many opportunities?

Once again:eek::eek::eek:

Umm...been away from badminton for over a decade. I don't know enough to give you shear speculation. Nor am I interested in speculation. I will read speculation when I want to get a good laugh or chuckle. I am not aware of any official facts either. I am afraid, you will have to take this to someone who can twist a mere speculation into facts or someone who can speak intelligently about badminton.:)

You never mentioned MAS, but that did not stop someone from putting words in your mouth and making a sure statement by pretending to ask a question :cool:

You got the right attitude not be sucked into the things you don't even know or care about ;)

I knew someone would jump on my throat.:eek::eek:



Well, that was just a figure of speech. I have never ever claimed those were facts. One could argue that the phrase "To me" implies "I think" and whatever followed by the phrase "To me" is a personal opinion which may or may not be based on facts. --Oh boy..oh boy..I can just see it now. This will turn into a linguistics thread. BTW, I am not qualify for linguistics discussion because I didn't learn to speak English until about 20 years ago. No..No..Chinese is not my primary language either although I speak very very little.

Personal opinion is fine but when you offer it be prepared to be challanged on it. "To me" is not a license to pull stuff out of your back side. There was no language issue so don't use it as a crutch and, I never remotely implied you where Chinese so give it a rest.

I think that most of match fixing in soccer and baseball involve some sort of gambling which, I think, is illegal. I think that the underlying motive for match fixing in soccer, baseball, football or basketball is a bit different than this one. I am not saying this is right either. I think that badminton is one of those sports where top players are a part of national squad although the sport itself is an individual sport. I look at the coach as a general in a battle field where individual players are soldiers.

The most famous cases have involved gambling but there have been cases in soccer where matches were fixed to position teams in the play offs and the teams were banned from competition the next year.

A general will do whatever it takes to win the war for the country. Of course, one might scream "Even with chemical weapons????" Technical discussion of a war is way beyond of limited knowledge. Anyway, the coach will do whatever it takes to get more medals for the country. After all, that is his/her job. Believe it or not, I don't even know who the coach is. Nor can I say his/her name properly.

Nice analogy Chemical warfare? That analogy is just wrong on so many levels but the very fact that you are comparing sport to warfare shows a complete lack of understanding of what the spirit of the Olympics is all about.


I rather stay out of this because if I am looking for a reason to discredit a nation or boycott any Olympic host nation I will always find one. Maybe, even plenty.:)

Sorry, but it's not that simple. The very act of match fixing is political in nature. By engaging in match fixing China is injecting politics into sport. As individauls we are judged by our actions so too with nations.

Well said. Point taken.

Discussing politics is a sure way to get a thread closed fast :D

If the match between CJ and LD is fixed, it is hard to say that is to the interest of CJ.

I believe, if possible, they want BCL and CJ so badly in the OG to clear the path to Champ for LD!

i ask this:
- shouldn't pitch hitting in baseball unethical too if same standard is ask from china? LOL- why is pitch hitting unethical? It's in the rules isn't it. Show me where there is an allowance for match fixing in Laws of Badminton.

- shouldn't substitution in basketball, volleyball, hockey, soccer, etc be unethical too? Same comments as above.

why strategizing players within the same team is allowed in other sports but it's damnation for badminton? WHy exception is allowed for thomas/uber cup where each team wanted certain player to go against other certain player?

You're comparisons are comical. Look to all the supporters of China, why not simply petition for a change in the Laws of Badminton to allow for match fixing? Then the debate will end and you won't have to waste so much time comming up with these idiotic justifications for cheating.

You're comparisons are comical. Look to all the supporters of China, why not simply petition for a change in the Laws of Badminton to allow for match fixing? Then the debate will end and you won't have to waste so much time comming up with these idiotic justifications for cheating.

did i say it's fair? can't i give comparable examples from other sports?

did i say it's fair? can't i give comparable examples from other sports?

Sure but shouldn't they be well.......... comparable? Which your examples weren't. Each of your examples involved situations which are allowed for in the rules of the given sport. Match fixing is cheating if you want it allowed then start a petition and present it to the governing body.

You're comparisons are comical. Look to all the supporters of China, why not simply petition for a change in the Laws of Badminton to allow for match fixing? Then the debate will end and you won't have to waste so much time comming up with these idiotic justifications for cheating.
more comical is why don't you petition for change?
why r u asking me to do your work? It's simple as u have said

more comical is why don't you petition for change?
why r u asking me to do your work?

Well because I'm happy with the rules as they are. I don't like to see match fixing by ANYONE. The funny part about this is that if it was MAS or IND egaging in match fixing the supporters of China would be amougst the loudest protesters.

Well because I'm happy with the rules as they are. I don't like to see match fixing by ANYONE. The funny part about this is that if it was MAS or IND egaging in match fixing the supporters of China would be amougst the loudest protesters.
if u r so happy with the current rules, why all the whining?

your last statement is pure speculaton/fabrication on your part.
Now u r finding fault on some entity when the suppose offence haven't even happened

if u r so happy with the current rules, why all the whining?

your last statement is pure speculaton/fabrication on your part.

Yes it is, but there is a fairly good precedent from the reaction to the rather blatent cheating by the Koreans. At this point I don't really care too much about the whole issue. If attitudes like your's toward cheating/fairplay are indicative of the attitude of the badminton community as a whole then badminton will continue to be under recoginized and will deserve to be so.

It's astounding that the concept of fair play is so difficult to grasp. It's not that complicated. Denmark and England seem to get it.

Yes it is, but there is a fairly good precedent from the reaction to the rather blatent cheating by the Koreans. At this point I don't really care too much about the whole issue. If attitudes like your's toward cheating/fairplay are indicative of the attitude of the badminton community as a whole then badminton will continue to be under recoginized and will deserve to be so.

It's astounding that the concept of fair play is so difficult to grasp. It's not that complicated. Denmark and England seem to get it.

That's because Denamrk and England are the losers. There is team strategy to consider. In that situation, the question is asked "Do I want one of my team to win the Olympic gold? If I do, then I need to have a strategy."

It's the same in cycling - they ride around in teams, protecting the main cyclist, blocking other teams off. It's a team strategy for the ultimate prize.

At least in badminton, I haven't heard of match fixing for the sake of gambling....yet.

Polar_Bear and cooler:
Unless one of you is Li Yongbo and the other Li Mao, it will help if you guys directed your comments towards the issue at hand.

No personal exchanges here, please ;)

That's because Denamrk and England are the losers. There is team strategy to consider. In that situation, the question is asked "Do I want one of my team to win the Olympic gold? If I do, then I need to have a strategy."

It's the same in cycling - they ride around in teams, protecting the main cyclist, blocking other teams off. It's a team strategy for the ultimate prize.

At least in badminton, I haven't heard of match fixing for the sake of gambling....yet.
Instead of match-fixing, I'd prefer to use one of these terms: result-fixing or competition-strategy or match-strategy:cool:

After all, the very motive behind these methods or moves is not just to win but to ensure victory.

That's because Denamrk and England are the losers. There is team strategy to consider. In that situation, the question is asked "Do I want one of my team to win the Olympic gold? If I do, then I need to have a strategy."

It's the same in cycling - they ride around in teams, protecting the main cyclist, blocking other teams off. It's a team strategy for the ultimate prize.

At least in badminton, I haven't heard of match fixing for the sake of gambling....yet.

I can't comment too much because I don't know alot about cycling or the particular discipline you are talking about (out door or track). I guess the crux of the debate is do you want 'professional' badminton to be a team sport or an individaul sport? If it's a team sport then each 'Team' should only be allowed to field a set amount of players equal for all teams.

The governing body of badminton should be sending a stronger message either way. If match fixing is allowed then they should say so. If it isn't then they should be taking the current situation more seriously.

My opinion is based on what I believe is best for the game of badminton. I don't care where the winner of an event comes from as long as it is the best player on the court on that day. If it makes you feel better I'd be just as happy to have the gold medals mailed to the Chinese team today. If that's what they need to feel good about themselves as a Country then I'm all for a happy China.

Instead of match-fixing, I'd prefer to use one of these terms: result-fixing or competition-strategy or match-strategy:cool:

After all, the very motive behind these methods or moves is not just to win but to ensure victory.

But say as an example, CJ vs LD this year at the AE, CHN has already ensured victory...a silver and a gold...which is why i believe, as long as the fans get a good match that they paid to see, there really is nothing wrong...well, unless you represent CHN or whichever country as a player...i see these "fixed" results before in WWE :p

Yes it is, but there is a fairly good precedent from the reaction to the rather blatent cheating by the Koreans. At this point I don't really care too much about the whole issue. If attitudes like your's toward cheating/fairplay are indicative of the attitude of the badminton community as a whole then badminton will continue to be under recoginized and will deserve to be so.

It's astounding that the concept of fair play is so difficult to grasp. It's not that complicated. Denmark and England seem to get it.

it's rather a bold statement of u to broad brush other badminton fans as cheaters. It seem u dunno where to draw the line cheating vs strategic planning. You said denmark and england seem to get it. Well they also seem to be least vocal about it too. Looking at AE MSF, to me it seem it doesnt matter CJ or LD playing against lcw anyway. All this game fixing talks are mostly academic. Why? because fans on the losing side tend to find reason for their fav. player's failure, it's other people's faults. Have people brought up instance where game fixing backfired? Have people brought up game fixing when china loses? The best way to hurt lyb's game fixing is to beat his players. ie more action and less talk (whining)

Polar_Bear and cooler:
Unless one of you is Li Yongbo and the other Li Mao, it will help if you guys directed your comments towards the issue at hand.

No personal exchanges here, please ;)i think i have kept my post content very objective:D

But say as an example, CJ vs LD this year at the AE, CHN has already ensured victory...a silver and a gold...which is why i believe, as long as the fans get a good match that they paid to see, there really is nothing wrong...well, unless you represent CHN or whichever country as a player...i see these "fixed" results before in WWE :p

You are assuming that victory in this year's All England Open was what they were after.

No, no, no... the victory they're aiming for lies a few months ahead yet ;)

i think i have kept my post content very objective:D

Quite right, the content was mostly directed at one object or objective :p

. All this game fixing talks are mostly academic. Why? because fans on the losing side

Nope, it's not academic and it's not fans on the losing side. If it was INA doing it I would be all over them. If it was England then I would be critizing them. My issue is with match fixing. It is pure circumstance that it happens to be China employing it. I don't like the practise and I don't think it belongs in the sport of badminton. Sadly this is what happens when you pollute a sport with polictical interest. Professional badminton should try to model itself after Tennis or Squash both are somewhat simular sports and in the case of Tennis it has managed to flourish the encumberances of political interest or nationalism.

pull stuff out of your back side


uh-oh!! I sense some frustration. I would calm myself down before I let my ugly side take over.


Nice analogy Chemical warfare? That analogy is just wrong on so many levels but the very fact that you are comparing sport to warfare shows a complete lack of understanding of what the spirit of the Olympics is all about.


Don't know why you think it was a analogy. Never meant it to be. My intention was for those who might scream out loud and ask even if it takes chemical warfare to win the war. I wanted to prevent someone from hijacking this thread to a war discussion. Whew...:rolleyes:

Sorry, but it's not that simple. The very act of match fixing is political in nature. By engaging in match fixing China is injecting politics into sport. As individauls we are judged by our actions so too with nations.

Wow...never knew you were so passionate about tying sport to politic. I thought it was pretty clear from my post that I wanted to stay out of this politic thing.

Keep me out of this politic thing.:)

But say as an example, CJ vs LD this year at the AE, CHN has already ensured victory...a silver and a gold...which is why i believe, as long as the fans get a good match that they paid to see, there really is nothing wrong...well, unless you represent CHN or whichever country as a player...i see these "fixed" results before in WWE :p

Players can get hurt badly in tough matches, which would jeopardize their chances for winning future matches or tourney. Look at what happened to CJ after AE 08? He had to retire in the R1 in the following Swiss Open 08.

Wow...never knew you were so passionate about tying sport to politic. I thought it was pretty clear from my post that I wanted to stay out of this politic thing.

Keep me out of this politic thing.:)

I wasn't. I was merely pointing out that it is impossible to do so because in this case the match fixing is a direct manifestion of politics polluting the sport. Read the article again if you missed it. The justification given by the person representing China for match fixing was "National Interest".

Given that you are sensative about someone putting words in your mouth (and rightly so) you should be more carefull about doing the same to others

Also to your point about not wanting someone hijaking this thread to a war discussion. That is very odd of you to say because unless I missed something earlier the only one that has mentioned anything about war was you in that very post.

You never mentioned MAS, but that did not stop someone from putting words in your mouth and making a sure statement by pretending to ask a question :cool:

You got the right attitude not be sucked into the things you don't even know or care about ;)

Exactly!

(All I wanted to say was "Exactly". Somehow, I got a message about a min of 15 characters to post a message)

Players can get hurt badly in tough matches, which would jeopardize their chances for winning future matches or tourney. Look at what happened to CJ after AE 08? He had to retire in the R1 in the following Swiss Open 08.

oh ya, i understand. but it comes as a risk in every game and every rally. I also understand that having walkovers and the supposed "match fixing" decreases theses risks. so it's not hard to see CHN's point of view in their type of strategy, and accumulating the highest amount of glory and championships :p

Think I'm off on my negative opinion of match fixing? Fine, don't take it from me. Take it from Song Zhaonian, deputy director of Weightlifting, Wrestling and Judo Sports Administration Center of China. "Match fixing definitely acts against sportsmanship and further development of the sport". He is talking about an incident that occurred in a Judo competition. Glad to see some sports are concerned about the practice.

For reference;
http://english.cri.cn/301/2005/10/14/53@24789.htm

Given that you are sensative about someone putting words in your mouth (and rightly so) you should be more carefull about doing the same to others


Wow.. I ain't sensative about this at all. I think this is turnning into a personal attack. Did you ever see me putting words in other people mouths?


Also to your point about not wanting someone hijaking this thread to a war discussion. That is very odd of you to say because unless I missed something earlier the only one that has mentioned anything about war was you in that very post.


Whew.. You don't get it..do you? I wanted to let people know it was how I see it and I did not have anymore to say about generals, soldiers or war because of my limited knowledge about war.


I wasn't. I was merely pointing out that it is impossible to do so because in this case the match fixing is a direct manifestion of politics polluting the sport. Read the article again if you missed it. The justification given by the person representing China for match fixing was "National Interest".


I must point out that I've refused to have a discussion about politic and Olympic with you.

I think you are taking this whole discussion a bit personal. Just what I think.

I don't see anything wrong with this.

I think it was understandable as the Chinese team was trying to avoid other people from taking advantage of their top 2 players battling in full strength. I think it sucks more if a player with less skill won the title just b/c the opponent is exhausted from a previous battle.

but i thought stamina is also part of it. i dont think a lesser skilled opponent can simply defeat a better player simply due to exhaustion. and if indeed the player is exhausted, that is his weakness and should not be the excuse to throw a match. just my opinion.

Think I'm off on my negative opinion of match fixing? Fine, don't take it from me. Take it from Song Zhaonian, deputy director of Weightlifting, Wrestling and Judo Sports Administration Center of China. "Match fixing definitely acts against sportsmanship and further development of the sport". He is talking about an incident that occurred in a Judo competition. Glad to see some sports are concerned about the practice.

For reference;
http://english.cri.cn/301/2005/10/14/53@24789.htm

That's a good find. Now all you have to do is show it to LiYongbo and persuade him it is above national interest:).

oh ya, i understand. but it comes as a risk in every game and every rally. I also understand that having walkovers and the supposed "match fixing" decreases theses risks. so it's not hard to see CHN's point of view in their type of strategy, and accumulating the highest amount of glory and championships :p

It could be anyone's view, not just Chn, and there had been other instances which I don't care to talk about. Lip-service here is useless in my opinion.

That's a good find. Now all you have to do is show it to LiYongbo and persuade him it is above national interest:).

That simple eh? Actually I don't think it is fair to say that LiYongbo is a central part of this issue. In fact, I think he is more a symptom than a source of the problem. I think the bigger issue is the unwillingness of the governing body of badminton to take actions to reinforce the concept of fairplay and sportsmanship in the game of badminton.

I think that the quote from Song Zhaonian is something that should be pondered by everyone in the badminton community who doesn't see match fixing as something that should be rectified or discouraged not just LYB. Match fixing is cheating and cheating in all it's forms is detrimental to sport.

It is amazing to me that it took Lin Dan throwing his racquet at someone during an event to get the governing body to actually so much as comment about the cheating that was going on with the line calls! How ironic that LD's act of 'violence' may turn out to be one of the best things to happen to the sport if there is follow through on the governing body's expressed concern about the itegratity of the officiating at sanctioned events.

Sad that such a world power has to resort to such tatics to bolster national pride. While China may be the next world power, it looks like we will have to wait for quite sometime for the next 'great nation' to emerge. Funny that a nation so powerfull in badminton is so phsycologically fragile. They are unworthy of hosting Olympics.

What a pity one of the strongest nations in badminton has sunk to this level! I wonder if the BWF will take some action against China? Chen Jin was allowed to defeat Lin Dan in the AE Finals 2008 so he could gain valuable points to maintain his World Ranking. If he (CJ) maintains his current 4 th position, he will be eligible to enter in the Summer Olympics along with Lin Dan and Boa Chunlai. With three Chinese players in the MS competition, China would have a better chance of gold in this event!
Badminton - honourable sport.
Isnt that sound good?

Why do you think MAS do not fix matches when they have so many opportunities?

know the history before start pointing fingers.
I'm sure bwf, INA, KOR, etc knows the history, that's why they seem to be quiet about china.
From another old hand: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=733163&postcount=199

Li Yongbo, you naughty boy!!!

sigh.. i have a feeling that China might arrange some mis-judges like in China Masters. China badminton team is very good at that
and LI YONG BO is to blame!
all this just for 'revenge' which is unessessary in terms of badminton. ==

if u ask me, i think the Olympic games should send line judges of all different countries to avoid mis-judges which is absolutely not accepted especially at super big events such as the Olympic games which is all about sportsmanship.
What is this? some kinda war? it's a sport.. ==
there has to be some fun in it.



Li Yongbo is not naughty.. he is pure evillllllllllllllllllll.. with a capital E.

i ask this:
- shouldn't substitution in basketball, volleyball, hockey, soccer, etc be unethical too?

why strategizing players within the same team is allowed in other sports but it's damnation for badminton? WHy exception is allowed for thomas/uber cup where each team wanted certain player to go against other certain player?

Isn't it obvious ? All the sports you mentionned above are team sports.
Badminton is very much an individual event, much like Tennis and Table Tennis.
Oh ! Didn't you read the article on the 1st page on match fixing in table tennis? Tell those chinese players that you don't have a problem with match fixing and see how they react. From the article, it seems to me some of those players are quite unhappy with match fixing.

know the history before pointing fingers.
I'm sure bwf, INA, KOR, etc knows the history, that's why they seem to be quiet about china.
From another old hand: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=733163&postcount=199

Yes. Just because it's been done in the past or even done done now by other countries doesn't justify it is okay to do match fixing.
Match fixing shouldn't be allowed by any country.

I think the bigger issue is the unwillingness of the governing body of badminton to take actions to reinforce the concept of fairplay and sportsmanship in the game of badminton.
...
How ironic that LD's act of 'violence' may turn out to be one of the best things to happen to the sport if there is follow through on the governing body's expressed concern about the itegratity of the officiating at sanctioned events.

BWF is like the Badminton Wrestling Federation :p

Isn't it obvious ? All the sports you mentionned above are team sports.
Badminton is very much an individual event, much like Tennis and Table Tennis.
Oh ! Didn't you read the article on the 1st page on match fixing in table tennis? Tell those chinese players that you don't have a problem with match fixing and see how they react. From the article, it seems to me some of those players are quite unhappy with match fixing.
being unhappy is just a state of mind during certain period of time.
LD was also unhappy too in his early days when he had to fold the match to BCL because of the first game win policy. LD is now a superb player and very happy.
Ye Zhaoying was unhappy too at 2000 OG of suppose to give the match to gong zhichao. She look quite happy now as she was chosen the torch bearer for china.

Olympic torchbearer Ye Zhaoying is introduced at a news conference held by South Korea's Samsung Electronics, a sponsor of the relay, Friday, March 21, 2008, in Beijing, China

sigh.. i have a feeling that China might arrange some mis-judges like in China Masters. China badminton team is very good at that
and LI YONG BO is to blame!
all this just for 'revenge' which is unessessary in terms of badminton. ==

if u ask me, i think the Olympic games should send line judges of all different countries to avoid mis-judges which is absolutely not accepted especially at super big events such as the Olympic games which is all about sportsmanship.
What is this? some kinda war? it's a sport.. ==
there has to be some fun in it.



Li Yongbo is not naughty.. he is pure evillllllllllllllllllll.. with a capital E.

If you want to stay in BC, I'd suggest you turn down your vicious personal attack on Li Yongbo, who is the Chn badminton head coach, and you are nobody compared to him. BC forum is not a place for villainizing others :mad:

Isn't it obvious ? All the sports you mentionned above are team sports.
Badminton is very much an individual event, much like Tennis and Table Tennis.
Oh ! Didn't you read the article on the 1st page on match fixing in table tennis? Tell those chinese players that you don't have a problem with match fixing and see how they react. From the article, it seems to me some of those players are quite unhappy with match fixing.

I don't see how a table tennis article had so much relevance to playing badminton unless we were running out ideas and what to say :eek:

sigh.. i have a feeling that China might arrange some mis-judges like in China Masters. China badminton team is very good at that
and LI YONG BO is to blame!
all this just for 'revenge' which is unessessary in terms of badminton. ==

if u ask me, i think the Olympic games should send line judges of all different countries to avoid mis-judges which is absolutely not accepted especially at super big events such as the Olympic games which is all about sportsmanship.
What is this? some kinda war? it's a sport.. ==
there has to be some fun in it.



Li Yongbo is not naughty.. he is pure evillllllllllllllllllll.. with a capital E.

Love or hate him, the man is a legend.

LD was also unhappy too in his early days when he had to fold the match to BCL because of the first game win policy. LD is now a superb player and very happy.

How do you know LD state of mind?

Did you directly asked him how he feels about match fixing?

I don't see how a table tennis article had so much relevance to playing badminton unless we were running out ideas and what to say :eek:

Well, for one, you should read the article about He Zhili, post #8 of this thread. It very much pertains to the discussion of match fixing.

Second, I am certainly not a mod here but people here are free to criticize players or coach, as long as it doesn't come to insults and personal attacks.
Your comments on Heong ("you are a nobody") are as disrespectful as his comments on LYB ("Evil").

...
Well, for one, you should read the article about He Zhili, post #8 of this thread. It very much pertains to the discussion of match fixing.

I have read it, but failed to get the connection with badminton. This is a badminton forum, not a table tennis forum :cool:


Second, I am certainly not a mod here but people here are free to criticize players or coach, as long as it doesn't come to insults and personal attacks.
Your comments on Heong ("you are a nobody") are as disrespectful as his comments on LYB ("Evil").

I said "you are nobody compared to him" meaning Heong compared to LYB, please don't quote me out of the context. I don't see any disrespect here. There are a lot of ppl, including me, are nobody compared to LYB. It's the fact. Maybe Heong is somebody compared to LYB, the head coach of Chn badminton team, please prove I was wrong :D

I have read it, but failed to get the connection with badminton. This is a badminton forum, not a table tennis forum :cool:


Yup. Remember, we were talking about match fixing... We can give examples about other sports concerning match fixing. Wouldn't you agree ? Or does it absolutely need to be about badminton ?


I said "you are nobody compared to him" meaning Heong compared to LYB, please don't quote me out of the context. I don't see any disrespect here. There are a lot of ppl, including me, are nobody compared to LYB. It's the fact. Maybe Heong is somebody compared to LYB, the head coach of Chn badminton team, please prove I was wrong :D

Just to be fair, no one on this earth is nobody compared to another person, whether that person is the coach of a national team or the president of a big country. The janitor in your building is as important as the president of the country he's working in.
This is how I treat everyone with equality. :)
How about you ? ;)

I was joking guys, he's not evil so dont take it too personally. =)
just my personal opinion but not everyone will agree of course.
btw, i aint racist.. coz im chinese myself lol.

but seriously, think about it. Who was the person responsible for China Masters line mis-judges which led to LCW's unfair loss?

but i would admit he plays play a role in badminton and are in some ways a legend to China badminton.

If the match between CJ and LD is fixed, it is hard to say that is to the interest of CJ.

I believe, if possible, they want BCL and CJ so badly in the OG to clear the path to Champ for LD!

as I said it before, CJ & BCL also wants the gold. no doubt about it.

sigh.. i have a feeling that China might arrange some mis-judges like in China Masters. China badminton team is very good at that
and LI YONG BO is to blame!
all this just for 'revenge' which is unessessary in terms of badminton. ==

if u ask me, i think the Olympic games should send line judges of all different countries to avoid mis-judges which is absolutely not accepted especially at super big events such as the Olympic games which is all about sportsmanship.
What is this? some kinda war? it's a sport.. ==
there has to be some fun in it.



Li Yongbo is not naughty.. he is pure evillllllllllllllllllll.. with a capital E.

from 1992 - 2000, Ina players / pairs won:

MS: OG 92, AE 93-94
MD: WC 93-97, OG 96, OG 2000
Thomas Cup : 1994-2000

proved that they are very dominant at that time.
can u proved there was no match fixing when they meet each other?

also, since around 1970, Ina already "fixed" Rudi match in AE, so he looks like "invincible".

from 1992 - 2000, Ina players / pairs won:

MS: OG 92, AE 93-94
MD: WC 93-97, OG 96, OG 2000
Thomas Cup : 1994-2000

proved that they are very dominant at that time.
can u proved there was no match fixing when they meet each other?

also, since around 1970, Ina already "fixed" Rudi match in AE, so he looks like "invincible".

THEY ARE THE GRAND MASTER OF MATCH - FIXING

I was joking guys, he's not evil so dont take it too personally. =)
just my personal opinion but not everyone will agree of course.
btw, i aint racist.. coz im chinese myself lol.

but seriously, think about it. Who was the person responsible for China Masters line mis-judges which led to LCW's unfair loss?

but i would admit he plays play a role in badminton and are in some ways a legend to China badminton.

Thanks for the clarification. Nothing personal, don't mind you criticize LYB. I just don't want to see that kind language. We need to stay as civilized as possible after so many threads being closed or posts deleted by mods.

THEY ARE THE GRAND MASTER OF MATCH - FIXING
Be careful what you said..Winston.....you do not have proof....you are really anti INA as always.....stop pretending that you are from China...remember your brother and auntie are from Indonesia....

from 1992 - 2000, Ina players / pairs won:

MS: OG 92, AE 93-94
MD: WC 93-97, OG 96, OG 2000
Thomas Cup : 1994-2000

proved that they are very dominant at that time.
can u proved there was no match fixing when they meet each other?

also, since around 1970, Ina already "fixed" Rudi match in AE, so he looks like "invincible".


PROOF IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. Just because it's been done in the past or even done done now by other countries doesn't justify it is okay to do match fixing.
Match fixing shouldn't be allowed by any country.

if BWF wants to be fair, why they didn't investigated the match fixing involving Ina's players / pairs, and also sanctioned.
remember, from 1970, no investigated about it. why BWF must do it to CHN?

u can ask ye333 about Rudi.
WC 1983, ask Sabathiel.

Winston_T, please turn down the criticism to other teams, look at more positive things, and enjoy badminton as a whole :) huangkwokhau is right most of the time and I would not argue with him on anything regarding baddy :D

u can ask ye333 about Rudi.
WC 1983, ask Sabathiel.
If you do not have proof...Stop it...you always direct negative things on INA players...hows INA fixed matches in WC or OG?? ...you are always BIAS as always....
Dont accuse INA if you do not have FACTS

Yup. Remember, we were talking about match fixing... We can give examples about other sports concerning match fixing. Wouldn't you agree ? Or does it absolutely need to be about badminton ?

I don't share your opinion here, and every sports is different ;)


Just to be fair, no one on this earth is nobody compared to another person, whether that person is the coach of a national team or the president of a big country. The janitor in your building is as important as the president of the country he's working in.
This is how I treat everyone with equality. :)
How about you ? ;)

You point is well taken that we should treat everyone equally and nicely. But the president is elected by the whole country, a janitor is not. I would not go that far to call the two as equal in their importance :rolleyes:

Be careful what you said..Winston.....you do not have proof....you are really anti INA as always.....stop pretending that you are from China...remember your brother and auntie are from Indonesia....
You serious?? :confused::confused:

guys, why do you think i hate LYB. I dont. :eek:
i have nothing against him. Seriously.

If you do not have proof...Stop it...you always direct negative things on INA players...hows INA fixed matches in WC or OG?? ...you are always BIAS as always....
Dont accuse INA if you do not have FACTS

Please take huangkwokhau's advice and stop all the nonsense about other ppl's business, which have nothing to do with your players or teams :eek:

You serious?? :confused::confused:

guys, why do you think i hate LYB. I dont. :eek:
i have nothing against him. Seriously.
Wisnton T is quite a guy..from post 1, he just directs all negative things on INA players...he said he is from China.,.then he said that he has brother and auntie live in Indonesia....I do not mind if he has the facts...how INA fix matches on WC or OG?? we did not have many players to compete for those occasions..

Please take huangkwokhau's advice and stop all the nonsense about other ppl's business, which have nothing to do with your players or teams :eek:
I just woke up....:D:D have you slept yet??;)

I just woke up....:D:D have you slept yet??;)

Not yet and going now :)

Be careful what you said..Winston.....you do not have proof....you are really anti INA as always.....stop pretending that you are from China...remember your brother and auntie are from Indonesia....

I second huangkwokhau. What proof do you have of Indonesia match fixing? So you are saying because Indonesia was dominant during the 1990s, China is justified in match fixing? It is really incredible how some hardcore China fans will go dig up information decades ago to justify something that is clearly against the spirit and the wellbeing of the game.

I quote from my earlier petition:


This is not only unfair to the badminton fans around the world, but also those who bought (often costly) tickets to those matches. In a time where the status of badminton is being threatened worldwide, both from an Olympic and a popularity aspect, such act(s) can only serve to further plunge the status of the sport. In addition to this, such walkover(s) are blatantly unfair to players that the aforementioned players who received the walkover(s) will play in the next round. As the worldwide badminton community, it is our strongest believe that badminton should be played in a neutral platform, and not through disgraceful technicalities such as these. Furthermore, we strongly believe that this is not in the spirit of the game.

Don't try to drag Indonesia into this discussion to distract us from the real problem.

THEY ARE THE GRAND MASTER OF MATCH - FIXING


i love it when someone quotes their own post, ahahahaha ... that's really funny ... :D:D:p:p

i love it when someone quotes their own post, ahahahaha ... that's really funny ... :D:D:p:p
I'll laugh with u.
i did the same thing before.
Yeah..quite funny.
Winston is just a fan from china.
But my dear winston,be curious of what u have said here.

You never mentioned MAS, but that did not stop someone from putting words in your mouth and making a sure statement by pretending to ask a question :cool:

You got the right attitude not be sucked into the things you don't even know or care about ;)
99% of the time I do not counter-respond because there's no need to; there 's enough room for a whole range of opinions.
But this 1% is just to enlighten you. I'm not expecting any direct response at all. It's just a minimum-effort technique to get people to think.Some people can get going from there and some cannot but life goes on.

99% of the time I do not counter-respond because there's no need to; there 's enough room for a whole range of opinions.
But this 1% is just to enlighten you. I'm not expecting any direct response at all. It's just a minimum-effort technique to get people to think.Some people can get going from there and some cannot but life goes on.

Thanks for explaining it. I saw that before to me (not from you). I would say the side-effect of the technique is to get ppl into trouble by discussing something they did not intend to in the first place :D

But say as an example, CJ vs LD this year at the AE, CHN has already ensured victory...a silver and a gold...which is why i believe, as long as the fans get a good match that they paid to see, there really is nothing wrong...well, unless you represent CHN or whichever country as a player...i see these "fixed" results before in WWE :p

I think you know that CJ winning AE would boost his OG ranking points to keep him in top 4 so China can send 3 MS representatives.;)

You are assuming that victory in this year's All England Open was what they were after.

No, no, no... the victory they're aiming for lies a few months ahead yet ;)

Well..I think this is getting a bit heated now.

Is it just me? Maybe it is just me. But, the way copadh created this thread is quit strange. I mean look at the title of this thread. I guess you could say that's the title of the news. But, this very first post from him is a really a very controversial and provocative topic. I am sure he knew where this would lead to with a title like that. I mean he started a thread and then just vanish.

I will not be surprised if copadh turns out to be a duplicate or a shadow ID. It will be interesting to see what his next post is like. I don't know if he cares to do any follow up. For all I care, he is reading this thread word by word and finds it pretty entertaining. He is definitely a troll if he keeps creating a thread like this.

Maybe, it is just me.

Like many other threads, I don't think there's any "new juice" left in this topic.

Just as many other "less than ideal" facts / rules / regulations, etc in the world, coaches and players simply have to rely on themselves to over come the issue. The true champion should be physically and mentally ready to face any opponents, any number of sets/matches, and any possible "sudden" situation. In order to do so, s/he needs to train harder and smarter, and be well prepared.

The suspected "match fixing" as well as many other rules / laws, can not be fixed in a short period of time. Do you want to be a true champion, and take the challenge, or simply lying down, giving up, crying and screaming every day, it's really your own choice. :o

Well..I think this is getting a bit heated now.

Is it just me? Maybe it is just me. But, the way copadh created this thread is quit strange. I mean look at the title of this thread. I guess you could say that's the title of the news. But, this very first post from him is a really a very controversial and provocative topic. I am sure he knew where this would lead to with a title like that. I mean he started a thread and then just vanish.

I will not be surprised if copadh turns out to be a duplicate or a shadow ID. It will be interesting to see what his next post is like. I don't know if he cares to do any follow up. For all I care, he is reading this thread word by word and finds it pretty entertaining. He is definitely a troll if he keeps creating a thread like this.

Maybe, it is just me.


I thought you said that you wanted to stay out of it...but you keep coming back.....:D:D

If you do not have proof...Stop it...you always direct negative things on INA players...hows INA fixed matches in WC or OG?? ...you are always BIAS as always....
Dont accuse INA if you do not have FACTS

i agree.

we are holding a civilized and educated discussion forum here. i want to see claims to be backed up by facts and not guesses and speculations.

so back it up with facts.

Like many other threads, I don't think there's any "new juice" left in this topic.




http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1258&highlight=fixing

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10961&highlight=fixing

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49635&highlight=li+yongbo

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2469&highlight=fixing

I thought you said that you wanted to stay out of it...but you keep coming back.....:D:D

Well..I wish to stay away from politic or sporting events tied to politic.

I am just sitting in the back seat and making a site note that original creater of this thread is nowhere to be found in this thread, just gone and it is a bit perplexing. Hope no one find this offending.:)

...
Is it just me? Maybe it is just me. But, the way copadh created this thread is quit strange. I mean look at the title of this thread. I guess you could say that's the title of the news. But, this very first post from him is a really a very controversial and provocative topic. I am sure he knew where this would lead to with a title like that. I mean he started a thread and then just vanish.
....
Like many other threads, I don't think there's any "new juice" left in this topic.
...
..just finished skimming over this thread and well, since there's no major SS or BWF tournament going on at the moment, i'm not really surprised by the interests gathered on this topic. What does one expect when most of BCers have no tournament(s) to follow??..:p :);)
Yes, this topic has been discussed/brought up, even beaten to near death before (as cooler also pointed out). But i surmise, since it's an Olympic year and by chance Beijing is the host, then might as well bring up this issue, again.

On that note, with all the talks and recent activities that have been going on in CHN, it should be an interesting Olympics to follow. I know all eyes will be on Beijing & the Games.:cool:

i just hope the recent protests, doping and other issues which have surfaced will not disrupt the games too much. it would be a shame if we don't get to properly witness the greatest sporting event of our time.

..just finished skimming over this thread and well, since there's no major SS or BWF tournament going on at the moment, i'm not really surprised by the interests gathered on this topic. What does one expect when most of BCers have no tournament(s) to follow??..:p :);)


Right..Right..Being the kind of badminton vikings that we are, we have to jump on each other's neck when there are no battles to be fought. make sense..make sense..hee..hee..:D:D:D

A few common question from an identical thread to this one, months ago:

How do you identify the culprits?
How do you deal with the culprits?
Why should they be dealt with?
What can be done to help remedy this 'malaise'?
What kind of law can be enacted to prevent this from happening?

IIRC, the answers to the questions aboves above range from 'not sure' to 'nothing'.

Some consider a possible solution is to de-nationalise(?) the professional player's association to make badminton a fully individual and professional outfit free from the influence of national bodies of their respective nations ie. tennis. When they keep everything post-tax to themselves and depend on it for a living, maybe everybody would fight for a slice of the cake instead of it being handed to them.

But of course, what is ever free from national interests?

i agree.

we are holding a civilized and educated discussion forum here. i want to see claims to be backed up by facts and not guesses and speculations.

so back it up with facts.

Music to my ears, boss. :D

When match fixing takes place, it is we the fans who are "Short changed". We pay to go see the matches to see players deliver their best by giving 100%! When a match is fixed, this does not happen! Players just goes through the "motions". It becomes something like acting!

A few common question from an identical thread to this one, months ago:

How do you identify the culprits?
How do you deal with the culprits?
Why should they be dealt with?
What can be done to help remedy this 'malaise'?
What kind of law can be enacted to prevent this from happening?

IIRC, the answers to the questions aboves above range from 'not sure' to 'nothing'.

Some consider a possible solution is to de-nationalise(?) the professional player's association to make badminton a fully individual and professional outfit free from the influence of national bodies of their respective nations ie. tennis. When they keep everything post-tax to themselves and depend on it for a living, maybe everybody would fight for a slice of the cake instead of it being handed to them.

But of course, what is ever free from national interests?

Very clear summary for the questions and objectives on hand. But a relevant question left out is what BCers are doing to remedy the problem besides complaining in the forum? One BCer suggested "Civilians are power" and another wanted a petition but not the responsibility. So far none of the proposals show any signs of live, putting the aftermath of such actions further in doubt. For me, I just think it's part of the game and little will be done to change, so why should I lose sleep over it :confused::cool:

Wisnton T is quite a guy..from post 1, he just directs all negative things on INA players...he said he is from China.,.then he said that he has brother and auntie live in Indonesia....I do not mind if he has the facts...how INA fix matches on WC or OG?? we did not have many players to compete for those occasions..

I don't know so sure when exactly BWF rules the limitation entries.
but, at least, Ina have 3 MS in OG 92, and coincident or not,
the final match was ALL INDONESIA FINAL (Alan vs Ardi)
the other player was Hermawan (who beat ZJH)

If you do not have proof...Stop it...you always direct negative things on INA players...hows INA fixed matches in WC or OG?? ...you are always BIAS as always....
Dont accuse INA if you do not have FACTS

I'm waiting for another testimony from Ina coach, just like the gentleman Li Yong Bo, so I can get the facts.

I'm waiting for another testimony from Ina coach, just like the gentleman Li Yong Bo, so I can get the facts.
If you do not have it..Pls DO NOT TALK..............you are anti INA...PERIOD!!!

I don't know so sure when exactly BWF rules the limitation entries.
but, at least, Ina have 3 MS in OG 92, and coincident or not,
the final match was ALL INDONESIA FINAL (Alan vs Ardi)
the other player was Hermawan (who beat ZJH)
They played for GOLD...winner got more awards/money ....there is NO MATCH FIXING...you just like to talk thrash only..........
Coincident??? INA beat CHN players so thats why we had ALL INA FINAL

PLS STOP TALKING NONSENSE!!!

Can we stop all this SHOUTING.

yeah....you should make SHOUTING a bit bigger!!

I don't know so sure when exactly BWF rules the limitation entries.
but, at least, Ina have 3 MS in OG 92, and coincident or not,
the final match was ALL INDONESIA FINAL (Alan vs Ardi)
the other player was Hermawan (who beat ZJH)

Uhhh heheh, what exactly would be the point in fixing the finals?? If there were 3 and 2 of the 3 met only in the final...? :rolleyes: I don't really get what you're trying to point out.

When match fixing takes place, it is we the fans who are "Short changed". We pay to go see the matches to see players deliver their best by giving 100%! When a match is fixed, this does not happen! Players just goes through the "motions". It becomes something like acting!

You paid the ticket, does not mean the coach / players have to share the same feeling as you do. They are doing their job, to keep their job.

Put this way, if you pay for a boxing match, but say there's a KO in round 1. Do you demand to get 90% of $$$ back, as it "suppose" to be 12 rounds? If you pay for a basketball game, and hope to watch Kobe or LBJ for 48 minutes, but somehow, the game becomes a blowout, and the stars only played for 20 minutes. Do you demand 50% refund, as "why I watch all the benches for 2nd half"?

All I saying is, all the fans want the most exciting "match of the history" type of action. However, you have to face the reality sometimes.

juz 2 say...no coach or any nation badminton federation can denied the heart of player 2 win...all players are play for themself n nation name,fame n honour. even u win the finals by fixing the semis...wat the winner get???honour???fame??? nothing...ya...u will b in the title holder list...with a bracet writing:won by game fixing...

who dun knw lin dan 'injured' in the morning of AE 2008 final n lost 2 chen jin juz 2 let chen jin secure 4th place 4 OG(but lindan should heart break cz chenjin injured at SO 1st round...effort waste)...if lcw win chen jin in semis...lin dan will get injured???...nonsense...

chen jin say tat even he doesnt win ld b4 in tournament...but he did in training...so v can consider tat chen yu,bcl r oso can win over lindan but then,they juz kept losing 2 lin dan cz lin dan r so 'superior','unbeaten'...

coach have no right 2 ask player 2 lost...player should try 2 acheive wat they 1...

haiz...

juz 2 say...no coach or any nation badminton federation can denied the heart of player 2 win...all players are play for themself n nation name,fame n honour. even u win the finals by fixing the semis...wat the winner get???honour???fame??? nothing...ya...u will b in the title holder list...with a bracet writing:won by game fixing...

who dun knw lin dan 'injured' in the morning of AE 2008 final n lost 2 chen jin juz 2 let chen jin secure 4th place 4 OG(but lindan should heart break cz chenjin injured at SO 1st round...effort waste)...if lcw win chen jin in semis...lin dan will get injured???...nonsense...

chen jin say tat even he doesnt win ld b4 in tournament...but he did in training...so v can consider tat chen yu,bcl r oso can win over lindan but then,they juz kept losing 2 lin dan cz lin dan r so 'superior','unbeaten'...

coach have no right 2 ask player 2 lost...player should try 2 acheive wat they 1...

haiz...

2, n, u, wat, ya, b, dun, knw, juz, cz, tat, v, r, oso, wat, 1 ...:eek::confused:

haiz, please check your comments for typos before posting it. I'd like to read what you wrote, but too many those shorthand and typos make the job difficult. What's the point to post it if you can't get the idea cross?

2, n, u, wat, ya, b, dun, knw, juz, cz, tat, v, r, oso, wat, 1 ...:eek::confused:

haiz, please check your comments for typos before posting it. I'd like to read what you wrote, but too many those shorthand and typos make the job difficult. What's the point to post it if you can't get the idea cross?
It is like Rap/Hip Hop's style...:D:D..wat u dun understand....:D

It is like Rap/Hip Hop's style...:D:D..wat u dun understand....:D

Yes, it may be the case. But if someone tries to respond to his post, he/she would run into the problems (1) what exactly haiz (limsy) said and (2) learn how to write in the same way back. Neither of them seems to be very enticing :D

Yes, it may be the case. But if someone tries to respond to his post, he/she would run into the problems (1) what exactly haiz (limsy) said and (2) learn how to write in the same way back. Neither of them seems to be very enticing :D
I think Haiz...means..haiya/sigh!;)

A few common question from an identical thread to this one, months ago:

How do you identify the culprits?
How do you deal with the culprits?
Why should they be dealt with?
What can be done to help remedy this 'malaise'?
What kind of law can be enacted to prevent this from happening?

IIRC, the answers to the questions aboves above range from 'not sure' to 'nothing'.

Some consider a possible solution is to de-nationalise(?) the professional player's association to make badminton a fully individual and professional outfit free from the influence of national bodies of their respective nations ie. tennis. When they keep everything post-tax to themselves and depend on it for a living, maybe everybody would fight for a slice of the cake instead of it being handed to them.

But of course, what is ever free from national interests?

That had been done already:rolleyes::rolleyes:
They are called chen hong, zhou mi, wang chen, mia audina, Tony G, candra W., M. Mainaky.
Although they still wear their host country jersey, they are very independent as u have specified above.

I think Haiz...means..haiya/sigh!;)

More guessing game? First shorthand mixed with typos, now the name? What language "haiz" is in anyway :confused: I gave up :D

More guessing game? First shorthand mixed with typos, now the name? What language "haiz" is in anyway :confused:
:D:D........no idea..sir!

juz 2 say...no coach or any nation badminton federation can denied the heart of player 2 win...all players are play for themself n nation name,fame n honour. even u win the finals by fixing the semis...wat the winner get???honour???fame??? nothing...ya...u will b in the title holder list...with a bracet writing:won by game fixing...

who dun knw lin dan 'injured' in the morning of AE 2008 final n lost 2 chen jin juz 2 let chen jin secure 4th place 4 OG(but lindan should heart break cz chenjin injured at SO 1st round...effort waste)...if lcw win chen jin in semis...lin dan will get injured???...nonsense...

chen jin say tat even he doesnt win ld b4 in tournament...but he did in training...so v can consider tat chen yu,bcl r oso can win over lindan but then,they juz kept losing 2 lin dan cz lin dan r so 'superior','unbeaten'...

coach have no right 2 ask player 2 lost...player should try 2 acheive wat they 1...

haiz...u may think lyb is a coach or head coach but i see him as the manager of the china team. He can tell his players to do anything he wishes related to badminton. If u dont like it, quit. There are plenty waiting on deck. This call competition, and what drive chinese players to play harder.

That had been done already:rolleyes::rolleyes:
They are called chen hong, zhou mi, wang chen, mia audina, Tony G, candra W., M. Mainaky.
Although they still wear their host country jersey, they are very independent as u have specified above.
Actually Chen Hong is not 100% though....I have to say that Chen Hong is semi independent...the reason that certain tournaments..he may not be able to participate ...it is still up to China federations to register his name...

Wang Chen and Zhou Mi are part of HKG federation but federation allows their players to keep their prize money as well as sponsorship..eventhough all of their trips are funded by Federations..so I will not call 100% independent yet..

M. mainaky , I assume you mean Marleve? he is a coach for INA WS....or you mean Rexy?

I think only Tony and Candra are 100% pure independent players...Tony and Candra are able to register their names directly to BWF without US/INA intervention....

Actually Chen Hong is not 100% though....I have to say that Chen Hong is semi independent...the reason that certain tournaments..he may not be able to participate ...it is still up to China federations to register his name...

Wang Chen and Zhou Mi are part of HKG federation but federations allows their players to keep their prize money as well as sponsorship..eventhough all of their trips are funded by Federations..so I will not call 100% independent yet..

M. mainaky , I assume you mean Marleve? he is a coach for INA WS....or you mean Rexy?

I think only Tony and Candra are 100% independent players...Tony and Candra are able to register their names directly to BWF without US/INA intervention....
i mean marleve. Whether being a coach or player, there are doing what they wish.

i mean marleve. Whether being a coach or player, there are doing what they wish.
He still has to follow PBSI's rule...I do not think he is 100%....he has to listen to Christian hadinata ( head coach)from time to time..as he is new in coaching...

He still has to follow PBSI's rule...I do not think he is 100%....he has to listen to Christian hadinata ( head coach)from time to time..as he is new in coaching...that is his wishes and that makes him independent.

that is his wishes and that makes him independent.
I think we have to define the word" independent"...IMO..he is not at all.....

I think we have to define the word" independent"...IMO..he is not at all.....so r u saying tiger wood and federer never ever listen to or taken advices from anybody before since they became independent pro?

so r u saying tiger wood and federer never ever listen to or taken advices from anybody before since they became independent pro?
no...listen to advises are different...federer/Woods hires coach and pay their own expenses ...they can decide which sponsor to take...but Marleve dont have 100% authority to decide which players and how many of them they can participate...PBSI has to decide how much budget, etc...

Listen to advises do not make them independent....

no...listen to advises are different...federer/Woods hires coach and pay their expenses teir own...they can decide which sponsor to take...but Marleve dont have 100% authority to decide which players and how many of them they can participate...PBSI has to decide how much budget, etc...

Listen to advises do not make them independent....I thot marleve is coaching in UK

I thot marleve is coaching in UK
No.....He never goes to UK...after retiring from single...he became assistant to Hendrawan ( that time he was in charge in WS) after Hermawan took over from Joko ( MS coach), marleve got promoted to WS coach...

Reony mainaky ( used to coach Japanese club, is being rumoured to take a job as INA coach for juniors.....if he does..then all brothers are coaches...;)

No.....He never goes to UK...after retiring from single...he became assistant to Hendrawan ( that time he was in charge in WS) after Hermawan took over from Joko ( MS coach), marleve got promoted to WS coach...i see. I thot he went to UK to coach which made me thinks he gone independent like other INA exports (Tony G, Candra W., mia audina, rexy,halim, ardy and many INA players and coaches in canada and US)

Reony mainaky ( used to coach Japanese club, is being rumoured to take a job as INA coach for juniors.....if he does..then all brothers are coaches...;)

It is not a rumor. Reony Mainaky is a coach at PB. Ratih in Tangerang, Banten province. Ratih is one of the top 8 clubs in the country. His pupils won the Boy's Doubles title at the 2007 National Championships. :) Reony also still often participates in veteran tournaments around Jakarta. He won 2 veteran championships in a row around January to February 2008. Still alive and kicking, I heard. Still very fit and toned. :)

It is not a rumor. Reony Mainaky is a coach at PB. Ratih in Tangerang, Banten province. Ratih is one of the top 8 clubs in the country. His pupils won the Boy's Doubles title at the 2007 National Championships. :) Reony also still often participates in veteran tournaments around Jakarta. He won 2 veteran championships in a row around January to February 2008. Still alive and kicking, I heard. Still very fit and toned. :)
How about new coach for new recruits? I heard he is one of the nominated coaches for Juniors' Pelatnas?

How about new coach for new recruits? I heard he is one of the nominated coaches for Juniors' Pelatnas?

Ah, that makes sense. If the terms and conditions are right, then he probably will take it.

Oh, regarding the actual topic of this thread. From what I know, match fixing was quite rife during the 1970s and early 1980s in INA. :o :o :o Very sorry to say...

But that pretty much dissapeared [to my knowledge] after the late 1980s... and I have not heard any stories regarding match-fixing within INA badminton during the dominant INA decade between 1992-2004 when we won 5 Thomas Cups in a row, 2 Uber Cups and won quite a few Olympic golds, 2 to 3 INA WS in the top 10, 4 to 8 INA MS in the top 10... no match-fixing then... :cool: The INA National Team was full of very competitive individuals and pairs who were unleashed to compete against each other at all times.

The PBSI management during that time was not pro-match fixing at all... Prominent coaches like Christian Hadinata etc. were very adamantly opposed to match-fixing because he knew how bad it was for him and his peers during the 1970s and 1980s... :o :o :o Today, the current management of Lius, Christian, Hendrawan, Marleve etc. are still very very very against match fixing within INA badminton...

Ah, that makes sense. If the terms and conditions are right, then he probably will take it.

Oh, regarding the actual topic of this thread. From what I know, match fixing was quite rife during the 1970s and early 1980s in INA. :o :o :o Very sorry to say...

But that pretty much dissapeared [to my knowledge] after the late 1980s... and I have not heard any stories regarding match-fixing within INA badminton during the dominant INA decade between 1992-2004 when we won 5 Thomas Cups in a row, 2 Uber Cups and won quite a few Olympic golds, 2 to 3 INA WS in the top 10, 4 to 8 INA MS in the top 10... no match-fixing then... :cool: The INA National Team was full of very competitive individuals and pairs who were unleashed to compete against each other at all times.

The PBSI management during that time was not pro-match fixing at all... Prominent coaches like Christian Hadinata etc. were very adamantly opposed to match-fixing because he knew how bad it was for him and his peers during the 1970s and 1980s... :o :o :o Today, the current management of Lius, Christian, Hendrawan, Marleve etc. are still very very very against match fixing within INA badminton...


Yep..Lius told me the same thing...thats why I have asked them to give some facts.....

Why should "order of match-fixing" drive players to play harder? :confused::confused::confused: I guess CH just showed that it drove him to play less hard. :cool:

u may think lyb is a coach or head coach but i see him as the manager of the china team. He can tell his players to do anything he wishes related to badminton. If u dont like it, quit. There are plenty waiting on deck. This call competition, and what drive chinese players to play harder.

That's so funny... Did I say Indonesia fixing those matches should not be criticized?

u can ask ye333 about Rudi.
WC 1983, ask Sabathiel.

Very creative thinking! :D

Because you are happy today, therefore you should not blame the person who did some bad things which made you unhappy yesterday? :confused:

Btw, I think LD gave the match to XXZ, if you were talking about WC2003.

being unhappy is just a state of mind during certain period of time.
LD was also unhappy too in his early days when he had to fold the match to BCL because of the first game win policy. LD is now a superb player and very happy.
Ye Zhaoying was unhappy too at 2000 OG of suppose to give the match to gong zhichao. She look quite happy now as she was chosen the torch bearer for china.

Olympic torchbearer Ye Zhaoying is introduced at a news conference held by South Korea's Samsung Electronics, a sponsor of the relay, Friday, March 21, 2008, in Beijing, China

ZM and YZY also wanted the gold. Care to explain why they gave up?

CJ & BCL most likely will have to give LD a WO if it turns out that LCW has already entered the final. If the opponent is TH, then BCL may have some chance.

as I said it before, CJ & BCL also wants the gold. no doubt about it.

This is so typical an anti-anti-match-fixing argument.

First, we as people should not stop criticizing just because some bad things cannot be eliminated. Murder cannot be eliminated. But that doesn't mean people should not punish murderers.

Second, I don't think anyone here has the desire to be a "true champion" in badminton, unless LCW or TH or LD owns an ID here. :D To us, badminton is a hobby, not a job.

Finally, some people often say "match-fixing is not illegal, therefore should not be criticized". Since when all bad things are illegal? Are we in Utopia already? :confused:

Like many other threads, I don't think there's any "new juice" left in this topic.

Just as many other "less than ideal" facts / rules / regulations, etc in the world, coaches and players simply have to rely on themselves to over come the issue. The true champion should be physically and mentally ready to face any opponents, any number of sets/matches, and any possible "sudden" situation. In order to do so, s/he needs to train harder and smarter, and be well prepared.

The suspected "match fixing" as well as many other rules / laws, can not be fixed in a short period of time. Do you want to be a true champion, and take the challenge, or simply lying down, giving up, crying and screaming every day, it's really your own choice. :o

This is so typical an anti-anti-match-fixing argument.

First, we as people should not stop criticizing just because some bad things cannot be eliminated. Murder cannot be eliminated. But that doesn't mean people should not punish murderers.

Second, I don't think anyone here has the desire to be a "true champion" in badminton, unless LCW or TH or LD owns an ID here. :D To us, badminton is a hobby, not a job.

Finally, some people often say "match-fixing is not illegal, therefore should not be criticized". Since when all bad things are illegal? Are we in Utopia already? :confused:

+1

It's good to converse with someone who has common sense :)

Good thinking ye333 !

Why should "order of match-fixing" drive players to play harder? :confused::confused::confused: I guess CH just showed that it drove him to play less hard. :cool:i said the reason is competiton, change your 1st gear, we're on page 16 already

Very creative thinking! :D

Because you are happy today, therefore you should not blame the person who did some bad things which made you unhappy yesterday? :confused:

Btw, I think LD gave the match to XXZ, if you were talking about WC2003.
you think or you guess so?

LD lost to bcl because LD already said (ie. a fact) so due to first game policy back then. LD said he's a stronger 3 set player, he doesn't know back then how to play an one game match.

Very creative thinking! :D

Because you are happy today, therefore you should not blame the person who did some bad things which made you unhappy yesterday? :confused:

Btw, I think LD gave the match to XXZ, if you were talking about WC2003.
obviously u dont understand china's/LYB value. It's just as heroic to sacrifice a chance for gold as winning the gold. If zhou mi stuck around, she might had gotten something too (later in life). If u put the old horse zhang ning against klrc supported zhou mi, zhang ning still win IMO. LYB's choices at 00 and 04 OF WS weren't that wrong, he picked the right horse for the final race.

so far, those chineses who quit (by encouragement) the team hoping to become independently successful haven't really pan out nor ask to come back where as for INA players, tony G and mia audina were successful after quitting. LYB and pbsi decision seem 180 degree out of phase.

i have an easy explanation of why INA stop fixing game after late 80's. It's IMO of course. Before 80's, it was patriotic to win as a team but asia economy began to prosper in late 80's, money became the focal point and players become more 'independent thinking' to put it unoffensively. Why would taufik lose games to lesser soni or santoso so the latters get better ranking??? TH and top MD teams would tell pbsi go to h-- if pbsi want to fix their matches. The friction between TH and pbsi is mostly related to... money. If chinese players try to do similar things that TH does to psbi, lyb will personally kick their arses right out the door.

MAL can't fixes matches either since coaching staff can't even get certain players to attend their practices or know where they are..

i have an easy explanation of why INA stop fixing game after late 80's. It's IMO of course. Before 80's, it was patriotic to win as a team but asia economy began to prosper in late 80's, money became the focal point and players become more 'independent thinking' to put it unoffensively. Why would taufik lose games to lesser soni or santoso so the latters get better ranking??? TH and top MD teams would tell pbsi go to h-- if pbsi want to fix their matches. The friction between TH and pbsi is mostly related to... money. If chinese players try to do similar things that TH does to psbi, lyb will personally kick their arses and out the door.

MAL can't fixes matches either since they can't even get certain players to attend their practices..
Thats one of the reason ........correct!
another reason also that INA government does not provide any pension like China if their players stay with the team....so if INA players retire...thats it!! you have no income..all depends on your previous success.....also with contract from Yonex...the higher ranking player will get more money...a bigger portion from others..

Which tournament are you talking about?

I already said, if it is WC2003, then LD gave up after 1st game when facing XXZ. FYI, LD never met BCL in WC2003.

you think or you guess so?

LD lost to bcl because LD already said (ie. a fact) so due to first game policy back then. LD said he's a stronger 3 set player, he doesn't know back then how to play an one game match.

Which tournament are you talking about?

I already said, if it is WC2003, then LD gave up after 1st game when facing XXZ. FYI, LD never met BCL in WC2003.

i didnt say it was wc2003

Of course I understand that value system. What I have always been saying is that I am against that value system. I am sorry if I haven't made that clear.

"If Zhou Mi stuck around"? I suggest you read some posts in chinabadminton one or two years ago. According to them, LYB kicked Zhou Mi out of the national team. Zhou Mi has no such choice as "stuck around".

Yes LYB "picked the right horse", but IMHO, it's a bad thing to "pick" in the first place.

obviously u dont understand china's/LYB value. It's just as heroic to sacrifice a chance for gold as winning the gold. If zhou mi stuck around, she might had gotten something too (later in life). If u put the old horse zhang ning against klrc supported zhou mi, zhang ning still win IMO. LYB's choices at 00 and 04 OF WS weren't that wrong, he picked the right horse for the final race.

so far, those chineses who quit (by encouragement) the team hoping to become independently successful haven't really pan out nor ask to come back where as for INA players, tony G and mia audina were successful after quitting. LYB and pbsi decision seem 180 degree out of phase.

Then which one it is? I am not aware of one LD vs. BCL match which was determined by the 1st game.

i didnt say it was wc2003

Does your "competition" includes willingness to participate match-fixing?

i said the reason is competiton, change your 1st gear, we're on page 16 already

Then which one it is? I am not aware of one LD vs. BCL match which was determined by the 1st game.i read it in bf, i have to find it again. loopy was asking about it too

Of course I understand that value system. What I have always been saying is that I am against that value system. I am sorry if I haven't made that clear.

Then u got conned by IOC and their marketing lol. If u think the olympic is about individual achievemet (with few exception), then ur blind. Almost all olympic athletes are heavily funded by their gov't to get where they are. Athletes are paraded in the opening ceremony by their country. National athem are played in the medal ceremonies.

"If Zhou Mi stuck around"? I suggest you read some posts in chinabadminton one or two years ago. According to them, LYB kicked Zhou Mi out of the national team. Zhou Mi has no such choice as "stuck around".

to get fired, u likely pissed off the boss.
i guess she didnt get severance pay nor pension later on
this is how the real world work too in case u don't know
Yes LYB "picked the right horse", but IMHO, it's a bad thing to "pick" in the first place.
If u hate it, then u should hate the olympic game too because the 'fixing' already started at the host country selection.

...............................

i have an easy explanation of why INA stop fixing game after late 80's. It's IMO of course. Before 80's, it was patriotic to win as a team but asia economy began to prosper in late 80's, money became the focal point and players become more 'independent thinking' to put it unoffensively. Why would taufik lose games to lesser soni or santoso so the latters get better ranking??? TH and top MD teams would tell pbsi go to h-- if pbsi want to fix their matches. The friction between TH and pbsi is mostly related to... money. If chinese players try to do similar things that TH does to psbi, lyb will personally kick their arses right out the door.

MAL can't fixes matches either since coaching staff can't even get certain players to attend their practices or know where they are..

I agree with your post here....indeed....competition is the key. INA players will have to compete for money in the forms of sponsorships, especially in the near future. By losing to your team-mates, it will certainly mean you are inferior to them, thus, less sponsorships, less money and a gloomy future in badminton.

That's why Nova/Butet and Flandy/Vita fought each other till the death, even after knowing that Zheng Bo/Gao Ling got a free pass in the other SF during the HKG Open Semi-Final 2007. Me and Hau-Ge watched that match and the audiences were certainly enthralled too! Lots of applauses during the match and at least, the audiences felt that they got their money worth!

IMHO, match fixing should be severely dealt with... comparing to soccer and other sports, match fixing gets heavy punishment, since badminton is an OLYMPIC sport, i don't see that badminton should get away just like that... its just UNprofessional...

They played for GOLD...winner got more awards/money ....there is NO MATCH FIXING...you just like to talk thrash only..........
Coincident??? INA beat CHN players so thats why we had ALL INA FINAL

PLS STOP TALKING NONSENSE!!!

uuuuhhuuuu... Hau-ge just blew his top! :D

uuuuhhuuuu... Hau-ge just blew his top! :D
Wait til' Pemuda is unleashed on him.

I believe you still remember my posts a few days ago, in which I clearly said OG is a country-based event? :confused:

Read the posts I mentioned. Do some research in www.chinabadminton.com. Zhou Mi was kicked out because LYB thought she was not that useful anymore (context: ZN and XXF were dominating WS). Fact: You don't have to "piss off" your boss to get fired in the real world. As soon as your boss felt his money should be used in other ways than paying you, you are in danger. :D

Then u got conned by IOC and their marketing lol. If u think the olympic is about individual achievemet (with few exception), then ur blind. Almost all olympic athletes are heavily funded by their gov't to get where they are. Athletes are paraded in the opening ceremony by their country. National athem are played in the medal ceremonies.

"If Zhou Mi stuck around"? I suggest you read some posts in chinabadminton one or two years ago. According to them, LYB kicked Zhou Mi out of the national team. Zhou Mi has no such choice as "stuck around".

to get fired, u likely pissed off the boss.
i guess she didnt get severance pay nor pension later on
this is how the real world work too in case u don't know
Yes LYB "picked the right horse", but IMHO, it's a bad thing to "pick" in the first place.
If u hate it, then u should hate the olympic game too because the 'fixing' already started at the host country selection................................

I believe you still remember my posts a few days ago, in which I clearly said OG is a country-based event? :confused:

Read the posts I mentioned. Do some research in www.chinabadminton.com. Zhou Mi was kicked out because LYB thought she was not that useful anymore (context: ZN and XXF were dominating WS). Fact: You don't have to "piss off" your boss to get fired in the real world. As soon as your boss felt his money should be used in other ways than paying you, you are in danger. :D
XXZ, CH aren't useful either but they aren't kicked out.

btw, the chinese words that i can read are, 1, 2, 3:p

Wait til' Pemuda is unleashed on him.
Really? I guess I am so scared now....:(:(

Can we stop all this SHOUTING.

Dude, very simple actually. Why dont you just let them all be if you find the discussion not to your taste. There are so many other threads in this forum. No need to play the policing part la. Why give yourself so much undue stress and all. ;)

let the debate begin!:);)
lets see this thread will last how long..

Dude, very simple actually. Why dont you just let them all be if you find the discussion not to your taste. There are so many other threads in this forum. No need to play the policing part la. Why give yourself so much undue stress and all. ;)
Thats right.........Pemuda.....;);)

let the debate begin!:);)
lets see this thread will last how long..

Don't worry, the thread may go on to OG 08 like the torch, but most of stuffs are just the same old criticism and arguments recycled from all other locked threads. One might ask: where's the beef :confused::D

Don't worry, the thread may go on to OG 08 like the torch, but most of stuffs are just the same old criticism and arguments recycled from all other locked threads. One might ask: where's the beef :confused::D

Well if you can't find 'the beef' at this point one can only assume you wouldn't know the 'beef' if it walked up to you moo'd in your face and dropped a steamer on your foot. I agree it's gotten to the point where it's the same old same old. Yet, you continue to participate contributing the same old same old to the thread.

I'm also going to assume your wisecrack about a person wanting a petition was in reference to me. Firstly I don't think a petition is going have any sway with the governing body. Secondly five minutes of due diligence on these forums would uncover a previous attempt at just that, after the tournament hosted by China.

Well if you can't find 'the beef' at this point one can only assume you wouldn't know the 'beef' if it walked up to you moo'd in your face and dropped a steamer on your foot. I agree it's gotten to the point where it's the same old same old. Yet, you continue to participate contributing the same old same old to the thread.

I'm also going to assume your wisecrack about a person wanting a petition was in reference to me. Firstly I don't think a petition is going have any sway with the governing body. Secondly five minutes of due diligence on these forums would uncover a previous attempt at just that, after the tournament hosted by China.

It's a waste of my time to reply to your comments or bring you up in my comments :cool:

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53331 post #16

Wouldn’t that be funny when the player benefited from the so-called match fixing ended up on the winner podium with a thank you speech started with “It’s not for me but for the whole team, without my team mates clearing out the path and let me thro’ with minimum effort that wouldn’t be possible, thanks again team.”

Wouldn’t that be funny when the player benefited from the so-called match fixing ended up on the winner podium with a thank you speech started with “It’s not for me but for the whole team, without my team mates clearing out the path and let me thro’ with minimum effort that wouldn’t be possible, thanks again team.”i guess this fixing thing isn't a big secret after all. You should give it a try sometime:p

This is so typical an anti-anti-match-fixing argument.

First, we as people should not stop criticizing just because some bad things cannot be eliminated. Murder cannot be eliminated. But that doesn't mean people should not punish murderers.

Second, I don't think anyone here has the desire to be a "true champion" in badminton, unless LCW or TH or LD owns an ID here. :D To us, badminton is a hobby, not a job.

Finally, some people often say "match-fixing is not illegal, therefore should not be criticized". Since when all bad things are illegal? Are we in Utopia already? :confused:


Lol... Great, keep crying and screaming when you can do nothing, and let your "own hero" to living in his/her own utopia of "my failure is not my fault, and it's someone else's problem". Great, give them more excuses, let them day dream more, and that may make the sports a bit better. :o

To overcome a problem is to do something useful from your own end, not by finger pointing. To make opponent's strategy fail is to make it look totally useless under your own superior power, not to start a drama in the new media. :rolleyes:

Now, LYB might be laughing so hard now, you not only can't deal with the fact that he get more medal day after day, but also made him a star by giving him so much free articles. ;)

Remember how Don Nelson reply when Shaq publicly blaming him about invent "hack the shaq" strategy (send him to free throw), "and slow down the game pace and make the games boring"? Don simply said, "to solve the problem is very easy, practice your own free throw, and make it. Then, i will never dare to let all 12 of my players to fault out, and give you 50 free points." Simple??? Got the idea? The solution is to "practice", but not "screaming to media".

At the very end, let me clear some of your blames. I never said the fans "should never say" anything. It's ok that you voice your ideas. However, all I saying is after 2000 threads and 10,000 posts of "juiceless" debates, do you find it interesting? Or, made any posititive contribution to the sports? If you think yes, go ahead and keep flaming everyone. If you think no, find some other good topics and utilize your knowledge.

Lol... Great, keep crying and screaming when you can do nothing, and let your "own hero" to living in his/her own utopia of "my failure is not my fault, and it's someone else's problem". Great, give them more excuses, let them day dream more, and that may make the sports a bit better. :o

To overcome a problem is to do something useful from your own end, not by finger pointing. To make opponent's strategy fail is to make it look totally useless under your own superior power, not to start a drama in the new media. :rolleyes:

Now, LYB might be laughing so hard now, you not only can't deal with the fact that he get more medal day after day, but also made him a star by giving him so much free articles. ;)

Remember how Don Nelson reply when Shaq publicly blaming him about invent "hack the shaq" strategy (send him to free throw), "and slow down the game pace and make the games boring"? Don simply said, "to solve the problem is very easy, practice your own free throw, and make it. Then, i will never dare to let all 12 of my players to fault out, and give you 50 free points." Simple??? Got the idea? The solution is to "practice", but not "screaming to media".

At the very end, let me clear some of your blames. I never said the fans "should never say" anything. It's ok that you voice your ideas. However, all I saying is after 2000 threads and 10,000 posts of "juiceless" debates, do you find it interesting? Or, made any posititive contribution to the sports? If you think yes, go ahead and keep flaming everyone. If you think no, find some other good topics and utilize your knowledge.
Do you find it interesting, after 2000 threads and 10,000 posts of 'juiceless' debates?
LYB may stop laughing should his worst legacy happen.Crowds (outside CHN and its satellites) supporting his players' opponents who are not home players like in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and France in 2007.

Do you find it interesting, after 2000 threads and 10,000 posts of 'juiceless' debates? LYB may stop laughing should his worst legacy happen.Crowds (outside CHN and its satellites) supporting his players' opponents who are not home players like in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and France in 2007.

pjswift, again, you came up with a very creative way to comment, is this another technique of yours to get people to think? Could you please make it a little straight forward? I'd like to comment, but don't want mistake your view :)

The followings are my observations of some of the debates:

1. No one will win an argument without solid facts to back it up. So please making a case when your facts are clear, unless you intend to lose during the debate.
2. Comments with racist view or from habitual offenders, who continue to insult other ppl have no place in BC forum. Mods are taking a tough stand on the issue, and those who don't heel to the warnings have been, are being, and will be banned permanently for sure.
3. The particular debate in this thread about China match-fixing, result-fixing, competition-strategy or match-strategy, which ever way you want to call it, may be true, and most BCers, including me, don't want to see this happening. Everyone has the right to criticize Chn for it. At the same time, I wish my esteemed fellows can offer some hope for a resolution to the problem.

It's my sincere hope that BCers on both sides of the aisle take these into consideration when posting, and please accept my apology for being sarcastic on the issue.

pjswift, again, you came up with a very creative way to comment, is this another technique of yours to get people to think? Could you please make it a little straight forward? I'd like to comment, but don't want mistake your view :)

The followings are my observations of some of the debates:

1. No one will win an argument without solid facts to back it up. So please making a case when your facts are clear, unless you intend to lose during the debate.
2. Comments with racist view or from habitual offenders, who continue to insult other ppl have no place in BC forum. Mods are taking a tough stand on the issue, and those who don't heel to the warnings have been, are being, and will be banned permanently for sure.
3. The particular debate in this thread about China match-fixing, result-fixing, competition-strategy or match-strategy, which ever way you want to call it, may be true, and most BCers, including me, don't want to see this happening. Everyone has the right to criticize Chn for it. At the same time, I wish my esteemed fellows can offer some hope for a resolution to the problem.

It's my sincere hope that BCers on both sides of the aisle take these into consideration when posting, and please accept my apology for being sarcastic on the issue.

Unfortunately you haven't come up with any constructive suggestion.

Unfortunately you haven't come up with any constructive suggestion.

That's why Birdwood prefers a "silent approach" ;)

Unfortunately you haven't come up with any constructive suggestion.

That's why Birdwood prefers a "silent approach" ;)

That's why you don't hear me complaining about Chn practice so much, said one or twice. If I can't find ways to change it, I accept it as "norm" under the circumstances. It does not mean I like it. Actually, I thought sjoe had a very good suggestion before in the thread "Interesting Chinese media article" about ppl should walk out on the matches following WO, unfortunately the thread got locked before he could answer my questions and talk about it in more detail :)

That's why you don't hear me complaining about Chn practice so much, said one or twice. If I can't find ways to change it, I accept it as "norm" under the circumstances. It does not mean I like it. Actually, I thought sjoe had a very good suggestion before in the thread "Interesting Chinese media article" about ppl should walk out on the matches following WO, unfortunately the thread got locked before he could answer my questions and talk about it in more detail :)

We need all your helps, everyone contribute a bit to their capacity. Too me, just discussing it is a start in the right direction and hopefully it will get momentum.
Is not about who is the guilty party (country) but for the sake of the sport that we all love.
Please suggest something that is constructive and realistic.

We need all your helps, everyone contribute a bit to their capacity. Too me, just discussing it is a start in the right direction and hopefully it will get momentum.
Is not about who is the guilty party (country) but for the sake of the sport that we all love.
Please suggest something that is constructive and realistic.

The other reason I don't complain is that it's not my nature to say bad things about baddy players and coaches, whether they play good, bad, real, ... The only time I EVER said anything bad about them was regarding LM-LD accident.

I would think Chn fans within China should be saying or doing something about the problem. I haven't looked at www.chinabadminton.com (http://www.chinabadminton.com) to see what's there, but one possibility would be for those close to Chn to bring this issue up with the government or team officials. I'm willing to do that next time I visit China, but not sure I would be allowed to pass the gates in the first place since I'm nobody :confused::D

I would think Chn fans within China should be saying or doing something about the problem. I haven't looked at www.chinabadminton.com (http://www.chinabadminton.com) to see what's there, but one possibility would be for those close to Chn to bring this issue up with the government or team officials. I'm willing to do that next time I visit China, but not sure I would be allowed to pass the gates in the first place since I'm nobody :confused::D

You are wrong if you think that your are nobody. Chn, Ind, Maly are so successful in the sport is because of their large number of fans that is include you and me. The people in charge of the sport know that very well but because some fans are fanatical beyond the sport itself (eg. patriotic nature) and this give the people who are in charge a wrong idea. People like us who are a hard core fans of the sport can contribute in more educated manner.

You are wrong if you think that your are nobody. Chn, Ind, Maly are so successful in the sport is because of their large number of fans that is include you and me. The people in charge of the sport know that very well but because some fans are fanatical beyond the sport itself (eg. patriotic nature) and this give the people who are in charge a wrong idea. People like us who are a hard core fans of the sport can contribute in more educated manner.

I agree with you on principle and it should be the case. But I also sensed that you were not from China and not familiar with how things are done and run there. If Chn was like Ina, Mas, and some other countries, Chn would not have such a powerful baddy person as LYB. I will stop here since it deals with subjects beyond BC scope.

That's so funny... Did I say Indonesia fixing those matches should not be criticized?

they need facts, so I suggest, ask it to you.

CJ & BCL most likely will have to give LD a WO if it turns out that LCW has already entered the final. If the opponent is TH, then BCL may have some chance.

what make you think that LCW win over his compatriot in OG 08 is not a part of match - fixing?

CJ & BCL most likely will have to give LD a WO if it turns out that LCW has already entered the final. If the opponent is TH, then BCL may have some chance.

if in another SF match, BCL / CJ had already qualify into OG 08 final, when LD's match isn't started yet (just like WC 06), what make you think that LD's match against his compatriot is "fixed" by LYB?

Wouldn’t that be funny when the player benefited from the so-called match fixing ended up on the winner podium with a thank you speech started with “It’s not for me but for the whole team, without my team mates clearing out the path and let me thro’ with minimum effort that wouldn’t be possible, thanks again team.”

ha ha ha! good comment!

Do you find it interesting, after 2000 threads and 10,000 posts of 'juiceless' debates?
LYB may stop laughing should his worst legacy happen.Crowds (outside CHN and its satellites) supporting his players' opponents who are not home players like in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and France in 2007.

At 1st, I tried to raise my hand and try to bring up my ideas. After so many times I see no one care about listening, but keep flaming at each other after every single tournament, I just give up.

Maybe I can zip my mouth, but can't browse through even 1 single page not seeing topics like "LYB xxxx", "LD xxxx", "CHN xxx", "match fix ..." is quite annoying to my standard. :cool:

There is no way to stop match fixing, unless WBF set some rules. But what can they or you can do about it? they will just play a practise match on court, which is the reason why WBF just went mum when W/O occurred than having them playing a boring match on court or letting the crowd booing the match.

Well, any good answers to the questions yet?


How do you identify the culprits?
How do you deal with the culprits?
Why should they be dealt with?
What can be done to help remedy this 'malaise'?
What kind of law can be enacted to prevent this from happening?

Dude, very simple actually. Why dont you just let them all be if you find the discussion not to your taste. There are so many other threads in this forum. No need to play the policing part la. Why give yourself so much undue stress and all. ;)
Aiseh man, didn't know you cared for me that much. I'm embarrassed. :o

Aiseh man, didn't know you cared for me that much. I'm embarrassed. :o

Just dont want you to go crying back to the mods like some 2 year old denied of his lollies each time you find something you cant stomach ;)

Just dont want you to go crying back to the mods like some 2 year old denied of his lollies each time you find something you cant stomach ;)Let's just agree to disagree - you know what I'm talking about - and bury the hatchet before we get both our backsides kicked by the mods. We can continue to sling mud and insults at one another through PM regarding that, but how unsatisfying is that when you can't play the part of 'the wrongly accused' eh? :)

If there is people who is willing to Admit it like LYB.. then its good.. if not.. also good. ;)

China's admission on this kind of result-fixing (I refuse to call it match-fixing :cool:) raises a disturbing question on sports administration... not just in China but also in Indonesia (which admits to previously using it).

Does this mean that the state endorses such manoeuvres?
What happened to the high moral meaning of the word 'sporting'?

If anything, these aren't just bad or unfortunate precedents.
These incidents go against the very grain of our sporting spirit :(

China's admission on this kind of result-fixing (I refuse to call it match-fixing :cool:) raises a disturbing question on sports administration... not just in China but also in Indonesia (which admits to previously using it).

Does this mean that the state endorses such manoeuvres?
What happened to the high moral meaning of the word 'sporting'?

If anything, these aren't just bad or unfortunate precedents.
These incidents go against the very grain of our sporting spirit :(

i agree. it is not fair for the players too, even though the ultimate goal is to bring glory to the country. i hope for each and every player to get to play their best everytime. so the win will be sweeter. :D knowing you have beaten all the rest fair and square. :)

If there is people who is willing to Admit it like LYB.. then its good.. if not.. also good. ;)

it's not good. let us know the true story.:cool:

it's not good. let us know the true story.:cool:

LYB has admitted it :p :p :D that's very true story.. :D

LYB has admitted it :p :p :D that's very true story.. :D

what ants meant, if other people wants to admit it like LYB, its good. but if not, it's good also.
so I'm wait for another testimony:D

Let's just agree to disagree - you know what I'm talking about - and bury the hatchet before we get both our backsides kicked by the mods. We can continue to sling mud and insults at one another through PM regarding that, but how unsatisfying is that when you can't play the part of 'the wrongly accused' eh? :)

Dude, dont be disillusioned. There is no hatchet to bury. I am just telling you to get down from that playhorse of yours. This is a forum, and should you find the viewpoints of others not to your liking, just ignore la. Dont act like some motherhen.

Dude, dont be disillusioned. There is no hatchet to bury. I am just telling you to get down from that playhorse of yours. This is a forum, and should you find the viewpoints of others not to your liking, just ignore la. Dont act like some motherhen.
That's ironic coming from you considering how people don't have problems with opposing ideas but how rude you are to those who disagree. Classic pot calling kettle black scenario.

wilfredlgf and Pemuda seem determined to further this private argument.
To help them find another place for these exchanges, they are banned for a day ;)

wilfredlgf and Pemuda seem determined to further this private argument.
To help them find another place for these exchanges, they are banned for a day ;)
nice move, oldhand:)
lets have peace;)
but pls dont ban me:):p:p:D:mad:;):(

:D:D........no idea..sir!

i say sorry for my shortform writing...those are not hip hop,just some style of nowdays teenagers use for writing...and,i am male...

haiz is kind of sigh,is hard to say what language it's...can i say that this "haiz' is singlish(singaporian english) or manglish(malaysian english)???:rolleyes:

Be careful what you said..Winston.....you do not have proof....you are really anti INA as always.....


Oh, regarding the actual topic of this thread. From what I know, match fixing was quite rife during the 1970s and early 1980s in INA. :o :o :o Very sorry to say...


Yep..Lius told me the same thing...thats why I have asked them to give some facts.....

as I told you before, I need some testimony, so we can know the truth.
here comes Krisna to prove my word.
if I post something with relevant facts, is it anti certain country?

Hallo, badminton lovers....
This is my first post as an new member of BC, after being silent participant since All England 2007. Very interesting discussion forum, I may say, and I learn a lot.
I'll be in Beijing on August, to witness five gold medallists in badminton, and, hopefully, to see other BC-ers there.
Found this news on AFP today, wish no one post this in other thread before, or Master Kwun will be banned me, ironically, just when I start....

Happy reading...

copadh


Olympics: China admits match fixing in Olympic badminton
BEIJING, March 22, 2008 (AFP) - China’s badminton head coach has admitted ordering a player to throw a crucial tie at the 2004 Olympic Games. Coach Li Yongbo told China Central Television’s sports channel that the 2004 Athens Olympics semi-final was fixed to improve China’s chances of winning a gold medal.
Two Chinese players, Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning, were drawn together in the semi-final tie. After watching Zhang win the first game, the coaching staff decided that she would have a better shot at winning the final against a non-Chinese opponent rather than Zhou.
"After the first game, Zhang looked in better all round shape," Li was quoted as saying in a report on the interview by Sina.Com, a popular website. "So we told Zhou Mi not to work too hard and let Zhang into the final."
Li said he and the Chinese team had nothing to be ashamed of. "It shows our patriotism and in fact I am proud of it." Zhang won the gold as planned and is expected to defend her Olympic title at the Beijing Games here in August. For her part, Zhou quit the Chinese team and went to Hong Kong. She is currently hoping to qualify to represent the territory in badminton at the Beijing Olympics.
Li’s admission revived long-standing concern about behind-the-scenes arrangements at top international table tennis and badminton events by Chinese teams. The practice first surfaced in 1987, when He Zhili ignored an order to throw a semi-final to teammate Guan Jianhua at the 1987 world table tennis championships. She went on to win the final, but was left out of the 1988 Seoul Olympic team as punishment.
In badminton, suspicions are still rife about Wang Dan’s (should be Lin Dan, I suppose...-copadh) defeat to teammate Chen Jin in the recent all-England final, with some experts suggesting that Wang threw the game.
cw/cc Oly-2008-CHN-badminton AFP


his first ever post.
suspect for match - fixing in China team.
but I never said he is anti - China.

his first ever post.
suspect for match - fixing in China team.
but I never said he is anti - China.
He did not write it.....thats from news ......

He write it or not, it doesn't matter.
I always avoid personal attack.

He write it or not, it doesn't matter.
I always avoid personal attack.
Good..then dont attack us and INA players..pls..pls..just enjoy badminton...you have to change the way you psot and comments ;)

Better methods for personal exchanges ------->>>> email, phone, PM, etc ;)

China's admission on this kind of result-fixing (I refuse to call it match-fixing :cool:) raises a disturbing question on sports administration... not just in China but also in Indonesia (which admits to previously using it).

Does this mean that the state endorses such manoeuvres?
What happened to the high moral meaning of the word 'sporting'?

If anything, these aren't just bad or unfortunate precedents.
These incidents go against the very grain of our sporting spirit :(

i agree. it is not fair for the players too, even though the ultimate goal is to bring glory to the country. i hope for each and every player to get to play their best everytime. so the win will be sweeter. :D knowing you have beaten all the rest fair and square. :)

no sportsmanship also for TEAM ORDER!
someone was not allowed to participate in ABC 08, so his team mates can take over his position as MS1 for the upcoming TC 08.

Indarti Issolina/Vita Marissa (dunno them very well) were s'pposedly asked to lose their match agst Etty Tantri/Cynthia s'pposedly to allow the latter to gain more pts and be seeded at Sydney. That was during the 2000 Indonesian Open and IBF even asked PBSI to carry out an investigation (what's it come to?). Source was the JKT Post.

3 reasons why they (all of the countries) fixed the match:
1. to win the gold (the most important thing)
2. their player can qualify into OG, WC, BWF Final SS
3. their player can be seeded in OG & WC

in this case,
I'm sure PBSI haven't target their WD squad to win gold in Sydney.
but, they still "fixed" the WD match.
how could we know that PBSI didn't "fixed" the other match that are potential to get the gold?

no sportsmanship also for TEAM ORDER!
someone was not allowed to participate in ABC 08, so his team mates can take over his position as MS1 for the upcoming TC 08.

So, why don't you tell us who this 'someone' is? :rolleyes:
What's the need for all this paint and camouflage?

So, why don't you tell us who this 'someone' is? :rolleyes:
What's the need for all this paint and camouflage?
He means that TH will not go to ABC and Sony will paritcipate so Sony can be number 1 for TC....I reported that before....talking about sportmanship.....cough..cough...

I'll try to avoid controversy

Try not bring the controversial topic back. Other countries might still have a few instances in their approaches as being honestly mentioned by BCers, but the problems are very minor, and naturally as the result of team competition strategy. Comparing to other countries, Chn is the worst with too many WO and over-doing it. Chn needs to improve as well as other countries based on their individual conduct. I wish Chn as a dominant baddy force would hold herself impeccably. To that end, Chn still has long way to go. I don't see anything to argue about. Let's help Chn find ways to improve, instead of pointing fingers. Blaming game will not help anyone or baddy as a sports.

Guys please make sure you are adding to the discussion when posting, not simply hitting one line baiting posts.

Mon May 12, 2:42 AM ET

South Korea admitted it threw its Thomas Cup match against England on Monday as the elite badminton tournament plunged into controversy.

The Koreans, who have emerged as a powerful force in men's badminton, lost 4-1 after fielding a weakened team, with Asian champion Park Sung-Hwan and Korean Open winner Lee Hyun-Il playing doubles together instead of singles.

Team manager Kim Jong-Soo said their tactics were to avoid winning their group to ensure a more favourable quarter-final draw.

"We formulated a strategy before we arrived where we want to meet Denmark in the quarter-finals, and that means not finishing top of the group," he said.

"The Badminton World Federation (BWF) created these rules, but I'd much prefer having the two top automatically qualify for the quarter-finals."

The Thomas and Uber Cup tournaments are structured so that the top finisher in each three-team group receive a bye to the quarter-finals, while the other two play an elimination game to make the last eight.

If Korea finish top of their group they face the prospect of meeting defending champions China in the semi-finals. Finishing second or third and playing the elimination game ensures an easier route to the final.

Netherlands head coach Martijn van Dooremalen said the system was to blame.

"I don't think it is in the spirit of the game but the way the system is, you can use tactics to come second or third and avoid the bigger name teams," he said.

"It's a shame the championships have to be played like this."

The BWF were not immediately available for comment.

The controversy overshadowed Japan racing to a 5-0 Thomas Cup victory over New Zealand.

...put this article in the 2008 TC & UC sub-forum (more related)??:confused:..i know you wanted to somewhat compare/relate this news to the thread's title/topic...;)

...put this article in the 2008 TC & UC sub-forum (more related)??:confused:..i know you wanted to somewhat compare/relate this news to the thread's title/topic...;)
Yes. Due to BWF's tournament draw/qualifying rules, fixing is inevitable.

Like I mentioned in another thread, we as fans think differently than what coaches and players think. We love this sport as a hobby, but their job or even entire career is on the line. It's always easy when you do it for fun, but when it ties with your career, you can't be "cool" all the time.

To me, it's like any cases of requiring services. Yes, we did paid, and hopefully every service personnel is honest, knowledgeable, willing to smile and willing to work extra hours to resolve problems for us. The reality is usually the other way. You can win whatever debate championship by "in theory", "in spirit", "be fair", etc. The reality is "easy to say, hard to do". Next time, before we crying, screaming, cursing, just think about what you will do, if you are in the other shoes. If you still think you can 100% keep your honor, well, great, let me know your phone number... :D

Like I mentioned in another thread, we as fans think differently than what coaches and players think. We love this sport as a hobby, but their job or even entire career is on the line. It's always easy when you do it for fun, but when it ties with your career, you can't be "cool" all the time.

To me, it's like any cases of requiring services. Yes, we did paid, and hopefully every service personnel is honest, knowledgeable, willing to smile and willing to work extra hours to resolve problems for us. The reality is usually the other way. You can win whatever debate championship by "in theory", "in spirit", "be fair", etc. The reality is "easy to say, hard to do". Next time, before we crying, screaming, cursing, just think about what you will do, if you are in the other shoes. If you still think you can 100% keep your honor, well, great, let me know your phone number... :D

Agree with this one.Match fixing is a killjoy of any sport.
When fans do not enjoy the sport,tell me how they(coaches/players/Bwf officers etc etc) will survive.U'll lose ur job anyway.So,just play the game and if u win,congrats.If u lost,try next time.
The system is quite simple.Sport means unite.Why this match-fixing mess?

In this Thomas Cup,Malaysia has made me proud enough to be apart of them
They might not gonna make to final(china in semis),but our whole journey of thomas cup is what we called sport.Im happy my motherland uphold the true principle.

No 'strategies',no 'attacking',no 'shocked defeat'.Just a lineup with a feeling to win in every game.

Agree with this one.Match fixing is a killjoy of any sport.
When fans do not enjoy the sport,tell me how they(coaches/players/Bwf officers etc etc) will survive.U'll lose ur job anyway.So,just play the game and if u win,congrats.If u lost,try next time.
The system is quite simple.Sport means unite.Why this match-fixing mess?

In this Thomas Cup,Malaysia has made me proud enough to be apart of them
They might not gonna make to final(china in semis),but our whole journey of thomas cup is what we called sport.Im happy my motherland uphold the true principle.

No 'strategies',no 'attacking',no 'shocked defeat'.Just a lineup with a feeling to win in every game.

Errr ... we only beat England and a 'revised' Korea so far. The real TC will start at the semi final stage.

Come on now Pemuda.U know what i mean.
Win without pride dont worth fans support.

Our countdown with china will only start tommorow.
And believe me,they already have my salute.my respect.
No matter what happen tomorrow.

My kkk played his role extremely good.Thats good enough for me.
Whatever happen,be it.

Btw,DO CHEER FOR OUR SQUAD.Uber team and Tc team.They deserved that.

They might do it again in OG.

The fact that LYB admitted game faixing in public tells me its a common practice everywhere and there is no big deal about it. Or LYB has taken over BWF that he could do anything he wanted to and noone could do anything about it. If this is indeed part of the sports, then we all dumb viewers should just switch the channel when badminton is showing on TV and do something else more meaningful.

They might do it again in OG.

They can do it for the next 50 years, if they have the luxury to do so.

Remember, the sequence of event is: you have multiple players good enough to get into later round BEFORE you can even have the chance to fix anything.

You have to be good enough to bent the rule, not bentting the rule can make a joe doe become superman. :p

LYB was ahead of his time.
If fixing is not fair, how about ex-pro players and coaches playing/coaching and winning medals and titles for ANOTHER country?? Is that fair? This is even bigger fixing than LYB because those countries who have NO chance of winning but now can.
In LYB's case, all his candidates have excellent chance of winnning.
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Tuesday, June 10, 2008

Controversy?: Canadian Men's Olympic Triathlon Team
Here is an interesting article about the recent Canadian Olympic Triathlon Team selections. There seems to be some infighting but hopefully everyone steps up and achieves the common goal of winning in Beijing.

I think that both Simon and Paul can bring home medals at Beijing. Paul should not take a back seat role. He can go for a top 3 and still "help out" Simon. In fact, they can help each other out since they both need to be in that front pack of the swim, bike, and then its every man for themselves come that final run.


Tichelaar not tickled by role
Edmonton athlete asked by Triathlon Canada to focus efforts on getting Simon Whitfield on podium in Beijing

Gary Kingston
Vancouver Sun; Canwest News Service
Tuesday, June 10, 2008

VANCOUVER - There were bound to be happy athletes and some unhappy ones when Triathlon Canada named its men's team for the Beijing Olympics.

Paul Tichelaar of Edmonton found himself in both camps.

The contentious selection process was left to a five-person high-performance committee late Sunday after neither Tichelaar, nor Kyle Jones of Oakville, Ont., were able to secure an automatic berth behind the already-qualified Simon Whitfield with a top-eight finish at the ITU world championship in Vancouver earlier in the day.

The fast-improving Tichelaar came closest with a stirring ninth-place finish. But his relief at being named to the squad was tempered with some bitterness when he was informed that both he and third member Colin Jenkins of Hamilton, Ont., would be expected to focus their efforts on helping Whitfield -- the 2000 Olympic champion -- make the medal podium.

Tichelaar's role wasn't articulated during a media conference call Monday morning with the athletes and Triathlon Canada executives. But Tichelaar confirmed in a later interview that the federation wants him to work on team tactics.

"What kind of reasonable decision is that?" said the blunt Tichelaar, who with three top-eights on the World Cup circuit this season and his strong effort Sunday could well be a medal contender himself.

"There was a little unbelief, well maybe not unbelief because I was kind of expecting something like this from this group of people," he added.

"It took the wind out of my sails. Here was something I should have been celebrating and I'm a little ambivalent now. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole situation," added Tichelaar, who said he wanted to take a couple of days to ponder his position "before I really open my mouth."
He certainly isn't shy about doing that. Last week, he directed pointed comments towards Triathlon Canada for the way the qualifying standard was toughened and at Whitfield for being a "big dog" who needs to "get his bone."

Whitfield said Tichelaar was being disrespectful and petty. On the conference call, they tried to make nice and Tichelaar said he believes they can "sort out" any disagreements. But he's clearly not fully onboard.

Many believe the qualifying standard was toughened to ensure team selection would be turned over to the high-performance committee and result in Jenkins, who was being openly campaigned for by Whitfield, being added at the expense of higher-ranked teammates Jones and Brent McMahon of Victoria.

National team head coach Joel Filliol, who was on the high-performance committee, said the standard represented what it would take to win an (Olympic medal) and Tichelaar didn't achieve that.
On the conference call, both Filliol and Whitfield reiterated that with team tactics coming more and more into play -- and national team funding based in part on winning medals -- it's essential to use a team concept in Beijing.

"I can't say enough about the tremendous effort Triathlon Canada put into this," said Whitfield. "It's cutting edge. I bumped into one of the Australian coaches (Monday morning) and he said 'you guys are smart' and nodded. It's a tribute to the fact we've thought this through.
"We're putting together a team that's about medal contention. The pressure's on me. We set this team up, now I have to go and perform."

The idea is that Tichelaar and, in particular, Jenkins -- who is an excellent swimmer and strong on the bike -- can help Whitfield if he comes out behind the lead pack in the swim. Or, they could cover breakaways by strong cyclists during the 40-kilometre bike leg.

McMahon, a 2004 Olympian who was 17th on Sunday, said he was the victim of politics and would have had to do something "miraculous" to change what he believed were the already made-up minds of the high-performance committee.

He also said he believes it would be better to have three athletes strong in all disciplines working together at Beijing, and he questioned whether Jenkins can do much to affect things.
"At the end of the day, Simon has to be ready to win on his own. If he's not in a position to win, it doesn't matter what Colin or Paul do."

Meanwhile, a decision on the selection of the women's team for Beijing has been delayed, likely to give the high-performance committee time to collect more information on the left heel injury suffered a week ago by Victoria teenager Kirsten Sweetland.

Vancouver's Lauren Groves has pre-qualified for Beijing. Those in the running for the final two spots are Sweetland, Edmonton's Carolyn Murray and Montreal's Kathy Tremblay.

Also this one:

Whitfield to get help in triathlon medal bid
JAMES CHRISTIE
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

The pressure of winning a triathlon medal at the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics sits on the shoulders of Simon Whitfield, and the gold medalist at the 2000 Games appreciates that's where it belongs after Triathlon Canada put a “helper” in the Olympic field to boost him toward the podium.

“This is about winning medals,” Whitfield said in a teleconference yesterday in which his ticket to Beijing was confirmed, along with those of Paul Tichelaar of Edmonton and Colin Jenkins of Hamilton.

Jenkins's specific role is not to compete for a medal for Canada, but to sacrifice himself as a domestique in a team-racing strategy, setting up Whitfield, 33, for a run at the medals.

The nomination of Jenkins for the team over Brent McMahon of Victoria – whose 17th place finish in the world championships got Canada's men a third spot in Beijing – has invited criticism.
However, McMahon said last night he will not appeal Triathlon Canada's picks.

“They've been pushing this way of racing for the past year and we knew going in you'd have to be in the top eight at the worlds to be automatically selected,” he said of Jenkins's selection. “I just hope Paul gets to run his own race, because he's shown he's a contender.”

Tichelaar had said last week that Triathlon Canada was plainly building around Whitfield's potential as “the big dog” in the pack. “And he's getting his bone.”

Yesterday, in the wake of a ninth-place finish at the worlds, Tichelaar said he was happy the selection ordeal was over and believed the three teammates would train together harmoniously. “We're balancing some of the top athletes in the sport with some fair-sized egos. We held it pretty much together.”

Whitfield said taking heat is an inevitable consequence of realism. With a level of confidence bordering on audacity, he reckoned he's Canada's main medal threat and is glad that Triathlon Canada gave one of the three spots to an athlete who accepts the role of setup man in the swimming and cycling portions of the triathlon.

“I can't say enough about the cutting edge Triathlon Canada is trying to put in,” Whitfield said. “I just passed one of the Australian coaches and he said he wished they were as smart as we are.
“At the end of the day, the pressure falls on my shoulders. … The Canadian sports system is funded based on winning medals, not on just participating. When Triathlon Canada tries to put together a team with that goal, we're bound to take a little criticism. But they're walking the walk after having talked the talk.”

Jenkins, who finished 55th in the world championships, is a strong swimmer and cyclist and knows his role is to put Whitfield in a position to challenge Spain's world champion, Javier Gomez, who has been on the podium the past 16 times he has raced.

“When the criteria came out, I talked to [Olympic coach] Joel Filliol, and we decided my best chance to make the team would be to show myself as a team racer, and over the last 12 months I've tried to perfect that role,” Jenkins said. “I have no pipe dream I would be on top of the podium in Beijing. It isn't about me. … I'm going to Beijing to try and help Simon win. That's my role and I've been fine with that for the past 12 to 18 months.”

Whitfield said he felt for McMahon, the Pan American Games silver medalist who had been his teammate in Athens. “He had an extraordinary [world championship] and he should be proud of that. … But with all respect, he had four chances to make the team and this was his fourth chance.”

Jenkins won the pot in a poker game he didn't relish. In order to be selected, he said, he knew he had to rely on McMahon securing Canada a third spot for Beijing.

“It's a hard position to be in,” he said. “I knew people's emotions would get high and some would be upset.”

He said he will work hard on swimming and biking at the expense of his running.

At the next World Cup, in Des Moines, Iowa, he and Whitfield will have one more chance to practise their teamwork, with Jenkins jockeying Whitfield to the front of the swim pack, then leading him in cycling so that he saves energy by drafting.

“The chances of winning change by small percentages,” Whitfield said. “We have to put every advantage forward we can.”

He said the French, Australians, Swiss and possibly the Russians will race using team strategies in Beijing as well.

Two entirely different sports, I don't see why you have to dig this old-thread up again. Triathlon is more similar to biking and running, where the team strategy has been used widely. I really don't see any problem with it being used in Triathlon.

Two entirely different sports, I don't see why you have to dig this old-thread up again. Triathlon is more similar to biking and running, where the team strategy has been used widely. I really don't see any problem with it being used in Triathlon.

Let me make this clearer for you, you see, badminton is a team sport. All players under LYB belong to the CHINA NATIONAL BADMINTON TEAM. If players don't like the team concept, they can quit, and some have. So, what was your beef again:confused::rolleyes:

Let me make this clearer for you, you see, badminton is a team sport. All players under LYB belong to the CHINA NATIONAL BADMINTON TEAM. If players don't like the team concept, they can quit, and some have. So, what was your beef again:confused::rolleyes:

well said cooler, respect

becuz in badminton you can go play somewhere else just like that*, not like in football for example

*fingersnapping

practically all badminton countries are orgainized into provincial, national teams, Denmark, INA, MAL, china, Korea, HK, US, Canada, and likely poland & germany as well too. Only weaker badminton country like peru, italy, guatemala, etc where they dont have enough players to form a team so each player represent themself. I believe any team manager or coach will do or 'fix' what is neccessary to increase chance of medalling beside doping or other illegal stuffs. They will arrange players in a way to maximize podium chance. Any coach/manager who's too holy than thou on this matter will be booted out by their gov't and countrymen in no time.

practically all badminton countries are orgainized into provincial, national teams, Denmark, INA, MAL, china, Korea, HK, US, Canada, and likely poland & germany as well too. Only weaker badminton country like peru, italy, guatemala, etc where they dont have enough players to form a team so each player represent themself. I believe any team manager or coach will do or 'fix' what is neccessary to increase chance of medalling beside doping or other illegal stuffs. They will arrange players in a way to maximize podium chance. Any coach/manager who's too holy than thou on this matter will be booted out by their gov't and countrymen in no time.
i agree with you that the CHN team treat badminton and indeed many other sports as team event, no problem with that. may be CJ let an easy path to LD, so what? did he even has a chance at all? with the same system, CJ should and will benefit from it in future.
as with any other team manager will do the same, i'm not so sure. if the two ENG XD meet in the semi of quarter final i'm sure they will fight to their last breath, just my guts feeling.

Two entirely different sports, I don't see why you have to dig this old-thread up again. Triathlon is more similar to biking and running, where the team strategy has been used widely. I really don't see any problem with it being used in Triathlon.


I don't see too much difference.

Both are given INDIVIDUAL medals to players, therefore, in theory, you can say they are all "individual events". However, by using whatever method, both cases showing a player can "play within the rule" to help his teammate to have better chance to win a medal for the TEAM.

practically all badminton countries are orgainized into provincial, national teams, Denmark, INA, MAL, china, Korea, HK, US, Canada, and likely poland & germany as well too. Only weaker badminton country like peru, italy, guatemala, etc where they dont have enough players to form a team so each player represent themself. I believe any team manager or coach will do or 'fix' what is neccessary to increase chance of medalling beside doping or other illegal stuffs. They will arrange players in a way to maximize podium chance. Any coach/manager who's too holy than thou on this matter will be booted out by their gov't and countrymen in no time.

Nations like CHN have a well established program usually offers free training, free boarding, free traveling, and even salary (when u reach certain level) for it's players. Therefore, it's a steady career choice, especially attractive for kids from not-rich families. Imagine you can be in the national team, making decent salary, even become a star, when you are 16? However, once you agree to join the team, and enjoyed all the benefit, you should know you may need to give up something when its the time. That's call the duty, just like any type of contract.

Many other nations (mostly western ones) don't have a established program for badminton. Therefore, the players need to hire their own coach, pay for their own trips, etc. If one day, they become very successful, my full respect, and they have every right to "fight for myself". They simply start by themselves, and once the harvest season comes, it's all yours.

To me, two totally different systems. You can't say, let me get the best of both: team paying everything (even though 99% of the initial investment going to be nothing, as you paying thousands of kid, but only a few can be champion later), and give you a career. When it's time to harvest, hey, human rights, all me, me and me.

Just think about as an investment. If you decide to invest by your own, if you gain profit, that's all yours. If you decide to borrow a loan to start, can you say, hey I keep all the profit, the bank takes all the risk? :rolleyes:

as with any other team manager will do the same, i'm not so sure. if the two ENG XD meet in the semi of quarter final i'm sure they will fight to their last breath, just my guts feeling.

your above scenario is just an assumption, a dream of that even to happen first. If the ENG XD team, or any EU teams that are not winning titles or medal even when they all reached QF or SF., their managment / coach will be asking why they have been so.....naive:confused::rolleyes: Then i'm sure something will click in their head. The reason other national 'teams' are not fixing is, as LB said b4, they didn't have the LUXURIES to be in that position, yet

read the triathlon article, team strategy wasn't use before BUT NOT ANYMORE.

as with any other team manager will do the same, i'm not so sure. if the two ENG XD meet in the semi of quarter final i'm sure they will fight to their last breath, just my guts feeling.

Absolutely they would do, but for a very good reason. British athletes are funded individually, so although they train together, they are paid the same relative to their performances over the past umber of years. If they win a tournament it could put them on a different level of funding. Also ENG athletes get to keep prize money, so there is no way someone is going to give way for that reason.

CHN team are a team in every sense of the word. They are on contracts decided by their coaches, not results. They don't get to keep all the prize money, so this changes this as well.

your above scenario is just an assumption, a dream of that even to happen first.

The XD teams did of course reach the final and played each other in 2006 (when MD also reached Final...and got blown away by Cai/Fu:mad:)

i see no problem with the triathalon race.. the same players are within the same team in the same race.. while in badminton.. each one is playing their own game.. for the same medals..

the same team tactics within the triathalon is widely used in.. biking, running, marathons.. racing.. especially nascar.. motorcycling.. to put it in short.. this is VERY common.. and if you're own team doesnt do this, someone else will and you will be at a disadvantage..

if anyone had watched the triatholon.. you would've noticed that the other countries' contenders in both swimming and biking section had used team tactics to up the pace for each other.. especially biking section

Absolutely they would do, but for a very good reason. British athletes are funded individually, so although they train together, they are paid the same relative to their performances over the past umber of years. If they win a tournament it could put them on a different level of funding. Also ENG athletes get to keep prize money, so there is no way someone is going to give way for that reason.

CHN team are a team in every sense of the word. They are on contracts decided by their coaches, not results. They don't get to keep all the prize money, so this changes this as well.

The XD teams did of course reach the final and played each other in 2006 (when MD also reached Final...and got blown away by Cai/Fu:mad:)
While both strategies have their plus and minus, each strategy has their own unique application and is largely guided by the objective of the mission. This whole dynamic is widely practiced in the business and political world and therefore, why not in sports. If the objective is driven purely on individualistic goal, then head on competition is the way to go. However, if the goal is greater what can be achieved by individual, head on competition is not the way to go. In the OG, a country can choose between individual or team goal. For china, national medal count supercede individual reward. In your XD example, if both UK pairs clashed and neither team able to achieve even a bronze, national goal failed but individual goal achieved. I dont know their ranking but lets assign some ranking to make my point. if UK team A is ranked #5 and team B is ranked #6. If both go head to head all out, team A wins and team B lost as expected, team A retain better funding status while team B get less funding money (ie, status quo) but team A eventually lost to korea team who ranked #3 or #4, as expected. However, if there is a prize only for #1, #2, #3 podium winners, then team strategy is better. If team B let team A win easily to conserve energy, team A has a much better chance of beating the korean team ranked #4. Team A could win a bronze/ 3rd prize, or even silver/2nd prize. UK badmiton status would get raised, team A share prize $ with team B, and their funding status remain unchange (or even get boosted because the overall UK badminton profile would get a boost too).

if u read this article http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=963073&postcount=129 you will understand my point further. Of course, this example is pushed to the extreme by the western standard but the majority chinese considered a great success and don't understand why all the fuss.