INA's squad for Sudirman Cup 2009 [Archive] - Badminton Central Discussion Forums

ye333

04-08-2009, 09:37 AM

At least TH and SDK can then take turns. (Honestly, TH has better chance than SDK. The only opponent TH having a less than 50% chance is LD. 50-50 with LCW. TH holds upper hand against PG, PSH, BP, not to say Smith).

The fact is, INA cannot afford to lose the MS point to almost any opponent in the top 8. Take England. England has the ability to beat INA in MD, WD and XD. The only point that will go to INA is WS -- if MKY is back in form. How about Thailand? INA has no guarantee in any of the 5 matches.

It's not about SDK afraid of being overworked or not. The fact is, unless INA does not care about winning, SDK will have to play every match and get exhausted.

Finally I don't think putting youngsters into any of the "cups" is wise. Too much responsibility. If you really want them to improve, send them to more SSs.

.."What's the point?" of what??..:confused:

So, if we're to include Taufik, what are the chances of him beating LD or LCW or PG or PSH??:confused:
If he can't deliver the goods, how will it improve the prospect of Tommy or Andre?? Are they gonna be kicked back and become an afterthought and will have to wait another 2 yrs to have their opportunity to shine??
Is INA so desperate to have Taufik in order to win or advance to the elimination round??..

If SDK is afraid to be overworked, why don't they have Simon or Tommy take up the challenge? I mean, what's the purpose of including them in the squad if not to play them? Don't tell me they are including Simon and Tommy to be Sony's massage assistances or his luggage/bags carriers??..:(

I'm not suggesting Simon or Tommy to be fielded against the other 4 top squads' top guns. Tommy and/or Simon could compete in the other group matches (round robin), esp. against other squads which are not as strong as the INA squad. Once they qualify for the elimination round, then have Sony amped up and ready to go bonanza.

eaglehelang

04-08-2009, 09:48 AM

............

Finally I don't think putting youngsters into any of the "cups" is wise. Too much responsibility. If you really want them to improve, send them to more SSs.

The youngsters need the experience in team event to play MS2 & MS3 in TC in 2010. For countries other than China, TC is more important as in they have a better chance of winning. The pressure is definitely higher in TC since singles dept is being counted on to deliver 3 pts.

seawell

04-08-2009, 11:12 AM

Indonesia Considers Turning to The Pros

With its national team players struggling, the Indonesian Badminton Association, or PBSI, looks set to turn to its professional shuttlers.

The country is desperate to reclaim the Sudirman Cup for the first time since the inaugural tournament in 1989, and it is considering all options to win back the mixed team championship title.

Indonesia has some of the world’s best shuttlers in men’s singles, men’s doubles and mixed doubles, but that alone will not guarantee success. Markis Kido and Hendra Setiawan, the world’s No. 1 men’s doubles team, are no sure thing as Markis is still undergoing physiotherapy for a knee injury.

“We need an experienced shuttler on standby in case Markis should need to be replaced,” men’s doubles coach Sigit Pamungkas said on Thursday.

Markis and Hendra will return to competition following a two-month layoff at the Asian Championship in Suwon, South Korea, on April 7-12. Just in case, though, Sigit contacted former national team shuttler Alvent Yulianto Chandra, who played alongside Luluk Hadiyanto on the national team and partnered Candra Wijaya at the 2007 Sudirman Cup.

“I chose Alvent for his experience in national squads, and he can adapt quickly with a new partner, whoever he is,” Sigit said. “I’ve asked the PBSI to consider his name for the team list.”

Alvent left the national camp in February over a contract dispute. He then started playing professionally with another former national shuttler, Hendra Aprida Gunawan.

Alvent said he has no grudge against the PBSI.

“Before leaving the camp, I promised Sigit that he could call me anytime if the country needs me,” he said. “But I won’t be back to the training camp after the Sudirman Cup.”

Indonesia has world No. 1 duo Nova Widianto and Liliyana Natsir and rising stars Devin Lahardi Fitriawan and Lita Nurlita in mixed doubles, but coach Richard Mainaky wants one more pair.

Former national team duo Flandy Limpele and Vita Marissa could fit the bill, but Richard said the decision was up to the PBSI.

Vita said she was willing to discuss the move. “If they want me back, then they will take action. I’ll just wait until that happens.”

The country’s men’s singles ranks look thin as Sony Dwi Kuncoro has only recently recovered from a back injury and Simon Santoso has yet to show much consistent form.

Former badminton great Heryanto Arbi said the PBSI should call Taufik Hidayat, who won the India Open Gold Grand Prix title last week.

“I predicted Indonesia would struggle hard in the Sudirman Cup, but with Taufik on the team, I think it would give the squad a boost,” Heryanto told state-run news agency Antara.

Taufik reached the semifinals of the 2009 All England and the quarterfinals at the Swiss Open Super Series, losing both times to world No. 1 Lee Chong Wei of Malaysia, before winning his first trophy of the year in Hyderabad.

Lius Pongoh, the PBSI head of athletes’ development, said professional players still have a chance to make the squad. The association has until April 10 to announce its Sudirman Cup roster.

seawell

04-08-2009, 11:12 AM

Veteran Alvent stands in for Cup duty

Agnes Winarti , The Jakarta Post , Jakarta

Veteran Alvent Yulianto is likely to replace Olympic gold medalist Markis Kido in the upcoming Sudirman Cup.

Pairing with Hendra Setiawan, Kido won Indonesia's only gold, in the men's doubles, at the Beijing Olympics, but has struggled since then with a knee injury.

With the biennial mixed team badminton championship set to be held from May 10 to 17 in Guangzhou, China, the Badminton Association of Indonesia (PBSI) is desperate to find a replacement for Kido.

The team is relying heavily on the men's doubles and mixed doubles to score crucial points in the competition, which features men's and women's singles, and men's, women's and mixed doubles matches.

Indonesia triumphed the first time the competition, named after Indonesian badminton legend Dick Sudirman, was played in 1989.

"Alvent has experience and has the playing style that suits Hendra's," men's doubles coach Sigit Pamungkas said Thursday on the sidelines of a training session at the PBSI camp in Cipayung, East Jakarta.

"We're still trying Alvent out with other doubles players, like M. Aksan, though. We'll see what the best combination is," Sigit said.

Alvent has been training at the Cipayung camp since before the recently concluded India Open tournament.

Because of the injury, Kido and Hendra, ranked No. 1 in the world, have been absent from two Super Series tournaments - the All England and the Swiss Open.

The pair will be deployed at the Asian Championship next week, where the PBSI is keen to see how Kido is progressing.

"He still has a great chance to play in the Sudirman Cup," Sigit said.

"He needs to gain some more tournament experience first by playing in Korea."

The Asian Championship in Suwon will run from April 7 to 12.

In the mixed doubles, coach Richard Mainaky is currently focusing to reshape the world No. 1 pair of Nova Widianto and Liliyana Natsir. The team is also preparing their stand-ins, Devin Lahardi Fitriawan and Lita Nurlita.

Olympic bronze medallist Maria Kristin Yulianti will be Indone-sia's ace in the women's singles, while world No. 5 Sony Dwi Kuncoro will lead the men's singles challenge.

"I prefer to concentrate on forging the players we still have," Richard said when asked whether players outside the training camp would be called in.

"To call back players to join the Sudirman team is the PBSI's responsibility. If the association really needs them, they should approach the players at least a month before the event."

jutawin

04-08-2009, 11:17 AM

China already have 2 points from WS & WD.. INA have to win in MS, MD & XD..
we have to be realistic, China still have the biggest chance.
in Thomas Cup, other countries still have possibility to win it.

ye333

04-08-2009, 12:15 PM

In the past, Youngsters were fielded because either they are already good enough to challenge any top player, like LD, BCL, Hafiz in 2002, TH in 2000, or there is no other choice, like Simon Santoso in 2004.

The youngsters need the experience in team event to play MS2 & MS3 in TC in 2010. For countries other than China, TC is more important as in they have a better chance of winning. The pressure is definitely higher in TC since singles dept is being counted on to deliver 3 pts.

madbad

04-08-2009, 12:16 PM

For MS, though, i do think INA should include Andre T.K.

Andre did confirm he's not involved in the Sudirman Cup when he was in Vancouver last week.

I'm wondering, isn't that a rather huge squad? Isn't there a limit on the number of players you can name?

jutawin

04-08-2009, 12:36 PM

ctjcad

04-08-2009, 06:56 PM

At least TH and SDK can then take turns. (Honestly, TH has better chance than SDK. The only opponent TH having a less than 50% chance is LD. 50-50 with LCW. TH holds upper hand against PG, PSH, BP, not to say Smith).

The fact is, INA cannot afford to lose the MS point to almost any opponent in the top 8. Take England. England has the ability to beat INA in MD, WD and XD. The only point that will go to INA is WS -- if MKY is back in form. How about Thailand? INA has no guarantee in any of the 5 matches.

It's not about SDK afraid of being overworked or not. The fact is, unless INA does not care about winning, SDK will have to play every match and get exhausted.

Finally I don't think putting youngsters into any of the "cups" is wise. Too much responsibility. If you really want them to improve, send them to more SSs.
..until the youngsters start to take some responsibility?? What's the purpose of sending the youngsters to more Super Series but at the end they don't even get a chance to compete in the Sudirman Cup or other team events??..
If the INA squad fails this time, would you send Taufik and other veterans, again, in 2011??..:confused::p

Your post is sounding more optimistic abt INA's chances than even a lot of the INA supporters in here:p...Heck, you're making it like the INA squad is in desperation to have Taufik and other veterans back..:p

I mean really, if you think INA won't win the Sudirman Cup, anyway, wouldn't it be wiser to send and expose the youngsters now than later??..:cool:
Andre did confirm he's not involved in the Sudirman Cup when he was in Vancouver last week.

I'm wondering, isn't that a rather huge squad? Isn't there a limit on the number of players you can name?
..i was thinking, if there's a limit to the squad, then they can take out one of the Men's Doubles players and add Andre (4 Men's Singles). Or, take out Simon (since he hasn't done anything significant anyway) and replace him with Andre (so, it'll be Sony, Andre and Tommy).

CLELY

04-08-2009, 11:50 PM

INA's squad for Sudirman Cup 2009

WS : Maria Kristin, Adriyanti Firdasari

Lindaweni Fanetri also will join INA Sudirman team -- KOMPAS (April 09, 2009).

ye333

04-09-2009, 02:27 PM

Honestly I dont care whether INA won the cup or got eliminated in the group stage. I just don't understand the rationale behind keeping TH out. INA is the only one who chose not to send its best players, right? :cool:

..until the youngsters start to take some responsibility?? What's the purpose of sending the youngsters to more Super Series but at the end they don't even get a chance to compete in the Sudirman Cup or other team events??..
If the INA squad fails this time, would you send Taufik and other veterans, again, in 2011??..:confused::p

Your post is sounding more optimistic abt INA's chances than even a lot of the INA supporters in here:p...Heck, you're making it like the INA squad is in desperation to have Taufik and other veterans back..:p

I mean really, if you think INA won't win the Sudirman Cup, anyway, wouldn't it be wiser to send and expose the youngsters now than later??..:cool:

..i was thinking, if there's a limit to the squad, then they can take out one of the Men's Doubles players and add Andre (4 Men's Singles). Or, take out Simon (since he hasn't done anything significant anyway) and replace him with Andre (so, it'll be Sony, Andre and Tommy).

badadum

04-09-2009, 07:18 PM

I concur. INA should send the best available team, besides, its not like their chances to win the Sudirman Cup is exactly 0%. What's the point of weakening your chances from the get go?? :confused:
There're plenty of other event for the youngster to gain the so-called experience.

BTW, head to head, Tommy will probably win 3 out of 5 against Andre. OTOH, Andre has proven he can beat other coutries player....something that Tommy still lacks.

Honestly I dont care whether INA won the cup or got eliminated in the group stage. I just don't understand the rationale behind keeping TH out. INA is the only one who chose not to send its best players, right? :cool:

jutawin

04-10-2009, 05:12 AM

If INA bring the youngsters but don't play them. It's better for them to stay at Pelatnas & train more..

YeLLoWind

04-11-2009, 09:02 AM

JUst wait n see n pray ... ^_^

ctjcad

04-11-2009, 01:03 PM

Honestly I dont care whether INA won the cup or got eliminated in the group stage. I just don't understand the rationale behind keeping TH out. INA is the only one who chose not to send its best players, right? :cool:
..if they don't win, again, are you going to keep sending him and other veteran players to whatever the next team events are (TC or UC or SC)??..
What do you mean by "INA is the only one who chose not to send its best players, right?"...Of course they are..
:confused:

ye333

04-16-2009, 03:49 PM

TH is obviously stronger than SS, TS, Andre, etc etc. (It we look at recent performance, TH did much better than Sony too. Yet TH is not included. So INA chose not to include its current best MS player. Isn't that a bit weird? ;) I don't think any other country has ever done such thing in the past, say, 10 years.

For team events, if you want to win, send the best players you have. Otherwise why did Denmark still include PG?

..if they don't win, again, are you going to keep sending him and other veteran players to whatever the next team events are (TC or UC or SC)??..
What do you mean by "INA is the only one who chose not to send its best players, right?"...Of course they are..
:confused:

ctjcad

04-17-2009, 03:15 AM

jutawin

04-17-2009, 04:29 AM

Each country sould send their best players to team event..
For young players, they should prove something in individual event.
INA young players still can not do much..

ctjcad

04-17-2009, 05:29 AM

..if the young players continue & still can't prove anything in individual events, do you want to keep sending the veteran players until their legs fall off??..:confused:

huangkwokhau

04-17-2009, 06:06 AM

TH is obviously stronger than SS, TS, Andre, etc etc. (It we look at recent performance, TH did much better than Sony too. Yet TH is not included. So INA chose not to include its current best MS player. Isn't that a bit weird? ;) I don't think any other country has ever done such thing in the past, say, 10 years.

For team events, if you want to win, send the best players you have. Otherwise why did Denmark still include PG?
There is a story behind it why INA did not include TH ...........
Eventhough TH said in publicly that he would play if he was called...TH prefers that PBSI did not depend on him on Sudirman Cup...he will not mind playing for INA for next thomas cup.....same thing why Vita was not included as she clearly said that she wont participate when she was asked....thats why it prompted PBSI's chairman to warn them that no matter what those "so called independent players" still needs PBSI as they need PBSI to register them...

huangkwokhau

04-17-2009, 06:10 AM

..TH is much better than the rest of INA #2 to #50 MS player...
I'm sure you feel it'll continue to be a fact for the next 2-4 or maybe 6-8 yrs, barring any major injury or retirement to TH.
If that's the case, i guess you're willing to sacrifice the younger players' future just for the sake of TH continuing to play for INA's Sudirman or Thomas Cup teams??..
Question is, how long will this last? Will you keep sending him til he's 40 yrs old? If you're willing, then that's definitely "weird". People are going to ask, what happened to INA's "regeneration" process? What happened to their young players? Still depending on the Wild Child of Badminton to save their sport/badminton tradition??
If you prefer INA to send Taufik, this yr, what do you think are their chances to win the Cup back?? Realistically?? If it's less than 50%, then what's the purpose of sending him & other veterans??

As for PG still playing for DEN, yes, what about it? I have no clue why they are or he is still representing DEN's Sudirman and Thomas Cup teams. Perhaps, that's the reason also they haven't won or reached the Finals round of the Sudirman Cup since 10 yrs ago.:eek:
Each country has their own reason to include young or old players.....in my opinion it is the ebst to mix young and old.....look at China...they include young players too...INA needs to take a risk...if we do not win...so what????...at least PBSI gives young ones to try....they can succeed and they can fail at the same time.....PBSI's chairman is willing to take risk when old players decided not to join PBSI......at least they were given the chance...they turned it down to join the INA squad....so be it!!..INA badminton has to move on...even we have to be ready when there is no title....anyway..I think thats a bold move from PBSI...

jutawin

04-17-2009, 08:52 AM

..if the young players continue & still can't prove anything in individual events, do you want to keep sending the veteran players until their legs fall off??..:confused:
Maybe, that's the only way..

ye333

04-17-2009, 09:46 AM

ye333

04-17-2009, 09:47 AM

This answers my question perfectly... Thanks Hauge.

There is a story behind it why INA did not include TH ...........
Eventhough TH said in publicly that he would play if he was called...TH prefers that PBSI did not depend on him on Sudirman Cup...he will not mind playing for INA for next thomas cup.....same thing why Vita was not included as she clearly said that she wont participate when she was asked....thats why it prompted PBSI's chairman to warn them that no matter what those "so called independent players" still needs PBSI as they need PBSI to register them...

badadum

04-17-2009, 03:01 PM

Each country has their own reason to include young or old players.....in my opinion it is the ebst to mix young and old.....look at China...they include young players too...INA needs to take a risk...if we do not win...so what????...at least PBSI gives young ones to try....they can succeed and they can fail at the same time.....PBSI's chairman is willing to take risk when old players decided not to join PBSI......at least they were given the chance...they turned it down to join the INA squad....so be it!!..INA badminton has to move on...even we have to be ready when there is no title....anyway..I think thats a bold move from PBSI...

Bold yes, but unreasonable as well. Gotta respectfully disagree on this Hau-ge. PBSI needs to send the best team they can possibly field. If the young players can't be depended on performing on GP Gold or SS events, what's the reasoning on letting them represent the country in arguably the biggest tourney for the year? :confused:

Of course, if Taufik and Vita rejects the invitations, that's another thing alltogether. :(

huangkwokhau

04-17-2009, 06:22 PM

Bold yes, but unreasonable as well. Gotta respectfully disagree on this Hau-ge. PBSI needs to send the best team they can possibly field. If the young players can't be depended on performing on GP Gold or SS events, what's the reasoning on letting them represent the country in arguably the biggest tourney for the year? :confused:

Of course, if Taufik and Vita rejects the invitations, that's another thing alltogether. :(
The chances to win Sudirman Cup this year is slim..we have to be realistic....since this is the best players we have in our squad..I think it is good to try young ones...it is costly but we have to make a way to groom younger players...we can not depend on old players..I remember that same thing happened in 1980's...

Han

04-17-2009, 06:38 PM

The chances to win Sudirman Cup this year is slim..we have to be realistic....since this is the best players we have in our squad..I think it is good to try young ones...it is costly but we have to make a way to groom younger players...we can not depend on old players..I remember that same thing happened in 1980's...

Having mix feeling about your reasoning. In a way, it's true to groom young players but I also happen to believe Indonesia can actually mount a fierce challenge to China as you do have big time players in almost all events like :
XD : Limpele/Marissa and Widianto/Natsir;
MS : Taufik/Sony;
WD : Natsir/Marrisa/Polli
MD : Kido/Setiawan/Wijaya
WS : No impact player

The lineup is even more impressive than Malaysia! Is there something there you're not telling us :D

huangkwokhau

04-17-2009, 06:48 PM

Having mix feeling about your reasoning. In a way, it's true to groom young players but I also happen to believe Indonesia can actually mount a fierce challenge to China as you do have big time players in almost all events like :
XD : Limpele/Marissa and Widianto/Natsir;
MS : Taufik/Sony;
WD : Natsir/Marrisa/Polli
MD : Kido/Setiawan/Wijaya
WS : No impact player

The lineup is even more impressive than Malaysia! Is there something there you're not telling us :D
:D..well.....
Even INA can challenge China in final, I think CHN will win....
there is so many changes in INA badminton...coaches, etc and it may affect them as I can not say too much here...
a. Maria, Sony and Kido are still hampered by injuries.
b. Old players are not there like Vita/Flandy/Alvent/TH/or Candra Wijaya..

Basically, INA badminton will be more stable next year after those players get used to new programs, rules and other factors..

abesadi

04-17-2009, 07:45 PM

I just hope all player in the team can give the best for their country, Indonesia..

Perhaps there is so many problem in pelatnas, pbsi etc, keep spirit to fight for indonesia..

SEMANGAT!

george@chongwei

04-17-2009, 11:10 PM

all the best to ina's sudirman cup squad to for this year sudirman cup;)

pjswift

04-18-2009, 12:00 AM

INA's line up suggests that if they are not going to win SC, they might as well field young ones to give them exposure (even once can make a big difference) for next year's TC and UC.
The experienced players are either recovering from injuries (MCY,MK,SDK) or on decline with age (FL and NW of the XDs) If say,INA cannot get points from them,what chance is there to win SC? Might as well treat it as experience opportunity for the young.Still,INA's been known to surprise,so all the best to INA.

ctjcad

04-18-2009, 10:30 AM

If INA has say 2 SDKs and 5 SSs (roughly the situation of the Chinese team;)), I don't have any objection not including TH...

Anyway, you must be a very pessimistic man as you think TH will still be at least INA no.2 in the next 6-8 yrs... :D If that happens INA would be in a situation like today's Denmark, people will go on street and strike I guess...:cool:
..well, i'm not very pessimistic. In fact, more of a realist. Very realistic of what they could and/or could not accomplish.:cool:
As for TH, in my eyes, he's still INA #1 MS player, despite his world ranking and no longer part of INA national squad. #2 would be Sony.
Yes, if the trend continues and the veterans stay still in the national squad, what will happen to the future of the national squad.
Bold yes, but unreasonable as well. Gotta respectfully disagree on this Hau-ge. PBSI needs to send the best team they can possibly field. If the young players can't be depended on performing on GP Gold or SS events, what's the reasoning on letting them represent the country in arguably the biggest tourney for the year? :confused:

Of course, if Taufik and Vita rejects the invitations, that's another thing alltogether. :(
Having mix feeling about your reasoning. In a way, it's true to groom young players but I also happen to believe Indonesia can actually mount a fierce challenge to China as you do have big time players in almost all events like :
XD : Limpele/Marissa and Widianto/Natsir;
MS : Taufik/Sony;
WD : Natsir/Marrisa/Polli
MD : Kido/Setiawan/Wijaya
WS : No impact player

The lineup is even more impressive than Malaysia! Is there something there you're not telling us :D
..guys, if you need proof of INA's chances, take a look at the INA squad's last 2 Sudirman Cup appearances. Yes, they reached the Finals round but guess what were the scoreline (check on wikipedia if don't know)? And those were with the above names (veteran players) included...

jutawin

04-18-2009, 01:50 PM

INA have same squad from year to year..

badadum

04-18-2009, 05:30 PM

.well, i'm not very pessimistic. In fact, more of a realist. Very realistic of what they could and/or could not accomplish.:cool:
As for TH, in my eyes, he's still INA #1 MS player, despite his world ranking and no longer part of INA national squad. #2 would be Sony.
Yes, if the trend continues and the veterans stay still in the national squad, what will happen to the future of the national squad.

..guys, if you need proof of INA's chances, take a look at the INA squad's last 2 Sudirman Cup appearances. Yes, they reached the Finals round but guess what were the scoreline (check on wikipedia if don't know)? And those were with the above names (veteran players) included...

And what are the chances of the present team even getting to the final? Most here seemed to peg either KOR or DEN to meet china in the final (depending on group drawing), despite the poll. :cool:

I already stated my point. INA needs to send the best team they've, which in your own accord, will need to include TH as INA #1 MS. Wanting to groom the young players is all fine and dandy, but there's SS and GP tourney to do that...not a tourney where national pride is in play.

Lets put it this way, what's the chances of china not including LD in the their team?

The veteran should stay there until the youngsters proven they can unseat the veterans. Its not like the INA veterans is a bunch of dead weight who won't win anymore title anyway.

badadum

04-18-2009, 05:34 PM

ctjcad

04-19-2009, 01:41 AM

And what are the chances of the present team even getting to the final? Most here seemed to peg either KOR or DEN to meet china in the final (depending on group drawing), despite the poll. :cool:

I already stated my point. INA needs to send the best team they've, which in your own accord, will need to include TH as INA #1 MS. Wanting to groom the young players is all fine and dandy, but there's SS and GP tourney to do that...not a tourney where national pride is in play.

Lets put it this way, what's the chances of china not including LD in the their team?

The veteran should stay there until the youngsters proven they can unseat the veterans. Its not like the INA veterans is a bunch of dead weight who won't win anymore title anyway.
- Even if INA would reach the Finals round, again, what's the difference between finishing 2th or 3rd or 4th or 5th place?? All they can do is stare up and down the winning team on the podium.
As long as INA could stay in the main group for the next Sudirman Cup, they should be happy.
- I stated INA's true #1 MS is still Taufik. However, i never mentioned PBSI should include him or other veteran players, or those left-overs from the previous Sudirman Cup team, in this yr's Sudirman Cup team or future team events.
- What are the chances of China not including LD in their team? I don't know. But my feeling is, even without his presence, they would probably still win the Sudirman Cup.
- In INA's case, if the veterans should stay and stick around until the youngsters can prove they can unseat the veterans, how long will that be?
Personally, i don't see any INA MS player(s) or pair(s) who can really unseat their current active veterans, other than the veterans themselves resigning/retiring. Do you see any of those potentials??..

As a recall, CHN beat INA 3-0 in the 2007 SC, and did it by beating INA at their own game, by winning 2 of INA's best events.

Again, back to my questions:
1. If anyone feels PBSI should include TH and other veteran players in the Sudirman Cup squad, please explain the reason?
2. If the reason is so that they have a chance to win the cup, how realistic of a chance do they have?
That's exactly my point Hauge. The players chosen in the Sudirman Cup's team are the best players available in PELATNAS. They're not the best players in INA.
..actually, Hau-ge's point is: Out with the old and in with the new..Time to move on..:cool:

badadum

04-20-2009, 07:16 AM

- Even if INA would reach the Finals round, again, what's the difference between finishing 2th or 3rd or 4th or 5th place?? All they can do is stare up and down the winning team on the podium.
As long as INA could stay in the main group for the next Sudirman Cup, they should be happy.
- I stated INA's true #1 MS is still Taufik. However, i never mentioned PBSI should include him or other veteran players, or those left-overs from the previous Sudirman Cup team, in this yr's Sudirman Cup team or future team events.
- What are the chances of China not including LD in their team? I don't know. But my feeling is, even without his presence, they would probably still win the Sudirman Cup.
- In INA's case, if the veterans should stay and stick around until the youngsters can prove they can unseat the veterans, how long will that be?
Personally, i don't see any INA MS player(s) or pair(s) who can really unseat their current active veterans, other than the veterans themselves resigning/retiring. Do you see any of those potentials??..

As a recall, CHN beat INA 3-0 in the 2007 SC, and did it by beating INA at their own game, by winning 2 of INA's best events.

Again, back to my questions:
1. If anyone feels PBSI should include TH and other veteran players in the Sudirman Cup squad, please explain the reason?
2. If the reason is so that they have a chance to win the cup, how realistic of a chance do they have?

..actually, Hau-ge's point is: Out with the old and in with the new..Time to move on..:cool:

I already stated my reason Chris. I believe INA needs to muster their best team, and like it or not, that best team will have to include TH as INA best MS. INA WD of Vita/Butet can provides a good battle against any of the China's WD, while Mel/Shendy still lacking and probably will got steamrolled. Flandy/Vita is still an elite XD as well.

Lets be frank, what's the chances of ENG or MAS or KOR to win it the Sudirman Cup? It won't be more than 5-10% more of INA's chances. Does that mean they should start sending their young 2nd tier player as well? Replaced PG and TR with their younger counterparts and let JJS fulfil his duty to defend his motherland..... and DEN and KOR chances are left pretty bleak. What's the point of having a Sudirman Cup, if countries would only send their 2nd tier player?

Hauge was pointing out that the current team already includes the best players, my point is they're the best players in Pelatnas, not in INA.

abedeng

04-20-2009, 07:37 AM

Chris, Badadum has a point in having the best lineup possible, if only to show seriousness of intent. From a fan's perspective, I would agree with him.

Of course, from the perspective of grandeur in Malaysia at least, the Sudirman Cup has not reached the same pinnacle as the Thomas and Uber Cups. Yet it is still not acceptable for us not to parade our best lineup. Even if the title is out of reach, which it isn't, there is still pride to be gained for finishing 2nd, 3rd etc. Especially when playing in the dragon's domain.

By all means, blooding the younger squad as Hauge mentioned is perfectly acceptable (and makes sense as well given INA's situation). But if fielding players for experience is the main goal, wouldn't it be better if the injured players be given a break for healing instead of bringing them along?

There has to be focus, the fact that some injured players are still in the squad shows that INA actually still harbours hopes of success, yet the squad depth (on paper) is not strong enough to mount a real challenge.

Jagdpanther

04-20-2009, 08:25 AM

I already stated my reason Chris. I believe INA needs to muster their best team, and like it or not, that best team will have to include TH as INA best MS. INA WD of Vita/Butet can provides a good battle against any of the China's WD, while Mel/Shendy still lacking and probably will got steamrolled. Flandy/Vita is still an elite XD as well.

Lets be frank, what's the chances of ENG or MAS or KOR to win it the Sudirman Cup? It won't be more than 5-10% more of INA's chances. Does that mean they should start sending their young 2nd tier player as well? Replaced PG and TR with their younger counterparts and let JJS fulfil his duty to defend his motherland..... and DEN and KOR chances are left pretty bleak. What's the point of having a Sudirman Cup, if countries would only send their 2nd tier player?

Hauge was pointing out that the current team already includes the best players, my point is they're the best players in Pelatnas, not in INA.
Well, when it comes to big matters as 'defending the pride of his motherland, Indonesia', Taufik has disappointed me, and probably entire people of Indonesia, big time, TWICE.

First, Thomas Cup 2008. Yes, the one that was held in our home ground, Gelora Bung Karno stadium. Indonesia vs Thailand. INA fielded Taufik. Our neighbour fielded 17 y.o. Tanongsak Saensomboonsuk (have ever heard his name before? ;)). On paper, Taufik could've wrapped up the game in straight sets, and INA might win a straight 3-0.
And the result was? Taufik humiliated himself in front of many loyal INA fans with a straight sets. I didn't have to tell you how INA people responded his defeat, did I? :p

Second, the Olympic Games, Beijing 2008. Every INA people had high hopes on him. Result? He packed up right after his first match.

And I think no one will disagree that both Olympic and Thomas Cup are two big events in badminton. When our nation's pride is at stake. ;)

Now, if in any way, he is finally admitted as part of INA's Sudirman Team, are you certain that he won't disappoint us for the 3rd time? :rolleyes:

abesadi

04-20-2009, 08:54 AM

badadum

04-20-2009, 09:15 AM

jutawin

04-20-2009, 10:59 AM

Well, when it comes to big matters as 'defending the pride of his motherland, Indonesia', Taufik has disappointed me, and probably entire people of Indonesia, big time, TWICE.

First, Thomas Cup 2008. Yes, the one that was held in our home ground, Gelora Bung Karno stadium. Indonesia vs Thailand. INA fielded Taufik. Our neighbour fielded 17 y.o. Tanongsak Saensomboonsuk (have ever heard his name before? ;)). On paper, Taufik could've wrapped up the game in straight sets, and INA might win a straight 3-0.
And the result was? Taufik humiliated himself in front of many loyal INA fans with a straight sets. I didn't have to tell you how INA people responded his defeat, did I? :p

Second, the Olympic Games, Beijing 2008. Every INA people had high hopes on him. Result? He packed up right after his first match.

And I think no one will disagree that both Olympic and Thomas Cup are two big events in badminton. When our nation's pride is at stake. ;)

Now, if in any way, he is finally admitted as part of INA's Sudirman Team, are you certain that he won't disappoint us for the 3rd time? :rolleyes:

I want to correct something here..
Thomas cup 2008 was held in ISTORA SENAYAN. Gelora Bung Karno stadium is for football match..
TC '08 (INA v THA), if Taufik won against Tanangsok, the score would be 2-1 for INA, not 3-0. After Sony lost the 1st game against Boonsak..
For Olympic, a week before Olympic started, Taufik got opnamed in hospital after got high fever..

ctjcad

04-20-2009, 12:00 PM

..actually he can no longer win against the big boys!!
He can only win in a GP or GP Gold type tourneys or exhibition type events, where the best of the best players are missing. Period!!
So, stop hoping & expecting for Taufik to deliver the goods!!
I already stated my reason Chris. I believe INA needs to muster their best team, and like it or not, that best team will have to include TH as INA best MS. INA WD of Vita/Butet can provides a good battle against any of the China's WD, while Mel/Shendy still lacking and probably will got steamrolled. Flandy/Vita is still an elite XD as well.

Lets be frank, what's the chances of ENG or MAS or KOR to win it the Sudirman Cup? It won't be more than 5-10% more of INA's chances. Does that mean they should start sending their young 2nd tier player as well? Replaced PG and TR with their younger counterparts and let JJS fulfil his duty to defend his motherland..... and DEN and KOR chances are left pretty bleak. What's the point of having a Sudirman Cup, if countries would only send their 2nd tier player?

Hauge was pointing out that the current team already includes the best players, my point is they're the best players in Pelatnas, not in INA.
..i am still fully and wholeheartedly respectfully disagree, given what they've shown in the last 2 editions of the Sudirman Cup. If they can't muster any better result than those 2, which i'm sure you are expecting the same, i still no reason to add any veteran players.
Time to move on and groom up the younger players. It's for their own good!

As for Hau-ge's point, whether those player are the best players Pelatnas/PBSI has, his main point is still: for the good and betterment of the INA squad, it's time to expose those youngsters. Basically, INA is going into this yr's Sudirman Cup for trial & error & experience purposes, no big expectation. If they advance far, great, if not, great also.
Chris, Badadum has a point in having the best lineup possible, if only to show seriousness of intent. From a fan's perspective, I would agree with him.

Of course, from the perspective of grandeur in Malaysia at least, the Sudirman Cup has not reached the same pinnacle as the Thomas and Uber Cups. Yet it is still not acceptable for us not to parade our best lineup. Even if the title is out of reach, which it isn't, there is still pride to be gained for finishing 2nd, 3rd etc. Especially when playing in the dragon's domain.

By all means, blooding the younger squad as Hauge mentioned is perfectly acceptable (and makes sense as well given INA's situation). But if fielding players for experience is the main goal, wouldn't it be better if the injured players be given a break for healing instead of bringing them along?

There has to be focus, the fact that some injured players are still in the squad shows that INA actually still harbours hopes of success, yet the squad depth (on paper) is not strong enough to mount a real challenge.
..and if the younger players don't produce or show any improvement, how long will they field & trot out the "best players" out there?? 2, 4, 6, 8 more yrs??:confused:

badadum

04-20-2009, 03:45 PM

..actually he can no longer win against the big boys!!
He can only win in a GP or GP Gold type tourneys or exhibition type events, where the best of the best players are missing. Period!!
So, stop hoping & expecting for Taufik to deliver the goods!!

Unless your definition of "big boys" is LD alone, I think TH can still score a victory against the top players. Heck, he did beat LCW twice late last year and gave a very close entertaining fight in SO, as well as beating PG in AE this year. ;)
Let's put it this way, I'm expecting Taufik to deliver better performance than Sony or Simon. :o

As for Hau-ge's point, whether those player are the best players Pelatnas/PBSI has, his main point is still: for the good and betterment of the INA squad, it's time to expose those youngsters. Basically, INA is going into this yr's Sudirman Cup for trial & error & experience purposes, no big expectation. If they advance far, great, if not, great also.

..and if the younger players don't produce or show any improvement, how long will they field & trot out the "best players" out there?? 2, 4, 6, 8 more yrs??:confused:

I'm questioning why on earth INA wants to treat Sudirman Cup as you put it "trial & error & experience purposes" ??? What's next? Are you going to send your 2nd team to TC and UC just because the chances to win = slim??

As stated before, there're plenty of opportunity to expose the junior players. Lets start at GP and SS levels first and make sure they performs.
Now if you're questioning why INA doesn't send more of their junior players to GP and SS tourneys....well, money's a bit hard to come by these days for all of us. :(

pramana

04-20-2009, 04:53 PM

Bottom line:
There is nothing more to offer at this moment. The highest target is probably Semi Final. If they can pass South Korea, I think it is more than accomplishment :rolleyes:

limsy

04-20-2009, 11:31 PM

CLELY

04-21-2009, 02:15 AM

to me
th is still better than sdk.;)
hehe,yes,sdk is wc silver medalist,he is better than lcw tat never enter wc final;),so,sdk is good enough to beat lcw;):D
sdk can beat psh,as and bp.
facing others,he still have chance

SDK can contribute winning point if INA meets ENG, JPN, HKG and DEN. Not sure against KOR, since he lost to Park Sung Hwan twice last year (ABC 2008 and Thomas Cup semifinal). And it'll be tough chance against MAS and CHN with their top-gun, Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan respectively.

limsy

04-21-2009, 08:13 AM

SDK can contribute winning point if INA meets ENG, JPN, HKG and DEN. Not sure against KOR, since he lost to Park Sung Hwan twice last year (ABC 2008 and Thomas Cup semifinal). And it'll be tough chance against MAS and CHN with their top-gun, Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan respectively.

wow,u so confident that sdk can beat pg?:eek:how is their head to head:confused:

ctjcad

04-21-2009, 04:16 PM

Unless your definition of "big boys" is LD alone, I think TH can still score a victory against the top players. Heck, he did beat LCW twice late last year and gave a very close entertaining fight in SO, as well as beating PG in AE this year. ;)
Let's put it this way, I'm expecting Taufik to deliver better performance than Sony or Simon. :o

I'm questioning why on earth INA wants to treat Sudirman Cup as you put it "trial & error & experience purposes" ??? What's next? Are you going to send your 2nd team to TC and UC just because the chances to win = slim??

As stated before, there're plenty of opportunity to expose the junior players. Lets start at GP and SS levels first and make sure they performs.
Now if you're questioning why INA doesn't send more of their junior players to GP and SS tourneys....well, money's a bit hard to come by these days for all of us. :(
- My definition of "big boys", "bests of the bests" is LCW and LD. PG, IMO, falls in the same category as TH. However, those 3 have at least won a SS title. TH??
Like i mentioned, TH can only win in GP or GP Gold or Open or exhibition type tourneys; or when there are less top level competitions. Sure, he beat LCW, but really, how much of a challenge did TH encounter along the way?? "Close entertaining fight" doesn't really count because there are so many "close entertaining matches" performed by other players in every tourney.

- The "trial, error & experience" purpose is for this yr's squad. Never suggested sending 2nd or 3rd squad. What i meant is, it's time to send the youngsters out there, esp. those who've had enough international exposure. Ready or not, let's see what they've got.
If the 1st squad, with all the veterans, can't win against China in the last 2 SC editions, then the question is what is there to gain by sending the same squad with the likelihood of them coming back home empty handed??..
Frankly, do you even see any potential INA younger players up in the horizon, singles or doubles? Simon? Andre? Tommy? doubles players?? If the reason not to send Taufik and other veteran players is because the younger players aren't ready, haven't shown anything, don't have a chance, do you really think the younger players will have a chance to represent INA in the future, considering their outlook?

I think it's safe to say: INA has everything to gain when they send the younger players to be exposed to higher level team competition (such as the SC, TC, UC). And vice versa, they have nothing to gain when they send the veteran players. You can also put it this way: just consider Taufik and other veteran players are no longer in Pelatnas, non-existent. Who will they rely on now?
By sending TH and all the veterans, again, basically you're setting up a loftier goal "to win" than a realistic goal.

IMO, the younger players (e.g. Simon, Andre, Tommy and other doubles players) have already been exposed/sent to enough tourneys; be it GP, GP Gold, SS.
We can probably tell their potential by their results. Now, if their results are any indication, then basically you're saying TH and other proven veterans should be representing INA in team events for the next 2, 4 yrs or longer. If so, when will the younger players get a chance to play in the team events? How long will it be?? How long will they wait??

huangkwokhau

04-21-2009, 06:31 PM

TH can stil win SS, Chris...before couple years ago,they said that PG wont win any tournaments...guess he did...at least TH put so much effort in training..it is much better when he was still in PBSI...I see some positive signs......If I were you, I will not say that He does not have chance........

ctjcad

04-21-2009, 06:41 PM

..we've all been waiting for what, 2+ yrs (since first inception of Super Series tourney)??...He came close to winning it last yr in the French Open SS...
Perhaps in the upcoming Indonesian Open SS, where LCW will be absent or maybe LD and other CHN players won't come, he'll finally win it..;)

I'm just waiting to see...

phaarix

04-21-2009, 07:14 PM

Oh no argument here, in fact I posted before that it was much better to send Simon to OG rather than a no-stamina TH, who just recovered from a fever to boot. Same thing with TC, he's definitely off-form (thanks to being busy campaigning for the in-law instead of training).

But TH's form has been good in the last couple of months and Sony isn't exactly in tip top shape himself, while Simon's result has been dissapointing. I do believe this time he'll be an upgrade over the other 2.

Exactly, he hadn't been impressive at all before those tournaments. I don't really see what the big surprise was (apart from maybe losing to Tanongsak). He just played the same way he had for the last year or so and inevitably lost to, at the time, better players.

But lately he's been making semifinals, beating top players (LCW, PG) and even occasionally winning a tournament. Can the same be said for Sony? Or Simon?? Sony hit a real good patch for a couple of SS, but plummeted to nothing almost immediately after. Based on current form, who here would put Sony or Simon ahead of Taufik?

..actually he can no longer win against the big boys!!
He can only win in a GP or GP Gold type tourneys or exhibition type events, where the best of the best players are missing. Period!!
So, stop hoping & expecting for Taufik to deliver the goods!!

Unless your definition of "big boys" is LD alone, I think TH can still score a victory against the top players. Heck, he did beat LCW twice late last year and gave a very close entertaining fight in SO, as well as beating PG in AE this year. ;)
Let's put it this way, I'm expecting Taufik to deliver better performance than Sony or Simon. :o

I really don't see where you get the idea he has this seemingly complete inability to beat "the big boys". Lin Dan is at his peak right now. So it's hard for anyone to beat him (not impossible though). Apart from him, who does Taufik have no chance against? He beat PG at this years AE. PG beat LCW right before that at the KO. Taufik has beaten LCW himself twice in a row late last year, and while getting thrashed at the AE SF, gave him a very close game in the Swiss (sorry, repeating Badadum).

It's just plain pessimism, and sure, it's partly warranted. I had practically given up on him too before his string of good results last year (which has continued until now). I think he's shown us enough lately. He's definitely fit to take on the other top players in the world. While the odds may still be against him against say LCW or LD, he's got a much better chance than either of the other two. And clearly the situation has changed since previous TC and OG. There's little point using them as examples when based on his form going into them he didn't have a real chance anyway.

I've said it before - Taufik is a different person on court now. He frequently smiles and looks like he's enjoying himself. Even after losing to LCW at Swiss. Before, he clearly lacked motivation and almost looked like he didn't want to be there on court.

ctjcad

04-21-2009, 07:22 PM

pjswift

04-21-2009, 08:57 PM

..even if they advance all the way to the Final, again, or by some miracle win it, what's the benefit of including Taufik and other veteran players in this yr's Sudirman Cup team? Anything to gain? Is it going to benefit the veteran players? Remember their results in the last 2 SC editions??..
Very well said and totally agree.
The key problem with TH is motivation.Judging by his performance record in team tournaments,his motivation is questionable so he would be unreliable to deliver a crucial point (maybe because he thought if he couldn't deliver,it's not the end, teammates might be able to make up for it or failure is a shared responsibility).When that seems the case,it's better to field another MS to give them exposure for future team tournaments.
In individual tournaments, especially with TH as an independent having to fund himself and winning glory for himself rather than PBSI, his motivation is expected to be probably at the highest in his career.So far,TH's losses has been largely due to his fitness.He has already shown he can challenge LCW and LD in his less than perfect physical condition.As Rudy suggested,TH has now been seriously working on his fitness;I wouldn't count TH out yet for a SS title.That willingness to toil physically is proof of TH's strong motivation.
TH must be highly match fit but need not match LCW or LD in fitness to upset them.This is because as badminton's most naturally gifted player,his 'A'game requires less energy than LCW or LD.

CLELY

04-22-2009, 12:52 AM

wow,u so confident that sdk can beat pg?:eek:how is their head to head:confused:

Based on BWF head-to-head statistics, SDK : PG -- 2-1 (SDK won their last duel in World Champ 2007). Not too confident lah, but I still believe SDK has good chance to overcome PG.

phaarix

04-22-2009, 12:57 AM

ye333

04-22-2009, 10:21 AM

I think their latest match is last year's super series final MSSF. PG won 21:10, 21:10.

Based on BWF head-to-head statistics, SDK : PG -- 2-1 (SDK won their last duel in World Champ 2007). Not too confident lah, but I still believe SDK has good chance to overcome PG.

CLELY

04-22-2009, 06:08 PM

I think their latest match is last year's super series final MSSF. PG won 21:10, 21:10.

Yup, you're right. Forgot that invitational tournament is excluded in BWF head-2-head record.

CLELY

04-22-2009, 11:48 PM

PBSI stated the minimum target for INA Sudirman team is out as finalist, similar with last two editions achievement. INA Sudirman squad will fly to Guangzhou on May 06. -- KOMPAS, 23 April 2009.

ctjcad

04-23-2009, 01:55 AM

For the sake of competition in my opinion. For the audience. So they know they've put in the best they could and have no regrets. This is a big event, and it deserves the best players.
..how will "the audience" benefit the players and esp. the younger players if they continue to play the veteran players over the younger players in crucial matches/major tourneys?
"For the sake of competition"?? Do you know the scoreline/what happened to the INA squad in the last 2 meetings vs. CHN in the Final??..

huangkwokhau

04-23-2009, 02:28 AM

ctjcad

04-23-2009, 02:32 AM

..i guess you didn't see my point in all this, or maybe haven't been following the posts closely:p:
I am in full support for the new selection of younger players to compete.
However, others prefer to see the same old, same old players perform (Taufik, Vita, Flandy etc.) because the younger players "haven't proven" anything. Using "for the audience", "for the sake of competition" as reasons.

huangkwokhau

04-23-2009, 02:35 AM

ctjcad

04-23-2009, 02:40 AM

..i prefer the INA squad to have a realistic chance of possibly not being the runner-ups, this time around. As long as they stay in the 1st group, that's fine (which i've mentioned before). Experience, esp. for the younger players, is what they'll gain. Of course, there will always be a mixed of veteran and younger players in nearly every team. The point i'm trying to make is, they should expose the younger players as early and as soon as possible. It's for their own good.
Other see it, if they want to expose the younger players, let them do it through SS, GP or other individual tourneys. Not through team event. Sudirman Cup is a big event thus we **must** bring out the best players out there.

huangkwokhau

04-23-2009, 02:44 AM

..i prefer the INA squad to have a realistic chance of possibly not being a runner-ups, this time around. As long as they stay in the 1st group, that's fine (which i've mentioned before). Experience, esp. for the younger players, is what they'll gain. There will always be a mixed of veteran and younger players. The point i'm trying to make is, they should expose the younger players as early and as soon as possible. It's for their own good.
Other see it, if they want to expose the younger players, let them do it through SS, GP or other individual tourneys. Not through team event, rather we **must** bring out the best players out there.
PBSI will send more younger players in more GP/GP Gold....then some SS...too expensive if those young players have to go thru qualifying and if they keep losing...not good for their confident...just like Vietnam Challenge...I think it is good to expose them...those young players need more matches to gain some experiences.....

ctjcad

04-23-2009, 02:48 AM

..for PBSI to send the younger players everywhere they want to. I think losing is part of their maturity process.
But to limit them in team events like (SC, TC or UC), how long will they have to wait to be able to finally perform, considering their continual struggle in individual tourneys?? When will the younger players get a chance if the veteran players are being sent & dependent on repeatedly in team events??..:confused:
Thus, like it or not, IMO, the younger players must also be exposed to team events like the SC, TC, UC as early as possible.

huangkwokhau

04-23-2009, 02:53 AM

..for PBSI to send the younger players everywhere they want to. I think losing is part of their maturity process.
But to limit them in team events like (SC, TC or UC), how long will they have to wait to be able to finally perform, considering their continual struggle in individual tourneys?? When will the younger players get a chance if the veteran players are being sent & dependent on repeatedly in team events??..:confused:
Thus, like it or not, the younger players must also be exposed to team events like the SC, TC, UC as early as possible.
Hopefully...we haveAsean games this year...Thomas cup next year..I think we will have new comers like Lindaweni in WS plus Shendy/Meili in Uber...some new MD in our thomas cup for sure

ctjcad

04-23-2009, 02:57 AM

..send them & get them exposed as much as possible.
Btw, the younger players, i meant, the ones which have enough experience but haven't had any chance to compete in big team events. Players like Andre, Tommy, WD pairs, MD pairs (Yoke, Fran etc., they've been around a while). If PBSI don't send them and actually let them play in big team events like this, when will they get their chance??

fastdrop

04-23-2009, 03:04 AM

INA team will have my full support. Win or loss. I have full trust in them.
AYO INA TEAM !!!

phaarix

04-23-2009, 03:50 AM

..how will "the audience" benefit the players and esp. the younger players if they continue to play the veteran players over the younger players in crucial matches/major tourneys?
"For the sake of competition"?? Do you know the scoreline/what happened to the INA squad in the last 2 meetings vs. CHN in the Final??..

Jeez... why do you keep bringing up China?? They have to GET to the final first >_>. Competition... you know... putting up their best fight against the other team :rolleyes:? The other team isn't always China, there are a lot of other teams here... I thought everyone had already decided that China was going to win. So if that's so clear cut, why even bring them up when I mention "competition"?

I have no idea what you're talking about in the first bit. The audience benefits from star players. This is the world mixed teams champs. I think the paying audience will be expecting to see the best of the best.

Are you saying it would be a missed opportunity for the younger players? I think it's already been stated many times that there are much more suitable places for up and comers to be getting experience. The younger players will just get wiped off the court here. Where's the experience in that? This isn't a training camp, and it shouldn't be treated as such.

ctjcad

04-23-2009, 04:02 AM

phaarix

04-23-2009, 04:20 AM

..Yes, sure, China is there. And sooner or later other teams must face CHN. Yes, you mentioned competition and i brought up the example of INA's 2 last SC results when they met CHN. Talk about competition...If you want competition, why not put up 2 or at least 1 point??..:o

What's that got to do with anything? As long as they gave it their best, then it couldn't have been any other way. The point here, is that if they don't put up there best, they could certainly regret it later. I'm NOT talking about China, I'm talking about losing before they reach their goal of the finals. For the sake of competition and for their own sake, they need to put in their best.

In the first bit, which i was referring to my earlier post, it basically asks how would sending veteran players or reaching the Final round, losing or winning it, benefit the veteran players? And esp. how it will benefit those younger players who probably won't even get a chance to play? In other words, what's the gain?
Not asking how it will benefit the "audience". Of course, the audience will always benefit from watching the pro players play.

So personally... if you were playing international badminton. You wouldn't want to make it to the finals? Glory for the country, glory for the players who made it happen. Why should it benefit the younger players? This tournament isn't FOR them, unless they can prove they're the best in the country. If they want to get better,then they have PLENTY of other opportunities to do so. Not here. It's not about getting better here. It's about competition. If every country just put up a bunch of second stringers (sure that's not quite the case), you'd hardly be able to call it the world mixed teams champs would you? So the audience doesn't matter now? I'm pretty sure the audience is half the reason the tournament even happens in the first place...

If the team events are not training camp, where else would they get the experience of playing in a team event? Talk about getting wiped off the court, do you remember what happened to INA's last 2 SC results in the Finals?? And no, they weren't young, inexperienced players.
Like i mentioned, if one is going by the results of the younger players, then i think it's safe to say they have little chance of competing or even playing in the team events. It'll always gonna be Taufik and the veteran players.

Thomas/Uber Cup. There's plenty of space there. Playing as a number 3, is not like playing as a number 1.

If the best players got wiped off the court, the younger players would likely not last 10 minutes... How on earth are they going to learn anything from that... what is the point...

How is being obliterated in the one or two matches they get in this tournament going to help them get better results in individual competition? How is it going to help them improve as players?

To be honest I'm not really fussed what Indonesia chooses to do. Good luck to them either way :)! I just don't see why you'd send less than the best. And I don't see how it could help anyone.

huangkwokhau

04-23-2009, 04:21 AM

oh boys............

phaarix

04-23-2009, 04:25 AM

oh boys............

Hey I like doing this though, haven't you noticed :)? Indonesia can send whoever they want, and if they really think it will benefit the younger players, then good luck to them! I'll still support them. I just think it's a silly decision.

ctjcad may be right. I may be completely wrong. It's just how I feel about it.

huangkwokhau

04-23-2009, 04:29 AM

Hey I like doing this though, haven't you noticed :)? Indonesia can send whoever they want, and if they really think it will benefit the younger players, then good luck to them! I'll still support them. I just think it's a silly decision.

ctjcad may be right. I may be completely wrong. It's just how I feel about it.
:D:D.....anyway..I will be there and cheering for them....thank you for your support though....all the ebst to INA team

ctjcad

04-23-2009, 04:40 AM

What's that got to do with anything? As long as they gave it their best, then it couldn't have been any other way. The point here, is that if they don't put up there best, they could certainly regret it later. I'm NOT talking about China, I'm talking about losing before they reach their goal of the finals. For the sake of competition and for their own sake, they need to put in their best.

So personally... if you were playing international badminton. You wouldn't want to make it to the finals? Glory for the country, glory for the players who made it happen. Why should it benefit the younger players? This tournament isn't FOR them, unless they can prove they're the best in the country. If they want to get better,then they have PLENTY of other opportunities to do so. Not here. It's not about getting better here. It's about competition. If every country just put up a bunch of second stringers (sure that's not quite the case), you'd hardly be able to call it the world mixed teams champs would you? So the audience doesn't matter now? I'm pretty sure the audience is half the reason the tournament even happens in the first place...

Thomas/Uber Cup. There's plenty of space there. Playing as a number 3, is not like playing as a number 1.

If the best players got wiped off the court, the younger players would likely not last 10 minutes... How on earth are they going to learn anything from that... what is the point...

How is being obliterated in the one or two matches they get in this tournament going to help them get better results in individual competition? How is it going to help them improve as players?

To be honest I'm not really fussed what Indonesia chooses to do. Good luck to them either way :)! I just don't see why you'd send less than the best. And I don't see how it could help anyone.
- Basically you're underestimating the INA's younger players??..:confused::confused: Regret what?? They tried it twice (2005 & 2007), with their best and experienced lineup and can't even get a point off of CHN..

- So, tell me, if this type of tournament is not for the younger, but somewhat experienced players, then what is?? What will qualify the younger players so they can earn their way to compete in the team event?? An Olympic title?? A World Championship title? An All-England title?? What will satisfy you?? What if the younger players don't reach those heights?? What if INA don't see another Taufik for another 8-10 yrs? Don't include them & keep on including Taufik and other veterans??
Like i mentioned, just imagine if Taufik & other veteran players are no longer playing. Who will they look for??..

- Younger players will definitely learn & improve from competing in such tough & pressure type team matches. Whatever they learn now, will benefit them in the future when they are asked to do so, again. Don't tell me an inexperienced players won't learn anything from losing. It's a gain on their part. That's the point.
If you're Taufik and other veteran players, what is there to gain or learn??

IMO, it is not about sending the best or not. The reality is, INA doesn't have a realistic chance of winning the SC title, at least for this yr. So, rather than pursuing something that's unattainable (bringing back the trophy), for now, why not cultivate and build up the younger players' mental fortitude and experience. INA's future is with the younger players. They're the ones who will carry the torch and try their luck the next time they compete. This is merely a learning ground for them, to build up their experience and fortitude. If you don't give 'em a chance now, or early, when will they get the chance??

phaarix

04-23-2009, 07:30 AM

- Basically you're underestimating the INA's younger players??..:confused::confused: Regret what?? They tried it twice (2005 & 2007), with their best and experienced lineup and can't even get a point off of CHN..

I might be underestimating them sure... but on what basis should I believe they can hold their own against the top players? Stop bringing up China. I already said that I'm talking about Indonesia's chances against the other countries. They made a goal to get to the final. Is that realistic if they aren't putting in their top team? It's kind of contradictory. Putting in a team for "experience" for the future generation. And yet aiming for the final?! I'm not saying they absolutely can't do it. But if they have a goal in mind, they could at least put in a real effort to make it happen.

- So, tell me, if this type of tournament is not for the younger, but somewhat experienced players, then what is?? What will qualify the younger players so they can earn their way to compete in the team event?? An Olympic title?? A World Championship title? An All-England title?? What will satisfy you?? What if the younger players don't reach those heights?? What if INA don't see another Taufik for another 8-10 yrs? Don't include them & keep on including Taufik and other veterans??
Like i mentioned, just imagine if Taufik & other veteran players are no longer playing. Who will they look for??..

That's blowing things completely out of proportion. Performing well does not mean winning the Olympics. And no, I wouldn't base it on anything other than how the players have done in comparison to their team mates (the other choices). In comparison to Taufik for example, the others have undoubtedly performed poorly recently. Haha I don't think it matters what satisfies me :D. And why ask that question. Obviously achieving very little has earned them a spot in the team because that's exactly what has happened!

Hmm... would you say Peter Gade should be left out of the Danish team? He's well past Taufik's age. I guess he must be taking up the spot of a future player as well is he? Ruining their hopes of ever making it in the badminton world... or something like that :rolleyes:... They could afford to in the European Mixed Teams, it's a different story here. The same applies to Indonesia. But apparently they are so confident they'll make it to the final they can take it easy.

- Younger players will definitely learn & improve from competing in such tough & pressure type team matches. Whatever they learn now, will benefit them in the future when they are asked to do so, again. Don't tell me an inexperienced players won't learn anything from losing. It's a gain on their part. That's the point.
If you're Taufik and other veteran players, what is there to gain or learn??

There are other opportunities. Thomas/Uber Cup (for the third time) is a much more reasonable place for them to get this experience, because chances are, with 3 singles and 2 doubles, they'll need to be called upon anyway. On top of that - playing at number 2 or 3 will still give them the pressure of performing for the nation, but likely place them against a more suitable opponent.

Everyone learns from losing a well fought match. But not so much when you get wiped off the court in a matter of minutes. Being outplayed in every aspect does not really help to identify your faults. Nor would it do much for confidence. There are other places to lose that do not involve crushing the hopes of a nation.

It's not about gaining! There's training (hey that rhymes), there's individual tournaments... heck, there are even club based team events that all these players have participated in! It's not like they have no team experience. It's not like they haven't felt pressure, and it's not like they haven't got any other chances! The top events, are for the top players! If you don't think there are enough other opportunities for lower ranked players to get team experience, then perhaps you should have a good chat to BWF.

IMO, it is not about sending the best or not. The reality is, INA doesn't have a realistic chance of winning the SC title, at least for this yr. So, rather than pursuing something that's unattainable (bringing back the trophy), for now, why not cultivate and build up the younger players' mental fortitude and experience. INA's future is with the younger players. They're the ones who will carry the torch and try their luck the next time they compete. This is merely a learning ground for them, to build up their experience and fortitude. If you don't give 'em a chance now, or early, when will they get the chance??

Very few countries in the entire tournament have a realistic chance of WINNING. At most 2 or 3... So according to you there is not much point in really even going. The point is not to strive to win. But to strive to do the best you possibly can. That may include winning, if you're say - China (duh - anything else would be a failure), or it may mean besting your previous effort. It's for national pride. Remember how much LCW's silver medal meant to Malaysia? Just like cricket, just like football, just like practically all other team sports. I can imagine the outcry if New Zealand sent an All Blacks team half made up of inexperienced players to the Rugby World Cup. If Badminton as a sport wants to be taken seriously. Then it's top events need to be taken seriously. And not, as you put it, a "learning ground".

New Zealand rugby for example, uses the less important matches to give their up and coming players experience. The Sudirman Cup doesn't fall under "less important" in my books.

If Indonesia wants to bring along second stringers for the smaller matches against weaker countries... go ahead. That's a good thing! But if you don't have the best for when you really need them, it's a team resigning themselves to failure.

Jagdpanther

04-23-2009, 08:33 AM

Everyone learns from losing a well fought match. But not so much when you get wiped off the court in a matter of minutes.

Honestly, mister...
Do you think INA juniors (come to think about it, they're not that 'junior' already) are THAT weak?

ye333

04-23-2009, 08:41 AM

Honestly, what do you think the scoreline would be like for TS vs LD or even CJ? ;)

Honestly, mister...
Do you think INA juniors (come to think about it, they're not that 'junior' already) are THAT weak?

Jagdpanther

04-23-2009, 08:51 AM

Honestly, what do you think the scoreline would be like for TS vs LD or even CJ? ;)
And do you think TH will give better opposition to a 100% LD? ;)
Heck, I can't even remember when was the last time he beat BCL.:rolleyes:

badadum

04-23-2009, 09:58 AM

And do you think TH will give better opposition to a 100% LD? ;)
Heck, I can't even remember when was the last time he beat BCL.:rolleyes:

I can't even remember the last time he beat china top 3 (LD, BCL, CJ). :p

IMO, it is not about sending the best or not. The reality is, INA doesn't have a realistic chance of winning the SC title, at least for this yr. So, rather than pursuing something that's unattainable (bringing back the trophy), for now, why not cultivate and build up the younger players' mental fortitude and experience. INA's future is with the younger players. They're the ones who will carry the torch and try their luck the next time they compete. This is merely a learning ground for them, to build up their experience and fortitude. If you don't give 'em a chance now, or early, when will they get the chance??

I guess in there lies our differences. To me its always about sending the best team possible, when it comes to represent one's nation. The juniors can make their marks and GP and SS tourney first and then have the privilege to represent the country.
And seriously, years from now, TH will be usurped by his juniors. It's a question of WHEN not IF.

ye333

04-23-2009, 10:05 AM

Isn't it obvious that the answer a definite "YES"? :confused::confused::confused:

And do you think TH will give better opposition to a 100% LD? ;)
Heck, I can't even remember when was the last time he beat BCL.:rolleyes:

ye333

04-23-2009, 10:12 AM

All in 2006... But things have changed. CJ and BCL's injuries have been getting worse in the past 3 years (remember what happened in last year's TC? ;) ), while TH seem stabilized. I would say the current TH has good chance beating them.

LD, of course, is a different story. But it's highly unlikely that he will reach his OG 08 level ever again. Against the AE/Swiss LD, TH should have some chance.

I can't even remember the last time he beat china top 3 (LD, BCL, CJ). :p

ctjcad

04-23-2009, 07:24 PM

I might be underestimating them sure... but on what basis should I believe they can hold their own against the top players? Stop bringing up China. I already said that I'm talking about Indonesia's chances against the other countries. They made a goal to get to the final. Is that realistic if they aren't putting in their top team? It's kind of contradictory. Putting in a team for "experience" for the future generation. And yet aiming for the final?! I'm not saying they absolutely can't do it. But if they have a goal in mind, they could at least put in a real effort to make it happen.

That's blowing things completely out of proportion. Performing well does not mean winning the Olympics. And no, I wouldn't base it on anything other than how the players have done in comparison to their team mates (the other choices). In comparison to Taufik for example, the others have undoubtedly performed poorly recently. Haha I don't think it matters what satisfies me :D. And why ask that question. Obviously achieving very little has earned them a spot in the team because that's exactly what has happened!

Hmm... would you say Peter Gade should be left out of the Danish team? He's well past Taufik's age. I guess he must be taking up the spot of a future player as well is he? Ruining their hopes of ever making it in the badminton world... or something like that :rolleyes:... They could afford to in the European Mixed Teams, it's a different story here. The same applies to Indonesia. But apparently they are so confident they'll make it to the final they can take it easy.

There are other opportunities. Thomas/Uber Cup (for the third time) is a much more reasonable place for them to get this experience, because chances are, with 3 singles and 2 doubles, they'll need to be called upon anyway. On top of that - playing at number 2 or 3 will still give them the pressure of performing for the nation, but likely place them against a more suitable opponent.

Everyone learns from losing a well fought match. But not so much when you get wiped off the court in a matter of minutes. Being outplayed in every aspect does not really help to identify your faults. Nor would it do much for confidence. There are other places to lose that do not involve crushing the hopes of a nation.

It's not about gaining! There's training (hey that rhymes), there's individual tournaments... heck, there are even club based team events that all these players have participated in! It's not like they have no team experience. It's not like they haven't felt pressure, and it's not like they haven't got any other chances! The top events, are for the top players! If you don't think there are enough other opportunities for lower ranked players to get team experience, then perhaps you should have a good chat to BWF.

Very few countries in the entire tournament have a realistic chance of WINNING. At most 2 or 3... So according to you there is not much point in really even going. The point is not to strive to win. But to strive to do the best you possibly can. That may include winning, if you're say - China (duh - anything else would be a failure), or it may mean besting your previous effort. It's for national pride. Remember how much LCW's silver medal meant to Malaysia? Just like cricket, just like football, just like practically all other team sports. I can imagine the outcry if New Zealand sent an All Blacks team half made up of inexperienced players to the Rugby World Cup. If Badminton as a sport wants to be taken seriously. Then it's top events need to be taken seriously. And not, as you put it, a "learning ground".

New Zealand rugby for example, uses the less important matches to give their up and coming players experience. The Sudirman Cup doesn't fall under "less important" in my books.

If Indonesia wants to bring along second stringers for the smaller matches against weaker countries... go ahead. That's a good thing! But if you don't have the best for when you really need them, it's a team resigning themselves to failure.
- I've a different take. By suggesting younger players to compete, they’re put in a position of playing w/a “nothing to lose” attitude. But by suggesting to put in the “best players” out there, basically they’re put in a position that “they are to win”, an “everything to lose” approach.
Sure, that’s PBSI’s (as well as other top teams’) goal which is to get to the final. Not mine. I think that’s a pretty lofty goal considering other top baddy teams have been much improved & ready. Realistically, IMO, as I mentioned before, as long as INA can stay in the 1st group, for this yr, that’s already good enough. What the younger players learn and gain from this SC tourney, that they will build upon for their next big team event(s).

- I asked that because you brought up the idea that the INA younger players don’t deserve a chance to play in this SC based on their accomplishment.
And since you brought that up, all I’m looking for is what criteria(s) will satisfy your standard for them to deserve a spot in the national team? What would you base it on? If it’s based on how the players have done in comparison to their teammates, do you really think the current INA younger players’ outlook will improve in the future?
(The tourneys i mentioned, i just brought those up as examples; nothing blown out of proportion).

- Re Gade still playing for Denmark. Problem w/Denmark, in my view, is their lack of (young) talents. That could perhaps be the reason why they’ve been sending Gade & Jonassen and the other veteran MD pairs, for seemingly forever. I don’t really see it that way with INA. IMO, PBSI has more talented young players/pairs playing in the circuit already. It’s time to see them perform in high level team events.

- They deserve to perform in Thomas & Uber Cup but not in Sudirman Cup?? Why?? Is one tourney more prestigious than the other? As far as I can see, both events require a team to get 3 points in order to win. Everyone is put in a spot to perform.

- So, by not giving them an opportunity to play even if they get wiped out, it will help the players/pairs in the future? By not letting them lose, even in a matter of minutes, it will do much for their confidence? Let’s see how they’ll perform the next time they are being put in a spotlight or pressure type situation.

- So, tell me what other team event opportunities out there will the younger players get a chance to perform in?? Club based team events vs. world class based team events? If it’s not about gaining, then please explain what will the veteran players gain by being sent numerous times?

- What makes you think the younger players will not do or give the best they possibly can to win? Of course, there is a point in going. But you have to look at it realistically, at least I am. Frankly, do you see INA winning the SC this yr? For this yr, the point of them going is to give their younger, somewhat experienced players a chance to perform and get a taste of playing in the Sudirman Cup.

- Personally, I always look at the realistic/overall chance. Always a hindsight to prepare and plan for the future. INA’s current veteran players have already had their time in the sun. It’s time to bring forth their younger, somewhat experienced players to the forefront and see what they can do. At the very least, you give them a chance to prove their worth. And at the very least, they have much more to gain by being involved & put in this type of situation & team events.
...
I guess in there lies our differences. To me its always about sending the best team possible, when it comes to represent one's nation. The juniors can make their marks and GP and SS tourney first and then have the privilege to represent the country.
And seriously, years from now, TH will be usurped by his juniors. It's a question of WHEN not IF.
..If the younger, somewhat experienced players are not being sent/exposed to team events now, how will they have “the best team possible” in the future? Instead you’ll have a bunch of inexperienced players playing, for the first time in their lifetime, in a high level/world class team event.
And if the juniors will need to make their marks in GP, SS tourneys first, how long do you think it will take?? 2, 4, 6, 8 or 10 more yrs. We've seen some of their accomplishments, so far, haven't we??
Of course, yrs from now, WHEN Taufik (and other veteran players) actually stops playing, the juniors will replace him. But then, what is there to talk about once Taufik & the other veteran players retire??
And do you think TH will give better opposition to a 100% LD? ;)
Heck, I can't even remember when was the last time he beat BCL.:rolleyes:
...(remember what happened in last year's TC? ;) ), while TH seem stabilized. I would say the current TH has good chance beating them.
...
..speaking of last yr's TC, all i remember is Taufik losing to Tanongsak P. from Thailand and Lee Hyun Il, both in straight games; fortunately for Taufik, he had teammates to bail the team out against the former..;)

badadum

04-23-2009, 09:43 PM

..If the younger, somewhat experienced players are not being sent/exposed to team events now, how will they have “the best team possible” in the future? Instead you’ll have a bunch of inexperienced players playing, for the first time in their lifetime, in a high level/world class team event.
And if the juniors will need to make their marks in GP, SS tourneys first, how long do you think it will take?? 2, 4, 6, 8 or 10 more yrs. We've seen some of their accomplishments, so far, haven't we??
Of course, yrs from now, WHEN Taufik (and other veteran players) actually stops playing, the juniors will replace him. But then, what is there to talk about once Taufik & the other veteran players retire??

Chris, if the juniors can't even handle the pressure and perform in GP and SS events....what are the chances they'll perform in high level/world class team event? :confused:
The talented juniors will eventually surpass their senior, its a natural progression that'll happen. Just like Icuk replaces Liem Swie King, Ardy BW/Alan BK/JS/HS replacing Icuk, Hendrawan replacing them and so on....
Heck, even in pelatnas alone Simon have proven to be "lethal" against Taufik. ;)

phaarix

04-23-2009, 09:56 PM

Honestly, mister...
Do you think INA juniors (come to think about it, they're not that 'junior' already) are THAT weak?

I'm possibly not talking about Sony (although he really hasn't been impressive at all lately). Simon and Tommy though would likely not stand a chance. Especially Tommy - just look at how Taufik himself destroyed him. Anyway I have been avoiding calling them INA juniors, because most of them aren't by now. They're not really weak. Just in comparison to who they're inevitably going to have to face if they want a good result.

And do you think TH will give better opposition to a 100% LD? ;)
Heck, I can't even remember when was the last time he beat BCL.:rolleyes:

YES. Are you serious?? Of course he'd give better opposition to them... And AGAIN... GOD... I'm not even talking about Lin Dan!! Or China!! Get it? I'm talking about beating the countries that it will take to make their goal of a finals appearance a reality. I'm not saying the current line up can't do that. I'm just saying they're hurting their chances.

- I've a different take. By suggesting younger players to compete, they’re put in a position of playing w/a “nothing to lose” attitude. But by suggesting to put in the “best players” out there, basically they’re put in a position that “they are to win”, an “everything to lose” approach.

Could you say the same for KBH?

Sure, that’s PBSI’s (as well as other top teams’) goal which is to get to the final. Not mine. I think that’s a pretty lofty goal considering other top baddy teams have been much improved & ready. Realistically, IMO, as I mentioned before, as long as INA can stay in the 1st group, for this yr, that’s already good enough. What the younger players learn and gain from this SC tourney, that they will build upon for their next big team event(s).

There's little point in me arguing against it. But if that's how you feel, that's how you feel :). I'm all for INA's younger players improving as well! I just don't think this is the place. But hey, if it does help them, then I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong! That goal I believe, is more realistic as well.

- I asked that because you brought up the idea that the INA younger players don’t deserve a chance to play in this SC based on their accomplishment.
And since you brought that up, all I’m looking for is what criteria(s) will satisfy your standard for them to deserve a spot in the national team? What would you base it on? If it’s based on how the players have done in comparison to their teammates, do you really think the current INA younger players’ outlook will improve in the future?
(The tourneys i mentioned, i just brought those up as examples; nothing blown out of proportion).

Yes I do think their outlook will improve because we all know Taufik isn't getting any younger. He's already rather less than his prime. Like badadum pointed out. It's only a matter of time (and a year ago it looked like that time may have already come). Anyway, I'm not saying these players shouldn't come along (although in Tommy's case... perhaps). It's just that they're in place of a clearly better choice. You can have your "backup" players. As long as you've got your best players for the big matches.

- Re Gade still playing for Denmark. Problem w/Denmark, in my view, is their lack of (young) talents. That could perhaps be the reason why they’ve been sending Gade & Jonassen and the other veteran MD pairs, for seemingly forever. I don’t really see it that way with INA. IMO, PBSI has more talented young players/pairs playing in the circuit already. It’s time to see them perform in high level team events.

I tend to agree with the whole "Europeans bloom later" thing. But that's probably true right now. Indonesia - I haven't really seen it yet. Maybe they have plenty of young talents. But I don't see any that are ready for this level yet. If they think they are - bring them along as backups - not the main hope.

- They deserve to perform in Thomas & Uber Cup but not in Sudirman Cup?? Why?? Is one tourney more prestigious than the other? As far as I can see, both events require a team to get 3 points in order to win. Everyone is put in a spot to perform.

Because they are not a number 1 for their country, but more likely a number 3 or so. Simple. At number 3 they have a much better chance (repeating myself here).

- So, by not giving them an opportunity to play even if they get wiped out, it will help the players/pairs in the future? By not letting them lose, even in a matter of minutes, it will do much for their confidence? Let’s see how they’ll perform the next time they are being put in a spotlight or pressure type situation.

Plenty of other places for it...

- So, tell me what other team event opportunities out there will the younger players get a chance to perform in?? Club based team events vs. world class based team events? If it’s not about gaining, then please explain what will the veteran players gain by being sent numerous times?

Yes.

It's not about personal gain. It's a team event. THE world class mixed team event. The result of everything the veteran players have worked for. This is about putting everything you've learnt to use. It's about the result.

- What makes you think the younger players will not do or give the best they possibly can to win? Of course, there is a point in going. But you have to look at it realistically, at least I am. Frankly, do you see INA winning the SC this yr? For this yr, the point of them going is to give their younger, somewhat experienced players a chance to perform and get a taste of playing in the Sudirman Cup.

I'm starting to feel that if I reply I'll just be saying the same old things all over again.

This is how it is -

You don't have a problem with it.
I don't really have a problem with it :p.

You agree with the decision.
I think it's a bit silly.

..If the younger, somewhat experienced players are not being sent/exposed to team events now, how will they have “the best team possible” in the future? Instead you’ll have a bunch of inexperienced players playing, for the first time in their lifetime, in a high level/world class team event.

Remember Taufik's first Thomas Cup (to be honest, I don't... I believe it was 2000? I was 11 back then...)? Correct me if I'm wrong.

And if the juniors will need to make their marks in GP, SS tourneys first, how long do you think it will take?? 2, 4, 6, 8 or 10 more yrs. We've seen some of their accomplishments, so far, haven't we??
Of course, yrs from now, WHEN Taufik (and other veteran players) actually stops playing, the juniors will replace him. But then, what is there to talk about once Taufik & the other veteran players retire??

Just stay in the top 3 in the country. Again, they can go along as backup players, as long as they're not the main hope of the team. They still get "experience". But they don't ruin the team's chances.

..speaking of last yr's TC, all i remember is Taufik losing to Tanongsak P. from Thailand and Lee Hyun Il, both in straight games; fortunately for Taufik, he had teammates to bail the team out against the former..;)

And at that point it was silly of anyone to pin their hopes on Taufik. He'd had awful results and clearly wasn't anywhere near his best.

ctjcad

04-24-2009, 01:33 AM

Chris, if the juniors can't even handle the pressure and perform in GP and SS events....what are the chances they'll perform in high level/world class team event? :confused:
The talented juniors will eventually surpass their senior, its a natural progression that'll happen. Just like Icuk replaces Liem Swie King, Ardy BW/Alan BK/JS/HS replacing Icuk, Hendrawan replacing them and so on....
Heck, even in pelatnas alone Simon have proven to be "lethal" against Taufik. ;)
..so, in other words, looking at the younger players' results and performance, we won't be seeing them for the next 2, 4 and maybe 6 more yrs. in any high level team events??
Personally, i don't see any young INA players coming up on the horizon who'll take the place of Taufik. Simon? Tommy? Andre? any doubles pair?
Even if the younger players replace the current veteran players, down the line, i don't see any of them making any real dent in international badminton.
And further, if Taufik keeps playing for the next 3-4 yrs, i have no doubt he'll still remain INA's #1 player, despite him getting older etc.
That's why, throughout my postings, i've been behind the idea of pushing and putting those younger players to compete in the high level team events, despite their results and performance. Because if they continue with their same results, which i think most likely they will, how are they going to make the Sudirman, Thomas or Uber Cup team??
Simon is "lethal" vs. Taufik??..you gotta be kidding me..:eek:
...
There's little point in me arguing against it. But if that's how you feel, that's how you feel :). I'm all for INA's younger players improving as well! I just don't think this is the place. But hey, if it does help them, then I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong! That goal I believe, is more realistic as well.

Yes I do think their outlook will improve because we all know Taufik isn't getting any younger. He's already rather less than his prime. Like badadum pointed out. It's only a matter of time (and a year ago it looked like that time may have already come). Anyway, I'm not saying these players shouldn't come along (although in Tommy's case... perhaps). It's just that they're in place of a clearly better choice. You can have your "backup" players. As long as you've got your best players for the big matches.

I tend to agree with the whole "Europeans bloom later" thing. But that's probably true right now. Indonesia - I haven't really seen it yet. Maybe they have plenty of young talents. But I don't see any that are ready for this level yet. If they think they are - bring them along as backups - not the main hope.

It's not about personal gain. It's a team event. THE world class mixed team event. The result of everything the veteran players have worked for. This is about putting everything you've learnt to use. It's about the result.
...
Remember Taufik's first Thomas Cup (to be honest, I don't... I believe it was 2000? I was 11 back then...)? Correct me if I'm wrong.
...

- Trust me, having a youngster be exposed to high level competition will help him/her, whether they win or lose. Either s/he'll pick up the challenge and continue improving or let the result affect them in a negative way.

- Personally, i don't think we'll see any INA player of the caliber of Taufik in the next 4-5 yrs or even longer. So-so in the doubles dept. Like i mentioned above, the younger players just can't cut it. Just look at their results and i mean they've been exposed to high level international tourneys. When Taufik was their age, he was one of the most eyed players in the game. The most, i think the current younger INA players can be leveled to is probably Sony.

- Yes, i understand you and others haven't seen enough INA younger talents in action. But they are out there. If need proof, just follow and check the tournament threads in BC filled with INA members posting (Krisna, Hau-ge, badMania, Sandy and others).;)
INA badminton is in somewhat of a "dead period" now, with the lack of any young major talent. That's why we need to bring up and expose the youngsters to as many tourneys as possible (be it individual or team; big or small). The more they are exposed, the better it'll be in, hopefully, bringing a sound regeneration process. Playing the same old, same old players will bring nothing much, other than a temporary feeling of accomplishment.

- It is a team event but there is some personal gain, esp. for the younger players. The gain/benefit is definitely experience. Even with whatever result the veteran players achieve, what will they gain?? Like i mentioned earlier, even if they go as far as to the Finals round again and for some miracle they win it, what benefit will they get other than holding up the trophy? If the younger players come along but don't get a chance to compete, what will they gain? What benefit will they get? Even worse, if the younger players don't get sent, what and how will they learn/gain something?

- What about Taufik's first Thomas Cup??..Taufik made the team most likely because, besides his talent, of his achievement of reaching the AE Final (the previous yr).

ye333

04-24-2009, 08:50 AM

You have to admit that TH has "bounced back" from his 2008 level... :cool:

..speaking of last yr's TC, all i remember is Taufik losing to Tanongsak P. from Thailand and Lee Hyun Il, both in straight games; fortunately for Taufik, he had teammates to bail the team out against the former..;)

badadum

04-24-2009, 01:27 PM

ye333

04-24-2009, 04:50 PM

In 2008 I predicted that Simon will become a top player in 2009... Disappointed so far:(

I think the basic premise remains this. If the junior players hasn't perform in GP and SS tourney, how exactly are they going to start performing in the SC, TC, UC, OG level??? I seriously doubt just throwing them in there would do any good.... :cool:

I'm not worry about INA's future in doubles, there's Wifqi/Alfiat and Tantowi/Richi there, and the INA contingents here has been gushing about Jenna Gozali for awhile. Not to mention Bona/Ahsan is still in their early 20s and pairing a still young Butet with another good male double player will more than likely resulted in a formidable XD pair as well.
The men singles...well....a bit different story there....but isn't that the same with most country? I don't see china producing the next LD..(maybe CJ/BCL level but that's it), and MAS rising stars is still very young (Zulkifli is only 16yo). Maybe in 3-4 years, the like of Dion, Gepeng and even Tommy can match up well with other countries star singles.
No comment on WS. ;)

Simon H2H vs Taufik is even IIRC (3-3 or something like that) and in Pelatnas/Kejurnas/Team matches, Simon is one of those player that forces TH to go to the distance, or even beat him.:p

phaarix

04-24-2009, 09:29 PM

..so, in other words, looking at the younger players' results and performance, we won't be seeing them for the next 2, 4 and maybe 6 more yrs. in any high level team events??
Personally, i don't see any young INA players coming up on the horizon who'll take the place of Taufik. Simon? Tommy? Andre? any doubles pair?
Even if the younger players replace the current veteran players, down the line, i don't see any of them making any real dent in international badminton.

Yeah well that's exactly what I'm getting at... There really hasn't been any real star talent coming through recently. If this is experience for next time... do you really think they're even going to have a shot at it next time...? Seeing as you're saying it's all about winning. If these players are here for experience this time... and likely the next time as well... they'll be past their prime before you know it anyway.

If Indonesia is still waiting for talented junior players to come through, then what's the use in giving too much attention to players who are likely never going to make it anyway? Just wait till they mature... and make the most of the true talent while it lasts (veterans). Because they won't be around forever.

- Yes, i understand you and others haven't seen enough INA younger talents in action. But they are out there. If need proof, just follow and check the tournament threads in BC filled with INA members posting (Krisna, Hau-ge, badMania, Sandy and others).;)
INA badminton is in somewhat of a "dead period" now, with the lack of any young major talent. That's why we need to bring up and expose the youngsters to as many tourneys as possible (be it individual or team; big or small). The more they are exposed, the better it'll be in, hopefully, bringing a sound regeneration process. Playing the same old, same old players will bring nothing much, other than a temporary feeling of accomplishment.

I'm sure there are younger talents (and I really hope there are!). But it's this particular generation of "younger" players that I don't see much hope for. That's why I don't see much point in grooming them too much.

- It is a team event but there is some personal gain, esp. for the younger players. The gain/benefit is definitely experience. Even with whatever result the veteran players achieve, what will they gain?? Like i mentioned earlier, even if they go as far as to the Finals round again and for some miracle they win it, what benefit will they get other than holding up the trophy? If the younger players come along but don't get a chance to compete, what will they gain? What benefit will they get? Even worse, if the younger players don't get sent, what and how will they learn/gain something?

Well, like I said - to me, the whole point of a high level competition is ... well ... competition. It's the result of what everyone has worked for. It's not working up to something bigger (because there is nothing bigger).

We just see this differently.

- What about Taufik's first Thomas Cup??..Taufik made the team most likely because, besides his talent, of his achievement of reaching the AE Final (the previous yr).

He earned a spot on the team - so he made the team. He also performed well without any previous experience at the tournament.

ctjcad

04-25-2009, 03:36 AM

You have to admit that TH has "bounced back" from his 2008 level... :cool:
..hmm, it may seem that way, but personally, i don't think it has changed much. At most it has stayed the same (last yr, Taufik only won 1 title w/several QF finishes & 1 SF finish; this yr, 1 title so far also w/a QF finish & 1 SF finish). And yes, still missing his SS title.
I think the basic premise remains this. If the junior players hasn't perform in GP and SS tourney, how exactly are they going to start performing in the SC, TC, UC, OG level??? I seriously doubt just throwing them in there would do any good.... :cool:

I'm not worry about INA's future in doubles, there's Wifqi/Alfiat and Tantowi/Richi there, and the INA contingents here has been gushing about Jenna Gozali for awhile. Not to mention Bona/Ahsan is still in their early 20s and pairing a still young Butet with another good male double player will more than likely resulted in a formidable XD pair as well.
The men singles...well....a bit different story there....but isn't that the same with most country? I don't see china producing the next LD..(maybe CJ/BCL level but that's it), and MAS rising stars is still very young (Zulkifli is only 16yo). Maybe in 3-4 years, the like of Dion, Gepeng and even Tommy can match up well with other countries star singles.
No comment on WS. ;)

Simon H2H vs Taufik is even IIRC (3-3 or something like that) and in Pelatnas/Kejurnas/Team matches, Simon is one of those player that forces TH to go to the distance, or even beat him.:p
- Like i mentioned before, basically what you're implying is taking into consideration the younger players' results so far, they don't belong in the team events squad. Am i correct?
Now, as i asked before, do you think any of them will improve or changed much in the future? Personally, i don't think so. And if that's the case, that means they won't belong in the team events squads.
What do you mean "If throwing the younger players in tough team competitions won't do them any good"? What makes you think throwing the veteran players, AGAIN, will do the INA squad any good? What kind of gain or benefit will they get? What's the difference anyway in finishing #2 to #4?? I'm still waiting for any explanation.
Do you really think they will realistically bring back the trophy, this time around, even with the veteran players involved? If need proof, check out the last 2 SC results.

- As for the players mentioned, again, i'm taking the opinion that they will be hard pressed to give the same results as the current veterans or just retired veterans. They're just names with not much success, if any consistency at all.

- Do you really take Simon's H2H record vs. Taufik seriously?? Even taking into consideration his record vs. Taufik during Pelatnas training?:confused::eek:
If you want to consider a young player to keep an eye on, try Andre KT.
Yeah well that's exactly what I'm getting at... There really hasn't been any real star talent coming through recently. If this is experience for next time... do you really think they're even going to have a shot at it next time...? Seeing as you're saying it's all about winning. If these players are here for experience this time... and likely the next time as well... they'll be past their prime before you know it anyway.

If Indonesia is still waiting for talented junior players to come through, then what's the use in giving too much attention to players who are likely never going to make it anyway? Just wait till they mature... and make the most of the true talent while it lasts (veterans). Because they won't be around forever.

I'm sure there are younger talents (and I really hope there are!). But it's this particular generation of "younger" players that I don't see much hope for. That's why I don't see much point in grooming them too much.

Well, like I said - to me, the whole point of a high level competition is ... well ... competition. It's the result of what everyone has worked for. It's not working up to something bigger (because there is nothing bigger).

He earned a spot on the team - so he made the team. He also performed well without any previous experience at the tournament.
- IMO, giving someone who is young & hasn't played a high level team event will only generate experience. Whether they will have another shot at it the next time, that i don't know & won't worry about (could be because of many reasons). At the very least, s/he has been given a chance.
I never mentioned "it's all about winning" (if i did, mind pointing me to where i mentioned that).

- I'm not saying PBSI should give "too much attention" to the younger players who are likely never going to make much dent in the international scene. All i'm saying is, since they're already there & have already had some experiences in international high level play, yet haven't tasted a team event like the SC, then why not give them a chance to prove what they're worth. There's nothing to lose.
Again, like i mentioned, i don't see any talented younger and junior players who will make much significant contribution in the next 4-5 yrs. If that's the case, would you want PBSI to keep on playing Taufik and other veterans in team events in the next 4-5 yrs?

- There are younger talents in INA Pelatnas. But, IMO, like i mentioned before, they won't make much significant dent like their predecessors. Both this particular generation of younger players and the juniors. If there is/are, i'd by quite surprised. Doubles maybe, but that's about it.
Why do i feel that way? I just look at their tournaments' results.

- What i meant by "bigger" is the "bigger/overall picture" of the squads' present and future. My thinking is almost like, would you sacrifice the now for the future? Would you take a back seat and let the young players struggle & even taste defeat and gain experience for the future?

- That's why he's Taufik. He probably could've made the Thomas Cup when he first joined Pelatnas, if they wanted to. But reality is, not others; thus PBSI has to give them as much chance as possible.

phaarix

04-25-2009, 06:02 AM

..hmm, it may seem that way, but personally, i don't think it has changed much. At most it has stayed the same (last yr, Taufik only won 1 title w/several QF finishes & 1 SF finish; this yr, 1 title so far also w/a QF finish & 1 SF finish). And yes, still missing his SS title.

No that is all the same period (late last year up to now). We're talking about before that. Since around Macau he's had fairly consistently good results. Now look at what he was achieving previous to that... basically nothing. Early round exits all over the place. Compared to then he's undoubtedly playing better.

I never mentioned "it's all about winning" (if i did, mind pointing me to where i mentioned that).

You didn't specifically say that (that I recall). I just gathered this from the way you always mention their chances against *China* in particular. And the way you're saying that since they don't have a realistic chance against *China*, they should just forget about going for a good result and use it as experience.

badadum

04-25-2009, 02:57 PM

In 2008 I predicted that Simon will become a top player in 2009... Disappointed so far:(

Simon lack that kill attack, but in the same time he also doesn't have that trickery game like his mentor (Hendrawan).... :o

What do you mean "If throwing the younger players in tough team competitions won't do them any good"? What makes you think throwing the veteran players, AGAIN, will do the INA squad any good? What kind of gain or benefit will they get? What's the difference anyway in finishing #2 to #4?? I'm still waiting for any explanation.
Do you really think they will realistically bring back the trophy, this time around, even with the veteran players involved? If need proof, check out the last 2 SC results.

I already stated before, INA needs to send their best lineup, which at this time, would still need to include the veterans. It's not INA chances is exactly at 0%. Why lessen your already slim chances even more by putting juniors players???? That's been my point all along.
PBSI goal is to reach the final again...well, their chances to do that is better with the veteran players than the juniors...again, why shoot yourself on the foot?
If there's no difference in finishing in #2 or not even making it out of the group preliminary (finishing #8), why would the rest of the countries other than china, send their best lineup???? In paper, china should dominate TC, UC, SC.... why bother to send any quality team anyway, since china is the overwhelming favorites? :confused:

As for the players mentioned, again, i'm taking the opinion that they will be hard pressed to give the same results as the current veterans or just retired veterans. They're just names with not much success, if any consistency at all.

Well considering that most of them are not even 20yrs old....of course you won't hear much about them. They did win several Junior titles already and don't be surprised if you hear them much more often in the future :p

If you want to consider a young player to keep an eye on, try Andre KT

Andre is decent but his game hasn't improved much...still pretty raw. Tommy has better game than him and will beat Andre more often than not IMO, but for some reason, Andre still has better result in various tourneys.

george@chongwei

04-26-2009, 12:14 AM

simon's game can be improve. he shows that during his quarter final match against chong wei in the mo09;)
was in the stadium and he nearly upset chong wei;)

ctjcad

04-26-2009, 01:17 AM

No that is all the same period (late last year up to now). We're talking about before that. Since around Macau he's had fairly consistently good results. Now look at what he was achieving previous to that... basically nothing. Early round exits all over the place. Compared to then he's undoubtedly playing better.

You didn't specifically say that (that I recall). I just gathered this from the way you always mention their chances against *China* in particular. And the way you're saying that since they don't have a realistic chance against *China*, they should just forget about going for a good result and use it as experience.
- Taufik's record in this yr's first 4 months is slightly better than last yr's first 4 months, i'll credit that. Taufik did start his competition in January last yr, unlike this yr where he only started in March. However, this yr is not over and Taufik might not win another title the rest of the way. Thus leaving the same exact track as last yr's.

- I made the reference to their matches vs. China in the last 2 SC Finals because a point about "the need for competition" had been brought up and why the need to bring and use the same old veterans as before, AGAIN, for this yr's INA SC squad. I responded by mentioning, as i repeat once again, the veterans had already tried their chances twice and came out with the same result, failed to bring the SC back while being white-washed 3-0.
Thus expecting the INA SC squad to win it this time around with the same old veteran players will not only prove the plan will fail, it'll also prove that it won't be the wisest move on PBSI's part.
This time around is to give the younger, somewhat experienced players their chance to perform.
...
I already stated before, INA needs to send their best lineup, which at this time, would still need to include the veterans. It's not INA chances is exactly at 0%. Why lessen your already slim chances even more by putting juniors players???? That's been my point all along.
PBSI goal is to reach the final again...well, their chances to do that is better with the veteran players than the juniors...again, why shoot yourself on the foot?
If there's no difference in finishing in #2 or not even making it out of the group preliminary (finishing #8), why would the rest of the countries other than china, send their best lineup???? In paper, china should dominate TC, UC, SC.... why bother to send any quality team anyway, since china is the overwhelming favorites? :confused:

Well considering that most of them are not even 20yrs old....of course you won't hear much about them. They did win several Junior titles already and don't be surprised if you hear them much more often in the future :p

Andre is decent but his game hasn't improved much...still pretty raw. Tommy has better game than him and will beat Andre more often than not IMO, but for some reason, Andre still has better result in various tourneys.
- The point is not about "lessening the already slim chances" or "why shoot yourself on the foot?" The reality is what chances does the INA squad really have?
If INA's chances to win the SC is not exactly at 0%, then mind giving what percentage do they have?
If you think INA's chances is less than 50% (there goes your
favorite percentage saying), then IMO, INA should just send and expose the younger, but somewhat experienced players.

Why would INA follow other countries who are sending their same old, best players, AGAIN? One has to really ask oneself, does INA have any future, younger players?? If so, where are they and why aren't they being exposed to higher level team event(s), despite their struggles in their tourneys' results.
The younger, somewhat experienced players & to an extent the juniors are INA's future. NOT the current or the just retired veteran players.
They've got nothing more to gain and won't benefit the younger players if they're being asked, AGAIN, to perform & try to bring back the SC trophy.
Btw, i still haven't seen any explanation on why sending and playing the same old veterans, AGAIN, and most likely fail to bring the SC back, will benefit them? And will gain something for the youngsters who will just sit & watch?

A bit off topic:
- The way i see it, if those juniors, under 20 yrs old players can't even sniff anything close to what Taufik or what their great predecessors did when he or they was/were their age, i really doubt they'll make much dent in the international baddy circuit in the future. I don't really take the Junior titles much.
That's just me and i'm just holding out as much reservation as i can on the INA younger & junior players.

- I only look at results to figure out the conclusion on younger players. Not hunches or assumptions or hype. And so far, Andre has pretty much won me over Tommy.
If Tommy does really have a better game than Andre, shouldn't his results speak for themselves? So far, he's only won the Jakarta Satellite & Smiling Fish Asian Satellite. Andre has won Dutch Open GP, New Zealand Open, INA Challenge, Open Volant dOr de Toulouse, Brazil Open.

As for Simon, nah, i think he's reach his max. potential. Forget about his lack of power/kill attack or trickery. The dude has only won 2 titles in his nearly 7 yrs of existence in Pelatnas; the biggest one last yr, Chinese Taipei GP Gold after finishing as a runner-up in 2 prior tourneys.

phaarix

04-26-2009, 02:22 AM

- Taufik's record in this yr's first 4 months is slightly better than last yr's first 4 months, i'll credit that. Taufik did start his competition in January last yr, unlike this yr where he only started in March. However, this yr is not over and Taufik might not win another title the rest of the way. Thus leaving the same exact track as last yr's.

But i still think it's safer to base it on recent form rather than what *might* happen in the future :).

- I made the reference to their matches vs. China in the last 2 SC Finals because a point about "the need for competition" had been brought up and why the need to bring and use the same old veterans as before, AGAIN, for this yr's INA SC squad. I responded by mentioning, as i repeat once again, the veterans had already tried their chances twice and came out with the same result, failed to bring the SC back while being white-washed 3-0.
Thus expecting the INA SC squad to win it this time around with the same old veteran players will not only prove the plan will fail, it'll also prove that it won't be the wisest move on PBSI's part.
This time around is to give the younger, somewhat experienced players their chance to perform.

Well Simon and Sony are kind of "same old" as well by now. And I don't see Tommy being the hero that brings home the Sudirman Cup in future years, or any of his generation.

indra

04-26-2009, 09:05 PM

The current INA team is stronger than the previous one. I am optimistic INA will win

limsy

04-26-2009, 09:53 PM

The current INA team is stronger than the previous one. I am optimistic INA will win

will win what? against china?or sudirman cup?:confused:

ctjcad

04-27-2009, 02:31 AM

But i still think it's safer to base it on recent form rather than what *might* happen in the future :).

Well Simon and Sony are kind of "same old" as well by now. And I don't see Tommy being the hero that brings home the Sudirman Cup in future years, or any of his generation.
- About Taufik's seemingly improvement, so far, i personally would hold off on that idea.

- Simon & Sony are indeed "old" or the "veterans". As for Tommy, i think it's safe to say that he's no Icuk Sugiarto.;)
The current INA team is stronger than the previous one. I am optimistic INA will win
..hmm, i don't know if the current INA SC team is stronger or they will win the SC, but i know they are better off playing, dealing and exposing the younger, and not much-experienced-in-team-events players they are going with. If those younger players learn & gain something from this SC, even if they get their behind whipped, i think it would serve them good in the future.

Jagdpanther

04-27-2009, 02:46 AM

- The way i see it, if those juniors, under 20 yrs old players can't even sniff anything close to what Taufik or what their great predecessors did when he or they was/were their age, i really doubt they'll make much dent in the international baddy circuit in the future. I don't really take the Junior titles much.
That's just me and i'm just holding out as much reservation as i can on the INA younger & junior players.

Do you think, mister, Indonesia is the only baddie country facing the scarcity of high quality juniors/2nd stringers?

ctjcad

04-27-2009, 02:55 AM

..the way i see it, only CHN is the only country which, so far, has consistently put out high quality players/pairs.
And the point of your question in reference to my post??..My post only specifically focused on INA badminton..

Jagdpanther

04-27-2009, 03:18 AM

phaarix

04-27-2009, 06:27 AM

- About Taufik's seemingly improvement, so far, i personally would hold off on that idea.

- Simon & Sony are indeed "old" or the "veterans". As for Tommy, i think it's safe to say that he's no Icuk Sugiarto.;)

About Taufik, I don't really just base it on his results, but also his attitude on court. He said it himself in his blog that he's enjoying his time on court a lot more these days. A good attitude towards the game never hurts! And I think his results just prove it.

Honestly, when I heard Taufik and the others weren't going to be playing, I wasn't all that surprised, or bothered. If it's ok with them, I really don't have anything to complain about do I :)? And Vita said she absolutely wouldn't play anyway or something didn't she?

I hope you're right about the younger generation. I hope it serves them well!

maa2003

04-27-2009, 08:50 AM

in 1989, there were no star in Indonesia team, but they can win Sudirman Cup.

the team in 1993 was the stronger ever Indonesia have, but still can not win the Sudirman.

For Sudirman Cup, it is more depended on strategy, you can see at the Sudirman Cup 2007.

this year will be the weakest team ever Indonesia have ....

-----
when Sudirman was in Indonesia, Thomas and Uber were in China, later on when Thomas and Uber were in Indonesia (1994 - 1996), Sudirman left his home and looks like did not want to come-back anymore.
Sudirman feels that sitting side-by-side with Thomas and Uber to see the beautiful of China people is better than return to his home.
So Sudirman then said : Thomas and Uber, let's LANJUTKAN our togetherness here in China .... China people is here so nice to me, they have kept me here for a long time ....

badadum

04-27-2009, 09:47 AM

- The point is not about "lessening the already slim chances" or "why shoot yourself on the foot?" The reality is what chances does the INA squad really have?
If INA's chances to win the SC is not exactly at 0%, then mind giving what percentage do they have?
If you think INA's chances is less than 50% (there goes your
favorite percentage saying), then IMO, INA should just send and expose the younger, but somewhat experienced players.

Oh boy, here we go again with the percentages.....I say INA chances to win the SC is at 30%. :p
Less than 50% of course (heck the only country that can boast better than 50% will be china), but most definitely nowhere near 0%!
Now.....just because one countries chances to win is less than 50%, you're saying its better to send junior players with even less chances of winning? What's that if not "lessening your chances" and "shooting yourself on the foot"??? Isn't the goal of all team is to win it??

Why would INA follow other countries who are sending their same old, best players, AGAIN? One has to really ask oneself, does INA have any future, younger players?? If so, where are they and why aren't they being exposed to higher level team event(s), despite their struggles in their tourneys' results.
The younger, somewhat experienced players & to an extent the juniors are INA's future. NOT the current or the just retired veteran players.
They've got nothing more to gain and won't benefit the younger players if they're being asked, AGAIN, to perform & try to bring back the SC trophy.
Btw, i still haven't seen any explanation on why sending and playing the same old veterans, AGAIN, and most likely fail to bring the SC back, will benefit them? And will gain something for the youngsters who will just sit & watch?

I think we're just running in circles here...... suffice to say we agree to disagree...

A bit off topic:
- The way i see it, if those juniors, under 20 yrs old players can't even sniff anything close to what Taufik or what their great predecessors did when he or they was/were their age, i really doubt they'll make much dent in the international baddy circuit in the future. I don't really take the Junior titles much.
That's just me and i'm just holding out as much reservation as i can on the INA younger & junior players.

- I only look at results to figure out the conclusion on younger players. Not hunches or assumptions or hype. And so far, Andre has pretty much won me over Tommy.
If Tommy does really have a better game than Andre, shouldn't his results speak for themselves? So far, he's only won the Jakarta Satellite & Smiling Fish Asian Satellite. Andre has won Dutch Open GP, New Zealand Open, INA Challenge, Open Volant dOr de Toulouse, Brazil Open.

Don't forget Tommy is 2 years younger than Andre. Andre also benefits from the massive support know as PB Djarum....while Tommy pretty much "orphaned" in Pelatnas, thanks to Dad.
Just like you look at results, I look at their game.....and I think Tommy has more upside than Andre (as said before, Tommy can beat Andre 3 out of 5 meet)....as long as he can work that crucial 3rd set problem.

Good point by JagdPanther though.... MK/HS is nowhere near the top INA MD 4-5 years ago, yet now they're one of the best in the world.

badMania

04-27-2009, 11:12 AM

Well, I believe most of the ppl here had doubts on Kido/Hendra even after they won the World Championships in 2007 :o They were only convinced after the INA pair won the Beijing Olympics Gold.

ctjcad

04-27-2009, 03:49 PM

If I can generalize it to analyze other countries' juniors. Never mind.;)

But somehow, I can't recall the Olympic champ, MK/HS making big bang in baddie world when they're in their teens? Or say, Maria? :confused:
- Well, IMO, INA doubles dept., esp. the MD, has never really lost its footing. They are after all, one of, if not the most dominant & consistent doubles specialists in the world.

- True, Markis and whoever was his partner never won any big titles nor made "big bangs" when they were teens. However, it's not really a surprise. As a matter of fact, if one is to do a bit of research, one will find that most of the INA's doubles greats (Christian H., Tony G., Candra W., Sigit B., to name a few) didn't get a taste of their first major or non-major title(s) til they were in their early twenties. Roughly the same age as Markis & Hendra when they won their first major title. Markis and whoever his partner was (Hendra) won the Asian Champ and Indonesia Open when they were 21. Heck, he & his partner were the runner-ups in the Denmark Open when he was 20.;)

- Maria? What about her? What major, or even Open type, tourneys has she won other than finishing as a Semifinalist in last yr's OG? All of her titles have been Satellite type tourneys.
About Taufik, I don't really just base it on his results, but also his attitude on court. He said it himself in his blog that he's enjoying his time on court a lot more these days. A good attitude towards the game never hurts! And I think his results just prove it.

Honestly, when I heard Taufik and the others weren't going to be playing, I wasn't all that surprised, or bothered. If it's ok with them, I really don't have anything to complain about do I :)? And Vita said she absolutely wouldn't play anyway or something didn't she?
...
Off topic:
- Personally, I take what Taufik say or mentioned with a grain of salt. Remember, he kinda said/mentioned the same thing before, during his 2006-2008 big tourney appearances, yet look at what happened.
I'm only concerned about result. If his current "attitude on court" has changed etc., like he said, well, let's see 'em titles, esp. SS titles, rack up by the boatload.;)
Oh boy, here we go again with the percentages.....I say INA chances to win the SC is at 30%. :p
Less than 50% of course (heck the only country that can boast better than 50% will be china), but most definitely nowhere near 0%!
Now.....just because one countries chances to win is less than 50%, you're saying its better to send junior players with even less chances of winning? What's that if not "lessening your chances" and "shooting yourself on the foot"??? Isn't the goal of all team is to win it??

I think we're just running in circles here...... suffice to say we agree to disagree...

Don't forget Tommy is 2 years younger than Andre. Andre also benefits from the massive support know as PB Djarum....while Tommy pretty much "orphaned" in Pelatnas, thanks to Dad.
Just like you look at results, I look at their game.....and I think Tommy has more upside than Andre (as said before, Tommy can beat Andre 3 out of 5 meet)....as long as he can work that crucial 3rd set problem.
...
- Of course, the goal for every team is to win. But, again, let's look at it realistically. In this case, INA's chances.
If the percentage of winning it all is say @ 30% (less than 50%), w/veteran players or not, like you put it, then why don't PBSI give the younger, with some experience players a chance to perform. Rather than the same old, same old players? The younger, more experienced players have got nothing to lose & they'll gain something from being put in this type of high level team competition.

- It's fine if we agree to disagree. But i'm still looking for an explanation on why sending & playing veteran players instead of younger, somewhat experienced players will benefit the players, esp. the veteran players?
What will the veteran players gain if they're the ones being asked to play & perform? What will the younger, somewhat more experienced players gain by not given a chance to play?

- I don't really care much whether Tommy is 2 or 3 or 4 yrs younger than Andre. I haven't really seen much of Andre's nor Tommy's game, but if Tommy or his game does have more upside than Andre, then his results would speak for themselves, wouldn't they?
Again, as i mentioned earlier, i'm making as much reservation on them as i can.:cool:

phaarix

04-28-2009, 08:59 AM

Off topic:
- Personally, I take what Taufik say or mentioned with a grain of salt. Remember, he kinda said/mentioned the same thing before, during his 2006-2008 big tourney appearances, yet look at what happened.
I'm only concerned about result. If his current "attitude on court" has changed etc., like he said, well, let's see 'em titles, esp. SS titles, rack up by the boatload.;)

Well it's your call. I thought he seemed more relaxed before he mentioned it himself... We have seen results though :confused:. I don't see why it has to be winning. If you can look past that, it's clear as day he's improved...

BUT he still has terrible games every now and then. At least now, it's not nearly EVERY game ;)... like awhile ago.

Bang_Jo

04-29-2009, 02:32 AM

Indonesian squad for this year's Sudirman Cup is the weakest I've seen in years.Fortunately (or,unfortunately) Indonesia become 2nd seed,thanks to high rank points from veteran players who even aren't in the squad.

I'm really happy Indonesia is in the Group 1B,cause Group 1A is more tough with Malaysia,Denmark and Korea would kill each other.As long as Indonesia doesn't make big mistake,they will pass England & Japan,so they will through the SF.
After that,just hope with lucky,if they can make it to the final again.

ssertere

04-29-2009, 11:00 PM

ssertere

04-29-2009, 11:08 PM

I read it on today's KOMPAS:
http://cetak.kompas.com/read/xml/2009/04/30/04075232/pengalaman..beregu.untuk.pemain.baru

Indonesia' Sudirman team' match simulation.
Anyone has the complete match report?

Red Team 3 - 2 White Team
Lindaweni Fanetri 0 - 1 Adrianti Firdasari
Sony Dwi Kuncoro 0 - 2 Simon Santoso
Nitya Krishinda/Greysia Polii 1 - 2 Shendy Puspa/Meiliana Jauhari
Nova Widianto/Liliyana Natsir 2 - 2 Devin Lahardi/Lita Nurlita
Mohammad Ahsan/Bona Septano 1 - 0 Rian Sukmawan/Yonathan Suryatma.

abesadi

04-30-2009, 12:40 AM

Lindaweni lost to Firdasari 17-21, 19-21
Sony lost to Simon 17-21, 12-21
Nitya/Grace win to Shendy/Mel 21-12, 21-6
Nova/Lily win to Lita/Devin 21-13, 14-21, 21-19
Bona/Ahsan win to Rian/Yoke 20-22, 24-22, 21-19

ssertere

04-30-2009, 02:45 AM

Where do u get the results?

The news said that they held the simulation on friday last week and wednesday this week. Why there is only 1 team result?

abesadi

04-30-2009, 02:59 AM

I read in local newspaper (jawa pos)
Its a yesterday result and i dont know about the result on friday..

Maria kristin didnt join the simulation because she must take care her condition after injury. Markis/Hendra didnt join because they play a exibition match againts candra/sigit in candrawijaya cup and they lost to candra/sigit 34-36

CLELY

04-30-2009, 03:22 AM

Beside simulation match, INA squad also did outbound training last weekend to raise team-work spirit.

Loh

04-30-2009, 03:51 AM

Its seems INA's chance of doing well is further diminished by being in the same group as CHN since many here believe that INA's team is perhaps the weakest in recent history.

And LYB is on record as saying they are taking their opponents very seriously as well, whoever they are. :eek:

samuel882

04-30-2009, 08:15 AM

It seems that INA team officials able to predict the draw:D:D
They are very lucky indeed not to be placing in the "Group of Death" :)

andalusia

04-30-2009, 08:36 AM

hope Indonesia team reach at least semifinal. it will be big surprise if they can manage to final

hiltonmoreira9

04-30-2009, 10:59 AM

well I don't want to care too much about Indonesia's chance in 2009SC.. Because yeah I guess Indonesia will win only by luck.

men's singles: sony? I don't think so. Simon? poor performances. Tommy? Too young.
women's singles: Maria Kristin? no hope except she had 'something' to boost her spirit. Adrianti Firdasari? not so good track records in Sudirman Cup experiences. Lindaweni? See you on the bench!
mixed doubles: Lilyana/Nova? inconsistence performance. Devin/Lita? benchwarmers
men's doubles: kido/hendra? pray to God that Kido is injury-free at d-day.. pray hard..
bona/ahsan? God please bless them so they can perform on their maximum potential. Rian/Yoke? holla benchwarmers!
women's doubles: shendy/meiliana or nitya/greys: both, no hope.. except mix them with lilyana or vita.

oh God, there's no hope for Indonesia :(
but a great accomplishment for PBSI, only pelatnas players chosen for the team.

ctjcad

05-01-2009, 03:18 AM

INA's squad for Sudirman Cup 2009

MS : Sony Dwi Kuncoro, Simon Santoso, Tommy Sugiarto
WS : Maria Kristin, Adriyanti Firdasari
MD : Markis Kido/Hendra Setiawan, Bona Septano/Muhammad Ahsan, Rian Sukmawan/Yonatan Suryatama
WD : Shendy Puspa Irawati/Meliana Jauhari, Greysia Polii/Nitya Krishinda
XD : Nova Widianto/Liliyana Natsir, Devin Lahardi/Lita Nurlita and Fran Kurniawan
..IMO, they should do without Sony, Nova and possibly Devin.
They could've filled those with players like Andre K.T. (eventhough he's with Djarum), Lindanewi and another player.
Anyway, those 3 veteran players should be shelved for the next edition of TC or SC..
Its seems INA's chance of doing well is further diminished by being in the same group as CHN since many here believe that INA's team is perhaps the weakest in recent history.
...
..INA will be in the same group with CHN, ENG & JPN. So, IMO, the likelihood for them to advance to the Semifinals round is pretty good, although it could be a tough one. It'll be a good experience for them youngsters..:cool:

Jagdpanther

05-01-2009, 05:17 AM

..IMO, they should do without Sony, Nova and possibly Devin.
They could've filled those with players like Andre K.T. (eventhough he's with Djarum), Lindanewi and another player.

She's included in the team as well. ;)
And...it's Lindaweni.

abedeng

05-03-2009, 05:15 AM

There is this thing called, Team Spirit. Our Malaysian Thomas Cup team of the mid-80s to mid-90s epitomized that in spades.

On paper, we were far behind the top guns of China, Indonesia, and probably on par only with Denmark and Korea. But we got to 4 straight finals from 88 to 94 (semifinals in 86) and won the 1992 edition. Had our more talented 2006 and 2008 squad had the same spirit, we could have walked off with those titles or at least feature in the finals.

Team Spirit is one thing I know INA has too. For some reason it did not feature too well in 2008 Thomas Cup squad, but the 2008 Uber Cup team took it to heart. Some people might say that it is due to Susi Susanti et al or your 100-years of national awakening. But in the end, only the players can feature on court. And fight on court they did.

Maybe INA would gain some benefit out of it in the Sudirman Cup.

Loh

05-04-2009, 01:36 AM

ctjcad

05-04-2009, 02:51 AM

She's included in the team as well. ;)
And...it's Lindaweni.
..that's right..I had missed the "Sudirman Cup 2009 List of Players" thread..

Jagdpanther

05-04-2009, 03:06 AM

Yes, the team spirit is:

MALAYSIA BOLEH!

;):):D
Never forget our brand new

INDONESIA BISA!

:D:D

CLELY

05-04-2009, 03:18 AM

abedeng

05-04-2009, 04:02 AM

Yes, the team spirit is:

MALAYSIA BOLEH!

;):):D

Err, not really. The team spirit preceded the Malaysia Boleh campaign by half a decade ...... it was the time when BAM leadership from top down was at its best, and willingness to invest in new coaching methods came into being.

Loh

05-04-2009, 04:28 AM

Never forget our brand new

INDONESIA BISA!

:D:D

Maybe we should have one for SINGAPORE:

SINGAPORE ALSO CAN

:):):):p:p:p:D:D:D

CLELY

05-06-2009, 02:03 AM

aulia

05-06-2009, 02:11 AM

good luck for Ina's Team!

ctjcad

05-06-2009, 02:42 AM

INA Sudirman team has left Jakarta to Guangzhou this morning (08.20am) with the target is out as champion.

PB PBSI Chairman, General Djoko Santoso targeted 'Merah Putih' team must win and bring back Sudirman Cup to its homeland. -- (KOMPAS, May 06/09)

A hard mission for INA squad, good luck!
..**must** win??..Talk abt putting so much expectation on the team, that's indeed a very high demand and expectation...
And what if they don't win and bring back the trophy??..:confused:

Jagdpanther

05-06-2009, 05:42 AM

..**must** win??..Talk abt putting so much expectation on the team, that's indeed a very high demand and expectation...
And what if they don't win and bring back the trophy??..:confused:
What do you expect him to say then?

He can't possibly say something like, "Since we are kinda hopeless against team CHN or even KOR with our current strength, I suggest you all to take it easy lah...
Last but not least, have fun in Guangzhou!"
;)

Krisna

05-06-2009, 11:25 AM

Well, I believe most of the ppl here had doubts on Kido/Hendra even after they won the World Championships in 2007 :o They were only convinced after the INA pair won the Beijing Olympics Gold.

Those doubters are just blind. Kido-Hendra has been the World number 1 MD pair or at least top 3 on Earth for the past 3 years... :p

hcpoirot

05-06-2009, 01:28 PM

I am sure that Markis/Kido will probbaly the only pair that always deliver a point for Indonesia when they play against other pairs. But that cannot be said for other players in the team.

CLELY

05-07-2009, 01:29 AM

..**must** win??..Talk abt putting so much expectation on the team, that's indeed a very high demand and expectation...
And what if they don't win and bring back the trophy??..:confused:

As I read through kompas.com -- If INA team fails to reach the target, PBSI Chairman will be responsible. Another news article taken from the Jakarta Post :

Indonesia desperate to add second trophy

Agnes Winarti , The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Wed, 05/06/2009 9:35 AM | Sports

The Indonesian Badminton Association (PBSI) officially announce Tuesday its 35-member squad for the Sudirman Cup in Guangzhou, China.

Scheduled to depart Wednesday, the team comprises 12 men's and eight women's players, seven coaches, two paramedics and six officials.

The biennial world badminton mixed-team event will run from May 10-17.

"We aim to bring the Sudirman Cup back to the country," said PBSI chairman Djoko Santoso during the ceremony at the Cipayung training camp in East Jakarta.

"We realize rivalries among badminton-playing countries have escalated, while we have not shown great achievements in the Super Series tournaments.

"It's time for us to focus and concentrate on winning," he added.

The buildup to the championship has been discouraging for Indonesian shuttlers. Only a handful have attained success in the preceding Super Series.

World No. 1 mixed doubles pair Nova Widianto and Liliyana Natsir were the only Indonesian players to triumph at the Malaysia Open at the beginning of the year.

At the All England Open in Birmingham, no Indonesian singles players reached the finals.

Nova and Liliyana, Sony Dwi Kuncoro, Simon Santoso, Adrianti Firdasari and Pia Zebadiah Bernadet were all defeated in the earlier rounds.

Worse followed at the Swiss Open in Basel, Switzerland. None of the country's shuttlers made it to the semifinals.

Due to injury, top-ranked men's doubles pair Markis Kido and Hendra Setiawan were absent from the two tournaments in Europe, before coming back to salvage Indonesian pride by winning the Asian Championship in Suwon, South Korea, in April.

Besides Kido, Maria Kristin and Sony are among those who have already experienced playing in the Sudirman Cup. However, the three players are still recovering from old injuries.

When asked about his waist injury, Sony simply said, "I'm OK with it and ready to fight."

Maria said, "I just don't want to think about it too much."

This year, the PBSI is marking a breakthrough by sending a relatively young squad, half of whom are first-timers in the Sudirman Cup. They include Tommy Sugiarto in the men's singles, Bona Septano/Muhammad Ahsan and Rian Sukmawan/Yonatan Suryatama in the men's doubles, Shendy Puspa Irawati/Meliana Jauhari and Nitya Krishinda in the women's doubles, mixed doubles player Devin Lahardi and reserve player Fran Kurniawan.

Head Coach Christian Hadinata hoped the first-timers would view their participation in this year's Sudirman Cup as an honor rather than a burden.

"Never take this Sudirman Cup assignment as a burden. Take it as an honor. In addition to that, I also hope the senior players are consistent in their performance to inspire their juniors," he said.

Indonesia won the championship, named after Indonesian badminton legend and PBSI founder Dick Sudirman, in 1989.

China has won it six times and Korea three times. Indonesia has finished as runner-up six times.

The draw for the first-round matches will see second seed Indonesia playing in the same group as third seed China, Japan and England.

ctjcad

05-07-2009, 02:19 AM

What do you expect him to say then?

He can't possibly say something like, "Since we are kinda hopeless against team CHN or even KOR with our current strength, I suggest you all to take it easy lah...
Last but not least, have fun in Guangzhou!"
;)
..well, how about being a bit more modest and realistic?:cool:
How about using something along the lines of "Our target is to reach the Final, but a Semifinal appearance will be considered a success". And no, it is not implying a "let's go and just achieve a Semifinals round appearance" but more of a realistic approach of what's to come and their challenges (like what's been discussed multiple times in this thread).

The way i see the phrase of "must win" being used implies that the INA squad is going there to get it back or else. A do or die mission.
But i'm not surprised also if the phrase is being used non-chalantly or in a teasing mode.

Really, do you, Jagdpanther, realistically see the INA squad winning it??..:confused:
As I read through kompas.com -- If INA team fails to reach the target, PBSI Chairman will be responsible. Another news article taken from the Jakarta Post :

Indonesia desperate to add second trophy
...
*thanks for the news..
As i was reading through the article, i do not see any use of the phrase "must win". Maybe it was used in a different news article or translated differently..:confused:

As for PBSI's chairman being responsible, well, in what ways will he be responsible for?? Btw, i also don't see anything of mention abt him being responsible if and should the INA squad fail to bring the trophy back.

"Must win"???..:confused:

koo_fan

05-07-2009, 06:45 AM

..well, how about being a bit more modest and realistic?:cool:
How about using something along the lines of "Our target is to reach the Final, but a Semifinal appearance will be considered a success". And no, it is not implying a "let's go and just achieve a Semifinals round appearance" but more of a realistic approach of what's to come and their challenges (like what's been discussed multiple times in this thread).

The way i see the phrase of "must win" being used implies that the INA squad is going there to get it back or else. A do or die mission.
But i'm not surprised also if the phrase is being used non-chalantly or in a teasing mode.

Really, do you, Jagdpanther, realistically see the INA squad winning it??..:confused:

Owh, well, being realistic - people like to fancy things, that's unavoidable. do it wisely. No matter how many times we were being told that China is the most possible champion for this edition again, again and again?? there'll be no longer competitive matches if other teams stopped saying, "we're gonna win".
I like your speech,"Our target is to reach the Final, but a Semifinal appearance will be considered a success". (well, u can beat Obama :D~) This is realistic, and at the same time, inspiring too.

The phrase of "Must win" is an unnecessary pressure, even if it was applied to China team.

phaarix

05-07-2009, 07:06 AM

eaglehelang

05-07-2009, 07:13 AM

..well, how about being a bit more modest and realistic?:cool:
How about using something along the lines of "Our target is to reach the Final, but a Semifinal appearance will be considered a success". And no, it is not implying a "let's go and just achieve a Semifinals round appearance" but more of a realistic approach of what's to come and their challenges (like what's been discussed multiple times in this thread).

..

Errr, if the decision makers are actually quoted to say the 2nd part in the press, would be interpreted as not being far thinking, bold, or visionary. They will never say the 2nd part, cos the last edition, INA was runner up, right? Semi is not sucesss but .....

Msia's BAM was critised by NST for stating "we did not set objectives for Sudirman Cup" meaning not daring, being negative, not having confidence in the team. And the reporter talked abt this in 2 articles.

In private & saying in public very different one, hehe:p

CLELY

05-07-2009, 08:17 AM

*thanks for the news..
As i was reading through the article, i do not see any use of the phrase "must win". Maybe it was used in a different news article or translated differently..:confused:
As for PBSI's chairman being responsible, well, in what ways will he be responsible for?? Btw, i also don't see anything of mention abt him being responsible if and should the INA squad fail to bring the trophy back.
"Must win"???..:confused:

Must win target (harus menjadi juara in Bahasa) was taken from KOMPAS print edition,

Dilepas dengan Target Juara
Tim Indonesia Bertolak Hari Ini ke Guangzhou

Rabu, 6 Mei 2009 | 03:42 WIB

Jakarta, Kompas - Dengan diperkuat sembilan pemain yang baru kali ini akan berkompetisi dalam kejuaraan beregu, tim Sudirman Indonesia dilepas oleh Ketua Umum PB PBSI Djoko Santoso. Dalam acara yang digelar di pelatnas Cipayung, Selasa (5/5), Djoko menargetkan juara bagi tim ”Merah Putih”.

”Tidak ada target minimal. Target itu harus menjadi juara,” kata Djoko seusai memberikan pengarahan kepada tim yang diperkuat 20 pemain tersebut.

Selain semua pemain pelatnas, pelatih, dan pengurus PBSI, hadir pula Menteri Negara Pemuda dan Olahraga Adhyaksa Dault serta dua mantan ketua umum PB PBSI, Sutiyoso dan Soerjadi. Acara pelepasan tim Sudirman ini bertepatan dengan perayaan ulang tahun ke-58 PB PBSI.

--------

For second case, taken from kompas.com -- http://olahraga.kompas.com/read/xml/2009/05/05/18001091/djoko.indonesia.gagal.saya.yang.bertanggung.jawab

Need volunteer here to translate both article completely in proper English...

Krisna

05-07-2009, 10:35 AM

And Fran's partner is?:confused:

Possibly Shendy Puspa or Greysia Polii. So PBSI has full confidence with Pelatnas squad, combination of experience and young players.

Frans also can partner with Liliyana if Nova doesn't play well..

Correct! That's the general plan. In case Nova is not fit, then Fran-Lilyana or Fran-Shendy can step in anytime... :cool:

ctjcad

05-07-2009, 07:19 PM

...

The phrase of "Must win" is an unnecessary pressure, even if it was applied to China team.
..of course, every time a team or player wins a championship/title, the "pressure" & expectation to defend the title is always there (just like your beloved ManU;))..But for a team, which is still chasing and trying to get its long lost trophy back, is it really necessary to put such pressure to "must win"??..
Maybe it's so they can experience the *pressure* of playing in a team event :cool:.
..sure, to experience "pressure" is all good & dandy. But then, what "pressure" is there if at the end of the day it's the PBSI's Chairman (as mentioned in the article above) who will be responsible for them winning it or not winning it, rather than the players..
Errr, if the decision makers are actually quoted to say the 2nd part in the press, would be interpreted as not being far thinking, bold, or visionary. They will never say the 2nd part, cos the last edition, INA was runner up, right? Semi is not sucesss but .....
...
..oh yeah, i forgot INA actually had their veteran squad the last 2 SCs. And yet, with those lineups, they were only able to reach the Final round (before getting white-washed).
Now, compare to this yr's squad, which at least half of the team consists roughly of first timers, doesn't it make more sense to temper their expectation?? Wouldn't it make sense to put a target of a Semifinals appearance and a bonus if they could reach the Final round, again??:confused:
Again, as i mentioned before, as long as they can remain in the 1st group for the next SC and reach the Semifinals round, that is already a success & satisfactory enough. A Final round appearance is just a bonus, esp. for this yr's squad.

What do you think their chances are of reaching the Final round??..
...
For second case, taken from kompas.com -- http://olahraga.kompas.com/read/xml/2009/05/05/18001091/djoko.indonesia.gagal.saya.yang.bertanggung.jawab

Need volunteer here to translate both article completely in proper English...
*thanks for the link/news.
All i can gather is, Bang Djoko said he will be responsible whether the team wins or loses. On what type of responsibility he will incur, he said it will depend on what the INA people want.....okaaaaay, what does he think the people really want in return??..:confused: