I have asked this question before in other thread, but has not caught any attention, and no answer. That's the reason I think it deserves a new thread:

why Ma Jin / Wang Xiaoli is the 6th seed ? :confused::confused::confused:

Their ranking is about 16th? right? How come they jump to the 6 seed?

any one can explain? I have waited anxiously for weeks, but no answer yet.

thanks a lot in advance.

..i just saw your query yesterday...:p;)

Anyway, to answer your question, it might be a bit complicated. But you can read it, slowly, here (starting with Regulation 12):

http://internationalbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=11633

12.5 The seeding of the draw at all BWF-sanctioned events shall be done using the most recently published World Ranking. In each event, the entry which is ranked highest shall be seeded number 1, and the next highest number 2, and so on until all seeds required by Regulation 12.7 are decided.

12.6 Before implementing Regulation 12.5 in doubles events in which the BWF does the seeding, the World Ranking of each pair who did not compete together for the 12 months preceding the ranking period shall be modified for seeding purposes when Regulation 12.6.1 or 12.6.2 applies. (For explanation please refer to Part III – Section 1 B, Appendix 7.)

12.6.1 If a pair has no World Ranking, a notional ranking is calculated for the pair. An average (the "notional" average) is taken of the best average points scored by each of the two players with other partners. This notional average is converted into the total notional points for the pair by multiplying by 10 and taking 80%. The notional points are used to determine a notional ranking.

12.6.2 If the two players have a World Ranking as a pair but have competed in fewer than eight events in the 52 week period, an adjusted ranking is produced by taking the pair’s World Ranking points and adjusting as follows:
(please see link above for the table diagram)

12.6.3 The resulting notional ranking as in 12.6.1 or adjusted ranking as in 12.6.2 is used to determine the seeding position.

12.6.4 A pair may have a seeding from one to four on the basis of any World Ranking but a seeding no higher than five based on any notional ranking and / or adjusted ranking. However, if the number of players / pairs having world ranking is less than the permissible number of seeding places, all the seeding can be based on the notional or adjusted world ranking

thanks ctjcad (what's the meaning of your name? very difficult to spell and pronounce) for answering my question, but I got more confused.

I saw on the following official page,

http://internationalbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=13129

Ma Jin / Wang Xiao Li ranked as 18th. You were trying to teach me how to calculate the ranking points. I don't think it's my job to study their rules to calculate myself, instead, it's their (World badminton organization's) responsiblity to calculate the ranking.

Could you just give me the ranking which MJ/WXL is at 6th, where is the URL for the ranking? thanks again.

I also wondering why MJ/WXL listed as 6th seed,
Those regulation even make me more confused :confused: (still digesting on it)
Had bwf use notional instead of World Rankings,
why place MJ/WXL as high as 6th seed?
They've been pairing quite some time, and this year win 3 GPG level tourney,
but still, i guess they would come to WC as unseeded players (upz)
Different case if, let's say, Du Jing paired w/ ZYW or Zheng Bo paired w/ YY
.....
But hey, math ain't my virtue
Maybe ctjcad or somebody else can explain this in much simpler way, please?
Hahaha, LOL :cool:

...indeed, i was trying to understand the regulation also but still hasn't sunk it, yet..:p
thanks ctjcad (what's the meaning of your name? very difficult to spell and pronounce) for answering my question, but I got more confused.

I saw on the following official page,

http://internationalbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=13129

Ma Jin / Wang Xiao Li ranked as 18th. You were trying to teach me how to calculate the ranking points. I don't think it's my job to study their rules to calculate myself, instead, it's their (World badminton organization's) responsiblity to calculate the ranking.

Could you just give me the ranking which MJ/WXL is at 6th, where is the URL for the ranking? thanks again.
- No problem. There's no meaning to my screen-name. Yes, quite difficult.:p But i guess you don't have to pronounce it; none of the other members' screen-names are supposed to be pronounceable either.;)
- Yes, i understand; i was just giving a reference to how they (BWF) might've done the seeding. Neither it's supposed to be my job to study or calculate or figure out how the WC seeding works. Another example is in the XD. If you check out Robert Mateusiak & Nadiezda Kostiuczyk' (POL) current WR and their WC seeding, you'll see the same scenario.
- I'm sorry, unfortunately i don't have any URL link for their WC seeding. The draw is what we have. #6 ranking is their WC seeding, per this tourney only, not their WR ranking.
- My guess is, they went with the regulation 12.6.2 to calculate how to seed the pairs.

What it actually means is that if both players in a pair hasn't had full mileage (which is normally 8-10 tournaments' best results in a calendar year), individual pts taken by each player even when she/he plays with someone else will be calculated using BWF's confusing formula, to derive an equivalent ranking had the two players played together.

And since Ma Jin had had terribly good results in her tournaments, this gives a lot of advantage to the Ma Jin/Wang Xiaoli partnership.

...indeed, i was trying to understand the regulation also but still hasn't sunk it, yet..:p


Hahaha just kidding, LOL :cool:
I don't mean to intentionally push you
maybe we should try to figure out those confusing regulation together
Abedeng answer's quite understandable,
But still, i found those formula quite hard to digest ,-P

What it actually means is that if both players in a pair hasn't had full mileage (which is normally 8-10 tournaments' best results in a calendar year), individual pts taken by each player even when she/he plays with someone else will be calculated using BWF's confusing formula, to derive an equivalent ranking had the two players played together.

And since Ma Jin had had terribly good results in her tournaments, this gives a lot of advantage to the Ma Jin/Wang Xiaoli partnership.

Thanks for the info, it clears up some clouds ,-) :cool:
So, Ma Jin individual points came from both event (WD and XD) she played so far?
Previously i thought BWF only consider WR pts per player/pairs per event,
If that's the case, no wonder that:
MJ lotta pts + WXL pts = #6 seed WD
......
What if i make such analogy as follow:
Lets say, had JungJaeSung had paired and played some tourney with LeeKyungWon,
they will placed as high seeding also
Is that right?
Hehehe LOL :confused: :confused:

I believe only WD results are counted. You can't count WD and XD results for WD seeding, it would not make much sense. But this is not formally clarified in BWF rules.

Basically, MJ/WXL play less than 8 tournaments. They had very good results in those events. After adjusted their score ( by IBF ) , they were seeded 6.

But all WD seeded players must be relieve when MJ/WXL got seeded. It will be no fun for any seeded players to play them in round 1 or 2.

Very simple. Ma Jin/Wang Xiaoli only participated in 5 tourneys, so, their ranking pts are adjusted to be = (30,550/5) x 10 = 61,100. The same goes for Du Jing/Yu Yang. Their adjusted ranking pts are: 85,962. In that way, apart from the top 4 pairs (who are seeded 1-4 respectively), Du Jing/Yu Yang and Ma Jin/Wang Xiaoli have the highest notational ranking pts.

Since the rules above state that pairs with notational ranking pts cannot be seeded higher than 5th, naturally, the 2 CHN pairs will be seeded 5th and 6th respectively (even though their notational ranking pts are much higher than the top 4 pairs).

Wheeew,
seems like i made a fatal misjudgement here ,-(
Like i said earlier, math ain't my virtue
and combined with confusing regulation, only make me get lost in twilight zone
Hehehe LOL ,-D
......
Anyway thanks to @ abedeng, hcpoirot and badMania for the explanation ,-)
:cool: :cool: :cool:
It clears up any confusion (esp. mine, i guess) Haha
.....
Well, with their current state & seedings,
will the 2oo6 WJC pair Ma Jin/Wang Xiaoli eventually become 2oo9 World Champion?

hope it can make u understand.
http://www.geocities.com/binbin007911/wd-seeding.JPG

Wheeew,
seems like i made a fatal misjudgement here ,-(
Like i said earlier, math ain't my virtue
and combined with confusing regulation, only make me get lost in twilight zone
Hehehe LOL ,-D
...
..it's not so much abt knowing math or not; this is not trigonometry or calculus..;)
It's all about seeing & using the regulation formula table and taking a bit of time to calculate, add up & compare the points for all the pairs. That's all it is.

Btw, thanks to those who'd spent the extra time to do the calculations and explanations.:cool:

thanks BinBin007911 (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=13317), your calculation is what I want. thanks a lot.

but I am still confused, why this corrected ranking is not public available? InternationalBadminton.org should provide the calculation for the world championship, they cannot expect all of us as knowledge as BinBin007911 (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=13317) who is the only one even here capable of calculating this ranking

The corrected ranking is not always used, only for BWF tournament seeding purposes. It would be a waste of time for BWF to apply corrected ranking every week.

The corrected ranking cannot substitute for actual ranking.

Thank you so much!
It actually clear up any confusion (esp. mine)
Hehehe :)

..it's not so much abt knowing math or not; this is not trigonometry or calculus..;)
It's all about seeing & using the regulation formula table and taking a bit of time to calculate, add up & compare the points for all the pairs. That's all it is.


There are still calculation involved here
So i guess it still related to math ;)
Gahhh i hate math
Haha :p

thanks BinBin007911 (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=13317), your calculation is what I want. thanks a lot.

but I am still confused, why this corrected ranking is not public available? InternationalBadminton.org should provide the calculation for the world championship, they cannot expect all of us as knowledge as BinBin007911 (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=13317) who is the only one even here capable of calculating this ranking
- Everyone wants to see an automatic calculation of the seedings for every tourney. However, the challenge is, BWF might not have the manpower or even the software/technology to do an automated calculation for seedings in each of their tournament.
- The corrected ranking is already publicly available, and that is the seedings. What you're looking for is the detailed calculated numbers. Why is it not available, that we don't know for sure. And personally, i won't get too hung up on it or get confused over it, esp. after you've seen how it's done.
- There is not secret to how BWF calculates the numbers for the seedings. BinBin007911 is no more or no less knowledgeable than you or i or anyone else, granted we put in the extra effort. And i'm sure he is not the "only one here capable of calculating this ranking".
All you have to do are, yes all time consuming:
1. Know the BWF regulation.
2. Do a bit of research to find the pairs' tournaments' points gained (yes, time involved), and..
3. A bit of math work to add up all the numbers. That's all.
I'm sure one can produce the same result, if one has the same type effort as BinBin007911 or badMania or others.:cool:
- Next time, let's just rely on the BWF seeding for each tourney. In case you have doubts, I think right now you would know where to look/research & calculate those stats.
:cool:
There are still calculation involved here
So i guess it still related to math ;)
Gahhh i hate math
Haha :p
..yes, there are still calculations involved but the formula is already given. All you have to do is punch in the numbers, use the formula, divide/multiply and voila!!..Put in some effort & i'm sure you can produce the same result as well..:cool:

If you just do a little more searching in the BWF website, they DO PUT UP the notational rankings for each tourney and how they compute those rankings for seeding purpose.

Ha... So if LinDan is satisfied with his No.5 spot, he can just play one tournament per year. :D:D

Very simple. Ma Jin/Wang Xiaoli only participated in 5 tourneys, so, their ranking pts are adjusted to be = (30,550/5) x 10 = 61,100. The same goes for Du Jing/Yu Yang. Their adjusted ranking pts are: 85,962. In that way, apart from the top 4 pairs (who are seeded 1-4 respectively), Du Jing/Yu Yang and Ma Jin/Wang Xiaoli have the highest notational ranking pts.

Since the rules above state that pairs with notational ranking pts cannot be seeded higher than 5th, naturally, the 2 CHN pairs will be seeded 5th and 6th respectively (even though their notational ranking pts are much higher than the top 4 pairs).

If you just do a little more searching in the BWF website, they DO PUT UP the notational rankings for each tourney and how they compute those rankings for seeding purpose.
- Yes, good catch. Indeed, BWF do put up the notional ranking for the seedings, if necessary, for every tourney. Even for this WC. So, in fact, no one needs to do the calculation him/herself.:cool:
- As for how they compute those rankings, BWF only gives the total no. of points garnered per player/pair. The formula to calculate the notional ranking is also shown.
However, if they're not available, the detective work to find where those total points come from, however, depends on us as BWF doesn't show them.

http://www.chinabadminton.com/ball/images/upload/2009/07/25/201548.gif