Hooray..Back to the old points system..BUT!!!

[adelina76]

I just found out that IBM has revert back to the old point system of 3x15 which is good..always thought the 7x5 was a bit silly..BUT..

I am sooooooo annoyed that they are going to reduce the points for women's doubles and mix doubles to ELEVEN (11) points!! What are they thinking! That's downright sexism and discrimination! Okey, fine, for telecasting purposes, I can understand that watching the women's doubles isn't exactly heart pumping and stopping event, (although I always thought watching Gei Fei and Gei Chun from China playing doubles were very entertaining), still, it is not fair!!!! It is bad enough they dont' think we are good enough to play to 15 points in the singles, but to reduce women's doubles to 11 points? It's an outrage! :( GRRRRRRRRR...

sorry.. :( just needed to vent that frustration..*POUT* :mad:

[kwun]

the IBF committee seems to have trouble explaining the decision. here is the minutes from the AGM (annual general meeting) held in Guangzhou during the TC/UC. i haven't read the whole thing, perhaps someone can read through it and try to make some sense out of the decision:

MINUTES of the INTERNATIONAL BADMINTON FEDERATION
ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING
held in the Garden Hotel, Guangzhou (CHN)
at 10 hours on SUNDAY 12 MAY 2002

PRESIDENTS OPENING REMARKS
1. The President welcomed everyone to Guangzhou for the 2002 Annual General Meeting of the International Badminton Federation. The President thanked the China Badmin-ton Association and the Guangzhou Organising Committee of the 2002 Thomas and Uber Cups for all their hard work and preparations towards staging the event.
2. The President acknowledged that some delegates might find the AGM a difficult envi-ronment in which to make a contribution, but urged all those present to participate fully in the meetings proceedings. The President highlighted to delegates the fact that there were several important items included on the order paper and that their votes and opinions were also very important.
3. The President took the opportunity to recap on the programme he had established upon election as IBF President in Seville, Spain:
Increased visibility
4. Throughout the year, with the assistance of the Executive Board, the President had be-en working to raise the visibility of badminton in the eyes of the world. The United Na-tions had established a programme to promote sport as a means of bringing world pe-ace and the President was pleased to report that badminton could be officially inclu-ded in this programme. The President had travelled to Guangzhou directly from a UN meeting in New York during which he had the opportunity to meet UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and examine ways in which badminton could cooperate worldwi-de with the nine UN agencies. The Executive Board and the Chief Executive had been charged with pursuing this.
5. Badminton was one of the 28 Olympic sports included on the Olympic programme for Athens and Beijing, and the President was committed to ensuring that badminton would retain its Olympic status during the years to come. Along with the other ASOIF sports, the IBF was in dialogue with ASOIF President Mr Denis Oswald on how they could work together to their mutual benefit, and the President was particularly keen to pro-gress the issue of the allocation of Olympic funds among the sports.
6. During a recent visit to Guangzhou the President had met with IOC President Dr Jacques Rogge and he would continue his dialogue with Dr Rogge and other IOC members for the benefit of badminton. The President appealed to the Member Asso-ciations and delegates for their participation in this campaign by working to raise awareness of badminton with IOC members.
7. Sandra Baldwin, President of the US Olympic Committee, had accepted the Presidents invitation to join the badminton family in Guangzhou, and during meetings scheduled for the following week the President would pursue ways of promoting badminton in the US through national sports bodies and the television network NBC (USA Rights Holder for the 2004 and 2008 Olympic Games).
IBF Coaches programme
8. During the next year IBF-appointed coaches would be made available to all Member Associations to assist with their development programmes. Chair of Development Committee Federico Valdez was currently finalising details.
Continental Confederations
9. Since Seville the President had visited all five continents, except for Africa. He reaffir-med his commitment to strengthening the operation and efficiency of the continental offices.
Executive Board
10. The Executive Board had met three times during the previous eleven months (a fourth meeting had been cancelled due to the events of September 11). The President commented that much had been achieved and expressed the belief that still more would be done during the next three years.
SCRUTINEERS
11. Mme Lu Shengrong (Immediate Past President), Roy Ward (Honorary Life Vice-President) and Roger Johansson (Vice-President) were appointed scrutineers.
ATTENDANCE
12. An attendance list is attached at Annex A. There were 110 Member Associations pre-sent with a total voting strength of 202.
MINUTES OF 2001 ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING
13. The minutes of the meeting held in Seville, Spain on 3 June 2001 had been circulated and were agreed. There were no matters arising.
COUNCIL and COMMITTEE REPORTS for the year ending 31 December 2001
14. The President invited comments on the Report of Council and its Committees.
15. Hans Henrik Fløe (Denmark) was pleased to see that some much-needed changes were in progress, but highlighted the need to look at further ways to modernise badmin-ton. He underlined the need for badminton to grow and adapt to meet the new chal-lenges of an increasingly competitive international sports market, and warned that if badminton was unable to give people what they wanted then it would lose its sponsors and its popularity around the world to other sports that could.
16. There being no further comment, the reports were approved.
FINANCIAL STATEMENTS for the year ending 31 December 2001
17. Tong Wai Lun (Chair of Finance Committee) presented the financial statements detai-led on pages 20-27 of the Annual Report and invited questions. There being no queries, the Financial Statements for the year ending 31 December 2001 were adopted.
BUDGETS for 2002 and 2003
18. Tong Wai Lun directed the delegates to the erratum that had been issued to replace the incorrectly presented budgets printed on page 18 of the Annual report, and the budgets for 2002 and 2003 were then adopted.
COUNCIL ELECTIONS
Vice-Presidents
19. Torsten Berg, Federico Valdez and Charoen Wattanasin were elected and would each serve a term of three years in office.
Continental Representatives
20. The following were elected and would each serve a term of two years in office:
Tong Wai Lun(Asian Badminton Confederation)
Cephas Lar(African Badminton Federation)
Federico Valdez(Panamerican Badminton Confederation)
Council
21. There followed a ballot for the six vacancies on Council. The results of the ballot would be announced under item 14 of the Order Paper.
SUBSCRIPTION
22. It was agreed that the subscription should remain at US$200 per unit for the year 2003.
RULES OF THE FEDERATION
23. Torsten Berg (Chair of Administration Committee) formally presented the three propo-sals listed under item 6 on the Order Paper. The amendments to Rules 14.8.1 and 14.10 were approved.
24. In response to a query from Robin Bryant (Australia) over the measures proposed under item 6.3 of the Order Paper, the Chief Executive explained that the current rules were needed for IBF to purchase property in the UK. The deletion of Rule 19 and addition of new Rule 5.2.12 were subsequently adopted.
LAWS OF BADMINTON
Revised Laws
25. Torsten Berg presented the proposed new Laws that the Administration (Rules & Laws) Committee had assembled during the previous four years. A number of drafts had be-en widely circulated for comment during this time and he thanked Member Associa-tions, Court Officials and others for their contributions. If accepted, the Laws would come into force on 1 August 2002.
26. Torsten Berg explained that the new set of Laws were mainly a simplification of those already in use but highlighted the following changes:
-Law 1.4 now stated that "Posts shall not extend into the court"
-the provision under Law 2.9 for modifications to be made to shuttles because of special circumstances had been removed due to redundancy.
-Laws 12 and 14 had been rewritten and simplified.
-Appendix 3 included provision to play one game of 21 points, or 5 games of 7 points.
-Minor changes had been made to Appendix 4 "Umpires vocabulary" and to the Recommendations to Court Officials.
Torsten Berg concluded by saying that the changes would not affect the nature of badminton but merely make the Laws easier to understand and apply. The revised Laws were adopted.
Five Games to Seven Points
27. Torsten Berg explained the background to Councils proposal to adopt the new scoring system of 5x7. Badminton faced tough competition from other sports, many of which had already made changes, eg to their laws and/or their equipment, while retaining their core values. Badminton was therefore seeking to address this concern and address the issue raised by a number of IOC personnel, who had stated that the sports that would survive would be those that were able to adapt.
As a trained scientist in his professional life Torsten Berg had used standard scientific principles to review the success of the 5x7 experiment, as presented in Annex D to the Order Paper.
He concluded that the 5x7 experiment had achieved a considerable number of its objectives, following its thorough testing at tournaments around the world:
- it produced more critical points and consequently more exciting matches
- it had reduced the average match length by 20-25%. Matches were shorter still where opponents were unevenly matched, although close matches could still last more than one hour.
- the system was easier to follow for spectators (especially new spectators), although still more could be done.
However, not all the targets had been reached:
-there had been some increased interest among the media and public, but this would not be a long-term phenomenon, probably lasting only until 5x7 became the established system
-there was no evidence to show that TV coverage had exploited the increased number of breaks offered by 5x7.
Torsten Berg reminded the meeting that if 5x7 was adopted there would still be a provi-sion for 3x15 to continue as an alternate scoring system at non-IBF sanctioned events
28. The President explained that amendments to the Council proposal had been received from the Danish Badminton Association (DBF) and the Badminton Association of Eng-land (BA of E). Representatives of each association were invited to explain their amendments.
29. Hans Henrik Fløe (Denmark) stated that the most important issue was not which scoring system should be adopted but that there should be a change. Mr Fløe strongly belie-ved that a change was necessary if badminton was to maintain and increase its po-pularity over the next 20-30 years. Mr Fløe called on the meeting to support the Presi-dent who had expressed his desire to work for change. He then withdrew the DBF amendment and proposed that the AGM establish whether or not there existed a de-sire for change and, if so, that Council be tasked with finding the right system.
30. Eraj Wijesinghe (Sri Lanka) pointed out that it was a critical time for badminton as it was considering changing a fundamental part of the game. The different amendments proposed and the comments at the meeting showed that badminton was still not fully ready to make a change so Mr Wijesinghe proposed that a vote on changing the sco-ring system be postponed.
31. Stephen Baddeley (England) argued that change was essential for badminton to survi-ve as a TV and Olympic sport. Mr Baddeley proposed withdrawing the BA of E amendment and asked that Council produce a new proposal.
32. Robin Bryant (Australia) commented that although the events run by Oceania mem-bers were smaller they still showed that change would be welcomed. He expressed sympathy for the BA of E and DBF amendments believing that 5x7 was good but that other systems could be better still. He was reluctant to support a change to 5x9 without having any detailed information about the pros and cons of the system.
Mr Bryant asked that the matter be passed to Council to look at all the options availa-ble, including 5x9, with the possibility of using different scoring systems for different pur-poses or levels of play.
33. Cedric Baxter (Oceania) reported that he was happy with any of the new scoring sy-stem options as long as there was a change from the 3x15 system.
34. However, Mr Baxter explained that he had long been a supporter of womens rights and equality for both sexes, and the 5x7 system (in which both men and women would use the same system) would be a big step in the right direction.
35. Punch Gunalan (Nepal) spoke on behalf of his Asian colleagues. Mr Gunalan pointed out that the discussion papers on new scoring systems had largely come from Europe and he wished to present the Asian perspective on 5x7, which Asian players found to be too short, of benefit only to attacking players, and which favoured the use of only three strokes (serve, spin and smash) to the detriment of more balanced play.
36. Datuk Gunalan agreed that change was necessary but questioned whether altering the scoring system was the only way to achieve this and suggested sitting down with the TV companies to find out what they really wanted from badminton.
37. Datuk Gunalan proposed empowering Council to make a decision on the system to be used.
38. Torsten Berg said that he would like to see continue the unity demonstrated by the election of the President in Seville. He therefore agreed, if it was the clear wish of the AGM, that the Council proposal could also be withdrawn and the matter referred to Council.
39. As some delegates indicated they were confused as to where the decision-making process had reached, the Chief Executive said that it was being proposed to refer the matter to Council and empower it to make the final decision.
40. The President explained that a 2/3 majority of the votes was required to change the laws, unless the AGM mandated Council to decide on its behalf. He emphasised to the AGM that it would need to be bound by the Council decision if the matter was referred to Council. The AGM approved that Council should review the matter and decide which scoring system would be adopted. The President confirmed that Council would decide on the scoring system at its scheduled meeting on 18 May.
41. At this point the meeting was adjourned for a coffee break.
SUDIRMAN CUP REGULATIONS
42. Jeff Robson (Chair of Events Committee) formally presented the proposal to amend Sudirman Cup Regulations 3 and 4.5.3. These were approved.
43. Mr Robson formally presented the proposal to replace Sudirman Cup Regulation 16, which would allow Council to make amendments to the Sudirman Cup regulations. This measure would provide Council with the greater flexibility necessitated by the advan-ced planning and notice required by sponsors, TV and host organisers of any changes to the competition format.
Anne Smillie (Scotland) confirmed her association had no objection to Council making minor amendments provided the AGM continued to be involved in decisions on any major changes, eg to reduce the number of competing countries.
This was approved.
WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS REGULATIONS
44. Jeff Robson formally presented the proposals to delete Regulation 5.3 and amend Re-gulation 12. These were approved.
THOMAS & UBER CUP REGULATIONS
45. Jeff Robson formally presented the proposals to amend Regulations 4.5.3 and 17. These were approved.
INTERNATIONAL REPRESENTATION
46. Torsten Berg presented Councils proposal to strengthen the current regulations on in-ternational representation.
47. At the Presidents request, Stephen Baddeley (England) presented his associations amendment to the Council proposal. Mr Baddeley explained that, although Councils initiative was welcome, the BA of E felt that it was necessary to make the control even stricter in order to protect the integrity of international badminton competition, and that their amendment would achieve this. Their amendment was seconded by Hans Henrik Fløe, DBF.
48. There followed a discussion on the merits of strengthening the control on international representation and player movement.
49. The BA of E amendment was passed by a majority of 101 to 69 votes.
50. The amended proposal was adopted with a majority of 91 votes to 72.
51. The Chief Executive clarified that since the BA of E amendment did not specify an im-plementation date it was assumed that the date would be the same as for Councils proposal, ie 1 August 2002. Council would establish the transitional measures to be used and these would be communicated to Member Associations without delay.
DECLARATION ON INTEGRITY OF MATCHES
52. The Chief Executive explained that a number of sports had suffered from allegations that players and/or officials had taken actions which were not permitted by the rules of the sport, eg "fixing" a match result. The declaration on the Order Paper was designed to pre-empt such an occurrence within badminton. This was adopted.
AUDITORS
53. Tong Wai Lun (Chair of Finance) explained that the current auditors KPMG had restruc-tured their organisation so that the auditing responsibilities would be assumed by a limi-ted liability partnership within the company. Tong Wai Lun confirmed that this was an internal change to KPMG and would not affect the quality of their audit work, and mo-ved to accept the resignation of KPMG and appointment of KPMG LLP as the new au-ditors. This was agreed.
COUNCIL ELECTION RESULT
54. The result of the Council elections were as follows:
1.Rudy Hartono (Indonesia)201
2.Li Lingwei (China)199
3.Eraj Wijesinghe (Sri Lanka) 194
4.Heather Nielsen (England)190
5.Puzant Kassabian (Bulgaria)187
6.Edgar Aglipay (Philippines)178
7.Robin Bryant (Australia) 57

55. The top six nominees were thereby elected and would each serve a term of two years in office.
56. The President took the opportunity to thank previous Council members Yang Shuan, Hiranmay Ray and Dr James Sekajugo for their contribution to Council over the years.
OLYMPIC GAMES 2004
57. George Georgoudis, ATHOC Competition Manager for Badminton, confirmed that he would attend each AGM up until the 2004 Games and then reported on progress for the badminton event in Athens. Full details of his presentation can be found at Annex B.
BIENNIAL CONGRESS
58. Torsten Berg explained that the paper circulated in advance of the meeting sought to examine ways of maximising the benefits available from the AGM. He acknowledged that the thought of speaking to a room of more than 100 people could prevent some people from speaking freely and so it was necessary to find other means (such as smaller open forums or discussion groups) of increasing the dialogue between Council and delegates, and between delegates themselves. An additional option might to hold the AGM once every two years in the hope that more Member Associations could find the necessary funds to send a representative to the meeting.
59. Cedric Baxter (Oceania Badminton Confederation) strongly supported any measures aimed at encouraging the participation of delegates, but argued that to hold the Ge-neral Meeting once every two years was not acceptable.
60. Anne Smillie (Scotland) agreed that open forums could provide smaller associations with an excellent opportunity to learn from their more experienced colleagues in areas such as event organisation. However, it was vital that the AGM be held every 12 months as it was the occasion when Council reported to and was accountable to the Federations members.
61. Torsten Berg thanked the delegates for their contributions and advised that the Admini-stration committee would in due course ask the members for their opinions in writing.
OTHER BUSINESS
Pearl River Boat Trip
62. The Chief Executive advised that the Guangzhou Organising Committee had arranged a boat trip on the Pearl River to which all delegates had been invited. Transport would be leaving the hotel at 18:50 and a buffet would be provided on the boat.
Delegates arrangements
63. Delegates were reminded that they should settle any outstanding bills for accommoda-tion directly with the organisers in room 509. Other incidental expenses should be paid to the hotel.
64. Delegates were asked to confirm their departure details with the Organising Committee so that places in the accredited seating at the hall could be released.
NEXT MEETING
65. It was agreed that the 2003 AGM would be held in May in Birmingham, England at the time of the World Championships. Detailed notice of the meeting would be sent to members in due course.
END OF MEETING
66. The President brought the meetings attention to the fact that Immediate Past President Mme Lu Shengrong had been awarded the IOCs Silver Order and Mme Lu was warmly applauded.
Mme Lu explained that the award was really for badminton as she had only received it because of the opportunity that she had been given by the Member Associations and delegates when they elected her IBF President.
67. The President highlighted the fact that badminton still had work to do to meet the IOCs quotas on womens representation in its administration. He urged the Member Associa-tions to look for opportunities to help Council reach this quota.

MB/NC
28 May 2002
Korn Dabbaransi / President International Badminton Federation

[adelina76]

Hey Kwun, unless I just missed something, this minutes did not mention anything at all about IBF's new decision to revert back to the 15x3 and the shocking decision on the women's doubles and mix doubles scoring format..

Also, interesting that the minutes mentioned that Datuk Punch Gunalan is from Nepal *ROFL* Err...he's actually a Malaysian and ex Malaysian Badminton Federation President..doh! :) FYI, Datuk is a title ..kind of like Sir under the English system :)

[Matt Ross]

Hi,

I am a big fan of doubles and i love playing both. I'm pleased the mens doubles is back to 15x3, but i also love the mixed. I play alot of mixed and i am VERY dissapointed in the change to 11x3. I have had many great comebacks from say 11-7 down. They seriously need to rethink what they are doing. I am very angry at this change and i can't see what the trouble with 15x3 for all except womens singles was!

Matt

[Californian]

There is really no basis for women playing to 11 pts. instead of 15. It probably goes back to the idea that somehow it would be harmful to women to play as long as the men. Look how long it took to get a women's marathon race into the Olympics. The old ways are slow to change.

[kwun]

this is just a guess.

the number of point in a game completely do not reflect the length of the game. ladies doubles rallies are much much longer than men's double rallies. and as a result, i think the average length and probably maximum length of a LD game is longer than a MD game. the change to 11 point is probably trying to solve that issue instead of the fitness level, etc, of the average lady.

in other words, even though there is less points, the actual duration of the game can be similar.

could that be a plausible explanation?

we have seen 2 hours games in LD before, i can't remember the last time i saw a MD game go for longer than 1.5 hours.

[cooler]

yes, i think that was IBF's explaination. However, i see 2 sides of this ruling.

The positive:
1. to balance out the duration of men and ladies games in hope to attract TV networkk people (which ironically ibf didn't consult with them in the first place as noted by bip)

Negative:

1. Badminton might be viewed as a sexist sport
2. Two scoring system may add confusion to new and potential viewing audience.

It's almost like 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

[adelina76]

Originally posted by kwun
this is just a guess.

the number of point in a game completely do not reflect the length of the game. ladies doubles rallies are much much longer than men's double rallies. and as a result, i think the average length and probably maximum length of a LD game is longer than a MD game. the change to 11 point is probably trying to solve that issue instead of the fitness level, etc, of the average lady.

in other words, even though there is less points, the actual duration of the game can be similar.

could that be a plausible explanation?

we have seen 2 hours games in LD before, i can't remember the last time i saw a MD game go for longer than 1.5 hours.

Just as there's 2 hours games in LD, there have also been 2 hour games for MD, so why the discrimination?

I hear what you're saying Kwun..however, the length of time spent in WD should not be the basis for the change in the point system given that the long rallies that WD come up with are part and parcel of the WD games that goes to the intricacy of playing WD..ie, if in the MD, you see lots of smashing and defending as the nature of the mens' doubles, then long rallies followed by intelligent placing of the shuttles would be the signature of the WD games. In addition, you surely cannot justify them sustaining the 11x3 format for the WS by saying that the length of time for WS under this format is simlar to the length of time played in a MS..if the length of time is used as a basis for this change, then MS should be reduced to 11x3 format and the WS increased to 15x3 given that the MS matches are generally much longer than the WS.

Besides, international players aside, in your normal social inter club or even at the state/ provincial level, I doubt WD matches will go for 2 hours in these local type competitions..but by reducing it to 11x3, it will surely take away the enjoyment of the WD.

[Matt Ross]

Kwun,

Whats your views on the 11x3 for mixed? I know your a keen mixed player and i'm angered at this change. Whats your view?

Matt

[bip]

36. Datuk Gunalan agreed that change was necessary but questioned whether altering the scoring system was the only way to achieve this and suggested sitting down with the TV companies to find out what they really wanted from badminton.

I find this disconcerting. It suggests that the attempts to woo commercial interest are stabs in the dark, without having done the needed homework of researching the market first. At least talk to the client!

This article at badders.com is very interesting:
Understanding membership helps participation sports (http://www.badders.com/news/23)

It talks about surveying the market and getting some hard stats on who what when where are regulars and potential players. These stats can be used to win commercial interest and sponsorships. I've seen somewhere that Badminton Australia estimates there are at least 80,000 players around the country... but where are they? why are so very few of them in clubs? how can clubs encourage more participation? Few clubs here seem to really reach out and open up to all interested ppl -- they operate more like little separate communities. The big ones that are open, are too open that people can walk in walk out with no sense of club loyalty.

There is no feeling that we are part of a bigger national community of a really fun sport. I think BadmintonCentral has shown that a larger (international!) community binding can be created effectively via the internet. This would be a really good start.

[kwun]

as a viewer and total badminton fanatic, i wouldn't mind 3x35 for all games. :)

but in reality, i tend to agree with all points raised here.

adelina, yes, i totally agree with you, in fact, i enjoy LD as much as MD, and honestly i learn more from LD doubles than MD.

i wasn't saying LD should have less points than MD, but i was just attempting to guess what the IBF committee intent for the new scoring system.

as for mixed doubles. i personally will continue to play 3x15. i also prefer it to be 3x15 internationally. i still think the game of mixed is still evolving.

[adelina76]

Sorry Kwun, don't mean to sound like I'm huffing and puffing..but I suppose I just love WD very much and it is gut wrenching to see the scoring format being changed like that. Same goes to the mix doubles..

You know what we should do ? We should hold like a Badminton Central Championship every..say 4 years or something at a particular country and all the users of this website should come together and have a ball playing badminton against each other..Gee, i wonder if I am to play mix, who should I play with..okey, who among you guys here are quick all around the court, hardly ever lift the shuttle (VERY CRUCIAL..*shows you the scar on her eyes and cheek*) and are extremely patient with their female partners..ahem..? :p

[Byro-Nenium]

I have not personally tried the 11x3 system. But i don't really see that as entirely a bad thing. I see it as a "different" format. Coz mostly i've played under the 15x3 and more recently 7x5. But it should be interesting, yet to try it out.

[F-Man]

Adelina76:
I agree with you and many others that the new 3x11 system format is a terrible act of *** discrimination. I have to admit that more often than not, I prefer to watch female players play rather than the men. At times, the men's game can be overly aggresive and guys simply resort to smashing their way out of trouble, unlike most ladies, who will adopt a more subtle approach when put under pressure. It is usually evident that ladies think much more on court and therfore, much is to be learned in observing matches involving ladies. The sad fact is that guys think with there testicles rather than their brains too much of the time. That's not too say all guys are like this, mut too often this is unfortunately the case. So stuff the IBF! Bring back the old 3x15 system! We, the hardcore badminton nuts demand it!

[kwun]

badminton central championship! yes! :)

[nightingale]

F-Man
what club do you play at in Scot? I may pop along there..... :-)

[Cheung]

Kwun's statement on the length of the match may have more truth than people realise.

One of the aims of the IBF is to try and bring more grass-roots players into watching badminton. Sure, I can agree the women's/mxd game is more tactically interesting. But would anybody say that the average person on the street would understand this from watching a two hour ladies doubles match?

I very much doubt the average person would understand why a lady would play LD for two hours and then be exhausted for her mxd doubles the next day.

In your 'average' club, the fewer points system actually leads to more rotation of games thereby enhancing the variety of games with different players - a plus point for the social aspect of the game and grass roots players.

If badminton does NOT get any viewing time on TV it might be better to have a greater proportion of viewing time spent on MS, MD. Then for the time that is allocated to the ladies' disciplines, at least we would have a chance of seeing the whole match rather than edited highlights

BTW, I haven't seen a two hour men's doubles match before so I wonder which match is Adelina referring to.

And on the subject of *** discrimination, aren't the men being discriminated against by having to play longer?:mad:

[kwun]

hey, here is a thought, how about 3x11 for all matches?

[adelina76]

Originally posted by Cheung
Kwun's statement on the length of the match may have more truth than people realise.

One of the aims of the IBF is to try and bring more grass-roots players into watching badminton. Sure, I can agree the women's/mxd game is more tactically interesting. But would anybody say that the average person on the street would understand this from watching a two hour ladies doubles match?

I very much doubt the average person would understand why a lady would play LD for two hours and then be exhausted for her mxd doubles the next day.

In your 'average' club, the fewer points system actually leads to more rotation of games thereby enhancing the variety of games with different players - a plus point for the social aspect of the game and grass roots players.

If badminton does NOT get any viewing time on TV it might be better to have a greater proportion of viewing time spent on MS, MD. Then for the time that is allocated to the ladies' disciplines, at least we would have a chance of seeing the whole match rather than edited highlights

BTW, I haven't seen a two hour men's doubles match before so I wonder which match is Adelina referring to.

And on the subject of *** discrimination, aren't the men being discriminated against by having to play longer?:mad:

First of all..the 2 hours LD match that Kwun is referring too is probably a one-off and it is not something I believe you should quote as the normal or general length of WD. Cheung, I didn't say I've seen a MD that went for more than 2 hours..I said surely there must have been or at least close to 2 hours..however, the actual length of time is not the issue here, but rather the fairness of it all.

In other words Cheung, if it is the commercial viewing time that is of concern, I agree wholeheartedly with what Kwun suggested, why not have all the games reduced to 11x3 format? Besides from what you are saying in terms of 'the average people not being able to appreciate the tactical strokes from watching long WD (I note you didn't mention XD here), are you implying that the average person will appreciate MS and MD more than WD and XD? So you are saying that the general public would prefer to watch men play than women play. If you are implying that, that is definitely a discrimination.

The other thing you have to remember is..other than the viewing time issue, such IBF rule is binding on all badminton tournaments which meant we, as competitive players are also bound by this rule and as a player, I can tell you it is not fun having your doubles match reduced from 15 to 11 points.. So anyway, summary of all this is:

1) The best way to ensure fairness to both men and women is to have all games 15x3, but if that's not feasible, then at least return to the old 15x3 for all games except WS which remains at 11x3; and

2) If viewing time is the issue due to commecial sponsorship demands etc, then all games shall be reduced to 11x3. In such case, everyone will get to view all the games, plus it is fair to both men and women players.

P.S So Kwun, when are you going to organise the first ever Badminton Central World Championship? :p *nudge*

[kwun]

need some sponsors. know any?

[viver]

I've watched (WTSN channel is great) this year Japan Open. The ladies doubles was the most exciting (WTSN is women sports channel, so they broadcast only LS, LD and XD) and played in 7x5 format. It was Gao Ling/Huang Sui vs Ra KM/Lee KW.

The Koreans won 3-2. They attacked a lot, taking the initiative and going for the shots hard. After the game the Koreans looked tired, but the Chinese girls seemingly still fresh.

I think changing the LD to 3x11 may not be a bad thing after all. Of course the new format has to be tested to see the results. But I believe this change could make the game faster and more attractive to the audiences. Making the game shorter, the ladies teams should be more adventurous to win the rallies rather than trying to wear out the opponents.

[adelina76]

All right, calling all millionaire badminton players..this is your chance! :) Hehe Kwun, maybe we should all become 'smokin monkeys...' *innocent look*

Hmms..how about all of you turn up to Christchurch..err..you can sleep in my living room..air tickets..hmms, peopl did say that swimming is the best form of exercise and warm up..:p

[Cheung]

Originally posted by adelina76
[B]
In other words Cheung, if it is the commercial viewing time that is of concern, I agree wholeheartedly with what Kwun suggested, why not have all the games reduced to 11x3 format? Besides from what you are saying in terms of 'the average people not being able to appreciate the tactical strokes from watching long WD (I note you didn't mention XD here), are you implying that the average person will appreciate MS and MD more than WD and XD? So you are saying that the general public would prefer to watch men play than women play. If you are implying that, that is definitely a discrimination.

The other thing you have to remember is..other than the viewing time issue, such IBF rule is binding on all badminton tournaments which meant we, as competitive players are also bound by this rule and as a player, I can tell you it is not fun having your doubles match reduced from 15 to 11 points.. So anyway, summary of all this is:

1) The best way to ensure fairness to both men and women is to have all games 15x3, but if that's not feasible, then at least return to the old 15x3 for all games except WS which remains at 11x3; and

2) If viewing time is the issue due to commecial sponsorship demands etc, then all games shall be reduced to 11x3. In such case, everyone will get to view all the games, plus it is fair to both men and women players.

/B]

a. Let me just state my position here before being openly accused of *** discrimination. It has been noted by many people that badminton is a fast game. In general, the games with the fastest shots are perceived by the "average non-badminton player" as most enjoyable. It is easier to understand as well. Therefore, it sounds to reason that the "average viewer" (not player) will be more attracted to the game.

Let me say to you, if the fastest shots are played by the ladies, then of course, allocating a greater proportion of the time to that part of the game is correct. Would that be discrimination? Some men might say so! But no it isn't. It is a course of events that occur because of fact.

Now, for the real world, the men's game is the fastest so a greater proportion of the time is spent on this. Why is it not possible to apply the same logic and then be accused of *** discrimination?

Of course not. It just happens to be a fact. So the fact is the fastest shots are played by the men.

b. if you talk about fairness, my statement is that all games be 5 x9 (I have stated this before). However, the world is frequently unfair and there may be other factors which we don't know of yet. If some people don't fully know, or know but don't appreciate the reasons behind suchdecisions, it stands to reason that a proportion of those people will shout "UNFAIR"! This is not unique to badminton but happens on many commercial and governemt decisions. Not all decisions are correct though....

c. for your point (2), that is one solution. But the priority for IBF might be to increase viewership and sponsorship and thus allocation of time becomes a priority factor. Maybe IBF would rather have Ladies (&mxd) shown in full rather than have edited h'lights.

d. yes, I agree reduction of points may not be obvious but did you consider some of the possible advantages that I mentioned? Should those possible 'advantages' be immediately discounted because a person/group shouts "unfair, it's *** discrimination"!

e. oh yes, it stands to reason that if resources are limited(i.e. viewing time, then we should utilise it to maximum benefit

[Mag]

To me, it is symptomatic to how the IBF works (or rather, not works) that they approached this from the wrong angle. The first question should have been: "Do we need a scoring change?", instead of immediately asking "can we accept 5x7 as the new scoring system?". That way, it would have been easier to approach the whole issue of which system to use in a more scientific and empirical fashion...

[Cheung]

This is sure to bring a smile to Adelina's face;)

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2002/9/15/sports/volt&sec=sports

The IBF might be accused of *** discrimination if it continues with the present scoring system

[adelina76]

First of all, thanks Cheung for that update..but did you guys read what I read..in case you missed it from the Star's article (which Cheung has kindly provided)..and I quote:


“We are focusing to a large extent on the presentation on television – making sure all our players have their names on the back of their shirts, making sure that at our international events team members are wearing team colours, (and) opponents at a given match are wearing distinct colours,” IBF chief executive Neil Cameron said.

“We have been working with manufacturers to try and make sure that particularly ladies, but also the men, wear clothes that allow spectators to realise what the bodies of the participants look like.”

Ohmygosh! So we all should now wear what Serena Williams wear during the recent U S Open? Tight catsuit so that we all can show the spectators what our bodies look like? This is ridiculous! Someone please tell me that I've misread the article somehow!

A

[cooler]

I'm too was astonished with IBF's two sided approach. On one hand IBF reduces the scoring point for the ladies event but on the other hand they want the viewing audience to see 'more' of the ladies players. It looks to me like the IBF want to promote badminton at the expense of women players. As i have said in my previous posts, IBF don't seem to have a thought out strategy to promote badminton. They seem to react and pick the flavor of the moment type of solution.

[Winex West Can]

?We have been working with manufacturers to try and make sure that particularly ladies, but also the men, wear clothes that allow spectators to realise what the bodies of the participants look like.?


Hmmm....what is this? I guessed maybe the IBF gotten the attendance numbers back when Carola Bott played. ;)

This is probably the most sexist statement that I've heard from the IBF.

[Winex West Can]

Another note on the article.

Do you catch the fact that BAofE refuses to play 11x5 for the WD and XD events?

Good for them.

I wondered if complaining to the President (Korn Babbaransi) of IBF would make any difference.

[Winex West Can]

Oops...I meant 11x3.

To further clarify. BAofE events are all 15x3 except the ladies singles which is 11x3 contratory to IBF where 11x3 is used for the WD, XD and WS.

[Cheung]

What I don't understand is that everybody cheers when going back to the old scoring system.

Why all the cheering. In fact, none of the problems have been solved because the women STILL do not have equal footing. i.e. the women's singles is fewer points.

If people are going to argue reducing the WD and Mxd to 11 are discriminatory, they have to include Women's singles in that package as well.

Therefore, BAofE are still getting it wrong. They should increase the Women's singles to 15 points per game if they want to make a statement.

How come I never ever see people supporting 3 x 15 for the ladies singles?

Just to repeat the question (so everybody gets the right idea:)


How come I never ever see people supporting 3 x 15 for the ladies singles?

BTW, the women's doubles game is better with shorter games for viewing purposes. It is more attacking. Mixed, not seen eoungh to comment.

[dlp]

Sorry to revive an old thread but with the biggest shop window for badminton upcoming (the WC at Birmingham) we will see how the system performs on the world stage.

Cheung, excellent point regarding the inequlity in womens singles, perhaps the reason for the illogical 11 points is that most women don't want to play more points, in fact at lower levels (county, opens etc in uk) its hard to even find enough womens singles players to run the events, and games are frequently quick and one sided at all levels. If we had 15 pts in ws would we see a different type of womens player prospering , we often see strong women with little movement prospering in england, perhaps never being stretched endurance wise over the short format?

When you go to watch badminton over a day as many will at the worlds, we enjoy the great players but it is the close matches, the see saw matches and comebacks that involve the crowd most, and you simply get more of those in the 15 format. Even for top players playing to 11 or 7, mentally a 5 point gap is likely to mean the game is gone, where as in 15 this is not the case. Look at the number of 11-0, 11-1 games in mixed in recent grand prix events, now i don't have the statistics but i'm sure there weren't so many one sided games under the 15 format.

Also for the WC organisers there is the bonus of the amount of extra merchandise that can be sold while all the crowd are driven out of the arena by the 2 hour, 17-16 16-17 17-16 all chinese womens doubles final (only joking)

:p

[Cheung]

It's the Korean women's doubles who like to play 2 hour matches. They did this in 2001 WC Q/f against a chinese pair and 2003 SC s/f against Denmark! the last match was more impressive as it was 11 point games....:confused:

[jerby]

5x7 was indeed to short. but then: 5x7=35 while 3x15=45 big difference..
5x9=45 ..seems good to mee..
with 3x15 you need to make 30 points to win.
with 5x9 you need 27 points to win..

good enough for me..

[Pball]

I just found out that IBM has revert back to the old point system of 3x15 which is good..always thought the 7x5 was a bit silly..BUT..

I am sooooooo annoyed that they are going to reduce the points for women's doubles and mix doubles to ELEVEN (11) points!! What are they thinking! That's downright sexism and discrimination! Okey, fine, for telecasting purposes, I can understand that watching the women's doubles isn't exactly heart pumping and stopping event, (although I always thought watching Gei Fei and Gei Chun from China playing doubles were very entertaining), still, it is not fair!!!! It is bad enough they dont' think we are good enough to play to 15 points in the singles, but to reduce women's doubles to 11 points? It's an outrage! :( GRRRRRRRRR...

sorry.. :( just needed to vent that frustration..*POUT* :mad:

Hmm .. I can commiserate.. Women today at the Pro level are very well conditioned, and in fact I think can even play singles 1 - 15. And speed is not the only source of excitment.. sometimes a very cleverly placed shot or a deceptive shot is also a source for appreciation..

(conspiracy theory mode: Is the ibf pres a s__ist..?? He wants more 'appealing' fashion and now this...LOL!!!)

[Pball]

badminton central championship! yes! :)

Hmm -- very good Idea... I could work out something here with the Association of tour o[perators...... lower hotel rates, ariport pickups etc..

[DaN_fAn]

5x7 was indeed to short. but then: 5x7=35 while 3x15=45 big difference..
5x9=45 ..seems good to mee..
with 3x15 you need to make 30 points to win.
with 5x9 you need 27 points to win..

good enough for me..
I agree 9x5 or 11x5[5 games a match] might make a good scoring.i would like rally point scoring to be tried with that kind of system.

[sac_man]

Well ! I don't like changes, grew up with playing 15 point any other scoring systems would seems weird !
Same goes with Woman, what's wrong with 11 points.

Sexism ?, where do we ( as a society ) draw the line, how about letting woman play in Men events, come on!, let's not make an issues out of nothing.

any golfer out there ?, Men and woman does not Tee off from same place, woman have shorter distances.

[twobeer]

Some mixed thoughts :-D

* I am happy that they don't go to 21 system!

* I am happy that the keep 3x15 for mens singles

* 9x5 could actually be sligthly longer than 3x15 in tight matchen (11-10,11-10,10-11,10-11,10-11) (105pts vs. 17-16,16-17,16-17: 99pts)

* I can't really see a huge problem to explain for new viewers a scoring different for the women's game than for the men. It's not "that" hard to explan that first to 11 wins in the women game and first to 15 in the mens game :-)
On the other hand, I think 3x15 for all disciplines would work as well, so I would say that having the same scoring for all discipliens sounds to be simplest and celanest..

Why not let the women pros vote if they want to keep 3x11 or go to 3x15.. (And as i stated before I think it's better to have completely separete events and for the different disciplines anyway, as most players these days are specialized in a certain discipline anyway!!)

* I agree with previous posts, that it sounds like IBF's angel on things have been quite wrong.. "We shall change the scoring", "How should we change it?".. Instead of asking.. "what do we want to accomplish", "is changing the scoring the best method?".

/Twobeer

[Joanne]

Well, as a girl I would prefer to play 15 points. 11 points is just too short. Any of you guys tried playing 11 points before? You'll realise that the game is over before it even started! There's no space for 'comebacks', whereas in 15 point games jumping from 2-12 to 12-12 is easier.

I think I may be a bit left behind.. is the 21 point scoring without service really going to be introduced?

[Dream Hai]

I am not downgrading ladies doubles but people watching the game on TV is what is going to be the savior of Badminton as a major sport....I love the ladies but they can produce some of the slowest games I have ever seen...
This may be an underlying reason for the 3x11...I am not being sexist so please dont mis-understand me, I am only interested in the sport becoming a major one in the future...I like the idea of 5x7 for all competitors because of the closer ending producing excitment for the TV audiences....Scoring should be the same for all players!!:confused:

[BadFever]

Doh!!! For a moment there, I thought IBF have just made another changes back to the 3x15 scoring system when I realize that this thread goes back to year 2002.

Thanks for the suspense, Dream Hai.

[Tsumaranai]

Same here, lol.

[DutchRion]

OMG i laughed all the way from the beginning.... whahha heating discussions over a 4 year old thread :D

[Dream Hai]

OMG i laughed all the way from the beginning.... whahha heating discussions over a 4 year old thread :D

:D :D :D :D It was fun wasnt it? Anyway tomorrow 18 may 2006 will be the end of it I hope...:D :D :D :D

[DutchRion]

yes, and the real fun thing is people arguing over ladies playing 3X11, while the new point system is very different! :D:D:D.... oops, got to go now! champions league finals barcelona VS arsenal :D

[titaniumsp77]

Dear Adelina,

Best of 15x3 n 11x3 shows true potential of players.Taufik just isnt interested at all.I believe he had already retire n playing for time being just to satisfy others.

Rgds,
titanium:rolleyes:






I just found out that IBM has revert back to the old point system of 3x15 which is good..always thought the 7x5 was a bit silly..BUT..

I am sooooooo annoyed that they are going to reduce the points for women's doubles and mix doubles to ELEVEN (11) points!! What are they thinking! That's downright sexism and discrimination! Okey, fine, for telecasting purposes, I can understand that watching the women's doubles isn't exactly heart pumping and stopping event, (although I always thought watching Gei Fei and Gei Chun from China playing doubles were very entertaining), still, it is not fair!!!! It is bad enough they dont' think we are good enough to play to 15 points in the singles, but to reduce women's doubles to 11 points? It's an outrage! :( GRRRRRRRRR...

sorry.. :( just needed to vent that frustration..*POUT* :mad:

[DutchRion]

uhm... that post is like 4 years old..... havent you noticed there is a whole new point system going on? :D