china team canceled to denmark ss??

[boone7]

i heard all china team canceled come to denmark.. thats it rite ??? :(

[badders7]

i heard all china team canceled come to denmark.. thats it rite ??? :(
Yes unfortunately that is correct. Danish badminton federation announced the news today.

Very bad for the sport these things can happen with no consequence at all for the ones pulling out. The small fine they get for this is a joke.

[ctjcad]

..i somewhat concur that the penalty is too little. But then if the penalty fee is increased, one has to consider those players who are not being sponsored by a national team or don't have any sponsors. What if they get injured or sick just prior to the tourney and have to pull out?
Should BWF create different levels of penalty fees? More expensive for players in a national team and less expensive for independents or players not in a national team?

With the withdrawal of LCW and the CHN squad (mainly LD, CJ & BCL), i sense a possible duel between Gade and one of the INA shuttlers in the MS Finals. Or maybe even an all INA MS Final. I also sense the INA squad could do well here as well..:confused::p

[ctjcad]

..with their withdrawal from the DEN Open SS, if the CHN squad will skip the following French Open SS as well??..:confused:

[whack_d_net]

..with their withdrawal from the DEN Open SS, if the CHN squad will skip the following French Open SS as well??..:confused:

Don't worry, I guess they won't :) CMIIW
Although it's really good for INA or other nations to grab titles as their chances are gettin bigger with CHN's withdrawal, LOL :D :D
But this tourney will be far less interesting had they withdrew as well :rolleyes:
The main reason behind their withdrawal from Den SS is due to close schedule with National Games (which will concluded on Sunday Oct/18),
I guess with one week break,
they'll be able to recover from all fatigue or injuries and ready to take action in Fra SS :) :)
But i may be wrong, though :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[huangkwokhau]

Don't worry, I guess they won't :) CMIIW
Although it's really good for INA or other nations to grab titles as their chances are gettin bigger with CHN's withdrawal, LOL :D :D
But this tourney will be far less interesting had they withdrew as well :rolleyes:
The main reason behind their withdrawal from Den SS is due to close schedule with National Games (which will concluded on Sunday Oct/18),
I guess with one week break,
they'll be able to recover from all fatigue or injuries and ready to take action in Fra SS :) :)
But i may be wrong, though :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
een told that CHN will send some..not full..as you can see the draw, some chinese have to play each other like Wang Xin vs Wang lin..my hunch is Wang xin will go to French....and their young double MDs

[CLELY]

een told that CHN will send some..not full..as you can see the draw, some chinese have to play each other like Wang Xin vs Wang lin..my hunch is Wang xin will go to French....and their young double MDs

Hauge, I think Wang Xin vs Wang Yihan at first round of French SS...
With all CHN players pulling out, there will be DEN SS re-draw?!

[george@chongwei]

what is the reason behind all this????????

[extremenanopowe]

good. let others a chance to win. lol ;)

[ants]

China sending some players is more for entertainment purposes. So that they wont get fine or bad records.

[jasonmarc]

This is nothing new from Chn team........been so many times already...so its the mice's game now, after the cat has withdrew....great chance for INA and Den to win titles here.

We still can enjoy badminton without Chn team......

[kuwichert]

We still can enjoy badminton without Chn team......[/quote]

yep- agree to that, no more boring CHN-CHN finals coming up! LOL :eek::eek:
the mess is, the schedule is fixed for a couple of month (may be even years) - so what is the real reason? Guess they just want to show their power, just want to upset the fans of badminton all over the world. It's something you can only assume to be done by CHN team. What to say now? They simply did a great job again, thanks to Li Yongbo and his racketeers for doing so and for giving the chance to others to snap a SS title:D:D:D

[wawakkk]

This is nothing new from Chn team........been so many times already...so its the mice's game now, after the cat has withdrew....great chance for INA and Den to win titles here.

We still can enjoy badminton without Chn team......
you're so right jason.......;)
we can definitely enjoy badminton without the china team

[suetyan]

Just get confirmation from her. Wang Yihan will go to Denmark Open. :)

[george@chongwei]

so does that mean this news is wrong??:confused:

[badders7]

so does that mean this news is wrong??:confused:
No the news was correct.

Danish badminton federation did recieve a full withdrawal from China. But when this news came out, danish badmintons chief of sport said they would try convincing China to change their mind.

A few hours ago the happy news was published that China has now chosen to send players in all 5 categories, including some seeded players. But there will still be some withdrawals. It it still to be published which of the players they will send.

But this is good news!

[koo_fan]

No matter how much i hate to see China Vs China finals, still enjoying the games la.
So, do come, yea? shall waiting.

[huangkwokhau]

Thats good news...I guess...
Chen Long
Gong Wei Jie
Wang Yi Han
Lu lan
Zheng bo/Majin
Pan pan/zhang ya wen
Tao Jia Ming/Zhang ya wen
Pan pan/Zhang na
Zhang Nan/Chai Biao

[ctjcad]

...A few hours ago the happy news was published that China has now chosen to send players in all 5 categories, including some seeded players. But there will still be some withdrawals. It it still to be published which of the players they will send.
...
..talk about a last minute scramble..And there's no official list of players published, yet...:confused:

[CLELY]

Seems all CHN players who enter finale at National Games will cancel their participation here...So no re-draw for this SS as scheduled tomorrow?!

[boone7]

Just get confirmation from her. Wang Yihan will go to Denmark Open. :)

just Yi han ?? no another else ??

[jasonmarc]

just Yi han ?? no another else ??

I think, if she performs up to her standard, she alone is more than enough to wins the title.........;)

Xiao Mao........:p:p...:D:D

[RedShuttle]

Anyone who cares to know the situation should see this coming. The Chinese National Games, literally being the toughest badminton tournament, really took its toll on the players. There were many appearances of doctors and stretchers.

It was a sensible thing for CHN to withdraw and honorable thing for CHN to send representatives.

Having said that, the CHN team should know better and not register for Denmark Open in the first place.

[chris-ccc]

..talk about a last minute scramble..And there's no official list of players published, yet...:confused:



.
The latest list of players was published at Tournamentsoftware on Sunday 18-Oct-2009:
http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/sport/seeds.aspx?id=DC4CD6A1-2500-4DC4-876C-1E2062DA09FD
.

[vpsingh]

So now what? Security concern in Denmark now? Or aren't the Danish offering decent moeny as prize?
Chinese, as the present greatest badminton power has a responsibility to promote the game but they take it as some joke. Forgive me for sounding so harsh but this is not only poor sportsmanship, this also shows the extremely haughty stance of Badminton China.
I wonder why were they panicking when there were hints of Western countries (partially or fully) boycotting Beijing Olympic.

[2cents]

At first, Li Yongbo said, because Chinese players skipped many super series this year, so he sent 26 players to the Denmark open at first.

Then, most players got exhausted on the national games, so he withdrew the whole team from Denmark open.

Then, sponsors for the Denmark open wanted to cancel their sponsorship. WBF and Denmark open organizer asked Li YB for cooperation.

Then, Li YB agreed that sending at least 1 for each event. So he sent the players who lost most in the national games. That's the reason he sent Chen Long and Wang Yihan. :eek: wow, what a coincidence, which exactly the same list as I wrote the "who's not" list.

Most countries or associations, want to send the best players to the international tournaments, but LYB just wants to send the worst players to the international tournaments. So funny. :mad::mad:

[kar_mun]

At first, Li Yongbo said, because Chinese players skipped many super series this year, so he sent 26 players to the Denmark open at first.

Then, most players got exhausted on the national games, so he withdrew the whole team from Denmark open.

Then, sponsors for the Denmark open wanted to cancel their sponsorship. WBF and Denmark open organizer asked Li YB for cooperation.

Then, Li YB agreed that sending at least 1 for each event. So he sent the players who lost most in the national games. That's the reason he sent Chen Long and Wang Yihan. :eek: wow, what a coincidence, which exactly the same list as I wrote the "who's not" list.

Most countries or associations, want to send the best players to the international tournaments, but LYB just wants to send the worst players to the international tournaments. So funny. :mad::mad:

But the so called worst player "WYH" has a chance to win Denmark Open. For Chen Long, very unlikely.

[jasonmarc]

But the so called worst player "WYH" has a chance to win Denmark Open. For Chen Long, very unlikely.

It will depends on how 'tired' they are after their National Games...! ;)

[2cents]

But the so called worst player "WYH" has a chance to win Denmark Open. For Chen Long, very unlikely.

that's true. But the word "worst" I used refered to the status within the China national team.

In the 1st team, there are 4 men's singles: LD, CJ, BCL and CL; and 4 women's singles: Lu Lan, Wang Ling, Wang YH and Wang Xin.

CL and WYH were the worst singles in this national games. Both of them have lost at least 3+ matches and won very few.

I said they are the worst, but not LYB. LYB said because CL and WYH lost early in the games, didn't play much at the national games, so they are not that tired.

That's only true for CL who lost in the 1st round of individual event, which made him lost 3 in a row with the team event.

What LYB said was not true for Wang YH. Because WYH won the 1st round against Zhou Mi, then entering the final 8, which made her play until the end. By the regulation, All 8 positions need to be determined. Then Wang YH lost to Wang SX in the quarter final, and then lost to injured Jiang YJ for the 5,6 position again.

Finally CL got the 24th position in men's singles at the national games, and WYH got the 7th because of XXF's withdrawl. BTW, WYH has lost to XXF in the team event tamely.

Even though Wang YH is more tired than CL, she still has the caliber win the Denmark open. CL, on the other hand, even has rested for a week, still not good enough according to his ability.

[wongccw]

is chinese badminton federation officially confirm this?
and people not happy about too many chinese player playing in the tourment...
now none of them are going ...they are still not happy?

and IF the chinese player are too tired after the national game... can the ibf / cbf or even denmark badminton federation do something about it?

and i am agree with ctjcad (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=6490) to create diff of penalty fees..but still.... the fee wont be too much ....because the winner of the major tourment wont earn too much money compare to other sport

[2cents]

people not happy about too many chinese player playing in the tourment...
now none of them are going ...they are still not happy?


In fact, China usually sent 3 or 4 for each event, not too many comparing other countries. For example, China sent 4 men to the MS while Malaysia sent 12 to all england.

But those 4 men from China grabbed all 4 semifinalist positions. That's people not happy about! People not happy about China won too many titles from men to women, from singles to doubles, and mixed doubles. People not happy about China not only took the title, but also occupied all finalists and even semi-finalists places.

No body is happy about no showup at all. I know what to be happy about for different people. Indonesia fans are happy about to see Sony vs Simon in the final, Malaysia fans are happy about to see Lee CW vs Hafiz in the final. Both Malaysia fans and Indonesia fans are happy about to see Lin Dan defeated in early rounds.

[Jagdpanther]

But those 4 men from China grabbed all 4 semifinalist positions. That's people not happy about! People not happy about China won too many titles from men to women, from singles to doubles, and mixed doubles. People not happy about China not only took the title, but also occupied all finalists and even semi-finalists places.

Well, that could be true for MS, WS, and WD case. But, could you tell me the last event there was any all-CHN MD & XD? :confused:

The dominance, yes, I can't disagree. With population of 1 billion, bottomless pool of talent, and full support from gov't, being the most powerful baddie nation, I consider less than 3 titles in a tournament (assuming they come in full force) as a failure.

Yes, as of now, the Great Wall is way too strong to break.
And as for now, I'm happy enough if other countries are able to make at least a crack on that wall. Any hole will be considered as bonus.:p

[Wong8Egg]

The dominance, yes, I can't disagree. With population of 1 billion, bottomless pool of talent, and full support from gov't, being the most powerful baddie nation, I consider less than 3 titles in a tournament (assuming they come in full force) as a failure.

China produce results because the high expectation and their men/women train hard with discipline.

Take Malaysia for example, they reward their player with life time benefit and honor for winning SILVER. When you aim low, you will achieve low. My boss is happy if I pass first round (anything else would be bonus), if not, I still have another 100 attempts until they decide to dump me. :D

[SibugiChai]

it seems like power struggle between CHina Vs IBF!

[ye333]

It's competition (inside the country) that matters. The larger the pool, the tougher the competition. Because be it 1 billion people or 10 people, finally the national team will always have about 4 spots for top players.

A player like CL would easily secure a 2nd single spot in any other country, while in China he still needs fight into the top 3. If CL is in Malaysia, there is basically no rational reason for him to train hard.


China produce results because the high expectation and their men/women train hard with discipline.

Take Malaysia for example, they reward their player with life time benefit and honor for winning SILVER. When you aim low, you will achieve low. My boss is happy if I pass first round (anything else would be bonus), if not, I still have another 100 attempts until they decide to dump me. :D

[ye333]

I think you are exaggerating a bit... As far as I remember, that only happens in 2007. (2004 AE: LD vs PG in final; 2005 AE: LD vs WCH in SF; 2006 AE: LD vs LHI in final; 2008 AE: CJ vs LCW in SF; 2009 AE: LD vs LCW in Final)



But those 4 men from China grabbed all 4 semifinalist positions. That's people not happy about! People not happy about China won too many titles from men to women, from singles to doubles, and mixed doubles. People not happy about China not only took the title, but also occupied all finalists and even semi-finalists places.

No body is happy about no showup at all. I know what to be happy about for different people. Indonesia fans are happy about to see Sony vs Simon in the final, Malaysia fans are happy about to see Lee CW vs Hafiz in the final. Both Malaysia fans and Indonesia fans are happy about to see Lin Dan defeated in early rounds.

[tommy_bun]

Well, that could be true for MS, WS, and WD case. But, could you tell me the last event there was any all-CHN MD & XD? :confused:

They just did it at Singapore SS....Also Malaysia GP Gold,Phills GP Gold......
For MD....China Master

[hcpoirot]

Though china only sent 2 singles players and 4 pairs in Denmark Open, they still have a very good chance to win 3 titles.

WYH in WS. ZYW/Pan Pan in WD. ZYW/TJM in XD.

And CL also had chance to reach semifinal here.

MD probably reach QF for GZD/XC.

So lets wait and see with very few players, what the results for the China teams.

[Wong8Egg]

It's competition (inside the country) that matters. The larger the pool, the tougher the competition. Because be it 1 billion people or 10 people, finally the national team will always have about 4 spots for top players.

A player like CL would easily secure a 2nd single spot in any other country, while in China he still needs fight into the top 3. If CL is in Malaysia, there is basically no rational reason for him to train hard.

You've answered my question. It is a system that took the most advantage out of the pool that makes China great.

Why wouldn't the Malaysia national team employ (or enforce I should say) a similar system to encourage competition? Where the tops must train hard to maintain their spot?

[cooler]

The dominance, yes, I can't disagree. With population of 1 billion, bottomless pool of talent, and full support from gov't, being the most powerful baddie nation, I consider less than 3 titles in a tournament (assuming they come in full force) as a failure.
domination isn't simply a straight correlation to population. If it was, india should be neck and neck with china in sport, for ex, # of OG medals.

[ye333]

It's not the system... Even if Malaysia has the same system, it does not have as many talents.

For example. Suppose top players stay in the peak for about 5 years. In China, we can expect at least 1 or 2 World-Top-10-level talent every year. Thus there will be 5-10 players fighting for 3-4 spots, these players will have to train hard whatever the system is; In Malaysia, maybe just 2, at most 3 such talent every 5 years. As a consequence, these 2 or 3 guys can relax, enjoy life, and still have their national team spots secured (Typical example: Hafiz Hashim).

If you check the past 30 years, in MS, China can produce 2 - 3 top players every 5 years, except around 1990. No other country can match this. The second is Indonesia, which produced 4-5 top players in the early 90s and then 2 (Hendrawan, Taufik) in the late 90s. For other countries (including Indonesia in 80s and 00s), they are lucky if they can produce 2 top players every 10 years. Not coincidentally, China and Indonesia have the biggest and second biggest pool of talents. :cool:


You've answered my question. It is a system that took the most advantage out of the pool that makes China great.

Why wouldn't the Malaysia national team employ (or enforce I should say) a similar system to encourage competition? Where the tops must train hard to maintain their spot?

[cooler]

It's not the system... Even if Malaysia has the same system, it does not have as many talents.

For example. Suppose top players stay in the peak for about 5 years. In China, we can expect at least 1 or 2 World-Top-10-level talent every year. Thus there will be 5-10 players fighting for 3-4 spots, these players will have to train hard whatever the system is; In Malaysia, maybe just 2, at most 3 such talent every 5 years. As a consequence, these 2 or 3 guys can relax, enjoy life, and still have their national team spots secured (Typical example: Hafiz Hashim).

If you check the past 30 years, in MS, China can produce 2 - 3 top players every 5 years, except around 1990. No other country can match this. The second is Indonesia, which produced 4-5 top players in the early 90s and then 2 (Hendrawan, Taufik) in the late 90s. For other countries (including Indonesia in 80s and 00s), they are lucky if they can produce 2 top players every 10 years. Not coincidentally, China and Indonesia have the biggest and second biggest pool of talents. :cool:my puzzlement is that MAS has great history of badminton successful, why is they're slipping year by year. I wonder what's the outlook after lcw era for MS, WS, MD, XD and WD. Is LCW's fame and income are still not enough to attract new bloods?

[ye333]

Great history... I guess you know that, even before China enters the ring, Malaysia was already inferior to Indonesia. Just like in soccer Argentina cannot compete with Brasil. When everything else is similar, the size of talent pool is crucial.


my puzzlement is that MAS has great history of badminton successful, why is they're slipping year by year. I wonder what's the outlook after lcw era for MS, WS, MD, XD and WD. Is LCW's fame and income are still not enough to attract new bloods?

[cooler]

Great history... I guess you know that, even before China enters the ring, Malaysia was already inferior to Indonesia. Just like in soccer Argentina cannot compete with Brasil. When everything else is similar, the size of talent pool is crucial.well, after the taufik era, INA outlook isn't that bright either. Yes, they have setiawan and kido but during the good years, INA usually has at least 2 good top notch MD pairs competing. Lately, nova/saralee performance is slipping but understandable as they have peaked already, any INA XD to fill that shoes?
I still haven't seen their top new bloods MS. Simon and soni are good for 2 more years, then what?

[ye333]

That's right. In the 90s Indonesia's top-MS-production rate (Almost 10 top MSs in 10 years) is even higher than China. In sharp contrast, during the past 10 years, Indonesia only produced one solid top 10 MS, that is Sony.

On the other hand, China is also slowing down. Before CJ Chinese top players usually come in pairs/packs: Early 90s: DJ, SJ; Late 90s: XXZ, CH; Early 00s: LD, BCL. Around 05 people thought the new duo is CJ, GWJ, but finally only CJ (arguably) reached the level people expected.


well, after the taufik era, INA outlook isn't that bright either. Yes, they have setiawan and kido but during the good years, INA usually has at least 2 good top notch MD pairs competing. Lately, nova/saralee performance is slipping but understandable as they have peaked already, any INA XD to fill that shoes?
I still haven't seen their top new bloods MS. Simon and soni are good for 2 more years, then what?

[ytyang]

One big puzzlement is that why can't China produce more top MD
pairs considering LYB is a MD expert?

[Jagdpanther]

Lately, nova/saralee performance is slipping but understandable as they have peaked already, any INA XD to fill that shoes?

Geez. You can't even mention his partner's name right.:o

[2cents]

One big puzzlement is that why can't China produce more top MD
pairs considering LYB is a MD expert?

Here are part of the reasons:

1) LYB was the MD, he was the best for a while in the world. He didn't want to see his fame overtaken by other pairs

2) still the same as #1, China's 2nd chief coach Tian Bing Yi is the head coach for WD. See how weird it is! the WD coach is much higher in pecking order than MD. Tian Bing Yi was the best MD in the world before, why he's not the coach for MD? The same reason as #1. So he took the WD coach, and also the chief coach for all events. Therefore, it is even not tolerant to make the MD achievement better than WD, because the WD coach is the MD coach's boss! China's MD is doomed to fail by its management system!

on the other hand, Kim and Park in Korea, they were the best MD once before, they are all MD coaches after retirement. That's the difference.

3) All kids get trained at begining, they were trained as single players, China badminton circle used to treat single players as the 1st class while the doubles as the 2nd class, therefore, their skills in doubles are not solid.

4) Once a single player failed to play single any more, then he reluctantly changed to a double player. All the double players in China, such as Fu HF, Cai Yun, Zheng Bo, Sang Yang, Tian Bing Yi were single players even when they went pro, but had to play double because their singles results were not good enough. So the double players are not as good as singles at first place.

5) Difficult to form a stable pair. National team always wants to control, while provincial teams always want to gain their own benefit from doubles. When national team found a good double player, in order to control, national team always ask the player pair with another player from another province. This could be better, could be worse. But provincial teams want their pairs stick together therefore so that their province has a strong pair. Look at the most dominate pairs from China: Ge Fei/Gu Jun, Zhang JW/Yang Wei, now Du Jin/Yu Yang, they all came from the same province and always stable. Zhang Jun, Zheng Bo, Xu Chen, Zhang Yawen and Zhao Ting Ting are also top notch doubles, but they failed to get a stable partner. Fu HF and Cai Yun are lucky because they are stable too.

6) Cuture thing. Players want to be a super star, but only the single player can be a super star, it is hard to have a guy who's a super star but playing doubles.

7) Money thing. double players have to share their prize money with his partner.

8) back to reason #1, Li Yong Bo was the best player before in MD, he didn't want to see others better than him, now his son is a MD, he might try to down play other players so that his son has a chance to merge.

...

[2cents]

you'd better ask why China is so strong in badminton?

Peter, the badminton smart guy, Gade said very clearly "because of money!"

He's right, all the gold earned by China was made by money. Everyone knows Denmark is the most wealthy country while China among the poorest. But China badminton association has much more money than Denmark. Li YB even paid all the travel, room and board expenses for the whole Denark badminton team to play tournaments in China!

So the reason China is so strong in badminton is the same reason China is so strong in sports overall. Therefore the question "why China is so strong in badminton" is a pseudo question. People should ask "why Indonesia is so strong in badminton?" "why Malaysia is so strong in badminton?" "why Denmark is so strong in badminton?"

China got the most gold in Olympics! Even my province, just 1 province out of 30+ provinces in China, got 10.5 gold last year. How much gold Indonesia got? How much gold Denmark got? How much gold Malaysia got? The whole India, with population over 1B, just got 1 gold in all their history!

Ok, back to the question about MD. After Li YB got money from the government, so he has to spend them, there are tons of politics involved. and MD in China is absolutely the biggest loser on this.

then there is also another reason, I have said, China is poor overall, but rich at sport money, so a lot of kids found out badminton players could be a good career for them, therefore, there are very fierceful compition to make a living by playing badminton. Then politics comes to play again, not every talented kids can be a professional players, they have to have personal relationship. You got to have personal networking to join the provincial team, you of course, got to have personal networking to join the national team.

Now here is the trick, many players now in the national team, but not good in playing skills, but strong in networking background. Such as Li Gan, Li YB's son, Sun Jun Jie, Sun Zhi An's son, Pan Pan, ..., many others, what LYB can arrange them to play?

If let them play singles, they will fail. So let them play doubles. Of course, have to give them very strong partners. On the other hand, their partners should be happy at first, becuase without pairing with those mediocre players, they will not be able to play for the national team.

That's also 1 of the many reasons why China does not have strong MD. Politics is the most important thing, but I just realize that most people here are teenagers in college, it's very hard for you to understand.

[ctjcad]

...Lately, nova/saralee performance is slipping but understandable as they have peaked already, any INA XD to fill that shoes?
...

Geez. You can't even mention his partner's name right.:o
..that's a sign that it's really time for Nova and Lilyana to split, esp. w/their recent results..in cooler's book, that partnership no longer has much clout..:p

As for the query on why CHN squad doesn't produce more top of the line MD pairs, i think we've discussed abt that in another thread (sorry, don't recall which one(s))..
I think they (CY & FHF) do have pretty respectable results (WCs & AE), despite being the sole dependable MD pair. It just that maybe their overall accomplishments are so overshadowed by the more consistent & magnified results from their dominating MS, WS, WD & XD.
On the other hand, INA's biggest results come from their MD followed by MS & XD.
With M'sia, it's always the MS & MD.

[badadum]

you'd better ask why China is so strong in badminton?

Peter, the badminton smart guy, Gade said very clearly "because of money!"
.....
China is poor overall, but rich at sport money, so a lot of kids found out badminton players could be a good career for them



Couldn't agree more on those. How many family in MAS or INA or SIN would let their children "choose" badminton as a career compare to those in the mainland? That alone should explain a lot.

[Jagdpanther]

But China badminton association has much more money than Denmark.
Gosh, if only all badminton associations all over the world shared the same luxury, ya? :o


They just did it at Singapore SS....Also Malaysia GP Gold,Phills GP Gold......
For MD....China Master
All CHN MD & XD SF, buddy.;)

[cooler]

..that's a sign that it's really time for Nova and Lilyana to split, esp. w/their recent results..in cooler's book, that partnership no longer has much clout..:p

oops, i got saralee (TH) and natsir (INA) mixed up

[cooler]

Gosh, if only all badminton associations all over the world shared the same luxury, ya? :owell, this does support that money matters more so than population that steered china into success. Before the collaspe of east germany, they were a powerhouse of OG athletes for the same reason

[ctjcad]

..in relation to CHN's domination in badminton, culture has a lot to do with it, which has been mentioned many times before.

CHN might be dominant in sports such as badminton, table tennis, gymnastics, diving, but how about in boxing, pro-car races, pro-cycling, rugby, field hockey, to name a few? Money could be abundant, but if the people can't grasp or get themselves immersed w/ the other sports, then those other sports ain't gonna fly. Same deal in the North America/U.S. with badminton.

[2cents]

polution? That doesn't make sense at all!

What's the polution of India? over 1 billion. How many titles of badminton they hold? just 1.

How many people in india playing badminton? that's huge too!

The gold has always been made by money. If you have more money, you will have higher population in playing badminton.

But money should be invested wisely. The money should be invested on the people who physically and intellectually capable to win. That's the most important thing.

Every time, when people explain why China dominating in badminton using population. I laughed. :D:D:D because that's the most nonsese stuff.

In China, most provinces even don't have badminton population. The province just give up this sports. How come you can divide by their population.

In you want to compare China to Indonesia, Malaysia, or Denmark, you have to pick up a province to compare, even though Indonesia is bigger than any province in China.

Many people saying Denmark is the strongest badminton country in the world based on its population. Ok, how about comparing Denmark with the city I was born in China, which is Nanjing. In 1950s, 60s, 70s, when Denmark already a powerhouse in badminton, the people in Nanjing have never heard about badminton. Since the people in Fu Jian and Guang Dong learnt badminton from overseas Chinese, badminton became a nation event. Therefore, the Nanjing city government invested some money to train the kids according to the textbook. This way, Nanjing has produced Yang Yang, Zhao Jian Hua, Sun Jun, Chen Jin (only the MS listed here). Is this comparable to what they have in Denmark?

If you built it, they will come. If you invest it, you will have the gold. Money is obviously the most important thing.

[2cents]

another funny story about the population and sports achievement.

In 1980s, when China finally opened its door to the world and participated in the world sports, they found out the sports they familiar the most was "bicycling". In China, everybody can ride a bicycle. But in the competiton, they did so poor, their population did not help at all.

they realized that only money matters, they have to invest money on this sports. Now with the huge money pouring in, their can even grab gold at Olympics on bicycle. It is the money which matters, not the population.

All the events China succeeded in sports, including table tennis, gymnastics, diving, and badminton, were all because China poured huge money into it. Now, table tennis and badminton gained some popularity, but there is still no population for gymnastics and diving. The popluation for table tennis and badminton were also the direct results of their success at world competition. Don't mess up the results with their reasons.

People has done great research on the relationship between the Olympics medal counts and it GDP per capita. They found strong positive correlation between them. If a county does not have money, or does not want to invest money to badminton, it's impossible for them to becoming a powerhouse in badminton.

Same thing applied to China too. There are huge badminton poluation in Fu Jian and Guang Dong, but that doesn't guarantee those two provinces can dominate in the professional competition. Look at the national games, once a province invest more money than Guang Dong and Fu Jian, it could probably win the games with their little population.

[ctjcad]

...
Now with the huge money pouring in, their can even grab gold at Olympics on bicycle.
...
...when we'll finally see a Chinese guy all dressed up in that tight bike racing outfit and straddles on his Trek or whatever Chinese made racing bike next to the Contadors, Armstrongs, Schlecks, Wiggins, and Cavendishes of the world and races in one of the premier GTs of cycling..:eek::cool:

[2cents]

...when we'll finally see a Chinese guy all dressed up in that tight bike racing outfit and straddles on his Trek or whatever Chinese made racing bike next to the Contadors, Armstrongs, Schlecks, Wiggins, and Cavendishes of the world and races in one of the premier GTs of cycling..:eek::cool:

China can win a bicycle olympics gold, because the money is within their capability. But what you said is a totally different story, that needs much more money for that. America got more money for that. It's impossible for China to win any road bicycle racing in the near future.

[ytyang]

Here are part of the reasons:

1) LYB was the MD, he was the best for a while in the world. He didn't want to see his fame overtaken by other pairs

2) still the same as #1, China's 2nd chief coach Tian Bing Yi is the head coach for WD. See how weird it is! the WD coach is much higher in pecking order than MD. Tian Bing Yi was the best MD in the world before, why he's not the coach for MD? The same reason as #1. So he took the WD coach, and also the chief coach for all events. Therefore, it is even not tolerant to make the MD achievement better than WD, because the WD coach is the MD coach's boss! China's MD is doomed to fail by its management system!

on the other hand, Kim and Park in Korea, they were the best MD once before, they are all MD coaches after retirement. That's the difference.

3) All kids get trained at begining, they were trained as single players, China badminton circle used to treat single players as the 1st class while the doubles as the 2nd class, therefore, their skills in doubles are not solid.

4) Once a single player failed to play single any more, then he reluctantly changed to a double player. All the double players in China, such as Fu HF, Cai Yun, Zheng Bo, Sang Yang, Tian Bing Yi were single players even when they went pro, but had to play double because their singles results were not good enough. So the double players are not as good as singles at first place.

5) Difficult to form a stable pair. National team always wants to control, while provincial teams always want to gain their own benefit from doubles. When national team found a good double player, in order to control, national team always ask the player pair with another player from another province. This could be better, could be worse. But provincial teams want their pairs stick together therefore so that their province has a strong pair. Look at the most dominate pairs from China: Ge Fei/Gu Jun, Zhang JW/Yang Wei, now Du Jin/Yu Yang, they all came from the same province and always stable. Zhang Jun, Zheng Bo, Xu Chen, Zhang Yawen and Zhao Ting Ting are also top notch doubles, but they failed to get a stable partner. Fu HF and Cai Yun are lucky because they are stable too.

6) Cuture thing. Players want to be a super star, but only the single player can be a super star, it is hard to have a guy who's a super star but playing doubles.

7) Money thing. double players have to share their prize money with his partner.

8) back to reason #1, Li Yong Bo was the best player before in MD, he didn't want to see others better than him, now his son is a MD, he might try to down play other players so that his son has a chance to merge.

...
Thanks for your writeup, I'll buy reasons #3,#4,#5 and #7.
But #1, #2 and #8 are too fabricated.... Maybe LYB should
make Tian Bing Yi the MD coach as well :).

[2cents]

Thanks for your writeup, I'll buy reasons #3,#4,#5 and #7.
But #1, #2 and #8 are too fabricated.... Maybe LYB should
make Tian Bing Yi the MD coach as well :).

what about if TBY fails after he switches to MD coach? You don't know the politics ;)

I think again, feel that the #2 reason should be the biggest reason. #1 reason only takes effect based on #2.

[Jagdpanther]

What's the polution of India? over 1 billion. How many titles of badminton they hold? just 1.
How many people in india playing badminton? that's huge too!

Then comes next question: how many of 'em 'badminton players' play badminton seriously (that means, becoming full-fledged athletes, not part-time ones) instead of playing just for fun? :confused:

[ctjcad]

China can win a bicycle olympics gold, because the money is within their capability. But what you said is a totally different story, that needs much more money for that. America got more money for that. It's impossible for China to win any road bicycle racing in the near future.
- If CHN can win an Olympic Gold in cycling, why can't they win an international GT cycling race?
- I thought China is emerging to be the superpower of Asia; and some would even say to challenge the U.S. as the world's superpower. So, money is no problemo, right?
- Hmm, not sure if pro-cycling needs much more money. I know the technology is probably far more superior than badminton or tennis table, but i don't think China wouldn't be able to afford it.
- Do you know U.S. pro-cycling, at least the governing body of U.S. cycling, is mostly sponsored, funded & invested by private individuals/companies/entities and not by the govt.? So, to say America got more money than that is probably not true. If CHN's govt. can't afford public funding for cycling, will private sponsorships/entities/bodies come out & sponsor a sport like cycling in CHN?
- No one is expecting CHN to produce an Indurain or LeMond in the near future, at least not me. But, we'll wait for a Chinese rider to come to the forefront. Maybe we'll see a Li Ning pro-bicycle brand in the future?..:confused:;)

[2cents]

Thanks for your writeup, I'll buy reasons #3,#4,#5 and #7.
But #1, #2 and #8 are too fabricated.... Maybe LYB should
make Tian Bing Yi the MD coach as well :).

also the #9 I listed on another post which is too many players in double are weak but having strong personal background, which made CHINA MD weak.

For example, Sun Jun Jie is not that good, but has background, Tao Jia Ming is top notch double player. When Sun JF/TJM are ordered to play together, the pair will not be that strong. If TJM had paired with someone is as strong as himself, they could be another FHF/CY.

[2cents]

- If CHN can win an Olympic Gold in cycling, why can't they win an international GT cycling race?
- I thought China is emerging to be the superpower of Asia; and some would even say to challenge the U.S. as the world's superpower. So, money is no problemo, right?
- Hmm, not sure if pro-cycling needs much more money. I know the technology is probably far more superior than badminton or tennis table, but i don't think China wouldn't be able to afford it.
- Do you know U.S. pro-cycling, at least the governing body of U.S. cycling, is mostly sponsored, funded & invested by private individuals/companies/entities and not by the govt.? So, to say America got more money than that is probably not true. If CHN's govt. can't afford public funding for cycling, will private sponsorships/entities/bodies come out & sponsor a sport like cycling in CHN?
- No one is expecting CHN to produce an Indurain or LeMond in the near future, at least not me. But, we'll wait for a Chinese rider to come to the forefront. Maybe we'll see a Li Ning pro-bicycle brand in the future?..:confused:;)

That's what I meant. Sports in China mostly sponsored by government, while in the US, it is market driven, US government doesn't have a big funding for sports. Therefore only the sports, like road cycling, found commercial companies (not private mostly) sponsors, then they will get more money than China government. It's so obvious.

Why China had won Olympics cycling? because they put most money on several most prominent events, therefore, there is no wonder. On that specific event, China has invested more money than other countries.

[ye333]

No one said population is the ONLY reason. But you can't deny that it's one of the major reasons. Currently the major Asian badminton powers all have similar system, with a national team which is far above provincial/club teams. Therefore badminton population (those who seriously play badminton) becomes a key factor (Example in soccer: All south american countries have similar messy systems in soccer. Why is Brasil clearly the best? Answer: size of talent pool).

Another major factor I can think of is tradition. When you start high, you are likely to stay high. China starts at a very high level in the 1950s.

So basically China starts as high as Indonesia and Malaysia, has a system similar to theirs, and has a much larger talent pool. It is clear who should dominate. Right? ;)


polution? That doesn't make sense at all!

What's the polution of India? over 1 billion. How many titles of badminton they hold? just 1.

How many people in india playing badminton? that's huge too!

The gold has always been made by money. If you have more money, you will have higher population in playing badminton.

But money should be invested wisely. The money should be invested on the people who physically and intellectually capable to win. That's the most important thing.

Every time, when people explain why China dominating in badminton using population. I laughed. :D:D:D because that's the most nonsese stuff.

In China, most provinces even don't have badminton population. The province just give up this sports. How come you can divide by their population.

In you want to compare China to Indonesia, Malaysia, or Denmark, you have to pick up a province to compare, even though Indonesia is bigger than any province in China.

Many people saying Denmark is the strongest badminton country in the world based on its population. Ok, how about comparing Denmark with the city I was born in China, which is Nanjing. In 1950s, 60s, 70s, when Denmark already a powerhouse in badminton, the people in Nanjing have never heard about badminton. Since the people in Fu Jian and Guang Dong learnt badminton from overseas Chinese, badminton became a nation event. Therefore, the Nanjing city government invested some money to train the kids according to the textbook. This way, Nanjing has produced Yang Yang, Zhao Jian Hua, Sun Jun, Chen Jin (only the MS listed here). Is this comparable to what they have in Denmark?

If you built it, they will come. If you invest it, you will have the gold. Money is obviously the most important thing.

[ctjcad]

..as somewhat discussed in this thread and coming from the horse's (LYB's) mouth himself:
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14555

[ytyang]

Thank you for your pointer, that post was done in 8/04. If LYB knew
the root of problem then, seemed he has no solution yet. Maybe
too much politics involved.....

[ye333]

I think Rexy said once that he started as a singles player. So LYB is not telling the "whole truth". :-)

The real reason is, MD has changed a lot during the past 20 years, the power factor becomes less important, while pace becomes more crucial. At the same time Chinese MD hasn't changed a bit. CY/FHF is simply an upgraded version of LYB/TBY. As a consequence, LYB can produce as many top 10 MDs as he wants, but not the real top ones (unless he finds another FHF). ;)


..as somewhat discussed in this thread and coming from the horse's (LYB's) mouth himself:
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14555

[ytyang]

LYB's favorite player is tall, big size, ie. BCL, CJ and CL, China needs
more smaller, agile players like LYD and Kido to cover the front court.
Guo Zhendoncontg is in this category, hope his pairing with Xu Chen will work out and be another gold contender pair besides CY/FHF.

[ctjcad]

I think Rexy said once that he started as a singles player. So LYB is not telling the "whole truth". :-)
...
..i don't know and don't give a hoot if LYB was telling the "whole truth and nothing but the truth".

So, if Rexy couldn't cut it playing as a Singles player, why did he switch to becoming a Doubles player? From what i read & understand (from kwun's translation), isn't that the same case with Rexy, Doubles players are basically those who couldn't cut it playing Singles??:confused:

[eaglehelang]

You've answered my question. It is a system that took the most advantage out of the pool that makes China great.

Why wouldn't the Malaysia national team employ (or enforce I should say) a similar system to encourage competition? Where the tops must train hard to maintain their spot?

In the 1st place, how many are interested? Pro-Sports vs other vocations (where it's more stable & often generates better $$$ for most in a capitalist environment),etc,etc.
Still need a talent pool 1st. Then there's also politics involved in the associations, NSC, sports ministry, all of which has been often mentioned, some issue always crops up. ;)

[2cents]

LYB's favorite player is tall, big size, ie. BCL, CJ and CL, China needs
more smaller, agile players like LYD and Kido to cover the front court.
Guo Zhendoncontg is in this category, hope his pairing with Xu Chen will work out and be another gold contender pair besides CY/FHF.

Just opposite! Guo Zhen Dong has been always the weakest link.

Although I have listed the reasons, I want to say it agains, among all the reasons I listed, what LYB said was the 4th and 5th important in my list. The most important is the coaches including LYB don't want China MD strong!

Not only LYB/TBY still want to ride on their glories, but also their son in the MD, and many other weak players with background. They cannot have them in the singles because they are weak, but if put into double, they can pair with another strong partner.

Chen Xu is a top notch double player, but Zhong Zhen Dong is not! Tao Jia Ming is talented, but Sun Jun Jie is not. But GZD and SJJ have backgrounds. That's the reason, the most simplest reason.

Believe me, no matter who GZD or SJJ will pair with, they have no future!

[ytyang]

Just opposite! Guo Zhen Dong has been always the weakest link.

Although I have listed the reasons, I want to say it agains, among all the reasons I listed, what LYB said was the 4th and 5th important in my list. The most important is the coaches including LYB don't want China MD strong!

Not only LYB/TBY still want to ride on their glories, but also their son in the MD, and many other weak players with background. They cannot have them in the singles because they are weak, but if put into double, they can pair with another strong partner.

Chen Xu is a top notch double player, but Zhong Zhen Dong is not! Tao Jia Ming is talented, but Sun Jun Jie is not. But GZD and SJJ have backgrounds. That's the reason, the most simplest reason.

Believe me, no matter who GZD or SJJ will pair with, they have no future!
My comment is based on what China current MD pairs. Yes,
Sun Jun Jie is not at the LYD level. But Guo Zhen Dong is
quite agile. Of course, I don't know what background support he has. Anyway, hope LYB find a solution before
2012 Olympics as I doubt CY can make it... Isn't China missing Olympics MD title?

[2cents]

My comment is based on what China current MD pairs. Yes,
Sun Jun Jie is not at the LYD level. But Guo Zhen Dong is
quite agile. Of course, I don't know what background support he has. Anyway, hope LYB find a solution before
2012 Olympics as I doubt CY can make it... Isn't China missing Olympics MD title?

well, I don't think LYB even trying to solve it. A weaker China MD is good for him personally, I have said many times, for many reasons.

You know the background of SJJ and GZD? Let me say this, almost all the players who can enter the national team's door have some networking beyond the badminton itself. It's like office politics.

never try to find a solution from LYB unless you bet your 2012 MD on Li Gan. China's the MD level will not be much higher than LG's level. If you hear any good news from LG, then China will have some hope.

[ye333]

Then the question is, is GZD's background support stronger than other players? If not, then your claim doesn't hold.

In fact, GZD has been the 2nd MD for quite a few years, with XZB. If GZD is "weak", XZB must be very "strong", right? But is XZB a top MD player? Definitely not.

If weak Chinese MD is good for LYB, why did he create CY/FHF? :confused::confused:


well, I don't think LYB even trying to solve it. A weaker China MD is good for him personally, I have said many times, for many reasons.

You know the background of SJJ and GZD? Let me say this, almost all the players who can enter the national team's door have some networking beyond the badminton itself. It's like office politics.

never try to find a solution from LYB unless you bet your 2012 MD on Li Gan. China's the MD level will not be much higher than LG's level. If you hear any good news from LG, then China will have some hope.

[huangkwokhau]

well, I don't think LYB even trying to solve it. A weaker China MD is good for him personally, I have said many times, for many reasons.

You know the background of SJJ and GZD? Let me say this, almost all the players who can enter the national team's door have some networking beyond the badminton itself. It's like office politics.

never try to find a solution from LYB unless you bet your 2012 MD on Li Gan. China's the MD level will not be much higher than LG's level. If you hear any good news from LG, then China will have some hope.

I have read and you have speculated a lot...GZD does not have any backer at all.....I know that for the fact...he told me personally he may be in china badminton for another year or two...you have many many theories...