What would you do...

[Winex West Can]

...under the following conditions either playing in a tourney or a game?

Your opponent hits a shot that landed (obviously) in but the line judge (in tourney) or your partner (if doubles and not tourney) called it out.

If selecting other, please post your response.

[Cheung]

Unfair question,

You pose two different situations, one with a linesman, one without. Which one does your poll refer to because I would choose different answers for each situation?

I got a really good story about this... from the HK annual badminton championships.

[gerry]

Originally posted by Cheung
Unfair question,

You pose two different situations, one with a linesman, one without. Which one does your poll refer to because I would choose different answers for each situation?

I got a really good story about this... from the HK annual badminton championships.

I'm in total agreement Cheung, in my case with a linesman I would leave it, for me his decision is final (right or wrong), without a linesman I would rectify my partners call.

Maybe the poll should be changed to be more specific.

Would love to read your story from the HK ABC.

[Winex West Can]

That's the point of the poll. We refer to badminton as a gentleman's sports but yet we are already discussing about taking a point even though the shot was obviously in. :)

Let say that you are playing in a tourney without the use of linesmen and ump. Would you have taken the point, then? Remember it is still a tourney where prizes/money are at stake.

In snooker, another gentleman's game/sport, the players do call themselves out if the referee didn't notice the violation.

And Cheung, now that you got us posters curious about your story so do please share :D

[badrad]

in but called out:
line judge - pay them the 20 bucks like you promised
partner - keep him/her...

out but called in:
line judge - wait for them in the parking lot - take out the knees if first offence.
partner - whack on the side of the head immediately, something vewwy wong wiff dem...

honestly though. in a tournament, lines judges may make good and bad calls. unless the umpire or ref overrules. accept this as one in your favour, knowing that it could happen just the same the other way. besides, it would be up to your opponent to contest a bad line call.

if you are playing for fun, you could quietly ask your partner what weed he is smoking, shrug your shoulder and play on. or just pass the bird back to your opponent and play a let.

[Matt Ross]

Hi,

If someone called it in/out, i would take it. No doubt the same is happening on the other side, so just accept it and play on...

Matt

[Californian]

In the case of an official making the call, don't you have to accept it either way--for or against you? Protesting a call against you doesn't change anything, so why would it the other way.

In the case of no official making the call, but rather a partner, it may not be so simple. If you are certain you saw it in, what if he/she seems equally certain they saw it out? How well do you know your partner? Is he/she someone you know would try to cheat on a call? Who had the best view, or was closest to it? Do you want an argument on the court with your own partner? Wouldn't you discuss it first? Remember, you have to continue playing with this person.

In my own personal cases, if there's any doubt, I would just play a let. I know there are players out there who would be offended if their judgement was questioned, but I've never had one for a partner (and I wouldn't if I had a choice).

[Eva]

If it's in an official game with linejudges I would just accept the call of the linesman.. It kind of happend to me at a tournament.. It was gamepoint and the ball was inside the court but the linesman called it out.. I just started changing court :confused::rolleyes:.. they obviously were complaining:mad:. I really felt guilty but on international tournaments they do the same thing to you!

When I play an match with just a judge I would just inform him and be honest...

[Tezta.com]

I remember once during the 98 thomas cup, Dong Jiong played a net shot that was clearly in and Kenneth Jonassen hit the bird back to Dong, the line judge called it out and the Umpire said the call was final. Ofcourse Dong was pissed and started pointing at the line judge, Kenneth was a good sport as he knew the shot was totally in, and served the bird directly into the middle of the net. THat was a very nice gesture, and turns out Kenneth won that match.:)

[nSmash]

Originally posted by Tezta.com
I remember once during the 98 thomas cup, Dong Jiong played a net shot that was clearly in and Kenneth Jonassen hit the bird back to Dong, the line judge called it out and the Umpire said the call was final. Ofcourse Dong was pissed and started pointing at the line judge, Kenneth was a good sport as he knew the shot was totally in, and served the bird directly into the middle of the net. THat was a very nice gesture, and turns out Kenneth won that match.:)

Now who said that nice guys finish last? ;) :D
Long live gentlemen in badminton! :)

[Cheung]

Tezta, were you there at the HK ABC watching the match between Lin Wan Ting and Koon Wai Chee (S/f ladies singles)? Did you see the incident?

[Cheung]

Guess Tezta wasn;t there?:)

Anyway so it's s/f between Ling Wan Ting (HK no.2) and Koon Wai Chee(HK no.3)

Ling WT hits a shot to the deep forehand corner that's called in by the linesman.
Koon WC protests a lot.
Umpire confirms with linesman.
Lots of discussion continue with Koon saying the shuttle was obviously out.
Play has stopped for a few minutes.

Everybody watching other matches(I'm sitting quite far away) now knows something is up.

Two people behind me (strike up a conversation) a guy and a women. The women must be a Koon WC supporter saying the point should be given to Koon WC. The guy says the umpire cannot overrule the linesman. The women says the shuttle was obviously out so the point should be Koon WC's. AT this point I can't resist butting in with my big mouth:D and say the linesman cannot be overruled and the point should be Ling WT's (but the linesman can be changed). The women gets a bit annoyed somebody has butted in and says "but it was definately out. The (morally) right thing to do is to give the point to Koon WC".
My reply is "Don't care(!). The rules state clearly linesman cannot be overruled even if shuttle clearly out"
The women protests again but I said "It doesn't matter what you think. The rules say xxxx so the rules gotta be followed". The women goes off sulking.

Back to the match.
Amazingly, the umpire after some deliberation (who has umpired in HK Open and should know her stuff) orders a 'let' to be played.
This obviously pisses off Ling Wan Ting big time who now gets into the argumentative mood.

The umpire deliberates again consulting the tournament referee. The linesman is changed and I think the point is given to Ling WT (memory bit hazy now. It was 3 months ago:) )

Both women are well and truly pissed off by this time and the match carries on. Ling WT makes more mistakes though and eventually Koon WC makes less mistakes to win the match.

I think the match stops for nearly ten minutes while all this is going on.
Excellent stuff though, it certainly livened up the evening.

All credit to the umpire messing around!!

[Winex West Can]

To summarize:
First of all, the poll as pointed out by others is probably not quite fair but I can't edit the options.

Most folks will take the point (a number indicated that the line judge has the ultimate responsibility for the lines). A number of you also indicated that if you could, you would refuse the point.

Definitely, in a social game, all would give the point. I think in most social games, the one closest to the shuttle has the ultimate authority.

Tetza's story about Kenneth Jonassen highlight the essence of good sportsmanship. Knowing that the call was incorrect but unable to do anything about it, Kenneth loses the next point on purpose. We have been taught as kids that winning isn't everything but how you play the game define you as a person & player.

Cheung. Nice story about the HK women singles. :D

Cheers,
Thanks for taking part in the poll.

Favour to ask of the moderators. Can you guys please close off the poll?

[Dill]

Other - as I do at present hit the next serve into the net in an obvious way so everyone knows what has just happened.

The same if I am playing with a new doubles partner who makes a bad call, next serve goes straight into the net, I hate cheats!!! :mad:


But why was this moved to the top of the board after so long???

[Trance]

But why was this moved to the top of the board after so long???

Maybe you should close threads after a year -_-. Either that or Dill's just gonna spam ancient topics.

[tinkerbella122]

But why was this moved to the top of the board after so long???

I don't know but in a way , I'm sort of glad it did :) ... I mean these are some very interesting topics ;) ...

[Dill]

Maybe you should close threads after a year -_-. Either that or Dill's just gonna spam ancient topics.

Actually I posted because it was back up the top of the discussion board, it was put there by someone else voting in the poll, not me posting :p

You can't really close threads after a year, when new people come to the site and do a search are we to deprive tehm of the ability to post on a topic? Thats why the discussion is cyclic.

Maybe closing the polls after a year :eek: , a couple of months might be better ;)

[bigredlemon]

I can confirm that voting does indeed bump a post.

It looks like BF's sorting system goes by when any content within a thread is appended, not when the last post is made. Probably a bug as other vb forums doesn't do this.

[Dill]

As I remember Kwun changed the way polls are viewed by the software a while back so they would just act like a thread, if someone voted it would be as if they posted a reply and the poll would be moved back up the rankings.

But being open afer such a long time :confused:

[Pball]

I remember once during the 98 thomas cup, Dong Jiong played a net shot that was clearly in and Kenneth Jonassen hit the bird back to Dong, the line judge called it out and the Umpire said the call was final. Ofcourse Dong was pissed and started pointing at the line judge, Kenneth was a good sport as he knew the shot was totally in, and served the bird directly into the middle of the net. THat was a very nice gesture, and turns out Kenneth won that match.:)


Very Nice indeed..

I usually inform the umpire if I am certain it is in... up to him to reverse the call or not.. with shot that I'm not sure of .. I leave the decision to the linesman/umpire..

regards

[Eurasian =--(O)]

depends on the circumstances of teh game totally. If i'm in a tournament, close game im going to call it in my favor if there is any thought in my mind that it was out. No cheating tho. If i was playing my cousin and he hits something close i'm giong to give it to him if we are playing for fun

[keith_aquino]

I don't know! :crying:
I want to win and of course I don't want to cheat; but sometimes it contradicts my wanting to win.

[tinkerbella122]

I don't know! :crying:
I want to win and of course I don't want to cheat; but sometimes it contradicts my wanting to win.

It can be tempting , but don't let that get to you ! It's only a point. Besides , if you are meant to win , you will ... but cheating is definitely not the way ;)

[keith_aquino]

It can be tempting , but don't let that get to you ! It's only a point. Besides , if you are meant to win , you will ... but cheating is definitely not the way ;)

Yeah, you're probably right. I would feel more satisfied by not cheating.

[tinkerbella122]

Yeah, you're probably right. I would feel more satisfied by not cheating.

Yup ... and not to mention the respect you'll gain :)

[keith_aquino]

Yup ... and not to mention the respect you'll gain :)

Yeah, but maybe cheating once wouldn't hurt :D.
Nah, I wouldn't do that. Thanks tinkerbella for letting me
give thought to it.

[raptorman]

I'd always give the point to the opponents. I also have sometimes the bad habbit of moving a foot when serving, my opponents never notice, but my coach does and we just stop playing the point then.

[keith_aquino]

I'd always give the point to the opponents. I also have sometimes the bad habbit of moving a foot when serving, my opponents never notice, but my coach does and we just stop playing the point then.

Do you mean that on the moment you serve, you just suddenly move a foot? What serve did/do you use?

[raptorman]

Do you mean that on the moment you serve, you just suddenly move a foot? What serve did/do you use?

Yes, it happened sometimes when performing a flick serve. It's only a couple of centimeters, but it's still a couple of centimeters too much :D

[keith_aquino]

Yes, it happened sometimes when performing a flick serve. It's only a couple of centimeters, but it's still a couple of centimeters too much :D

Picturing it kinda' makes me die with laughter. How many centimeters are we talking about?

[keith_aquino]

Picturing it kinda' makes me die with laughter. How many centimeters are we talking about?

Oh, don't mind that post. I just realized that we should discuss in improving ourselves and not laugh at each other. :o Sorry for that.

[akiE~*]

Yeah, but maybe cheating once wouldn't hurt :D.
Nah, I wouldn't do that. Thanks tinkerbella for letting me
give thought to it.

u wont feel rite after all that faking ....... ^^*
true guy i guess u ought 2 be .... !^^

[tinkerbella122]

Yeah, but maybe cheating once wouldn't hurt :D.
Nah, I wouldn't do that. Thanks tinkerbella for letting me
give thought to it.

No problem ~! :)

[Noob848]

heheh id call it out even if it was in, but the line judge called it out, because i don't give a crap about if they win or lose, and you must know this can happen to you, so i'd take this as a favour from god

[DinkAlot]

...under the following conditions either playing in a tourney or a game?

Your opponent hits a shot that landed (obviously) in but the line judge (in tourney) or your partner (if doubles and not tourney) called it out.

If selecting other, please post your response.

Here are two different scenarios:

Tournament/line judge calls out: I would not say anything unless the shuttle was way in the green. Then I would look at my partner and if he agreed, give the opponents the point or play a let.

Game/partner calls out: Again, I would agree/support my partner's call unless it was in the green. Then I would say to my partner quietly, the shuttle was way in. If he agrees, we either give the point or play a let. The key here is to try and support my partner's call. I will not disagree with my partner unless my partner is being completely unreasonable or completely off base.

It's just bad to go against your partner. And if your partner is truly cheating, consistently, it's time to find another partner. :p

[wilfredlgf]

My answer will be, "You can't be serious!".

[SPaterson]

I've got to agree I'd find it hard to go against my partner shouting out, I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation to be honest; but luckily, I don't have to make that kind of decision because I've never played doubles/mixed competitively (i.e. in a league/tournament), only singles :p . In a social if it was called out by my partner I'd dis-agree with them, perhaps putting it in a bit of a tactful way rather than forcing it, e.g "err, I think that was out, really." and so on.

In singles, socially or in a league or tournament, if I saw and was quite sure the shuttle was in on my side but called out, I'd tell the truth and say I thought that was in, handing it to my opponent. I'd much rather win completely honestly, even if my opponent would take advantage of such an oppertunity. I'd hate a victory to be 'tainted'.

If the shuttle was called out when it was in but I didn't see it land in, tough luck :p

[Winex West Can]

Wow! This thread is still alive after all these years. Great responses and obviously there are certain things that we cannot changed. E.g. in a formal tourney, if the line judge rule the shot to be out, the player benefiting from the call is not going to argue but good sportspersonship would dictate that you hit the next rally into the net (like Jonansen did). With the new 21-rally scoring system, we might see less of this sportspersonship as you lose points if you decided to give away your serve.

[ViningWolff]

I'd give my opponent the point, even if meant losing the game. Calling my own lines I tend to say "ah, close enough" and give the shuttle over.

It does pay off sometimes. In the recent alberta series I did my typical "close enough (I had no real idea as I had so much sweat in my eye) ... he said "nope" and gave the shuttle back. He earned a lot of respect.

[Bigman]

Honesty is the best practice. Its called sportmanship.

[Baderz_Jas]

Honesty is the best practice. Its called sportmanship.

I know! Everyone says it! :o :D It just doesn't feel right lying/cheating :crying: :D

[DivingBirdie]

err no. maybe i have bad ethics but i think it's not a player's duty to rectify a bad line call. play by the rules and play to win. that's sportsmanship

[inferno32]

I figure if it was an important game near the end I'd ask for a reserve, but if I'm just playing with some friends I'll give them the point.

[adrian.sutikna]

Unfair question,

You pose two different situations, one with a linesman, one without. Which one does your poll refer to because I would choose different answers for each situation?

I got a really good story about this... from the HK annual badminton championships.
amen to that...

[a_n_d_y]

im always honest, but sometimes when it's out, they freak out and say its in and i just say whatever and let them have it anways. I hate argueing over those.

[westwood_13]

A recent major study came out indicating the ethics of high-level athletes to be of much lower 'moral quality' than compared to other university student groups.

They were more likely to cheat than not, essentially. Ethical aptitude scores were lowest among football (American), hockey, and basketball players.

Scary, eh?

[jerby]

A recent major study came out indicating the ethics of high-level athletes to be of much lower 'moral quality' than compared to other university student groups.

They were more likely to cheat than not, essentially. Ethical aptitude scores were lowest among football (American), hockey, and basketball players.

Scary, eh?funny you mentioned three teamsports as well...

at higehr levels people do everything to win, unfortunatly including cheating..with team-sports the pressure is even higher...

for badminton, I fidn the A player much more fair to other A's..than C's amongst each other...

[CoolDoo6]

That's the point of the poll. We refer to badminton as a gentleman's sports but yet we are already discussing about taking a point even though the shot was obviously in. :)


It would not be gentlemanly to embarrass the lines man and possibly casue him to lose his job.

[jerby]

being a linesmen is not a job...it's called "volunteering"

either way,
in a normal situation (no ump/linesmen) I'd call it in. There's now way I could live with myself if I didn't

with a linesmen, I'd say he's right. he/she is sitting square on the line and has a much better view of the line.
If it was clearly in (the case where a linesmen would be blind as a bat) I'd inform the ump...but in all honesty, I've never seen it happen...

I have, on one occasion, "embarassed" an ump (as CD calls it). my opponent hit a crosscourt netshot, away from the ump. It was a beauty and landed in. Ump said out, I said 'nope'...
Afterwards (I was 15) I got a compliment from the ump (being a good sport), and all was well...
and yes, he still has his "job"...I see him on occasions

[tcyc1984]

Wrong line calls either by players or linesmen happen all the time and its unavoidable, so its up to the players to make the decision, which is morally acceptable to them. When I'm playing games, I try to be as fair as possible. ie. Theres several times I thought the birdy would be out the second before it was landing and I made a call, but the birdy was in or touched the line after landing, I changed the call to favour my opponent. In some situations, I just gave the point when there were doubtful calls. (I know sometimes its stupid to be honest like that, but why bother to make myself a lier just because of a point or two in a game?)
Well, but there are always unreasonable people outthere... In a tourney for peoples in my university campus, I played with a girl in the final (since there were only a few girls joined the game, so they were put in the same pool as guys.. anyways, she was good thats why she got into final..) Theres once the birdy landed very close to the single's service line on the backcourt of my side, it was out so I made a call. That girl looked at me as if I was lying and said "it was in". There weren't any linesmen or judges, so it should be the player who was closest to the birdy to make the decision. She didn't believe me and made it sound as if I was trying to rip her off. Anyways, as a gentleman, I just gave her the point, but it sure affected my mood for the rest of the game.

[robc06]

At my last tournament, in my singles there was a suspect call for me. I hit a attacking clear which landed out by 3-4 inches. Clearly I thought it was OUT. Umpire called IN. Opposition hit the shuttle back to me. And I hit it back to him and took up posistion ready to receive the serve.

The umpire looked at the opposition and myself and didn't dispute his call at all.

If the shuttle is close to the line, and a call cannot be made decisively, and it's called out/in after deliberation. I will make a point of looking at the umpire for clarification, or the linesman.

What I dont agree with is when a umpire/linesman cannot make a clear decison, didn't see the line etc. And after thinking about the answer makes a decison. A umpire/linesman as I can see needs to make a decison straight away, right or wrong or play a let.

[offscott]

What the coach says is final.

[venkatesh]

What the coach says is final.

You mean the umpire? :confused:

[BUnstable]

In provincial tournament I go to, there is no line judges... You can have them if you start to think that your opponent cheats with the line and ask for some judges and if you are in finals. Even there, I think that there is no Umpire.

[Danstevens]

Honesty is the best policy here. If it's in, tell the umpire it is.

I saw this happen in a table tennis match before. Nobody really knew whether the ball touched the top of the table or the side. The players wanted to give the point to each other and had a standoff for about 5 minutes. In the end, they agreed to play a let.

If the shuttle was blatantly in, I'd give the point away. If it was close, then I'd ask my opponent(s) if they were happy to play a let.

[Stephanie15]

i will ask for a let.

[Baddersmum]

My son was playing a very important game of mixed, when the following happened

He was wating to receivd serve
It was served & he left it thinking it was short
The shuttle landed and he passed it back to the server, giving them the point
The referee over ruled him saying it was short & the point was his
My son then went on to disagree with the referee and insisted that the point was given to the oppostion.

He lost 21 19 !!!

Afterwards he said it was so far in that he couldn't take the point

[chrisnchips]

i'd ask for a let... or if i had the service or return I'd just purposefully make a mistake to give back the point if i gained a point on a bad call.

[jnce00]

It happened at the rubber set of the 2007 French Open Men Doubles QF. KKK/TBH lost 1 point to Tadashi/Keisha and TBH sent the dead shuttle to the other side but the umpire still gave the Malaysia pair the point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfYNkePtHjo

[hellopanda3]

Linesmen:
Singles and Doubles:
If the shuttle landed clearly in, but was called out. The umpire should quickly overrule the call. If no overrule was issued, the call should stand. That's how the game is played. I would think since the umpire did not overrule that my judgement was incorrect. It is the umpire's responsibility that all calls are accurate. That is why they are there. I would hold no grudge against a player who agreed with the umpire if it had happen to me. I'd get mad for a while, but there is nothing as a player I can do. It's not like tennis where there is a challenge system.
Without Linesmen:
Singles:
If it was close and I cannot CLEARLY tell if the shuttle was in or out, I will give the point to my opponent. Without linemen, it is the players' responsibility to make the right calls.
Doubles:
Unless I am right next to where the shuttle landed and clearly saw it in, I will respect my partner's decision 100% if he or she (mixed) called it out. Also, unless I was right there to see the shuttle go out, I would respect my partner's decision 100% if he or she called it in.

The situation with the Malaysian Doubles Pair:
Although the Malaysians should have said something, the service judge, for making such a horrible call, and the umpire, for agreeing with such a horrible call, should be banned FOREVER! Having said this, the Malaysians should've said something.

[matt30mb]

All credit to the umpire messing around!!

What umpire should do is to overrule the linesman if it was obvious that the line judge has made a mistake (there is also a service judge on the court who can unofficially help the umpire with descret gesture (for example pointing finger down for in) showing his oppinion about in or out) ...

If not, he should go with the linesman, and insist to play on - if any of the players doesn't want to, he has a yellow and red card in his pocket and he should use them ...

So, maybe the referee should change the umpire :) :) instead of the line judge...

[LD rules!]

It happened at the rubber set of the 2007 French Open Men Doubles QF. KKK/TBH lost 1 point to Tadashi/Keisha and TBH sent the dead shuttle to the other side but the umpire still gave the Malaysia pair the point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfYNkePtHjo

I don't understand what happened here.

[Athelete1234]

I don't understand what happened here.
KKK/TBH hit the shuttle into the net which fails to go over, and then they push the birdie over to the japanese. However, teh umpire thought that the bird hit the tape and rolled over to the japanese's side, giving the malaysians the point.

[lukasek97]

It happened at the rubber set of the 2007 French Open Men Doubles QF. KKK/TBH lost 1 point to Tadashi/Keisha and TBH sent the dead shuttle to the other side but the umpire still gave the Malaysia pair the point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfYNkePtHjo


I don't understand what happened here.

Same cos the resolution on youtube is really bad

[GameGod]

The shot landed in. If there was a line judge, which there is in most tournaments, I would accept their decision. If it was my partner, then I would correct them and agree to lose the point. This has only happened to me once before in any match situation.

[extremenanopowe]

leave it to the linesman. Not worth the stress. ;)

[gendruw]

i will happily take the point and the blame goes to the linesman hehehe

[thejym]

In a finals game in a tournament, I was playing against a friend (at the time, he was more of an acquaintance). I hit a shot which felt like it was going out, so I wasn't surprised when my opponent called it out (though it was a tough call). The umpire overruled and gave me the point, but I said that I agreed with my opponent's call and gave him the point and the serve. I think a player should have the right to give the point to their opponent if they think that the umpire made a mistake, though whether or not they exercise is a different matter.

This occurred in the second set after I had gotten a second leg cramp, so I figured I probably wasn't going to win the match anyway. Had this been at 18-18 or 19-19, I would've probably taken the point and just considered myself lucky. There's a bit of luck that's sometimes part of the game, but that's just how it is.

[CantSmashThis]

Close calls always happen, and mistakes also always happen, as an umpire myself, I would have to respect the calls of my line judges (if any) unless I'm 100% sure their call is wrong, that is the rules of the umpire. If there are no line judges, but the umpire disagrees with the player even though you would give the point to your opponent, just accept that fact and play on, like I said, mistakes happen. If for sure you're 100% sure that the umpire made a mistake, be a fair sport and hit into the net then.