Taufik's thoughts after his match against LD

[Destricto_Ense]

Tired.
Sun, 01 Nov 2009

Ever since Lin Dan and i played our first match against each other, the media and the public has always dubbed them as a duel between the two of us, how we are enemies, etc.
When, it was never about that to begin with.
Though we may not share a close relationship as i am with Chong Wei or Peter, Lin Dan and i share a respect and admiration on both of our abilities on and off the court.
Personally, it is a comfort to know that there is a person who share the same "duty and responsibility" from the hopes of our respectives countries.
What we have is a healthy competition on court between two competing players, the same that i have with Chong Wei, Peter, or Bao Chun Lai and other players that i have and will play against.
Lin Dan is, in my opinion, perhaps one of the most complete player in badminton today (aside from chong wei, the datuk, of course, lol); his fitness, his tactics, footwork, are an all around factors that makes Lin Dan, Lin Dan.
Truthfully, tonight was a let down for me. i played ok, but ok is never enough when you're playing against an opponent such as Lin Dan.
The best player tonight was Lin Dan, but who knows the next time we'll meet, it will be my turn. That's the way the game of badminton is, one day you're winning, the next day your losing. .
I think, besides our respect and admiration for each other, that is one of the things that we have first-hand experience with; Nothing is ever sure in badminton.
on that note, i would like to thank all of your support, terima kasih banyak atas dukungannya (in Paris and wherever you are located), i am grateful for it. I do apologize that i haven't been able to repay the support with as much a win that i want to achieve. as i say, perseverance and patience is the key, though it may be awhile, hopefully it would be worth it.
I'm going to stroll around the city for awhile, relaxing my head and body; tomorrow will be going back home and straight to practice preparing for the next tournament.

Taufik


What do you think?

[aulia]

Very good written. :)

I like he still writing in his own blog, it keeps him in touch with his fans. :)

[Skewlz]

^ after hearing that i feel kind of proud of him. he's my favorite player and it is actually good news to hear his thoughts and that he ISNT going to give up. but i'll continue to support him =). i have a feeling he'll start winning titles again, its just a matter of time.

[Joe P]

Yes, he is becoming more consistent and that is indeed encouraging. After all who doesn't like watching matches between Taufik, Lin Dan, Chong Wei, and Peter Gade, when these players are at their best. Having said that, Lin Dan just has this x-factor about him that enables him to just up another gear (or two) even when playing against these other 'top' players.

Congratulations to Lin Dan - hope Taufik can still improve.

Joe P.

[cooler]

i find his comments somewhat back tracking and reconciliatory. Remember, this guy had said publicly to the media few years ago that LD is arrogant, and bcl is just a boy.

Also to say to win in badminton is like crapshoot, u win some and u lose some. Well, we all know TH had lost to LD more times than not. He had finally come around to now respecting LD because he got beaten by LD so many times and they weren't because of his bad luck.

[ytyang]

He is more mature now. He knows his prime is over and can accept defeat.

[phaarix]

It's a nice post, he really does deserve to have a Super Series title by now... Come close so many times. I'm sure his time will come around eventually :p. And Lin Dan can't play at his peak forever! Although for now I'm enjoying matches like the China National Games MSF. The second set was almost perfect... Slightly overdramatic celebration though. Anyway, I'll be looking forward to the next tournament just like Taufik.

[2cents]

I think Taufik is an up and coming rising star now. He's more consistant ever than before.

If you have a good memory, Taufic used to lose to anyone in early rounds during the so called his "peak time". The only thing can be bragged about was winning the Olympic and world champion, but the small scaled OC was an easy one because no tough opponents on the road, and the world champion was a lucky one because LD was out of form that time.

Now Taufik is playing good badminton, not only ranked higher than before, but also more elegant and graceful on and off the court.

I was really tired of him before, but now, I like him more and more, I'm looking forward to seeing his first ss title soon, good luck to him. Nothing is impossible, like he said, sometimes he wins, sometime he losses, instead of his tasteless old motto, he can always win as long as he wants to.

[Destricto_Ense]

It's a nice post, he really does deserve to have a Super Series title by now...
Yeah, it really is a strange anomaly for someone who has had such a successful career to have not won any Super Series, let alone an All England. I haven't given up hope for him yet, but seeing Lin Dan in such imperious form is disheartening for fans of ... well, anyone else :o

[ctjcad]

What do you think?
- It shows that he realizes he is now below LinDan's level. He is at best, a GP or GP Gold level player.
- He could only win a title basically without meeting any of the top CHN players playing. Even then, it's not a guarantee. Or if they're in attendance, they would have to really play below their level to allow Taufik a chance to win.
- Anyone knows when was the last time Taufik won over CHN's top 3 MS players??..
- He wants to go back to practice straight away to prepare for his next tournament?...:p

Very good written. :)

I like he still writing in his own blog, it keeps him in touch with his fans. :)
..i think someone else, perhaps his wife(?) wrote that. I doubt Taufik wrote all of that in English.:p

[naistav]

I think Taufik is an up and coming rising star now. He's more consistant ever than before.

If you have a good memory, Taufic used to lose to anyone in early rounds during the so called his "peak time". The only thing can be bragged about was winning the Olympic and world champion, but the small scaled OC was an easy one because no tough opponents on the road, and the world champion was a lucky one because LD was out of form that time.

Now Taufik is playing good badminton, not only ranked higher than before, but also more elegant and graceful on and off the court.

I was really tired of him before, but now, I like him more and more, I'm looking forward to seeing his first ss title soon, good luck to him. Nothing is impossible, like he said, sometimes he wins, sometime he losses, instead of his tasteless old motto, he can always win as long as he wants to.

Agree. Love his current consistency and attitude.
Last night I think we was surprised by LD fast and aggressive play at first set, and somehow we want to show some dignity by smashing here and there at 2nd set, but still his old motto is now belong to LD :D

[Fidget]

Very mature and diplomatic words from Taufik. Very classy.:cool:

Was the English too good. Many people write better than they speak a non-native language. However, Taufik may have someone in his entourage who took his dictated thoughts and dressed them up. By the time that was posted, he might have been drinking his second cappucino on the Left Bank.

Hmmmm, might be a nice job...ghost writer for a professional badminton star. :rolleyes:Time to freshen up the old resume.

[naistav]

What do you think?
On any given sunday, you're gonna win or you're gonna lose.
But you're gonna do it as a man.
I think he quoted it from Al Pacino movie :p:p
Maybe that's why he keep smashing Lin Dan at second set --although still lost--, to regain his dignity, to do it as a man hehehe

[ctjcad]

Very mature and diplomatic words from Taufik. Very classy.:cool:

Was the English too good. Many people write better than they speak a non-native language. However, Taufik may have someone in his entourage who took his dictated thoughts and dressed them up. By the time that was posted, he might have been drinking his second cappucino on the Left Bank.

Hmmmm, might be a nice job...ghost writer for a professional badminton star. :rolleyes:Time to freshen up the old resume.
..used to study in one of the U.S. universities/colleges (Washington state area) before she met Taufik. I believe she's much more fluent than Taufik in English (speaking or writing). She probably helped in setting up and organizing Taufik's own homepage.

[phaarix]

I think Taufik is an up and coming rising star now. He's more consistant ever than before.

If you have a good memory, Taufic used to lose to anyone in early rounds during the so called his "peak time". The only thing can be bragged about was winning the Olympic and world champion, but the small scaled OC was an easy one because no tough opponents on the road, and the world champion was a lucky one because LD was out of form that time.

Now Taufik is playing good badminton, not only ranked higher than before, but also more elegant and graceful on and off the court.

I was really tired of him before, but now, I like him more and more, I'm looking forward to seeing his first ss title soon, good luck to him. Nothing is impossible, like he said, sometimes he wins, sometime he losses, instead of his tasteless old motto, he can always win as long as he wants to.

Yeah he's been far more consistent lately. I think he's just had a far more positive attitude towards the sport and it really shows.

ctjcad, I'm not sure why you keep saying that. I'd really like to know what qualifies as a Super Series level player to you. Taufik has made finals and semifinals of Super Series tournaments quite consistently lately. Would you consider Peter Gade a Super Series level player?? I sure hope so :rolleyes:!

[badadum]

ctjcad, I'm not sure why you keep saying that. I'd really like to know what qualifies as a Super Series level player to you. Taufik has made finals and semifinals of Super Series tournaments quite consistently lately. Would you consider Peter Gade a Super Series level player?? I sure hope so :rolleyes:!

Yep, I also would like to hear what chris's definition of a Super Series player. :confused:

[ctjcad]

...ctjcad, I'm not sure why you keep saying that. I'd really like to know what qualifies as a Super Series level player to you. Taufik has made finals and semifinals of Super Series tournaments quite consistently lately. Would you consider Peter Gade a Super Series level player?? I sure hope so :rolleyes:!

Yep, I also would like to hear what chris's definition of a Super Series player. :confused:
Super Series player(s): LD & LCW. Consistently showing up for the Finals Rd. if not winning it all.
TH, PG, SDK, SS, CJ & BCL are a level below those 2.
Taufik making the Finals of SS tourneys quite consistently??..:confused:
Peter Gade, yes, he has secured a few SS titles in his back pocket..:cool:

[2cents]

Yeah he's been far more consistent lately. I think he's just had a far more positive attitude towards the sport and it really shows.

ctjcad, I'm not sure why you keep saying that. I'd really like to know what qualifies as a Super Series level player to you. Taufik has made finals and semifinals of Super Series tournaments quite consistently lately. Would you consider Peter Gade a Super Series level player?? I sure hope so :rolleyes:!


Yep, I also would like to hear what chris's definition of a Super Series player. :confused:

Before Olympic 2004, Taufik had not won many titles, almost none except in Indonesia and Singapore. He had advanced to all-england final but failed to go further. After he won the Olympic that year, I figured and posted here my reason for his winning and losing.

Why he won the Olympic? I said, because actually Olympic was a small scaled tournament made up 32 entries, requiring 5 matches to win the gold, while at that time, 5 star tournaments needed 6 matches to win because of 64 participants. The record that time also showed that many titles by Taufik was got by winning 5 matches in a row.

That was the reason I concluded that time Taufic was a small scaled tourney's expert. He could win 5 matches in a row, but easily failed to win 6 in a row.

that time, I also predicted the super series were good for Taufic because those are 5 matches tournaments.

in fact, my prediction was wrong, Taufik now has not won any ss title yet, but he won some gp which need 6 rounds of fighting.

therefore I came up with my new theory, Taufik has improved his stability and consistency. Taufik used to yoyo a lot, when he yoyoed high, he can win a 5 matches in a row, when he yoyoed low, he can be easily beaten by unkowns in the first round, but based on his yoyo potential energy, that's not enough to push him up to 6 round matches.

now he's more stable and consistent, so he can win over most players constantly, since LD always skip GP tournaments, so he can sure win those titles.

Of course this is offical ctjcad's definition for "super series players" and "GP players", but my observation of Taufik's role in super series and GP events.

[Athelete1234]

BTW, it says on the site that his stuff is always translated by the sitemaster....

[badadum]

Super Series player(s): LD & LCW. Consistently showing up for the Finals Rd. if not winning it all.
TH, PG, SDK, SS, CJ & BCL are a level below those 2.
Taufik making the Finals of SS tourneys quite consistently??..:confused:
Peter Gade, yes, he has secured a few SS titles in his back pocket..:cool:

Dang dude....that's pretty stringent requirement there!! :eek:

Might as well name the requirement = current 1-2 MS in the world.

[Pemuda]

TH is paying respect to LD because in terms of head to head, LD have beaten him numerous times. It is also his way of offering a truce in view of his LD being arrogant etc comments way back.

[2cents]

Super Series player(s): LD & LCW. Consistently showing up for the Finals Rd. if not winning it all.
TH, PG, SDK, SS, CJ & BCL are a level below those 2.
Taufik making the Finals of SS tourneys quite consistently??..:confused:
Peter Gade, yes, he has secured a few SS titles in his back pocket..:cool:

Bao CL just won 2 Super Series very lately: Singapore and Japan, both of which LCW has attended but failed to win.

How come a player like BCL, not qualified as a Super Series Player won the SS again and again when the Super Series Player was exactly failing to win?

besides, there are even TH, PG, SDK, SS, CJ ... in between LCW and BCL.

The only explanation is that BCL skipped many tournametns due to his injuries, of course, that resulted in his lower ranking postion, therefore, you disqualified him as a SS player even he just won twice recently.

[bestco]

I think LD wasn't in both the Japan the Singapore SS this year.

But yes Taufik should've won at least one SS by now. It's a lot easier compared to winning All England, World Championship, etc. Youl could tell that he really wanted it so bad in this year's Japan Open (which both LD nd LCW were not in it). That's what keeps Taufik playing these days I guess (LOL). But he's 28 years old and should have a few more year left to do so.

[cooler]

Yeah he's been far more consistent lately. I think he's just had a far more positive attitude towards the sport and it really shows.

ctjcad, I'm not sure why you keep saying that. I'd really like to know what qualifies as a Super Series level player to you. Taufik has made finals and semifinals of Super Series tournaments quite consistently lately. Would you consider Peter Gade a Super Series level player?? I sure hope so :rolleyes:!of course he's more consistent now, he is a free lance playa, where everything is riding on his image, no more hiding under umbrella of pbsi. Sponsor contracts now stipulate no walkout, no mouthing off at other pros, no yelling at fans, play more yonex tourneys. He is a working joe now.

[Luking]

i find his comments somewhat back tracking and reconciliatory. Remember, this guy had said publicly to the media few years ago that LD is arrogant, and bcl is just a boy.

Also to say to win in badminton is like crapshoot, u win some and u lose some. Well, we all know TH had lost to LD more times than not. He had finally come around to now respecting LD because he got beaten by LD so many times and they weren't because of his bad luck.

Lin Dan WAS arrogant. Remember when he did not want to shake hand with LCW after defeated by him in a final of a SS and Ofcourse BCL was a boy when he WAS a boy :p

[cooler]

Lin Dan WAS arrogant. Remember when he did not want to shake hand with LCW after defeated by him in a final of a SS and Ofcourse BCL was a boy when he WAS a boy :p

which ss final was that?
shouldn't lcw the one to say that, not taufik?
is taufik the spokeman for lcw?

[Luking]

which ss final was that?
shouldn't lcw the one to say that, not taufik?
is taufik the spokeman for lcw?

I forgot which one but if you want you can search 'lin dan lee chong' at youtube.
Does it matter who has to say that? the point is LD did not want to shake hand and it is an arrogant action.

[cooler]

I forgot which one but if you want you can search 'lin dan lee chong' at youtube.
Does it matter who has to say that? the point is LD did not want to shake hand and it is an arrogant action.for that incident that u dunno or forgot about, i know which 1 already, i dont need to search youtube. In fact, u should search in BF, it has been discussed many times over. U should be the one who need to understand the whole situation, not me, As a start, go find out which SS it was before you continue to live while holding old faulty grudges.

[tckang]

which ss final was that?
shouldn't lcw the one to say that, not taufik?
is taufik the spokeman for lcw?
It's a Malaysian Open, can't remember exactly which year (2007 perhaps). LCW beat LD straight down in the final. LD refused to shake hand and even refused to take his runners up prize initially. Got a really bad image and was boooed by Malaysian fans then (It was held in Kuching, Sarawak)
Those were the days......Frankly he had since matured a lot (LD), just like Taufik.

[cooler]

It's a Malaysian Open, can't remember exactly which year (2007 perhaps). LCW beat LD straight down in the final. LD refused to shake hand and even refused to take his runners up prize initially. Got a really bad image and was boooed by Malaysian fans then (It was held in Kuching, Sarawak)
Those were the days......Frankly he had since matured a lot (LD), just like Taufik.
read my post #28.

lin dan is already matured when he refused to wear your stupid prize hat

funny how this big incident for malaysians and yet, they forgot which SS or which year LOL

[Luking]

for that incident that u dunno or forgot about, i know which 1 already, i dont need to search youtube. In fact, u should search in BF, it has been discussed many times over. U should be the one who need to understand the whole situation, not me, As a start, go find out which SS it was before you continue to live while holding old faulty grudges.
Then you should not have asked things like 'is Taufik the spokesman for LCW?', cause that is not the point.
Just mention the whole situation as you claim you know it.

[Luking]

read my post #28.

lin dan is already matured when he refused to wear your stupid prize hat

funny how this big incident for malaysians and yet, they forgot which SS or which year LOL
Since LD refused to wear hat then he is already matured :p

[SibugiChai]

i find his comments somewhat back tracking and reconciliatory. Remember, this guy had said publicly to the media few years ago that LD is arrogant, and bcl is just a boy.

Also to say to win in badminton is like crapshoot, u win some and u lose some. Well, we all know TH had lost to LD more times than not. He had finally come around to now respecting LD because he got beaten by LD so many times and they weren't because of his bad luck.

are you sure, he said those words? or its just the media who try to hype up the TOURNAMENTS!

[cooler]

are you sure, he said those words? or its just the media who try to hype up the TOURNAMENTS!if u dont believe me, why ask me? go ask the taufik fans.

[Luking]

if u dont believe me, why ask me? go ask the taufik fans.
You said that and then blaming Taufik fans ?? well well ...

[cooler]

You said that and then blaming Taufik fans ?? well well ...i can see now that your neurons are mis-firing.

PS: don't blame me, i didn't drag the 'no shake hand with lcw' topic into this thread.

[Luking]

i can see now that your neurons are mis-firing.

PS: don't blame me, i didn't drag the 'no shake hand with lcw' topic into this thread.
I said LD WAS arrogant coz he refused to shake hand.
For YOU it is important to know which SS and who should say that, which is completely irrelevant.

Time to rearrange your life :D:D:D?

[ytyang]

LCW also refused handshake w/ LD in 09 China Master MS final.
I am sure all pro players, like any human beings, have their upset
down moments...
Let's see how LD behave on his next defeat moment...

[undeadshot]

I said LD WAS arrogant coz he refused to shake hand.
For YOU it is important to know which SS and who should say that, which is completely irrelevant.

Time to rearrange your life :D:D:D?

Well, a fact is a fact and that thing had really happened, no matter what SS was that. I agree that it was an act of arrogance by simply refusing to acknowledge the winner.

As what Luking said, who should say that is completely irrelevant because if TH said that, it doesn't make LD less arrogant or more arrogant as opposed to LCW saying that.

People can comment on anything they want, and one cannot simply say he is a spokesperson.

[bestco]

I said LD WAS arrogant coz he refused to shake hand.
For YOU it is important to know which SS and who should say that, which is completely irrelevant.

Time to rearrange your life :D:D:D?


Ok, for the record. LD didn't refuse to shake hands with LCW in that match. I'd suggest you go back and watch the video carefully before making a false statement like that.

Refusing to shake hands means your opponent tries to shake hands with you and you refuse to do so and ignore him. In that particular match between LD and LCW, after the defeat, LD actually walked to the net towards LCW immediately (seemly wanted to congrat LCW). At that point, LCW was still celebating with his coach on the floor and didn't notice LD at all. So LD changed direction and walked to the two umpires and shake hands with them, then packed his stuff and left the court.

You could argue LD didn't shake hands with LCW after the game (which he actually wanted to do in the first place), or you could say he couldn't take the defeat lightly. But saying he refused to shake hands is totally different and misleading. And on top of that saying he's arrogant is totally irrelevant.

[Joyous]

Okay guys just beat it.

It's great to see TH & LD shaking hands, applauding each other & on the podium posing with arms around each other. LD from the start has tremendous respect/admiration for TH & am glad that
TH is now aware of it & reciproating. Wonder what LD has to
say if he gets to read TH's blog.

[kuwichert]

Super Series player(s): LD & LCW. Consistently showing up for the Finals Rd. if not winning it all.
TH, PG, SDK, SS, CJ & BCL are a level below those 2.
Taufik making the Finals of SS tourneys quite consistently??..:confused:
Peter Gade, yes, he has secured a few SS titles in his back pocket..:cool:


wow, that means we have only 2 SS players:confused::confused: crazy, and it seems that you forgot - or simply don't want to remember:confused: that also LD and LCW sometimes were leaving tournaments in early rounds:eek:

[ctjcad]

Dang dude....that's pretty stringent requirement there!! :eek:

Might as well name the requirement = current 1-2 MS in the world.
..it's not so much stringent, but i'm just looking @ the facts and reality. Facts & reality show LD and LCW are the only 2 players who've been consistent enough to reach the Finals Rd. and even winning the title.
Yes, they are the current 1-2 MS players and they have the results to back it up.

Bao CL just won 2 Super Series very lately: Singapore and Japan, both of which LCW has attended but failed to win.

How come a player like BCL, not qualified as a Super Series Player won the SS again and again when the Super Series Player was exactly failing to win?

besides, there are even TH, PG, SDK, SS, CJ ... in between LCW and BCL.

The only explanation is that BCL skipped many tournametns due to his injuries, of course, that resulted in his lower ranking postion, therefore, you disqualified him as a SS player even he just won twice recently.
As for BCL:
- If i recall, he won a SS before, in 2007. In between that and his recent SS tourneys, what has he done/what are his results?
- Yes, BCL won 2 SS lately when LCW was participating. Let's see what BCL has got to offer in the future. Will he win more SS tourneys with the absence of either or both LD and LCW?
- I would consider BCL to be on the borderline in the same class as LD and LCW. But i wouldn't put him in the same group as those 2 because simply his record is just not consistent enough to warrant the same classification.
- Injuries are just a part of his lack of participation.
- I'm not disqualifying BCL because of his low ranking position. I look at a player's consistency of reaching the Finals Rd. or even winning it all whenever they play in a SS tourney.

wow, that means we have only 2 SS players:confused::confused: crazy, and it seems that you forgot - or simply don't want to remember:confused: that also LD and LCW sometimes were leaving tournaments in early rounds:eek:
..yes, unfortunately in my book, those 2 are the only ones who qualify.
No, i did not forget abt LD's & LCW's early losses or exits. However, i'm sure their early exits/losses are much less in comparison to their Finals Rd. appearances and titles. Let alone to compare the results of those 2 with the other top MS players' results.

If Taufik wants to be considered in the same class as LD & LCW (at least in my book), he's got to reach the Finals Rd. more and start winning some SS tourneys. Otherwise, he'll just have live with and enjoy his GP and GP Gold titles.

[kuwichert]

it's amazing to read the discussion of 'who was the more arrogant player once upon a time. Does it really matter? There is no difference in what Taufik said yesterday regarding Lin Dan to what he said before the Olympics (in Beijing!), during a radio show and in the Badzine interview, it's almost all the same - and it is ok, nothing to do better!
Regarding badminton, I am really happy that Taufik keeps on playing since watching him is always great entertainment as long as he keeps on fighting, and that he is doing that more constantly now makes tournaments much more interesting for all of us.
When he wins (hopefully he will soon) a tournament I can already see the comments that this only happened because LD was not there, LD did not want to win, LD was not at his best or whatever it will be - Folks: it really doesn't matter. There are bad and good days for everybody, so lets hope and pray for some better days for Taufik now, we need him. A one man show is boring!

[phaarix]

..yes, unfortunately in my book, those 2 are the only ones who qualify.
No, i did not forget abt LD's & LCW's early losses or exits. However, i'm sure their early exits/losses are much less in comparison to their Finals Rd. appearances and titles. Let alone to compare the results of those 2 with the other top MS players' results.

If Taufik wants to be considered in the same class as LD & LCW (at least in my book), he's got to reach the Finals Rd. more and start winning some SS tourneys. Otherwise, he'll just have live with and enjoy his GP and GP Gold titles.

Well we clearly have very different standards then... Why not just make Super Series tournaments a single exhibition match between Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei? Save all the hassle of the early rounds...

Maybe all the other 30 players competing in these tournaments shouldn't bother, and just go and play GP/GP Gold... as apparently they just aren't at Super Series level... right?

Is that really what Super Series standard means?

I don't think this was about whether Taufik is at Lin Dan or Lee Chong Wei's level.

I didn't say Taufik consistently reaches finals. I said he quite consistently reaches semifinals or finals. In other words, he reaches the later rounds of tournaments quite often these days. Perhaps consistently to you means 90%+ of the time. But I don't think that's really realistic in international level sport. There's a lot of competition, and if you think otherwise, well then that says very little for badminton then doesn't it... :(.

[kuwichert]

.

..yes, unfortunately in my book, those 2 are the only ones who qualify.
No, i did not forget abt LD's & LCW's early losses or exits. However, i'm sure their early exits/losses are much less in comparison to their Finals Rd. appearances and titles. Let alone to compare the results of those 2 with the other top MS players' results.

If Taufik wants to be considered in the same class as LD & LCW (at least in my book), he's got to reach the Finals Rd. more and start winning some SS tourneys. Otherwise, he'll just have live with and enjoy his GP and GP Gold titles.

Ups, seems you gotta think about again, something is wrong. LCW was outplayed by LD at Olympics much heavier than Taufik was yesterday, but you consider LCW in higher class than Taufik, and most surprising in the same class LD is playing:confused::confused::confused:

[phaarix]

it's amazing to read the discussion of 'who was the more arrogant player once upon a time. Does it really matter? There is no difference in what Taufik said yesterday regarding Lin Dan to what he said before the Olympics (in Beijing!), during a radio show and in the Badzine interview, it's almost all the same - and it is ok, nothing to do better!

Exactly, it doesn't matter at all... There's no point in holding a grudge against someone you don't know, for something that may or may not have been said in the past. It doesn't affect any of us in any way whatsoever. And if they're getting along just fine now, what's the problem?

And why is it always the same person that brings it up... in every thread (you know who I mean)?

[Luking]

Ok, for the record. LD didn't refuse to shake hands with LCW in that match. I'd suggest you go back and watch the video carefully before making a false statement like that.

Refusing to shake hands means your opponent tries to shake hands with you and you refuse to do so and ignore him. In that particular match between LD and LCW, after the defeat, LD actually walked to the net towards LCW immediately (seemly wanted to congrat LCW). At that point, LCW was still celebating with his coach on the floor and didn't notice LD at all. So LD changed direction and walked to the two umpires and shake hands with them, then packed his stuff and left the court.

You could argue LD didn't shake hands with LCW after the game (which he actually wanted to do in the first place), or you could say he couldn't take the defeat lightly. But saying he refused to shake hands is totally different and misleading. And on top of that saying he's arrogant is totally irrelevant.
LD could have wait for only 3 secs to show respect to LCW and shake hand
like other great sportmen would do instead of going away. Everyone knows this could hurt LCW who needed a second to release his emotion due to the victory.

The same case when LD refused to wear the hat given by the organization as this is not an act of showing respect ..

It is not totally irrelevant to say this is an arrogant act since it could be interpreted like that.

BTW it is not my intention to keep remembering this incident since everyone could make mistake in the past .. but remembering that TH did wrong in the past while he now makes a respectful statement towards LD is not done either ..

[phaarix]

BTW it is not my intention to keep remembering this incident since everyone could make mistake in the past .. but remembering that TH did wrong in the past while he now makes a respectful statement towards LD is not done either ..

Yeah, I mean jeez, Taufik can't say anything without causing unnecessary drama! Why the need to always compare these two? It's not really fair on either of them...

[ctjcad]

Well we clearly have very different standards then... Why not just make Super Series tournaments a single exhibition match between Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei? Save all the hassle of the early rounds...

Maybe all the other 30 players competing in these tournaments shouldn't bother, and just go and play GP/GP Gold... as apparently they just aren't at Super Series level... right?

Is that really what Super Series standard means?

I don't think this was about whether Taufik is at Lin Dan or Lee Chong Wei's level.

I didn't say Taufik consistently reaches finals. I said he quite consistently reaches semifinals or finals. In other words, he reaches the later rounds of tournaments quite often these days. Perhaps consistently to you means 90%+ of the time. But I don't think that's really realistic in international level sport. There's a lot of competition, and if you think otherwise, well then that says very little for badminton then doesn't it... :(.
- TH, PG, SDK, SS, BCL, CJ and other top MS players could still participate in a SS tourney. No need to have an exhibition between LCW vs. LD.
But reality, my friend. Reality says, when you gather everything, only LD's and LCW's results speak for themselves. It's not like LD and LCW were given the easy way out to reach the Finals Rd. or winning it all, is it?
- I'll make it clear, since i probably didn't make it clear earlier. The other top MS players aren't @ the Super Series level like LD & LCW simply because i'm looking at their SS performances and results. More so, how consistent they were in doing so.
- In my book, that's what a Super Series standard is.:)
- If it's not about whether Taufik is @ LD or LCW's level, then what is? I'm simply using facts and reality to show the differences between those 3 players. What they've accomplished so far in their SS participation.
- Are you sure Taufik has been consistent in reaching the SF and Finals Rd. in the SS tourneys he's attended?..Only in the last 3 SS he attended.
Here, i'll just give you a brief synopsis of TH's SS record (he's played in 21 total SS tourneys, since the inception of the SS format, up until the recent French Open)...start counting;):

21 Jan 2007 PROTON MALAYSIA SUPER SERIES 1/32
06 May 2007 AVIVA OPEN SINGAPORE SUPER SERIES 2007 1/16
13 May 2007 DJARUM INDONESIA SUPER SERIES Semi-Finalist
15 Jul 2007 CHINA SUPER SERIES (1) Quarter-Finalist
16 Sep 2007 YONEX OPEN JAPAN SUPER SERIES Runner-Up
28 Oct 2007 DENMARK SUPER SERIES 1/16
04 Nov 2007 FRENCH SUPER SERIES 2007 Quarter-Finalist
02 Dec 2007 YONEX-SUNRISE HONG KONG SUPER SERIES 2007 Quarter-Finalist
20 Jan 2008 Proton Malaysia Open Super Series 2008 1/16
09 Mar 2008 YONEX All England Super Series 2008 Quarter-Finalist
16 Mar 2008 Wilson Swiss Open Super Series 2008 Quarter-Finalist
21 Sep 2008 YONEX Open Japan Super Series 2008 Quarter-Finalist
28 Sep 2008 LI NING China Masters Super Series 2008 Quarter-Finalist
02 Nov 2008 French Super Series 2008 Runner-Up
23 Nov 2008 LI NING China Open Super Series 2008 1/16
30 Nov 2008 Yonex Sunrise Hong Kong Super Series 2008 Semi-Finalist
08 Mar 2009 YONEX All England Super Series 2009 Semi-Finalist
15 Mar 2009 WILSON Swiss Open Super Series 2009 Quarter-Finalist
17 Jun 2009 DJARUM INDONESIA SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up
23 Sep 2009 YONEX OPEN JAPAN SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up
01 Nov 2009 YONEX FRENCH OPEN SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up

Appearances in:
Final-5x
Semifinal-3x
QF-8x
1/16-4x
1/32-1x
(0 titles)

If LCW and LD could do what they've done, i'm sure TH could do the same, right?

Ups, seems you gotta think about again, something is wrong. LCW was outplayed by LD at Olympics much heavier than Taufik was yesterday, but you consider LCW in higher class than Taufik, and most surprising in the same class LD is playing:confused::confused::confused:
- Yes, LCW was really outplayed by LD in last yr's OG and, in general, LD has a better record in major tourneys. But take that out of the equation and tally up just their SS performances and results and compare with the rest of the top MS players.
- Thus, I consider LCW and LD in the same class through their results when participating in SS tourneys.

[Luking]

Yeah, I mean jeez, Taufik can't say anything without causing unnecessary drama!

That's the risk of being a top sportman, big brother is watching ya ! it is how things work in this world.



Why the need to always compare these two? It's not really fair on either of them...

hmm what's the fun of this BC forum otherwise :) ?

[phaarix]

That's the risk of being a top sportman, big brother is watching ya ! it is how things work in this world.



hmm what's the fun of this BC forum otherwise :) ?

Plenty! It's just the way it's done... Can't discuss one without the other. Gets a little old... but then you're kind of right. There have been some great reads on this subject :D.

[phaarix]

I'll make it clear, since i probably didn't make it clear earlier. The other top MS players aren't @ the Super Series level like LD & LCW simply because i'm looking at their SS performances and results. More so, how consistent they were in doing so.
- In my book, that's what a Super Series standard is.:)

Well that's fine of course! We'll all have a different view of what is so and so standard etc... All I'll say is that in my book, what you're talking about is absolute top of the world standard. Super Series standard is anyone who is able to be competitive with the overall level of the players in the tournament, and who has a reasonable chance of making it to the later rounds, and possibly winning. I wouldn't want to go up to say... PSH or maybe SDK and tell them they weren't Super Series standard.

We just have different books :D. That's all well and good...


- Are you sure Taufik has been consistent in reaching the SF and Finals Rd. in the SS tourneys he's attended?..Only in the last 3 SS he attended.

Once again, that's because consistent to you seems to mean absolutely every single time. Looking at those records I think they say exactly what I was trying to get across :P. And I thought I made it clear I meant recently. So his results from 2007 etc. are precisely what I'm comparing to ;)!


Here, i'll just give you a brief synopsis of TH's SS record (he's played in 21 total SS tourneys, since the inception of the SS format, up until the recent French Open)...start counting;):

Actually I don't know about you but that list looks better than I thought it would. I thought he had far more early exits, but apparently not. It does show that he's been more consistent this year than either of the others. So lets take a look at 2009 then:

08 Mar 2009 YONEX All England Super Series 2009 Semi-Finalist
15 Mar 2009 WILSON Swiss Open Super Series 2009 Quarter-Finalist
17 Jun 2009 DJARUM INDONESIA SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up
23 Sep 2009 YONEX OPEN JAPAN SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up
01 Nov 2009 YONEX FRENCH OPEN SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up

Honestly now... what's wrong with that!? The worst is a QF exit and that in itself is hardly something to be ashamed of.


If LCW and LD could do what they've done, i'm sure TH could do the same, right?


Why? On current form, he can't. I don't think anyone's really arguing that. So what? He's past his prime, so it's very unlikely we'll be seeing a number one Taufik again. But it doesn't mean he can no longer compete with the best from time to time... The point is he's been playing quite well recently. He's got a better attitude and hopefully that will continue.

[ctjcad]

Well that's fine of course! We'll all have a different view of what is so and so standard etc... All I'll say is that in my book, what you're talking about is absolute top of the world standard. Super Series standard is anyone who is able to be competitive with the overall level of the players in the tournament, and who has a reasonable chance of making it to the later rounds, and possibly winning. I wouldn't want to go up to say... PSH or maybe SDK and tell them they weren't Super Series standard.

We just have different books :D. That's all well and good...

Once again, that's because consistent to you seems to mean absolutely every single time. Looking at those records I think they say exactly what I was trying to get across :P. And I thought I made it clear I meant recently. So his results from 2007 etc. are precisely what I'm comparing to ;)!

Actually I don't know about you but that list looks better than I thought it would. I thought he had far more early exits, but apparently not. It does show that he's been more consistent this year than either of the others. So lets take a look at 2009 then:

08 Mar 2009 YONEX All England Super Series 2009 Semi-Finalist
15 Mar 2009 WILSON Swiss Open Super Series 2009 Quarter-Finalist
17 Jun 2009 DJARUM INDONESIA SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up
23 Sep 2009 YONEX OPEN JAPAN SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up
01 Nov 2009 YONEX FRENCH OPEN SUPER SERIES 2009 Runner-Up

Honestly now... what's wrong with that!? The worst is a QF exit and that in itself is hardly something to be ashamed of.

Why? On current form, he can't. I don't think anyone's really arguing that. So what? He's past his prime, so it's very unlikely we'll be seeing a number one Taufik again. But it doesn't mean he can no longer compete with the best from time to time... The point is he's been playing quite well recently. He's got a better attitude and hopefully that will continue.
- Sure, you can say PG, SDK, BCL, CJ, PSH, BP can & "are able to be competitive with the overall level of the players in a SS tourney and have a reasonable chance of making it to the later rounds".
But being competitive and actually doing it consistently, reaching the Semis and Finals Rd., and then winning them quite often, are 2 different things.
That's what separates the Super Series level players from the rest.
- No, not absolutely every single time. I'd say 8 out of 10 times or 80% would be considered consistent. The SS started in 2007 and Taufik's record of reaching at least the Semifinals and Finals Rd. since 2007 is less than 50%. I'd say, looking @ his record, Taufik is consistently inconsistent.;)
- From this yr's record, all i can see is, he's been a "consistent" Runner-up finisher. Remember also, this is this yr's record. We don't know yet how he'll do next yr. He could finally win a SS title or he could simply tank it in.
There's nothing wrong with those finishes, if one is happy abt not winning a title and just enjoying a QF, SF or Runner-Up finish;).
- Suuure he can "compete with the best from time to time", here and there.......just like SS, SDK, PSH, BP, NTM, Hafiz Hashim can compete with the best of them from time to time, here and there...yet, where's the SS title for Taufik?

[tckang]

read my post #28.

lin dan is already matured when he refused to wear your stupid prize hat

funny how this big incident for malaysians and yet, they forgot which SS or which year LOL
Thanks BIG time Einstein for keeping the dates to the exact day and year.
To us The so called "funny" Malaysian fans, we care not whether or not who wins or loses, but how one wins and how one loses, also maybe we are not so FREE until the extend to remember which year this incident took place, or the whole nation just "freeze" to remember it. :rolleyes:
And FYI, that "Stupid" hat is a part of country culture, just like the Red Indians to the Americans, and the Aborigines to the Australia. I wonder if this event is held in other parts of the world , will i hear the nice adjective "stupid" ??? It's amazing with the modern technology in internet, and the fact someone so detailed in remembering up to the day and years can be ignorant enough to not knowing other country's culture. And it's not even about the hat, i think the key thing is somebody "matured" threw his racket and the mock cheque away :D

I rest my case.
Let archive be archives.

[kuwichert]

folks, may be that brings some fun into the discussion:confused::
What the givl is so important about the SS titles:confused: Much more important are Olympics and world championships, so where are the olympic's titles, where are the WC titles of the current players:confused:
may be my memory is down, but I remember only two names, Taufik and Dan:eek: - I do miss LCW who is playing in higher class than all the other SS players except Lin Dan - mymy,
good that we do not need to pay for that 'single line book' ctjcad (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/member.php?u=6490) has written for us, think only two names even do not fill that first line:D:D:D

[bestco]

LD could have wait for only 3 secs to show respect to LCW and shake hand
like other great sportmen would do instead of going away. Everyone knows this could hurt LCW who needed a second to release his emotion due to the victory.

The same case when LD refused to wear the hat given by the organization as this is not an act of showing respect ..

It is not totally irrelevant to say this is an arrogant act since it could be interpreted like that.

BTW it is not my intention to keep remembering this incident since everyone could make mistake in the past .. but remembering that TH did wrong in the past while he now makes a respectful statement towards LD is not done either ..


You still didn't admit you used the wrong word. The fact is, LD didn't "refuse" to shake hands with LCW as you claimed. If you refuse to admit this then I'll take it you simply have hatreds toward this player and wanted to badmouth him.

The point is, how could LD refuse to shake hands with LCW when he initiated the move to congrat him? heck LD later even shook hands with the two umpires who he was very upset with on some calls they made. So what makes you think he had disrespect for LCW? If anything, LD has repeatedly showed his most upper respect for LCW (same for Taufik) in all of his interviews I've seen. You probably don't know these two are good friends, do you? LCW invited LD to his house for diner when LD was in Malaysia (vise versa when LCW went to China). So you think LD would have more respect for the umpires he disliked than his own friend? Get real.

Yes you could say LD didn't handle the 06 incident the right way, you could fault him for not staying long enough to shake hands with LCW, you could even argue that's bad sportsmanship, but to say that's arrogance you clearly got it all wrong. It's more about a player who got upset with the loss or felt embassed by the situation and did't react properly more than anything else. Over-confidence? Yes. Arrogance? Hardly any. The thing with LD is, he's a very emotional player, whether it's a win or loss it shows on his face. That's what makes people either love him or hate him. Througout the years he has learned his own mistakes and grown to be more mature at controlling his emotions.

[arowana]

very short book indeed...Super Series level player is a player who plays SS events... to add some odd comment to this already very strange thread :)

[bestco]

I think SS started in 07, that's when TFK was on his decline, but still it's pretty amazing he hasn't won one yet.

[majyun]

i find his comments somewhat back tracking and reconciliatory. Remember, this guy had said publicly to the media few years ago that LD is arrogant, and bcl is just a boy.

Also to say to win in badminton is like crapshoot, u win some and u lose some. Well, we all know TH had lost to LD more times than not. He had finally come around to now respecting LD because he got beaten by LD so many times and they weren't because of his bad luck.


I forgot which one but if you want you can search 'lin dan lee chong' at youtube.
Does it matter who has to say that? the point is LD did not want to shake hand and it is an arrogant action.


for that incident that u dunno or forgot about, i know which 1 already, i dont need to search youtube. In fact, u should search in BF, it has been discussed many times over. U should be the one who need to understand the whole situation, not me, As a start, go find out which SS it was before you continue to live while holding old faulty grudges.


read my post #28.

lin dan is already matured when he refused to wear your stupid prize hat

funny how this big incident for malaysians and yet, they forgot which SS or which year LOL

@cooler
It was quite clear from the posts above that you are the one who is living with old faulty grudges. I have not read a single word of TH disrespecting LD in the first post. Was it necessary for you to dig out the statements made by TH so many years ago to vent your hate? If you must, do it somewhere else where somebody cares, i.e. to your family members.

@Luking
If you know that cooler is just being himself, i.e. a LD's fan.Then probably you will understand him a lot better. I am sure that you have realized that nothing good will ever come out from certain LD's fans, (LD's fanboyism maybe?) except insisting on how godly LD is. Sadly, the prize hat(which was labelled as "stupid") has become the victim this time after they are bored with blaming TH and LCW. Probably it is best to just ignore these individuals all together for your own peace of mind.

[Luking]

You still didn't admit you used the wrong word. The fact is, LD didn't "refuse" to shake hands with LCW as you claimed. If you refuse to admit this then I'll take it you simply have hatreds toward this player and wanted to badmouth him.

The point is, how could LD refuse to shake hands with LCW when he initiated the move to congrat him? heck LD later even shook hands with the two umpires who he was very upset with on some calls they made. So what makes you think he had disrespect for LCW? If anything, LD has repeatedly showed his most upper respect for LCW (same for Taufik) in all of his interviews I've seen. You probably don't know these two are good friends, do you? LCW invited LD to his house for diner when LD was in Malaysia (vise versa when LCW went to China). So you think LD would have more respect for the umpires he disliked than his own friend? Get real.

Yes you could say LD didn't handle the 06 incident the right way, you could fault him for not staying long enough to shake hands with LCW, you could even argue that's bad sportsmanship, but to say that's arrogance you clearly got it all wrong. It's more about a player who got upset with the loss or felt embassed by the situation and did't react properly more than anything else. Over-confidence? Yes. Arrogance? Hardly any. The thing with LD is, he's a very emotional player, whether it's a win or loss it shows on his face. That's what makes people either love him or hate him. Througout the years he has learned his own mistakes and grown to be more mature at controlling his emotions.

LD went away without shaking his hand.
If you insist this is not refusing then you assume that LD forgot to wait and to shake hand or he did not know that it is not polite not to shake hand after the match. The latter assumption (he didn't know) is not plausible, the first (he forgot) is possible but i suppose the probability is not high . Even an amateur will keep in mind that it is so important to shake hand.

OK LD went first toward LCW but since LCW was laying on the court LD did not give him a second chance before leaving the court? It looked like punishing him "i moved to you but since you laid on the court then it is your own foult".

It is all about interpretation of the action. Ofcourse you can not find a proof in such situation because one simply can not read LD's mind.

I am in the middle of discussing the meaning of 'refuse' and you blame me of badmouthing LD? It is very very suggestive isn't it?

LD is a great player. My impression is he has become more friendly to other players compared to the past. That makes him a great sportman and personallity.

[Luking]

@Luking
If you know that cooler is just being himself, i.e. a LD's fan.Then probably you will understand him a lot better. I am sure that you have realized that nothing good will ever come out from certain LD's fans, (LD's fanboyism maybe?) except insisting on how godly LD is. Sadly, the prize hat(which was labelled as "stupid") has become the victim this time after they are bored with blaming TH and LCW. Probably it is best to just ignore these individuals all together for your own peace of mind.

Thanks Majyun i guess this will be my last post regarding this thread :)

[phaarix]

The SS started in 2007 and Taufik's record of reaching at least the Semifinals and Finals Rd. since 2007 is less than 50%. I'd say, looking @ his record, Taufik is consistently inconsistent.;)
- From this yr's record, all i can see is, he's been a "consistent" Runner-up finisher. Remember also, this is this yr's record. We don't know yet how he'll do next yr. He could finally win a SS title or he could simply tank it in.


Like I said, 2007 is what I'm comparing to, and yes exactly... he could have another awful year next year. I'm just saying the results show a clear improvement this year, and that hopefully it's a trend that will continue. Runner-up is certainly better than what he was achieving throughout most of 2007. I'm sure we all prefer the Taufik of 2009 to the Taufik of 2007.

Personally I'd love to finish runner up in even my local city tournament >_>.


There's nothing wrong with those finishes, if one is happy abt not winning a title and just enjoying a QF, SF or Runner-Up finish;).

Of course, everyone would prefer to win :D. So hopefully he does eventually (win a Super Series)!


- Suuure he can "compete with the best from time to time", here and there.......just like SS, SDK, PSH, BP, NTM, Hafiz Hashim can compete with the best of them from time to time, here and there...yet, where's the SS title for Taufik?

Yeah!! That's right! And I'd consider every one of them Super Series level players. Maybe not Hafiz... he's reeeally inconsistent. In fact there you go... compare him to Hafiz :p maybe you'll appreciate his consistency a bit more then.

Where's his Super Series title? Who knows. I think he deserves to have one. To come so close this many times does seem a little unfair. But that's the way things go. I know he's capable.


very short book indeed...Super Series level player is a player who plays SS events... to add some odd comment to this already very strange thread :)I guess that's a simple way of putting it... maybe I should have just said that >_> :rolleyes:.


- Sure, you can say PG, SDK, BCL, CJ, PSH, BP can & "are able to be competitive with the overall level of the players in a SS tourney and have a reasonable chance of making it to the later rounds".

Yes yes, I realise that sounded stupid... :o.

[Destricto_Ense]

Ah ... it seems that even if the players themselves have reconciled their differences, it is impossible for certain elements of their fanclubs :o

[ye333]

BCL won 2 super series which LCW attended -- big deal;

TH won OG, which LD attended -- no big deal;

TH won WC beating LD in the final -- no big deal.

LD won OG beating LCW in the final -- big deal.

Basically,

Whenever LD beat someone, that player must be in form, LD won because LD is super-strong; Whenever LD lost to someone, LD must be off-form (or wanted to lose, etc etc.), because LD is super-strong. :D:D


Bao CL just won 2 Super Series very lately: Singapore and Japan, both of which LCW has attended but failed to win.

How come a player like BCL, not qualified as a Super Series Player won the SS again and again when the Super Series Player was exactly failing to win?

besides, there are even TH, PG, SDK, SS, CJ ... in between LCW and BCL.

The only explanation is that BCL skipped many tournametns due to his injuries, of course, that resulted in his lower ranking postion, therefore, you disqualified him as a SS player even he just won twice recently.

[koo_fan]

Ah ... it seems that even if the players themselves have reconciled their differences, it is impossible for certain elements of their fanclubs :o
a'hem. The day will come. One fine day.

[volcom]

LD went away without shaking his hand.
If you insist this is not refusing then you assume that LD forgot to wait and to shake hand or he did not know that it is not polite not to shake hand after the match. The latter assumption (he didn't know) is not plausible, the first (he forgot) is possible but i suppose the probability is not high . Even an amateur will keep in mind that it is so important to shake hand.

OK LD went first toward LCW but since LCW was laying on the court LD did not give him a second chance before leaving the court? It looked like punishing him "i moved to you but since you laid on the court then it is your own foult".

It is all about interpretation of the action. Ofcourse you can not find a proof in such situation because one simply can not read LD's mind.

I am in the middle of discussing the meaning of 'refuse' and you blame me of badmouthing LD? It is very very suggestive isn't it?

LD is a great player. My impression is he has become more friendly to other players compared to the past. That makes him a great sportman and personallity.

A winner should be even more gracious in victory, it is ridiculous for him to lay on the floor and when he gets up don't go and shake hands with LD.
Even in 06 AG, TH after winning AG would go and shake LD's hand and even LYB, even though he could've fell to his emotions also by winning his 2nd AG.

[cooler]

LD went away without shaking his hand.
If you insist this is not refusing then you assume that LD forgot to wait and to shake hand or he did not know that it is not polite not to shake hand after the match. The latter assumption (he didn't know) is not plausible, the first (he forgot) is possible but i suppose the probability is not high . Even an amateur will keep in mind that it is so important to shake hand.

OK LD went first toward LCW but since LCW was laying on the court LD did not give him a second chance before leaving the court? It looked like punishing him "i moved to you but since you laid on the court then it is your own foult".

It is all about interpretation of the action. Ofcourse you can not find a proof in such situation because one simply can not read LD's mind.

I am in the middle of discussing the meaning of 'refuse' and you blame me of badmouthing LD? It is very very suggestive isn't it?

LD is a great player. My impression is he has become more friendly to other players compared to the past. That makes him a great sportman and personallity.
it is a fact, not an 'assumption', of action when LD is already at the net for shaking hand and LCW wasn't. Funny how the accuser see the incident 180 degree backward. Any independent unbiased person would see that it was lcw who refused to shake LD's hand. If one is truly respectful to his opponent, he should shake his opponent right after the match although it would be a rarity nowaday. In that lcw's case, i dont blame lcw for his drama but don't accuse someone being arrogant wrongly.

[cooler]

BCL won 2 super series which LCW attended -- big deal;

TH won OG, which LD attended -- no big deal;

TH won WC beating LD in the final -- no big deal.

LD won OG beating LCW in the final -- big deal.

Basically,

Whenever LD beat someone, that player must be in form, LD won because LD is super-strong; Whenever LD lost to someone, LD must be off-form (or wanted to lose, etc etc.), because LD is super-strong. :D:Dno, ur wrong. When LD lost, he is being generous. Remember that, ok?:p

[cooler]

@cooler
It was quite clear from the posts above that you are the one who is living with old faulty grudges. I have not read a single word of TH disrespecting LD in the first post. Was it necessary for you to dig out the statements made by TH so many years ago to vent your hate? If you must, do it somewhere else where somebody cares, i.e. to your family members.

@Luking
If you know that cooler is just being himself, i.e. a LD's fan.Then probably you will understand him a lot better. I am sure that you have realized that nothing good will ever come out from certain LD's fans, (LD's fanboyism maybe?) except insisting on how godly LD is. Sadly, the prize hat(which was labelled as "stupid") has become the victim this time after they are bored with blaming TH and LCW. Probably it is best to just ignore these individuals all together for your own peace of mind.


Awwh, but it seem u do care lol.

No, i'm a fan of sound judgement and fairplay. I like to crush stupidity tho.
From the blog, it was TH who's now insisting on how godly LD is.

[Luking]

it is a fact, not an 'assumption', of action when LD is already at the net for shaking hand and LCW wasn't. Funny how the accuser see the incident 180 degree backward.

learn to read and follow the thread correctly will make your life easier :D

[chris-ccc]

.
Taufik Hidayat's thoughts after his match against Lin Dan (2009 French Open Finals)

Interesting as usual, our posts/discussions always drift away from the thread's title. :)
To me, Taufik is saying: Watch out Lin Dan, I am going to beat you next time.

From Taufik's blog:
The best player tonight was Lin Dan, but who knows the next time we'll meet, it will be my turn. That's the way the game of badminton is, one day you're winning, the next day your losing.

IMHO, Taufik's thought is not on the past match. He is telling us that he is preparing for his next match against Lin Dan.
.

[koo_fan]

Interesting as usual, our posts/discussions always drift away from the thread's title. :)
:p




To me, Taufik is saying: Watch out Lin Dan, I am going to beat you soon

To me, Taufik is kinda egoistic person. And no matter how i read, re-read that post in his blog, i got it the same way you did, Chris. He knows it's hard, an almost impossible mission, but, hey, it's Taufik you're talking about. And i have always respect someone who have that in their character.
He gave Lin Dan the credits he deserved. And, it's great. He should.

I think, people will respect Lin Dan more when the "being generous" theory is no longer here. We all know win and lose are twins. A true sportsman should have both. now tell me, Rocky Balboa lost too, right?

[cooler]

.
Taufik Hidayat's thoughts after his match against Lin Dan (2009 French Open Finals)

Interesting as usual; our posts/discussions always drift away from the thread's title. :)
To me, Taufik is saying: Watch out Lin Dan, I am going to beat you soon.

From Taufik's blog:
The best player tonight was Lin Dan, but who knows the next time we'll meet, it will be my turn. That's the way the game of badminton is, one day you're winning, the next day your losing.

IMHO, Taufik's thought is not on the past match. He is telling us that he is preparing for his next match against Lin Dan.
.yes, TH is a tricky player, he plays mind game with LD, on and off court. In 2006, he won't show his card on the dying 2nd set of the Japan open . In 06 AG, he played the same wishy washy way against LD on their 2 early matches. Only in the MS individual event that TH change his game plan. LD thot it's just another walk in the park. It costed TH a JO title and 2 head to head butting against LD for TH to win 1 title. He doesn't do these slimy trick to other players because he knows LD is the only player holding him back. We also know this too, that is why we still relish on LD vs TH duel each time regardless how many time TH has lost to LD. We and LD just don't know what kind of TH would show up on that match duel day.

LD learned this coverup game now, that is why he doesn't see TH lightly even if TH do poorly in past tournaments. Who knows what kind of TH show up on match day. That is why LD wanted to take the 1st set decisively at this FO MSF. One can't be too careful with TH.

i did not watched the FO MS final (yet) but i read that LD used lots of net shots against TH. U know why? this is because TH is known and famous on net shots. LD want to prove something to TH, that he is not only better than TH but he wanna beat TH in his (TH) own game.

[bestco]

LD went away without shaking his hand.
If you insist this is not refusing then you assume that LD forgot to wait and to shake hand or he did not know that it is not polite not to shake hand after the match. The latter assumption (he didn't know) is not plausible, the first (he forgot) is possible but i suppose the probability is not high . Even an amateur will keep in mind that it is so important to shake hand.

OK LD went first toward LCW but since LCW was laying on the court LD did not give him a second chance before leaving the court? It looked like punishing him "i moved to you but since you laid on the court then it is your own foult".

It is all about interpretation of the action. Ofcourse you can not find a proof in such situation because one simply can not read LD's mind.

I am in the middle of discussing the meaning of 'refuse' and you blame me of badmouthing LD? It is very very suggestive isn't it?

LD is a great player. My impression is he has become more friendly to other players compared to the past. That makes him a great sportman and personallity.


To me, the term "refusal to shake hands" is very clear, if LCW walked to LD and wanted to shake hands with him, but LD didn't do so or ignored him. That's an act of refusal. Period. But this never occured in that match so it's not even an argument here. You just falsely accused someone for something that never happened.

If anything, I could even argue LCW was the first one to "refuse" shaking hands because LD clearly took the first step to approach LCW to congrat him, but LCW "ignored" LD at first by laying on the ground or "not paying attention" to him? I'm guessing LCW did that on purpose to embarass LD even further? (lol, see I'm also making assumptions). Of course we all know LCW isn't that type of player. Nor did LD ever intentionally refuse to shake hands with LCW. He walked off the court because the humiliation of the defeat got to him. Not saying what he did was right (yes I do think that LD should've stayed long to give LCW a second chance), but there is a huge difference between "not shaking hands" and "refusal to shake hands". And the latter is a much worse display of unsportsman-like conduct.

[ctjcad]

Like I said, 2007 is what I'm comparing to, and yes exactly... he could have another awful year next year. I'm just saying the results show a clear improvement this year, and that hopefully it's a trend that will continue. Runner-up is certainly better than what he was achieving throughout most of 2007. I'm sure we all prefer the Taufik of 2009 to the Taufik of 2007.
...
Yeah!! That's right! And I'd consider every one of them Super Series level players. Maybe not Hafiz... he's reeeally inconsistent. In fact there you go... compare him to Hafiz :p maybe you'll appreciate his consistency a bit more then.

Where's his Super Series title? Who knows. I think he deserves to have one. To come so close this many times does seem a little unfair. But that's the way things go. I know he's capable.
...
- Sure, you can compare TH's record in 2007 and now. It shows he's been better at finishing tourneys than before. At the same time, it also shows he's been consistently inconsistent during the 2 yr period.
Now, if one wants to truly see how consistent Taufik is and whether he is back, for real, then let's compare his progress from this yr til say 2011, a 2 yr span (if he is still playing).
LD and LCW have consistent records from 2007 til now. And that's what i'm basing where they stand, playing level wise.(*Of course, with LCW's current injury, who knows where he'll be headed in the future).
If one enjoys Taufik's Runner-Up finishes or his GP and GP Gold titles, this yr, then more power to him/her.:cool:
- Again, Taufik has, for some reason or another, only been consistent in this yr's SS.
However, he's been awesomely pretty good when playing in GP or GP Gold tourneys (over the last couple of yrs).;)
- I don't know whether Taufik deserves a SS title after "coming so close these many times"..If that's the case, then i'm sure there are a few other players out there who deserve a SS title (or more) after "coming so close these many times" as well..

Btw, guys, for the discussion on LD shaking/not shaking hands with LCW and vice versa and wearing/not wearing the M'sian hat, let's discuss those in their respective threads.:)

[2cents]

what's the point here?

if want to compare different players, we should provide facts, only facts can be cleared out, not people's opinions or comments.

someone, experts on resources, like ctj cad, please give us a complete, correct list about all the tournaments LD, LCW, TH have won, and their Head2heads also. Thanks a million for that, coz that's the only way to solve all the questions from this thread.

people always have different opinions on which player's greater. When year 2007, both Chen Hong and Lee Lee Hyun-il skipped the all england open, the official BWF(was IBF) claimed the only super star missing was Lee Hyun Il. While Chen Hong was just mentioned in the last sentence of the whole article among the huge list whoelse also missing this tournament.

I was asking why, and answered that LYI was the only super star, because he was ranked 1st in the world before, but he was ranked #1 for only 2 weeks, while Chen Hong was World number 1 for more than 2 years accumulatively, and also covered both pre and post LYI 2 weeks.

Especially for All England, Chen Hong has won twice! plus entering the finals multiple times. That's the achievement no one can compete except super Lin. While Lee YI has never won All england yet.

Well, despite the fact, still huge population, include BWF, regarded Lee YI greater than Chen Hong. Opinion is the reflection of sediments of their culture. It only makes sense to argue about the facts, will be fruitless to change other's opinion.

Don't argue who's greater, Lee YI or Chen Hong, Lin Dan or Taufik Hidayat, but just list their titles, and head to head recrods, that'll settle down all the dust.

the expert who own the records and resources, please help!

[ctjcad]

what's the point here?

if want to compare different players, we should provide facts, only facts can be cleared out, not people's opinions or comments.

someone, experts on resources, like ctj cad, please give us a complete, correct list about all the tournaments LD, LCW, TH have won, and their Head2heads also. Thanks a million for that, coz that's the only way to solve all the questions from this thread.
...
- What's the point? I was merely pointing out my opinion on who i think are in the Super Series level and who are not. But then a few others came in, question and ask why i feel certain players belong in the Super Series level whilst others are not. I explained the reason(s) why i suggest so & I provided facts to back my reason(s). And here we are.
- I've provided facts, in relation to TH, to back up my opinions, comments, reasons etc.
- I will give links to LD's, LCW's and TH's record and they should be easy enough for you guys to figure out, simply by skimming over. I will not do a H2H record because:
1. I'm not interested in head to head record. I'm only interested in their records playing in SS tourneys.
2. It'll be a bit more time consuming to tally up the h2h records.

LCW:
http://old.internationalbadminton.org/player_info.asp?playerid=50152
LD:
http://old.internationalbadminton.org/player_info.asp?playerid=50906
TH:
http://old.internationalbadminton.org/player_info.asp?playerid=10337

[Luking]

To me, the term "refusal to shake hands" is very clear, if LCW walked to LD and wanted to shake hands with him, but LD didn't do so or ignored him. That's an act of refusal. Period. But this never occured in that match so it's not even an argument here. You just falsely accused someone for something that never happened.

If anything, I could even argue LCW was the first one to "refuse" shaking hands because LD clearly took the first step to approach LCW to congrat him, but LCW "ignored" LD at first by laying on the ground or "not paying attention" to him? I'm guessing LCW did that on purpose to embarass LD even further? (lol, see I'm also making assumptions). Of course we all know LCW isn't that type of player. Nor did LD ever intentionally refuse to shake hands with LCW. He walked off the court because the humiliation of the defeat got to him. Not saying what he did was right (yes I do think that LD should've stayed long to give LCW a second chance), but there is a huge difference between "not shaking hands" and "refusal to shake hands". And the latter is a much worse display of unsportsman-like conduct.

It is indeed your definition of refusal. To me refusal is not shaking hand while knowing you should do. You just falsely claimed that it did not happen.

Once again it is your assumption that LD did not intentionally (or because the humiliation) refuse to shake hand since you simply can not know the real intention, by definition. Even if one says what is in one's mind you can not prove whether it's true or not.

As i said it is impossible to proof whether LD did it intentionally but it seems unlikely to me that a prof forgets (to wait for a second chance) to congratulate the opponent for his victory. It happens very often that the winner of a match, eg. in tennis or badminton, needs a while to release his emotion and is not able to directly shake hand but i always see that the loser just waits sportively until the winner stands up and comes to shake hand, something very evident in sport.

[ctjcad]

..for those interested in discussing abt LCW not shaking hands with LD, please cruise on over to this thread:
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75320&page=16
Thanks.:)

[volcom]

no, ur wrong. When LD lost, he is being generous. Remember that, ok?:p


It is indeed your definition of refusal. To me refusal is not shaking hand while knowing you should do. You just falsely claimed that it did not happen.

Once again it is your assumption that LD did not intentionally (or because the humiliation) refuse to shake hand since you simply can not know the real intention, by definition. Even if one says what is in one's mind you can not prove whether it's true or not.

As i said it is impossible to proof whether LD did it intentionally but it seems unlikely to me that a prof forgets (to wait for a second chance) to congratulate the opponent for his victory. It happens very often that the winner of a match, eg. in tennis or badminton, needs a while to release his emotion and is not able to directly shake hand but i always see that the loser just waits sportively until the winner stands up and comes to shake hand, something very evident in sport.
Yah he should just stand there for a minute while LCW gets up from rolling on the ground :rolleyes:

[2cents]

could we discuss something more intelligent than shaking hands? Everyone can shake hands, it's not a competition about who can shake hands more often, who can shake hands longer, who can shake hands harder, or who can shake hands more enthusiastic.

it is a game who can smash harder, who can drop shots closer, who can deliver victory more consistent.

[cooler]

to add, with all the influenza going around, it is highly advisable to refrain from shaking hands with anyone's sweaty hand after games. If luking chases after u to shake hand, run... run away fast.....

[Athelete1234]

I think all of LD, LCW, TH, PG, BCL, CJ, SDK, PSH are all super series level players. Why? Because they're the ones who are expected to win against all players in the world except for within that grouping....it's only okay for them to lose if it's another SS level player. LD and LCW are a cut above the rest, so they win all of the time, but that shouldn't say that the others aren't SS level players.

And don't bring up the shaking hands thing...why are we talking about past grudges and stuff? Taufik has accepted his loss, though he looks to the future saying that he will try to turn the tables the next time. No big deal.

I dont' understand why there's all of the arguing going on in this thread about stuff like that...

[Luking]

to add, with all the influenza going around, it is highly advisable to refrain from shaking hands with anyone's sweaty hand after games. If luking chases after u to shake hand, run... run away fast.....

:D:D:D how come that you are so sweeeeet :D:D:D

[bestco]

It is indeed your definition of refusal. To me refusal is not shaking hand while knowing you should do. You just falsely claimed that it did not happen.

Once again it is your assumption that LD did not intentionally (or because the humiliation) refuse to shake hand since you simply can not know the real intention, by definition. Even if one says what is in one's mind you can not prove whether it's true or not.

As i said it is impossible to proof whether LD did it intentionally but it seems unlikely to me that a prof forgets (to wait for a second chance) to congratulate the opponent for his victory. It happens very often that the winner of a match, eg. in tennis or badminton, needs a while to release his emotion and is not able to directly shake hand but i always see that the loser just waits sportively until the winner stands up and comes to shake hand, something very evident in sport.


That's not the point. Your orginal post made it sound like LD never wanted to shake hands with LCW, which I already proved you were wrong (but you still refuse to admit it). You are just denying your prejudice towards LD.

If LD was arrogant as you claimed, he probably would've done this so call "handshake refusal" many times in his career, right? So go find another game LD didn't shake hands with his opponent. Oops, I bet you can't. In all the tournaments LD lost, LD always went to the net to congratulate the other player after the loss, whether his opponent was a top ranking player or an unknown guy.

[chris-ccc]

To me, Taufik is kinda egoistic person. And no matter how i read, re-read that post in his blog, i got it the same way you did, Chris. He knows it's hard, an almost impossible mission, but, hey, it's Taufik you're talking about. And i have always respect someone who have that in their character.

He gave Lin Dan the credits he deserved. And, it's great. He should.

I think, people will respect Lin Dan more when the "being generous" theory is no longer here. We all know win and lose are twins. A true sportsman should have both. now tell me, Rocky Balboa lost too, right?



.
That's true, koo_fan. Taufik (or any other players and coaches) will need to rethink how to defeat Lin Dan.

Yes, credits should be given to Lin Dan. Currently, Lin Dan's great form is just too much for all his challengers.

It's great to find Taufik not thinking that he will never be able to defeat Lin Dan in future matches.
.

[chris-ccc]

yes, TH is a tricky player, he plays mind game with LD, on and off court. In 2006, he won't show his card on the dying 2nd set of the Japan open . In 06 AG, he played the same wishy washy way against LD on their 2 early matches. Only in the MS individual event that TH change his game plan. LD thot it's just another walk in the park. It costed TH a JO title and 2 head to head butting against LD for TH to win 1 title. He doesn't do these slimy trick to other players because he knows LD is the only player holding him back. We also know this too, that is why we still relish on LD vs TH duel each time regardless how many time TH has lost to LD. We and LD just don't know what kind of TH would show up on that match duel day.

LD learned this coverup game now, that is why he doesn't see TH lightly even if TH do poorly in past tournaments. Who knows what kind of TH show up on match day. That is why LD wanted to take the 1st set decisively at this FO MSF. One can't be too careful with TH.

i did not watched the FO MS final (yet) but i read that LD used lots of net shots against TH. U know why? this is because TH is known and famous on net shots. LD want to prove something to TH, that he is not only better than TH but he wanna beat TH in his (TH) own game.



.
That's exactly it. Badminton (like all other sporting events) is a game of not just physical, but mental as well. Mind games play a very important role.
.

[phaarix]

- Sure, you can compare TH's record in 2007 and now. It shows he's been better at finishing tourneys than before. At the same time, it also shows he's been consistently inconsistent during the 2 yr period.

But but but!... that's exactly what I was saying wasn't it!? I'm starting to wonder what point you're trying to make here. What's the past got to do with the present? If "Super Series level" is the point you're trying to make, then I think only current form really matters.


Now, if one wants to truly see how consistent Taufik is and whether he is back, for real, then let's compare his progress from this yr til say 2011, a 2 yr span (if he is still playing).

All I was saying was that he's been consistent this year and that I hope he still will be in coming years. I don't really care how other people define "consistent". There's a lot of room for interpretation so it's not really worth debating what it actually means as it's obviously going to be different from person to person.


LD and LCW have consistent records from 2007 til now. And that's what i'm basing where they stand, playing level wise.(*Of course, with LCW's current injury, who knows where he'll be headed in the future).
If one enjoys Taufik's Runner-Up finishes or his GP and GP Gold titles, this yr, then more power to him/her.:cool:

For the last time... yes. Currently (and probably permanently) Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei are generally a level above Taufik. So what?

I just can't understand how your standards are so high. Especially living in a non-badminton country like me. I'm happy enough with our players even making it to the main draw... Even our All Blacks haven't had a very good year, but I'm still happy with how they're doing. So yeah, I sure am happy with Taufik's runner up finishes.

I don't limit my enjoyment of others' success to only the best of the best. I support many players regardless of level.


- Again, Taufik has, for some reason or another, only been consistent in this yr's SS.
However, he's been awesomely pretty good when playing in GP or GP Gold tourneys (over the last couple of yrs).;)

He has a better attitude... :)


- I don't know whether Taufik deserves a SS title after "coming so close these many times"..If that's the case, then i'm sure there are a few other players out there who deserve a SS title (or more) after "coming so close these many times" as well..


Yeah I'm sure there are others. There are also a few players below Taufik's level that have managed it. Are those players Super Series standard? I'd say yes! How can you win a tournament if you're not up to standard :S?

[volcom]

.
That's true, koo_fan. Taufik (or any other players and coaches) will need to rethink how to defeat Lin Dan.

Yes, credits should be given to Lin Dan. Currently, Lin Dan's great form is just too much for all his challengers.

It's great to find Taufik not thinking that he will never be able to defeat Lin Dan in future matches.
.

Credit to Taufik that he can still play at a good level at the real age of 30

[huangkwokhau]

Chris...TH and others like CJ, SDK, Simon, BCL, Gade are Super series players adn whoever makes it to the main draw of SS..I do not see how you said that TH is not super series player...thats a bit crazy...!!

[kuwichert]

a'hem. The day will come. One fine day.

just fear it's gonna be the very last day:eek::eek:

[kuwichert]

I think all of LD, LCW, TH, PG, BCL, CJ, SDK, PSH are all super series level players. Why? Because they're the ones who are expected to win against all players in the world except for within that grouping....it's only okay for them to lose if it's another SS level player. LD and LCW are a cut above the rest, so they win all of the time, but that shouldn't say that the others aren't SS level players.

And don't bring up the shaking hands thing...why are we talking about past grudges and stuff? Taufik has accepted his loss, though he looks to the future saying that he will try to turn the tables the next time. No big deal.

I dont' understand why there's all of the arguing going on in this thread about stuff like that...

Yep, but there is one person cutting the list down to 2 names only:eek:
because his book has only one page may be:D:D:D

[kuwichert]

.
That's exactly it. Badminton (like all other sporting events) is a game of not just physical, but mental as well. Mind games play a very important role.
.

Yep - and we like to watch it very much too!!!:cool:

[hcpoirot]

Taufik still can win SS title more easily. But he had to be selective about the Ss events he play. Play SS events where his nemesis did not participates. (His nemesis are LD, LCW and BCL where he lost much more than win against)

Example; Denmark Open 09 where LD, LCW and BCL did not enter. If he play Simon S in final, he had a very good chance to win. And sometimes hope for the luck of the draw. Simon Santoso win SS Denmark Open without had to play any of the top 10 players.

[hcpoirot]

Although I am not agree with Chris that said only LD and LCW are SS level players. I do think others also had the quality of SS level players but not as good as LD and LCW.

But for so long now, if LD and LCW play in the same SS event together, the winner will either be LD or LCW. No one can defeat both of them in the same time recently to win an SS tournament.

[george@chongwei]

good article from taufik:)

[cooler]

Nothing is ever sure in badminton.

Yes there is.


The Most Pickers Match

-------------Matches-----------------------Picks---Win--Loss

Elizabeth.Cann....... vs Shixian.Wang......._53..._53...__0
Chunlai.Bao.......... vs Peter.Hoeg.Gade.[2]_53...__0..._53
Joachim.Persson.[6].. vs Simon.Santoso......_52...__2..._50
Yun.Hu............... vs Przemyslaw.Wacha..._51..._49...__2
P.T.Wong/E.H.Chin.[1] vs Jin.Ma/Xiaoli.Wang._50..._50...__0
Olga.Konon.(Q)....... vs Kristina.Ludikova.(_48..._48...__0
Ella.Diehl........... vs Jie.Yao............_47..._45...__2
Jin.Ma/Xiaoli.Wang.[5 vs Polii/Maheswari.[8]_47..._44...__3
Adriyanti.Firdasari.. vs Larisa.Griga......._44..._43...__1
Chunlai.Bao.......... vs Sony.Dwi.Kuncoro.[5_44..._44...__0
Aditi.Mutatkar....... vs Anu.Nieminen......._43...__0..._43
Long.Chen............ vs Rajiv.Ouseph......._42..._42...__0
Megumi.Taruno........ vs Linda.Zechiri......_41..._40...__1
Hanbin.He/Yang.Yu.[5] vs Fischer/Pedersen.[4_41..._36...__5
Dan.Lin.[1].......... vs Jin.Chen.[3]......._41..._41...__0
Yihan.Wang.[3]....... vs Hongyan.Pi.[5]....._40..._39...__1
Dan.Lin.[1].......... vs Taufik.Hidayat.[4]._40..._40...__0

[Destricto_Ense]

cooler, please stop trolling. PAW does not determine the outcome. If probability and public opinion were what decided results then the betting industry would not exist.

Also, your own post is contradictory -

Chunlai.Bao.......... vs Peter.Hoeg.Gade.[2]_53...__0..._53
Aditi.Mutatkar....... vs Anu.Nieminen......._43...__0..._43

[chris-ccc]

cooler, please stop trolling. PAW does not determine the outcome. If probability and public opinion were what decided results then the betting industry would not exist.

Also, your own post is contradictory -
Chunlai.Bao.......... vs Peter.Hoeg.Gade.[2]_53...__0..._53



.
I was one of the 53 PAWers to pick Bao Chunlai to defeat Peter Gade. :o:o:o

It's not that Peter Gade is weaker player; but it's because there were 13 PAW points for picking Bao Chunlai, compared to 8 for Peter Gade.
.

[chris-ccc]

Yep - and we like to watch it very much too!!! :cool:



.
Coming up is the SS Masters Finals (2009 December, 2nd to 6th): click here (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77137)
Probably, Taufik will face Lin Dan in a match there.
.

[cooler]

cooler, please stop trolling. PAW does not determine the outcome. If probability and public opinion were what decided results then the betting industry would not exist.

Also, your own post is contradictory -

Chunlai.Bao.......... vs Peter.Hoeg.Gade.[2]_53...__0..._53
Aditi.Mutatkar....... vs Anu.Nieminen......._43...__0..._43

oh oh oh, teacher teacher, i know i know......


The Most Pickers Match (2009 Japan Open)

-------------Matches-----------------------Picks---Win--Loss

Xin.Wang.(Q)......... vs Tine.Rasmussen.[3]._53..._53...__0
Mayu.Sekiya.(PFQ).... vs Xin.Wang.(Q)......._53..._52...__1
Mew.Choo.Wong........ vs Shao.Chieh.Cheng.(Q_49...__2..._47
Maria.Kristin.Yuliant vs Xin.Wang.(Q)......._49..._48...__1
P.T.Wong/E.H.Chin.[1] vs Jin.Ma/Xiaoli.Wang-_48..._48...__0
Anu.Nieminen......... vs Mayu.Sekiya.(PFQ).._46..._45...__1
Nicole.Grether....... vs Eriko.Hirose.(PFQ)._45..._44...__1
Jin.Ma/Xiaoli.Wang-5. vs N.Maheswari/G.Polii_45..._45...__0
Chunlai.Bao.......... vs Tien.Minh.Nguyen.[8_43..._43...__0
Moon.Hi.Kim.(PFQ).... vs Beiwen.Zhang......._42..._40...__2
Eriko.Hirose.(PFQ)... vs Mingtian.Fu........_41..._37...__4
Songphon.A/Kunchala.V vs Hendra.A.G/Vita.M.._41...__0..._41
Hongyan.Pi.[7]....... vs Lin.Wang.[2]......._39..._39...__0
Yanjiao.Jiang........ vs Saina.Nehwal.[8]..._38..._33...__5
Nicole.Grether....... vs Megumi.Taruno......_37...__1..._36
Adriyanti.Firdasari.. vs Nicole.Grether....._36...__0..._36
M.Maeda/S.Suetsuna[7] vs S.Irawati/M.Jauhari_35..._33...__2
Yihan.Wang.[4]....... vs Xin.Wang.(Q)......._35...__0..._35
Yihan.Wang.[4]....... vs Petya.Nedelcheva..._34..._34...__0
Chunlai.Bao.......... vs Peter.Hoeg.Gade.[3]_32..._32...__0
Wei.Ng............... vs Kenichi.Tago......._30..._27...__3
Eriko.Hirose.(PFQ)... vs Mew.Choo.Wong......_30..._25...__5
Wan.Ho.Shon.(PFQ).... vs Joachim.Persson.[7]_29..._28...__1
Salakjit.Ponsana..... vs Sayaka.Sato........_28...__1..._27
Petya.Nedelcheva..... vs Misaki.Matsutomo.(Q_27...__1..._26
Songphon.A/Kunchala.V vs K.Kazuno/R.Kakiiwa._27...__0..._27
Xin.Wang.(Q)......... vs Lin.Wang.[2]......._27..._26...__1
Sung.Hwan.Park.[6]... vs Choong.Hann.Wong..._26..._24...__2
Sony.Dwi.Kuncoro.[5]. vs Long.Chen.........._26...__1..._25
T.Gunawan/H.Bach..... vs H.Hashimoto/N.Hirat_26..._25...__1
Moon.Hi.Kim.(PFQ).... vs Salakjit.Ponsana..._24...__1..._23
Taufik.Hidayat.[4]... vs Chunlai.Bao........_24..._24...__0

[cooler]

good article from taufik:)that's why taufik likey mr. chong wei:)

[Destricto_Ense]

Hehe. Heh.

[kuwichert]

.
Coming up is the SS Masters Finals (2009 December, 2nd to 6th): click here (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77137)
Probably, Taufik will face Lin Dan in a match there.
.
I'm hoping for the Hongkong semi already:eek:

[ctjcad]

:p..*sigh*...since you guys asked for it..

I've already made clear what i consider as a Super Series level player.

Super Series level players are the Standard Bearer. Gold Standard. King of the Mountain. Chief of the Tribe.....And they have these criterias:
- Entering at least a Semifinals Rd. & Finals Rd., in a SS tourney, consistently. Consistently being close to or at least 80% of the time.
- Winning some SS titles.

Now..

For the criterias of a GP or GP Gold level player, i would consider them:
- Entering at least a Semifinals Rd. & Finals Rd., in a SS tourney, consistently.
Consistently being close to or at least 80% of the time.
- Winning some GP or GP Gold titles.

For Taufik and others not named LD or LCW, they could move up to the Super Series level by accomplishing the 2 SS level criterias.

But but but!... that's exactly what I was saying wasn't it!? I'm starting to wonder what point you're trying to make here. What's the past got to do with the present? If "Super Series level" is the point you're trying to make, then I think only current form really matters.

All I was saying was that he's been consistent this year and that I hope he still will be in coming years. I don't really care how other people define "consistent". There's a lot of room for interpretation so it's not really worth debating what it actually means as it's obviously going to be different from person to person.

For the last time... yes. Currently (and probably permanently) Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei are generally a level above Taufik. So what?

I just can't understand how your standards are so high. Especially living in a non-badminton country like me. I'm happy enough with our players even making it to the main draw... Even our All Blacks haven't had a very good year, but I'm still happy with how they're doing. So yeah, I sure am happy with Taufik's runner up finishes.

I don't limit my enjoyment of others' success to only the best of the best. I support many players regardless of level.
...
Yeah I'm sure there are others. There are also a few players below Taufik's level that have managed it. Are those players Super Series standard? I'd say yes! How can you win a tournament if you're not up to standard :S?
- I mentioned the past and the present because you brought up yr 2007 when your TH was struggling & then compared to his record this yr. That's a 2 yrs difference. I mentioned, if you want to do that, let's compare this yr's record of TH and then let's see in 2011. That's another 2 yrs difference. The same comparison as you brought up. If not & to be fair, then let's compare his record in 2007 and now (which shows his inconsistency).
Personally, i look at the overall span since the inception of the Super Series to differentiate players. Like i mentioned, sure, you can take TH's form this yr's and use it to justify that his current form "matters". But how about next yr's form or in 2011?..Will he still keep the same performance as this yr?..that, of course, we won't know.
That's what i mean and the point i'm trying to show by being "consistent".

- So, if there's a lot of room for different interpretations & if you don't care how other people define as "consistent", then according to you & may i ask, what is your definition of "consistent"???..Or you don't really care if a player is consistent or not?..

- That's my point. There has to be a different standard. I'm pointing out, LD's and LCW's levels are above the rest. A few players are on the borderline.

- I understand there are people out there who will accept lesser standard, ala Runner-Up or QF or Semifinals finishes. Like i mentioned, i don't mind & more power to you and those people.:cool:

- Good, if you enjoy watching and supporting many players regardless of level. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to convey i don't support or not enjoy watching Taufik or Gade or SDK or players not named LD or LCW. I'm just looking @ the reality.

- See my definition above on what i consider a SS level player. Players "below" TH's level could win 1 or 2 SS titles, but how consistent are they?

Chris...TH and others like CJ, SDK, Simon, BCL, Gade are Super series players adn whoever makes it to the main draw of SS..I do not see how you said that TH is not super series player...thats a bit crazy...!!
..hmm, so if one defines a Super Series players standard by "whoever makes it to the main draw of SS", then i can conclude players like JOJ, Persson, Sato, Wacha, Zwiebler, Anand....and on the ladies side C. Reid, Grether, Van Cutsen...are also Super Series level players??..if that's the case, are they on the same level as LD and LCW??..

Yep, but there is one person cutting the list down to 2 names only:eek:
because his book has only one page may be:D:D:D
..yes, how many more names would you add?? and under what criterias?..:confused:

Taufik still can win SS title more easily. But he had to be selective about the Ss events he play. Play SS events where his nemesis did not participates. (His nemesis are LD, LCW and BCL where he lost much more than win against)

Example; Denmark Open 09 where LD, LCW and BCL did not enter. If he play Simon S in final, he had a very good chance to win. And sometimes hope for the luck of the draw. Simon Santoso win SS Denmark Open without had to play any of the top 10 players.
..you got the "Super Series level player" concept of what i'm basically trying to convey (in my earlier post).

Although I am not agree with Chris that said only LD and LCW are SS level players. I do think others also had the quality of SS level players but not as good as LD and LCW.

But for so long now, if LD and LCW play in the same SS event together, the winner will either be LD or LCW. No one can defeat both of them in the same time recently to win an SS tournament.
..the part in bold, that's what i'm trying to convey. You've summed it up. They can compete and "have the quality of SS level players, but.."...yes, there's a big BUT...;)

.
Coming up is the SS Masters Finals (2009 December, 2nd to 6th): click here (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77137)
Probably, Taufik will face Lin Dan in a match there.
.
..are LinDan & Taufik confirmed to come??..:confused:

[cooler]

maybe tournament organizer like to match up LD with TH together to increase tournament interest and entice more sponsors:D

[ctjcad]

..if Taufik had met LinDan (or CJ or BCL) before the Finals or Semifinals Rd., there wouldn't be a big hype on how Taufik has finally come back etc..Unfortunately, they're now 2 different levels players, as far as i can see..:(

[Destricto_Ense]

I don't think there's much hype about Taufik being "back to his best" or anything, as that's an unrealistic expectation. It's just nice to see him getting into a few finals, and improving again.

[ctjcad]

..improving over his record from 2007??..:confused:
How long will his improvement last??..:confused:

[Destricto_Ense]

You posted it yourself. (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1288325&postcount=50) There's quite an obvious improvement in his placings over the last two years.

[ctjcad]

..and will his "improvement" last til the 2012 OG??..:confused:

[Destricto_Ense]

I would be surprised if TH or PG entered the 2012 OG. But it would be great if they did, because I'm going :D

[george@chongwei]

wow, u guys are discussing way too much in just 1 article from mr taufik hidayat!:p

[cooler]

wow, u guys are discussing way too much in just 1 article from mr taufik hidayat!:pactually, 1/2 of it was about no shaking hand with lcw.:p

[wilcan]

hahaha gp gold level player
u make me laugh a day long hahaha
where u put ur brain??deep down in ur ass??

[ctjcad]

..tell us, my man, what SS titles has Taufik won??:confused:..as far as i can see, he's only won GP and GP Gold titles..

[hcyong]

I think what ctjcad means by SS player is that the player is of SS champion material.

[ctjcad]

..a true BadmintonCentral Genius material; can read it through even before skipping to the 2nd page of this thread..:cool:
*yeah, i meant something to that sort...

[george@chongwei]

hahaha gp gold level player
u make me laugh a day long hahaha
where u put ur brain??deep down in ur ass??
lol, actually i laugh the whole day long too after reading this post:D

actually, 1/2 of it was about no shaking hand with lcw.:p
ah, i see...:D anymore u wanna share with me? the conclusion of the thread's story?:p

[cooler]

lol, actually i laugh the whole day long too after reading this post:D

ah, i see...:D anymore u wanna share with me? the conclusion of the thread's story?:pu want more stories on TH? haven't i done enough damage already?:p

[ye333]

See, you are the "pessimist" again. :D:D

Anyway, I recently checked the super-series ranking. I was surprised by how well TH did. In 5 SS events he gleaned almost 35000 points. Only less efficient than LD (5 events, 40440 pts) and LCW (8 events, 56??? pts). But more efficient than PG, CJ, SDK etc etc.

Of course, there is no contradiction to your theory. :D


:p..*sigh*...since you guys asked for it..

I've already made clear what i consider as a Super Series level player.

Super Series level players are the Standard Bearer. Gold Standard. King of the Mountain. Chief of the Tribe.....And they have these criterias:
- Entering at least a Semifinals Rd. & Finals Rd., in a SS tourney, consistently. Consistently being close to or at least 80% of the time.
- Winning some SS titles.

Now..

For the criterias of a GP or GP Gold level player, i would consider them:
- Entering at least a Semifinals Rd. & Finals Rd., in a SS tourney, consistently.
Consistently being close to or at least 80% of the time.
- Winning some GP or GP Gold titles.

For Taufik and others not named LD or LCW, they could move up to the Super Series level by accomplishing the 2 SS level criterias.

- I mentioned the past and the present because you brought up yr 2007 when your TH was struggling & then compared to his record this yr. That's a 2 yrs difference. I mentioned, if you want to do that, let's compare this yr's record of TH and then let's see in 2011. That's another 2 yrs difference. The same comparison as you brought up. If not & to be fair, then let's compare his record in 2007 and now (which shows his inconsistency).
Personally, i look at the overall span since the inception of the Super Series to differentiate players. Like i mentioned, sure, you can take TH's form this yr's and use it to justify that his current form "matters". But how about next yr's form or in 2011?..Will he still keep the same performance as this yr?..that, of course, we won't know.
That's what i mean and the point i'm trying to show by being "consistent".

- So, if there's a lot of room for different interpretations & if you don't care how other people define as "consistent", then according to you & may i ask, what is your definition of "consistent"???..Or you don't really care if a player is consistent or not?..

- That's my point. There has to be a different standard. I'm pointing out, LD's and LCW's levels are above the rest. A few players are on the borderline.

- I understand there are people out there who will accept lesser standard, ala Runner-Up or QF or Semifinals finishes. Like i mentioned, i don't mind & more power to you and those people.:cool:

- Good, if you enjoy watching and supporting many players regardless of level. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to convey i don't support or not enjoy watching Taufik or Gade or SDK or players not named LD or LCW. I'm just looking @ the reality.

- See my definition above on what i consider a SS level player. Players "below" TH's level could win 1 or 2 SS titles, but how consistent are they?

..hmm, so if one defines a Super Series players standard by "whoever makes it to the main draw of SS", then i can conclude players like JOJ, Persson, Sato, Wacha, Zwiebler, Anand....and on the ladies side C. Reid, Grether, Van Cutsen...are also Super Series level players??..if that's the case, are they on the same level as LD and LCW??..

..yes, how many more names would you add?? and under what criterias?..:confused:

..you got the "Super Series level player" concept of what i'm basically trying to convey (in my earlier post).

..the part in bold, that's what i'm trying to convey. You've summed it up. They can compete and "have the quality of SS level players, but.."...yes, there's a big BUT...;)

..are LinDan & Taufik confirmed to come??..:confused:

[gadjyah]

LOL, "nice" thread
LD and LCW are clearly two best players in recent years...

aside all of that, i'm still wondering that would i be remembering those badminton players who win SS titles and/or them who were Olympic or World champions and who gave their country pride and joy in so many years ahead...???

ah idk...am still amateur!

[ctjcad]

:p

See, you are the "pessimist" again. :D:D

Anyway, I recently checked the super-series ranking. I was surprised by how well TH did. In 5 SS events he gleaned almost 35000 points. Only less efficient than LD (5 events, 40440 pts) and LCW (8 events, 56??? pts). But more efficient than PG, CJ, SDK etc etc.

Of course, there is no contradiction to your theory. :D
- Really??..i thought i'm simply pointing out the reality??..:confused:
- Yes, i'm sure you know part of the reason why TH has raked abt 35k pts. See also my post #108.
- I'm open w/anything which people can point to a contradiction to my theory...:cool:

...
aside all of that, i'm still wondering that would i be remembering those badminton players who win SS titles and/or them who were Olympic or World champions and who gave their country pride and joy in so many years ahead...???
...
..a few would even remember who won the "Kacang Telur Brand" Championships or "Kacang Puteh Brand" Championships..

[wilcan]

yes u rite
LCW and LD are ss level players
and then LD and TH are WC and OG level players
soooo which one is better?? ss level or wc and og level?
ask LCW which one he want,amount of ss title or one wc and one og medal

[limsy]

ask LCW which one he want,amount of ss title or one wc and one og medal

he already had one og medal;)
maybe a wc medal he need:p

[wilcan]

yeah a silver medal that made him become a ss level players

[Destricto_Ense]

If silver counts as a medal then Taufik has loads of SS "victories" :P

[wilcan]

If silver counts as a medal then Taufik has loads of SS "victories" :P

haha u get what i mean

[cooler]

Sun, 01 Nov 2009

Ever since Lin Dan and i played our first match against each other, the media and the public has always dubbed them as a duel between the two of us, how we are enemies, etc.
When, it was never about that to begin with.
Though we may not share a close relationship as i am with Chong Wei or Peter, Lin Dan and i share a respect and admiration on both of our abilities on and off the court.

What do you think?

i think it's buncha flowerly bs public relation craps

just look at the french open introduction ceremony. Does his body language, eye contact to go with those warm and heart-felt words in his blog? lol After reading that blog for the first time, i thot TH would jump on LD and start hugging him and do cheek to cheek greeting LOL

[Destricto_Ense]

You got all that from "We don't have a close relationship but we respect and admire each other"?



Ah, cooler, such spitefulness towards Mr. Hidayat as always.

http://www.agoravox.fr/IMG/do_not_feed_trolls.jpg

[ctjcad]

yes u rite
LCW and LD are ss level players
and then LD and TH are WC and OG level players
soooo which one is better?? ss level or wc and og level?
ask LCW which one he want,amount of ss title or one wc and one og medal
True, TH has the OG and WC titles secured in his pocket...oh, and throw in those 2 AG titles as well...
But, what has he done since to back up those major titles????...in a way, with his empty cabinet of SS titles, winning only those 2 titles make it seems like they were stolen or gifted to him...:confused:

The only difference i see between him and LD is:
LD has a bigger sack of SS titles to accompany his numerous AE, WC and OG titles.

So, which one is better if you ask me? I'd say, it's better to follow in the footsteps of LD. If Taufik really is an OG and WC winner, then start showing the world he means business and start winning some SS. Where's the consistency??..

[wilcan]

i just ask u about ss and og/wc which one is better
i never say that TH better than LD..and i never say that TH is better than LCW..they all are great player..
LD is a king of badminton now...unless he try to play MD

maybe in TH dream had been given chance to choose mount of SS or couple of prestigious title..and he choose the pretigious title

[Destricto_Ense]

maybe in TH dream had been given chance to choose mount of SS or couple of prestigious title..and he choose the pretigious title
Heh, an unlikely explanation :p
I think a good point was made earlier that Taufik has had difficulty winning tournaments that require 6 victories in a row as opposed to 5. He's always been inconsistent. As a fan that can make things a bit disheartening at times ... but it keeps you on your toes :)

[cooler]

You got all that from "We don't have a close relationship but we respect and admire each other"?



Ah, cooler, such spitefulness towards Mr. Hidayat as always.

http://www.agoravox.fr/IMG/do_not_feed_trolls.jpgobviously u bought his sell job.
hey, i'm not gonna stop you but at least i didn't label u as a gullible ______ person. Everything i've said about TH has historical data to stand on. Where are yours?

[Destricto_Ense]

I think Taufik must have sold you a fake racquet in the past, this is just too funny :D

[cooler]

I think Taufik must have sold you a fake racquet in the past, this is just too funny :Dof all the late night show comedians, i like David Letterman the least. U know why? His jokes sometime are so crappy (ie. not funny at all) that audience don't laugh but he laugh it off himself anyway. Kinda like a self back tracking, saving face gesture i guess. So when his sexcapade with his lady staff was revealed, it kinda prove my view i held on his character as well ---> a fake, a low class comedian.

So, u think i bot a fake racket from TH when my whole point in this thread was that he's a fake?

[Destricto_Ense]

You should watch Eddie Izzard. If the audience doesn't laugh he mimes taking notes on a notepad and mutters "should be funnier..."

[ctjcad]

i just ask u about ss and og/wc which one is better
i never say that TH better than LD..and i never say that TH is better than LCW..they all are great player..
LD is a king of badminton now...unless he try to play MD

maybe in TH dream had been given chance to choose mount of SS or couple of prestigious title..and he choose the pretigious title
..if i want to go around and brag that i've won the OG and WC, of course, i'd take the OG and WC.

But looking at his accomplishments now, it seems like his WC and OG were stolen or gifted...

Stop bringing past glories and start bringing present...and future glories!:cool:

[cooler]

You should watch Eddie Izzard. If the audience doesn't laugh he mimes taking notes on a notepad and mutters "should be funnier..."

i don't watch david letterman show, why should i for eddie?
i watched only 2 of his earlier shows when i was a young student back then.
that's all.

hmmm, i wonder who's the real troll here

[badadum]

..if i want to go around and brag that i've won the OG and WC, of course, i'd take the OG and WC.

But looking at his accomplishments now, it seems like his WC and OG were stolen or gifted...

Stop bringing past glories and start bringing present...and future glories!:cool:

Cmon chris, that'll be true to any player. As they got past their prime, their performance will drop. No one can fight father time. Look at Tony G. He's an OG and WC winner, yet what has he accomplished recently? I doubt anyone will ever accuse Tony's OG and WC winnings as "gifted" though.

[ctjcad]

..if i recall, he did win a SS title..:cool:..btw, you can't compare Tony G. who's past 30 y.o. to Taufik who is much younger..even Gade, who's older than Taufik, has won a few SS titles..:cool:

[ye333]

Of course currently TH is clearly below LD and LCW. But mentioning his bad record against CJ and BCL to argue that he does not deserve his No.3 spot is not really fair. Yes TH is having a bad H2H against CJ and BCL; But on the other hand he is having very good H2H against PG, SDK and PSH, who are at the same level as CJ and BCL.

A point is a point. GP points may be cheap, but SS points are not. TH earned his 35K SS points by consistently beating lesser players (which many other top players fail to do), and furthermore winning a good share of matches against top ones.


:p

- Really??..i thought i'm simply pointing out the reality??..:confused:
- Yes, i'm sure you know part of the reason why TH has raked abt 35k pts. See also my post #108.
- I'm open w/anything which people can point to a contradiction to my theory...:cool:

..a few would even remember who won the "Kacang Telur Brand" Championships or "Kacang Puteh Brand" Championships..

[cooler]

A point is a point. GP points may be cheap, but SS points are not. TH earned his 35K SS points by consistently beating lesser players (which many other top players fail to do), and furthermore winning a good share of matches against top ones.but many top players don't lose to JP before, an that was when JP was just entering the pro circuit. LOL. Maybe TH gave out too many good advice to JP (when TH was help out JP on the sideline during a JP's match).

[cooler]

Of course currently TH is clearly below LD and LCW. But mentioning his bad record against CJ and BCL to argue that he does not deserve his No.3 spot is not really fair. Yes TH is having a bad H2H against CJ and BCL; But on the other hand he is having very good H2H against PG, SDK and PSH, who are at the same level as CJ and BCL.

like i said before, chinese pros were trained to beat TH as one of their nemesis. TH voodoo doll and pic on dart board, the whole shebang LOL

[ye333]

What are you talking about? TH lost to JP in last year's Japan Open, which is already more than 1 year ago, and we are talking about his current 35K SS points here.


but many top players don't lose to JP before, an that was when JP was just entering the pro circuit. LOL. Maybe TH gave out too many good advice to JP (when TH was help out JP on the sideline during a JP's match).

[ye333]

Not really. Chinese players are good at power, speed, and stamina. So they will do well against opponents who are not good at these. Coincidently, in the current MS top 10, TH is the worst on these issues. :cool:


like i said before, chinese pros were trained to beat TH as one of their nemesis. TH voodoo doll and pic on dart board, the whole shebang LOL

[badadum]

..if i recall, he did win a SS title..:cool:..btw, you can't compare Tony G. who's past 30 y.o. to Taufik who is much younger..even Gade, who's older than Taufik, has won a few SS titles..:cool:

Some here would say that Taufik is over 30 as well. :p

Tony G's SS title was from 2007. His last title (of any tourney) was a GP gold title this year. His record is even worse than Taufik in term of in SS events this year(best result is a lone SF appearance). Point is, his performance now is nowhere near what he has during his hey-day...just like Taufik is....but you wouldn't call Tony's OG and WC winning as gifted/stolen, wouldn't you?

[kuwichert]

like i said before, chinese pros were trained to beat TH as one of their nemesis. TH voodoo doll and pic on dart board, the whole shebang LOL

yep, exactly, and most fun is watching chinese spectators on their home soil if the match doesn't go as they did pray for:D:D:D
the no respect for any other player is something I really hate but I had to watch many times - the crowd simply goes home if their fellows are loosing, even it is the final match and their fellows have to enter the podium for the ceremony - they will simply stand allone as I had seen a couple of times watching chinese open in Guangzhou:mad::mad::mad: they have no respect, they look at you as if you're from outta space when you show your respect and clapp your hands for simply great badminton, no idea at all of what sports is all about, it's always civil war:eek:

[kuwichert]

[quote=ctjcad;1289382].yes, how many more names would you add?? and under what criterias?..:confused:

what about the knight?:eek:


But I guess the only one you give a chance is that bold chinese fellow named WTGTMS (who the givl took my scalp) LOL

/quote]

[cooler]

yep, exactly, and most fun is watching chinese spectators on their home soil if the match doesn't go as they did pray for:D:D:D
the no respect for any other player is something I really hate but I had to watch many times - the crowd simply goes home if their fellows are loosing, even it is the final match and their fellows have to enter the podium for the ceremony - they will simply stand allone as I had seen a couple of times watching chinese open in Guangzhou:mad::mad::mad: they have no respect, they look at you as if you're from outta space when you show your respect and clapp your hands for simply great badminton, no idea at all of what sports is all about, it's always civil war:eek:
relax.
If you're a soccer fan in england and sat alone in the 'wrong' fan section.
They will beat the crap out of u. Getting stare at isn't that painful:p

[cooler]

What are you talking about? TH lost to JP in last year's Japan Open, which is already more than 1 year ago, and we are talking about his current 35K SS points here.oh, i wasn't following your guys debating TH being ss player or not. All i know is no SS winner has lost to JP before lol. Mind u, i was impressed by JP at the recent french open.

[arowana]

[quote=ctjcad;1289382].yes, how many more names would you add?? and under what criterias?..:confused:

what about the knight?:eek:


But I guess the only one you give a chance is that bold chinese fellow named WTGTMS (who the givl took my scalp) LOL

/quote]

haha, better relax kuwichert and don´t feed the trolls...;) just laugh about trolls with 15000 posts in a computerforum who invent criteria for an own superseries standard like it could become a science and write 4 or 5 pages how this works out for poor taufik and why he is not a worldclass player, even when he was runnerup this weekend... haha... only shows that there is not much badminton going on in north america

[cooler]

[QUOTE=arowana;1290128]

i didn't say TH isn't a world class playa. I said JP was able to beat TH before, a feat JP couldn't do against other SS winners. Trolls are those who post garbage. What i've said here is a reminder of an event that have occured.

[Athelete1234]

I will just say you're extremely provocative in what you choose to post...

[cooler]

I will just say you're extremely provocative in what you choose to post...i ask u, who like to read boring stuffs?

don't deny yourself, i welcome any good positive spin u have on TH. Please inform/educate us all. This thread is your platform. Please be my guest

[badadum]

Kendrick Lee beat CJ, a feat that Kendrick never did against any other SS winners...
CL beat LCW, a feat that CL never did against any other SS winners....
Hardly unique.

[Babyface]

just watched the final, lin dan won convincingly :)... however, taufik, in the second day did show glimpse of class.
i do hope TH will get his SS soon

[ctjcad]

...
haha, better relax kuwichert and don´t feed the trolls...;) just laugh about trolls with 15000 posts in a computerforum who invent criteria for an own superseries standard like it could become a science and write 4 or 5 pages how this works out for poor taufik and why he is not a worldclass player, even when he was runnerup this weekend... haha... only shows that there is not much badminton going on in north america
- Now you're calling people with 15,000 posts as trolls?? my man, kwun and cooler have much more posts than me. are you gonna call them trolls too??..:eek::confused:
- I've given my reasons and facts to back up my argument. How about those who don't agree. What reasons and facts do they have to provide to counter my argument?..
- Btw, no one is suggesting Taufik is not a world class player. All i've been mentioning (if you've been reading) is he is not a Super Series level player or not a Super Series champion level player. Comprende??..
- Don't underestimate BCers from the U.S. or North America just because there's not much badminton going on here..:cool:

...what about the knight?:eek:

But I guess the only one you give a chance is that bold chinese fellow named WTGTMS (who the givl took my scalp) LOL
- What about your gallant knight??..sure he made it to the Finals in the recent Denmark Open. Question now is, can he be consistent and do the same feat 80% of the time?..:confused:
- No, i have 2 names which i'll give a chance, as i already mentioned: LD and LCW.

Some here would say that Taufik is over 30 as well. :p

Tony G's SS title was from 2007. His last title (of any tourney) was a GP gold title this year. His record is even worse than Taufik in term of in SS events this year(best result is a lone SF appearance). Point is, his performance now is nowhere near what he has during his hey-day...just like Taufik is....but you wouldn't call Tony's OG and WC winning as gifted/stolen, wouldn't you?
- Age cheating, eh, for Taufik...:o
- Yeah, it was from 2007 & it still counts, doesn't it? It ain't matter & i don't care if it's from 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011. Point is, he has one in his back pocket in comparison to Taufik. Yes, i know Tony hasn't done very well. It's expected and no one is surprised considering his age and lack of training time.
I wouldn't call Tony's OG and WC title as gift or stolen because he's proven himself by winning a SS, basically, at the downside of his career. He also did it with a half-retired ex-compatriot w/lack of full time training.
- How about Taufik?? Should we gift or just hand him a SS title??..:eek::confused:

Of course currently TH is clearly below LD and LCW. But mentioning his bad record against CJ and BCL to argue that he does not deserve his No.3 spot is not really fair. Yes TH is having a bad H2H against CJ and BCL; But on the other hand he is having very good H2H against PG, SDK and PSH, who are at the same level as CJ and BCL.

A point is a point. GP points may be cheap, but SS points are not. TH earned his 35K SS points by consistently beating lesser players (which many other top players fail to do), and furthermore winning a good share of matches against top ones.
- If you've been reading my posts in this thread, I've never used their H2H records as the basis of my argument. I'm only referring to their overall SS record (from its inception in 2007).
- That's my whole point on how TH was able to garner 35k pts. Please read again my post #108.

[chris-ccc]

.
Just visiting this thread again. Found that we are now talking about 'who are the true SS players'.

If we are just talking only about who are the 'true' SS level players (for whatever year), then we could pay attention to BWF's invitations to their SS players who qualify to participate in their SS Masters Finals.

For the 2009 SS Masters Finals, there are still 2 more tournaments for players to qualify, namely:
* 2009 Hong Kong Open (10-15 Nov)
* 2009 China Open (17-22 Nov)

So, why not let the BWF SS Qualifying System decide who are the 'true' SS level players?
.

[ctjcad]

..only reflects the top 8 players or pairs based on SS total ranking points.
So, if LD is ranked #9 at the end of this yr, he is not considered a "true" Super Series player??..And say, if Joachim Persson is ranked #1, is he considered a "true" Super Series player?...In my book, LinDan is, even if he is ranked outside of the top 10.:cool:

[cooler]

just watched the final, lin dan won convincingly :)... however, taufik, in the second day did show glimpse of class.
i do hope TH will get his SS soonsecond day or second game?
anyway, i too wish TH win some titles. What's good for TH is good for badminton as he also has many fans worldwide. Good for badminton

ss or not, to me, it is how many and what kind of titles won. Also how the player perform on the court like did he try his hardest, does he has the wit to change his game plan to make a come back?

This time at the french open, taufik did something not usually done against LD, even tho he lost the 1st set, by a large margin, he change game plan and use what work on the 2nd set. Usually, he just folds or wind down the match.

[ctjcad]

..what kind of titles are you referring to??.."Kacang Puteh Brand" local championships? Satellite tourney? International tourney? GP? GP Gold? Super Series??..The All England??..:confused:;)

[chris-ccc]

..only reflects the top 8 players or pairs based on SS total ranking points.
So, if LD is ranked #9 at the end of this yr, he is not considered a "true" Super Series player??..And say, if Joachim Persson is ranked #1, is he considered a "true" Super Series player?...In my book, LinDan is, even if he is ranked outside of the top 10.:cool:






Just visiting this thread again. Found that we are now talking about 'who are the true SS players'.

If we are just talking only about who are the 'true' SS level players (for whatever year), then we could pay attention to BWF's invitations to their SS players who qualify to participate in their SS Masters Finals.

For the 2009 SS Masters Finals, there are still 2 more tournaments for players to qualify, namely:
* 2009 Hong Kong Open (10-15 Nov)
* 2009 China Open (17-22 Nov)

So, why not let the BWF SS Qualifying System decide who are the 'true' SS level players?



.
That's the point.

At one stage, I wasn't even sure if Lin Dan was interested to be a SS player. It's because he was missing from a few SS tournaments.

Lin Dan is a great player. But if he wishes not to be involved in SS tournaments, we have to respect his wishes.
.

[ctjcad]

..we, at least myself, can't really use the BWF SS Masters Finals invitation to determine who are the "true" Super Series players/pairs. Because simply, they're ranked based on the total ranking pts (accummulated pts).
Ruling is, only the top 8 players/pairs are able to participate in the SS Masters Final.

That's why i brought up a scenario, if LD was ranked no.9 (outside of the top 8), he wouldn't be able to qualify to participate (unless 1 or more players from the top 8 refuse to attend). And if Joachim Persson was ranked #1, that doesn't necessarily qualify him to become a "true" Super Series player.
In my book, LD is still a "true" Super Series player even if he is ranked outside of the top 10 (based on his performance).

[chris-ccc]

..we, at least myself, can't really use the BWF SS Masters Finals invitation to determine who are the "true" Super Series players/pairs. Because simply, they're ranked based on the total ranking pts (accummulated pts).

Ruling is, only the top 8 players/pairs are able to participate in the SS Masters Final.

That's why i brought up a scenario, if LD was ranked no.9 (outside of the top 8), he wouldn't be able to qualify to participate (unless 1 or more players from the top 8 refuse to attend). And if Joachim Persson was ranked #1, that doesn't necessarily qualify him to become a "true" Super Series player.

In my book, LD is still a "true" Super Series player even if he is ranked outside of the top 10 (based on his performance).



.
Puzzled :confused::confused::confused:

Are we now talking about who are the better players overall, or who are the better SS players?
.

[phaarix]

- Now you're calling people with 15,000 posts as trolls?? my man, kwun and cooler have much more posts than me. are you gonna call them trolls too??..:eek::confused:

Kwun? No (of course not...). cooler? Ermm.. yes (is that really that surprising)? You? No, I just think you have a weird or unusual view on some things hehe. For instance that cooler is apparently "not" a troll :rolleyes::p.


- I've given my reasons and facts to back up my argument. How about those who don't agree. What reasons and facts do they have to provide to counter my argument?..

I don't see how you think your facts are any more "fact" than what the people who oppose you have put forward. You can bring up statistics all you like. You can twist things any way you choose. You can boast about all your so called facts, and the apparent lack of everyone else's, and why you're right and everyone else is wrong.

But in the end - what we're discussing here really IS down to personal opinion. There are NO real facts that can lead you to a definitive answer. Statistics can be interpreted as you choose. Take the media for example, and the way they manipulate them to form an often misleading idea. And as for consistent, definitions of such a broad meaning are just going to have to be down to the individual. It also depends on the context.

Why argue when no ONE answer is necessarily the right one? Everyone's own answer is right in their own case :).


I wouldn't call Tony's OG and WC title as gift or stolen because he's proven himself by winning a SS, basically, at the downside of his career. He also did it with a half-retired ex-compatriot w/lack of full time training.

That's quite biased though don't you think...... ONE Super Series title makes all the difference? That's no fact, that's just silly.

Before you say I'm contradicting myself... it's umm.. just my opinion that it's silly :D.

[mettayogi]

I believe you're trying to show BWF SS ranking rule is silly. I'm not convinced you've presented your case well.

IIUC, the SS Masters Finals ranking is based on "SS" ranking points. So if LD didn't participate enough SS to qualify, it's unfortunate but fair to exclude LD. If LD wants to play SS Masters Finals, he simply needs to play and win more SS points first.

BWF's goal, I believe, is to encourage top players to play many SS to establish SS as badminton's premiere events. If you can't convince fellow BCer that your criteria makes more sense, I don't think BWF should pay attention, either.


..we, at least myself, can't really use the BWF SS Masters Finals invitation to determine who are the "true" Super Series players/pairs. Because simply, they're ranked based on the total ranking pts (accummulated pts).
Ruling is, only the top 8 players/pairs are able to participate in the SS Masters Final.

That's why i brought up a scenario, if LD was ranked no.9 (outside of the top 8), he wouldn't be able to qualify to participate (unless 1 or more players from the top 8 refuse to attend). And if Joachim Persson was ranked #1, that doesn't necessarily qualify him to become a "true" Super Series player.
In my book, LD is still a "true" Super Series player even if he is ranked outside of the top 10 (based on his performance).

[Babyface]

cooler: second game :)
i too agree with you that taufik changed his game plan unlike the usual 'give up' stages he goes through. i hope it is a turning point for him in his career. Regardless, i also agree that taufik is a player people like to watch.

[cooler]

I will just say you're extremely provocative in what you choose to post...


Regardless, i also agree that taufik is a player people like to watch.

because TH is a provocative player;)

[ytyang]

I suppose if we replace the 'SS player' by the 'ELITE player' per cticad's criteria, then
it might cause less confusion. So a player who has won a SS title may not qualify,
nor an OG winner. Even TH is not in it, it still does not preclude him from being a legendary player.
One may or may not agree with cticad's criteria, but he does present his case
understandable. Just my opinion.

[kuwichert]

relax.
If you're a soccer fan in england and sat alone in the 'wrong' fan section.
They will beat the crap out of u. Getting stare at isn't that painful:p

same here in the soccer stadiums, but we're talking about Badminton:eek: and that's completely different all over the world,:cool: except in that country called 'mainland':D:D:D

[kuwichert]

..only reflects the top 8 players or pairs based on SS total ranking points.
So, if LD is ranked #9 at the end of this yr, he is not considered a "true" Super Series player??..And say, if Joachim Persson is ranked #1, is he considered a "true" Super Series player?...In my book, LinDan is, even if he is ranked outside of the top 10.:cool:

that's the problem of having a unique book no others know about LOL:D:D:D

[kuwichert]

.
That's the point.

At one stage, I wasn't even sure if Lin Dan was interested to be a SS player. It's because he was missing from a few SS tournaments.

Lin Dan is a great player. But if he wishes not to be involved in SS tournaments, we have to respect his wishes.
.
How do you know what Lin Dan is thinking or what his dreams are?:confused::confused:
Beside of the fact that all of us would like to get statements, thoughts - whatever- frequently - simply again a fact Taufik is miles (or ages:eek:) in front of him:D:D:D - do we not simply see only the results of LYB's wishes and thoughts:confused: - or what was it at the All England before Olympics :confused:
I don't wanna reopen that topic again we all over the world complaint a lot (except the chinese fellows supporting that 'unfair play') --- just don't do such statements - or are we talking here to the under cover Lin Dan:eek:

[chris-ccc]

I suppose if we replace the 'SS player' by the 'ELITE player' per cticad's criteria, then
it might cause less confusion. So a player who has won a SS title may not qualify,
nor an OG winner. Even TH is not in it, it still does not preclude him from being a legendary player.

One may or may not agree with cticad's criteria, but he does present his case
understandable. Just my opinion.



.
IMHO, Taufik Hidayat should be included as one of the top SS level players.

Currently, Taufik is ranked as the No.3 player in the SS tournaments (as at 29-Oct-2009):
click here (http://bwf.tournamentsoftware.com/ranking/ranking.aspx?rid=70)
.

[chris-ccc]

How do you know what Lin Dan is thinking or what his dreams are? :confused::confused:

Beside of the fact that all of us would like to get statements, thoughts - whatever- frequently - simply again a fact Taufik is miles (or ages:eek:) in front of him:D:D:D - do we not simply see only the results of LYB's wishes and thoughts:confused: - or what was it at the All England before Olympics :confused:

I don't wanna reopen that topic again we all over the world complaint a lot (except the chinese fellows supporting that 'unfair play') --- just don't do such statements - or are we talking here to the under cover Lin Dan :eek:



.
:D:D:D Correct... None of us can speak for Lin Dan (except for LYB).
Kindly point out the post that I have appeared to be the spokesperson for Lin Dan.
.

[ctjcad]

:p..*sigh* it seems like you guys are not catching my point of argument here.

One more time, here it is:
I am only concerned about players' Super Series records. No WC, OG records needed as comparison because i am not concerned abt those.
.
Puzzled :confused::confused::confused:

Are we now talking about who are the better players overall, or who are the better SS players?
.
..neither. I'm referring to your post #160 in regards to your idea of what is a "True" Super Series player/pair. You brought up using the SS Masters Final Qualification system to filter out which players should be on that "True" Super Series players/pair list.
And then of course, i gave a counter-argument (post #161 & 165), after your post, on why i don't think one can use the SS Masters Final Qualification system to justify whether a player should be on the "True" Super Series players list.

Btw, what do you mean by "True"??..is there a "False" Super Series players list?

...
I don't see how you think your facts are any more "fact" than what the people who oppose you have put forward. You can bring up statistics all you like. You can twist things any way you choose. You can boast about all your so called facts, and the apparent lack of everyone else's, and why you're right and everyone else is wrong.

But in the end - what we're discussing here really IS down to personal opinion. There are NO real facts that can lead you to a definitive answer. Statistics can be interpreted as you choose. Take the media for example, and the way they manipulate them to form an often misleading idea. And as for consistent, definitions of such a broad meaning are just going to have to be down to the individual. It also depends on the context.

Why argue when no ONE answer is necessarily the right one? Everyone's own answer is right in their own case :).

That's quite biased though don't you think...... ONE Super Series title makes all the difference? That's no fact, that's just silly.
...
- So tell or show me what have those people, who are on the opposite side of my argument, shown?
I know earlier on, you mentioned you look for a player who consistently makes it to the Semifinals and Finals Rds. as your criteria and suggested Taufik falls under that.
I then sort of debunked what you proposed by bringing forth facts (using Taufik's SS record). It showed otherwise that Taufik wasn't consistent in reaching the Semifinals and Finals Rds., **until** this yr. Which i accept. Yet, it seems everyone else is closing an eye in looking @ TH's SS record since 2007 and the fact that he's SS title-less.
No, i'm not twisting anything. And no, i don't think i'm trying to prove i'm right and everyone else is wrong. Like i mentioned, i'm willing to listen if anyone can find any contradiction in my argument.

- I laid down my point of argument and criterias on who and what i consider a Super Series player, earlier on; actually a couple of times. I also laid down facts, in one of my earlier posts by showing links to LD, LCW and TH's records. I don't know what other facts are needed to show a definitive answer.
So, tell me/us, what is your definition of "consistent".

- Sure, you can make your own claim of whatever you want. I can make my own as well. And so far, i've given enough facts to back up my argument & point of contention (which i hope you're crystal clear). Maybe i haven't been too clear, yet, there is still no one to show me that my argument is off. Even hcyong could figure out what i meant..:cool:

- Silly? in what way? Isn't Super Series record & titles what i'm trying to put forth here and the point of my whole argument/contention??..Both players have roughly the same percentage competing in the SS. Tony G. has one title. Taufik has nil.

I believe you're trying to show BWF SS ranking rule is silly. I'm not convinced you've presented your case well.

IIUC, the SS Masters Finals ranking is based on "SS" ranking points. So if LD didn't participate enough SS to qualify, it's unfortunate but fair to exclude LD. If LD wants to play SS Masters Finals, he simply needs to play and win more SS points first.

BWF's goal, I believe, is to encourage top players to play many SS to establish SS as badminton's premiere events. If you can't convince fellow BCer that your criteria makes more sense, I don't think BWF should pay attention, either.
- Yes, that's sort of what i'm trying to show abt BWF's current SS ranking system. Hmm, on the other hand, I don't think you really get my point of using the LD & JP scenarios.

Please re-read my posts (#161 & 165).

- I totally understand BWF's goal/intention in creating the SSMF by selecting only the top 8 ranked players. And i totally understand that LD needs to attend more SS to gather enough pts and qualify for the SSMF.

- My whole point is in contrast to chris@ccc's argument of let's use the SSMF Qualification system to figure out who are the "True" Super Series players.
So my question is: If LD was able to attend less SS thus collecting less SS ranking pts, and ranked outside of the top 10, does that make him "less" of a "True" Super Series player? IMO, no, it does not. That's my whole point.

I suppose if we replace the 'SS player' by the 'ELITE player' per cticad's criteria, then
it might cause less confusion. So a player who has won a SS title may not qualify,
nor an OG winner. Even TH is not in it, it still does not preclude him from being a legendary player.
One may or may not agree with cticad's criteria, but he does present his case
understandable. Just my opinion.
..we can use any term, actually. But i'm using the "Super Series" level player for my case of argument & that is to point out who are, in my book, the "Super Series level" player.
hcyong's suggestion of "Super Series champion level player" is probably more defined & what i should've used to clear up everything.

that's the problem of having a unique book no others know about LOL:D:D:D
..you can call it unique. But, imo, it's a pretty simple concept. I've even provided the criterias.:cool:

[kuwichert]

.
:D:D:D Correct... None of us can speak for Lin Dan (except for LYB).
Kindly point out the post that I have appeared to be the spokesperson for Lin Dan.
.

don't worry, I'm not searching LOL:D you didn't - no point to discuss, but since we will never know his wishes - how to respect them:eek:, or in other words, nothing to respect:confused::confused:
so - just forget it

[kuwichert]

..you can call it unique. But, imo, it's a pretty simple concept. I've even provided the criterias.:cool:

okydoky, in order to get that one line filled, lets support Taufik next in HK during semi matches:D:D if he gets the winner he gets a good chance to appear in your book and it is no more as boring as it is right now:cool: or would you replace LD in your book in this case:eek:

[ctjcad]

..yes, finally, you figure out on what Taufik needs to do!!:cool:
Yes, your Taufik will probably get in my book should he finally win a SS title...;)..LD & LCW will remain there..

[phaarix]

- So tell or show me what have those people, who are on the opposite side of my argument, shown?
I know earlier on, you mentioned you look for a player who consistently makes it to the Semifinals and Finals Rds. as your criteria and suggested Taufik falls under that.
I then sort of debunked what you proposed by bringing forth facts (using Taufik's SS record). It showed otherwise that Taufik wasn't consistent in reaching the Semifinals and Finals Rds., **until** this yr. Which i accept. Yet, it seems everyone else is closing an eye in looking @ TH's SS record since 2007 and the fact that he's SS title-less.
No, i'm not twisting anything. And no, i don't think i'm trying to prove i'm right and everyone else is wrong. Like i mentioned, i'm willing to listen if anyone can find any contradiction in my argument.

I'm not really interested, it's just an opinion and I don't really think it's worth trying to change anyone elses. We've all put forth our own versions, so good for us :p. We can all pat ourselves on the back.


- I laid down my point of argument and criterias on who and what i consider a Super Series player, earlier on; actually a couple of times. I also laid down facts, in one of my earlier posts by showing links to LD, LCW and TH's records. I don't know what other facts are needed to show a definitive answer.
So, tell me/us, what is your definition of "consistent".

I already have. But my definition of consistent is no more "right" than anyone else's. You can't make consistent 100% though or even Lin Dan isn't consistent. Beyond that, you can't really define an exact cut off point where someone is no longer consistent can you? So it's not worth trying to prove your idea of it is right, because that is impossible.


- Sure, you can make your own claim of whatever you want. I can make my own as well. And so far, i've given enough facts to back up my argument & point of contention (which i hope you're crystal clear). Maybe i haven't been too clear, yet, there is still no one to show me that my argument is off. Even hcyong could figure out what i meant..:cool:

No one to show you that your argument is off?... but I can see many that I believe have put forth very realistic arguments. You're too hung up on your idea that you're "right" when there is no right.

I believe hcyong assumed that you meant Super Series *Champion* standard. Which is completely different. We can understand what you're saying. We just don't agree. However if you *do* rephrase your argument to "SS Champion" standard, then you may find a few more people agree with you.

You're crystal clear, but how crystal clear do I have to be that I don't really think you're wrong, I just don't necessarily agree. No big deal.


- Silly? in what way? Isn't Super Series record & titles what i'm trying to put forth here and the point of my whole argument/contention??..Both players have roughly the same percentage competing in the SS. Tony G. has one title. Taufik has nil.

That's just shallow and you should be able to see that. The difference between a win and a loss could be as little as the luck of a couple of points. Lets look back to the Japan Open 2007. Taufik if I recall came within one point of 20 all in the last set when his strings broke on the final shot. In situations like that, a little luck is ALL that really separates the winner from the loser, and to base your entire judgement on that... and even go so far as to call it one of your "facts", is incredibly short sighted.

Talk about an inconsequential statistic. It doesn't prove in any way that Taufik is not deserving of a title. Circumstances are hugely different for both players. You can hardly compare.

You CAN'T prove anything (neither can I - just because I think he deserves one doesn't mean he necessarily should have one). It's just one of those things. You just can't, so don't bother...

Also it's nice to hear your book has room for a few more should they prove themselves up to your personal criteria :).

[kuwichert]

..yes, finally, you figure out on what Taufik needs to do!!:cool:
Yes, your Taufik will probably get in my book should he finally win a SS title...;)..LD & LCW will remain there..

thanks for the corteous offer to put Taufik in your book - hopefully after HK finals already:D
but why is LD remaining there forever? That's crazy and deletes your one-line paper automatically from all book lists of this world:eek:
take a look at SH SS draw, LD might go home after his first match already- why do you wanna keep him in your book if this happens?:confused::confused:

[AlanY]

Here are the SS MS titles for the 34 played so far:

LD - 10
LCW - 8
PG - 4
BCL - 3
CJ - 3
SDK - 3
BP - 1
LHI - 1
SS - 1.

Lets try to define the following:

1)SuperSeries level players
2)SuperSeries winners, and
3)SuperSeries ‘reliable’ winners.

For 1), by definition whoever qualified to play is a SS level player.
For 2), again by definition all the 9 above are. With 3 ‘one hit wonder’ and 2 ‘consistent’ winners as in LD and LCW. SDK is an odd ball as he won 3 in a row in 2008, nothing before or ever since.
For 3), I will say if he enters the tournament there is a very good chance that he will ended up on the top podium. Obviously, LD is in this category. LCW is not quite there yet as he needed ‘LD not in the same tournament to be a ‘reliable’ winner’.

So, in summary.

LD is a SuperSeries ‘reliable’ winner,
LCW is a SuperSeries ‘consistent’ winner,
PG, BCL etc are SuperSeries winners, and
TH is a SuperSeries level player.

[ytyang]

Wow, You have just summarized the conclusion of the debate......
LD, LCW are elite players and TH is a legendary player in my book.....

[kuwichert]

Here are the SS MS titles for the 34 played so far:

LD - 10
LCW - 8
PG - 4
BCL - 3
CJ - 3
SDK - 3
BP - 1
LHI - 1
SS - 1.

Lets try to define the following:

1)SuperSeries level players
2)SuperSeries winners, and
3)SuperSeries ‘reliable’ winners.

For 1), by definition whoever qualified to play is a SS level player.
For 2), again by definition all the 9 above are. With 3 ‘one hit wonder’ and 2 ‘consistent’ winners as in LD and LCW. SDK is an odd ball as he won 3 in a row in 2008, nothing before or ever since.
For 3), I will say if he enters the tournament there is a very good chance that he will ended up on the top podium. Obviously, LD is in this category. LCW is not quite there yet as he needed ‘LD not in the same tournament to be a ‘reliable’ winner’.

So, in summary.

LD is a SuperSeries ‘reliable’ winner,
LCW is a SuperSeries ‘consistent’ winner,
PG, BCL etc are SuperSeries winners, and
TH is a SuperSeries level player.

since we need to consider what's the fun for us watching the games one category's missing: most entertaining player :eek:
the top place of this podium is occupied by Taufik, and there is nobody who is capable, qualified or even seen to replace him:D:D:D

[huangkwokhau]

Soon we will argue who is the OG or WC player...sigh! I hope TH is in it....

[AlanY]

while we're on the SS winners, can anyone guess who is the most prolific winner? not that obvious.

[chris-ccc]

Here are the SS MS titles for the 34 played so far:

LD - 10
LCW - 8
PG - 4
BCL - 3
CJ - 3
SDK - 3
BP - 1
LHI - 1
SS - 1.


So, in summary.

LD is a SuperSeries ‘reliable’ winner,
LCW is a SuperSeries ‘consistent’ winner,
PG, BCL etc are SuperSeries winners, and
TH is a SuperSeries level player.



.
The above summary will change after each SS tournament.

It's good to see that BCL is no longer known as "Mr.SS Runner-up", as many BCers used to tease him before.

Will TH follow BCL's footsteps? - Win some SS titles, and then be removed from the BWF's Top 10 ranking players' list? :D:D:D
.

[ctjcad]

:p..

I'm not really interested, it's just an opinion and I don't really think it's worth trying to change anyone elses. We've all put forth our own versions, so good for us :p. We can all pat ourselves on the back.

I already have. But my definition of consistent is no more "right" than anyone else's. You can't make consistent 100% though or even Lin Dan isn't consistent. Beyond that, you can't really define an exact cut off point where someone is no longer consistent can you? So it's not worth trying to prove your idea of it is right, because that is impossible.

No one to show you that your argument is off?... but I can see many that I believe have put forth very realistic arguments. You're too hung up on your idea that you're "right" when there is no right.

I believe hcyong assumed that you meant Super Series *Champion* standard. Which is completely different. We can understand what you're saying. We just don't agree. However if you *do* rephrase your argument to "SS Champion" standard, then you may find a few more people agree with you.

You're crystal clear, but how crystal clear do I have to be that I don't really think you're wrong, I just don't necessarily agree. No big deal.

That's just shallow and you should be able to see that. The difference between a win and a loss could be as little as the luck of a couple of points. Lets look back to the Japan Open 2007. Taufik if I recall came within one point of 20 all in the last set when his strings broke on the final shot. In situations like that, a little luck is ALL that really separates the winner from the loser, and to base your entire judgement on that... and even go so far as to call it one of your "facts", is incredibly short sighted.

Talk about an inconsequential statistic. It doesn't prove in any way that Taufik is not deserving of a title. Circumstances are hugely different for both players. You can hardly compare.

You CAN'T prove anything (neither can I - just because I think he deserves one doesn't mean he necessarily should have one). It's just one of those things. You just can't, so don't bother...

Also it's nice to hear your book has room for a few more should they prove themselves up to your personal criteria :).
- Where have i tried to change anyone else's opinions? All i did was to defend my point of argument and contention. Maybe to you it seems i'm trying to change your or anyone else's opinions??. I also mentioned that if anyone else doesn't agree with my criterias and is happy with Taufik finishing as a Runner-Up, Semifinalist or QFist, then more power to them and we can all agree to disagree. So, what's the beef?..:confused:

- That's fine if your definition of "consistent" is no more right than anyone else. I just want to know or if you've already given it, could you repeat it again (if you have a different definition)? And if you read my previous posts carefully, my criteria for "consistent" is reaching the Semifinals or Finals Rds (this part is based on your requirements) close to or around 80% of the tournaments. Never did i mention 100% as "consistent", did i? If your definition of "consistent" is 60% of the time, that's fine too; but you've gotta back it up. That's all.

- In what way? I provided the criterias on what i consider a Super Series "Champion" level player. I've backed it up.
Sure, you or anyone else can provide your own criterias as long as you can back it up with facts and records.

- Okay, then. I shall go with hcyong's term from now on just to make everyone else clear.:p
Whether to agree or not, that's different story and i'm down with that.:cool:

- Wrong in what? If you can disapprove my criterias of a Super Series "Champion" level player, i'd be willing to oblige and acknowledge so.
Yes, you can disagree & for me it's no big deal.

- 1 pt, tough luck, doesn't it? Yes, we can all assume.
If LCW had better stamina and had less stage fright in last yr's OG and LD was more nervous, then LCW would have had a chance and probably win his 1st OG title.

- Until he proves and shows us, it doesn't show that he is deserving a title. Even if he wins one SS title, in my book, at least, that still falls on the borderline of him joining LD & LCW. That's like joining Simon Santoso, LHI & BP group.;)

- ????...I'm not arguing abt "Which player deserves a SS title or which player doesn't deserve a SS title"..Please re-read my criterias of argument in one of the earlier pages.

- Again, if you re-read my previous posts, i mentioned a few players are on the borderline with joining LD & LCW's level. As long as they can show they can accomplish the criterias i've given forth.

At the end, i just feel a few of you guys are just a bit over-sensitive with my criterias. Maybe can't even swallow the plain truth that TH is not a Super Series "Champion" level material. He could reach the Final Rd., but, not good enough or a few would say, not lucky enough, to win it all.
Let's go, Taufik, show us you can win a SS title (and more)!!..

thanks for the corteous offer to put Taufik in your book - hopefully after HK finals already:D
but why is LD remaining there forever? That's crazy and deletes your one-line paper automatically from all book lists of this world:eek:
take a look at SH SS draw, LD might go home after his first match already- why do you wanna keep him in your book if this happens?:confused::confused:
- Taufik will be on the borderline of joining LD & LCW should he win a SS title. To solidify it, he needs to prove that he can do so consistently over the span of 2 yrs.
- LD doesn't have to remain in my criteria forever. For now, yes, because he still shows a consistent record. If he starts faltering and not winning SS titles over 1 yr period, then he'd drop out of the book.

Here are the SS MS titles for the 34 played so far:

LD - 10
LCW - 8
PG - 4
BCL - 3
CJ - 3
SDK - 3
BP - 1
LHI - 1
SS - 1.

Lets try to define the following:

1)SuperSeries level players
2)SuperSeries winners, and
3)SuperSeries ‘reliable’ winners.

For 1), by definition whoever qualified to play is a SS level player.
For 2), again by definition all the 9 above are. With 3 ‘one hit wonder’ and 2 ‘consistent’ winners as in LD and LCW. SDK is an odd ball as he won 3 in a row in 2008, nothing before or ever since.
For 3), I will say if he enters the tournament there is a very good chance that he will ended up on the top podium. Obviously, LD is in this category. LCW is not quite there yet as he needed ‘LD not in the same tournament to be a ‘reliable’ winner’.

So, in summary.

LD is a SuperSeries ‘reliable’ winner,
LCW is a SuperSeries ‘consistent’ winner,
PG, BCL etc are SuperSeries winners, and
TH is a SuperSeries level player.
- Thank you for listing the SS title winners.
- I'm fine with your 3 separate categories. However, i feel it's a bit complicated.
- As i already mentioned, I never discount the other multiple SS winners. If you read my previous posts, i mentioned a few of the players are on the cusp or on the borderline of joining the likes of LD & LCW simply because they have a SS title under their belt. However, they're still not consistent enough in terms of performance in reaching the SF and Finals Rds, thus i can't really put them in the same level as LD & LCW.
Btw, If you'd like to do another research & analysis on my criterias w/those above mentioned players, i'd be happy.:cool:

Soon we will argue who is the OG or WC player...sigh! I hope TH is in it....
..i'll let others do the argument on those. But i'm not arguing abt who is an OG and WC Champion Level players. Yes, there's no question TH (along with others) are in it; that's pretty obvious. However, the list will be much more exclusive. Further, i feel it's hard to quantify who's a WC or even a OG Champion player because those events happen rarely (yearly, for now, for WC and OG every 4 yrs). For Super Series, at least there are 12 tourneys in one yr. and we'd have enough datas and records to give players a chance to be qualified in certain groups.

[copadh]

- It shows that he realizes he is now below LinDan's level. He is at best, a GP or GP Gold level player.
- He could only win a title basically without meeting any of the top CHN players playing. Even then, it's not a guarantee. Or if they're in attendance, they would have to really play below their level to allow Taufik a chance to win.
- Anyone knows when was the last time Taufik won over CHN's top 3 MS players??..
- He wants to go back to practice straight away to prepare for his next tournament?...:p

..i think someone else, perhaps his wife(?) wrote that. I doubt Taufik wrote all of that in English.:p

I just read this thread, and in some point I must agree, Taufik is more mature and friendly since his marriage, become a father, then left pelatnas.
As a professional player, he has his own management, in which --realizes that not many titles he could get lately :)-- do everything they can to help him stay at top level. They know support from fans and good PR is one of the key, and that's what they did.

[george@chongwei]

wow chris and pharix really need to relax la..:cool:
come on guys:p

[AlanY]

:p..

- As i already mentioned, I never discount the other multiple SS winners. If you read my previous posts, i mentioned a few of the players are on the cusp or on the borderline of joining the likes of LD & LCW simply because they have a SS title under their belt. However, they're still not consistent enough in terms of performance in reaching the SF and Finals Rds, thus i can't really put them in the same level as LD & LCW.
Btw, If you'd like to do another research & analysis on my criterias w/those above mentioned players, i'd be happy.:cool:



your wish is my command, i've created a new thread in the 'professional players forum'. anyone like to comment and discuss further can go there.

[ye333]

Simon Santoso lost to JP LOL.


oh, i wasn't following your guys debating TH being ss player or not. All i know is no SS winner has lost to JP before lol. Mind u, i was impressed by JP at the recent french open.

[ye333]

TH also didn't train much either ah... furthermore, how come OG and WC titles in 2004/05 needs to be "proven" by SS titles in 2007-09? :confused:

TH garner his 35K points not only through beating lesser players. Unless you classify PG, Sony, PSH as "lesser players".



- Age cheating, eh, for Taufik...:o
- Yeah, it was from 2007 & it still counts, doesn't it? It ain't matter & i don't care if it's from 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011. Point is, he has one in his back pocket in comparison to Taufik. Yes, i know Tony hasn't done very well. It's expected and no one is surprised considering his age and lack of training time.
I wouldn't call Tony's OG and WC title as gift or stolen because he's proven himself by winning a SS, basically, at the downside of his career. He also did it with a half-retired ex-compatriot w/lack of full time training.
- How about Taufik?? Should we gift or just hand him a SS title??..:eek::confused:

- If you've been reading my posts in this thread, I've never used their H2H records as the basis of my argument. I'm only referring to their overall SS record (from its inception in 2007).
- That's my whole point on how TH was able to garner 35k pts. Please read again my post #108.

[cooler]

Simon Santoso lost to JP LOL.but TH is a gifted magician, has WC and OG titles, how can he loses to JP?

ok, both lost to JP before but simon beat TH in the last denmark open.
Simon is better of the 2 JP's victims

simon's titles won by beating an oldie roslin hashim, and young marc zwielder. I don't call the latter two 'serious top pros'

[badadum]

but TH is a gifted magician, has WC and OG titles, how can he loses to JP?


Same way CH lost to SSM in OG....same way BCL lost to Yo-yo Hashim....the better player doesn't win the game 100% of the time.




ok, both lost to JP before but simon beat TH in the last denmark open.
Simon is better of the 2 JP's victims


must be getting senile in your old age cooler, Taufik didn't even play in the last Denmark Open. :p



simon's titles won by beating an oldie roslin hashim, and young marc zwielder. I don't call the latter two 'serious top pros'

wow...multiple sign of senileness in one post by cooler???:eek: Yo-yo Hashim is the one that played in DO and Simon didn't play him.

[GameGod]

Taufik is certainly a great player, but I don't agree on form being the deciding factor. Nowadays, Taufik would be unlikely to pull off a win against Lin Dan even if he was in his best form ever.

[ye333]

So what? XXZ was 2003 WC champion, he lost to Hafiz 0:15 in 2005 or 06. That loss does not take a bit away from XXZ's 2003 glory.

Suppose you can stay your age, 60 years later almost surely TH will lose to you. :D


but TH is a gifted magician, has WC and OG titles, how can he loses to JP?

ok, both lost to JP before but simon beat TH in the last denmark open.
Simon is better of the 2 JP's victims

simon's titles won by beating an oldie roslin hashim, and young marc zwielder. I don't call the latter two 'serious top pros'

[cooler]

Same way CH lost to SSM in OG....same way BCL lost to Yo-yo Hashim....the better player doesn't win the game 100% of the time.



must be getting senile in your old age cooler, Taufik didn't even play in the last Denmark Open. :p



wow...multiple sign of senileness in one post by cooler???:eek: Yo-yo Hashim is the one that played in DO and Simon didn't play him.
ya, my plate were full already and i shouldn't participate in this SS debate:D
my point was TH is just not any player but a WC and OG winner, and able to lose to JP.

[ctjcad]

TH also didn't train much either ah... furthermore, how come OG and WC titles in 2004/05 needs to be "proven" by SS titles in 2007-09? :confused:

TH garner his 35K points not only through beating lesser players. Unless you classify PG, Sony, PSH as "lesser players".
- The way i look at it, most likely he hasn't train a lot for much of his career (from late teens to just before he left Pelatnas). If he does train much during that 10 yrs period, it'll most likely be in sporadic period (for certain tourneys). Yes, i realize nowadays he's unlikely to get a full blown training like before (because of other commitments).
- I never brought up OG & WC as a comparison or criterias for a player to be put in a Super Series "Champion" level. Please follow the trail of who brought up the WC & OG & SS champions comparison.
- If you read my post #106 and get my point, all i'm trying to point out is that if TH had met LCW, LD, CJ or BCL often, in earlier Rds. (R32 or R16), in those tourneys, most likely he won't finish as high and most likely he won't get that 35k pts.
- Do you, personally, feel PG, Sony, PSH are "lesser" players than both LD & LCW??(in other words, what are the chances of them beating LD & LCW often/consistently?)..if you say "Yes", then that's my answer, too.:cool:

[cooler]

Same way CH lost to SSM in OG....same way BCL lost to Yo-yo Hashim....the better player doesn't win the game 100% of the time.



must be getting senile in your old age cooler, Taufik didn't even play in the last Denmark Open. :p



wow...multiple sign of senileness in one post by cooler???:eek: Yo-yo Hashim is the one that played in DO and Simon didn't play him.


ya, my plate were full already and i shouldn't participate in this SS debate:D
my point was TH is just not any player but a WC and OG winner, and able to lose to JP.

not done yet.

TH lost to JP several years ago, when JP was inexperienced.

Simon lost to an 'improved' JP in this french open which i had also commented on the LD vs JP match, that JP had stretched LD like he never done before.

who cares in which tournament or location TH had lost to JP. Point is that TH lost to an inexperienced non-dominating player at that time:p

[Destricto_Ense]

When was this ?

[cooler]

When was this ?
i think badadum would know, he's not senile as me:p

[badadum]

not done yet.

TH lost to JP several years ago, when JP was inexperienced.

Simon lost to an 'improved' JP in this french open which i had also commented on the LD vs JP match, that JP had stretched LD like he never done before.

who cares in which tournament or location TH had lost to JP. Point is that TH lost to an inexperienced non-dominating player at that time:p

Chen Hong is a WC and multiple time AE winners, SSM is....what?? SSM probably has even less accomplishment than JP...yet CH still lost to him.
Yo Yo Hafiz has ceased to be a major factor since god knows when, yet BCL still lost to him.
As stated before, there's no guarantee better player will always win against lesser player 100% of the time. Heck even LD lost several matches against PSH, where he supposedly is the better player.

At the time TH lost to JP, JP was in the top 8 or 10 ranking, nowhere near a green unexperienced player cooler want you to believe. :p

And if JP is much improved, he won't lost in his own home field against a unranked qualifier. :p

[cooler]

Chen Hong is a WC and multiple time AE winners, SSM is....what?? SSM probably has even less accomplishment than JP...yet CH still lost to him.
Yo Yo Hafiz has ceased to be a major factor since god knows when, yet BCL still lost to him.
As stated before, there's no guarantee better player will always win against lesser player 100% of the time. Heck even LD lost several matches against PSH, where he supposedly is the better player.

At the time TH lost to JP, JP was in the top 8 or 10 ranking, nowhere near a green unexperienced player cooler want you to believe. :p

And if JP is much improved, he won't lost in his own home field against a unranked qualifier. :p

please helpout this senile person, who is SSM and when did it occur?

we don't call yoyo HH for nothing. He can yo back up as well as yo down, wouldn't he? Didn't HH won a title not too long ago, and he also a finalist as well.

Sorry man, i don't view PSH as a push over.

[Destricto_Ense]

i think badadum would know, he's not senile as me:p
The reason I ask is because we all know that Taufik is playing better now than he did a couple of years ago, so him having lost to lower-ranked players isn't that surprising really. I thought early exits were sort of his trademark back then :p

Surely Lin Dan has lost in early rounds too, no? Then again, Lin Dan's progression has been quite linear whereas Taufik's has been more up ... down ... and now back up :)

[volcom]

please helpout this senile person, who is SSM and when did it occur?

we don't call yoyo HH for nothing. He can yo back up as well as yo down, wouldn't he? Didn't HH won a title not too long ago, and he also a finalist as well.

Sorry man, i don't view PSH as a push over.
Shon sueng Mo in OG04 XD
he lost to TH in finals.
CH is an appalling big game player to lose to SSm tbh. :(. I think he played better alter in his career prior to retiring.
He disappointed completely when he was on top of his game, after beating LCW 2-1 before.

[limsy]

He disappointed completely when he was on top of his game, after beating LCW 2-1 before.

huh?
lcw in 2004 is just a small character
just start to win mas open 2004 only;)

[cooler]

So what? XXZ was 2003 WC champion, he lost to Hafiz 0:15 in 2005 or 06. That loss does not take a bit away from XXZ's 2003 glory.

Suppose you can stay your age, 60 years later almost surely TH will lose to you. :Ddifference is, XXZ knows when to quit (of playing high level MS tournament):rolleyes:

[cooler]

The reason I ask is because we all know that Taufik is playing better now than he did a couple of years ago, so him having lost to lower-ranked players isn't that surprising really. I thought early exits were sort of his trademark back then :p

Surely Lin Dan has lost in early rounds too, no? Then again, Lin Dan's progression has been quite linear whereas Taufik's has been more up ... down ... and now back up :)
i ask u then why he goes porn himself in public tournaments when he's only playing half heartedly at best? Why keep wasting PBSI resources and likely keep out one new INA player from entering the team? If he is so gifted with talent, shouldn't he should help out his countrymen?

TH is up again because he has to, like i said before, he is a working joe now. No work or no performance, bye bye contract and sponsorship. LD progression isn't motivated by money but rather only to better oneself and bring pride his country. The money part is just the side benefit.

[badadum]

i ask u then why he goes porn himself in public tournaments when he's only playing half heartedly at best? Why keep wasting PBSI resources and likely keep out one new INA player from entering the team?

TH is up again because he has to, like i said before, he is a working joe now. No work or no performance, bye bye contract and sponsorship. LD progression isn't motivated by money but rather only to better oneself and bring pride his country. The money part is just the side benefit.

err...TH contract with Yonex as well as his winnings and his family had already make him a rich man. Not as rich as LD, but more than a salaried office worker can expect in their life. :p

There's tons of things going on behind the scene between TH and PBSI... Taufik already tried to leave PBSI before.



Shon sueng Mo in OG04 XD
he lost to TH in finals.
CH is an appalling big game player to lose to SSm tbh. :(. I think he played better alter in his career prior to retiring.
He disappointed completely when he was on top of his game, after beating LCW 2-1 before.


Which again show the better player doesn't always win the game. Besides as stated before, JP isn't a greenhorn.

[cooler]

err...TH contract with Yonex as well as his winnings and his family had already make him a rich man. Not as rich as LD, but more than a salaried office worker can expect in their life. :p

There's tons of things going on behind the scene between TH and PBSI... Taufik already tried to leave PBSI before.

i know and i've said it before but got deleted because it got so heated.
It was a nice long post of mine too.
i said TH slow to quit because easy money while being in pbsi is hard to give up, plus his father-in-law doesn't have a cushy job ready for him yet. If he has so much potential, whey didn't he quit pbsi earlier? We all know performance degrade with time.

[ye333]

Look, man. You seem to suggest that only LCW, LD, CJ, BCL are "top players", and conclude that since TH did not meet them early, TH's points are "cheap". This is not fair. As I mentioned, LCW and LD are clearly above others, but PG, SDK, PSH, are no lower than CJ or BCL.

Furthermore, why didn't TH meet LD and LCW in R16 or R32? TH avoided such early clashes by consistently beating nobodies in R16/R32, and beat PG, SDK, PSH in R8 and SF.



- If you read my post #106 and get my point, all i'm trying to point out is that if TH had met LCW, LD, CJ or BCL often, in earlier Rds. (R32 or R16), in those tourneys, most likely he won't finish as high and most likely he won't get that 35k pts.
- Do you, personally, feel PG, Sony, PSH are "lesser" players than both LD & LCW??(in other words, what are the chances of them beating LD & LCW often/consistently?)..if you say "Yes", then that's my answer, too.:cool:

[ctjcad]

Look, man. You seem to suggest that only LCW, LD, CJ, BCL are "top players", and conclude that since TH did not meet them early, TH's points are "cheap". This is not fair. As I mentioned, LCW and LD are clearly above others, but PG, SDK, PSH, are no lower than CJ or BCL.

Furthermore, why didn't TH meet LD and LCW in R16 or R32? TH avoided such early clashes by consistently beating nobodies in R16/R32, and beat PG, SDK, PSH in R8 and SF.
i don't really want to get into a head to head record discussion...but since you brought it up...

- Why is it not fair? All i'm pointing out is the probable cause if TH had met LD, LCW, BCL & CJ; and no i didn't call them "top players". If simply looking at the latter 4 recent head to head record vs. TH, all those players would most likely take out TH should they meet each other. Check their head to head records. Or should we ask AlanY to do another research on this??:confused::p
Question: When was the last time TH beat any of CHN's top 3 MS player??..
- If you read my post carefully, i didn't write "PG, SDK, PSH are lower than CJ and BCL". Please re-read carefully.:cool:
- Sure TH beat the nobodies in R16/R32 and was also somewhat successful beating PG, SDK, PSH in QF or SF. But since the focus is on TH's 35k pts, when he met LD & LCW (or CJ & BCL), what was his record/the results against them??..That's my whole point.

[Ferrerkiko]

After watching Taufik vs Lin dan at french open you tube, Taufik back hand smash still pack power, it troubles lin dan ...

[george@chongwei]

After watching Taufik vs Lin dan at french open you tube, Taufik back hand smash still pack power, it troubles lin dan ...
as cooler said, he's a gifted magician:D

[phaarix]

wow chris and pharix really need to relax la..:cool:
come on guys:p

Just because the posts are long doesn't mean we aren't relaxed :). Anyway, I'm not interested anymore. There no point repeating the same things over and over! Still, I'll probably keep track of the thread... heheh.

[ye333]

I mean, TH lost to LD, LCW, BCL, CJ, so what? If one can conclude from this that TH's points are cheap, then we can apply similar arguments to other players.

For example, if CJ met LD, LCW, PG, PSH more in early rounds, he won't be able to get his 38K points (out of 6) either. If LCW met LD in R32 every time, he won't be able to get his 56K points (out of 8) either. etc. etc.

You didn't write "PG... lower than CJ, BCL", but your argument clearly suggests this. You are saying "Look, TH couldn't beat LCW and the 3 Chinese top guns, so his points are cheap." But the point is, basically LD and LCW beat the hell out of everyone else, and CJ, BCL are just 2 players out of 5 or 6 or 7 similar level ones. Why is TH losing to these 4 particular players such a big deal? Are you saying that, even if TH beats all other players, but as long as he could not pull a win against these 4 guys, his ranking points are meaningless? :confused::confused:


i don't really want to get into a head to head record discussion...but since you brought it up...

- Why is it not fair? All i'm pointing out is the probable cause if TH had met LD, LCW, BCL & CJ; and no i didn't call them "top players". If simply looking at the latter 4 recent head to head record vs. TH, all those players would most likely take out TH should they meet each other. Check their head to head records. Or should we ask AlanY to do another research on this??:confused::p
Question: When was the last time TH beat any of CHN's top 3 MS player??..
- If you read my post carefully, i didn't write "PG, SDK, PSH are lower than CJ and BCL". Please re-read carefully.:cool:
- Sure TH beat the nobodies in R16/R32 and was also somewhat successful beating PG, SDK, PSH in QF or SF. But since the focus is on TH's 35k pts, when he met LD & LCW (or CJ & BCL), what was his record/the results against them??..That's my whole point.

[chris-ccc]

Just because the posts are long doesn't mean we aren't relaxed :). Anyway, I'm not interested anymore. There no point repeating the same things over and over! Still, I'll probably keep track of the thread... heheh.



.
:D:D:D This thread should be renamed to: Our thoughts after the 'Taufik vs Lin Dan' match.
.

[wilcan]

I mean, TH lost to LD, LCW, BCL, CJ, so what? If one can conclude from this that TH's points are cheap, then we can apply similar arguments to other players.

For example, if CJ met LD, LCW, PG, PSH more in early rounds, he won't be able to get his 38K points (out of 6) either. If LCW met LD in R32 every time, he won't be able to get his 56K points (out of 8) either. etc. etc.

You didn't write "PG... lower than CJ, BCL", but your argument clearly suggests this. You are saying "Look, TH couldn't beat LCW and the 3 Chinese top guns, so his points are cheap." But the point is, basically LD and LCW beat the hell out of everyone else, and CJ, BCL are just 2 players out of 5 or 6 or 7 similar level ones. Why is TH losing to these 4 particular players such a big deal? Are you saying that, even if TH beats all other players, but as long as he could not pull a win against these 4 guys, his ranking points are meaningless? :confused::confused:


yeahhh love ur respond...if CJ met LD,LCW,TH in the early round,he wont get his WR now..its do the same for others 3

[Amin Khalili]

We can see many change of Taufik right now(inside,not talking about his game) ... And so as Lin Dan, but just Lin Dan work harder ....

[ctjcad]

I mean, TH lost to LD, LCW, BCL, CJ, so what? If one can conclude from this that TH's points are cheap, then we can apply similar arguments to other players.

For example, if CJ met LD, LCW, PG, PSH more in early rounds, he won't be able to get his 38K points (out of 6) either. If LCW met LD in R32 every time, he won't be able to get his 56K points (out of 8) either. etc. etc.

You didn't write "PG... lower than CJ, BCL", but your argument clearly suggests this. You are saying "Look, TH couldn't beat LCW and the 3 Chinese top guns, so his points are cheap." But the point is, basically LD and LCW beat the hell out of everyone else, and CJ, BCL are just 2 players out of 5 or 6 or 7 similar level ones. Why is TH losing to these 4 particular players such a big deal? Are you saying that, even if TH beats all other players, but as long as he could not pull a win against these 4 guys, his ranking points are meaningless? :confused::confused:
- I'm not concluding TH's ranking pts are "cheap" or "meaningless". He deserved whatever ranking pts he has. My point is, if he had played against any of CHN's top 3 MS players or even LCW, in each of the SS tourney he played before the Semifinals Rd, he most likely would not get that 35k. And what am i basing it on? Yes, his recent H2H records against them. I'm sure you would agree with that, right?
- Yes, you could say the same argument would apply to every player. But we are discussing abt TH's ranking pts, aren't we?
- I'm not making it a big deal. Are you? I'm just pointing out another aspect of how TH was able to get his 35k, that who knows, some people might have not realized/taken into acct.

[ye333]

So you are the one holding high standard for TH. :D


- I'm not concluding TH's ranking pts are "cheap" or "meaningless". He deserved whatever ranking pts he has. My point is, if he had played against any of CHN's top 3 MS players or even LCW, in each of the SS tourney he played before the Semifinals Rd, he most likely would not get that 35k. And what am i basing it on? Yes, his recent H2H records against them. I'm sure you would agree with that, right?
- Yes, you could say the same argument would apply to every player. But we are discussing abt TH's ranking pts, aren't we?
- I'm not making it a big deal. Are you? I'm just pointing out another aspect of how TH was able to get his 35k, that who knows, some people might have not realized/taken into acct.

[ctjcad]

..isn't this what the discussion is all about??..:confused::eek::cool:
If someone else bragged and proudly announced he's won the OG and WC, then shouldn't that person hold a high standard for TH? Segway-ing off that notion, if i don't hold a high standard for TH, what kind of standard do you expect me to hold? A local "Kacang Puteh Brand" championship standard?:confused:

[Destricto_Ense]

ctjcad - this is a segway :
http://hastyruminations.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/segway11.jpg

segue is the word you're looking for :P

[ytyang]

You guys have enlightened me and I hear 'HongKong HongKong' is calling.....

[cooler]

we can chalk this 09 french open MSF as another classic, just like in 09 OG how LD rips apart lcw, this match showed how LD rips apart TH, flinging him around like a toy.

for TH to say those things about LD in his blog, and TH did done his best in this FO, TH knew he has no hope in hell of being #1 or win big titles because LD standing his way. I wonder if indra and taufik-ist still gonna make their grandiose prediction for taufik.

[phaarix]

we can chalk this 09 french open MSF as another classic, just like in 09 OG how LD rips apart lcw, this match showed how LD rips apart TH, flinging him around like a toy.

Don't really agree with that. This match wasn't all that exciting when you compare it to the Olympics. Can hardly call it a classic :rolleyes:. There were a few good moments though.

[cooler]

Don't really agree with that. This match wasn't all that exciting when you compare it to the Olympics. Can hardly call it a classic :rolleyes:. There were a few good moments though.
it is a classic in my book because:

1. it is rare when TH plays seriously for the whole sets.
2. it is one highly anticipated match to watch by all the fans
3. it is played in neutral ground, no alleged game fixing, no excuses for bad refereeing, bad line judging, biased crowd. (actually, the crowded cheered more for TH)
4. it is rare for LD of not being generous (especially in 1st set)

i want to know the difference of level between LD and TH with both playing without holding back. I got to see that in set 1. score 21-6. This difference of score represent the spread of skills between LD and TH currently.

sorry it isn't a classic for u but we all have to be realistic, it would be a blue moon if we all hope to see LD vs TH as finalists in WC, OG AE.
FO is the best venue we got so far. So take your bitter anti-depressant and suck it up:p

[jaydee]

Imho, Taufik WAS one of the best during his days... but he is just not good enough now and I don't think he's got space/ the ability anymore to reach that so called current 'level'/ standards that we're talking about.

Thats just the fact.. sad but true...

[kuwichert]

Imho, Taufik WAS one of the best during his days... but he is just not good enough now and I don't think he's got space/ the ability anymore to reach that so called current 'level'/ standards that we're talking about.

Thats just the fact.. sad but true...

don't worry, this standard is fixed using two names only, no need to think about:D:D:D

[jaydee]

don't worry, this standard is fixed using two names only, no need to think about:D:D:D

lol... thats why I don't wanna mention names... later some ppl get emo and all... :D

[limsy]

Don't really agree with that. This match wasn't all that exciting when you compare it to the Olympics. Can hardly call it a classic :rolleyes:. There were a few good moments though.

hehe
in 5 years time
his hero might also been included to another classic:p
or maybe his hero will retired on time:cool:

[cooler]

hehe
in 5 years time
his hero might also been included to another classic:p
or maybe his hero will retired on time:cool:don't worry bout me or my hero, u should worry about your and where is your next hero will emerge:p

[limsy]

don't worry bout me or my hero, u should worry about your and where is your next hero will emerge:p

hehe
i didnt worry about u
and i didnt have any hero in badminton;)
i only have fave in badminton
like lee yongdae,wanglin,wangyihan,kenichi tago and more;)

[sac_man]

i find his comments somewhat back tracking and reconciliatory. Remember, this guy had said publicly to the media few years ago that LD is arrogant, and bcl is just a boy.

Also to say to win in badminton is like crapshoot, u win some and u lose some. Well, we all know TH had lost to LD more times than not. He had finally come around to now respecting LD because he got beaten by LD so many times and they weren't because of his bad luck.

I like Taufik's style much better than Lin Dan's, as far as personality both of them are arrogant ( in their own way), Neither of them is my fav player, but respect their talent.

I think some Asians players need to learn some diplomacy from Peter Gade and Kenneth Johanssen.


that is just my opinion ( Please do not flame )

[majyun]

hehe
in 5 years time
his hero might also been included to another classic:p
or maybe his hero will retired on time:cool:

don't have to wait for 5 years. His hero has already featured in many of the classic collections as his hero got ripped apart by Chen Jin in IO 09 21-4 in third set. According to his logic, that shows the vast difference between Chen Jin and his hero skill. Oh lets not forget WC 2005, when he lost like a tame cat to TH (15-3?can't remember) in the finals.

[Amin Khalili]

we can chalk this 09 french open MSF as another classic, just like in 09 OG how LD rips apart lcw, this match showed how LD rips apart TH, flinging him around like a toy.

for TH to say those things about LD in his blog, and TH did done his best in this FO, TH knew he has no hope in hell of being #1 or win big titles because LD standing his way. I wonder if indra and taufik-ist still gonna make their grandiose prediction for taufik.
This is what thing that shouldnt be say(I know you are Lin Dan boy and Im Taufik boy, but Im Lin Dan boy too)
Thing that should be have is self confidence, keep trying and never give up. If you think that you will lose then you will.

[cooler]

don't have to wait for 5 years. His hero has already featured in many of the classic collections as his hero got ripped apart by Chen Jin in IO 09 21-4 in third set. According to his logic, that shows the vast difference between Chen Jin and his hero skill. Oh lets not forget WC 2005, when he lost like a tame cat to TH (15-3?can't remember) in the finals.
CJ vs LD is not considered a classic duel. All the chinese players know each other moves and tactic, and u never know wat goes on behind the scene. LD has lost to CJ, CH many times before. LD has lost to bcl b4 too.

as for 05 WC which i know TH fans like to show case endlessly. Well, as i've said before, 04 ot 05 is TH peak years. In 05 WC, LD mentally crashed. TH still has the persona aura from 04 OG win which affect alot of players (even tho i know it was a easy win because he never played a chinese player, and he only has to beat an one-eyed mo shon for the gold). In 05 WC, the inexperienced, the so called one dimensional one mode machine LD didn't see thru TH's fake aura and suffered mental focus. LD was playing like level B+ player, ie. similar to regular club players we see in thousands of clubs. In a way, it was LD that beat himself, not TH. Also, I repeat, u were comparing a peak TH against a ungroomed player. Even with that, LD vs TH H2H was still around 50/50. I believe LD beat TH in 05 sudirman cup.

a fair comparison would be, can a LD u saw in 09 FO beat a TH u remembered in 05 WC? i say, hell yes.

[cooler]

don't have to wait for 5 years. His hero has already featured in many of the classic collections as his hero got ripped apart by Chen Jin in IO 09 21-4 in third set. According to his logic, that shows the vast difference between Chen Jin and his hero skill. Oh lets not forget WC 2005, when he lost like a tame cat to TH (15-3?can't remember) in the finals.

So what, chen hong had beat LD 15-2 in 05 AE rubber set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plVqZ-gPtPE
even when LD was playing this good (one of the finest AE MS final)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCD-_TY51c
So, is CH better than TH?

what had TH done so spectacular in 04 OG, 05 WC, 05 AG that garner him as the best (beside winning the title)? I mean technically, skill wise

[ctjcad]

...
as for 05 WC which i know TH fans like to show case endlessly. Well, as i've said before, 04 ot 05 is TH peak years. In 05 WC, LD mentally crashed. TH still has the persona aura from 04 OG win which affect alot of players (even tho i know it was a easy win because he never played a chinese player, and he only has to beat an one-eyed mo shon for the gold). In 05 WC, the inexperienced, the so called one dimensional one mode machine LD didn't see thru TH's fake aura and suffered mental focus. LD was playing like level B+ player, ie. similar to regular club players we see in thousands of clubs. In a way, it was LD that beat himself, not TH.
...
..some would say LD mentally crashed or wasn't ready mentally.
IMO, who saw the match live, i thought it has more w/LinDan being fatigue physically (i could hardly see LinDan perform his offensive game/attacks) in comparison to a much prepared Taufik (LD played 3 straight rubber matches prior to the Final w/his last match vs. Gade in the SF Rd. lasting nearly 2 hrs, probably the longest match in the entire tourney); in comparison, Taufik played in 1 extra round but only played in 2 rubber matches).
A bit of it has to do with LD's still lack of refinement in his game & overall confidence in facing Taufik.

[cooler]

..some would say LD mentally crashed or wasn't ready mentally.
IMO, who saw the match live, i thought it has more w/LinDan being fatigue physically (i could hardly see LinDan perform his offensive game/attacks) in comparison to a much prepared Taufik (LD played 3 straight rubber matches prior to the Final; Taufik played in 1 extra round but only played in 2 rubber matches).
A bit of it has to do with LD's still lack of refinement in his game & overall confidence in facing Taufik.

maybe ur right, i wasnt there. Whether it's mental or physical unprepareness, it was a top shape TH vs a not so top shape LD in 05 WC. It wasnt TH was playing great, it was LD playing bad. I gave an B+ average performance for LD but really, his performance that day was between B- to A-. A B- performance is comparable to ordinary joe MS club player. In 09 FO, i didnt see TH playing bad at all, it was LD playing much better.

[ctjcad]

..i could tell LD's body language. He wasn't really sharp or just didn't have the "energy" to move around. Just seemed slow or 1 step slow. He tried to make a game of it in the 2nd game, but it wasn't meant to be. I also could see the scoring system as a bit part of the reason (w/Taufik' style, he could still survive with a defensive type scoring system).

[twobeer]

hmm.. Are you guys "really" discussing "Taufik's thoughts after his match against LD" ??

:confused:

/T

[ctjcad]

..for reminding us not to stray off from topic..
So, any comments to add on "Taufik's thoughts after his match against LD" ??..:confused:

[cooler]

hmm.. Are you guys "really" discussing "Taufik's thoughts after his match against LD" ??

:confused:

/T

i try to, i didnt brought up 05 WC, i only post to clarify some misconception;)

[limsy]

don't have to wait for 5 years. His hero has already featured in many of the classic collections as his hero got ripped apart by Chen Jin in IO 09 21-4 in third set. According to his logic, that shows the vast difference between Chen Jin and his hero skill. Oh lets not forget WC 2005, when he lost like a tame cat to TH (15-3?can't remember) in the finals.

hmm
well
there is excuse or 'reason' behind those matches;):p:D

[wilcan]

cooler diam lah!!! TH lost,u say TH play well but the opponent play better. LD lost,u say not the opponent play well but LD beat himself
TH win olympic u say TH didn't play any chinese MS and he only has to beat an one-eyed mo shon
TH win WC by beating chinese MS, u say LD mentally crashed
u must learn how to acknowledge other achievement
why dont u say LD win OG just because he play at home,why dont u say LD win OG because he dont meet INA MS
after this whatelse u will say??TH win HKO coz LD not participate?coz he dont meet LCW?
learn how to acknowledge others achievement

[phaarix]

comparable to ordinary joe MS club player.

Of all the ridiculous claims you've made in the past, this takes the cake... :rolleyes:

[george@chongwei]

cooler diam lah!!! TH lost,u say TH play well but the opponent play better. LD lost,u say not the opponent play well but LD beat himself
TH win olympic u say TH didn't play any chinese MS and he only has to beat an one-eyed mo shon
TH win WC by beating chinese MS, u say LD mentally crashed
u must learn how to acknowledge other achievement
why dont u say LD win OG just because he play at home,why dont u say LD win OG because he dont meet INA MS
after this whatelse u will say??TH win HKO coz LD not participate?coz he dont meet LCW?
learn how to acknowledge others achievement
ouch, that hurts...:p:D