Line judging at TC/UC

[markchan]

Nobody mentioned this but am I the only one to think that the line judging was at the highest level during the TC?UC? There was none of the controversies we saw at China and Korean Open. What a relief.
BTW did they use soley INA line judges or were there others?

[hcyong]

International judges were used especially in matches involving Indonesia. These judges are volunteers who paid their own airfare but the other costs (accomodation etc) were covered.

[jasonmarc]

International judges were used especially in matches involving Indonesia. These judges are volunteers who paid their own airfare but the other costs (accomodation etc) were covered.

Oh....they are international judges......i tot they are locals......i was wonder the line judge standard were so high............its proven good to used international line judge........but they have to pay their own air fare...? :eek:

[Louisa]

I have no time to chat with them, but I did saw quite a number of international line judges....and the standard, well, I give 2 thumbs up...

[Khawai]

The line judges did a very good job in the TC/UC. was really happy with it. it pisses me off to see biased line judges. Are they gonna start using the same technology like the one in tennis?By doing so, some countries (namely Korea) would not have the chance to cheat.

[Krisna]

International judges were used especially in matches involving Indonesia. These judges are volunteers who paid their own airfare but the other costs (accomodation etc) were covered.

BWF should do this 'international volunteer' system in Korea especially in matches involving Koreans... :p

[Loh]

I think it was the UC final between China and Indonesia. The line judge watching the base line on the umpire's side was unable to see clearly, probably blocked by the player's legs, and indicated as such by closing his eyes with his two palms.

The lady umpire, I understand to be from Hong Kong, called "in". This infuriated the Indonesian coach, I think it was Richard Maniaky (?), who ran up to the umpire in protest. Luckily his Indonesian colleague prevented him from further protests, otherwise he would be shown the yellow card and not allowed in the coaching area.

The lady umpire must have been very alert and since the shuttle landed on her side of the court and not on the far side, she could see the situation clearly and was bold enough to make a decision very quickly.

BWF Law 17.6.6

Where an appointed offical is unsighted (like this line judge in question), carry out that official's duties or play a "let". (In this case the lady umpire must have clearly seen that the shuttle has landed 'in'.)

BWF Law 17.5

... if in the opinion of the umpire, it is beyond reasonable doubt that a line judge has clearly made a wrong call, the umpire shall overrule the decision of the line judge.

BWF Law 17.2

The umpire shall be in charge of the match, the court and its immediate surrounds. (So if team offcials, like coach Richard M, make unnecessary protests which could disrupt and interfere with the smooth running of the match, they could be cautioned and sent out.)

[pjswift]

BWF should do this 'international volunteer' system in Korea especially in matches involving Koreans... :p
International line judges will be used for matches involving home players. Hence in CHN, for CHN matches, in KOR ,for KOR matches,in Spore for Spore matches, etc.

[huangkwokhau]

I think it was the UC final between China and Indonesia. The line judge watching the base line on the umpire's side was unable to see clearly, probably blocked by the player's legs, and indicated as such by closing his eyes with his two palms.

The lady umpire, I understand to be from Hong Kong, called "in". This infuriated the Indonesian coach, I think it was Richard Maniaky (?), who ran up to the umpire in protest. Luckily his Indonesian colleague prevented him from further protests, otherwise he would be shown the yellow card and not allowed in the coaching area.

The lady umpire must have been very alert and since the shuttle landed on her side of the court and not on the far side, she could see the situation clearly and was bold enough to make a decision very quickly.

BWF Law 17.6.6

Where an appointed offical is unsighted (like this line judge in question), carry out that official's duties or play a "let". (In this case the lady umpire must have clearly seen that the shuttle has landed 'in'.)

BWF Law 17.5

... if in the opinion of the umpire, it is beyond reasonable doubt that a line judge has clearly made a wrong call, the umpire shall overrule the decision of the line judge.

BWF Law 17.2

The umpire shall be in charge of the match, the court and its immediate surrounds. (So if team offcials, like coach Richard M, make unnecessary protests which could disrupt and interfere with the smooth running of the match, they could be cautioned and sent out.)
Her name is Wong Sui Yin

[huangkwokhau]

Hope that BWF will use this high standard for Olympics 2008......

[SibugiChai]

This is the best improvement made by IBF!

So good...

Fair & square

I love it! Make sure Beijing 2008 also the same!

[markchan]

Yeah, i wanna be int'nl line judge for Beijing OG!!! How to apply?? any qualifications needed? i wonder.

Seriously, I think this is a far improvement and MUST be used for Beijing OG.

[AlanY]

International line judges will be used for matches involving home players. Hence in CHN, for CHN matches, in KOR ,for KOR matches,in Spore for Spore matches, etc.
it's not quite as as simple as that, isn't it? as an example in the recent TC, INA already in the SF awaiting to meet the winner of DEN/KOR. let's say that the INA coach states that he rather play against DEN than KOR in the semi. that obviously can create opportunities for the line judges to cheat (to make a few humun errors in favour of DEN, the Korean/Chinese style).
ideally we can and should put our trust into the line judges to be impartial.

isn't it a shame that only badminton has that kind of problem!

[huangkwokhau]

it's not quite as as simple as that, isn't it? as an example in the recent TC, INA already in the SF awaiting to meet the winner of DEN/KOR. let's say that the INA coach states that he rather play against DEN than KOR in the semi. that obviously can create opportunities for the line judges to cheat (to make a few humun errors in favour of DEN, the Korean/Chinese style).
ideally we can and should put our trust into the line judges to be impartial.

isn't it a shame that only badminton has that kind of problem!
Pls elaborate..I do not understand what you are trying to point out........

The fact that KOR def DEN and INA line judges did a good job...if not there would be dispute so KOR Open and China Open should do same thing......

[AlanY]

Pls elaborate..I do not understand what you are trying to point out........

The fact that KOR def DEN and INA line judges did a good job...if not there would be dispute so KOR Open and China Open should do same thing......
when i tried to say is just putting impartial line judges to matches involving home team is not enough, as suggested by

Originally Posted by pjswift http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=881580#post881580)
International line judges will be used for matches involving home players. Hence in CHN, for CHN matches, in KOR ,for KOR matches,in Spore for Spore matches, etc.


got it?

[AlanY]

Pls elaborate..I do not understand what you are trying to point out........

The fact that KOR def DEN and INA line judges did a good job...if not there would be dispute so KOR Open and China Open should do same thing......
that was only an example that what suggested by pjswift may not be sufficient. lets have another example, OG in 3 months time, LD already in the final, LCW/TH in another semi. LD states that he rather play TH than LCW in the final. LCW will be against TH and TH's new found friends (10 chinese line judges). again, only as an example.

[huangkwokhau]

that was only an example that what suggested by pjswift may not be sufficient. lets have another example, OG in 3 months time, LD already in the final, LCW/TH in another semi. LD states that he rather play TH than LCW in the final. LCW will be against TH and TH's new found friends (10 chinese line judges). again, only as an example.
Thats only " IF"..........line judges should do their job honestly...if they do/cheat that...LCW will not keep quiet as Olympic is the highest stake ever....
Just for your information, BWF is under IOC's eyes and BWF will make sure the incidents like KO will not be repeated and I have been told that from semifinal onward , the umpires who are off duty will be delegated as line judges as well.......lets see if BWF can keep clean and let the best be the winner.......

[AlanY]

Thats only " IF"..........line judges should do their job honestly...if they do/cheat that...LCW will not keep quiet as Olympic is the highest stake ever....
Just for your information, BWF is under IOC's eyes and BWF will make sure the incidents like KO will not be repeated and I have been told that from semifinal onward , the umpires who are off duty will be delegated as line judges as well.......lets see if BWF can keep clean and let the best be the winner.......
sometimes when the shuttlecock is so broderline that even the player himself cannot be certain and the line judge can give it either way. another example is if the disputed call is on your opponent's baseline it's really difficult to make an appeal to the ref.

why cant we have a video replay and a second judge just like cricket (for those not familar with that wonderful sport, just think of a more civilise form of baseball). the facility is already there, the ref can ask for a review if it was a close call and let the second judge make a decision based on the video evidents.

[huangkwokhau]

sometimes when the shuttlecock is so broderline that even the player himself cannot be certain and the line judge can give it either way. another example is if the disputed call is on your opponent's baseline it's really difficult to make an appeal to the ref.

why cant we have a video replay and a second judge just like cricket (for those not familar with that wonderful sport, just think of a more civilise form of baseball). the facility is already there, the ref can ask for a review if it was a close call and let the second judge make a decision based on the video evidents.
Using a video replay is absolutely a GOOD way...BWF will not use Hawk Eye as it costs US$ 50K per court...
I jus hope that they start using it in Singapore or INA SS before applying them on Olympics..........

[abedeng]

All the line judges used at the tournament are certified international umpires.

They have done a very good job. Not unnecessary controversies. And in the decision that the umpire had to make (INA vs CHN Uber Cup), it was correct.

[AlanY]

All the line judges used at the tournament are certified international umpires.

They have done a very good job. Not unnecessary controversies. And in the decision that the umpire had to make (INA vs CHN Uber Cup), it was correct.
well, ideally that is what it should be, let them getting on their jobs, professionally.
typically, in the early rounds of a tournament there are 5 or 6 courts ongoing at the same time. allow them to have a break in-between matches, you are talking about 2*6*10*1.25 (contingency) = 150 international umpires as line judges! ok, 149, i'm going if they let me!

[Dreamzz]

sometimes when the shuttlecock is so broderline that even the player himself cannot be certain and the line judge can give it either way. another example is if the disputed call is on your opponent's baseline it's really difficult to make an appeal to the ref.

why cant we have a video replay and a second judge just like cricket (for those not familar with that wonderful sport, just think of a more civilise form of baseball). the facility is already there, the ref can ask for a review if it was a close call and let the second judge make a decision based on the video evidents.


probably the same reason why it isn't used in football, it disrupts the flow of the game.

[pjswift]

that was only an example that what suggested by pjswift may not be sufficient. lets have another example, OG in 3 months time, LD already in the final, LCW/TH in another semi. LD states that he rather play TH than LCW in the final. LCW will be against TH and TH's new found friends (10 chinese line judges). again, only as an example.
Sorry, that was not my suggestion. That was what the international line judges told me.The key problem in the past was domestic line judges favouring home players.(The other problem you hypothesised would be a long shot and not considered a problem.)
By the way, hcyong noted that line judges were rotated after each game so each line judge looked at at least two different lines per match.This procedure evens out fatigue and minimises bias even further.
It's not easy to qualify as an international line judge.You first have to qualify for your local BA standard,then get accredited and recommended and then selected.Probably will need quite a few tournaments' experience.
Frankly ,with the international line judges doing such a splendid job, there's no need for hawkeye.
What needs to be fixed next are umpires.BWF umpires have wildly differing standards.

[AlanY]

Sorry, that was not my suggestion. That was what the international line judges told me.The key problem in the past was domestic line judges favouring home players.(The other problem you hypothesised would be a long shot and not considered a problem.)
By the way, hcyong noted that line judges were rotated after each game so each line judge looked at at least two different lines per match.This procedure evens out fatigue and minimises bias even further.
It's not easy to qualify as an international line judge.You first have to qualify for your local BA standard,then get accredited and recommended and then selected.Probably will need quite a few tournaments' experience.
Frankly ,with the international line judges doing such a splendid job, there's no need for hawkeye.
What needs to be fixed next are umpires.BWF umpires have wildly differing standards.
sorry that if i'd misquoted you. i'm not disputing the high quality of the line judges at the recent UC/TC at all, just saying that if just using impartial judges for the matches not invloved home players may not be sufficient.
we all know that how important of the MS2 in the final between BCL and LHI that ended first game in 28-26. one bad call will probably ended up with LHI won the game and the match, and KOR as the champion!

[ctjcad]

..i believe in one of the matches (either in QF or SF), i saw U.S.' Paisan R. helping out as one of the linejudges??..if not, maybe as one of the side court officials??..Or maybe the person looks like Paisan??..did anyone else notice that??..:confused:

[huangkwokhau]

..i believe in one of the matches (either in QF or SF), i saw U.S.' Paisan R. helping out as one of the linejudges??..if not, maybe as one of the side court officials??..Or maybe the person looks like Paisan??..did anyone else notice that??..:confused:
I can confirm that it was not Paisan....

[Krisna]

International line judges will be used for matches involving home players. Hence in CHN, for CHN matches, in KOR ,for KOR matches,in Spore for Spore matches, etc.

If so, fair enough! :cool:

[ctjcad]

..(sorry if i might've skimmed through all the posts for the answer)..But, what if:
There are 3 matches involving the host nation's player or players??...And say, if there were only 10 international line-judges available, how will they divvy/assign up those international linejudges into those matches? Would the international linejudges be divvied-up/assigned and mixed in with the local line-judges??..Or are they going to fully utilize and involve international line-judges PLUS the idling umpires to "referee" the 3 matches involving the host nation's player or players??..:confused:
Thus, if the latter were implemented, i'd imagine there would need be around at least 24 (8 line-judges for each match) international/non-local line-judges/umpires. And that's only for 3 matches; if there were more, then they probably would need more??..:confused:

[AlanY]

..(sorry if i might've skimmed through all the posts for the answer)..But, what if:
There are 3 matches involving the host nation's player or players??...And say, if there were only 10 international line-judges available, how will they divvy up those international linejudges into those matches? Would the international linejudges be divvied-up and mixed in with the local line-judges??..Or are they going to fully utilize and involve international line-judges PLUS the idling umpires to "referee" the 3 matches involving the host nation's player or players??..:confused:
Thus, if the latter were implemented, i'd imagine there would need be around at least 24 (8 line-judges for each match) international/non-local line-judges/umpires. And that's only for 3 matches; if there were more, then they probably would need more??..:confused:
149, see my previous post.

[ctjcad]

..actually what i meant to ask was, what is the minimum no. of international line-judges/umpires needed in order to maintain this type of line-judging standard??..10?? 20?? 30??..

[sumbadder]

Her name is Wong Sui Yin
It was Shon Hee Joo. And the shot was clearly in so she definitely made the right call.

[ye333]

I don't think so. In badminton, all judgments involving line judges are made when there is no "flow" at all.

I think the umpire should be allowed to overrule basing on video-replays. And there should be regulations about the number and angles of cameras for all super-series and higher level tournaments.


probably the same reason why it isn't used in football, it disrupts the flow of the game.

[Fijitu]

I found this quite funny during the match between Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlzakQ1ZccI&feature=related

watch the call by the line judge

[SibugiChai]

I don't think so. In badminton, all judgments involving line judges are made when there is no "flow" at all.

I think the umpire should be allowed to overrule basing on video-replays. And there should be regulations about the number and angles of cameras for all super-series and higher level tournaments.

Video should be interesting! I think it a must in Olympic especially when its held in CHINA! :cool:

[jimbo]

I must sat that the quality of Linesmen for this TC/UC is good... coz sometimes i called/shouted out yet the birdie was "in" :eek::p But I'm sure that KOR or CHN team would "hire" me to be the linesman :D:D

Joke aside... No biased calls towards the host nation... kudos to the linesmen and umpires :)

[Woody]

I am a very infrequent visitor to this forum and have only just read this thread but I thought I would say a few things albeit very late.

I was one of 10 International Line Judges selected by BWF to officiate at this event. I was one of three from Europe, and the rest came from around the world. Unfortunately the persons selected from Canada and Africa failed to appear so there were only 8 of us there.

Yes we had to pay our own air fares but accommodation was provided and we were given a daily food allowance. In my case my air fares were in excess of £600 which I paid for myself.

At the event we joined some 50 local Indonesian Line Judges all of whom had woked at events previously. We were divided into teams and all five courts had ten line judges on court all of the time.

The briefing we received from the Refereeing team lead by Keith Hawthorne was that whenever Indonesia were on court in either competion then the Intenationals were to be used on that court. With only 8 of us and not being able to do 5 matchs on the bounce we were split into 5 and three plus the locals making up the other members of the on court team to ten.

Yes we rotated lines after every game so we never sat on the same line for two consecutive games.

The number of locals used was cut twice before the finals but the Internationals were used fully right through the event.

I have to say that I did not see any of the locals at any time give anything other than what they saw as the right decision. There were few if any over rules by the Umpires (whose standards varied considerably). In accordance with our instructions the unsighted signal was given where necessary by the Line Judge.

I saw only one or two 'disputed'calls one of which was given by a German International who afterwards was apologised to by one of the coaches concerned as the TV replays had shown the Line Judge was correct.

As for using 'Hawkeye' I was party to some discussions by high ranking BWF officials prior to this event who stated that they were considering using the system but at present it woul not be used.

For those wanting to be considered for the Olympics where there will be 10 used again you are far to late, the applications were accepted from November until January and selections were made in February. An example of the selection is that of the three selected from Europe one is a very experiencd Belgium Line Judge and the other two are Eastern European Umpires (what experience they have as LJ's I have no idea).

The other 60 plus LJ's will come from China.

or those who are interested in being a LJ at big events I suggest that you contact your National Association. There is no formal training other than in Australia although the BWF are considering introducing a formal system of training and acreditation. The problems are who is willing and able to give up 4/5 days at a time if not more and pay out considerable sums of money in travel.

Personally in the last season I have travelled from the UK to events in Norway, Manchester England, Austria, Denmark for European Champioinships and Indonesia for the T/U Cup finals.

[kwun]

Woody, thanks for sharing your experience with us. it is always nice to have dedicated people like yourself who is making badminton a better world by making small personal sacrifices that you mentioned.

[ctjcad]

..for sharing a bit of your personal experience and insights, Woody :cool:..Btw, just curious, will you be joining the badminton event, in the OG this yr?? if not as a LJ, maybe as a spectator??..:confused:

[Woody]

I am afraid I will not be there as a LJ or as a spectator.

I have worked as a Volunteer at the Manchester (England) Commonwealth Games in 2002, Melbourne (Australia) Commonwealth Games 2006 and the World Police and Fire Games in Adelaide (Australia) in 2007 so I have travelled extensively working as a general volunteer.

I did Volunteer for Beijing but did not get through the selection process. Unfortunately I did not find out I wasn't selected until the end of May 2008 far to late to make any other plans. As there was never any guarantee about the availablity of tickets for any events I was not prepared to travel on the off chance of geting tickets.

[Jayster16]

Hey there Woody! Good to hear the feedback you gave - i just joined up on BC forum ... finally! BTW I was one of the international Line Judges at the Thomas/Uber Cup - the one from Australia.

I am also an Umpire but not international level just yet. However, just to clarify over here in Australia we do not require Line Judges to be Umpires. We have many experienced Line Judges who have never umpired a single game but sacrifice their time by helping out at events around Australia and also abroad. I am very much an advocate that you do not have to be an umpire to be a very good Line Judge.

We had a great team over in Jakarta and I really enjoyed every minute of it :) A few of us even met some of the Badminton Central Crew over there like Louisa, Lou and Michelle (they are the only names i could remember - sorry bad memory!) who were also staying in the same hotel as us.

[Loh]

Hey there Woody! Good to hear the feedback you gave - i just joined up on BC forum ... finally! BTW I was one of the international Line Judges at the Thomas/Uber Cup - the one from Australia.

I am also an Umpire but not international level just yet. However, just to clarify over here in Australia we do not require Line Judges to be Umpires. We have many experienced Line Judges who have never umpired a single game but sacrifice their time by helping out at events around Australia and also abroad. I am very much an advocate that you do not have to be an umpire to be a very good Line Judge.

We had a great team over in Jakarta and I really enjoyed every minute of it :) A few of us even met some of the Badminton Central Crew over there like Louisa, Lou and Michelle (they are the only names i could remember - sorry bad memory!) who were also staying in the same hotel as us.

Hi there!

I remember who you are now as I think a group of us had a chance to exchange ideas with you at Century Park Hotel during the TC. You were formerly from England but now resides in Australia.

I was trying to go through my pictures to locate your face but I think I haven't worked hard enough as I failed. Sorry to misplace your email address too as I thought I could send you some pics.

Good to have you on board and hope to see your name more often. :)

[Woody]

Hi Jayster,

I remember our time in Jakarta very well. I have just done the Belgium International last week and the atmosphere was not the same.

I have been in touch since I returned with Greg your local Umpire a couple of times.

You will see that I have been poking my nose into various threads on this forum usually causing a little controversy but I don't normally visit it that often.

Glad to hear you enjoyed Jakarta as much as I did.

I am now given to understand that the 10 ITO's who did the Olympic Games have become official BWF Certified Line Judges. Quite how they differed from what we did in Indonesia I don't know.

[Jayster16]

Hi there!

I remember who you are now as I think a group of us had a chance to exchange ideas with you at Century Park Hotel during the TC. You were formerly from England but now resides in Australia.

I was trying to go through my pictures to locate your face but I think I haven't worked hard enough as I failed. Sorry to misplace your email address too as I thought I could send you some pics.

Good to have you on board and hope to see your name more often. :)

Yep - you got it spot on :) No worries its ok. Thanks :)

[Jayster16]

Hi Jayster,

I remember our time in Jakarta very well. I have just done the Belgium International last week and the atmosphere was not the same.

I have been in touch since I returned with Greg your local Umpire a couple of times.

You will see that I have been poking my nose into various threads on this forum usually causing a little controversy but I don't normally visit it that often.

Glad to hear you enjoyed Jakarta as much as I did.

I am now given to understand that the 10 ITO's who did the Olympic Games have become official BWF Certified Line Judges. Quite how they differed from what we did in Indonesia I don't know.

Hiya Woody, its going to be tough to match the atmosphere over in Jakarta! Yep Greg is actually from the same state as me here in OZ and is actually my mentor ;) Hey thats what forums are for i guess :) Well i know that BWF were considering having a level system for Line Judging and i guess it took until the Olympics to actually put it into place - its nothing different from what we had to do over in Jakarta ... its just all about timing i guess. i do actually know the LJ who went from Oceania and he is a very good experienced LJ and has been to many many tournaments so I'm happy for him. I'm actually thinking about coming over to uk for the European Team Champs in Liverpool around Feb next year - you going?

We had a very good team of international LJs over at the Thomas Cup and we all had fun and enjoyed the whole experience and great play that we witnessed and that is the main thing :)

[Woody]

Jayster,

Sorry I have been away on the QE2 in America and Canada for three weeks.

Visit the following link for the Europeans and e.mail the same person if you want to do the AE.

http://badmintonlja.googlepages.com/europeanteamevent