This is interesting news, China's Chen Jin's dad will be officiating Badminton matches at the Olympics. Apparently, he's a badminton fanatic and has been working towards becoming an official for quite some time now.

If it's true, it will raise some eyebrows, but I am sure he won't be officiating any of Chen Jin's matches right? :cool:

Sorry, too much to translate for me.
source: http://news.sina.com/405-000-105-106/2008-07-19/1251879630.html

I think he should not get involved in the MS event. Otherwise it's kind of awkward. :cool:

This is interesting news, China's Chen Jin's dad will be officiating Badminton matches at the Olympics. Apparently, he's a badminton fanatic and has been working towards becoming an official for quite some time now.

If it's true, it will raise some eyebrows, but I am sure he won't be officiating any of Chen Jin's matches right? :cool:

Sorry, too much to translate for me.
source: http://news.sina.com/405-000-105-106/2008-07-19/1251879630.html

This is interesting news, China's Chen Jin's dad will be officiating Badminton matches at the Olympics. Apparently, he's a badminton fanatic and has been working towards becoming an official for quite some time now.

If it's true, it will raise some eyebrows, but I am sure he won't be officiating any of Chen Jin's matches right? :cool:

Sorry, too much to translate for me.
source: http://news.sina.com/405-000-105-106/2008-07-19/1251879630.html
..as in he'll be one of the line-judges or umpires??..In the article, it mentions him being a "field referee"..:confused:
Here's the "amusing & free" translated version:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?lp=zt_en&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sina.com%2F405-000-105-106%2F2008-07-19%2F1251879630.html&doit=done&tt=url&intl=1

Indeed, is this permissible? :eek:

Isn't there a rule that bars officials from overseeing an event in which a direct or close relative is competing?

..as in he'll be one of the line-judges or umpires??..In the article, it mentions him being a "field referee"..:confused:
Here's the "amusing & free" translated version:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?lp=zt_en&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sina.com%2F405-000-105-106%2F2008-07-19%2F1251879630.html&doit=done&tt=url&intl=1

haha..
act the correct translation should be umpire.. :D

he shouldn't be allowed to adjudicate any matches involving CHN players

Not only this. He should not judge any MS matches not involving CHN players either.

The situation really is awkward. Why would anyone do this? :confused:

he shouldn't be allowed to adjudicate any matches involving CHN players

Indeed, is this permissible? :eek:

Isn't there a rule that bars officials from overseeing an event in which a direct or close relative is competing?
But this is China, remember? Looks like anyone the referee allows can be umpire? After all, isn't the chief referee the HKO one who addressed a complaint by shutting it up with 'This is China, what do you expect?'
Expect more unusuals. BWF is just a shell.

wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: (

Should write to Dennis Li and BWF.....I hope it will be fair....no more Cheng Du affair...

to be unbiased, we all can't predict what he will do and what he won't do...it will be awkward, but he could always call it down the line, no pun intended :p...if you just think that OMG he's chinese, all chinese players will win when he's umpiring or whatever, that's just way biased...you can make a similar argument like, Chen Jin is his son right? wouldn't he pressure him to win by a bigger margin by putting pressure on him with bad calls ;)

to be unbiased, we all can't predict what he will do and what he won't do...it will be awkward, but he could always call it down the line, no pun intended :p...if you just think that OMG he's chinese, all chinese players will win when he's umpiring or whatever, that's just way biased...you can make a similar argument like, Chen Jin is his son right? wouldn't he pressure him to win by a bigger margin by putting pressure on him with bad calls ;)

But it is to remove any doubts so that such questions of bias will not come about.

i didnt know chen jin`s father was an umpire !!

I don't know the exact rules regarding umpires, but I know Umpires are not allowed to officiate in games involving their own countrymen.

I see no reason why his dad cannot officiate in games that do not involve Chinese players.

he shouldn't be allowed to adjudicate any matches involving CHN players

Not only this. He should not judge any MS matches not involving CHN players either.

The situation really is awkward. Why would anyone do this? :confused:

But this is China, remember? Looks like anyone the referee allows can be umpire? After all, isn't the chief referee the HKO one who addressed a complaint by shutting it up with 'This is China, what do you expect?'
Expect more unusuals. BWF is just a shell.

I don't know the exact rules regarding umpires, but I know Umpires are not allowed to officiate in games involving their own countrymen.

I see no reason why his dad cannot officiate in games that do not involve Chinese players.
China Bolehhhhhhhhhhhhh..........!!! :D:D:D

China Bolehhhhhhhhhhhhh..........!!! :D:D:D

Does that mean we should stop any Umpire from any nation that is involved elsewhere in the badminton tournament from taking part?! If this is the case, then the standard of Umpiring will drop significantly.

The fact that it is CJ's Dad is irrelevant. IBF will judge whether or not he is fair and impartial and decide on which games he officiates at - which as stated before cannot include any match China is involved in.

Does that mean we should stop any Umpire from any nation that is involved elsewhere in the badminton tournament from taking part?! If this is the case, then the standard of Umpiring will drop significantly.

The fact that it is CJ's Dad is irrelevant. IBF will judge whether or not he is fair and impartial and decide on which games he officiates at - which as stated before cannot include any match China is involved in.
BWF is so uncertain.
CJ's dad can be umpire. exclude Chn matches and also pending to CJ's withdraw.

no problem, as long as he is not appointed line-judge, I think :D :D

/Twobeer

no problem, as long as he is not appointed line-judge, I think :D :D

/Twobeer

Exactly - Line Judges can officiate for their own countrymen, and he could even be drawn to judge CJ!!

Should write to Dennis Li and BWF.....I hope it will be fair....no more Cheng Du affair...

No point writing to Dennis Li. At least BWF still have a slim chance. Dennis Li? No chance at all.. to say it harsher..No chance in Hell.

China Bolehhhhhhhhhhhhh..........!!! :D:D:D
wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

What if CJ is in the semi (if he makes it) and then the other semi consist of two non-chinese players, can CJ's dad still be the umpire for the other semi eventhough there is no chinese player?

You guys are overly sensitive and junp on any opportunity. There are so many events and games in badminton. I am sure Chen's dad will not officiate any game that has a chance to favor China. If Chen's dad cannot be an official, then any Chinese cannot be an official by your logic. So chill out. Nothing bad will happen.

What if CJ is in the semi (if he makes it) and then the other semi consist of two non-chinese players, can CJ's dad still be the umpire for the other semi eventhough there is no chinese player?

Yes....why not?

You guys are overly sensitive and junp on any opportunity. There are so many events and games in badminton. I am sure Chen's dad will not officiate any game that has a chance to favor China. If Chen's dad cannot be an official, then any Chinese cannot be an official by your logic. So chill out. Nothing bad will happen.

I agree.

The Umpire has almost zero effect on the game. The Number of overules by umpires in tournaments can normally be counted on two hands, and this is the only real way an umpire can be impartial. Basically an umpire just calls the score and calls time during breaks..................not to say it is not an important position or I could do it!

How could CJ's dad benefit a CHN player in officiating in a Non-chn match? I don't know if anyone can tell me please do.

How could CJ's dad benefit a CHN player in officiating in a Non-chn match? I don't know if anyone can tell me please do.
To take this conspiracy theory further, here's a (fictional) scenario: ;)

CJ Senior officiates in a non-China match.
Let's assume this is a quarter-final... say, PSH vs BP.
(The winner will get to meet, say, BCL in the semi-final.)

CJ Senior doesn't allow PSH or BP any mid-game breaks (other than the regulation 11-pt breaks).
No towel breaks, no timeouts, no long mop sessions... none at all.

Let's also assume that PSH eventually wins the match.

He'll be extra extra tired going into the semifinal, won't he?
LYB (and BCL) will have CJ Senior to thank for that, won't he?

Aha! There you have the biggggggg conspiracy :D

Yes....why not?



CJ might have a preference on the next opponent and his dad is officiating the match of his next opponent. I don't know the BWF's rule but isn't there an issue of conflict of interest? It is just kind of dodgy there.

In soccer match this is not allowed (refereeing the match when the country of that particular referee is facing next), and there is no conspiracy.

Whats Chen Jin's father name?

most players are concerned about ON and OFF air condition..hope it wont happen this time...

frankly, what differences does it make? you will be sure that any Chinese umpire officiating in OG2008 will be "friend" of LYB anyway, whether that person is also a player's relative, is probably not too much of a difference.

all eyes will be on the beijing OG on fronts, environmental, game security, foods, housing, transportation, health, game fairness, etc. I doubt china would risk an black eye for this biggest showcase to the world.

This is interesting news, China's Chen Jin's dad will be officiating Badminton matches at the Olympics. Apparently, he's a badminton fanatic and has been working towards becoming an official for quite some time now.

If it's true, it will raise some eyebrows, but I am sure he won't be officiating any of Chen Jin's matches right? :cool:

Sorry, too much to translate for me.
source: http://news.sina.com/405-000-105-106/2008-07-19/1251879630.html

The question is not so much about whether he will officiate CJ's games. I am more concerned about him fixing other games to CJ's advantages. What about other officials or linesmen that CJ's dad might make friends with and indirectly influence them and these officials end up officiating CJ's games ???

By the way, is BFW short of officials? Or maybe this is how it ensures fair judging !

The question is not so much about whether he will officiate CJ's games. I am more concerned about him fixing other games to CJ's advantages. What about other officials or linesmen that CJ's dad might make friends with and indirectly influence them and these officials end up officiating CJ's games ???




Well, you can say that for anyone. Any xxx nation's umpire / staff can more or less "in theory" influence such and such if their nation to host any type of events.

So, no more CHN staff when the event is in CHN? Or, no more US staff when the event is in US? Or, name anything... :cool:

The question is not so much about whether he will officiate CJ's games. I am more concerned about him fixing other games to CJ's advantages. What about other officials or linesmen that CJ's dad might make friends with and indirectly influence them and these officials end up officiating CJ's games ???




Not to take any credits from Tony and Howard, then, I can suspect the same for WC2005, as it's hosted in US. I am sure many more US officials / line judges knows Howard more than any others. :cool:

To me, Tony and Howard to win WC is much more suprising than CJ wins OG (if he does). :rolleyes:

The question is not so much about whether he will officiate CJ's games. I am more concerned about him fixing other games to CJ's advantages. What about other officials or linesmen that CJ's dad might make friends with and indirectly influence them and these officials end up officiating CJ's games ???

By the way, is BFW short of officials? Or maybe this is how it ensures fair judging !i think officals from MAL, KOR, DEN, INA will gang up against CHN officals/players:pLOL

Ah? Since when Father-Son relation and Co-patriot relation can be treated the same? :eek:

If you know Chinese, you should know an old saying "Gua1Tian2Li3xia4", (watermelon field, under plum trees) meaning when you are walking by watermelon fields, do not fix your shoelaces (lest people suspect you are stealing watermelons); when you are under a plum tree, do not touch your hat (same thing, lest people suspect you are picking the plums).

In the situation being discussed here, no matter how decent a person CJ's father is, it is simply in-appropriate that he gets involved in the judgment of any match that can possibly affect CJ's chance to the MS title. :cool:

You guys are overly sensitive and junp on any opportunity. There are so many events and games in badminton. I am sure Chen's dad will not officiate any game that has a chance to favor China. If Chen's dad cannot be an official, then any Chinese cannot be an official by your logic. So chill out. Nothing bad will happen.

CJ Senior doesn't allow PSH or BP any mid-game breaks (other than the regulation 11-pt breaks).
No towel breaks, no timeouts, no long mop sessions... none at all.


Hmm... and then never officiate in a WBF tournament again and bring the whole game into disrepute and devalue the MS competition....I can't see him doing that.....Also all umpires tell players not to break. Players tend to do what they want.

CJ might have a preference on the next opponent and his dad is officiating the match of his next opponent. I don't know the BWF's rule but isn't there an issue of conflict of interest? It is just kind of dodgy there.


I still can't see how he can make one player beat the other? does he give them a team talk? call the score wrong?

I still can't see how he can make one player beat the other? does he give them a team talk? call the score wrong?

Not that i am against CJ, if he is capable of winning it all the way i am sure he prefers his dad has never involved in officiating any of the matches. You will know what i mean if you are a father of your own kid, i apology in advance if that is not the case. I merely stating that it is the case of conflict of interest. Anyone with half a brain understands that dumb act like call a score wrong isn't going to help his career in officiating.

Just think about it. If PSH's father is judging LD vs. LHI, what would LD think? Wouldn't LD feel very uncomfortable? In fact, LHI may not feel comfortable either since even if he won fair and square, people will suspect that's not the case.

Besides, there are many things an umpire can do. From whether a player can take a towel break to whether a shuttle can be changed to (most blatant one) overruling some close calls.

I still can't see how he can make one player beat the other? does he give them a team talk? call the score wrong?

I don't think we should discuss what "may" happen since we have no idea what kind of person CJ's father is. He may be a person who sticks to his principles and when on court will throw away the thought that his son is competing.

But, no matter what kind of person he is, it's an awkward situation if he judges any of the MS matches. The simple fact that he is CJ's father may affect the players psychologically.

Not that i am against CJ, if he is capable of winning it all the way i am sure he prefers his dad has never involved in officiating any of the matches. You will know what i mean if you are a father of your own kid, i apology in advance if that is not the case. I merely stating that it is the case of conflict of interest. Anyone with half a brain understands that dumb act like call a score wrong isn't going to help his career in officiating.

I don't think we should discuss what "may" happen since we have no idea what kind of person CJ's father is. He may be a person who sticks to his principles and when on court will throw away the thought that his son is competing.

But, no matter what kind of person he is, it's an awkward situation if he judges any of the MS matches. The simple fact that he is CJ's father may affect the players psychologically.

It is the awkward situation that you mentioned which make us wonder what may happen if CJ's dad is officating the match. Otherwise this subject shouldn't have even started in the first hand.

No matter how honest CJ senior is, ppl will magnify what he does as he is CJ's father....I support the watermelon & plum tree theory...

No matter how honest CJ senior is, ppl will magnify what he does as he is CJ's father....I support the watermelon & plum tree theory...
I support Durian and jackfruit....:D:D smell outside but yummy...:p:p

I support Durian and jackfruit....:D:D smell outside but yummy...:p:p
hahahaha.....you like to joke around.....a good one, hauge.....Kuching is famous of durian, too....

When are you leaving to see CJ senior in action?

hahahaha.....you like to joke around.....a good one, hauge.....Kuching is famous of durian, too....

When are you leaving to see CJ senior in action?
I am not going..................:crying:

hahahaha.....you like to joke around.....a good one, hauge.....Kuching is famous of durian, too....

When are you leaving to see CJ senior in action?
cat also got eat durian 1 meh??:D:D

cat also got eat durian 1 meh??:D:Di can say this cat can eat watermelons and plums:D

cat also got eat durian 1 meh??:D:D
CAT also watch badminton, why can't cat eat durian?????

We are discussing the credibility of CJ senior being badminton official in OG08.....not to discuss durian eating here....you want to be banned? I don't want...:D:D:D

while waiting for more hot and juicy posts a while more, we need some cool down 1st here:D:D
...
erm mod, pls dont ban me:D:D:D

while waiting for more hot and juicy posts a while more, we need some cool down 1st here:D:D
...
erm mod, pls dont ban me:D:D:D
hahahaha....what hot n juicy post you are expecting?????

We are not suppose to discredit CJ senior here, but, we can't deny the fact that ppl feel weird knowing that CJ senior is the official despite CJ taking part in the game...

Anyway, are we so sure that CJ senior will be the umpire, service judge or linesman? (sorry, no time to read thru all the comment made before)...

Some of you made a very good point, this is really not about judging father CJ's integrity or how fair he is going to be. Believe me, its more than that. This is about the reputation of BWF as well, its mission, and its policies.

OK back to CJ, if he won the gold medal, what would some of us think about the validity of his victories ???

Whats Chen Jin's father name?
..as translated from the article, is Chen Yong..:confused:

Some of you made a very good point, this is really not about judging father CJ's integrity or how fair he is going to be. Believe me, its more than that. This is about the reputation of BWF as well, its mission, and its policies.

OK back to CJ, if he won the gold medal, what would some of us think about the validity of his victories ???

I would think he has won all his games and deserved the Gold. I don't think it has anything to do with WBF's reputation. Surely his dad will have followed the steps required to be a top level umpire?

Just think about it. If PSH's father is judging LD vs. LHI, what would LD think? Wouldn't LD feel very uncomfortable? In fact, LHI may not feel comfortable either since even if he won fair and square, people will suspect that's not the case.

Besides, there are many things an umpire can do. From whether a player can take a towel break to whether a shuttle can be changed to (most blatant one) overruling some close calls.

We have already been through this PSH father couldn't as he would be KOR and LHI is also KOR.

Like I said before players take little notice of umpires about towel breaks and wipe down anyway. Umpires often decide not to change shuttles, does this mean all the umpirs are biased?! and like I said before the total number of overules in an entire tournament can be normally counted on two hands. This isn't really going to make a vast difference even if this happened.

Not that i am against CJ, if he is capable of winning it all the way i am sure he prefers his dad has never involved in officiating any of the matches. You will know what i mean if you are a father of your own kid, i apology in advance if that is not the case

I am not so I don't understand......

Whats Chen Jin's father name?

He is Chen2 Yong3, from what I read in the article.

I think it's a no issue whether Chen Yong is the umpire or not. We have to treat all umpires as professional if they are roped in to judge the match. However, to avoid any dispute, he should not be the umpire for any matches that involve Chen Jin.

he should not be the umpire for any matches that involve Chen Jin.

If you read the rest of the thread this is the case.

No Umpire can adjudicate in a match that involves one or more of his compatriots.

Yes....why not?



I agree.

The Umpire has almost zero effect on the game. The Number of overules by umpires in tournaments can normally be counted on two hands, and this is the only real way an umpire can be impartial. Basically an umpire just calls the score and calls time during breaks..................not to say it is not an important position or I could do it!

How could CJ's dad benefit a CHN player in officiating in a Non-chn match? I don't know if anyone can tell me please do.
In KO08, the number of overrules can be counted on one hand.If there had been none,LD probably would not have been able to play his badminton and the match would have ended much faster like what happened to LCW in CO07.

Tell the korean line judges that -.- korea open...lmao @ line judges in MS final

Well, assume PSH's father is judging one SF of LD vs Sony, while PSH will very likely won in the other SF. Do you think it's appropriate?

In fact, suppose LD vs BCL in one SF, and CJ has won the other. Do you think LD will feel comfortable if CJ's father is judging his match (given that CJ's chance is definitely bigger facing BCL in the final)?

An umpire can affect the game -- that is for sure. Especially now umpires can overrule any of line judge's decisions, besides calling "receiving fault" (Aha! this one kills! Easy point and no one can be sure. :D) and "hit over the net" (remember CO MSF? ;)) and "touch the net" and many more, thus an umpire can definitely affect the game more than any single line judge.

We have already been through this PSH father couldn't as he would be KOR and LHI is also KOR.

Like I said before players take little notice of umpires about towel breaks and wipe down anyway. Umpires often decide not to change shuttles, does this mean all the umpirs are biased?! and like I said before the total number of overules in an entire tournament can be normally counted on two hands. This isn't really going to make a vast difference even if this happened.



I am not so I don't understand......

Why much faster? If there was no overrule, LHI may got a few more points but the match would still be 3 games. :confused:

In KO08, the number of overrules can be counted on one hand.If there had been none,LD probably would not have been able to play his badminton and the match would have ended much faster like what happened to LCW in CO07.

CJ's dad, if he's allowed to officiates, is likely for doubles. I doubt he would be doing any MS match at all. Some of u are too paranoided

First, is there any information to back up your claim that he will judge doubles?

Second, if you read what I said, I said it's in-appropriate for him to judge any MS matches. Anything wrong with that? And mind you, the post you quoted, is written because Mr. James20d said it's Ok for CJ's dad to judge an MS match as long as no Chinese MSs are involved.

Finally, what I (and many other people) am discussing about here is the situation -- whether it's appropriate for a direct relative of one participating player to be an umpire in the tournament. So as I said, it's not really about CJ's father, it's about the situation, about the system.

P.S. You, again, are doing PA here. :cool:

CJ's dad, if he's allowed to officiates, is likely for doubles. I doubt he would be doing any MS match at all. Some of u are too paranoided

First, is there any information to back up your claim that he will judge doubles?

Second, if you read what I said, I said it's in-appropriate for him to judge any MS matches. Anything wrong with that? And mind you, the post you quoted, is written because Mr. James20d said it's Ok for CJ's dad to judge an MS match as long as no Chinese MSs are involved.

Finally, what I (and many other people) am discussing about here is the situation -- whether it's appropriate for a direct relative of one participating player to be an umpire in the tournament. So as I said, it's not really about CJ's father, it's about the situation, about the system.

P.S. You, again, are doing PA here. :cool:it was just my general comments. I shouldn't have attached your post. I think this OG is a showcase to the world. I doubt china want to risk CJ's dad doing MS matches. We'll see.

...on this story...:p
I just hope, after all the Finals' events have been concluded, we won't find out that some of the (local) line-judges are actually far relatives of Chen Jin (or any CHN players)....There could be some eyes rolling in BC, if that were to happen...:p ;)
Good thing we found out about Chen Jin's dad volunteering his time, prior to the start of the Olympics..:cool:

Well, assume PSH's father is judging one SF of LD vs Sony, while PSH will very likely won in the other SF. Do you think it's appropriate?

In fact, suppose LD vs BCL in one SF, and CJ has won the other. Do you think LD will feel comfortable if CJ's father is judging his match (given that CJ's chance is definitely bigger facing BCL in the final)?



For the former, yes I think it is fine. I still don't see how an umpire can make a player beat another. If LD is so much better than the other even if (and it is a big if) the umpire is biased the most he can give is a couple of points, and if LD is so much better he wouldn't need those points anyhow.

And like I said if he has gone through all the processes to becoming an umpire then I can't see nyone giving this away for a few cheap points so their relative can play a different top class player to the one he prefers. And if the player knew this happened, chances are he would be so mentally distracted he would lose anyhow.

Quite frankly linejudges are somewhat expected to be biased, they are generally volunteers and supporters of their countrypersons. Umpires are professional and will hav gone through years of training and different statue tournements to get this. Like cooler says I tihnk we are simply getting paranoid about this


for the latter the situation is the same CJ's dad couldn't officiate as he is the same nationality

For the former, yes I think it is fine. I still don't see how an umpire can make a player beat another. If LD is so much better than the other even if (and it is a big if) the umpire is biased the most he can give is a couple of points, and if LD is so much better he wouldn't need those points anyhow.

And like I said if he has gone through all the processes to becoming an umpire then I can't see nyone giving this away for a few cheap points so their relative can play a different top class player to the one he prefers. And if the player knew this happened, chances are he would be so mentally distracted he would lose anyhow.

Quite frankly linejudges are somewhat expected to be biased, they are generally volunteers and supporters of their countrypersons. Umpires are professional and will hav gone through years of training and different statue tournements to get this. Like cooler says I tihnk we are simply getting paranoid about this


for the latter the situation is the same CJ's dad couldn't officiate as he is the same nationality

I dont mean to be rude here....but have you ever played in tournaments with umpires and linesmen on court ? I just wanted to emphasize how much those officials could affect the psychology of players. It could have determistic effect to boost players' confidence level ....or destroy it.

But this is China, remember? Looks like anyone the referee allows can be umpire? After all, isn't the chief referee the HKO one who addressed a complaint by shutting it up with 'This is China, what do you expect?'
Expect more unusuals. BWF is just a shell.

Indeed, for some people, it would be a big disappointment if everything goes smoothly in Beijing 2008 (no scandles, no bombs, no protests, no arrests, ...).

I dont mean to be rude here....but have you ever played in tournaments with umpires and linesmen on court ? I just wanted to emphasize how much those officials could affect the psychology of players. It could have determistic effect to boost players' confidence level ....or destroy it.

The answer to your first question is no..................

But even if this is the case (which I think this only really happens in cases of weak minded players eg.. LWW/CTF and CH) they how would this situation exacerbate this?

If CJ's Dad or any other family member of another player Officiates a KOR/MAS match why would one of the players take specific offence to having someone elses family member from a completely different country officiating? and why would the umpire want to favour one over the other? surely both players are as strong as each other to be in this situation and if one is stronger then they should win easily:confused:

Probably we have to agree to disagree here, but I think people are wrong to question the integrity of umpires and players in thinking that they (umpires) can be manipulatied into match fixing and that the players would manipulate an official in another match to favour the results towards themselves.

It is not about Chen Jin. This is about China.

Why much faster? If there was no overrule, LHI may got a few more points but the match would still be 3 games. :confused:
Would still be 3 games but shorter or fewer rallies since LD would be too upset to play on (He was already upset even with umpire's corrections)so shorter match time although outcome still the same, unlike CO07 MSF.

The answer to your first question is no..................

But even if this is the case (which I think this only really happens in cases of weak minded players eg.. LWW/CTF and CH) they how would this situation exacerbate this?

If CJ's Dad or any other family member of another player Officiates a KOR/MAS match why would one of the players take specific offence to having someone elses family member from a completely different country officiating? and why would the umpire want to favour one over the other? surely both players are as strong as each other to be in this situation and if one is stronger then they should win easily:confused:

Probably we have to agree to disagree here, but I think people are wrong to question the integrity of umpires and players in thinking that they (umpires) can be manipulatied into match fixing and that the players would manipulate an official in another match to favour the results towards themselves.
Well, you know how badly affected LD was in KO08 MSF. Would that mean LD's weak minded?
I agree that people are wrong to question the integrity of umpires.That's provided the umpires have integrity.From what we have seen so far, BWF umpire standards are more subjective than objective and spans the whole spectrum.It's like up to each umpire to set their own standard.The one in CO07 MSF was a joke. Well, he got rewarded with at least an incentive trip.He led the CHN team in TC.I never knew an umpire can also double up in that kind of role.
As for CJ's father, how long has he been an umpire?From nowhere, he became good enough to umpire in OG08? What kind of standard is that? Don't you think OG08 should have umpires of the highest standards instead of unheard of locals?

Well, you know how badly affected LD was in KO08 MSF. Would that mean LD's weak minded?

As for CJ's father, how long has he been an umpire?From nowhere, he became good enough to umpire in OG08? What kind of standard is that? Don't you think OG08 should have umpires of the highest standards instead of unheard of locals?

In that particular case, yes LD was weakminded - I am sure you will agree he totally lost it!

Yes your second point is quite valid if he has not followed the career path & the approved testing procedures, but as we do not know this we cannot speculate on this kind of thing.

Ants: The thread is a news story about CJ's dad, and the thread has diverted into a discussion about nationality issues and relationships between players & umpires. This thread is not about China. It would be the same if LCW's dad was an umpire in OG '08.

In that particular case, yes LD was weakminded - I am sure you will agree he totally lost it!

Yes your second point is quite valid if he has not followed the career path & the approved testing procedures, but as we do not know this we cannot speculate on this kind of thing.

Ants: The thread is a news story about CJ's dad, and the thread has diverted into a discussion about nationality issues and relationships between players & umpires. This thread is not about China. It would be the same if LCW's dad was an umpire in OG '08.

You have a point there. But knowing China ( no pun intended ), its about Patriotism.
But at the same time i would also be suspicious that his dad was not a known umpire in China and was suddently upgraded to involve in the Olympic badminton.

But at the same time i would also be suspicious that his dad was not a known umpire in China and was suddently upgraded to involve in the Olympic badminton.

Exactly what I said in the first half of the post you quoted, But as I said there, we cannot speculate on this as we don't have the information on his experience.

...
As for CJ's father, how long has he been an umpire?From nowhere, he became good enough to umpire in OG08? What kind of standard is that? Don't you think OG08 should have umpires of the highest standards instead of unheard of locals?
...
Yes your second point is quite valid if he has not followed the career path & the approved testing procedures, but as we do not know this we cannot speculate on this kind of thing.
...
..well, according to the "amusing & free" online translation, it says that he received his OG referee "certification" in April (was it this yr?? or in 2006??).
Story line goes something like this: he received a call to attend the OG referee training in 2006. He actually was pondering about whether or not to be an OG referee in 2001, after China won the bid to host the 2008 Olympics & after he realized Chen Jin had a chance to play in the Olympics. In short, it was like a dream to Chen Yong.

**Our ye333 might be able to translate for us a bit better??..:confused::cool:

"Olympic Games interpret a dream

　　On the other hand a on the one hand busy work is the referee in the domestic each big sports event, repeatedly succeeds in the imperial civil service examination system in each big sports event, the father with sub-is pursuing each other's footsteps mutually, a group dashes about wildly on the ideal path.

　　In 2001, Beijing Olympic bid was successful, Chen Yong had a dream wants to join forces with the son in the Olympic Games athletic field. Chen Yong felt obviously, the son moves toward Olympic Games is the sooner or later matter, but whether do move toward Beijing by referee's status?

　　In June, 2006, Chen Yong has received the Hebei Province pingpong feather center telephone, hoped that he represented Hebei to go to Beijing to participate in Olympic Games referee's training, Chen Yong adopted the inspection smoothly, and “lucky Beijing” in the warm-up match has completed the law enforcement task splendidly in April. Can 夠 enforce the law at Beijing Olympic Games, Chen Yong suppresses in heart's excitement, son Chen Jin competes in Olympic Games is also ninety percent sure with difficulty, perhaps under the olympic flag, will be fathers and sons badminton enterprise's magnificent occurring together."

927432 He actually was pondering about whether or not to be an OG referee in 2001, after China won the bid to host the 2008 Olympics & after he realized Chen Jin had a chance to play in the Olympics. In short, it was like a dream to Chen Yong.


He would have been pretty upset if CJ hadn't quite qualified (it was pretty close). Seven years of training for nothing!

In the latter case, both LD and BCL are from China, so it shouldn't matter that the umpire is from China too since to him it doesn't matter who wins -- but the situation becomes different if the result does matter to the umpire.

Also I am a bit disappointed that you neglected my last paragraph. I have listed many ways an umpire can affect the match, and my conclusion is that the umpire, with his ability to overrule any line calls, can affect a game more than any single line judge -- if not more than all the line judges put together -- because in theory, the umpire can make whatever calls he likes and there is no one to overrule his calls. (As I always said, we are talking about the situation here, it's not exactly about CJ's father, it's about what kind of restrictions are appropriate in such situations. The purpose of any such restriction should be to prevent the worst from happening)

I agree that the umpire cannot make one player beat the other if the other is overall better. But how about the 50-50 case? Arguably, the 07 China Masters MDF, which should be 50-50, became a bit one-sided due to several "service faults" and "receiving faults". Also, according to the same logic, biased line judges are not a problem either, unless you disagree with my opinion that nowadays the umpire is more powerful than the line judges.

For the former, yes I think it is fine. I still don't see how an umpire can make a player beat another. If LD is so much better than the other even if (and it is a big if) the umpire is biased the most he can give is a couple of points, and if LD is so much better he wouldn't need those points anyhow.

And like I said if he has gone through all the processes to becoming an umpire then I can't see nyone giving this away for a few cheap points so their relative can play a different top class player to the one he prefers. And if the player knew this happened, chances are he would be so mentally distracted he would lose anyhow.

Quite frankly linejudges are somewhat expected to be biased, they are generally volunteers and supporters of their countrypersons. Umpires are professional and will hav gone through years of training and different statue tournements to get this. Like cooler says I tihnk we are simply getting paranoid about this


for the latter the situation is the same CJ's dad couldn't officiate as he is the same nationality

Also I am a bit disappointed that you neglected my last paragraph. I have listed many ways an umpire can affect the match, and my conclusion is that the umpire, with his ability to overrule any line calls, can affect a game more than any single line judge -- if not more than all the line judges put together -- because in theory, the umpire can make whatever calls he likes and there is no one to overrule his calls. (As I always said, we are talking about the situation here, it's not exactly about CJ's father, it's about what kind of restrictions are appropriate in such situations. The purpose of any such restriction should be to prevent the worst from happening)

I agree that the umpire cannot make one player beat the other if the other is overall better. But how about the 50-50 case? Arguably, the 07 China Masters MDF, which should be 50-50, became a bit one-sided due to several "service faults" and "receiving faults". Also, according to the same logic, biased line judges are not a problem either, unless you disagree with my opinion that nowadays the umpire is more powerful than the line judges.

This discussion is somewhat diluted by the revelation the service judge can overrule any umpire decision but anyhow:

Yes the umpire can make more decisions than the linejudges, but how many calls do the line judges make and how many get overruled, I would say significantly less than 5%. Yes they can call receiving fault, touch the net and service fault, but again how many times does this happen? and in most cases they are probably right, the amount of times people have receiving faults and are not called is often something I have wondered why.

I agree the Umpire could affect the game more than any line judges, but in all but the very few the linejudges have the most impact.


Also regarding service faults and receiving faults I have seen players being consistently being called by some umpire and not by others at the AE, and to my knowledge they weren't called by a relative or friend of the opposition or future opposition.

In the latter case, both LD and BCL are from China, so it shouldn't matter that the umpire is from China too since to him it doesn't matter who wins -- but the situation becomes different if the result does matter to the umpire.

Also I am a bit disappointed that you neglected my last paragraph. I have listed many ways an umpire can affect the match, and my conclusion is that the umpire, with his ability to overrule any line calls, can affect a game more than any single line judge -- if not more than all the line judges put together -- because in theory, the umpire can make whatever calls he likes and there is no one to overrule his calls. (As I always said, we are talking about the situation here, it's not exactly about CJ's father, it's about what kind of restrictions are appropriate in such situations. The purpose of any such restriction should be to prevent the worst from happening)

I agree that the umpire cannot make one player beat the other if the other is overall better. But how about the 50-50 case? Arguably, the 07 China Masters MDF, which should be 50-50, became a bit one-sided due to several "service faults" and "receiving faults". Also, according to the same logic, biased line judges are not a problem either, unless you disagree with my opinion that nowadays the umpire is more powerful than the line judges.


All the assumptions here are on the bad side, don't you think that we are giving Chen Yong extra pressure than anyone else? Basically, regardless who won the games he's part of, you can say the final result is effected.

I agree that CJ should not receive any "benefit" due to the fact that CY is an official. However, CJ and CY should not be "punished" for both of their own achievement (qualifed as a player / official) simply because they are fathers and sons.

Think about this, say your parents are well-known professors of a great university in your home town. As a little kid, your dream is to attend the best university as possible. After many years of study, you are qualified to attend the university. However, someone now screaming say, "xxx should not attend the same college as his parents are working here." "xxx gets A in his class, because the parents are teachers, they are teaching or their buddies are teaching the course". "yyy gets failed in his parents class, because everyone knows xxx and yyy don't get along..."

Do you think you will be comfortable to hear all such and such even before you attend the class? Do you think the university should simply reject you, or fire your parents, simply because others putting up "assumptions"? :cool::rolleyes:

CJ's career goal is to become a great player. CY's career goal is to become a qualifed official. Now both of them achieved the goal after years of hard work.

However, now they are facing extra among of pressure when they are working, as anything they do, they have to face questions of "is that anything related with later round"...

Great award for the Chen's family. 1 winner of the family, GREAT! 2 winners of the family, LOSERS... :(

all this is 'guilty by association'.
If non-chinese MS players like LCW,TH,SDK, etc hope to win in the OG, u better hope they are not mentally weak as their angry fans.

All the assumptions here are on the bad side, don't you think that we are giving Chen Yong extra pressure than anyone else? Basically, regardless who won the games he's part of, you can say the final result is effected.

I agree that CJ should not receive any "benefit" due to the fact that CY is an official. However, CJ and CY should not be "punished" for both of their own achievement (qualifed as a player / official) simply because they are fathers and sons.

Think about this, say your parents are well-known professors of a great university in your home town. As a little kid, your dream is to attend the best university as possible. After many years of study, you are qualified to attend the university. However, someone now screaming say, "xxx should not attend the same college as his parents are working here." "xxx gets A in his class, because the parents are teachers, they are teaching or their buddies are teaching the course". "yyy gets failed in his parents class, because everyone knows xxx and yyy don't get along..."

Do you think you will be comfortable to hear all such and such even before you attend the class? Do you think the university should simply reject you, or fire your parents, simply because others putting up "assumptions"? :cool::rolleyes:

This is not a question about "speculation" or "fairness", this is reality whether you like it or now. BTW, have you heard about people saying "he is living under his father's shadow ". CY can pursue his dreams as the best umpire or whatever official you want to call it, in the world ... but is it APPROPRIATE to do so in major tournament like OG ??? If this were some other GPs or SS that CJ is not playing....two words...WHO CARES.

I have made my position quite clear that I think it is ok.

I understand fans position who think it is not however. In the eyes of some people if he doesn't overule he will have an ulterior motive and if he does overule it will be the same. He (CY) cannot win.......and the sceptics will never lose.

The bottom line is Umpires decisions and players mentality has affected the game beforeand will in the future regardless of who the umpire is. We just have to trust that the selection procedure in WBF is robust enough to promote only the most impartial umpires. Our issue must be with the robustness of these procedures through WBF not the umpire/service judge.

As I have said many many many many times, we are discussing a situation, or more precisely, we are discussing the system here. When doing this, we have to assume that any bad thing that is not forbidden can indeed happen.

Otherwise why we all agree that line judges should not be from the same country as the players? Does that mean we believe all line judges are bad, are biased? Obviously not. But the purpose of any "law" is to prevent the worst from happening, so when discussing these "law"s, we have to assume the worst.

And you are right in that, CY being umpire to any match that can affect CJ's chance is inappropriate exactly because no matter how unbiased he is, he will be subject to suspicion -- because the results of the matches matters to him personally.

There is indeed a very simple resolution. As cooler suggested, CY can judge MD, WD, XD, WS. In all those events he is simply another umpire from China, his identity as CJ's father is not important there.


All the assumptions here are on the bad side, don't you think that we are giving Chen Yong extra pressure than anyone else? Basically, regardless who won the games he's part of, you can say the final result is effected.

I agree that CJ should not receive any "benefit" due to the fact that CY is an official. However, CJ and CY should not be "punished" for both of their own achievement (qualifed as a player / official) simply because they are fathers and sons.

Think about this, say your parents are well-known professors of a great university in your home town. As a little kid, your dream is to attend the best university as possible. After many years of study, you are qualified to attend the university. However, someone now screaming say, "xxx should not attend the same college as his parents are working here." "xxx gets A in his class, because the parents are teachers, they are teaching or their buddies are teaching the course". "yyy gets failed in his parents class, because everyone knows xxx and yyy don't get along..."

Do you think you will be comfortable to hear all such and such even before you attend the class? Do you think the university should simply reject you, or fire your parents, simply because others putting up "assumptions"? :cool::rolleyes:

As I have said many many many many times, we are discussing a situation, or more precisely, we are discussing the system here. When doing this, we have to assume that any bad thing that is not forbidden can indeed happen.

Otherwise why we all agree that line judges should not be from the same country as the players? Does that mean we believe all line judges are bad, are biased? Obviously not. But the purpose of any "law" is to prevent the worst from happening, so when discussing these "law"s, we have to assume the worst.

And you are right in that, CY being umpire to any match that can affect CJ's chance is inappropriate exactly because no matter how unbiased he is, he will be subject to suspicion -- because the results of the matches matters to him personally.

There is indeed a very simple resolution. As cooler suggested, CY can judge MD, WD, XD, WS. In all those events he is simply another umpire from China, his identity as CJ's father is not important there.

Here you go....if CY were to judge MD, XD, WD, WS....then I don't see where the issue is. It is more than appropriate to do so as long as the correlation is weak.

This is not a question about "speculation" or "fairness", this is reality whether you like it or now. BTW, have you heard about people saying "he is living under his father's shadow ". CY can pursue his dreams as the best umpire or whatever official you want to call it, in the world ... but is it APPROPRIATE to do so in major tournament like OG ??? If this were some other GPs or SS that CJ is not playing....two words...WHO CARES.


As an official, OG might be the highest level of achievement. Just because his son is also qualified, so he will be strip the right? You tell me if you work 7 years, and because your son participate in a lot of tournament, you can at most official a regional or club level game, is that great feeling?

Tell me this, if my "university case" applies to you, tell me the solution is either you end up go to a bad college or your parents lose their job. Do you like the fact?

And you are right in that, CY being umpire to any match that can affect CJ's chance is inappropriate exactly because no matter how unbiased he is, he will be subject to suspicion -- because the results of the matches matters to him personally.



Matter to him personally? If that's the case, you should fire all CHN staff, as they can simply poison non-CHN players food, and let CHN get all the gold without even a single match. If you want to talk about "assumption", I can assume anything such as Mars attacks.

There's only 1 OG in 4 yrs, because they are relatives, one have to give up his dream?

In MLB, Ken Griffy Jr. plays for Reds, and his dad is an assistant coach for the same team. No one says, Sr. gives the Jrs. less work out or gives him more playing time at a cost of others. Mike Dunleavy Jr. players in NBA, the SR is a coach. No one said the Sr. uses his "buddies" to make the son's career to be smoother. The Sr. never suspend any players, when they beat his son's team, or fault his son during a game.

Actually, in western world, if the family (father and son, brothers, sisters, etc) are in the same sports, they consider it as an honor. Now, in our conversation, it becomes a shame, and "assumption". :cool:

Anyway its still too early to asy anything against Chen Jin's dad guys. We are talking as if he is a criminal or something. Maybe he is really passionate about umpiring and would want to contribute his time to badminton in anyway. Just cool it off alright people?

Poor China, I got a feeling they are going to be blasted for biased umpiring no matter what.

As an official, OG might be the highest level of achievement. Just because his son is also qualified, so he will be strip the right? You tell me if you work 7 years, and because your son participate in a lot of tournament, you can at most official a regional or club level game, is that great feeling?

Tell me this, if my "university case" applies to you, tell me the solution is either you end up go to a bad college or your parents lose their job. Do you like the fact?

You missed my point, I don't think there is any problems having CY officiate all other matches but MS. Also, your "university case" is a very bad example. A better example would be as a student, CJ participated in a debate with CY serving as a judge.

You missed my point, I don't think there is any problems having CY officiate all other matches but MS. Also, your "university case" is a very bad example. A better example would be as a student, CJ participated in a debate with CY serving as a judge.


Seeing as CJ is his son, I would imagine he knows LYB (personally), therfore by the personal definition he cannot officiate in any category unless there are no CHN competitors.

I am sure the MAS, KOR, DEN umpires know the Danish players personally too, since they are likely to be heavily involved in the badminton scene in their respective country.

In my opinion, even Chen Jin's father as the umpire when He do the matches, I'm SURE that His father will be fair even when his son matches..... Because OG is a BIG event in the world, so China won't be let the negative news appear on every newspaper in the world about the unfairness of umpire..... So, Chen Jin's father will do the fairness and reponsble to his job as umpire...... Don't judge too much to Chen Jin and His father.... And who knows when Chen Jin do the matches but the umpire is not His father?

In my opinion, even Chen Jin's father as the umpire when He do the matches, I'm SURE that His father will be fair even when his son matches..... Because OG is a BIG event in the world, so China won't be let the negative news appear on every newspaper in the world about the unfairness of umpire..... So, Chen Jin's father will do the fairness and reponsble to his job as umpire...... Don't judge too much to Chen Jin and His father.... And who knows when Chen Jin do the matches but the umpire is not His father?
i'm agree with you...
it's not happen yet....
so just wait and see..