Serve

[Framerate]

Is it a fault serve if I do a forehand serve and turns the racket around just before I hit the ball without loosing pace in the rackets forward movement?

The ball hits the "other" sife of the racket.

Was that understandable???? :D

[ronk]

Here are some of the rules of service:

11. SERVICE

11.1 In a correct service:

11.1.1 Neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the serve.

11.1.2 The server and receiver shall stand within diagonally opposite service courts without touching the boundary lines of these service courts; some part of both feet of the server and receiver must remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position until the service is delivered (Law 11.4);

11.1.3 The server's racket shall initially hit the base of the shuttle while the whole of the shuttle is below the server's waist;

11.1.4 The shaft of the server's racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction to such an extent that the whole of the head of the racket is discernible below the whole of the server's hand holding the racket;

11.1.5 The movement of the server's racket must continue forwards after the start of the service (Law 11.2) until the service is delivered; and

11.1.6 The flight of the shuttle shall be upwards from the server's racket to pass over the net, so that, if not intercepted, it falls in the receiver's service court.

11.2 Once the players have taken their positions, the first forward movement of the server's racket is the start of the service.

11.3 The server shall not serve before the receiver is ready, but the receiver shall be considered to have been ready if a return of service is attempted.

11.4 The service is delivered when, once started (Law 11.2), the shuttle is hit by the server's racket or the shuttle lands on the floor.

11.5 In doubles, the partners may take up any positions which do not unsight the opposing server or receiver.

Here are the service faults:

15. FAULTS

It is a "fault":

15.1 If a service is not correct (Law 11.1);

15.2 If the server, in attempting to serve, misses the shuttle;

15.3 If after passing over the net on service, the shuttle is caught in or on the net;

15.4 If in play, the shuttle:

15.4.1 Lands outside the boundaries of the court;

15.4.2 Passes through or under the net;

15.4.3 Fails to pass the net;

15.4.4 Touches the roof, ceiling, or side walls;

15.4.5 Touches the person or dress of a player; or

15.4.6 Touches any other object or person outside the immediate surroundings of the court; (Where necessary, on account of the structure of the building, the local badminton authority may, subject to the right of veto of its National Organization, make by-laws dealing with cases in which a shuttle touches on obstruction.)

15.5 If, when in play, the initial point of contact with the shuttle is not on the striker's side of the net. (The striker may, however, follow the shuttle over the net with the racket in the course of a stroke).

15.6 If, when the shuttle is in play, a player:

15.6.1 Touches the net or its supports with racket, person or dress;

15.6.2 Invades an opponent's court OVER THE NET with racket or person except as permitted in Law 15.5;

15.6.3 Invades an opponent's court UNDER THE NET with racket or person such that an opponent is obstructed or distracted; or

15.6.4 Obstructs an opponent, i.e. prevents an opponent from making a legal stroke where the shuttle is followed over the net;

15.7 If, in play, a player deliberately distracts an opponent by any action such as shouting or making gestures;

15.8 If, in play, the shuttle:

15.8.1 Be caught and held on the racket and slung during the execution of a stroke;

15.8.2 Be hit twice in succession by the same player with two strokes (A double hit by one player with one stroke is not a fault.); or

15.8.3 Be hit by a player and the player's partner successively; or

15.8.4 Touches a player's racket and continues toward the back of that player's court.

15.9 If a player is guilty of flagrant, repeated or persistent offenses under Law 18.

Looking at rule, 11.1.5 The movement of the server's racket must continue forwards after the start of the service (Law 11.2) until the service is delivered; and ..., would suggest that such serve is a fault. By changing the racket head around, one can construe that the racket or part of the racket is not completely continuing forward. I would call it a fault.

Ron

[Neil Nicholls]

I would say/guess legal as long as some part of the racket was aleays moving forwards.

Consider a backhand serve where you choke down the grip. If you flick the serve, then the butt of the racket move backwards as the racket head moves forwards.

[LazyBuddy]

According to rule "11.1.5 The movement of the server's racket must continue forwards after the start of the service (Law 11.2) until the service is delivered; " and if I pic ur move correctly, I think it's a fault.

Let's pic ur move like a "x-y axis" if someone take pic from overhead camera. Assume u r right hand, and u standing at the origin. So, u start with a forehand move, the racket will travel from positive X to positive Y direction in Quad I. When u start to do the "trick", ur hand still move forward, so as the racket. However, at the moment u start to do the "flick" to switch to "backhand", I assume the head of racket (of at least part of the head, if u "flip" the racket) will be somehow being pulled back toward ur body (neg. Y direction), then released again.

Therefore, since the head of the racket actually has backward movement during the serve, it should be considered as fault.

[Loh]

LB

What a mathematical way to explain this special serve but to me this is quite a clear picture and I agree it should be a fault under this particular section of the Laws.

[ronk]

Thanks LB for explaining with XY coordinates what I was trying to say with as few words as possible. I would consider such a serve a fault. Such a serve while deceptive, will be very inaccurate and wild. Not a good way to serve anyway.

Ron

[Cruxradio]

One gentleman at our club has a serve similar to this however it's probably legal.
He usually serves backhand, so for this serve he uses the same setup as a backhand serve.
When he drops the bird to serve, he changes his racquet from the normal position to a forehand serve all in one motion.
It isn't particularily deceptive but its one of the most original serves I've seen.

[cooler]

LB, under certain movement, one can change from a forward to a backhand serve all in one positive forward motion. However, i dun if this is a fault or not.

I got another one for you to analyse. If i do a forehand or backhand serve, during the forward motion, i twirl the racquet along the shaft axis, is that legal?

[bigredlemon]

15.2 If the server, in attempting to serve, misses the shuttle;

That's a fault? I thought that was a let... as in if you try to serve but miss, you can try to serve again?!
:confused:

[Loh]

BRL

Yes, that's a fault. Quite unlike tennis.

[Yodums]

Hmmmm, if it is one motion I don't think it would be a fault but if you are like stuttering and choke and manage to get it over then I'd rule it as a fault.

[ronk]

I believe that under the old rules, if a player completely misses the shuttlecork, the player got to serve again. Under the new rules, a complete miss is still a fault.

I would interpret the rules and if a player took a backhand stance and held the racket in the backhand position, and in reverse motion, quickly changed to a forehand racket service position (but no leg movement) and then served forehand with the backhand type service stance (I know of players who have the backhand stance while serving forehand), the serve would be legal. It is a continuous motion in the forehand serve. To change the racket from backhand to forehand while in the forward motion would be a fault.

Ron

[bigredlemon]

Originally posted by ronk
I believe that under the old rules, if a player completely misses the shuttlecork, the player got to serve again. Under the new rules, a complete miss is still a fault.

There were new rules? I must have been asleep or something because... whoa!??:confused:

[Framerate]

Originally posted by LazyBuddy
According to rule "11.1.5 The movement of the server's racket must continue forwards after the start of the service (Law 11.2) until the service is delivered; " and if I pic ur move correctly, I think it's a fault.

Let's pic ur move like a "x-y axis" if someone take pic from overhead camera. Assume u r right hand, and u standing at the origin. So, u start with a forehand move, the racket will travel from positive X to positive Y direction in Quad I. When u start to do the "trick", ur hand still move forward, so as the racket. However, at the moment u start to do the "flick" to switch to "backhand", I assume the head of racket (of at least part of the head, if u "flip" the racket) will be somehow being pulled back toward ur body (neg. Y direction), then released again.

Therefore, since the head of the racket actually has backward movement during the serve, it should be considered as fault.

Nope. The head of the racket will not have a backward movement during the serve.
Try it! Start with a normal forehand serve, then just simply turn the racket around within the movement forward. Like a backhand position on your forehand side, ehh, sort of.
It´s not a great way to serve but it confuses the opponent and that is good if you start to loose a lot of points in a row. It looks like a long serve but end up a short, and the hesitation of the opponent will likely give you an easy ball in return and, oups, your back in buisness again. :cool:

Some say it´s a fault but I don´t think the rules say that it is. HELP! :eek:

Try it and give me your opinion or your opponents opinion!
:D

[ronk]

bigredlemon wrote: There were new rules? I must have been asleep or something because... whoa!??

Old rules that were in place when I first started playing badminton. This was when players could deuce at 13 and at 14 (9, 10 for women's). That was a long long time ago when the Thomas cup was the best of 9 matches, etc. :D The IBF has streamlined the game and made minor changes to the game since the era of the dinosaurs.

Ron

[LazyBuddy]

Originally posted by Framerate
Nope. The head of the racket will not have a backward movement during the serve.
Try it! Start with a normal forehand serve, then just simply turn the racket around within the movement forward. Like a backhand position on your forehand side, ehh, sort of.
It´s not a great way to serve but it confuses the opponent and that is good if you start to loose a lot of points in a row. It looks like a long serve but end up a short, and the hesitation of the opponent will likely give you an easy ball in return and, oups, your back in buisness again. :cool:

Some say it´s a fault but I don´t think the rules say that it is. HELP! :eek:

Try it and give me your opinion or your opponents opinion!
:D

hmmm... if u did not move the head backward, then, I assume that the motion of the head is more like a big "C" in air. Say, using right hand, it will intially move to the left front, making a "smooth turn" and becomes a backhand flip.

I still think it's more like a fault, since the racket is not completly making a "forward" move, since somehow, it make a big turn (say, at least 60' or 90'), and the turn could be a sharp one instead of a smooth one.

[LazyBuddy]

Originally posted by cooler


I got another one for you to analyse. If i do a forehand or backhand serve, during the forward motion, i twirl the racquet along the shaft axis, is that legal?

Hmmm... this one really hard to answer, but here's my thoughts:

1. Using my XY axis, and name the intial side facing up is A, and intial side facing down is B. On face A, name the front most point is A1, and back most point is A2.

2. During a forward motion, thirl the racket along the shaft, this will result into the A2 will eventually comes in front of A1. In order to do this, there should be somehow a "pull back" action on A1.

Therefore, I think it's a fault...

[Mag]

Legal or not, I doubt the usefulness of this serve, as I think it could possibly trick very inexperienced players.

And at that level of play, it is hardly considered good sportsmanship to deploy a trick serve which really requires an umpire to judge if it's legal or not.

I would concentrate on perfecting a deceptive "normal" service movement instead.

[Framerate]

I agree Mag. I just wondered because noone can tell, or?:)

[Yodums]

Originally posted by Framerate
I agree Mag. I just wondered because noone can tell, or?:)

Well it is sort of your opinion that is why it'd be so risky to use it in a match.

[LazyBuddy]

Originally posted by Mag


I would concentrate on perfecting a deceptive "normal" service movement instead.

Agree.

That's why we see all the pros just use the "plain" serves, but not any "twisting" or "flipping" tricks. All the tricks are fancy, and might be useful to against inexperience players. However, most of the tricks will cost "delay" or reduce speed/angle, therefore, very easy to make a mistake and giving experienced opponent even more chance to perform a deadly return.

The normal serves might not be useful for us sometimes. This is due to our own problem, such as not yet masterize the proper hand movement, serve angle, etc. It's more like, a tool for us is useless, since we don't know how to use it. It will be useful for professional, just because they can dig out every single piece of usage of the tool.

[ronk]

A trick serve with sudden twisting or flipping action will at best be somewhat unreliable and wild. The reason why good servers follow a consistent and smooth motion is to increase accuracy of the serve. A twisting trick serve might go into the net or be too high. Because it is not a high single's type serve but a low, flick, or drive serve, the serve needs to be very accurate. Serving 2 inches above the net means that a competent player can kill the shuttlecork easily. Even with my limited skill and snail-like speed, I can sometimes kill serves that are 2 to 3 inches high much less one that is widely inaccurate. At least with a high serve, the margin of error is greater and small inaccuracies are not as important.

I agree that it is much better to have a consistent and accurate serve than to try weird trick serves that do not win points. A related example of fancy a serve is the serve from corner to the backhand and this serve is problematic because a good overhead smash will usually kill such serves. Why bother, unless the opponent has no overhead smash. It is better to have accurate serves without deception than deceptive serves that are not too accurate. It is probably best to have an accurate serve that can deceptively change from a low serve to a flick serve without the opponent being able to read the serve.

Ron

[Framerate]

This makes me remember the spinning serve that was so difficult. I´m happy that´s not legal anymore.