Malaysia GP Gold 2009 Final China XD will play dirty

[polis]

China Mix Double will play dirty this afternoon final.

Due to betting site handicap,bet 100 for Zheng Bo / Ma Jin (WIN 250)
bet 100 for Xu Chen / Zhao Yunlei(Only Win 22)
:mad::mad:

[kkkfans]

its real anot?
where did u hear frm??
why china player always like tat d...
very jia lat!!!!

[Dreamzz]

wow, what a scandalous accusation!
do you have any proof to back this up??

[george@chongwei]

i think this is a spam.;)

[banjamine]

Wow,cheap words

[polis]

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z277/pavelbk/aa.jpg

[Oldhand]

Well, it will be interesting to see if what he says is true ;)

[CantSmashThis]

Lol match ends by forfeit due to injury.

[Oldhand]

So, now it's clear that Zheng Bo & Ma Jin were the safe bet :D

[panasonic_chai]

this post is not a spam.. it has come true
shame shame LYB

[Chibot]

I dont understand that betting system, can anyone explain it?

[george@chongwei]

Due to the injury?:rolleyes: by the way, to those who bet that match also will be considered as VOID due to walkover;)

[Krisna]

I want to say something about LYB again, but I'm afraid I will be banned from BC... So I'll just keep quiet...

[Badmintan]

Yep, I dunno what happen, but the game ended quickly which was a good thing. :D It was frozen at 5-5.

The medic just chat with the 'injured' player and then the China team medic; then it was over.

Basically the 'injured' player just walk to the podium to collect the check, easy money. :o

Pardon my poor camera/phone

[limsy]

haha,i see,after injured,still can receive prize money right? great recovery then.superb

[freelast]

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z277/pavelbk/aa.jpg

please educate me how this works? I'm sorry that I'm too dumb on betting.

If I paid $100 for Ma Jin/Zhen Bo, now they won, how much I would win? $250?

If I paid $100 for Zhao YL/Xu Chen, if they had won, how much would have won? $22?

If that's true, then that only proves the chance they put were so wrong.

What do the red color and blue mean?

what are the meanings of odd and even?

[cooler]

haha,i see,after injured,still can receive prize money right? great recovery then.superbconsider it an appreciation that some chinese team came to the MAS Open. If i were them and had a nick on my finger, i would stay home and practice for the WC and risk nothing by going to the MAS open.

[cooler]

I want to say something about LYB again, but I'm afraid I will be banned from BC... So I'll just keep quiet...please say whatever u wanted to say, we're not shy. Just one point tho, u should back it up with facts.

[Siegfried_Li]

First of all, there is NO EVIDENCE that the bet is true. No link, but only a small picture which is very vague and anyone could make that up. Even if the picture is true, it could also be from a forum gambling game where no real money is involved.
Second, what is wrong with getting injured and still being present at the ceremony? Only a broken leg and lying on bed is considered injury or what? So the athelete has no right to quit and protect himself or what?
If you watch the replay of the game, you can see clearly how ZYL got injured on her knee. If you choose to believe it was fake, please find GROUND EVIDENCE. Otherwise it is not the game that is dirty, but your mind.

[thesoothsayer]

please educate me how this works? I'm sorry that I'm too dumb on betting.

If I paid $100 for Ma Jin/Zhen Bo, now they won, how much I would win? $250?

If I paid $100 for Zhao YL/Xu Chen, if they had won, how much would have won? $22?

If that's true, then that only proves the chance they put were so wrong.

What do the red color and blue mean?

what are the meanings of odd and even?

Yeah, please clarify what it means. It's strange that Zheng/Ma pair would give better returns for winning. Aren't they the higher ranking pair?

[madbad]

First of all, there is NO EVIDENCE that the bet is true. No link, but only a small picture which is very vague and anyone could make that up. Even if the picture is true, it could also be from a forum gambling game where no real money is involved.
Second, what is wrong with getting injured and still being present at the ceremony? Only a broken leg and lying on bed is considered injury or what? So the athelete has no right to quit and protect himself or what?
If you watch the replay of the game, you can see clearly how ZYL got injured on her knee. If you choose to believe it was fake, please find GROUND EVIDENCE. Otherwise it is not the game that is dirty, but your mind.

Gosh, calm down mate. You might pull something getting all worked up over this.

What you should do first is search the Forum and read the general workings of Team CHN in a tournament. Then you'll understand why every incident involving CHN v CHN players is treated with suspicion.

Again I'm in no way implying the injury is fake. I've read somewhere though that it was an ankle injury but she got her thigh wrapped at courtside. Just didn't match up for me.

[Athelete1234]

ZB/MJ would whip them anyways...there isn't any reason to suspect they would lose.

[nokh88]

I am not a fan of the Chinese badminton team because of LYB. He is too arrogant but I do support some individual players esp those who have left the national team. As for the games involving CHN vs CHN, there is a rule that they will go all out in the first game and whoever lost will play tamely after that and be eliminated so that the victor won't have to exert themselves.

[eaglehelang]

First of all, there is NO EVIDENCE that the bet is true. No link, but only a small picture which is very vague and anyone could make that up. Even if the picture is true, it could also be from a forum gambling game where no real money is involved.
Second, what is wrong with getting injured and still being present at the ceremony? Only a broken leg and lying on bed is considered injury or what? So the athelete has no right to quit and protect himself or what?
If you watch the replay of the game, you can see clearly how ZYL got injured on her knee. If you choose to believe it was fake, please find GROUND EVIDENCE. Otherwise it is not the game that is dirty, but your mind.

This is not just from this match alone but many, many other previous incidents when it's CHina vs China . Thus, in the finals thread, someone mentioned 'boy crying wolf' thing. Look around the forum, you'll know.

Which means : previously china players have given walkovers or retired when vs team mates. THe very next week they can play fine, when they are supposedly injured. In previous incidents, there were eye witness account of the supposed injured player still training after giving walkover .

So, by now, whether Zhao YL's injury is real or not, very few will believe it, especially since it happened at 5-5 of 1st set.;)

[jasonmarc]

This is not just from this match alone but many, many other previous incidents when it's CHina vs China . Thus, in the finals thread, someone mentioned 'boy crying wolf' thing. Look around the forum, you'll know.

Which means : previously china players have given walkovers or retired when vs team mates. THe very next week they can play fine, when they are supposedly injured. In previous incidents, there were eye witness account of the supposed injured player still training after giving walkover .

So, by now, whether Zhao YL's injury is real or not, very few will believe it, especially since it happened at 5-5 of 1st set.;)

I was at the stadium....hmmm...it show no sign,..just suddently ZYL went to inform the judge that she needed medical treatment....and was announced w/o after that.......

Most of the fans in the stadium...were not satisfied with the w/o.....all of them thinks that chn.....have done it again..........:mad::mad: to prepare MJ for the later WD.........;);)....

[cooler]

I am not a fan of the Chinese badminton team because of LYB. He is too arrogant but I do support some individual players esp those who have left the national team. As for the games involving CHN vs CHN, there is a rule that they will go all out in the first game and whoever lost will play tamely after that and be eliminated so that the victor won't have to exert themselves.


This is not just from this match alone but many, many other previous incidents when it's CHina vs China . Thus, in the finals thread, someone mentioned 'boy crying wolf' thing. Look around the forum, you'll know.

Which means : previously china players have given walkovers or retired when vs team mates. THe very next week they can play fine, when they are supposedly injured. In previous incidents, there were eye witness account of the supposed injured player still training after giving walkover .

So, by now, whether Zhao YL's injury is real or not, very few will believe it, especially since it happened at 5-5 of 1st set.;)
Wow, LYB is truly a genius indeed. He can instill such fear and suspicion even when he isn't there. Pretty soon, the LYB experts can read LYB's mind by the different ways he wears his cap, the different ways he crosses his leg, etc.
MAS Open titles are such an important goal for him that he has to resort to this elaborate scheme. Thanks for pointing that out to me, i totally missed that.

[abedeng]

This has been discussed in previous threads, some BC forummers even went to talk to some of the CHN team contingent on this issue ..........

The "injured" players' acting skills, though, have yet to reach academy award level.

[eaglehelang]

MAS Open titles are such an important goal for him that he has to resort to this elaborate scheme. Thanks for pointing that out to me, i totally missed that.

Dont pretend you dont know, you were here when those observations were made by BCers with insider info.
AND : you misunderstood, we were explaining that whether it's planned or not, nobody will believe ZYL really injured, since Ma Jin had to play WD later. So coincidence one. ;) This kinda things has happened often (too often perhaps) when it's China vs CHina.
If MJ/Wang playing in WC, then the WR pts will come in handy.

Titles not that important to you perhaps, you didnt hear the disappointment in the GD SPorts commentators when mighty China didnt win at least 3 titles in INA SS, esp WS & WD.

[cooler]

Dont pretend you dont know, you were here when those observations were made by BCers with insider info.
AND : you misunderstood, we were explaining that whether it's planned or not, nobody will believe ZYL really injured, since Ma Jin had to play WD later. So coincidence one. ;) This kinda things has happened often (too often perhaps) when it's China vs CHina.
If MJ/Wang playing in WC, then the WR pts will come in handy.

Titles not that important to you perhaps, you didnt hear the disappointment in the GD SPorts commentators when mighty China didnt win at least 3 titles in INA SS, esp WS & WD.
i must had missed those insider info.

My view is, if i'm ZYL, i would not risk compounding my injury, no matter how innocently small it is, just before the WC event. Regarding saving Ma jin's energy for the WD final, if u look at the PAW picks, most have already chosen mj/wyl beating ceh/wpt before the match. If pawers believe this before the match, i'm sure lyb would believed that too. Of course, you point is well taken as well, without facts, nothing is 100% certain.

[abedeng]

Of course, you point is well taken as well, without facts, nothing is 100% certain.

Yeah, well obviously no one from CHN squad is going to have a statutory declaration released to the public domain on this. :p

[ants]

Bets are not valid if there is injury involved.. that is what i was told.

[bananakid]

My question is since people are SO FAMILIAR with team China's "tactics", then why didn't the "GENIUS" organizer of this tournament put the WD match first before the XD match???:confused::confused::confused: or was the organizer trying to set it up in a way in hope that they could tire out Ma Jin first prior to her WD match against the host Malaysia?:rolleyes:

All in all, don't blame team China whether this injury is valid or not... blame the GENIUS tournament organizer. LOL

[Oldhand]

Assuming it was a team drama, I wonder how the 'injury' would have played out if the Women's Doubles had been scheduled before the Mixed Doubles :p

[Oldhand]

bananakid, after seeing the similarity in our latest posts, I hope someone doesn't insinuate or allege a conspiracy of thought :o

[bananakid]

bananakid, after seeing the similarity in our latest posts, I hope someone doesn't insinuate or allege a conspiracy of thought :o

Yeah... seriously, anyone with half a brain would have figured out to put the WD match first before the XD match, if they want to prevent a "true or not" injury or any kind of withdrawl.

One more thing that I question about this crappy tournament... isn't the whole point of hosting an additional tournament in Malaysia is to "promote" badminton? Then why in the world that this tournament is only broadcast in so few places, and even with "news report" in the middle of the broadcast???:rolleyes:

[cooler]

One more thing that I question about this crappy tournament... isn't the whole point of hosting an additional tournament in Malaysia is to "promote" badminton? Then why in the world that this tournament is only broadcast in so few places, and even with "news report" in the middle of the broadcast???:rolleyes:i forgot to tell you, LYB had it arranged to go that way too. He is such a genius, maybe 2nd only to Kim Jong-il*.

*On his first ever trip to the golf course, he shot 38-under par, including 5 hole-in-ones! This is reported by the government controlled media. He routinely shoots 3 or 4 hole-in-ones every time out. N. Korean media also reports that Jong-il bowled a perfect game-300, on his first time out bowling!

[madbad]

i forgot to tell you, LYB had it arranged to go that way too. He is such a genius, maybe 2nd only to Kim Jong-il*.

*On his first ever trip to the golf course, he shot 38-under par, including 5 hole-in-ones! This is reported by the government controlled media. He routinely shoots 3 or 4 hole-in-ones every time out. N. Korean media also reports that Jong-il bowled a perfect game-300, on his first time out bowling!

Damn, that man is a genius. Perhaps his fellow genius bananakid could have invited him to organize the Malaysian Grand Prix Gold.

Or perhaps he could have invited the self-proclaimed "most interesting man in the world" from the Dos Equis ads currently running on TV :D

[madbad]

Yeah... seriously, anyone with half a brain would have figured out to put the WD match first before the XD match, if they want to prevent a "true or not" injury or any kind of withdrawl.

One more thing that I question about this crappy tournament... isn't the whole point of hosting an additional tournament in Malaysia is to "promote" badminton? Then why in the world that this tournament is only broadcast in so few places, and even with "news report" in the middle of the broadcast???:rolleyes:

Crappy? In what way?

[panasonic_chai]

My question is since people are SO FAMILIAR with team China's "tactics", then why didn't the "GENIUS" organizer of this tournament put the WD match first before the XD match???:confused::confused::confused: or was the organizer trying to set it up in a way in hope that they could tire out Ma Jin first prior to her WD match against the host Malaysia?:rolleyes:

All in all, don't blame team China whether this injury is valid or not... blame the GENIUS tournament organizer. LOL

way before the match started, someone already created this thread .. and at 5-5 1st match, ZYL got "injured"!
haha so dramatic.. again chinese players are better actors/actresses compared to their court skilll thanks to LYB the great film director of badminton world :)

[markchan]

Crappy? In what way?

Crappy................becos LCW won....:D

[hcyong]

Yeah... seriously, anyone with half a brain would have figured out to put the WD match first before the XD match, if they want to prevent a "true or not" injury or any kind of withdrawl.

One more thing that I question about this crappy tournament... isn't the whole point of hosting an additional tournament in Malaysia is to "promote" badminton? Then why in the world that this tournament is only broadcast in so few places, and even with "news report" in the middle of the broadcast???:rolleyes:

It's not a crappy tournament. It's the crappy TV station.

And you don't need to promote badminton in Malaysia.

[george@chongwei]

I was at the stadium....hmmm...it show no sign,..just suddently ZYL went to inform the judge that she needed medical treatment....and was announced w/o after that.......

Most of the fans in the stadium...were not satisfied with the w/o.....all of them thinks that chn.....have done it again..........:mad::mad: to prepare MJ for the later WD.........;);)....
oh, i see.. so now could u calm us down with posting some badminton pics from the mas gp..btw did u took any?:rolleyes::p:confused:

way before the match started, someone already created this thread .. and at 5-5 1st match, ZYL got "injured"!
haha so dramatic.. again chinese players are better actors/actresses compared to their court skilll thanks to LYB the great film director of badminton world :)
This was just coincident i would say.:cool:

[jasonmarc]

oh, i see.. so now could u calm us down with posting some badminton pics from the mas gp..btw did u took any?:rolleyes::p:confused:



:D...pai-seh..........actually i didnt ! :o:o

Havent LCW's wins calmed u down already...? :confused::confused:

[Oldhand]

Damn, that man is a genius. Perhaps his fellow genius bananakid could have invited him to organize the Malaysian Grand Prix Gold.

Or perhaps he could have invited the self-proclaimed "most interesting man in the world" from the Dos Equis ads currently running on TV :D

"His blood smells like cologne" :D :D :D

[eaglehelang]

i must had missed those insider info.

My view is, if i'm ZYL, i would not risk compounding my injury, no matter how innocently small it is, just before the WC event. Regarding saving Ma jin's energy for the WD final, if u look at the PAW picks, most have already chosen mj/wyl beating ceh/wpt before the match. If pawers believe this before the match, i'm sure lyb would believed that too. Of course, you point is well taken as well, without facts, nothing is 100% certain.

LOL, the underlined part, seriously lah, I think you didnt "miss" the posts abt earlier incidents, you forgot only.

During INA SS also, who would think ZHao YL/SC can lose? Suddenly they lose, embarassing. GD commentators said sthing like CHina's women's dept traditional will win, lose is ehem... not good.

Anyway, my main point was even if the injury was real, very few will believe, cos has happened too often when it's China vs China.

[eaglehelang]

It's not a crappy tournament. It's the crappy TV station.

.

Yup, and that's the free government station, what to do. They must be assuming everyone interested is watching Astro.;) But for SS tourneys, RTM didnt do that, there were sponsors for the broadcast I suppose.

[eaglehelang]

Assuming it was a team drama, I wonder how the 'injury' would have played out if the Women's Doubles had been scheduled before the Mixed Doubles :p

Traditionally XD is played 1st, too bad :p. I suppose that would have depended if Ma Jin/Wang won or lost.
Or who needed more WR pts in XD for WC - to be placed in whatever favourable ranking, I'm not good at counting the WR pts). In any case, I think the XD would end in 2 sets.:D

[LazyBuddy]

Ok, after all and all, I think many ppl who thinks its "fishy" because MJ needs to play 2 events.

The problem is, MJ and WXL won the WD in rather dominating fashion 21:9, 21:11. So, are you telling me that, the only chance for MAS WD to win, is to pray their opponents to play 2 events, then they will get some chance?

If you are the true champion, you have to be prepared to face your opponents with full strength, not after a 3 hours rubber match. If you want to be true WR#1, you need to win the game in a dominating way. Not whinning afterward after being trashed, and say, "god damn it, MJ suppose to be playing 2 events, and maddly tired now. Now, she's at full strength, so we are trashed instead..."

Oh man... :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

again chinese players are better actors/actresses compared to their court skilll thanks to LYB the great film director of badminton world :)


Sure sure...

If you so call local pros can not even beat up a group of actors and actress, who seems "better acting than playing", then that's enough to proof who you "local pros" standard is...;)

[LazyBuddy]

Seriously, let's grow up a bit. The world is not perfect, and there's no god standard being applied in anything. Let's face it, and suck it up. If you can not change others, at least change yourself.

When all the participate start in round 1, everyone has equal chance to be in the next round, to be in semi, and to be in final, and to be the champion. CHN does not have 90% participates in every single tournament. The problem is, CHN usually have the most survivals in the later stages. Why, not because they have so many brothers and sisters since qualification to guide them through, simply because most of the other participants were out in the earlier round.

Whether we can fix the system, or fix LYB, I doubt it. However, the easiest soluation is let other teams and players to be better. That's not too much to ask, and consider that's their career / full time job (to many) anyway. You can not change the world to be around you, but you can surely improve yourself to be a better survival candidate.

The best way to prevent CHN meet each other in quarter, semi or final? Eliminate them in the earlier round by your on-court racket skill, not the off court "sour grape" whinnings.

[madbad]

Ok, after all and all, I think many ppl who thinks its "fishy" because MJ needs to play 2 events.

The problem is, MJ and WXL won the WD in rather dominating fashion 21:9, 21:11. So, are you telling me that, the only chance for MAS WD to win, is to pray their opponents to play 2 events, then they will get some chance?

If you are the true champion, you have to be prepared to face your opponents with full strength, not after a 3 hours rubber match. If you want to be true WR#1, you need to win the game in a dominating way. Not whinning afterward after being trashed, and say, "god damn it, MJ suppose to be playing 2 events, and maddly tired now. Now, she's at full strength, so we are trashed instead..."

Oh man... :cool:

No problem there. For me, whether Ma Jin played a whole XD match or the suspiciously aborted one, it would have made little difference. The girl can flat out play. The WD match might have been (slightly) closer but it was apparent which team controlled it.

[eaglehelang]

Ok, after all and all, I think many ppl who thinks its "fishy" because MJ needs to play 2 events.

The problem is, MJ and WXL won the WD in rather dominating fashion 21:9, 21:11. So, are you telling me that, the only chance for MAS WD to win, is to pray their opponents to play 2 events, then they will get some chance?


Oh man... :cool:

Nope, that was not the main point, you assume so(again). As stated earlier by a China fan, many ppl PAW MJ/Wang to win the WD as it was WPT/CEH 3rd tourney. I didnt even think WPT/CEH could last till finals, looking at their history & 'trend'.

The focus was : when it's China vs China (which seldom happens to other countries when vs team mates), often got walkover, retired lah, until the point, if really happen, nobody believe. It was not the 1st time, and wouldnt be the last time.
And audiences at the stadium, who pay $$$$ to go watch, are getting more & more pissed off by each incident.

And WPT/CEH didnt whine at all abt their lost.

If looking at the other point of view, Team china is mighty enuf, need not resort to such "retirements" to rest their player. Play thru the match lor, like true champion, still young & strong mah. :p
Meaning they look highly at the "small sized" Msians (exactly how GD Sports describe them), who have not won any major titles and getting to aunty age, whom despite their ranking, is thought not to have an inkling of chance vs top WD pairs.

Oh yeah, we all not players, everyone just wants to see good exciting baddy played. Till the next round of walkovers & retirements.

[madbad]

.... who have not won any major titles and getting to aunty age

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D. FUUUUUUUNNNYYYY

Yes, I have noticed some MAS fans starting to refer to them as Aunties lately. Does this make them the first "official" Aunties of MAS badminton then? BTW, you're up late.

[eaglehelang]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D. FUUUUUUUNNNYYYY

Yes, I have noticed some MAS fans starting to refer to them as Aunties lately. Does this make them the first "official" Aunties of MAS badminton then? BTW, you're up late.

Ceh, no lah. Zhou Mi or Zhang Ning (when she was still playing) also I dont call aunty. WPT/Chin only 28 & 27, having graduated to 30 yet.:D:p

Yeah, I'm a nite eagle, got work to do. And waiting for modious's download to finish. So, disturb2 LazyBuddy a while, maybe by now he :mad: with me, hehe.

[cooler]

If looking at the other point of view, Team china is mighty enuf, need not resort to such "retirements" to rest their player. Play thru the match lor, like true champion, still young & strong mah. :p
Meaning they look highly at the "small sized" Msians (exactly how GD Sports describe them), who have not won any major titles and getting to aunty age, whom despite their ranking, is thought not to have an inkling of chance vs top WD pairs.

Oh yeah, we all not players, everyone just wants to see good exciting baddy played. Till the next round of walkovers & retirements.


*cough* :D
I wouldn't call MD final kkk/tbh vs Gan/Tan...errr...exciting. Done in 21 mins.
Unforce errors galore. Was that match fixed???

Even the aborted match between MJ/Zhengbo vs chenXu/ZY lasted for 15mins. Sorry for the lost 6 mins but i think the 15 mins of partial XD final was more exciting than the 21 mins full match of the MD final.:p

[cheeyf]

Nope, that was not the main point, you assume so(again). As stated earlier by a China fan, many ppl PAW MJ/Wang to win the WD as it was WPT/CEH 3rd tourney. I didnt even think WPT/CEH could last till finals, looking at their history & 'trend'.

The focus was : when it's China vs China (which seldom happens to other countries when vs team mates), often got walkover, retired lah, until the point, if really happen, nobody believe. It was not the 1st time, and wouldnt be the last time.
And audiences at the stadium, who pay $$$$ to go watch, are getting more & more pissed off by each incident.

And WPT/CEH didnt whine at all abt their lost.

If looking at the other point of view, Team china is mighty enuf, need not resort to such "retirements" to rest their player. Play thru the match lor, like true champion, still young & strong mah. :p
Meaning they look highly at the "small sized" Msians (exactly how GD Sports describe them), who have not won any major titles and getting to aunty age, whom despite their ranking, is thought not to have an inkling of chance vs top WD pairs.

Oh yeah, we all not players, everyone just wants to see good exciting baddy played. Till the next round of walkovers & retirements.

agree with eagle.hehe, wpt/ceh accept their defeat gracefully n say will learn from their mistake. tat is d characteristic of a true champ. whether chn injury is fake or not, i tink they will limit d xd to 2sets oso if zyl not injured. dont understand those people who only supports players when they win n trashed them when they lost. so sporting ah! haha. btw who would thought wpt/ceh will win indo open convincingly but they have prove that to us :cool: n yet most expect them to win mas gp after 2 consecutive tourney? lol

[cooler]

agree with eagle.hehe, wpt/ceh accept their defeat gracefully n say will learn from their mistake. tat is d characteristic of a true champ. whether chn injury is fake or not, i tink they will limit d xd to 2sets oso if zyl not injured. dont inderstand those ppl who only supports players when they win n trashed them when they lost. so sporting ah! haha. btw who would thought wpt/ceh will win indo open convincingly but they have prove that to us :cool:ya, my PAW game of INA open was terrible, i wasted so many paw point from repeatingly pawing against the aunties:( but that didn't stop me from keep pawing against them in the MAS Open:D

[madbad]

Ceh, no lah. Zhou Mi or Zhang Ning (when she was still playing) also I dont call aunty. WPT/Chin only 28 & 27, having graduated to 30 yet.:D:p

Yeah, I'm a nite eagle, got work to do. And waiting for modious's download to finish. So, disturb2 LazyBuddy a while, maybe by now he :mad: with me, hehe.

That's why you said "approaching" Aunty age. :D

Stay up an hour more and you can watch the Euro U-21 Final ENG v GER :D

[limsy]

haha,learn from mistake eh?cheeyf,how many times already?:rolleyes:

[LazyBuddy]

The focus was : when it's China vs China (which seldom happens to other countries when vs team mates), often got walkover, retired lah, until the point, if really happen, nobody believe. It was not the 1st time, and wouldnt be the last time.
And audiences at the stadium, who pay $$$$ to go watch, are getting more & more pissed off by each incident.

And WPT/CEH didnt whine at all abt their lost.
.

I did not say WPT/CEH whine, I was referring the fans whinning.

CHN always have a chance to reach "team match" vs. other teams hardly get such chance. It's same as many ppl blame "Most broken racket are Yonex". The problem is, why there are always CHN vs. CHN matches? Because they are good enough to get there to begin with. Why there are a lot Yonex rackets broken being observed? Because many people used Yonex than others. Please, let's straighten out which is the cause, which is the result 1st.

The correct cause is "CHN players are good and consistent overall", the result is "they meet each other in semi or final more often". It's not because they "always meet each other" then, "they appear in semi or final".

And last, please stop drag the fans into the equation. Let me ask you, say you paid $50 for a boxing match. You are excited, and hope for a 12 round see saw match. Then, it's a 1st round KO, or 2 min injury. What you will do? Ask for a refund?

Say you paied $100 for a NBA or MLB, or NFL game, etc. You are expecting to see players like MJ, Kobe, LBJ type. However, it's a blowout game, and half of the game features no name rookies and benches? What you are going to do? Ask for a refund? Or, say LBJ played 2 minutes, and called a night (claiming injury, fatigue, pissed off, fouled out, etc), are you going to claim your refund?

Then on the other side, say you used very little $$$ for a qualification round or 1st round visit. However, you spotted a hard fight 3 hr rubber set match. So, should the organizer come back to charge you more, because, you definitely got "more than you paid"? Of course, you refuse, and you said, because of my own luck... Then, why you blame the game turn out not as excited or below your expectation then? Don't you think it goes either way?

If like you said, you suspect a "bad record" for certain matches, no one forced you to purchase the final ticket. You can surely only purchase quarter or semi tickets, with much lower prices and "more excitement".

[RedShuttle]

I think cheeyf got it right. That was no fake injury. At worst, the one game rule was in effect.

Everything was set for the WC. The participation in MAS GP was more a goodwill gesture than anything else. There was no need to pull anything else, if there was any plan at all.

[jasonmarc]

Ok, after all and all, I think many ppl who thinks its "fishy" because MJ needs to play 2 events.

The problem is, MJ and WXL won the WD in rather dominating fashion 21:9, 21:11. So, are you telling me that, the only chance for MAS WD to win, is to pray their opponents to play 2 events, then they will get some chance?

If you are the true champion, you have to be prepared to face your opponents with full strength, not after a 3 hours rubber match. If you want to be true WR#1, you need to win the game in a dominating way. Not whinning afterward after being trashed, and say, "god damn it, MJ suppose to be playing 2 events, and maddly tired now. Now, she's at full strength, so we are trashed instead..."

Oh man... :cool:

Oh...Lazzybuddy,...What those fans in the stadium complaining is the Chn repeatly fixxing the match.....not because CEH/WPT lost to MJ/WXL ! The fans pay money to watch good and genuine badminton matches and suddently a injury ruined their mood and this was not the first time ........from the chn team. We can accept CEH/WPT's defeat, and that was expected when they have to faced MJ/WXL but at the same time, before the match started, some of us already predicted the chn team might repeat the 'fixing' thingy.......and it actually happened only after rreaching the score 5 - 5...:o......Thats dissapointed.....:(

They are not satisfied with chn team act, not the CEH/WPT lost.......

[eaglehelang]

I did not say WPT/CEH whine, I was referring the fans whinning.

CHN always have a chance to reach "team match" vs. other teams hardly get such chance. It's same as many ppl blame "Most broken racket are Yonex". The problem is, why there are always CHN vs. CHN matches?

You still dont get it. Just calculate the % of CHina vs CHina matches, how many walkovers, retirements the past 2 years.
Then calculate for other countries, when it's country A vs Country A players, what is the % of them retiring/walkover. Quite obvious the result.

I can recall only 1 Msia vs Msia(international tourney) injury retirement in past 2 years, CTF/LWW vs KKK/TBH, where one of the uncles was not well, retired aft 1st set.
This Msia GP Gold alone had 2 injury retirements from China vs China, and there were more Msia vs Msia matches.

As jasonmarc pointed out to you, it's not a matter of genuine injury, but match fixing - player not injured/sick but retired/walkover. It may not be the case here, but nobody believe anymore. It was predicted bf the match started, we hope it wouldnt happen, haiseh, really happen, so predictable.

This issue has been debated for years, long before I join BC, some of the comments, much more ehem... interesting than mine.
This issue has even been featured in the press bf. Some "well connected" BC members went as far to ask team China abt it.

Whining abt WPT/CEH lost? aiyoo, they lose, normal lah, if they win abnormal. They're only "little 1.62 /1.63 cm" Msians vs mighty China :D

Anyway, each person to one's opinion. If you say fans whining, then next time you give reason CHina player lose, we can say you whining in reply, haha.

[eaglehelang]

*cough* :D
I wouldn't call MD final kkk/tbh vs Gan/Tan...errr...exciting. Done in 21 mins.
Unforce errors galore. Was that match fixed???

:p

See, you all ask if the match was fixed can, we all complain, say we whining, tsk tsk :p:p. Gan/TBS are independent players, not under BAM anymore, they needed the win to get more sponsors. Fixed or not, at least they finish it mah.;) But they did seem blur2, like no confidence vs KKK/TBH, I cannot fathom how Mak/Wee Kiong can lose to them in Semis.

[Badmintan]

I don't think it is a question of legality. It's more ethical rather than anything.

If it's not illegal, by all means, China is going to do it, as it is their best interest to win. Of course, other countries will not be happy and cry wolf.

I think not only, China, Korea was accused of avoiding China in the semifinals in the 2008 Thomas Cup by losing to Malaysia. Then Korea went to meet China in the finals for their 1st trip to a Thomas cup finals.

As long as no rules stopping this kind of unethical tactics, history is going to repeat itself again and again and again.

[koo_fan]

It may not be the case here, but nobody believe anymore.

That's how i think of it either. Nobody want to believe anymore. No one can disprove all these claims but also, neither of us can give solid statements to back them up.

[ctjcad]

...
Anyway, each person to one's opinion. If you say fans whining, then next time you give reason CHina player lose, we can say you whining in reply, haha.
..that's what all the brouhahas in BC have been all about, aren't they??;)...Btw, i've missed Mr. Pemuda's voice...i mean, writings..;)

[suetyan]

..that's what all the brouhahas in BC have been all about, aren't they??;)...Btw, i've missed Mr. Pemuda's voice...i mean, writings..;)
I thought George told me he has been banned? :confused:

[ctjcad]

I thought George told me he has been banned? :confused:
..thus that void left by his absence..don't you miss him??;)

[volcom]

At least Pemuda talks good sense :)

[limsy]

At least Pemuda talks good sense :)

if good sense being banned,what left?:rolleyes:

[volcom]

if good sense being banned,what left?:rolleyes:

His good sense hurt quite a lot of people's feelings to be honest.

May his valiant spirit live on and be reborn in the future :cool:

[george@chongwei]

I thought George told me he has been banned? :confused:
are you sure i told you before??:rolleyes::mad:

[suetyan]

are you sure i told you before??:rolleyes::mad:
yes, I am very sure :p

[LazyBuddy]

You still dont get it. Just calculate the % of CHina vs CHina matches, how many walkovers, retirements the past 2 years.
Then calculate for other countries, when it's country A vs Country A players, what is the % of them retiring/walkover. Quite obvious the result.

I can recall only 1 Msia vs Msia(international tourney) injury retirement in past 2 years, CTF/LWW vs KKK/TBH, where one of the uncles was not well, retired aft 1st set.
This Msia GP Gold alone had 2 injury retirements from China vs China, and there were more Msia vs Msia matches.

As jasonmarc pointed out to you, it's not a matter of genuine injury, but match fixing - player not injured/sick but retired/walkover. It may not be the case here, but nobody believe anymore. It was predicted bf the match started, we hope it wouldnt happen, haiseh, really happen, so predictable.

This issue has been debated for years, long before I join BC, some of the comments, much more ehem... interesting than mine.
This issue has even been featured in the press bf. Some "well connected" BC members went as far to ask team China abt it.

Whining abt WPT/CEH lost? aiyoo, they lose, normal lah, if they win abnormal. They're only "little 1.62 /1.63 cm" Msians vs mighty China :D

Anyway, each person to one's opinion. If you say fans whining, then next time you give reason CHina player lose, we can say you whining in reply, haha.


Clearly, you did not get my point, either. :cool: I am not here to argue whether the injury is legit or not, because we do not have any proof. Whatever is done is already done, there's nothing much we can do about it.

What I was trying to say, is, we can only focus on the future, to improve ourselves (as we can not control others) to prevent it to happen. Improve ourselves means we need to train harder, train smarter, traing longer, and whatever it takes.

Whether we are whinning or crying or blaming or stating the 1000000% absolute truth, is NOT going to change the situation. Our mouth water will not wash LYB away. Our racket and legs should be the ones setting the tones, and effectively prevent the problem from the root. ;)

[eaglehelang]

..... Improve ourselves means we need to train harder, train smarter, traing longer, and whatever it takes.

Whether we are whinning or crying or blaming or stating the 1000000% absolute truth, is NOT going to change the situation. Our mouth water will not wash LYB away. Our racket and legs should be the ones setting the tones, and effectively prevent the problem from the root. ;)

Earlier post you said abt the true champion thingy + the above...
Aiyoo.....we are not pro players, 'improve ourselves' to be better by 'training harder',etc does not apply. It's not our racket and legs, since we're not pro players or connected to the associations. Even parents of players have no say.

That's why I (& others) mention from fans/audience point of view, of course lah the stadium audience is in the equation. At least when audiences complain, will have some bearing - Team china have less China vs China walkovers nowadays cos many have complained, at least they have more of 'playing till finish'.
Complain also, got objective one.

Haiseh, you're not in promotions/marketing line I suppose. If I say to the customer like what you suggested in the post abt ticket buying, bankrap already the organiser, tsk tsk.:p:p

You also have commented a lot2 abt certain other issues which our "mouth water" will not influence. Same2 lor.:D

PS: The Philipines Open have started, lets adjourn to 'watch' & waste our mouth water there, hehe.

[LazyBuddy]

Earlier post you said abt the true champion thingy + the above...
Aiyoo.....we are not pro players, 'improve ourselves' to be better by 'training harder',etc does not apply. It's not our racket and legs, since we're not pro players or connected to the associations. Even parents of players have no say.

That's why I (& others) mention from fans/audience point of view, of course lah the stadium audience is in the equation. At least when audiences complain, will have some bearing - Team china have less China vs China walkovers nowadays cos many have complained, at least they have more of 'playing till finish'.
Complain also, got objective one.

Haiseh, you're not in promotions/marketing line I suppose. If I say to the customer like what you suggested in the post abt ticket buying, bankrap already the organiser, tsk tsk.:p:p

You also have commented a lot2 abt certain other issues which our "mouth water" will not influence. Same2 lor.:D

PS: The Philipines Open have started, lets adjourn to 'watch' & waste our mouth water there, hehe.




In my post, "we" means players, coaches, organizations and fans as a group. Players can not do it by themselves, they need the guide, the support, and whatever else. Anyway, I think you get my point.

Seriously, you think LYB or any coaches does give a crap about fans complaining when their job is on the line? Remember, their higher piroity is to bag the medals, to extend their contracts, to get paid, instead of being a crowd pleaser or win "Mr. Niceguy" award. Tell me if coach like Sidek or Rexy or Li Mao given the chance of his own 2 top guns (or pairs) meet each other in a "grand slam" type of event (i.e. AE, OG, etc) semi final, will he force his players to play all out, fighting 30:29 for 3 rubber match, and well folded in the final due to stamina or injury? Well, on the day they got fired or being flamed by the media, can they say, "even though I lost in final, why ur freaking @$$ forgot I give u a true match in semi or quarter final ..." Well, let's see if the officials and fans going to buy that idea, and award him with the "moral victory"...

Ppl, please admit one thing. Other coaches (besides LYB) did not have too many "fixing", not because they have such higher moral standard. They might willing to do so 24/7, but never given a chance. Why? Because they and their players are not even good enough to get there to begin with. There's a big difference between "I will NOT do it" vs. "I do NOT even get a chance to do it". :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

I am not a fan of the Chinese badminton team because of LYB. He is too arrogant but I do support some individual players esp those who have left the national team.

Seriously, you think those players who left because their moral standard is higher than LYB, or they care about their fans more than LYB? :eek: The fact is, they are also thinking about themselves, and do not believe they can survive the team selection (internal practice, training, tournaments). :cool:

Sure, I think you will bring out players such as CH, ZM, etc, and claim they can still compete even after leave the naitonal team. Let me ask you, how old when they leave? 25 or beyond, at least. So, if they have such high "moral standard", why they need to wait for 25 or older to realize? They might not have the highest education, but surely you do not need to be close to 30 to figure out "oh, not good for the fans?" :rolleyes:

If you think such are heroes, then you are very wrong. They enjoyed all the benefits, why they are at the top. Once they are on the receiving end, and need to give somethig away, hey, jump out, and shout "freedom". Well, let me ask where you were 10 years ago? :o

If you really want your own freedom, quit the national team as soon as you realize something is wrong, which is surely does not take like 15 - 20 years. Train and support yourself like many western players, and then if you achived your goal, then you are my hero. Claim all the benefit and fame, then jumping out at the end, and suddenly start to use "moral standard" for whinning, well, give me a break... :(

[Oldhand]

For offensive language, panasonic_chai is banned.
For duplicate registration, that ban is permanent.

[hunghing]

For offensive language, panasonic_chai is banned.
For duplicate registration, that ban is permanent.

well done :D haha

[RedShuttle]

For offensive language, panasonic_chai is banned.
For duplicate registration, that ban is permanent.

Well done. Ill-wishing a player is absolutely disgusting.

[ctjcad]

His good sense hurt quite a lot of people's feelings to be honest.

May his valiant spirit live on and be reborn in the future :cool:
..maybe he'll come back as................................................ ........Pemudi (a gal) ;)

CHN's current domination is simply a Catch-22 situation..

[hunghing]

Well done. Ill-wishing a player is absolutely disgusting.


to gloat over ppl misfortunate is disgusting as well

[pjswift]

Oh...Lazzybuddy,...What those fans in the stadium complaining is the Chn repeatly fixxing the match.....not because CEH/WPT lost to MJ/WXL ! The fans pay money to watch good and genuine badminton matches and suddently a injury ruined their mood and this was not the first time ........from the chn team. We can accept CEH/WPT's defeat, and that was expected when they have to faced MJ/WXL but at the same time, before the match started, some of us already predicted the chn team might repeat the 'fixing' thingy.......and it actually happened only after rreaching the score 5 - 5...:o......Thats dissapointed.....:(

They are not satisfied with chn team act, not the CEH/WPT lost.......
I don't know about the MAS crowds in KL or Alor Star but I agree with you, the JB crowd is quite demanding and wants value for their money. Don't think it has anything to do with players' nationality. Koo/Tan got booed often when they did not seem to put in effort. And there are many CHN fans even among the Malaysians.

[hunghing]

hostile crowd i would say

[panasonic_chai]

hi all
sorry for all the trouble and bad feelings i caused earlier with my post
now im back with a lesson learnt hard.. will try to control my emotion in future.
pardon me :D
thanks oldhand and kwun

[jasonmarc]

hi all
sorry for all the trouble and bad feelings i caused earlier with my post
now im back with a lesson learnt hard.. will try to control my emotion in future.
pardon me :D
thanks oldhand and kwun

:D:D...U R REBORNED....WELCOME BACK.........

[jasonmarc]

hostile crowd i would say

No,...they are not....They applaused WSX and WX for their hard works on court........:p

They even cheer for MJ/ZB but not for ZYL/XC........during the prize giving ceremony............;)

The crowd was friendly i would say.............;)

[george@chongwei]

whadya think?;)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_2XC-qlUZsNQ/Skm_gV412eI/AAAAAAAACcM/iegjnYzgVVE/s400/IMG_9113.jpg

[RedShuttle]

ZYL was tententive at IO, likely already hampered by the same injury. I was concerned by her performance in the semi-final at IO and the final at IO more or less confirmed my suspicion. So I am comfortable that the injury was real.

Was it so serious that she absolutely cannot continue? Frankly, for a multiple title winner, a Gold GP title is not something that worths ending one's career on.

[huangkwokhau]

ZYL was tententive at IO, likely already hampered by the same injury. I was concerned by her performance in the semi-final at IO and the final at IO more or less confirmed my suspicion. So I am comfortable that the injury was real.

Was it so serious that she absolutely cannot continue? Frankly, for a multiple title winner, a Gold GP title is not something that worths ending one's career on.
Then in this case...just withdrew from tournament..as GOLD GP is nothing/not important..she should withdrew and focus on WC...
I was there during IO Open..I did not see any injury from ZYL as she had beaten ZYW/ZTT or semi..I do not know how you could conclude that she had injury.....Even the injured BCL still could win SO....:cool::cool:

[RedShuttle]

Then in this case...just withdrew from tournament..as GOLD GP is nothing/not important..she should withdrew and focus on WC...
I was there during IO Open..I did not see any injury from ZYL as she had beaten ZYW/ZTT or semi..I do not know how you could conclude that she had injury.....Even the injured BCL still could win SO....:cool::cool:
If people stay home with any discomfort, no one will be at work. If players withdraw for having any injury, no one will be at a tournament. In real life, it's a balancing act. You always weigh the risk against the benefit.

Looking back, it was a mistake not to withdraw. But XC/ZYL did not play at IO, the team may have decided to use MAS GP as the last warm up before WC.

Injury does not necessarily mean a broken leg. At IO, ZYL was less active and lacked the aggresion she used to have. CS was covering more of the court than before. It's subtle but quite noticable if you are familiar with their game.

[cheeyf]

whatever it is, i pity ZYL. i m sure she wants to win d mas gp too or at least wants a fair match but hav to listen to top management

[LazyBuddy]

Then in this case...just withdrew from tournament..as GOLD GP is nothing/not important..she should withdrew and focus on WC...

When CHN player withdraw from the final, some ppl say they are "acting", "no effort". When they withdraw from the earlier rounds, ppl say they "helping teammates", "team strategy". When they withdraw the entire tournament, ppl say they "not dare to participate", "not dare to drink boiling water", "LYB block xxx's entry"...

So, what they suppose to do then? :rolleyes: Just quit the sport, or simply re-build their own body to be "iron man"? :rolleyes:

[madbad]

When CHN player withdraw from the final, some ppl say they are "acting", "no effort". When they withdraw from the earlier rounds, ppl say they "helping teammates", "team strategy". When they withdraw the entire tournament, ppl say they "not dare to participate", "not dare to drink boiling water", "LYB block xxx's entry"...

So, what they suppose to do then? :rolleyes: Just quit the sport, or simply re-build their own body to be "iron man"? :rolleyes:

MUAHAHAHAHAHA!! It's working, it's working. LYB is getting confused. ;):p:D

[cooler]

When CHN player withdraw from the final, some ppl say they are "acting", "no effort". When they withdraw from the earlier rounds, ppl say they "helping teammates", "team strategy". When they withdraw the entire tournament, ppl say they "not dare to participate", "not dare to drink boiling water", "LYB block xxx's entry"...

So, what they suppose to do then? :rolleyes: Just quit the sport, or simply re-build their own body to be "iron man"? :rolleyes:LOL:D

...........

[huangkwokhau]

When CHN player withdraw from the final, some ppl say they are "acting", "no effort". When they withdraw from the earlier rounds, ppl say they "helping teammates", "team strategy". When they withdraw the entire tournament, ppl say they "not dare to participate", "not dare to drink boiling water", "LYB block xxx's entry"...

So, what they suppose to do then? :rolleyes: Just quit the sport, or simply re-build their own body to be "iron man"? :rolleyes:
As usual..you dikd not read REDSHUTTLE's statement...You can not say someone gets injured in IO...I was there..ZYL was not in jured at all.she may get injured during MAS GP, not IO..by saying that ZYL was injured during IO..he gave the excuses that ZYL lost in WD due to injury....got it?? ZYL loves going to player lounge all the time....playing games here and there....

Look at BCL..we knows he was injured...before his injury got worse..he withdrew from IO...
Thats reality...you have to admit that CHN did play tricks in the past....

As RED SHUTTLE and you said..: GP is not important....then...why should she go..she did take part SO and IO..why injured person should play 3 tournaments in a row..??? GWJ was sick then he withdrew from IO as well....
Pls do not make old excuses like before..:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[huangkwokhau]

If people stay home with any discomfort, no one will be at work. If players withdraw for having any injury, no one will be at a tournament. In real life, it's a balancing act. You always weigh the risk against the benefit.

Looking back, it was a mistake not to withdraw. But XC/ZYL did not play at IO, the team may have decided to use MAS GP as the last warm up before WC.

Injury does not necessarily mean a broken leg. At IO, ZYL was less active and lacked the aggresion she used to have. CS was covering more of the court than before. It's subtle but quite noticable if you are familiar with their game.
CHN team forgot to register XC/ZYL at IO....I did ask CHN team manager why XC/ZYL did not play XD..he said that they forgot...
As far as I know...it is not noticeable that ZYL was getting injury during IO....

[limsy]

As usual..you dikd not read REDSHUTTLE's statement...You can not say someone gets injured in IO...I was there..ZYL was not in jured at all.she may get injured during MAS GP, not IO..by saying that ZYL was injured during IO..he gave the excuses that ZYL lost in WD due to injury....got it?? ZYL loves going to player lounge all the time....playing games here and there....

Look at BCL..we knows he was injured...before his injury got worse..he withdrew from IO...
Thats reality...you have to admit that CHN did play tricks in the past....

As RED SHUTTLE and you said..: GP is not important....then...why should she go..she did take part SO and IO..why injured person should play 3 tournaments in a row..??? GWJ was sick then he withdrew from IO as well....
Pls do not make old excuses like before..:rolleyes::rolleyes:
yes
totally agree
just admit bravely when u play trick
already done trick(bad+shame)+still dont want to admit(bad+shame)=worse+(shame^infinity);)

[volcom]

yes
totally agree
just admit bravely when u play trick
already done trick(bad+shame)+still dont want to admit(bad+shame)=worse+(shame^infinity);)
How the hell can you sqaure something by infinity

[jasonmarc]

Then in this case...just withdrew from tournament..as GOLD GP is nothing/not important..she should withdrew and focus on WC...
I was there during IO Open..I did not see any injury from ZYL as she had beaten ZYW/ZTT or semi..I do not know how you could conclude that she had injury.....Even the injured BCL still could win SO....:cool::cool:

Yes, i was there during the SF match...they played very well against Vita/Hendra AG......even during the warming up on court before XD final started, she was also looked very active and running fast on court.........;)

I m doubt that she was injured during INA Open......it was Chen Shu who were playing badly during INA Open WD final,....ZYL were trying hard to cover CS.......:confused::confused:

[jasonmarc]

whatever it is, i pity ZYL. i m sure she wants to win d mas gp too or at least wants a fair match but hav to listen to top management

Yes,....pity......like i pity CJ.............:crying::crying:

[RedShuttle]

I m doubt that she was injured during INA Open......it was Chen Shu who were playing badly during INA Open WD final,....ZYL were trying hard to cover CS.......:confused::confused:
Like many athletes, ZYL has her chronic injury. She wears a knee support since the first time I watched her play at Japan Open last year. It is not about getting injured, but about whether the injury flares up to the point of affecting performance significantly. Case in point, LCW just destroyed CL, even with a back injury. Was LCW lying about having the injury? I don't think so.

ZYL is the dominant player of that pair. She always does more the Cheng Shu. At IO, CS was carrying more than her usual share to the point that the two often got into each other's way. Injury to ZYL may be the explanation, or may be not. I have no inside information, just a guess.

As the old saying goes, it does not matter that you don't know the goods, you just have to compare them. Just check out how they played in other tournaments and you will see.

Sheesh, why does a badminton forum get so political?

[volcom]

Like many athletes, ZYL has her chronic injury. She wears a knee support since the first time I watched her play at Japan Open last year. It is not about getting injured, but about whether the injury flares up to the point of affecting performance significantly. Case in point, LCW just destroyed CL, even with a back injury. Was LCW lying about having the injury? I don't think so.

ZYL is the dominant player of that pair. She always does more the Cheng Shu. At IO, CS was carrying more than her usual share to the point that the two often got into each other's way. Injury to ZYL may be the explanation, or may be not. I have no inside information, just a guess.

As the old saying goes, it does not matter that you don't know the goods, you just have to compare them. Just check out how they played in other tournaments and you will see.

Sheesh, why does a badminton forum get so political?

Unfortunately cos it's China...

[george@chongwei]

Unfortunately cos it's China...
Rethink again. Whether it's just China in this case?;)

[Jonc108]

I don't think it is a question of legality. It's more ethical rather than anything.

If it's not illegal, by all means, China is going to do it, as it is their best interest to win. Of course, other countries will not be happy and cry wolf.

I think not only, China, Korea was accused of avoiding China in the semifinals in the 2008 Thomas Cup by losing to Malaysia. Then Korea went to meet China in the finals for their 1st trip to a Thomas cup finals.

As long as no rules stopping this kind of unethical tactics, history is going to repeat itself again and again and again.

That's the point.

Lazybuddy, really appreciate your points and the gut to debate with "the crowd"... yet don't think your point would taken by "the crowd", as they are too obsessive in playing victim of Team China's team strategy...

In fact, China still treat badminton as a "team" sport rather than individual sport... as long as they have more capable players than other teams, this legal thing would happen again and again... so agree with your argument that the only way that "the crowd" could satisfy themself is to have other teams stronger and prevent too many occassions of Chineses' matches.

[george@chongwei]

The 'new' member and the creator if this thread, polis, had just posted 2 posts in this thread;):rolleyes:
hmmm...maybe he can tell us more about this..:cool:

[LazyBuddy]

CHN team forgot to register XC/ZYL at IO....I did ask CHN team manager why XC/ZYL did not play XD..he said that they forgot...
As far as I know...it is not noticeable that ZYL was getting injury during IO....


I seriously do not really care about what's the reason that XC/ZYL did not play IO, and I even do not really care what's the real reason cause ZYL to withdraw the final XD match.

I made my point very clear in the earlier posts already, whether they play tricks, or simply you think they play tricks, the best way to solve the problem is not to flame them here. The best way is to totally take away their chances to even think about a trick: eliminate them in the earlier rounds with the racket skill.

As long as other teams step up, and make them sweat, eliminate them in earlier round, LYB will run out of tricks automatically. On the other side, you can win the national debating championship, and beat poor LB to death here, LYB still does not give a crap. :D

[LazyBuddy]

I don't think it is a question of legality. It's more ethical rather than anything.

If it's not illegal, by all means, China is going to do it, as it is their best interest to win. Of course, other countries will not be happy and cry wolf.

When fans entering the gym, their pupose is to "have some fun and excitement". When players and coaches entering the gym, they are coming to work, to fight, to protect their career. That's totally different to begin with.

The fans only care about "now", which is about an hour or so. They want all the players to fight to death, and who care about what happen tomorrow. The players and coaches usually have a much longer time period to over-see, because that's their career. If the player/coach makes a decision which is better for a long run overall, they have their rights to do so.

In any major sports, once the playoff seeds are locked or a game already in "blow out" stage, you hardly see all-star players playing anymore (they even do not bother to claim an injury, etc), usually the benches or rookies taking the action. That's why we call such time "garbage" time. Why? Us fans paid the same amount, why I can not watch Kobe or LBJ, but whole bunch of no names? Because that's coach / players' decision, and we need to respect that.

So, maybe we should ask Kobe or LBJ return say 20% of their salaries, because they clearly did not play all out of all 48 minutes of each game. ;)

[huangkwokhau]

I seriously do not really care about what's the reason that XC/ZYL did not play IO, and I even do not really care what's the real reason cause ZYL to withdraw the final XD match.

I made my point very clear in the earlier posts already, whether they play tricks, or simply you think they play tricks, the best way to solve the problem is not to flame them here. The best way is to totally take away their chances to even think about a trick: eliminate them in the earlier rounds with the racket skill.

As long as other teams step up, and make them sweat, eliminate them in earlier round, LYB will run out of tricks automatically. On the other side, you can win the national debating championship, and beat poor LB to death here, LYB still does not give a crap. :D
Its i not the point....It is not about flaming..Redshuttle is guessing..I simply provided the information that I got why she did not play XD.....

If he can guess then other people can guess.....

[LazyBuddy]

Its i not the point....It is not about flaming..Redshuttle is guessing..I simply provided the information that I got why she did not play XD.....

If he can guess then other people can guess.....


What makes your information more accurate than others? Are you the doctor who actually examed ZYL? Unless it's an obvious open wound, even the doctors can not be so sure about the long term effect.

Just like Yao Ming's left foot injury. Even as of today, doctors notes showing it could be a few weeks, could be a few months, could be a season, or even end of career. So, if professional doctors can not be so sure when it comes to be sports related injury, what makes your information more reliable than others? I know you have connections here and there, but a lot of such are just speculations from some individuals just like anyone of us.

I've read some articles that many pro. athlete qualified for disability when they retire or close to retirement. Based on your logic (courtside observation during a match) So, I can say that's all fraud, as they just competed on the highest standard, and even crowded with world champion a few weeks / months ago. Then, suddenly, they are disabled for life?

[huangkwokhau]

What makes your information more accurate than others? Are you the doctor who actually examed ZYL? Unless it's an obvious open wound, even the doctors can not be so sure about the long term effect.

Just like Yao Ming's left foot injury. Even as of today, doctors notes showing it could be a few weeks, could be a few months, could be a season, or even end of career. So, if professional doctors can not be so sure when it comes to be sports related injury, what makes your information more reliable than others? I know you have connections here and there, but a lot of such are just speculations from some individuals just like anyone of us.

I've read some articles that many pro. athlete qualified for disability when they retire or close to retirement. Based on your logic (courtside observation during a match) So, I can say that's all fraud, as they just competed on the highest standard, and even crowded with world champion a few weeks / months ago. Then, suddenly, they are disabled for life?
I guess CHN team manager is a liar then ....:rolleyes:..whats wrong if he said that CHN badminton forgot to register her...? should I not believe him? so what you make sure that you know everything.....that we did not know???
Again...what make your or his information is more relaible than others too?
I guess if CHN team 's comment cant be trusted then....you can not blame others in this case....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[eaglehelang]

In my post, "we" means players, coaches, organizations and fans as a group. Players can not do it by themselves, they need the guide, the support, and whatever else. Anyway, I think you get my point.

. :cool:
We do not have a say in the way things are run anyway, even we all from taxpaying citizens of 'major' countries - we are not decision makers -all the stuff you suggested only the big shots,officials, coaches, players can do, not us.
To find new talents, be stronger baddy nation & all that, aiyooo...everyone know must do, but not something that fans can actually do abt it.
Like you said, we cannot control what others do mah, "wash mouth" mah, so I reply back lah. :p;)

It's Team China's habit/trend to give walkover, retirements - in whatever stages of tournament(since you mention more of semi, finals). As far as I'm concerned, whether they're major or not major power in baddy, they will continue to do so. A habit is a habit.I know you dont agree with this view, never mind.

If Msia, if there's any whiff of hanky panky, all hell will break loose, seriously. If dont win, they lose their jobs as coaches, so what? They can go to other countries. But anything errrrrr unethical, damaged reputation forever. And I know you dont agree with this view, never mind, no need rebute, I get your point.

For the "audience in the stadium" part, well, that part at least we the lowly general public have some say lah, can do something mah. I for sure wouldnt say to fans/customer : "You dont like it, then dont watch lah" like so high & mighty.

There've been changes in trend in terms of Team China's PR compared to 1.5 yrs ago, so, certain forces are at work.- I dont think you share this view also, so never mind also, no need rebute.


You say2 abt as if Team china always get it, you all always critise abt LCW or others can. SAME comments some more, when withdraw, say sacred to meet LD. When lose give reason not well/injured, say give excuse. In reply, people say2 critise back lah.(told you I'll say back in reply, hehe, dont get angry) :D:D

[LazyBuddy]

I guess CHN team manager is a liar then ....:rolleyes:..whats wrong if he said that CHN badminton forgot to register her...? should I not believe him? so what you make sure that you know everything.....that we did not know???
Again...what make your or his information is more relaible than others too?
I guess if CHN team 's comment cant be trusted then....you can not blame others in this case....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I never said my information / belief is more accurate than yours. But you are the one always give us the impression of "god knows".

I do enjoy a lot of good information you brough here, and enjoy reading the side news as well. However, I do not like the way when you argue, you always try to educate us of "hey, I chat with xxx in the cafe, so i know all"

I give your credit for all the "extra" you bring to the site, but I can only consider those as gossip, for fun reading only. I do not consider such and such as solid proof, when you try to use it to judge and determine other ppl's personality or professional result such as injuries.

[LazyBuddy]

I guess CHN team manager is a liar then ....:rolleyes:..whats wrong if he said that CHN badminton forgot to register her...? should I not believe him? so what you make sure that you know everything.....that we did not know???
Again...what make your or his information is more relaible than others too?
I guess if CHN team 's comment cant be trusted then....you can not blame others in this case....:rolleyes::rolleyes:


Why the CHN team manager has to report everything to you to begin with? Sure, as a buddy buddy, he might be able to chat with you here and there, but I do not think he will report every single details to you, such as every player's medical record or so, right? Remember, pieces of information from mouth to ears can be very well mis-interprated, be it intentionally or un-intentionally.

My friend told me this joke (or rather a scary story for him). Right after 911, he and a group of ppl went on travel. One of the person's name is Jack. As they are passing the security gate, he saw his friend went to the wrong line. So, he screamed toward him, "hi (or hey) jack"... Then, all of a sudden, he see security guards with machine guns and dogs chasing over...

So, you got it? A short piece of message without the full contain and intention can be very mis-leading...

[cooler]

I guess CHN team manager is a liar then ....:rolleyes:..whats wrong if he said that CHN badminton forgot to register her...? should I not believe him? so what you make sure that you know everything.....that we did not know???
Again...what make your or his information is more relaible than others too?
I guess if CHN team 's comment cant be trusted then....you can not blame others in this case....:rolleyes::rolleyes:that bring me to ask this question, why do u believe in one chinese (the CHN team manager) but not another chinese (ZYL)? Isn't it the whole thread is about the alleged trickery of the CHN team management? Why do u trust CHN team management's words so much? I'm confused.

[LazyBuddy]

that bring me to ask this question, why do u believe in one chinese (the CHN team manager) but not another chinese (ZYL)? Isn't it the whole thread is about the alleged trickery of the CHN team management? Why do u trust CHN team management's words so much? I'm confused.

Why? Because everyone has the "filter" in their mind. We always tend to "filter" out the pieces that's not favorable for ourselves, and only "release" the ones in favor.

That's why I do not trust any gossip unless there's soild proof to back it up. I can simply quote anyone's word and make it a bold line to help me to debate. Or worse, I can simply make up some story, and tell you, "joe doe told me this and that", how you going to prove that? :rolleyes:

[ctjcad]

..about whether to take the inside info on ZYL with a grain of salt or as is, i guess, to each his or her own.:cool:

[cooler]

..about whether to take the inside info on ZYL with a grain of salt or as is, i guess, to each his or her own.:cool:now we're back to square one:D

[viver]

Wow, again a heated debate on China's tactics?

I have not read all the postings, isn't this the WD finals being discussed? I don't see any reason to fake injury during a final match, as many will say to give the team mates more rest and better prepared against the opponents. But if this is the finals, China already guaranteed the first place - any reason why still need to give up the match?

[huangkwokhau]

that bring me to ask this question, why do u believe in one chinese (the CHN team manager) but not another chinese (ZYL)? Isn't it the whole thread is about the alleged trickery of the CHN team management? Why do u trust CHN team management's words so much? I'm confused.
U did not read whole post by Redshuttle...He said that ZYL was injured from IO thats why ZYL was not playing XD...my point was ZYL may get injured during MAS GP, not during IO...and the reason why she did not play XD...

[madbad]

Wow, again a heated debate on China's tactics?

I have not read all the postings, isn't this the WD finals being discussed? I don't see any reason to fake injury during a final match, as many will say to give the team mates more rest and better prepared against the opponents. But if this is the finals, China already guaranteed the first place - any reason why still need to give up the match?

Actually, we're beyond the fake injury thing (I am at least). The point is whether it's fake or not, because of CHN's track record in "fixing" matches, nobody believes it. It's a guilty by association thing, like all big home run hitters in MLB are now viewed with suspicion.

It's unfortunate for the player who has to suffer this association because of team policy.

[ctjcad]

Wow, again a heated debate on China's tactics?

I have not read all the postings, isn't this the WD finals being discussed? I don't see any reason to fake injury during a final match, as many will say to give the team mates more rest and better prepared against the opponents. But if this is the finals, China already guaranteed the first place - any reason why still need to give up the match?
..tis supposed to be the XD (Mixed Doubles) Final match..
But since one of the participants (ZYL) also played in the WD event, the previous week @ the Indonesia Open, then of course, it seems to propagate everything else...What with CHN's stigma of "match fixing" et al..Typical tit-for-tat, non-CHN fans accusing CHN team of this & that brouhaha which seems to appear in almost every other tourneys lah..:p
Btw, a read from the beginning of this thread is preferred..;)

[huangkwokhau]

Why? Because everyone has the "filter" in their mind. We always tend to "filter" out the pieces that's not favorable for ourselves, and only "release" the ones in favor.

That's why I do not trust any gossip unless there's soild proof to back it up. I can simply quote anyone's word and make it a bold line to help me to debate. Or worse, I can simply make up some story, and tell you, "joe doe told me this and that", how you going to prove that? :rolleyes:
Thats correct..you tend to " filter" information as well...why dont you correct Redshuttle since he was so sure that ZYL got injured from IO..as you said that none of us is a doctor...how did you know she was injured during IO..as I have said that she might get injured during MAS GP, not IO...

From your debate..as always..you never stand up and I do not see you criticize your own CHN fans either when they make up their story...

Just look at LCW' s statement that he was not ready for SO..you and hardcore CHN fans did not believe what he said...same thing that you FILTER info to favour your own debate....;);)

You never go to tournament..how are you going to prove either that LWC was correct or getting food poisoned....you guys claimed that he was not careful..blah..blah..
In this case, ZYL was not careful either...if she was injured during IO...then why bother to play MAS GP as she has played 2 events...??:rolleyes::rolleyes: your argument is that MAS GP is not important and why risking her career...I simply said" then withdrew...."..you seem so smart to assume everything..

[pjswift]

Like many athletes, ZYL has her chronic injury. She wears a knee support since the first time I watched her play at Japan Open last year. It is not about getting injured, but about whether the injury flares up to the point of affecting performance significantly. Case in point, LCW just destroyed CL, even with a back injury. Was LCW lying about having the injury? I don't think so.

ZYL is the dominant player of that pair. She always does more the Cheng Shu. At IO, CS was carrying more than her usual share to the point that the two often got into each other's way. Injury to ZYL may be the explanation, or may be not. I have no inside information, just a guess.

As the old saying goes, it does not matter that you don't know the goods, you just have to compare them. Just check out how they played in other tournaments and you will see.

Sheesh, why does a badminton forum get so political?
Actually no one knew LCW was playing with a slight back injury until he revealed it after the finals. He said he picked that up during the first match but now he's smart enough to keep quiet about it and not inadvertently tip off his next 5 opponents about his possible vulnerability.
We were wondering why LCW was playing badminton in such a hurry. He said he had to as a G3 could aggravate the minor injury. It's interesting how LCW can win carrying a minor injury. That happened in FO07? as well when he returned shots with such speed, shocking both CJ and BCL because they were not trained for that.
My guess is the minor injury forced LCW to focus on finishing a match fast.That means he has to put in extra efforts to mentally visualise his match and prepare in a more comprehensive manner. Staying focussed is the key to winning or losing. Maybe LCW should imagine he's slightly injured as this seems to sharpen his concentration.

At IO, CS was targetted as the weaker link by MAS WD (reported in MAS press), giving the impression of carrying more than her usual share. ZYL was thus underemployed and in the way, leading to confusion with CS that is not often seen in CHN WD.

[volcom]

Actually no one knew LCW was playing with a slight back injury until he revealed it after the finals. He said he picked that up during the first match but now he's smart enough to keep quiet about it and not inadvertently tip off his next 5 opponents about his possible vulnerability.
We were wondering why LCW was playing badminton in such a hurry. He said he had to as a G3 could aggravate the minor injury. It's interesting how LCW can win carrying a minor injury. That happened in FO07? as well when he returned shots with such speed, shocking both CJ and BCL because they were not trained for that.
My guess is the minor injury forced LCW to focus on finishing a match fast.That means he has to put in extra efforts to mentally visualise his match and prepare in a more comprehensive manner. Staying focussed is the key to winning or losing. Maybe LCW should imagine he's slightly injured as this seems to sharpen his concentration.

At IO, CS was targetted as the weaker link by MAS WD (reported in MAS press), giving the impression of carrying more than her usual share. ZYL was thus underemployed and in the way, leading to confusion with CS that is not often seen in CHN WD.

Good idea, maybe then he can beat LD with his hurrying tactics and using all his energy in 2 games, and try and attack every rally.
Like in Sudirman Cup.

[viver]

Actually, we're beyond the fake injury thing (I am at least). The point is whether it's fake or not, because of CHN's track record in "fixing" matches, nobody believes it. It's a guilty by association thing, like all big home run hitters in MLB are now viewed with suspicion.

It's unfortunate for the player who has to suffer this association because of team policy.

I see. And I think the best way is to beat them during the competitions and not allow them to 'fix' the matches.

[viver]

..tis supposed to be the XD (Mixed Doubles) Final match..
But since one of the participants (ZYL) also played in the WD event, the previous week @ the Indonesia Open, then of course, it seems to propagate everything else...What with CHN's stigma of "match fixing" et al..Typical tit-for-tat, non-CHN fans accusing CHN team of this & that brouhaha which seems to appear in almost every other tourneys lah..:p
Btw, a read from the beginning of this thread is preferred..;)

Thank you for correcting. It should be a good idea to read all postings, but it would take too long and leave no time for me to read other threads.. :p;)

[ctjcad]

I see. And I think the best way is to beat them during the competitions and not allow them to 'fix' the matches.
.exactly what LazyBuddy has been preaching in this thread as well as in many other threads..
But then if the other teams fail and we get another CHN vs. CHN match, and the result is either a W/O or retire, then we'll go back to this same discussion..

[madbad]

I see. And I think the best way is to beat them during the competitions and not allow them to 'fix' the matches.

How are you? Haven't seen you for a while.

Not allowing CHN or anyone for that matter, to legally fix matches is easier said than done. There are many ways around that which may not necessarily can be proven.

[ctjcad]

..viver meant: by beating the CHN team/player(s), the CHN team won't get a chance to "fix" the matches. Not necessarily to not allow the CHN team to "fix" the matches.

[koo_fan]

I see. And I think the best way is to beat them during the competitions and not allow them to 'fix' the matches.

Sure. That's the best idea. However, be reminded that fans do not complaining merely because it's China. Korea might, in future, be in the same position as China now and will still practice the match fixing. Trust me, ppl will still complaining.
I am not sure whether or not it was true, but i couldn't believe anymore. That's the problem. And i am sure if the fans stay as one and say no to match fixing, it will be influential, no matter how small the chance is.

[ctjcad]

..I think the only 2 ways to really minimize or even eliminate this "match fixing" problem are:
1) To have limited entries per country/nation in individual tourneys, which might not be accepted by some countries/nations. Then have the players play in different halves, quadrants and not have them meet at least the Semifinals Rd.
or
2) To finally have the players play as professionals, just like tennis. No more playing & representing country/nation/teams etc. They'll be the ones collecting and earning that paycheck.

[madbad]

..I think the only 2 ways to really minimize or even eliminate this "match fixing" problem are:
1) To have limited entries per country/nation in individual tourneys, which might not be accepted by some countries/nations. Then have the players play in different halves, quadrants and not have them meet at least the Semifinals Rd.
or
2) To finally have the players play as professionals, just like tennis. No more playing & representing country/nation/teams etc. They'll be the ones collecting and earning that paycheck.

I think option 2 is the way to go. I think it would be a natural progression towards true "open" badminton anyway. However for this to happen, there needs to be a lot more prize $$ to justify a player turning pro.

[cooler]

I think option 2 is the way to go. I think it would be a natural progression towards true "open" badminton anyway. However for this to happen, there needs to be a lot more prize $$ to justify a player turning pro.
easier said than done.
china dominating in badminton because the money and training are mostly funded by the gov't. Even TH, a professional now, was trained with gov't money. If u look at the top badminton countries, their top players are gov't supported. Look at how far canadian pros have achieved with their own money;)

[madbad]

easier said than done.
china dominating in badminton because the money and training are mostly funded by the gov't. Even TH, a professional now, was trained with gov't money. If u look at the top badminton countries, their top players are gov't supported. Look at how far canadian pros have achieved with their own money;)

It's certainly going to take time and a good long term plan has to be formulated for pro badminton to succeed. Sooner or later players will have to take the plunge and step away from the govt funded system. But this will only happen if there is sufficient financial security to support such a career.

What we need is a philanthropist to get the ball rolling:D

[ctjcad]

...
If u look at the top badminton countries, their top players are gov't supported. Look at how far canadian pros have achieved with their own money;)

...
But this will only happen if there is sufficient financial security to support such a career.

What we need is a philanthropist to get the ball rolling:D
..perhaps one of the reasons why badminton tends to be supported by govt. fund is because simply, there is just not enough cash or tantalizing money for a prospective baddy player to go after..

I can imagine what the reaction will be when that day, when a US$1.5mil prize money for a MS title is finally offered & become a norm for every single major tourneys..

We need the major sponsors to chip in...hey, how abt Li-Ning chipping in & start sponsoring $500,000 tourneys??..;)

Badminton needs to be turned away from a Socialism-type sport into a Capitalism-type sport..;):cool:

Anyway, we've gone into another route of discussion..:p

[madbad]

..perhaps one of the reasons why badminton tends to be supported by govt. fund is because simply, there is just not enough cash or tantalizing money for a prospective baddy player to go after..

I can imagine what the reaction will be when that day, when a US$1.5mil prize money for a MS title is finally offered & become a norm for every single major tourneys..

We need the major sponsors to chip in...hey, how abt Li-Ning chipping in & start sponsoring $500,000 tourneys??..;)

Badminton needs to be turned away from a Socialism-type sport into a Capitalism-type sport..;):cool:

Anyway, we've gone into another route of discussion..:p

Do you know if there has been a thread about this aspect of the sport?

[ctjcad]

..which aspect of the sport??..abt popularizing it or making it a true-professional type sport?? if i recall, i think there are a few related to that..

[LazyBuddy]

Thats correct..you tend to " filter" information as well...why dont you correct Redshuttle since he was so sure that ZYL got injured from IO..as you said that none of us is a doctor...how did you know she was injured during IO..as I have said that she might get injured during MAS GP, not IO...

From your debate..as always..you never stand up and I do not see you criticize your own CHN fans either when they make up their story...

Just look at LCW' s statement that he was not ready for SO..you and hardcore CHN fans did not believe what he said...same thing that you FILTER info to favour your own debate....;);)

You never go to tournament..how are you going to prove either that LWC was correct or getting food poisoned....you guys claimed that he was not careful..blah..blah..
In this case, ZYL was not careful either...if she was injured during IO...then why bother to play MAS GP as she has played 2 events...??:rolleyes::rolleyes: your argument is that MAS GP is not important and why risking her career...I simply said" then withdrew...."..you seem so smart to assume everything..


Of course I "filter", because I do have a thing call brain. :D

The difference is, when I "filter", I tryied to express that from my own point of view, and I made it very clear by saying, "i think", or "i believe". I tried to say what I believe is reasonable. I do not have to pressure others, by borrowing "xxx manager" or "some other players" name every single time.

God, do you really have to borrow names each time to win a debate? Can you use your own observation to back up your own point, instead of throwing some names, which no one seriously know that's really the case or not.

Hey, I can say I meet the president every single day, and tell you here and there simply with some "quote" god knows who said or I made up. Do you have to swallow every single word from me then? :cool:

Seriously, many ppl here even question LYB and other high ranking CHN team official's wording every single time. What make your "no name" manager's quote become so reliable?

[LazyBuddy]

.exactly what LazyBuddy has been preaching in this thread as well as in many other threads..
But then if the other teams fail and we get another CHN vs. CHN match, and the result is either a W/O or retire, then we'll go back to this same discussion..


If we only scratch the surface each time, we will never touch the root. Seriously, anyone think LYB will ever loss sleep, even if he's reading the thread? :rolleyes:

If you ever facing a problem, face it, and try to fix it. Just blame this, whinning about that surely will just let the history repeat itself. :o

[LazyBuddy]

..I think the only 2 ways to really minimize or even eliminate this "match fixing" problem are:
1) To have limited entries per country/nation in individual tourneys, which might not be accepted by some countries/nations. Then have the players play in different halves, quadrants and not have them meet at least the Semifinals Rd.
.


Actually, I propose the exactly opposite way. I will say, there's should be NO limit entries per nation. Why limit better players simply because the flag they are carrying? We always say, separate sport from politics, so, why we punish better players, simply they have some dominating brothers and sisters? Why we encourage some talent buy not as motivated players from non-power houses, not to traing hard to their full potential? Simply because s/he think their entry is locked up in the mail?

Why there's match fixing? Because the power houses (right now CHN being the most) try to counter attack the rules against them. They are trying extra harder to gain profit for themselves, such as ranking points, seeding, etc. If no more such limits, then everyone within their team will be "equal". Think about if CHN can send 8 MS to OG, then why the hell LD needs to take easy on CJ? Regardless CJ's rank is #4, or #5, or #15, he will be in OG anyway. Then, you will surely see CJ and LD fight to death for the AE title.

Right now, the power houses are doing others a big favor, by eliminating their own players, even including ex WC champions. What else we need ask them to do?

If ppl talking about the "fair play", let the WC champions and runner ups play "grand slam" events such as OG. I prefer such caliber players anytime than some no-name rank #80 flag carriers.

Sports is sports, it's not social welfare. You are good, you are in. You are not good, you are out. You want to take the challenge, train and play. If you lose, train harder next time. Stop being a crying baby, every time losing, just drop the racket, and crying, looking for mommy and complain "I can't win, I do not want to play any more..."

For the god sake, grow up... We are adults, and many are professionals. We are not 5 years old any more. "I only play, if I can win" is not for us...

[RedShuttle]

U did not read whole post by Redshuttle...He said that ZYL was injured from IO thats why ZYL was not playing XD...my point was ZYL may get injured during MAS GP, not during IO...and the reason why she did not play XD...
I never said ZYL did not play XD at IO due to injury. I only said because she did not play XD at IO, the team may have decided to use MAS GP as the last warm up for her (instead of withdrawing).

I did not even say ZYL was injured at IO. I said she was likely hampered by injury at IO, based on my observation that ZYL's performance at IO was subpar by her standard.

At the risk of bursting someone's veins, I venture to further speculate that ZYL let her guard down at MAS GP. Instead of holding back to protect her injury, during those few points actually played, ZYL went all out and looked more like the ZYL of old rather than the ZYL at IO. Sadly, she put too much faith on her knee and had to stop playing. That was inconsistant with putting on a show to deceive.

There is no doubt that the CHN team had managed matches in the past and may well do it again in the future. So may well do other teams except they just don't have as many opportunites to play tricks.

All I am saying is that in this particular instance, the injury and the inability to continue playing were real. It did not even get to the point where we can debate whether the one-game rule was in effect (where the first game was honestly contested and the loser gives up the second game). If the CHN team decided to play tricks, the one-game rule would be my guess here. Both teams (and the MJ/WXL pair) have multiple titles under their belts, none needs the title and points all that badly to risk poor PR for the team and the country. If Olympic qualification is on the line, the story may well be different. Again, as far as I can tell, it is just not the case here.

I just hope that we can have reasonable discussions driven by logic and badminton instead of politices. I said my piece and you can put forward yours. Until there are solid evidence to prove it conclusively one way or another, let's just clearly state what we think and be aware of there are other view points. I am sure there will be many agreements and disagreements down the road.

[ctjcad]

Actually, I propose the exactly opposite way. I will say, there's should be NO limit entries per nation. Why limit better players simply because the flag they are carrying? We always say, separate sport from politics, so, why we punish better players, simply they have some dominating brothers and sisters? Why we encourage some talent buy not as motivated players from non-power houses, not to traing hard to their full potential? Simply because s/he think their entry is locked up in the mail?

Why there's match fixing? Because the power houses (right now CHN being the most) try to counter attack the rules against them. They are trying extra harder to gain profit for themselves, such as ranking points, seeding, etc. If no more such limits, then everyone within their team will be "equal". Think about if CHN can send 8 MS to OG, then why the hell LD needs to take easy on CJ? Regardless CJ's rank is #4, or #5, or #15, he will be in OG anyway. Then, you will surely see CJ and LD fight to death for the AE title.
...
..well, i guess that proposed idea is not a favorite one, eh??..:p

- I concur there should be no limitations on allowing players who really deserve a spot to compete. However, badminton is more of a "team/country/nation" sport than a "true-individual/professional" sport. And BWF, in its attempt to popularize the sport, has put forth players limitations as to allow players from other countries a chance to compete.
- If CHN were to have 8 or even 16 MS players playing in say, the Olympics, do you think the "team order" system will disappear? Do you really think and believe players, playing under such circumstances, will be playing under "equal" terms, will play all out to gain glory for themselves and not for the country or certain higher-up individuals?
Also, i don't think what the CHN team has been doing is trying to "counter attack the rules against them".
As for the level of interest/viewership, others would argue: do you find a match, esp. one involving 2 players from the same national body a more interesting match than say a match involving 2 players from different countries?

..i think we've gone back to discussing past issue...and until the system is changed, i think we'll be revisiting this same ol' discussion all over again, in the future..

Thus, i guess the only way to "eliminate" or "minimize" this sort of debate is perhaps to make badminton like tennis, a "true-individual/professional" sport.

[eaglehelang]

I see. And I think the best way is to beat them during the competitions and not allow them to 'fix' the matches.

In my opinion, doesnt solve the problem, it's a 'trend'. Doesnt matter which stage of competition they meet. Or they can send more players/pairs, if they send more participants, then they meet each other more often. ;)

[eaglehelang]

..

.....Badminton needs to be turned away from a Socialism-type sport into a Capitalism-type sport..;):cool:

Anyway, we've gone into another route of discussion..:p

I thought in democratic countries, it's already Capitalism type? As in it's for individual glory, although $$$ supported by taxpayers/government.
That's why I said in earlier post that in Msia, all hell will break loose if there're reports of match fixing or "ordered to lose" (actually already happened with lawn bowling). :p

[pjswift]

Of course I "filter", because I do have a thing call brain. :D

The difference is, when I "filter", I tryied to express that from my own point of view, and I made it very clear by saying, "i think", or "i believe". I tried to say what I believe is reasonable. I do not have to pressure others, by borrowing "xxx manager" or "some other players" name every single time.

God, do you really have to borrow names each time to win a debate? Can you use your own observation to back up your own point, instead of throwing some names, which no one seriously know that's really the case or not.

Hey, I can say I meet the president every single day, and tell you here and there simply with some "quote" god knows who said or I made up. Do you have to swallow every single word from me then? :cool:

Seriously, many ppl here even question LYB and other high ranking CHN team official's wording every single time. What make your "no name" manager's quote become so reliable?
I'm afraid you misunderstand if you think Rudy's trying to win a debate by quoting names.

The difference between you and Rudy is that he is close to the ground and has direct contacts to sources of information. You don't ,that's why you have to guess and 'think and believe'. He does not have to observe; he just gets to the source that's in charge. Isn't that better and more credible? He quotes sources to indicate facts and not opinions.Of course sources may not always be truthful but between one fact and many opinions, one fact exceeds many opinions in value.

Let's take an example. When Samuel Huntington? wrote "the Clash of Civilisations', many in the west raved about it but some who know and have lived in China scoffed at his work. This is because Huntington had not been to China at all yet he wrote like he knew China so well. It is possible through research to fool many who have not been to China but not those who have.
These days one can write a travel story without leaving home. One editor told me she 'cooked up' a travel feature on Cambodia by accessing the relevant websites and interviewing a friend who just holidayed there.

[ctjcad]

..perhaps LazyBuddy and others in the same shoes as him somewhat "acknowledge" such news/report. But perhaps, they would be more at ease if the actual reports come out of the players', the coaches' mouth themselves, or even reported through the news media, rather than through another individual's account/report.:confused:
Thus the "take it with a grain of salt" approach when hearing such news/report.

In my opinion, doesnt solve the problem, it's a 'trend'. Doesnt matter which stage of competition they meet. Or they can send more players/pairs, if they send more participants, then they meet each other more often. ;)
That's why, viver and others (incl. LazyBuddy) mentioned one way to not have these "match fixing" scenarios, esp. from the CHN team, is to have non-CHN players beat the CHN players. If the non-CHN players can't beat the CHN players, how to eliminate the "match fixing" mah?? Go back to same2 problem..;)

I thought in democratic countries, it's already Capitalism type? As in it's for individual glory, although $$$ supported by taxpayers/government.
That's why I said in earlier post that in Msia, all hell will break loose if there're reports of match fixing or "ordered to lose" (actually already happened with lawn bowling). :p
Off topic:
Yes, democratic countries tend to be more capitalistic. Is China one of them?
Capitalism approach will be manifested through private funding, self-effort; not through govt. intervention/funding. Players win, they keep the money, pay their own coaches/trainers/managers out of their own pocket, even have to pay tax to the govt. Some players are already in that mold (Taufik etc.)
If govt. is funding and the players get to keep some of the money, then it's mixed economy. Which one is the norm in badminton?;)

[viver]

Thank you ctjcad. That's exactly my thoughts. No point of whining if there is no one stopping the Chinese players meeting at advanced phases of competition. Furthermore, I don't believe they are the ONLY ones doing it. China is more visible because they are able to place more players into the final phases of the tournaments.

For this case, the XD final - I don't think the injury is fake even though I don't have the details. Both teams are from China and the first place is guaranteed, so I think it is unlikely to give up the match like that.

[jasonmarc]

Thank you ctjcad. That's exactly my thoughts. No point of whining if there is no one stopping the Chinese players meeting at advanced phases of competition. Furthermore, I don't believe they are the ONLY ones doing it. China is more visible because they are able to place more players into the final phases of the tournaments.

For this case, the XD final - I don't think the injury is fake even though I don't have the details. Both teams are from China and the first place is guaranteed, so I think it is unlikely to give up the match like that.


The Team who 'did it'....repeately the most......is Team China :cool:

The latest,....WSX also retired during yesterday's WS SF....Phlippine Open..:D:D:D:D

[cooler]

The Team who 'did it'....repeately the most......is Team China :cool:

The latest,....WSX also retired during yesterday's WS SF....Phlippine Open..:D:D:D:D

awwwh, so sad. MAS can't do this because they don't have enough players to reach beyond the SF.

can u prove it was lyb's doing? these 2 gals are friends and could have their own pact as both wanted to be in the first team. There is a higher level of skills called... cooperation. U should read up on how boys and girls go about doing things on a same task.
LYB (and my paw) maybe a victim here as we got outfoxed by these girls. :D:p

[LazyBuddy]

The difference between you and Rudy is that he is close to the ground and has direct contacts to sources of information. You don't ,that's why you have to guess and 'think and believe'. He does not have to observe; he just gets to the source that's in charge. Isn't that better and more credible? He quotes sources to indicate facts and not opinions.Of course sources may not always be truthful but between one fact and many opinions, one fact exceeds many opinions in value.

If having direct contacts can automatically gurantee the truth, I guess we should trust every single reporters' words from now on, because they all have much more close contact than anyone of us here combined. However, they (for what ever intention) more than once can mis-lead us, by telling some "twisted" stories than the truth.

I am not here to question Rudy's creditability. Actually, I enjoy reading some of his "side reports". However, I only take such and such as gossip, and never use it as important as evidence for personality judgement or medical proof.

Seriously, if us here question about LYB's wording every here and then, what makes a joe-doe so-call manager (let's assume there's such a person, and a conversation) wording become so reliable? :rolleyes:

[LazyBuddy]

The Team who 'did it'....repeately the most......is Team China :cool:

The latest,....WSX also retired during yesterday's WS SF....Phlippine Open..:D:D:D:D


So? When your own coach ever have 2 or more in the semi or final, let's see if he can put on a real show.

Remember, "can not do it" is not the same as "would not do it" :p

[LazyBuddy]

- If CHN were to have 8 or even 16 MS players playing in say, the Olympics, do you think the "team order" system will disappear? Do you really think and believe players, playing under such circumstances, will be playing under "equal" terms, will play all out to gain glory for themselves and not for the country or certain higher-up individuals?

I think we are missing the basic point here. If CHN has 16 MS players in OG, means they deserve to come in @ 1st place. But now, they only have 3, and 13 are taken by the ones NOT SUPPOSE TO play to begin with.

Sure, there are matches can be fixed here and there, but at least, we potentially will have a good amount of high level matches. But once you kick a WC champion out, and replace with a rank 85 flag carrier, where is even the potential?

If I am not good enough, I might not be able to participate in Flight A tournaments. Can I tell the manager, say, "hey, I am chinese", "I am short", "I am poor", "I am slow", "I am fat"... whatever, so he should kick out 1 of his top ranking players, to make me happy, to make me get a chance to get kicked?

Sure, we feel bad for some athelets from non-power house, as they did not get a chance to train in a well established program. However, should we sacrfies ppl like WC champion and runner up, and turn the OG into a "social welfare" event? :rolleyes:

So, are we really trying to promote the sport? Or, we are simply telling ppl to "born in the right nation" or "make sure immigrant as early as you can"? :cool:

Seriously, we say we feel bad for CM in OG2000, and LCW in OG 2008. However, they made their path to the final by facing relatively less competitive opponents (especially in earlier rounds). If they really need to face a massive wave of CHN or other power houses players to begin with, god damn knows if they can get into final to begin with.

[LazyBuddy]

He does not have to observe; he just gets to the source that's in charge. Isn't that better and more credible? He quotes sources to indicate facts and not opinions.Of course sources may not always be truthful but between one fact and many opinions, one fact exceeds many opinions in value.

The key issue is, who said the whatever manager's quote is the "FACT"? :confused:

If so, then why we always disagree what ever LYB's quote is? Isn't his quote should be consider even more "reliable" and "FACT"? Simply because he is a higher ranking official, and closer to the situation than most other managers? Why we do not just from today, simply take whatever LYB give to us, and do not even start this thread. Because LYB said its "injury" already. :D

Sources might not be truthful, glad that you know that. If not truthful, then how you can call it's a fact to begin with? If throwing bigger name means more "fact", then I can give you even more names, and quote even more things from this or that. If that easily makes my point being accepted, then maybe I can easily end the debate by list a few names.

The reason I prefer "think and observation", is because I do not want any quote to mis-lead myself or others. Otherwise, there's no need to have any investigation, it's just a matter of who has more big names to throw out.

[viver]

The Team who 'did it'....repeately the most......is Team China :cool:

The latest,....WSX also retired during yesterday's WS SF....Phlippine Open..:D:D:D:D

Yes, just to prove my point that currently China is able to advance more players into the final phases of the competition. Can you tell me that is WSX's (whatever her name is) fault to reach the semi-final and none of her opponents were able to stop her?

Repeatedly does not mean exclusively... ;)

[madbad]

I think we are missing the basic point here. If CHN has 16 MS players in OG, means they deserve to come in @ 1st place.

No they don't. You deserve to be #1 if you win the final

But now, they only have 3, and 13 are taken by the ones NOT SUPPOSE TO play to begin with.

Tell me where in the OG qualification rules that state the 13 others do not deserve to be playing. When CHN chose to participate in the OG, they knew what the qualification quota already. I guess if they were so upset about it, they could have declined to participate.

Sure, there are matches can be fixed here and there, but at least, we potentially will have a good amount of high level matches.

You must be kidding me. The quality would be like watching a prolonged training session. Good try in attempting to salvage a dire situation but you're fooling no one.

But once you kick a WC champion out, and replace with a rank 85 flag carrier, where is even the potential?

If I am not good enough, I might not be able to participate in Flight A tournaments. Can I tell the manager, say, "hey, I am chinese", "I am short", "I am poor", "I am slow", "I am fat"... whatever, so he should kick out 1 of his top ranking players, to make me happy, to make me get a chance to get kicked?

That's why there are BWF events and the OG. They are governed by different rules. If you can't understand the difference I suggest you read up on it and not go on endlessly. I'm sure most of us know the difference.

Sure, we feel bad for some athelets from non-power house, as they did not get a chance to train in a well established program. However, should we sacrfies ppl like WC champion and runner up, and turn the OG into a "social welfare" event? :rolleyes:

Sure, let's turn the OG into a social welfare event so that half the countries can't participate. Let us lose badminton from the OG. Let us return badminton to a backyard sport. Bottom line is badminton needs the OG more than the OG needs badminton. Badminton is an OG sport provides a better opportunity for it to be developed worldwide.

So, are we really trying to promote the sport? Or, we are simply telling ppl to "born in the right nation" or "make sure immigrant as early as you can"? :cool:

Promoting the sport doesn't mean either of the above. Have you seen those Olympic moments when an athlete from a small nation shocks the world and wins gold? If everyone subscribed to your cynical view, we'd never get to enjoy those moments.

Seriously, we say we feel bad for CM in OG2000, and LCW in OG 2008. However, they made their path to the final by facing relatively less competitive opponents (especially in earlier rounds). If they really need to face a massive wave of CHN or other power houses players to begin with, god damn knows if they can get into final to begin with.

ZZZZZZZZZZ... boring. Yes, CHN is the best. Jia-yu!



Your reply would actually have some credibility if you could present an objective point of view. Know the difference between the OG and open tournaments before continuing. What the OG is and should be is not determined by you or CHN.

[ctjcad]

I think we are missing the basic point here.
...(LazyBuddy's point of view which will probably be repeated in some form, in the future, snipped for brevity)...
..okay, point of view taken.
Anyway, I think as long as badminton/BWF continues to employ the current system in international competition, on top of the stigma of the CHN team, this debate will surface again in the future.
On that note, yes, in case something like this occurs again in the future and you have an itch to reply back, maybe you can highlight, copy & paste your post. Save you typing time; reuse & recycle it again.;):cool:

[jasonmarc]

..okay, point of view taken.
Anyway, I think as long as badminton/BWF continues to employ the current system in international competition, on top of the stigma of the CHN team, this debate will surface again in the future.
On that note, yes, in case something like this occurs again in the future and you have an itch to reply back, maybe you can highlight, copy & paste your post. Save you typing time; reuse & recycle it again.;):cool:

Yes, its environmental friendly...........:D:D:D

[ctjcad]

...
The latest,....WSX also retired during yesterday's WS SF....Phlippine Open..:D:D:D:D
..Wang Shixian did not retire in her Semifinal match y'day. She lost in 2 games, although the margin of the 2nd game was quite gaping.

[pjswift]

The key issue is, who said the whatever manager's quote is the "FACT"? :confused:

If so, then why we always disagree what ever LYB's quote is? Isn't his quote should be consider even more "reliable" and "FACT"? Simply because he is a higher ranking official, and closer to the situation than most other managers? Why we do not just from today, simply take whatever LYB give to us, and do not even start this thread. Because LYB said its "injury" already. :D

Sources might not be truthful, glad that you know that. If not truthful, then how you can call it's a fact to begin with? If throwing bigger name means more "fact", then I can give you even more names, and quote even more things from this or that. If that easily makes my point being accepted, then maybe I can easily end the debate by list a few names.

The reason I prefer "think and observation", is because I do not want any quote to mis-lead myself or others. Otherwise, there's no need to have any investigation, it's just a matter of who has more big names to throw out.
You can give bigger names but there's nothing in your post history to indicate you have access to informed sources like Rudy. Rudy has more credibility in that area than you but there's no harm you trying and see if others believe you when you quote sources.

[eaglehelang]

..

That's why, viver and others (incl. LazyBuddy) mentioned one way to not have these "match fixing" scenarios, esp. from the CHN team, is to have non-CHN players beat the CHN players. If the non-CHN players can't beat the CHN players, how to eliminate the "match fixing" mah?? Go back to same2 problem..;)

Off topic:
Yes, democratic countries tend to be more capitalistic. Is China one of them? ........
;)

Yes, I know their point, but as I've already mentioned 2X, I dont think that will solve the problem as (for Open tournaments) China can send more participants, then they meet will each other often. Unless one fine day, China suddenly become broke, can only afford to send 1 player/pair in each discipline.

Officially, CHina is still communist, that's why their system & policies are different. As for other countries(including countries big in baddy) where capitalism thrives, we've already discussed in other threads why many will chose "academic excellence"/regular job vs pro Badminton, even if the player is talented & good.

Therefore, just to say, other countries should buck & groom good players to beat China, is easier said than done. As good young players have quit & taken up study scholarship offers(free mah, parents no need susah payah pay) or work regular jobs.;)
Unless they're no good in studies like LCW & TBH (their parents said so in interviews) AND have good results when young - like TBH. Very few can achieve that or have large enuf own financial support while waiting. If go college, 3 or 4 years, finish already, parents no need support anymore.

[george@chongwei]

i seriously need some panadol active fast to read this whole thread though:(:eek::D

[ctjcad]

Yes, I know their point, but as I've already mentioned 2X, I dont think that will solve the problem as (for Open tournaments) China can send more participants, then they meet will each other often. Unless one fine day, China suddenly become broke, can only afford to send 1 player/pair in each discipline.

Officially, CHina is still communist, that's why their system & policies are different. As for other countries(including countries big in baddy) where capitalism thrives, we've already discussed in other threads why many will chose "academic excellence"/regular job vs pro Badminton, even if the player is talented & good.

Therefore, just to say, other countries should buck & groom good players to beat China, is easier said than done. As good young players have quit & taken up study scholarship offers(free mah, parents no need susah payah pay) or work regular jobs.;)
Unless they're no good in studies like LCW & TBH (their parents said so in interviews) AND have good results when young - like TBH. Very few can achieve that or have large enuf own financial support while waiting. If go college, 3 or 4 years, finish already, parents no need support anymore.
- So, if what was suggested by viver & LazyBuddy will not solve the problem, then what is? do you have any suggestion(s) on what should be done to prevent such scenario from happening again? Or there's simply no other way to solve it?

- Other "countries big in baddy"? How about M'sia (other than KLRC)? Who support BAM? How about PBSI? Who support them? Can you find any country which sponsor its baddy players purely from 100% private funding?
I'm using the capitalism-approach to baddy in terms of players earning their livelihood through baddy, just like in pro tennis.; spending the hard earned money from tourneys to pay for their own private coach/trainer, manager, travel expense instead of channeling it through a bureaucratic body.

- Why would many choose "'academic excellence'/regular job vs pro Badminton, even if the player is talented & good."?? Why would "good young players have to quit & taken up study scholarship offers"??

[cooler]

i seriously need some panadol active fast to read this whole thread though:(:eek::D
too mild, u should try demerol or oxycontin;)

[supernova]

China Mix Double will play dirty this afternoon final.

Due to betting site handicap,bet 100 for Zheng Bo / Ma Jin (WIN 250)
bet 100 for Xu Chen / Zhao Yunlei(Only Win 22)
:mad::mad:

this is really a retard topic.

does anyone in this forum would believe a china top player cares about that
stupid money more than a championship title?

it's so easy for them to make money by coaching,
but it will be so difficult for them to get a chance to enter the national team and then to play an international tournament. one loss may imply they could not go to any of the tournament in a few years because there are so may other equally strong players are in competition to get a spot.

If they won and get more chances to play, they could make a lot more money in the future.

[limsy]

this is really a retard topic.

does anyone in this forum would believe a china top player cares about that
stupid money more than a championship title?

it's so easy for them to make money by coaching,
but it will be so difficult for them to get a chance to enter the national team and then to play an international tournament. one loss may imply they could not go to any of the tournament in a few years because there are so may other equally strong players are in competition to get a spot.

If they won and get more chances to play, they could make a lot more money in the future.

haha,are we discuss about betting here?:eek::rolleyes:

[viver]

How are you? Haven't seen you for a while.

Not allowing CHN or anyone for that matter, to legally fix matches is easier said than done. There are many ways around that which may not necessarily can be proven.

Hi Madbad,

Sorry for not seeing your post earlier. My bad habits of reading the last post of the thread... :o I am busy on Sundays, so no time to play during the evening, especially the 21-points sucks :D.

I would say money is the issue. If prize money is not enough to support players, the national centralized training and government funding will continue...

[LazyBuddy]

Your reply would actually have some credibility if you could present an objective point of view. Know the difference between the OG and open tournaments before continuing. What the OG is and should be is not determined by you or CHN.

Ok, after reading all the replies, I try to point out a few things here.

1. "come in @ 1st place" means "be able to participate to begin with". I am not dumb enough to have 16 players coming in all at 1st seed. :cool:

2. Sure, I would like to see underdog to create upset. However, those underdog needs to earn their entrance with their skill, not political influence, especially not at the cost of WC champion or runner up's absence. Tell me any sports that a WC champion can not even participate, simply because the flags they are carrying.

3. Ok, OG has its special meaning. However, are we talking about promoting a sport here, or set up a political conference? Also, who set up the OG rules? Have to say, more or less from the ones who "can not win". Otherwise, why they choose to fix things like table tennis, badminton, etc, but not all the swimming and tracking field?

4. OG has limit entries, so does WC. Isn't "Word Championship" means the best of the best? Then, why there's limit? Why you want less skillful players instead of much better ones? If you really go with the skill and performance, CHN WS might have 6-8, instead of 4.

5. We all know how some "rules" were setup to begin with. So, please do not tell me a rather biased rule is the god standard.

6. If your guys can pin point everything about CHN team, LYB's wording, etc. Why can not I say I feel bad for players like XXZ, XXF, CY, etc as they missed out OG participation? Tell me any sports like CY's skill level, can NEVER even participate in OG ever??? Isn't that a joke? And why can not I say somethign about it?

7. Sure, I do not know enough about OG. Simply because a simple sports events is twisted and complicated by so many "smart" ppl out there. Keep the sport to be simple, and let the best ones to play. That's what I want to see, period.

[LazyBuddy]

You can give bigger names but there's nothing in your post history to indicate you have access to informed sources like Rudy. Rudy has more credibility in that area than you but there's no harm you trying and see if others believe you when you quote sources.

So, do you mean if I start to flood the forum with all the big names today (be it the truth or make up a few stories here and there), then I will soon have the "credibility" to fool others?

I was once told a story by elders when i was a kid. One person screaming there's a tiger in the market, everyone laughed about him. 2nd person said the same thing, everyone said he is dumb. 3rd person said the same, then everyone started to believe, and pass around the rumors. The truth is, there's still no tiger.

So, you tell me regarding the above story, is there any creditability? It's obviously 3 jerks spreading the rumors, and suddenly since everyone starts to believe, you tell me they are "creditable" now? :rolleyes:

Still, no one answered my question yet. Even is there's this "no name" manager said something to Rudy. Why we choose to believe this "manager", rather than whatever LYB, ZYL, and the team doctor said? Isn't LYB is the higher official, the doctor has the most knowledge regarding injury, and ZYL is the person who has the injury (or not) herself?

Why we want to give a "somebody" more creditbility than 3 others, who by theory (at least), should have more creditbility to begin with? :rolleyes:

[LazyBuddy]

Therefore, just to say, other countries should buck & groom good players to beat China, is easier said than done. As good young players have quit & taken up study scholarship offers(free mah, parents no need susah payah pay) or work regular jobs.;)
Unless they're no good in studies like LCW & TBH (their parents said so in interviews) AND have good results when young - like TBH. Very few can achieve that or have large enuf own financial support while waiting. If go college, 3 or 4 years, finish already, parents no need support anymore.

1. Of course, nothing can be free or easy, especially if we choose only talking, finger pointing but not doing. Only training can create good players. Beating up LYB or LB does not give you or any players anything. :D

2. Why players can not play well, if they are good students? If I remember correctly, many European players are professionals besides badminton, including engineers and doctors. I am pretty sure they are good students. So, if the european players can do both, why other can not?

3. If a parent force his/her kids to give up badminton to focus on something else, then I am sure it has nothing to do with LYB or CHN team startegy. :D

[eaglehelang]

- So, if what was suggested by viver & LazyBuddy will not solve the problem, then what is? do you have any suggestion(s) on what should be done to prevent such scenario from happening again? Or there's simply no other way to solve it?
For start, BWF need to take tougher stand (proven cases lah)bf Olympic Committee gets pissed off & one fine day decides to boot Badminton out of OG. But that's for the decision makers to have headache over, we have no say mah.:p

- Why would many choose "'academic excellence'/regular job vs pro Badminton, even if the player is talented & good."?? Why would "good young players have to quit & taken up study scholarship offers"??
Please read the Msia Junior & back-up threads & the specific players threads, hehehe. Basically, in Asia, as you know, it's studies 1st, studies 2nd, studies 3rd, sports maybe 4th. Of course, it's $$$$$$$$, regular job more stable, pay more also; if scholarship, guarantee job & future. Sports, well.... very uncertain one, I lazy to repeat & off topic also.:D

[LazyBuddy]

Sure, there are matches can be fixed here and there, but at least, we potentially will have a good amount of high level matches.

You must be kidding me. The quality would be like watching a prolonged training session. Good try in attempting to salvage a dire situation but you're fooling no one.


From when the internal matches has to be boring? If that's the case, then there's should not no inter-club, inter-region, inter-state, national level match at all, as clearly most participants know each other, and may train with each other at a daily basis.

Just give you some information, even in this forum, many ppl pay close attention to CHN all-city games. Why, because the standard is so high, many ppl believe the overall competition level is even beyound AE, WC or OG. Choose to believe or not, it is the case, as even dominating players like LD, ZN loss numerous times in such competition. I seriously do not see such matches as "pro-long" or boring. :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

Please read the Msia Junior & back-up threads & the specific players threads, hehehe. Basically, in Asia, as you know, it's studies 1st, studies 2nd, studies 3rd, sports maybe 4th. Of course, it's $$$$$$$$, regular job more stable, pay more also; if scholarship, guarantee job & future. Sports, well.... very uncertain one, I lazy to repeat & off topic also.:D


If your parents choose study over badminton, then why LYB and CHN team needs to take a hit as they have "too many good players" :rolleyes:

Btw, last time I check the map, CHN belongs to Asia as well. So, if they can produce some quality players, others should have no excuses.

[volcom]

If your parents choose study over badminton, then why LYB and CHN team needs to take a hit as they have "too many good players" :rolleyes:

Btw, last time I check the map, CHN belongs to Asia as well. So, if they can produce some quality players, others should have no excuses.

The haters will complain that cos of the Chinese political system that the kid is forced to play and train for years with no education blah blah blah.
It never ends, the stupid hatred.

[eaglehelang]

1. Of course, nothing can be free or easy, especially if we choose only talking, finger pointing but not doing. Only training can create good players. Beating up LYB or LB does not give you or any players anything. :D
That's why I said China system is different. You also just talking mah, we have no say how the training system is implemented. I taxpayer also no say. They train2, then the youngsters go off to "better" options. The system is such. Capitalism vs socialist/communism.


2. Why players can not play well, if they are good students? If I remember correctly, many European players are professionals besides badminton, including engineers and doctors. I am pretty sure they are good students. So, if the european players can do both, why other can not?
I'm not saying they cant play well if they're good students. If they're good students, they'll be asked to focus on 'academic excellence' not sports. Pls ask your Asian friends on the cultural differences.

Plus, as far as I've read players in Europe dont train as many hours as Asia players. Asia players train 5.5 days a week, go for tournaments once a month or more.
And since when Europe is big in badminton(in recent times), isnt it often lamented that Asia countries dominate?

3. If a parent force his/her kids to give up badminton to focus on something else, then I am sure it has nothing to do with LYB or CHN team startegy. :D


3) You suggest train hard2,etc,etc mah for other countries to catch up-> if lack quality players (or good enuf attractions to keep the good ones), how have enuf "good" ones to beat CHina players so there wouldnt be CHina vs China. In China, many times it's "without sports/badminton, he/she has nothing".
I'm saying in my observation, at least what has happened to Msia players, it will not solve the problem. Of course as usual you disagree, never mind also.:D:D

Of course lah it has nothing to do with China team orders/"match fixing". I said already,in my opinion, China will continue to do so, its their habit. ....Something which in Msia, if caught (with evidence & all that stuff), can have free accommodation & food in 'nice' jail cell plus forever blacklisted.:p:p

[jasonmarc]

The haters will complain that cos of the Chinese political system that the kid is forced to play and train for years with no education blah blah blah.
It never ends, the stupid hatred.

Its not hatred,...and no body hates Chn Team or chn players here.....we all adore :p them as among the best in world best.

We only critics the wrong doing in the sport.....by any team,...not only Chn....;) :p

[eaglehelang]

If your parents choose study over badminton, then why LYB and CHN team needs to take a hit as they have "too many good players" :rolleyes:

Btw, last time I check the map, CHN belongs to Asia as well. So, if they can produce some quality players, others should have no excuses.

Pls read again earlier posts, do not sidetrack. The system different, you know very well, and we have no say how the politics of the countries are run (which affect sporting policies).

Parents pay leh for studies & top up the allowances. If parents cannot afford to pay/top up anymore, or got retrenched, then the player have to work lah, especially if regular job pay more than playing badminton - must earn living mah. Or study some course, quick2 graduate, work to support family.
If you still dont get it, go ask a parent of a player.

[ctjcad]

For start, BWF need to take tougher stand (proven cases lah)bf Olympic Committee gets pissed off & one fine day decides to boot Badminton out of OG. But that's for the decision makers to have headache over, we have no say mah.:p

Please read the Msia Junior & back-up threads & the specific players threads, hehehe. Basically, in Asia, as you know, it's studies 1st, studies 2nd, studies 3rd, sports maybe 4th. Of course, it's $$$$$$$$, regular job more stable, pay more also; if scholarship, guarantee job & future. Sports, well.... very uncertain one, I lazy to repeat & off topic also.:D
- "BWF need to take a tougher stand"? Proven cases of what and based on what? Cases that supposedly accused CHN of cheating/tampering by "match fixing"? Do you think that'll really be solved??

- Dink, dink, dink, dink, dink, i guess it goes back to the suggestion i made, eh?;) Hmm, i don't need to re-read those threads again; they're already seared and engrained in my mind.;)
So, if it's really abt $$$$$$$$ (or lack of) that the non-CHN kids are presented with, then what should BWF do about it?

Off topic:
Btw, you mentioned kids in non-CHN countries are more focused on study, study, study over sport. You don't think kids in CHN are also focused in "academic excellence" in study 1st, study 2nd and study 3rd and 4th and 5th?:confused:

[LazyBuddy]

3) You suggest train hard2,etc,etc mah for other countries to catch up-> if lack quality players (or good enuf attractions to keep the good ones), how have enuf "good" ones to beat CHina players so there wouldnt be CHina vs China. In China, many times it's "without sports/badminton, he/she has nothing".



If such said, then DEN should never have any decent badminton players to begin with, as they have a relatively small population, and in general, tax and cost of living in western world are higher than in Asia. Plus, most such players paying their own training and coaching. Please do not tell me everyone of them come from millionare families.

In Europe, if mega football stars got paid for millions, and even rising basketball stars getting millions, why you think DEN players still trying hard, and produce generations of legends, and many of them do have very high education as well.

So, study 1st, or family income is just an excuse for a "no-so-effiecient" program structure. The key is the your own motivation. If you decide to do it, you will find a way, might be a bit easier, might be a bit harder. However, if you decide not to do it, you can live with LD and/or Bill Gates in the same house, and you still may not even qualify for a club tournament. :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

Parents pay leh for studies & top up the allowances. If parents cannot afford to pay/top up anymore, or got retrenched, then the player have to work lah, especially if regular job pay more than playing badminton - must earn living mah. Or study some course, quick2 graduate, work to support family.
If you still dont get it, go ask a parent of a player.


Even though, myself is no where near a pro, but I came through a long way to enjoy the sports.

In NYC, we pay as much as $25 per drop in (3-4 hours session, taping courts in high school gym, etc), and not everyone is an millionare. Many players, including myself (when I was in school) saved even our lunch money for equipment and drop-in fees and training. Instead of hanging out and spend $10-15 for monvies, we say up for badminton. We are not loaded, but we rank badminton higher than a lot of other things.

Do you know how I saved up my 1st racket when I was in school? I even walked in storms to save the bus token ($1.25 per trip). If I can buy a cheaper T-shirt for $5, I do not go to buy named brand for $29.99. I bring lunch to school / work, instead of purchase in the cafe... Yes, there are ways you can save, it's a matter you decide to do it or not.

So, there's nothing impossible in the world, just a matter whether you want to work hard for it. Please do not simply asking parents for money. You have your own hands and feet, and there's nothing wrong to get a part time job to support your own hobby. Sure, the pay could be low, your hanging out time will be cut, you may spend more time on the road than lying in bed, etc. No pain, no gain, my friend...

[LazyBuddy]

The haters will complain that cos of the Chinese political system that the kid is forced to play and train for years with no education blah blah blah.
It never ends, the stupid hatred.

The kids is forced to train? Not I know of. It's clearly the kids and family's own choice. If a parent decide the kid is better to attend school instead, I am sure LYB will not lock them up or point a gun to their head.

Many kids and family make such choices, not because LYB told them to "follow the order", but they consider it as a possible career. 99.9% of them do try, but quit after they change their mind. LYB only has a few hundreds in the naitonal team, but not 1.3 billion.

I remember when I was in elementry school, there's a special class set up for city's junior swimming team members. All such kids attend the same school as we do, because their parents would like them to have education when they are young. I never heard any of their coaches give them trouble, or "force" them to jump into the pool, when they are taking a math exam something. :D

[LazyBuddy]

I was there during IO Open..I did not see any injury from ZYL as she had beaten ZYW/ZTT or semi..

Great, I just found a way US president can fix the health care. No more need for fancy equipment / test such as X-Ray or MRI any more, and fire all the nurses and doctors. We just need to let you to take a look and immediately decide whether someone need any treatment or not.

Do you know the term of "injury got worsen by fatigue or repeating damage"? Not every injury is like a heart attack, showing the signs within a fraction of a second.

Many ppl claimed disability after years of hard physical labor. The injury / pain slowly built up after days, months and years. You can not say all such claims are fraud, simply because, "man, I just saw you carrying 50lbs boxes 2 weeks ago", right? :rolleyes:

[limsy]

Ok, after reading all the replies, I try to point out a few things here.

1. "come in @ 1st place" means "be able to participate to begin with". I am not dumb enough to have 16 players coming in all at 1st seed. :cool:

2. Sure, I would like to see underdog to create upset. However, those underdog needs to earn their entrance with their skill, not political influence, especially not at the cost of WC champion or runner up's absence. Tell me any sports that a WC champion can not even participate, simply because the flags they are carrying.

3. Ok, OG has its special meaning. However, are we talking about promoting a sport here, or set up a political conference? Also, who set up the OG rules? Have to say, more or less from the ones who "can not win". Otherwise, why they choose to fix things like table tennis, badminton, etc, but not all the swimming and tracking field?

4. OG has limit entries, so does WC. Isn't "Word Championship" means the best of the best? Then, why there's limit? Why you want less skillful players instead of much better ones? If you really go with the skill and performance, CHN WS might have 6-8, instead of 4.

5. We all know how some "rules" were setup to begin with. So, please do not tell me a rather biased rule is the god standard.

6. If your guys can pin point everything about CHN team, LYB's wording, etc. Why can not I say I feel bad for players like XXZ, XXF, CY, etc as they missed out OG participation? Tell me any sports like CY's skill level, can NEVER even participate in OG ever??? Isn't that a joke? And why can not I say somethign about it?

7. Sure, I do not know enough about OG. Simply because a simple sports events is twisted and complicated by so many "smart" ppl out there. Keep the sport to be simple, and let the best ones to play. That's what I want to see, period.

ok,we stop here
cancel the limitation
and let see how badminton gonna survive like ping pong:rolleyes:
primary student question
now the ping pong manager is trying how to lost a title to let others interest in ping pong more,what pity man.:rolleyes:
oh ya,should say,they deserve to win,why let go the md title in recent tournament?:rolleyes:(by pairing the weakest posible combination:cool:)


So, do you mean if I start to flood the forum with all the big names today (be it the truth or make up a few stories here and there), then I will soon have the "credibility" to fool others?

I was once told a story by elders when i was a kid. One person screaming there's a tiger in the market, everyone laughed about him. 2nd person said the same thing, everyone said he is dumb. 3rd person said the same, then everyone started to believe, and pass around the rumors. The truth is, there's still no tiger.

So, you tell me regarding the above story, is there any creditability? It's obviously 3 jerks spreading the rumors, and suddenly since everyone starts to believe, you tell me they are "creditable" now? :rolleyes:

Still, no one answered my question yet. Even is there's this "no name" manager said something to Rudy. Why we choose to believe this "manager", rather than whatever LYB, ZYL, and the team doctor said? Isn't LYB is the higher official, the doctor has the most knowledge regarding injury, and ZYL is the person who has the injury (or not) herself?

Why we want to give a "somebody" more creditbility than 3 others, who by theory (at least), should have more creditbility to begin with? :rolleyes:

this is also a primary student question
if one say kill people is correct and another say killing is incorrect
no one will choose the 1st one,as easy as that.
u can choose to believe a and i can choose to believe b.
ur rights and my rights
then it is endless
but majority will decide the truth.
u can be the 1st one to believe the earth is round.and u can be he 1st to believe the sun is the center of solarsystem and not earth.as easy as that,UR choice:rolleyes:


If your parents choose study over badminton, then why LYB and CHN team needs to take a hit as they have "too many good players" :rolleyes:

Btw, last time I check the map, CHN belongs to Asia as well. So, if they can produce some quality players, others should have no excuses.

applause,u comment like u dont know how different the system is.
i need not to reply in a long long essay as i think many would know how wise ur statement is.:D

[eaglehelang]

Even though, myself is no where near a pro, but I came through a long way to enjoy the sports.

... No pain, no gain, my friend...

If you've taken time to read the Prof players threads, all of that you said & MORE have been done by the players.
The thing is after all the pain, some of them got no gain, they still end up with nothing, that's reality. Other points have been discussed in other threads, too long to repeat2.

The system is China is different, capitalism vs socialism/communism.

Like you said, you're not pro, I also not pro player(but at least is taxpayer), we just talk2 only, of course lah easy for us. :D:p
__________________________________________________ ____________
Anyway, the main point was about "match fixing" including non-genuine injury/illness retirements, you keep thinking non China pick on Team China, not so. The act itself is wrong, any country doing it will be similarly condemned.

Just currently, the percentage of Team China doing it is more than other countries. And having "more good players" is not an excuse to do so. Nor will other countries do it if they also have good players(you mentioned this in earlier post) cos they'll be gone case. If it was Msia player, will sacked, chopped & hung out to dry.

You also neglected to take note that I mentioned 2X that all hell will break loose if "match fixing" pratices happens among Msia sportspeople. Recent examples were Football in 2008, Lawn bowling in 2009. Reference articles for lawn bowling issue is Utusan Msia & Berita Harian, 23 to 26 March 2009(for those who read malay). They can end up in jail if proven guilty, reputation permanently tarnished. That is how serious it's looked upon.

[LazyBuddy]

Ok, LB surrounder here, after going through this kinda waves of debates.

Right now, I am already being labeled as such a person, who can not even figure out whether murder is fault or not. So, be the way you want to believe, and I am pretty powerless to argue now. Well others are all "creditable" even though even as of today, no one still can answer me, why such "creditable" person rather listen to a manager, rather than LYB, ZYL and the team officical medical report.

Like my very early post in this thread, your guys can chop poor LB (with LYB in the same pot) all over the place here, the fact is, CHN continue to produce overall better players, and get their last laugh in most of the major tournaments, whether your guys accept it gladly, or always question about everything LYB said, everything LD did, or any line up they sent.

I was simply trying to point out the fact that the fundamental way to resolve such issue is to "get more competitive players". Whether CHN play clean or dirty, as long as their players will not always meet, then there's no "questions". If you believe the root of problem is the training system / player / coaching staff, then I assume the problem will be fixed or improved. If you believe doing 10 vs. 1 on LB, or 2,000 vs LYB is an easy way out, then be like that. I wish you get a great miracle.

After all, I got flood by tons of reasons (excuses) about population, education, piroity, political structure, economy, tax paying, income, parents, etc. Fine, so, everything goes against your players, and I final feel sorry for you.

Great, just continue be this way, and let's see whether one day LYB will suddenly regreat what he did, or suddenly feel sorry for other players, and the situation will chance. :rolleyes:

[koo_fan]

So, have you sum it up, LB ? haha, quite a rally, huh? You're doing just great, for me. (^_*) Good luck for the next one!

The solution is provided - Get 'em some better players and there will be no China Vs China finals. No chance of match fixing, fake injuries. Solved. What's lingering in my mind now is that - what if China is getting weak, and let say Korea take over, they were said to do the same thing, will we discuss this all over again?

oh well, LYB won't suddenly regretted what he did, i have strong instinct saying so. My problem is that i was not sure if he really did it. and yes, i could not believe anymore, but that wasn't strong enough to prove such claims.

[LazyBuddy]

So, have you sum it up, LB ? haha, quite a rally, huh? You're doing just great, for me. (^_*) Good luck for the next one!




Yes, I give up on this one. Let LYB handle his own business, and let LB relax and enjoy his own life. :D

[skuo2003]

There is a fundamental concept that you are missing here, which is the reason that match fixing is never allowed in any sport. Simply, it hurts the sport because it is denigrating to the audience and the athletes involved. If you are a true badminton fan, and want badminton to become a more global and more popular sport in general, there is absolutely no reason to condone or excuse what Li Yongbo is doing to the sport. He is sacrificing the reputation of badminton to gain victories for the Chinese Team.

Now, I do not know whether Zhao Yunlei's injury was faked in the Malaysia GP, but there has been clear and convincing evidence that match fixing has gone on within the Chinese team. Defending Zhao Yunlei's injury as authentic is one thing, but defending Li Yongbo's antics is another.

You also seem to think that match fixing cannot be prevented, which is ridiculous, considering how little match fixing goes on in other sports. One extreme example to prevent match fixing is simply to suspend players who have been found to engage in such practices.

Sadly, as long as Li Yongbo continues these "tactics," even hardcore badminton fans will continue to see the Chinese team as a joke, let alone outsiders. And if you really want to see badminton some day get the respect it deserves as a sport, you should certainly not be defending his doings.


Ok, LB surrounder here, after going through this kinda waves of debates.

Right now, I am already being labeled as such a person, who can not even figure out whether murder is fault or not. So, be the way you want to believe, and I am pretty powerless to argue now. Well others are all "creditable" even though even as of today, no one still can answer me, why such "creditable" person rather listen to a manager, rather than LYB, ZYL and the team officical medical report.

Like my very early post in this thread, your guys can chop poor LB (with LYB in the same pot) all over the place here, the fact is, CHN continue to produce overall better players, and get their last laugh in most of the major tournaments, whether your guys accept it gladly, or always question about everything LYB said, everything LD did, or any line up they sent.

I was simply trying to point out the fact that the fundamental way to resolve such issue is to "get more competitive players". Whether CHN play clean or dirty, as long as their players will not always meet, then there's no "questions". If you believe the root of problem is the training system / player / coaching staff, then I assume the problem will be fixed or improved. If you believe doing 10 vs. 1 on LB, or 2,000 vs LYB is an easy way out, then be like that. I wish you get a great miracle.

After all, I got flood by tons of reasons (excuses) about population, education, piroity, political structure, economy, tax paying, income, parents, etc. Fine, so, everything goes against your players, and I final feel sorry for you.

Great, just continue be this way, and let's see whether one day LYB will suddenly regreat what he did, or suddenly feel sorry for other players, and the situation will chance. :rolleyes:

[LazyBuddy]

You also seem to think that match fixing cannot be prevented, which is ridiculous, considering how little match fixing goes on in other sports. One extreme example to prevent match fixing is simply to suspend players who have been found to engage in such practices.


Lol... Good luck to spot your evidence.

Actually, the evidence is very clear, as the medical staff already give the official report for the WO. I am not sure how u can get more official of a result than that.

For player like ZYL's level, she can easily give you tons of medical report to show there could be 50 spots within her body either has seriously injury record, or currentlys till under treatment. So, if she's forced to submit a report, her report will just slap BWF's face right on the spot. :cool:

[skuo2003]

I am not familiar with what actually happened at the Malaysia GP so I cannot comment on that specific incident. I will say that a medical report is evidence at some level, but it does not categorically rule out the possibility of match fixing. For example, ATP investigated Nikolay Davydenko's match fixing scandal for over a year, which happened under similar conditions (I am sure he had an official, and probably much more believable, medical report considering he did not play in the several major upcoming tournaments after his injury). At this rate, even if there is much more blatant match fixing and BWF wouldn't do a thing about it (see AE2008).


Lol... Good luck to spot your evidence.

Actually, the evidence is very clear, as the medical staff already give the official report for the WO. I am not sure how u can get more official of a result than that.

For player like ZYL's level, she can easily give you tons of medical report to show there could be 50 spots within her body either has seriously injury record, or currentlys till under treatment. So, if she's forced to submit a report, her report will just slap BWF's face right on the spot. :cool:

[LazyBuddy]

I am not familiar with what actually happened at the Malaysia GP so I cannot comment on that specific incident. I will say that a medical report is evidence at some level, but it does not categorically rule out the possibility of match fixing. For example, ATP investigated Nikolay Davydenko's match fixing scandal for over a year, which happened under similar conditions (I am sure he had an official, and probably much more believable, medical report considering he did not play in the several major upcoming tournaments after his injury). At this rate, even if there is much more blatant match fixing and BWF wouldn't do a thing about it (see AE2008).

I am not debating here, and have no problem that BWF issue any investigations, but just good luck for the result. ;) I would rather save such funding to improve the player's training instead.

[koo_fan]

there is absolutely no reason to condone or excuse what Li Yongbo is doing to the sport. He is sacrificing the reputation of badminton to gain victories for the Chinese Team.


Hye skuo, i will hope there'll be one day, it'd be proven, and we'll give him what he deserve, legally. But one is not guilty until he was proven guilty. Any accusation against him will not be taken as facts without legal proofs. So, i doubt if we can say "He is sacrificing ..". and whether or not BWF had clearly underlined such actions as illegal, i am not sure. No investigations, no?

The best idea is to work on your own players, not others'. But i would hope they can make it clear, "International badminton would not allow match fixing", i've heard outsiders to condemn badminton. ( and yes, they were my friends too).
I would like to say yes, of course China is not arranging matches. but, how would i tell that?

[skuo2003]

Firstly, he has admitted to arranging matches. I think that's plenty of evidence. Secondly, regardless of whether BWF makes it illegal or not, there is no doubt that match fixing hurts a sport's reputation, which can be witnessed by your friend's comments.

My criticism of professional badminton is aimed at BWF as much as it is at the Chinese team, or any other team or player that partakes in such activities. After all, all of them are responsible for the sport's reputation, and so are all of us, so to defend such activities is nonsense (not that I am accusing you of doing so).


Hye skuo, i will hope there'll be one day, it'd be proven, and we'll give him what he deserve, legally. But one is not guilty until he was proven guilty. Any accusation against him will not be taken as facts without legal proofs. So, i doubt if we can say "He is sacrificing ..". and whether or not BWF had clearly underlined such actions as illegal, i am not sure. No investigations, no?

The best idea is to work on your own players, not others'. But i would hope they can make it clear, "International badminton would not allow match fixing", i've heard outsiders to condemn badminton. ( and yes, they were my friends too).
I would like to say yes, of course China is not arranging matches. but, how would i tell that?

[cooler]

Firstly, he has admitted to arranging matches. I think that's plenty of evidence. Secondly, regardless of whether BWF makes it illegal or not, there is no doubt that match fixing hurts a sport's reputation, which can be witnessed by your friend's comments.

My criticism of professional badminton is aimed at BWF as much as it is at the Chinese team, or any other team or player that partakes in such activities. After all, all of them are responsible for the sport's reputation, and so are all of us, so to defend such activities is nonsense (not that I am accusing you of doing so).Correct me if i'm wrong, LYB had admitted to match fixing to only one past tournament (2000 OG). You make it to sound like he fixed them all before, presently and future matches.

Did it hurt badminton really? I thot badminton popularity is increasing.
Isn't it china is anchoring the badminton movement which IOC is afraid to drop badminton from the OG? If u take china out of the equation, would MAS, INA and denmark enough to convince IOC to keep badminton around??? LOL

hint: stop dreaming of the dark side

[limsy]

Correct me if i'm wrong, LYB had admitted to match fixing to only one past tournament (2000 OG). You make it to sound like he fixed them all before, presently and future matches.


oh,is it?which match is that?

[Athelete1234]

He fixed 2004 OG Zhou Mi vs Gong Ruina I think... in the QF because one of them had a better advantage against Mia Audina.

[limsy]

He fixed 2004 OG Zhou Mi vs Gong Ruina I think... in the QF because one of them had a better advantage against Mia Audina.

erm,erm
he is saying 2000 og
something we dont know;)
fishy.
tell us more,cooler.:D
dont tell us that u write wrong/give wrong infomation:)

[limsy]

again,i read a new thing here.
as long as i didnt admit,then i am innocent?:eek:
great,try to teach ur children the concept if u think that is correct.
i saw someone stealing,i saw someone killing
then he didnt admit,no evidence,so he is innocent?
what a wonderful world,with no crime as no one will admit they are against the law
are lyb the one that 1st admit this incident?
or it was zhou mi that tell badzine and then badzine ask lyb?:cool:

[LazyBuddy]

again,i read a new thing here.
as long as i didnt admit,then i am innocent?:eek:
great,try to teach ur children the concept if u think that is correct.
i saw someone stealing,i saw someone killing
then he didnt admit,no evidence,so he is innocent?
what a wonderful world,with no crime as no one will admit they are against the law
are lyb the one that 1st admit this incident?
or it was zhou mi that tell badzine and then badzine ask lyb?:cool:


Great.

So, let say you are a very hard and talented worker. Based on your work load and performance, you deserve to be paid $20 an hour. Me and my gang are lousy works, and no way to match your performance in the office.

However, at the pay day, the boss give everyone the same pay, $5 an hour. You try to complain, saying your work performance is much better than most of us. Then the boss told you, "shhhh... everyone is equal, no complain, need to make everyone happy... otherwise, everyone else refuse to come to work, my company can not continue to function anymore..."

So, what you think by then? Suck the blood and pretend to be happy?

[hcyong]

If there is match-fixing, it can never be proven unless someone involved in the match fix owns up. It's like going to the doctor and say you have a terrible headache or a bad case of diarrhoea (sp?) to get leave from work. No one can say you are lying except for yourself.

[cooler]

again,i read a new thing here.
as long as i didnt admit,then i am innocent?:eek:
great,try to teach ur children the concept if u think that is correct.
i saw someone stealing,i saw someone killing
then he didnt admit,no evidence,so he is innocent?
what a wonderful world,with no crime as no one will admit they are against the law
are lyb the one that 1st admit this incident?
or it was zhou mi that tell badzine and then badzine ask lyb?:cool:were u there in person that witnessed lyb telling their players to fix there match? if not, r u like vip_m who has clairvoyant ability? u should also apply for sainthood too:p Wow, so many blessed ones residing here in BF. We are so blessed.:D

[eaglehelang]

....... or always question about everything LYB said, everything LD did, or any line up they sent.

. :rolleyes:
Hmmm.... the last I read in BC, you(and some LD/China fans) also make a lot of noise/question loads of stuff abt LCW, KKK lah, so you cant complain when others reply back. Same2 lor.

[eaglehelang]

<yawn>Meanwhile, the Msian football players(2008) who were convicted of "match fixing" must be nicely enjoying their free food & accomodation in jail. And the lawn bowling official (2009 case) who ordered 2 players to lose vs team mate also having nice time. :p
Just replace "official" with "Msia badminton coach",preferably with some tape recording & other witnesses, super big case already. In capitalist society, somewhere along the line, there'll be someone who'll be the whistle blower.

[cooler]

again,i read a new thing here.
as long as i didnt admit,then i am innocent?:eek:
great,try to teach ur children the concept if u think that is correct.
i saw someone stealing,i saw someone killing
then he didnt admit,no evidence,so he is innocent?
what a wonderful world,with no crime as no one will admit they are against the law
are lyb the one that 1st admit this incident?
or it was zhou mi that tell badzine and then badzine ask lyb?:cool:let me give u a simple example of your logic.

Player A is a beginner player who always has been using cheapo/fake rackets. One day, he came in to play with a brand new NS9900 racket. U say, wow, it can't be real, he can't afford it, plus that racket doesn't suits him at all. He never owned an expensive racket before. U checked it and its' real. So u concluded that he must of stole it or stole money to buy it. That's what u saw limsy, only the result, and u labled him guilty of theft or some of criminal act.

[LazyBuddy]

Hmmm.... the last I read in BC, you(and some LD/China fans) also make a lot of noise/question loads of stuff abt LCW, KKK lah, so you cant complain when others reply back. Same2 lor.


If you ever read all my posts, I will say over 95% of the time I talked about LCW or Koo are on the positive side. On the other hand, I was one of the first group to comment on LD's racket throwing incident, and I am one of the 1st few said that LD indeed own an apology.

And, from when I am a LD fan? More than once in the public, I said I do think he has superior skill, but I do not like his personality. If you can trace back to my quotes, my favorite MS player is XXZ, and PG as a closer 2nd. My favorite WS player is Susi and GZC.

Please do not just partially quote my comments. :cool:

[HaoFung]

Why is there a discussion about this?

1. Match fixing exists but it cant be stopped
2. Stop complaining and start beating the Chinese players so they dont play each other all the time
3. For China, badminton is a chess game for world domination and players are just pawns, so having a strategy to improve your chances of winning is understandable

[Wong8Egg]

Why is there a discussion about this?

1. Match fixing exists but it cant be stopped
2. Stop complaining and start beating the Chinese players so they dont play each other all the time
3. For China, badminton is a chess game for world domination and players are just pawns, so having a strategy to improve your chances of winning is understandable

How dare you.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[skuo2003]

Correct me if i'm wrong, LYB had admitted to match fixing to only one past tournament (2000 OG). You make it to sound like he fixed them all before, presently and future matches.

Did it hurt badminton really? I thot badminton popularity is increasing.
Isn't it china is anchoring the badminton movement which IOC is afraid to drop badminton from the OG? If u take china out of the equation, would MAS, INA and denmark enough to convince IOC to keep badminton around??? LOL

hint: stop dreaming of the dark side

I think anyone who has reasoning abilities above a 14 year old understands why match fixing hurts a sport. Your statements concerning China and the IOC are irrelevant to the argument at hand. I am not denying the importance of China as a part of the global badminton community, but that does not mean I, or any other real badminton fan, should condone some of the things they do.


let me give u a simple example of your logic.

Player A is a beginner player who always has been using cheapo/fake rackets. One day, he came in to play with a brand new NS9900 racket. U say, wow, it can't be real, he can't afford it, plus that racket doesn't suits him at all. He never owned an expensive racket before. U checked it and its' real. So u concluded that he must of stole it or stole money to buy it. That's what u saw limsy, only the result, and u labled him guilty of theft or some of criminal act.

Under those circumstances, it would be perfectly reasonable to suspect something like that, especially if that individual has had a past record of doing so. Based on those suspicions, an investigation would take place to search for evidence, and if evidence is found, he would be guilty.

You (and a few others) are alleging that we want to penalize the Chinese team based on recent behavior, but that's not the point we are trying to make. It is a given that there needs to be evidence in order to convict an individual or a team of match fixing, and then to penalize that team or individual. And there are certainly ways to find out whether match fixing has occurred--look at the 2006 Italian Series A football scandal. Juventus FC did not get relegated to Series B for no reason.



If there is match-fixing, it can never be proven unless someone involved in the match fix owns up. It's like going to the doctor and say you have a terrible headache or a bad case of diarrhoea (sp?) to get leave from work. No one can say you are lying except for yourself.

If this were true, nobody could ever be convicted of anything in court.



1. Match fixing exists but it cant be stopped
2. Stop complaining and start beating the Chinese players so they dont play each other all the time
3. For China, badminton is a chess game for world domination and players are just pawns, so having a strategy to improve your chances of winning is understandable1. Match fixing exists, but yes it can be stopped; it requires some effort on the part of everyone, but how rare match fixing occurs in major sport leagues around the world is a testament to the fact that it can certainly be prevented.

2. I think a more effective method is to start complaining more so that the BWF will take action against match fixing.

3. Yes, having a strategy to improve your chances of winning is understandable. However, having a strategy that undermines the integrity of the sport is inexcusable.

[LazyBuddy]

1. Match fixing exists, but yes it can be stopped; it requires some effort on the part of everyone, but how rare match fixing occurs in major sport leagues around the world is a testament to the fact that it can certainly be prevented.


Well, maybe u do not call such cases as "match fixing".

In any major league sports, once playoff seedings are locked, teams tend to rest all stars, and play the benches. As a result, the opponents usually receive an easy W. So, any other teams can accuse such as "match fixing", as they either intentionally, or un-intentionally effected the outcome of playoff seedings or berth.

Did anyone accuse such teams to "take it easy" on their opponents, which result the 3rd party team lose the seeding or berth? Well, guess not.

Another good example is "playoff no hope" team, tend to tank the games, to increase its chance to lue higher lottery picks. Of course, you can say it's fishy fishy, as it's another type of "match fixing" (fix to lose)... However, it's almost impossible to officially give any punishment.

[cooler]

1. I think anyone who has reasoning abilities above a 14 year old understands why match fixing hurts a sport. Your statements concerning China and the IOC are irrelevant to the argument at hand. I am not denying the importance of China as a part of the global badminton community, but that does not mean I, or any other real badminton fan, should condone some of the things they do.

2.Under those circumstances, it would be perfectly reasonable to suspect something like that, especially if that individual has had a past record of doing so. Based on those suspicions, an investigation would take place to search for evidence, and if evidence is found, he would be guilty.

3. You (and a few others) are alleging that we want to penalize the Chinese team based on recent behavior, but that's not the point we are trying to make. It is a given that there needs to be evidence in order to convict an individual or a team of match fixing, and then to penalize that team or individual. And there are certainly ways to find out whether match fixing has occurred--look at the 2006 Italian Series A football scandal. Juventus FC did not get relegated to Series B for no reason.

.

1. You are making a broad statement. Team spirit and cooperation are some of the noble and endeared qualities for the mainland chineses. I believe Japan culture also embrace team spirit highly. Only the western culture pushes individuality as supreme. Therefore, u should go ask some 14 years kids IN CHINA before making such broad generalized statement.

2. Then, a investigation should be conducted with a decisive finding before condeming the alleged party. In a court of law, past records are only use as character profiling, it is not enough to convict the alleged party without a shred of evidence.

3. U r mixing with match fixing cases from international sports (ex. baseball, soccer,etc) to badminton. However, there are some big differences. First, china alleged badminton fixings do not involve monetary gain or betting. Neither LYB or his players betted or made money from their game plan. If u look at most of the alleged fixings involved olympic game and WC events, these have no $$ prizes. Secondly, the alleged china fixings involved their OWN team/players where as in soccer and baseball fixing scandals, they involved betting of player/team/country of different origin. I think this is a HUGE difference. So, don't smear the dark side of other sport fixing to alleged china vs china fixing that involved no betting or exchange of money. Like what lazybuddy said, it is similar to a soccer team resting their best players in early rounds so to minimize injury to them before the big matches.

[cooler]

badminton is a beautiful game but not yet an international mainstream sport so its rules are not yet fully scrutinized by the mass audience until recently as it is getting popular. No sports have perfect rules but highly popular sports like golf, basketball, baseball, soccer have had their rules modified enough such that their rules much more efficient(ie, less flaws or loop holes) than badminton.

In badminton, we still have grey area in line judging, some rules can be more refined, air draft affecting player's accuracy, and what have you. To make the game better, we should refine the other weakness in the rule first before attacking the flaws of potential match fixing which is the hardest to 'fix' and it has minimal impact to the end result anyway.

to be cont.

[george@chongwei]

cooler cooler, relax relax..u really need some 'demerol' now:D;)
lazybuddy, do you want some?:(:D

[viver]

3. U r mixing with match fixing cases from international sports (ex. baseball, soccer,etc) to badminton. However, there are some big differences. First, china alleged badminton fixings do not involve monetary gain or betting. Neither LYB or his players betted or made money from their game plan. If u look at most of the alleged fixings involved olympic game and WC events, these have no $$ prizes. Secondly, the alleged china fixings involved their OWN team/players where as in soccer and baseball fixing scandals, they involved betting of player/team/country of different origin. I think this is a HUGE difference. So, don't smear the dark side of other sport fixing to alleged china vs china fixing that involved no betting or exchange of money. Like what lazybuddy said, it is similar to a soccer team resting their best players in early rounds so to minimize injury to them before the big matches.

You should have included F1 in your lists of sports.

[LazyBuddy]

cooler cooler, relax relax..u really need some 'demerol' now:D;)
lazybuddy, do you want some?:(:D


I am way too relax now. I try not to get into heated debate here. ;) Whatever I can say, is already said. It's down to others choose to listen or not. ;)

[cooler]

cooler cooler, relax relax..u really need some 'demerol' now:D;)
lazybuddy, do you want some?:(:D
i am very relaxed. I'm slowly trotting to the home base 'waving my left hand' and drinking bubble tea from my right hand:):) Demerol is reserved for the complainers:p I suggest extra dosage for them as they seem to be in pain alot given that china is winning alot:p

[skuo2003]

LazyBuddy: I do not think the examples you posted are analogous to what is happening. I will explain more on this below.

cooler: You should bear in mind that badminton is an individual sport, not a team sport. Obviously, if it were a team sport, or the competition were based in a team format, then I would have no complaint at all, because the unit is the team. However, in badminton competitions, the winner is an individual.

Here's why it makes a difference: Lin Dan has won four All-England titles. Now let us suppose he could have won another one if not for the interference of the coaches. Fifty years from now, some player X is a fast and rising star and is approaching Lin Dan's domination of the MS field. But when Lin Dan is compared to player X, he will have one fewer AE title than he should have had. Fifty years from now, nobody will remember what he did not win, but only what he has won. The point is this: you are taking away from the athletic achievements of those athletes when you tell them to take it easy in important matches (Aside: this is why it is not analogous to having a team that didn't make the playoffs tank games at the end of the season; I would not call those matches to have been fixed.)

Another, perhaps more poignant, example is Zhou Mi and the 2004 Olympics. The Chinese team essentially took away her chance of winning an Olympics--a once-in-four-year tournament. Now, she probably will never win an Olympic title. For any athlete who was told that, they would probably start to question whether their careers have a point. The idea of sports in general is to provide a grounds for fair competition, and when coaches interfere with fair competition and diminish the athletic accomplishments of players who have put their life into the sport, you have to wonder whether there is a point in becoming a professional player in the first place. Match fixing is hurtful to any sport because it is against the spirit of sports, and to be any kind of professional athlete, you definitely have to believe in that spirit.

That is why match fixing is condemned from an athletics point of view. From the audience's point of view, I know you keep insisting that it has minimal impact. My experience with badminton fans tells me otherwise. Li Yongbo has already alienated many, many Chinese badminton fans from what he has done (me being one myself--I'm not sure why you assumed I am not Chinese; after all, we do represent the largest proportion of the world population). Now, consider how fans of badminton from other countries think of the Chinese team. And most importantly, think of how outsiders would view the team and the sport. Frankly, if Li Yongbo really wanted to persist in his ways, he should do it more discretely rather than telling the media about it.

[limsy]

Great.

So, let say you are a very hard and talented worker. Based on your work load and performance, you deserve to be paid $20 an hour. Me and my gang are lousy works, and no way to match your performance in the office.

However, at the pay day, the boss give everyone the same pay, $5 an hour. You try to complain, saying your work performance is much better than most of us. Then the boss told you, "shhhh... everyone is equal, no complain, need to make everyone happy... otherwise, everyone else refuse to come to work, my company can not continue to function anymore..."

So, what you think by then? Suck the blood and pretend to be happy?

why give me asumption?:confused:
we suspect match fixing long time ago,and zhou mi statement is just to comfirm ours suspectation.
that is proof.
anyway,if u didnt get my point,mean my english is not good enough to let u understand. case close for that.:(
the same word i want to say:we didnt do bad thing because it is bad,and not because we will be punished.
guide urself by moral and not law,we arent animal nor uncivilised ancient human.
many acknowledge match fixing is incorrect and hurting the sport,but some doesnt.
and i am one of those that cant accept match fixing.
everyone guideline is different,one can accept robbing/stealing is a way to earn money and others cant.
i wont persuade anyone to follow my guideline,this is just a wasting time act.

[viver]

why give me asumption?:confused:
we suspect match fixing long time ago,and zhou mi statement is just to comfirm ours suspectation.
that is proof.
anyway,if u didnt get my point,mean my english is not good enough to let u understand. case close for that.:(
the same word i want to say:we didnt do bad thing because it is bad,and not because we will be punished.
guide urself by moral and not law,we arent animal nor uncivilised ancient human.
many acknowledge match fixing is incorrect and hurting the sport,but some doesnt.
and i am one of those that cant accept match fixing.
everyone guideline is different,one can accept robbing/stealing is a way to earn money and others cant.
i wont persuade anyone to follow my guideline,this is just a wasting time act.

Can you tell what Zhou Mi said or indicate links about her story? Thanks.

[limsy]

Can you tell what Zhou Mi said or indicate links about her story? Thanks.

just have a look in badzine website:)
i am surprise that there is someone that dont know about this incident in bc

[viver]

just have a look in badzine website:)
i am surprise that there is someone that dont know about this incident in bc

But can't find anything about Zhou Mi and match fixing ... :confused: I mean where did she confirm that matches were fixed?

[jasonmarc]

Viver pls check this link.........

http://www.badzine.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1472:editorial-china-out-of-ss-finals-shooting-itself-in-the-foot-&catid=19:main-feature&Itemid=51

just read thru.....'lyb publicly admitted.......' enjoy ur self...

[LazyBuddy]

Another, perhaps more poignant, example is Zhou Mi and the 2004 Olympics. The Chinese team essentially took away her chance of winning an Olympics--a once-in-four-year tournament. Now, she probably will never win an Olympic title. For any athlete who was told that, they would probably start to question whether their careers have a point. The idea of sports in general is to provide a grounds for fair competition, and when coaches interfere with fair competition and diminish the athletic accomplishments of players who have put their life into the sport, you have to wonder whether there is a point in becoming a professional player in the first place.


Great, then ask why Chen Yu did not even get a chance to participate in ANY OG in his life time? Don't you think player as such deserve even more answers? Who took his chances away? CY has absolute 10,000 reasons to scream his lung out about "what's the point for his career"? And now, he definitely won't have a chance to even participate.

XXZ, XXF were WC champion and runner up in WC2003, less than 1 year from OG04. So, why certain rulez taking away such players "once in 4 years" chances?

So, how fair a competition can be, when it promotes "best of the best", then the WC champion, runner up, MS top 10 all do not even get a ticket. :rolleyes:

[LazyBuddy]

we suspect match fixing long time ago,and zhou mi statement is just to comfirm ours suspectation.
that is proof.


I am sick and tired that ppl thinking players like ZM or CH are "brave fighter for freedom".

Seriously, I really suspect what's their real intention when they "confirm" whatever incidents. Tell me, why it takes them 15-20 years to realize "that's not good"? If they strongly does not like such ideas, why the hell they stay in the team for like 20 years? :rolleyes:

The reason is, when they were on the top, they are the ones receiving the benefits. They like the system sooooo much, and they are enjoying. When they found out it's their turn to give up, man, the big sour grape just blooming. So, let's polish the "sour grape" with a polished cover of "freedom". There you go.

If ZM made such a statement when she's like 15, way before being WS#1, I will think she's my hero. After I certainly does not think it needs to take her 20 years to figure out "what's wrong, what's right". So, make the statement when you "can not win", then, well...

[LazyBuddy]

cooler: You should bear in mind that badminton is an individual sport, not a team sport. Obviously, if it were a team sport, or the competition were based in a team format, then I would have no complaint at all, because the unit is the team. However, in badminton competitions, the winner is an individual.

Whether it's individual or team sports, we also debated for years already.

Let me ask you, Tour De France is considered as individual sports, but Lance Armstrong public thank his teamates for "Team strategy" to help him win the final champion. Same thing as Car racing. Many such involve team play such as "blocking", "leading horse", etc. Tour De France only gives the trophy to the champion, but everyone know no single rider can win without teammates' help and sacrifies.

Even individual sports such as diving, gymnastics have "team strategy". If more than 1 player get into the final. Whoever the younger, less chance winner will usually boost up the difficulties. If s/he finishes well, then s/he will win. Even if s/he fails, they are dragging the difficulties standard very high, which gives opponents great pressure to following, which easier to create their own mistakes. So, their teammate will get a better chance to win.

So, do you consider all the above team or individual? :rolleyes:

[viver]

Viver pls check this link.........

http://www.badzine.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1472:editorial-china-out-of-ss-finals-shooting-itself-in-the-foot-&catid=19:main-feature&Itemid=51

just read thru.....'lyb publicly admitted.......' enjoy ur self...

Jason, thank you for the link. There's nothing new in the article and I still could not find where Zhou Mi confirms the match fixing.

[cooler]

Viver pls check this link.........

http://www.badzine.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1472:editorial-china-out-of-ss-finals-shooting-itself-in-the-foot-&catid=19:main-feature&Itemid=51

just read thru.....'lyb publicly admitted.......' enjoy ur self...
hey, no denying that from me. Remember, LYB asked ZM to lose but whether ZM complied or not we are not certain.


Was it 100% fixed since as some of u have said, on those alleged match, the player who lost the 1st set must give up the 2nd set. So, if ZM want to be in the WS final, she can if she had beaten ZN in the 1st set of the SF but ZM didn't. ZN won the 1st set over ZM by 11-6, hardly a close scoring set.
On the 2nd set ZM lost. Did she complied to lyb's request or did she REALLY failed to beat ZN on the 2nd set (4-11)?

i forgot, did ZM quit or got fired from the china team?

Why couldn't a coach reserve the rights to pick certain player to achieve his end goal like they can in basketball, baseball, volleyball, hockey?

[Athelete1234]

Jason, thank you for the link. There's nothing new in the article and I still could not find where Zhou Mi confirms the match fixing.
http://www.badzine.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=931:li-yongbo-admits-olympic-set-up&catid=8:international&Itemid=39

There's a better article, though Zhou Mi still doesn't say anything about it.

[viver]

http://www.badzine.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=931:li-yongbo-admits-olympic-set-up&catid=8:international&Itemid=39

There's a better article, though Zhou Mi still doesn't say anything about it.

I have said in the past that LYB was the ONLY one that said was done to the matches. This is not new and as you said you can't find anything to confirm Zhou Mi's part.

[cooler]

cooler: You should bear in mind that badminton is an individual sport, not a team sport. Obviously, if it were a team sport, or the competition were based in a team format, then I would have no complaint at all, because the unit is the team. However, in badminton competitions, the winner is an individual.

Here's why it makes a difference: Lin Dan has won four All-England titles. Now let us suppose he could have won another one if not for the interference of the coaches. Fifty years from now, some player X is a fast and rising star and is approaching Lin Dan's domination of the MS field. But when Lin Dan is compared to player X, he will have one fewer AE title than he should have had. Fifty years from now, nobody will remember what he did not win, but only what he has won. The point is this: you are taking away from the athletic achievements of those athletes when you tell them to take it easy in important matches (Aside: this is why it is not analogous to having a team that didn't make the playoffs tank games at the end of the season; I would not call those matches to have been fixed.)



i think u r naive and too idealistic, talking all this motherhood and apple pie stuff, telling the chinese pro players what's really good for them lol.

I have to assumed that u haven't read my discussion on this topic in other threads before so i'll repeat it again with some more additonal comments.

First, u see things black and white. Reality is, china players play for the CHINA TEAM, be it in MS, WS, MD, WD, XD. Second, u as a fan may see badminton as individual sport, however, many other fans don't be see it your ways. U did not prove to me that u have 100% audience acceptance of your idealistic view. It had been shown by other sport examples (cycling, F1 racings) that distinction between team and individual sports can be a blurry one. Third, in Olympic games, WC(a pseudo olympic when badminton wasn't a olympic sport), TC/UC, sudirman cup, winners are more recognized by their country, not player. To me, these high profile games promote country/team unity more so than individual professionlism.
Even when Saina Nehwal won the WS in 09 INA open, she draped herself the India flag, and this isn't even the olympic game, an INA Open which individual performance realm supreme but she saw it as an achievement for her country as well. U can't get a bigger team than a whole country.

Only few sportmans can be truly labeled as individual pro that represent themselves only. Some like tiger wood, federer, and now taufik are good example of real individual pro. Zhou mi quit (or got booted out) the team so she can play like a freelance pro, that's her choice but there are 100X more chinese WS players who want to play for the china TEAM. It's not just china, the pros from MAS, INA, Denmark, etc can QUIT their team and go play like a true pro taufik and zhou mi. Go ask them, why don't they?

[cooler]

Another, perhaps more poignant, example is Zhou Mi and the 2004 Olympics. The Chinese team essentially took away her chance of winning an Olympics--a once-in-four-year tournament. Now, she probably will never win an Olympic title. For any athlete who was told that, they would probably start to question whether their careers have a point. The idea of sports in general is to provide a grounds for fair competition, and when coaches interfere with fair competition and diminish the athletic accomplishments of players who have put their life into the sport, you have to wonder whether there is a point in becoming a professional player in the first place. Match fixing is hurtful to any sport because it is against the spirit of sports, and to be any kind of professional athlete, you definitely have to believe in that spirit.


did ZM really missed her chance to be an olympic champ? U make it sound like she would win the gold when she can't even take the 1st set from Z. Ning in the SF. A chance yes, but less than 50% chance against ZN and another 50/50 chance against mia audina. Do u know how probability is calculated? U said 'Now, she probably will never win an Olympic title.' Since she quit the team, i think that's her choice of forfeiting her 2nd chance. Since 2008 OG WS final is an all chinese, ZM could win the title if she stayed around.

[LazyBuddy]

After hundreds of posts and hundreds of topics, still no single person can answer my questions about how much sacrifies players such as CY, XXF, XXZ put in for the sport and current structure.

After LYB and his team got flammed after every single tournament, poor guy like CY's situation is hardly ever been touched... Now, let's talk about the "fairness" or "individual". :o

Also, other missing answers including why players such as ZM, CH, etc need to take 20 years or so to finally "fight for freedom", when they were clearly no more at their peak, at least from their formal team competition / training perspective. So, when you are good, you stick with a team, be its god or evil. When you are not as good, you suddenly think individual will give yourself more chance? Well, great... Everything has to work around you, and has to be adjusted based on your like...

[viver]

Cooler and LB,

I think you may have missed 1 small detail - in badminton, the invitation to participate in an international tournament is addressed to the national badminton association/federation and not to the players. This was the procedure and I am not sure if it has changed.

And regarding sports, I see sport as an activity we enjoy doing and often for health reasons. High level sports is not done for enjoyment reason and much less for health. Benefits have to be quantifiable - i.e. don't think Real Madrid hired C. Ronaldo just because of his looks and skills.

[cooler]

Cooler and LB,

I think you may have missed 1 small detail - in badminton, the invitation to participate in an international tournament is addressed to the national badminton association/federation and not to the players. This was the procedure and I am not sure if it has changed.

And regarding sports, I see sport as an activity we enjoy doing and often for health reasons. High level sports is not done for enjoyment reason and much less for health. Benefits have to be quantifiable - i.e. don't think Real Madrid hired C. Ronaldo just because of his looks and skills.

even better, you reinforces my point, that badminton isn't a true individual sport as skuo2003 asserted to be. I also have said before that Opens, although not perfect, are the best gauge of player's individual talent.

[koo_fan]

even better, you reinforces my point, that badminton isn't a true individual sport as skuo2003 asserted to be. I also have said before that Opens, although not perfect, are the best gauge of player's individual talent.
a'ha cooler, pardon my question. so, you suggest that all the 'fake injuries' are merely team strategy? thus, it should be non of others' business?

[viver]

'Fake injuries' with the tournament doctor's certification are valid and certified injuries. ;)

[limsy]

'Fake injuries' with the tournament doctor's certification are valid and certified injuries. ;)

great,haha
u mean u can break the law when u have the help from police:eek:

[viver]

great,haha
u mean u can break the law when u have the help from police:eek:

And do you have the evidence that the police helped and broke the law? :rolleyes:

[cooler]

a'ha cooler, pardon my question. so, you suggest that all the 'fake injuries' are merely team strategy? thus, it should be non of others' business?from all the supposed 'fake' injuries, can u show me just 1 fake injury that i can believe in? So if ZYL didn't stop playing from the supposed fake injury, and ma jin got to play longer, would this really gonna prevented the crushing of CEH/WPT by ma jin/XW?.

[jasonmarc]

from all the supposed 'fake' injuries, can u show me just 1 fake injury that i can believe in? So if ZYL didn't stop playing from the supposed fake injury, and ma jin got to play longer, would this really gonna prevented the crushing of CEH/WPT by ma jin/XW?.

No body can tell for sure.....maybe ..yes....CEH/WPT may crush MJ/XL :p instead....;)

[koo_fan]

from all the supposed 'fake' injuries, can u show me just 1 fake injury that i can believe in? So if ZYL didn't stop playing from the supposed fake injury, and ma jin got to play longer, would this really gonna prevented the crushing of CEH/WPT by ma jin/XW?.
Well sir, that's why we called it 'fake'. No one can actually disprove or approve these claims. I would leave China Team as innocent rather than claiming them as guilty without proofs. My doubt is, if they really did the arrangement, would we only consider those as team strategy? I am aware of what happen in F1 and Tour De France. It's the same case here in badminton, huh? I don't know if it is permissable, though we do consider badminton as a team sport rather than an individual sport.

[LazyBuddy]

I think you may have missed 1 small detail - in badminton, the invitation to participate in an international tournament is addressed to the national badminton association/federation and not to the players. This was the procedure and I am not sure if it has changed.


Very true.

So, for players like ZM or CH, if they are really "freedom lover", why they can not quit the system they do not like, and go somewhere else like players such as PHY, XHW, etc did, AT A MUCH EARLIER AGE? PHY and XHW and others can leave for whatever reason, and I am sure ZM and CH can do the same, especially when they were younger, and did not get to the top yet.

If they truely prefer total freedom, they do not need to wait until 25+ to just understand the system, right? Something is very fishy here... :rolleyes:

[george@chongwei]

LB, still hunting this thread?:D
come one, take some rest:)

[LazyBuddy]

LB, still hunting this thread?:D
come one, take some rest:)

I am very calm right now, compare to a few days ago. Just try to provide a bit more details on top of other posts. No more wording exchanges. :D

[george@chongwei]

I am very calm right now, compare to a few days ago. Just try to provide a bit more details on top of other posts. No more wording exchanges. :D
That's good, keep it slow and steady then:):p

[ctjcad]

I am very calm right now, compare to a few days ago. Just try to provide a bit more details on top of other posts. No more wording exchanges. :D
..polis (the thread starter, who made only 2 posts in this thread) is probaby sitting there, drinking his cup of tea, chewing on his biscuits and laughing while reading all of the posts...:o:p

[lcleing]

@ctjcad

Is ok. I am very sure that most of the active posters in this thread will agree with me that they have plenty of time to participate in this so-called "discussion". Since they have so much time to spare, why don't sit back, relax(like what the thread starter do) and enjoy this magnificent piece of work(this thread) which had been jointly crafted by all those people who have too much free time on their hands.:)

[jasonmarc]

amazing,.....named as LazyBuddy..but very obviously not lazy posting in this thread....hehehehe

[cooler]

amazing,.....named as LazyBuddy..but very obviously not lazy posting in this thread....hehehehe
lol, maybe LB has someone else writes for him, u know, to fake out those bolehians:p

[george@chongwei]

lol, maybe LB has someone else writes for him, u know, to fake out those bolehians:p
what has this got to do with the so called bolehians.? the thread owner, and also the discussion starter is polis and is from china though:D:p;)
so should be something wrong with add oil jia you fans..:D