Just watched Swiss Final again. The statistical result is interesting.

Unforced errors are defined as errors made when the player is in good balance and has enough time.

G1: 13:21.
LCW: 11--12 unforced errors at 0:0 (? -- hard to say unforced or not) ,0:1,0:2,1:5,1:7,1:8,2:10,3:11,6:13,7:16,7:17,9:18 ;
LD: 4 unforced errors at 6:16, 8:18,9:19,10:19.

G2: 18:21.
LCW: 8--10 unforced errors at
1:3, 10:6, 10:8, 10:9, 10:10(?), 11:13, 13:14, 13:15, 17:18(?), 18:20.
LD: 8 unforced errors at
1:4, 3:5, 8:6, 10:12, 12:14, 14:16, 15:16, 16:16.

Conclusion: LD is mentally stronger, but towards the end of every game he will be a bit nervous.

base on your so call statistical trend analysis, LD will lose the 3rd set
and will lose badly on the 4th set, and lcw will totally own LD on the 5th set LOL

so in conclusion, cooler can beat LD on the 17th set if xxf let LD play with cooler all day long. LOL

base on your so call statistical trend analysis, LD will lose the 3rd set
and will lose badly on the 4th set, and lcw will totally own LD on the 5th set LOL

so in conclusion, cooler can beat LD on the 17th set if xxf let LD play with cooler all day long. LOL

Aha, but we haven't gone through YOUR unforced error chart yet. Your pattern may be worse than LD's :D:D, meaning XXF won't actually have to let LD deal with you that long ;);):D:D

Aha, but we haven't gone through YOUR unforced error chart yet. Your pattern may be worse than LD's :D:D, meaning XXF won't actually have to let LD deal with you that long ;);):D:D

u r not looking at this logically;):p
will elaborate when i get home.

Just watched Swiss Final again. The statistical result is interesting.

Unforced errors are defined as errors made when the player is in good balance and has enough time.

G1: 13:21.
LCW: 11--12 unforced errors at 0:0 (? -- hard to say unforced or not) ,0:1,0:2,1:5,1:7,1:8,2:10,3:11,6:13,7:16,7:17,9:18 ;
LD: 4 unforced errors at 6:16, 8:18,9:19,10:19.

G2: 18:21.
LCW: 8--10 unforced errors at
1:3, 10:6, 10:8, 10:9, 10:10(?), 11:13, 13:14, 13:15, 17:18(?), 18:20.
LD: 8 unforced errors at
1:4, 3:5, 8:6, 10:12, 12:14, 14:16, 15:16, 16:16.

Conclusion: LD is mentally stronger, but towards the end of every game he will be a bit nervous.

Have you also invested the time to look at other players' unforced errors in each match as well? :rolleyes: Someone can probably count all the unforced errors that Wacha made against LCW in the Swiss semi, and say that LCW didn't really won the match by being technically better, but mentally stronger than Wacha...

When I play against a better player(than myself), I make a lot of forced and unforced errors, too... but do I go tell him that I lost to him because he is mentally stronger than I am? Hell... No...:rolleyes:

Just watched Swiss Final again. The statistical result is interesting.

Unforced errors are defined as errors made when the player is in good balance and has enough time.



.
Even though "unforced errors" are defined as errors made when the player is in good balance and has enough time, we often find players trying to play "riskier shots", like trying to smash closer to the sidelines, or trying to play tighter net-play, etc, etc......

Therefore, statistical results do not always tell the whole story about a match. :p:p:p
.

Have you also invested the time to look at other players' unforced errors in each match as well? :rolleyes: Someone can probably count all the unforced errors that Wacha made against LCW in the Swiss semi, and say that LCW didn't really won the match by being technically better, but mentally stronger than Wacha...

When I play against a better player(than myself), I make a lot of forced and unforced errors, too... but do I go tell him that I lost to him because he is mentally stronger than I am? Hell... No...:rolleyes:

Wacha FTW!!!!! :D

That's actually my point. If one player is in good balance and has enough time, yet choose to play risky shots which most of the time lead to him/her losing the point, he should change his shot-choice in the future.

My interpretion is that LCW wanted to win too much and chose wrong shots in many cases. And this is the reason why LD won so comfortably. Just look at my statistics, LD made his first unforced error when he has almost won the first game. That's a sign of confidence and maturity.

.
Even though "unforced errors" are defined as errors made when the player is in good balance and has enough time, we often find players trying to play "riskier shots", like trying to smash closer to the sidelines, or trying to play tighter net-play, etc, etc......

Therefore, statistical results do not always tell the whole story about a match. :p:p:p
.

First, if you started to make unforced errors from the very first point, that shows you are nervous, you are focusing on "winning the match" instead of "playing your best", in other words immature or mentally weak.

Second, mental strength is the result of maturity and confidence, and indeed can affect much the game. I don't understand why you kept trying to treat it as unimportant.

Lastly, notice that even if we disregard all the unforced errors, LD still leads LCW by a few points. So obviously my statistics doesn't deny that LD may be technically better.

My conclusion is that LCW will have substantial chance beating LD if he can focus on every shot instead of the score. It would be nice if LCW can try this before OG, like LD did in Sudirman 2007 (where he obviously does not care much about winning but more about testing his new style)

I am not a professional game analyst. I just did some statistics, found the result interesting to me, and therefore posted it to share with other people. If you think it's nonsense, you can

1. simply ignore it, or
2. do some research yourself, show your statistics and conclude that such statistics is meaningless.

Have you also invested the time to look at other players' unforced errors in each match as well? :rolleyes: Someone can probably count all the unforced errors that Wacha made against LCW in the Swiss semi, and say that LCW didn't really won the match by being technically better, but mentally stronger than Wacha...

When I play against a better player(than myself), I make a lot of forced and unforced errors, too... but do I go tell him that I lost to him because he is mentally stronger than I am? Hell... No...:rolleyes:

That's actually my point. If one player is in good balance and has enough time, yet choose to play risky shots which most of the time lead to him/her losing the point, he should change his shot-choice in the future.

My interpretion is that LCW wanted to win too much and chose wrong shots in many cases...


You did a good job on your analysis and came up with a theory. I just want to make a comment on LCW playing risky shots. From watching some videos, I found very often players who did risky shots had little choice because they were technically not as good as their opponents. Very often they could not break the defense and at the same time face a relentless offense so out of desperation they went for the winner (risky shots), but ended up with even more unforced errors. I'm not sure whether LCW could have played his shots differently: Did he have a choice? (care to comment on this?)

I think there is a difference between doing risky shots later in the game, when it's clear that such shots are necessary to win, and doing risky shots from the very start, before the game is unwrapped.

My opinion is this: if one player chose highly risky shots from the very start, this shows he is mentally unstable or he is gambling. Such gambling may be a good strategy when opponent is much stronger (for example, if Shoji Sato is playing LD). On the other hand, if the opponent is just slightly stronger, like in LCW vs. LD, LCW has good chance to win if LD is not in top form, so it is not wise to gamble from the very start.

In Swiss Open final, LCW made unforced errors from the very start. Before he had any chance to test LD's form. This is not what confident/mature players would do. In contrast, if we look at LD or TH's games, they always play the first few points safely, and use those points to test their opponents.

You did a good job on your analysis and came up with a theory. I just want to make a comment on LCW playing risky shots. From watching some videos, I found very often players who did risky shots had little choice because they were technically not as good as their opponents. Very often they could not break the defense and at the same time face a relentless offense so out of desperation they went for the winner (risky shots), but ended up with even more unforced errors. I'm not sure whether LCW could have played his shots differently: Did he have a choice? (care to comment on this?)

I think there is a difference between doing risky shots later in the game, when it's clear that such shots are necessary to win, and doing risky shots from the very start, before the game is unwrapped.

My opinion is this: if one player chose highly risky shots from the very start, this shows he is mentally unstable or he is gambling. Such gambling may be a good strategy when opponent is much stronger (for example, if Shoji Sato is playing LD). On the other hand, if the opponent is just slightly stronger, like in LCW vs. LD, LCW has good chance to win if LD is not in top form, so it is not wise to gamble from the very start.

In Swiss Open final, LCW made unforced errors from the very start. Before he had any chance to test LD's form. This is not what confident/mature players would do. In contrast, if we look at LD or TH's games, they always play the first few points safely, and use those points to test their opponents.

I see your points there. Maybe that's why LD seems always a slow starter and often doing catch up in the game one. Never understood before, thanks for pointing out the difference.

I think there is a difference between doing risky shots later in the game, when it's clear that such shots are necessary to win, and doing risky shots from the very start, before the game is unwrapped.

My opinion is this: if one player chose highly risky shots from the very start, this shows he is mentally unstable or he is gambling. Such gambling may be a good strategy when opponent is much stronger (for example, if Shoji Sato is playing LD). On the other hand, if the opponent is just slightly stronger, like in LCW vs. LD, LCW has good chance to win if LD is not in top form, so it is not wise to gamble from the very start.

In Swiss Open final, LCW made unforced errors from the very start. Before he had any chance to test LD's form. This is not what confident/mature players would do. In contrast, if we look at LD or TH's games, they always play the first few points safely, and use those points to test their opponents.

u got it totally backward:rolleyes:
LD has the upper hand and it was LD who is feeling out lcw and not the other way.
In present form, LD has the play style arsenals (ie. answers) to counter any players out there, be it taufik, lcw, PG, bcl, CJ, etc. Whether it was intentional or not, it seem lcw/misbun enter the match against LD with no specific game plan. Sure those players can test all they want and see what play style LD is using but unfortunately for them, it will be too late to catch up because LD is about to polishes them off

i like to add that under NSS, it will COSTS u points to test your opponent and the execution has to be flawless if one want to catch up and wn under NSS.

While you all are discussing this "unforced error" thingy, Misbun said to one of the malay press that LCW losses to CJ & LD in Europe was due to change of styles when playing LCW. CJ & LD changed their usual style to counter LCW. BCL's style remained the same, from what Misbun observed in BCL matches, although LCW didnt meet BCL in AE & SO.
Therefore, Misbun said he & LCW would find strategies to counter these "new" styles. Of course Misbun wouldnt mention what those strategies are or what exactly CJ & LD's new strategies that he saw.

You all can take a look at the vids again & see what Misbun meant.

Well, just watch LD vs. LHI. LHI used the whole first game to test LD and adjust the form of himself. He did very well in the following two games. You can also watch LD vs. PSH. PSH didn't try any risky shots, and it turned out that LD was not in top form that day (according to TSF, LD was not in bad form either). LCW panicked from the very start, and he lost without learning anything.

You are talking like LD is God. :D

u got it totally backward:rolleyes:
LD has the upper hand and it was LD who is feeling out lcw and not the other way.
In present form, LD has the play style arsenals (ie. answers) to counter any players out there, be it taufik, lcw, PG, bcl, CJ, etc. Whether it was intentional or not, it seem lcw/misbun enter the match against LD with no specific game plan. Sure those players can test all they want and see what play style LD is using but unfortunately for them, it will be too late to catch up because LD is about to polishes them off

In Swiss Final, whenever LCW chose safer shots and a more passive mode, he could at least match LD. Then he tried some risky shots and gave a few points in a row to LD. :cool:

While you all are discussing this "unforced error" thingy, Misbun said to one of the malay press that LCW losses to CJ & LD in Europe was due to change of styles when playing LCW. CJ & LD changed their usual style to counter LCW. BCL's style remained the same, from what Misbun observed in BCL matches, although LCW didnt meet BCL in AE & SO.
Therefore, Misbun said he & LCW would find strategies to counter these "new" styles. Of course Misbun wouldnt mention what those strategies are or what exactly CJ & LD's new strategies that he saw.

You all can take a look at the vids again & see what Misbun meant.

While you all are discussing this "unforced error" thingy, Misbun said to one of the malay press that LCW losses to CJ & LD in Europe was due to change of styles when playing LCW. CJ & LD changed their usual style to counter LCW. BCL's style remained the same, from what Misbun observed in BCL matches, although LCW didnt meet BCL in AE & SO.
Therefore, Misbun said he & LCW would find strategies to counter these "new" styles. Of course Misbun wouldnt mention what those strategies are or what exactly CJ & LD's new strategies that he saw.

You all can take a look at the vids again & see what Misbun meant.

If Misbun saw CJ and LD changed playing styles against LCW. Would it be possible for him to tell LCW what to do during the matches? I would image that's not something hard to do and that's why coaches were there outside of court :confused:

If Misbun saw CJ and LD changed playing styles against LCW. Would it be possible for him to tell LCW what to do during the matches? I would image that's not something hard to do and that's why coaches were there outside of court :confused:

Yes, either the strategies Misbun told LCW on the day didnt work, or LCW didnt execute them effectively. So, basically they need to think of strategies that work. CJ didnt manage to win over LCW in just 1 day, but months. Same as LCW didnt manage to win a match over LD until some time.

Misbun also saw LHI with Li Mao there could read LCW's game, and said must find strategies to counter it. Although LCW won the match against LHI in MO 2008, on another day, LHI could have won.

Well, just watch LD vs. LHI. LHI used the whole first game to test LD and adjust the form of himself. He did very well in the following two games. You can also watch LD vs. PSH. PSH didn't try any risky shots, and it turned out that LD was not in top form that day (according to TSF, LD was not in bad form either). LCW panicked from the very start, and he lost without learning anything.

You are talking like LD is God. :Du keep forgeting what i have said before in other threads. It was the line judges who beat LD at the 08 KO, not LHI. I ask u this, do u know any effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line judging?? So, u r saying LHI can read super Dan but LHI can't read some lower level players as we all know LHI was out on round 1 at the following AE and Swiss Open.

Yes, either the strategies Misbun told LCW on the day didnt work, or LCW didnt execute them effectively. So, basically they need to think of strategies that work. CJ didnt manage to win over LCW in just 1 day, but months. Same as LCW didnt manage to win a match over LD until some time.

Misbun also saw LHI with Li Mao there could read LCW's game, and said must find strategies to counter it. Although LCW won the match against LHI in MO 2008, on another day, LHI could have won.
u make it sound so simple, just read your opponents like a book and execute the right plan. Well, i can read LD too but the problem is my skills lack kryptonite potency and hence my execution would fail too.

u keep forgeting what i have said before in other threads. It was the line judges who beat LD at the 08 KO, not LHI. I ask u this, do u know any effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line judging?? So, u r saying LHI can read super Dan but LHI can't read some lower level players as we all know LHI was out on round 1 at the following AE and Swiss Open.
Cooler, you're normally clearer than this on KO:
1. The line judges were well neutralised by the umpire.
2. LD held 4 matchpoints but actually had more than 6 opportunities to win the match yet couldn't because LHI was mentally too strong for him.
3. Looking at the match as a whole, LHI outsmarted LD.(because physically LHI couldn't match LD)
Now when it came to AE and SWO,it's LHI's 3rd and 4th tournaments so he lost to fatigue and his lucky opponents got the credit.

u make it sound so simple, just read your opponents like a book and execute the right plan. Well, i can read LD too but the problem is my skills lack kryptonite potency and hence my execution would fail too.

Ha ha, originally I just posted Misbun's said to the malay press. I did say it took months before CJ beat LCW, I know it's hard. Summary mah.
You all can interpret for yourselves what Misbun meant by CJ & LD "new" playing style when they are against LCW.

Ha ha, originally I just posted Misbun's said to the malay press. I did say it took months before CJ beat LCW, I know it's hard. Summary mah.
You all can interpret for yourselves what Misbun meant by CJ & LD "new" playing style when they are against LCW.

Just felt a little odd Misbun said that as the main cause of LCW's loss. I don't know how often coaches gave this kind reasoning. Usually you change your play as the opponent changes his. It's all evolving during the match. There are no secrete weapons except one's technical ability or the condition he/she is in that day. Adjustments can be made, but they are not the deciding factors in my opinion compared to the fundamental ability to play better overall. That's why we will never beat LD for sure :D

I didn't forget what you said. I disagree with what you said. If one player changed his whole game plan because one or two overruled bad calls, I would say he is mentally weak -- Because discarding your effective gameplan usually costs you more points. I don't that LD is mentally that weak.

Furthermore, what I said is LHI did very well in the following two games. Just watch the games. You can't deny that LHI did very well in games 2 and 3. His shots are effective in moving LD around and his attack/defence are good. So even if he lost, he would lose closely. Also notice that although LD knew what Korean line judges are like (in other words, he knew bad calls are highly likely to happen -- what he surely didn't know is that most of them will be overruled ;)), he made a show at the very first bad call. I would say it's all mind game. LD is not some newbee who would panick and change his whole game-plan because of a few overruled line calls.

FYI, LHI said himself that he panicked in AG SF after the 3:21 first game but stayed calm in KO08, and that made a big difference in his performance in later games.

Of course it is possible that one player did well against tough opponents but badly against lesser ones. You prepare better when facing tougher ones. And that's why there are dark horses.

Finally LHI out in AE08 and SW08 doesn't mean he cannot beat LD. PSH lost to all kinds of players, but he beated LD fair and square in China.

u keep forgeting what i have said before in other threads. It was the line judges who beat LD at the 08 KO, not LHI. I ask u this, do u know any effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line judging?? So, u r saying LHI can read super Dan but LHI can't read some lower level players as we all know LHI was out on round 1 at the following AE and Swiss Open.

What are you trying to argue here? LD is God and it's not possible for others to beat him? :confused:

The difference between you and LCW is pretty clear. You lack the necessary skills to beat LD but LCW has them. :D

u make it sound so simple, just read your opponents like a book and execute the right plan. Well, i can read LD too but the problem is my skills lack kryptonite potency and hence my execution would fail too.

Cooler, you're normally clearer than this on KO:
1. The line judges were well neutralised by the umpire.
2. LD held 4 matchpoints but actually had more than 6 opportunities to win the match yet couldn't because LHI was mentally too strong for him.
3. Looking at the match as a whole, LHI outsmarted LD.(because physically LHI couldn't match LD)
Now when it came to AE and SWO,it's LHI's 3rd and 4th tournaments so he lost to fatigue and his lucky opponents got the credit.

I would not draw that conclusion so easily. The umpire reversed 3 biased linecalls, but that did not stop the linesmen from carrying out another biased one at the very end of the match. Were they neutralized or deterred from doing it in any way? The answer was: No.

Misbun's words seem like "excuses" to me. :D

Let' review the 1st half of the 1st game. Bold: LCW's unforced errors.

1st pt(0:0): LD 1/4 smash and LCW returned it into the net.

2nd pt(0:1): LCW cross-court fast-slice-drop >1 feet out.

3rd pt(0:2): LCW straight slow-(slice?)-drop 1/2 feet out.

4th pt(0:3): I think this point reveals something. LD did a very good flick serve and get a very weak half-court return from LCW. However LCW returned well LD's smash (first in this match) and finally forced LD to play a quick backhand which went out.

5th pt(1:3): LD great deceptive push to the deep forehand corner.

6th pt(1:4): LD's net too good for LCW to kill.

7th pt(1:5): LCW returned very well LD's first power smash and managed to get a very weak reply after a few drives. But hit the shuttle into the net.

8th pt(1:6): LCW's punch clear to LD's deep backhand corner (Note: this is the kind of shot LD likes most) intercepted by LD and LCW failed to return the sudden smash.

9th pt(1:7): LCW great return of serve, but LD finally managed to make an OK return. LCW's push to deep corner was out.

10th pt(1:8): LCW forehand half-smash out.

11th pt(1:9): LCW horrible return of serve killed by LD.

12th pt(1:10): LCW great follow-up of smash.

13th pt(2:10): LCW good follow-up of smash but cross-court net-play into the net.

Frankly, I don't see any "strategy" can force LCW to make errors like those above.

Furthermore, I think LCW clearly out-played LD in the 4th, 7th, and 12th points; LD clearly out-played LCW in the 5th, 6th, and 8th points. So at least for the first half of the first game, I don't think LD's "new strategy" is the main contributor to the 11:2 scoreline. :cool:

Just felt a little odd Misbun said that as the main cause of LCW's loss. I don't know how often coaches gave this kind reasoning. Usually you change your play as the opponent changes his. It's all evolving during the match. There are no secrete weapons except one's technical ability or the condition he/she is in that day. Adjustments can be made, but they are not the deciding factors in my opinion compared to the fundamental ability to play better overall. That's why we will never beat LD for sure :D

I think the key is whether LD changed his game plan right after the 1st or the 2nd overruled bad calls. I don't think he did.

The last call may affect the result of the match, but it doesn't change the fact that LD and LHI were pretty much evenly matched in games 2 and 3.

I would not draw that conclusion so easily. The umpire reversed 3 biased linecalls, but that did not stop the linesmen from carrying out another biased one at the very end of the match. Were they neutralized or deterred from doing it in any way? The answer was: No.

I think the key is whether LD changed his game plan right after the 1st or the 2nd overruled bad calls. I don't think he did.

The last call may affect the result of the match, but it doesn't change the fact that LD and LHI were pretty much evenly matched in games 2 and 3.

I agree that LHI and LD both played well and the match could go either way if they were just left to play by themselves in KO 08 MSF.

Just watched Swiss Final again. The statistical result is interesting.
..
...
Let' review the 1st half of the 1st game. Bold: LCW's unforced errors.
...
..i've gotta hand it to you, ye333, for taking the extra time in reviewing the match!..:cool:..Or maybe, since we're in sort of a lull, with no major BWF baddy actions to follow, you've taken some time to re-watch and entertain us..:) ;)
Oh, btw, not sure if you have the time or not, but do you mind taking a look at my badminton playing video and critique my play. I know you'll probably fall asleep, but if you can point out, the same way like you did after watching LD vs. LCW's video, where i made my unforced errors and see if i possibly might've lost my confidence in my play...:rolleyes: :p;)

Just felt a little odd Misbun said that as the main cause of LCW's loss. I don't know how often coaches gave this kind reasoning. Usually you change your play as the opponent changes his. It's all evolving during the match. There are no secrete weapons except one's technical ability or the condition he/she is in that day. Adjustments can be made, but they are not the deciding factors in my opinion compared to the fundamental ability to play better overall. That's why we will never beat LD for sure :D

LD is a thinking player, just depends whether LCW could response to the change fast enuf. But in AE against CJ, LCW was slower to get his act together, before he could unleash his arsenal, CJ already won.

Misbun's words seem like "excuses" to me. :D


Frankly, I don't see any "strategy" can force LCW to make errors like those above.

So at least for the first half of the first game, I don't think LD's "new strategy" is the main contributor to the 11:2 scoreline. :cool:

He, he, 'excuses' eh? Misbun is smart.;) DUring LCW told the Chinese radio station he was exhausted during SO Finals, he tried but could not bring his game up against LD.
That's the player's reason, if he said that to print media, it would have been seen as 'excuse', worse excuse than the "new style" reason Misbun gave.

...
He, he, 'excuses' eh? Misbun is smart.;) DUring LCW told the Chinese radio station he was exhausted during SO Finals, he tried but could not bring his game up against LD.
That's the player's reason, if he said that to print media, it would have been seen as 'excuse', worse excuse than the "new style" reason Misbun gave.

Most of us saw the matches and thought LCW had a bad day or "off" day. He did not play well at his best, probably due to tiredness. I don't think tiredness or old injury are bad excuses, very reasonable to me. But when coaches came up with an excuse like "new strategy" from opponents, it makes me wonder what were the coaches doing during the matches? It's their job to help the players get through tough situations. Players depend on coaches to give them sound advice, courage, and confidence to fight on and win. I hope this "new strategy" thing from Misbun was merely a media talk afterward :rolleyes:

u keep forgeting what i have said before in other threads. It was the line judges who beat LD at the 08 KO, not LHI. I ask u this, do u know any effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line judging?? So, u r saying LHI can read super Dan but LHI can't read some lower level players as we all know LHI was out on round 1 at the following AE and Swiss Open.

A simple, effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line-judging is:
Don't aim for the lines ;)

The pros are skilled enough to hit with a high degree of accuracy.
Shift the target area inwards by a few centimetres and no line-judge can get you :p

PS: The more brazen calls (like the wide one against Flandy & Vita) will simply get overruled as the line-judge's 'mistake' would be too obvious.

Well, I think LCW did pretty well in the 2nd half of the 1st game and the whole 2nd game. So I am not sure what LCW meant by "exhausted".

Btw, he played two tournaments and was already exhausted, maybe BAM should hire some Australian stamina expert too. :D

LD is a thinking player, just depends whether LCW could response to the change fast enuf. But in AE against CJ, LCW was slower to get his act together, before he could unleash his arsenal, CJ already won.



He, he, 'excuses' eh? Misbun is smart.;) DUring LCW told the Chinese radio station he was exhausted during SO Finals, he tried but could not bring his game up against LD.
That's the player's reason, if he said that to print media, it would have been seen as 'excuse', worse excuse than the "new style" reason Misbun gave.

I disagree. Not aiming at the lines would make it much easier for your opponent to defense.

IMHO, the best strategy for LD is to continue playing like nothing happened until there are one or two bad calls which are not overruled. Since only when that happens, you know for sure that keeping aiming at the lines will make you lose points.

A simple, effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line-judging is:
Don't aim for the lines ;)

The pros are skilled enough to hit with a high degree of accuracy.
Shift the target area inwards by a few centimetres and no line-judge can get you :p

PS: The more brazen calls (like the wide one against Flandy & Vita) will simply get overruled as the line-judge's 'mistake' would be too obvious.

*Clap Clap*

Have to hand it to ye333 for his very detailed and sharp review of LCW vs LD's match at the Swiss Open.

I personally think that LD just played his normal game while LCW just happened to make silly but costly errors in the first half of the first set. LCW did bounce back in the second set and made LD fought hard to win it at the end.

I disagree. Not aiming at the lines would make it much easier for your opponent to defense.

Not aiming for the lines but a bit inside (as in my post) would make it a bit easier ;)

Well, I think LCW did pretty well in the 2nd half of the 1st game and the whole 2nd game. So I am not sure what LCW meant by "exhausted".

Btw, he played two tournaments and was already exhausted, maybe BAM should hire some Australian stamina expert too. :D

Most of us saw the matches and thought LCW had a bad day or "off" day. He did not play well at his best, probably due to tiredness. I don't think tiredness or old injury are bad excuses, very reasonable to me. .... I hope this "new strategy" thing from Misbun was merely a media talk afterward :rolleyes:

My friend, you're not sporting authority or Msian,LOL, no excuse as tiredness is acceptable. Razif Sidek, the OG bronze medalist with Jailani, commented before that in his playing time, they played more tourneys per year & won titles, so compared to players nowdays who have less tourneys, so....:rolleyes:

Ye333, LCW played in TC qualifers two weeks bf AE & SO.
"Exhausted" from I observe for LCW refers more to mental focus

Cooler, you're normally clearer than this on KO:
1. The line judges were well neutralised by the umpire.
2. LD held 4 matchpoints but actually had more than 6 opportunities to win the match yet couldn't because LHI was mentally too strong for him.
3. Looking at the match as a whole, LHI outsmarted LD.(because physically LHI couldn't match LD)
Now when it came to AE and SWO,it's LHI's 3rd and 4th tournaments so he lost to fatigue and his lucky opponents got the credit.

LHI won because of
1. line judge. the last bad call is critical.
2. the audience supports.

LHI's losses in AE and SO are due to lack of line judge help and audience supports.
LHI is only a homeground champion.

Actually that's my impression too. LCW seems to be weak on "mental stamina". One tough match (for example AE08 vs. TH) and he seems slow-thinking in the next one (AE08 vs. CJ). It would be hard for him to do well in OG if he cannot improve on this, since in OG you have to win several tough (mentally exhausting) matches in a row. :cool:


Ye333, LCW played in TC qualifers two weeks bf AE & SO.
"Exhausted" from I observe for LCW refers more to mental focus

LHI won because of
1. line judge. the last bad call is critical.
2. the audience supports.

LHI's losses in AE and SO are due to lack of line judge help and audience supports.
LHI is only a homeground champion.
LHI won German Open this year and an Indonesia Open title before.KO07 was the first time he won at home.
Either improve your English or do your homework before spraying.

Actually that's my impression too. LCW seems to be weak on "mental stamina". One tough match (for example AE08 vs. TH) and he seems slow-thinking in the next one (AE08 vs. CJ). It would be hard for him to do well in OG if he cannot improve on this, since in OG you have to win several tough (mentally exhausting) matches in a row. :cool:
Let me try and help you understand the difference between mental fatigue and mental stamina.
Stamina is what a player has originally in the tank.
Fatigue is the drain on the tank.
Just as every match will take its toll on a player, every tournament will inflict a greater toll.As a comparison, from TC Qualifying to SWO:
1. LCW played 3 tourneys, some 12+ matches.
2. LD played 2 tourneys, 10 matches(out of which were 3 match 'breaks' playing teammates which burn little mental energy)
3. LHI played 4 tourneys,11+ matches.He won the GO but it took its toll in his crashing out first round in his 3rd and 4th tournament.
All these 3 players have some of the best stamina. They are not 'weak' on mental stamina but mental fatigue sets in with each subsequent tournament.
Remember LD last year? He sailed through the GO and AE but he couldn't pulled through SWO probably because it was the 3rd tournament and he lost to a qualifier,retiring due to 'back injury.' (Actually LD and company were supposed to play GO but when they realised KOR invasion, CHN chickened out, wisely.Otherwise LCW and company would have been able to enjoy the spoils of the CHN/KOR battle.)
So pls, it's mental fatigue. Not 'weak' in mental stamina.

Actually that's my impression too. LCW seems to be weak on "mental stamina". One tough match (for example AE08 vs. TH) and he seems slow-thinking in the next one (AE08 vs. CJ). It would be hard for him to do well in OG if he cannot improve on this, since in OG you have to win several tough (mentally exhausting) matches in a row. :cool:
..barring any W/O from the opponent, doesn't one go through the same process as in other SS events??..But unlike SS tourneys, the badminton matches in Olympics MS event start with Round of 32. So, counting the days, starting on Wednesday during the week, i assume there'll be no more than 1 match per day (per player)?; leading up to the Finals day on Sunday. Whilst in regular SS tourney, a player in the MS event can even have 2 matches in one day.

LHI won because of
1. line judge. the last bad call is critical.
2. the audience supports.

LHI's losses in AE and SO are due to lack of line judge help and audience supports.
LHI is only a homeground champion.

LHI won German Open this year and an Indonesia Open title before.KO07 was the first time he won at home.
Either improve your English or do your homework before spraying.

What dannyang said were his opinions, some possible reasons why LHI had won or lost, maybe not complete. His comment about homegrown champion was referring more to recent competitions since KO 08. As for German Open 08, Sung Hwan Park was seeded #1 and LHI #2. LHI won MS there without the participation of LD, LCW, BCL, and CJ.

We are all entitled to give our opinions in BC discussion. Your remark about him "spraying" appears to be an insult and totally uncalled for.

Well, IMHO, LCW showed mental fatigue as early as AE SF against CJ. He was not very sharp either in the earlier QF against TH (at that time I thought he was hiding his real self for later battles, but then he was even slower in the match against CJ ).

Let me try and help you understand the difference between mental fatigue and mental stamina.
Stamina is what a player has originally in the tank.
Fatigue is the drain on the tank.
Just as every match will take its toll on a player, every tournament will inflict a greater toll.As a comparison, from TC Qualifying to SWO:
1. LCW played 3 tourneys, some 12+ matches.
2. LD played 2 tourneys, 10 matches(out of which were 3 match 'breaks' playing teammates which burn little mental energy)
3. LHI played 4 tourneys,11+ matches.He won the GO but it took its toll in his crashing out first round in his 3rd and 4th tournament.
All these 3 players have some of the best stamina. They are not 'weak' on mental stamina but mental fatigue sets in with each subsequent tournament.
Remember LD last year? He sailed through the GO and AE but he couldn't pulled through SWO probably because it was the 3rd tournament and he lost to a qualifier,retiring due to 'back injury.' (Actually LD and company were supposed to play GO but when they realised KOR invasion, CHN chickened out, wisely.Otherwise LCW and company would have been able to enjoy the spoils of the CHN/KOR battle.)
So pls, it's mental fatigue. Not 'weak' in mental stamina.

What dannyang said were his opinions, some possible reasons why LHI had won or lost, maybe not complete. His comment about homegrown champion was referring more to recent competitions since KO 08. As for German Open 08, Sung Hwan Park was seeded #1 and LHI #2. LHI won MS there without the participation of LD, LCW, BCL, and CJ.

We are all entitled to give our opinions in BC discussion. Your remark about him "spraying" appears to be an insult and totally uncalled for.
Well, i'm glad you spoke up for him and my apologies for being terse with dannyang .So you think he's spot on?
You think he's not insulting LHI and his brainy KO08 victory over LD?(If you follow Ye333's analysis somewhere,LHI gave away G1 to check out LD's arsenal range.)
GO has always been CHN's turf.Why did LD and team pull out just because KOR decided to move in? Aren't you insulting LHI's GO08 win?

Well, IMHO, LCW showed mental fatigue as early as AE SF against CJ. He was not very sharp either in the earlier QF against TH (at that time I thought he was hiding his real self for later battles, but then he was even slower in the match against CJ ).
Totally agree with you.In fact, Jamesd22 noted in another thread that LCW seemed in not his best physical form since under Misbun.And jamesd22 is usually rather sharp with such observations.
When asked how he lost to CJ, he said ,'I don't know.' Which showed how tired he must be. My guess is LCW had overtrained during training,so during competition, he was showing signs of burnout(eg, snail speed, poor tactics).But CJ deserved full credit for his win. He was so on.
Even then, I was quite impressed that LCW could still hold on, playing on autopilot.The SWO MSF was closer than the score and I enjoyed it.LD was top form,very clear about his tactics and thoroughly deserve to win although LCW was generous in gifting him.
Question is:How to maintain LCW in top physical form so he does not get burnout from overtraining?

jamesd is not yet 22
He is still jamesd20 :p

Cooler, you're normally clearer than this on KO:
1. The line judges were well neutralised by the umpire.
2. LD held 4 matchpoints but actually had more than 6 opportunities to win the match yet couldn't because LHI was mentally too strong for him.
3. Looking at the match as a whole, LHI outsmarted LD.(because physically LHI couldn't match LD)
Now when it came to AE and SWO,it's LHI's 3rd and 4th tournaments so he lost to fatigue and his lucky opponents got the credit.

LHI won because of
1. line judge. the last bad call is critical.
2. the audience supports.

LHI's losses in AE and SO are due to lack of line judge help and audience supports.
LHI is only a homeground champion.

LHI won German Open this year and an Indonesia Open title before.KO07 was the first time he won at home.
Either improve your English or do your homework before spraying.

What dannyang said were his opinions, some possible reasons why LHI had won or lost, maybe not complete. His comment about homegrown champion was referring more to recent competitions since KO 08. As for German Open 08, Sung Hwan Park was seeded #1 and LHI #2. LHI won MS there without the participation of LD, LCW, BCL, and CJ.

We are all entitled to give our opinions in BC discussion. Your remark about him "spraying" appears to be an insult and totally uncalled for.

Well, i'm glad you spoke up for him and my apologies for being terse with dannyang .So you think he's spot on?
You think he's not insulting LHI and his brainy KO08 victory over LD?(If you follow Ye333's analysis somewhere,LHI gave away G1 to check out LD's arsenal range.)
GO has always been CHN's turf.Why did LD and team pull out just because KOR decided to move in? Aren't you insulting LHI's GO08 win?

I did not say "he's spot on". I said his reasons "maybe not complete", but they could be "some possible reasons" why LHI had won or lost. Please keep in mind, one thing in BC discussions ppl don't have to do is always giving complete pictures, assessments or reasoning. There are no requirements for BCers to give comments based on all the facts. But we do have code of conduct: no racist remarks, no personal insults, and no personal attacks, to name a few. These are the basic human decency. If you don't want to be called "spraying" when making comments, please don't do that to others.

As his remark an insult to LHI? I don't think so. We see this kind remarks or criticism day-in and day-out in the forum about players and coaches (I can find you many examples if you'd be interested). The view was one-sided. Many BCers give their one-sided views, that's why we have debates and rebuttals. Just look at you remark to cooler, you never thought biased linesmen had anything to do with influencing the final outcome of KO 08 MSF. Was that an insult to LD? The answer was no. It's your opinion, you're well within your rights to say only what you want to tell us regarding baddy.

.
When asked how he lost to CJ, he said ,'I don't know.' Which showed how tired he must be. My guess is LCW had overtrained during training,so during competition, he was showing signs of burnout(eg, snail speed, poor tactics).But CJ deserved full credit for his win. He was so on.


Errrrr, LCW didnt say (if you were talking about LCW) "I dont know", LCW said he played slower against CJ.

jamesd is not yet 22
He is still jamesd20 :p
yeah, you're right, fatigue must have set in.
Well, jamesd20, sorry, I don't mean to rush you.
Just out of curiosity, what does the 20 denote? 22 actually look quite nice, don't you think so?

Errrrr, LCW didnt say (if you were talking about LCW) "I dont know", LCW said he played slower against CJ.
Read in one of the press.Maybe you can check.Don't think it's my imagination.

That's actually my point. If one player is in good balance and has enough time, yet choose to play risky shots which most of the time lead to him/her losing the point, he should change his shot-choice in the future.

My interpretion is that LCW wanted to win too much and chose wrong shots in many cases. And this is the reason why LD won so comfortably. Just look at my statistics, LD made his first unforced error when he has almost won the first game. That's a sign of confidence and maturity.

high risk, high return:D

Well, just watch LD vs. LHI. LHI used the whole first game to test LD and adjust the form of himself. He did very well in the following two games.

he did very well, with a series number of bad calls.
did u admit now that the bad calls favor to LHI?

What dannyang said were his opinions, some possible reasons why LHI had won or lost, maybe not complete. His comment about homegrown champion was referring more to recent competitions since KO 08. As for German Open 08, Sung Hwan Park was seeded #1 and LHI #2. LHI won MS there without the participation of LD, LCW, BCL, and CJ.

We are all entitled to give our opinions in BC discussion. Your remark about him "spraying" appears to be an insult and totally uncalled for.

no one CHN top MS were participated in Ina 05 when LHI won it

LD is a thinking player,
can't accept that. do you seriously say that other players don't think before or during the games?

can't accept that. do you seriously say that other players don't think before or during the games?
There's a big difference in 'thinking' between LD, or rather,CHN and non-CHN players. CHN players do a lot of the thinking way before the match. Non-CHN players try to do some thinking before the match and most of it (badly) during the match.
It's called pre-match preparations.When CHN players do pre-match thinking, they have the full resource of their coaches to help with all the opponent possibilities.So during a match, it looks like they are 'thinking' players.I get the feeling that MAS coaches concentrate more on skills and less on 'thinking'. Pre-match thinking training is the bigger match-winning factor because the NSS leaves a player almost no time to think.The fact that there are so many upsets indicate that skills has no edge when the 'better' player knows nothing about the 'lesser' player but the lesser player knows everything about the better player.

can't accept that. do you seriously say that other players don't think before or during the games?

It's a bit long to explain.
I quoted that cos this is a comment that has given about LD, LD plays "smart badminton". In comparision, it has been said that BCL & CJ depend too much on their coaches. LD is known to be able to change & adapt very fast.
Misbun commented last year that LCW is starting to play "smart badminton", I think it means players who are more independent, without depending too much on their coaches. If the original game plan doesnt work out, they quickly are able to change, those who are successful in countering their opponents are able to play smart badminton.

Needless to say, LCW didnt play very smart against LD in Swiss Open. It could be like LCW said, he was tired, could not execute the aggressive play that he should.
Or like his coach Misbun said, LD (and CJ) changed their strategy against LCW. Hence, the "new styles" thingy. Of course Misbun did not & will not elaborate on that.
Personally, my untrained eyes could not detect anything different from LD usual playing style in Swiss Open, neither did Birdwood. We do know though, LCW looked more tired than the fresh looking LD.
So, it's either 'excuses' like ye333 said or media ploy or Misbun saw sthing we non professionals didnt see.

...The fact that there are so many upsets indicate that skills has no edge when the 'better' player knows nothing about the 'lesser' player but the lesser player knows everything about the better player.

It looked this way when lesser-known players upset higher ranked ones, provided the luck was also on the side of lower ranked players that their superior opponents are not performing well. Often we saw seeded players lost in the early rounds clueless.

It's a bit long to explain.
I quoted that cos this is a comment that has given about LD, LD plays "smart badminton". In comparision, it has been said that BCL & CJ depend too much on their coaches. LD is known to be able to change & adapt very fast.
Misbun commented last year that LCW is starting to play "smart badminton", I think it means players who are more independent, without depending too much on their coaches. If the original game plan doesnt work out, they quickly are able to change, those who are successful in countering their opponents are able to play smart badminton.
...

BCL has few variation to his playing style. When he won, he always had better net shots and a quite number of smashes (good ones). When he lost, he would have done poorly on either one of them or had done neither.