Hi all,

As we all know, world number 1 singles player is Chen Hong of China, but does he really have the style, the greatness to actually BE world number one. No doubt, he is a strong chinese player, but it seems to me he was LOTS of weekpoints.

1. Being the power player he is, he hits ALOT out, into the net. Alot of points in the Roslim Hashim Semi were lost by Chen Hong simply cross-court smashing too much, making them go wide.
2. When he is defending, Chen seems to struggle, and cant really do anything with the shuttle. He has one cross court whip he does when played on the backhand, but thats about it.
3. He seems to REALLY struggle when closing off a game. This was clearly evident in the two Hashim matches when he let about 3/4 game points go due to unforced errors.
4. Sometimes, he does try to be a little too clever with deception, and alot of the time it backfires because it goes out, etc

So, i'm not really sure if he really is world number one status. With the malaysians coming up who show alot of speed in the mens singles game, i cant see Chen being number one for much longer, or even winning the world champs in May. What do others thing?

Matt

Matt,

interesting, from what i can tell, your analysis is based on just the AE Open.

it takes more than just one tournament to be world #1. it takes a lot of consistency to be world #1, and consistency for a duration of time. look at the Hashims, Hafiz may have beaten Chen in the AE, but he lost pretty early in the Japan Open, that one flash of brilliance won't bring him any world #1 status.

Chen has been finishing on top most of 2002 and despite many of us thinks that his style is not that fluid, etc, etc. he has been consistently gaining points.

that cannot be said about many other players.

Kwun,

I understand where you are coming from, and i have not seen that many tournaments with CH playing in them. But from what i can tell, with his performance at AE that he doesn't seem world number one material. With these loses to Lin Dan, and some early round loses (if i recall), he just doesn't seem good enough. Ok, he will be a challenge at the world champs, Hendrawan, with his sudden loss in form will lose his title, but Chen Hong will not win it.

Matt

Hi Matt,

Would you rate Robertson & Emms world #1 and World Champs material for May 2003?!?

Ken:confused:

Matt

Being world number 1 is a measure of consistency over a number of events in a year. Winnning the major events is more a measure of greatness than a high ranking, so don't be too bothered by the rankings. Chen has been there for some 5 months however so he surely deserves the ranking. Just this season he has gold at Denmark and Singapore, runner up at All ENgland, Indonesian and China Opens. He does however seem to struggle against the Malaysians, possibly because his size and power game are not suited to longer matches.

WHat amazes me more is that there are four danes in the top ten and thats without Gade!

I think that Chen Hong is a very good player and deserves his world number 1 spot. Firstly he has been at the top for awhile so he must be consistantly good. He is a power player and i agree that he tried the cross court smash too often at the All Englands but he definitely has more than one dimension to his game. I think that he was very deceptive and his deception shots worked most times from what i saw. He did struggle to finish the games off at the All England but he has won so many competitions he must be ok at this


btw i have only seen him play twice at the All Englands so this is from what i have seen

Hi,

Ken: Unfortunately, even though the are world number one, they will have a tough time winning the world champs due to Kim/Ra (who emms and robertson lost to in the Japan Open by quite a large gap), Gao and her partner being world and olympic champs, they are going to have a hard time. This IS badminton, so anything is possible and the best of luck to Robertson and Emms!

dlp: I know what you mean, Chen, like i said, IS a good player but to me, he can be very inconsistant at times. Deception works well, but makes alot of errors on it sometimes. I dont know what it is, he just doesn't seem world champ material when he plays. He is going to be a huge contender yes, but....i just dont know.
And i know what you mean about the Danes, their system is surely paying off with all these in the top 10, truely remarkable and GREAT to see that some of the Asian dominance of the sport is starting to break up. Lets hope Gade can get back up there with the help of Morten.

Matt

I have to say Chen Hong is fair closer to be world number 1 (standard wise) than Emms and Robertson. If you look at the top 5 men's singles players (in terms of ability, not rank), all are very close when you balance out their abilities, definately within 10% of each other, Chen Hong is No 1 due to consistency.

Emms and Robertson are world No 1 because the top pairs don't play much, simple as that :P Last check Emms/Robertson had played 10 comps, Kim/Ra 3 and Gao/Zhang 6. If you work out the average points earned per tournament it's not even close, which looking at their record, E/R have only had one good win over the top of world class mixed competition (Sing Open 2002), all the rest have been either Euro restricted or smaller tournaments. In big tournaments where the big guns play, they don't do nearly so well. I think the main factor is the lack of play of K/R who would be taking all the big points off most others.

http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7534&highlight=rankings

Pecheur, I started this thread some time ago about the inequities of the ranking system. Of course the reason it really matters is when top players go unseeded at big events and we have the stars going out first round before the televised stages.

Originally posted by dlp
http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7534&highlight=rankings

Pecheur, I started this thread some time ago about the inequities of the ranking system. Of course the reason it really matters is when top players go unseeded at big events and we have the stars going out first round before the televised stages.

I've also mentioned it in about 10 threads ;) However the current system was put into place to encourage the Asian pairs to play more (this is a paraphrase of what the Pommy coach said before AE). Of course this backfired as most of the Asian pairs don't really seem to care who was No 1 as long as they won the big tournaments ;P

Of course if they go out in the first round, should they really be the stars? They obviously aren't the best players ;)

So do we think the 4 danes deserve their high ranking or is it just a result of the system?

Of course if they go out in the first round, should they really be the stars? They obviously aren't the best players

I know you're joking Pecheur, but for instance if at the All England Robertson /Emms lose first round to Kim /Ra (unseeded) then a tremendous amount of publicity in all media and possibly final ticket sales would be lost.

Originally posted by dlp
So do we think the 4 danes deserve their high ranking or is it just a result of the system?

That's a much tougher call if you divide points by comps you get (I may get this slightly wrong I'm doing this by inspection)

Chen Hong ~370
Lee HI ~290
Taufik ~290
Xia ~270
Bao ~270
Ramussen ~260
WCH ~250
Jonassen ~240
Boessen ~210
Hafix Hashim ~210

Kaldau probably should be lower in the 20, but still there. However this does indicate that the Danes do indeed deserve to have 4 players in the top 20, though maybe not quite as high as they are.

Also CH is way, way out in front so probably does deserve to be No 1.

I agree CH is way out in front!

The Danes, I like your analysis of average points P, but also there is the nature of events played to gain the points. For instance Kaldau, although a rising star, gained his ranking through winning the Portugese, German opens and reaching the bmw final, beating european opposition. Surely the ranking system needs to reflect more playing both the top european and asian events to reach the top ten in the world.

Originally posted by dlp
I agree CH is way out in front!

The Danes, I like your analysis of average points P, but also there is the nature of events played to gain the points. For instance Kaldau, although a rising star, gained his ranking through winning the Portugese, German opens and reaching the bmw final, beating european opposition. Surely the ranking system needs to reflect more playing both the top european and asian events to reach the top ten in the world.

Et tu Emms/Robertson? ;P They got to No 1 predominantly by playing Euro opposition. Maybe a solution is to make the 3, 4 and 5 star tournaments worth 50-100% more points than they are now at all levels? Meaning that to make the QF of a 4 star tournament worth more points than winning a 1 or 2 star tournament?

Of course that'd mean the real top pairs would only bother playing in the 3 or 4 star tournaments, oh whoops ... ;)

Don't have time to work out how much that'd effect the current rankings ;P

I think all China players will admit they are not the best

interms of skill and talent, but the one thing about Chen Hong,

Xia, Gong. Zhou mi etc are that theyt are very consistent , generally make less

errors than others and do well in most tournaments,

In terms of talent, people like Gade , Martin, Taufik, etc are more talented,

but they are unable to maintain it. Taufik eg. needs to be allowed to play his game.

I think it's about the same as what companies define as quality= consistency,

not necessarily best defined in narrow terms, eg standard McDonalds burgers.

Chen Hong's performance in AE 2003 was crap.Wait till you see how Msian players

will fare in May, I think it will be dominated by the Danish and chinese think-tank.

hmm..

i don't think it will be dominated by danish..........


Korean, Chinese, Malaysian, Indonesian Are The Top Guns In Badminton...


and... denmark has never won the thomas cup before although the got into the semis many times......

Matt,

Chen Hong may not have a star-quality style that appeals to many, but as many have said, he is CONSISTENT. I love to see Peter Gade and Taufik Hidayat in action for they somehow exude that aura of "athleticism" and beauty in movement and furthermore they are young and handsome. But their form book has not been consistent. When you are world number one and have won not a few international competitions, you must be good for you must have met and beaten some of the world's best. Granted that the present IBF ranking system may not be perfect but it does serve as a benchmark. As has been said, with world-class players whose standard is not too far apart, it is the form that you display on court that matters most. A series of unforced errors can cost you the title and it's attendant rewards.

I would not discount the Danish players in the forthcoming World Championships. Denmark has consistenly provided the world with fantastic players and truly deserves the number one tag in Europe. Despite her relatively small size, she has a rich history in world badminton and as kwun has recently alerted us, some Danish players have been inducted into the IBF Hall of Fame. Neither can I downplay China, especially the younger men players like Lin Dan and Bao. Nor can I say the same for Malaysia which caught the world by surprise in the recent All-England.

So in the end, it is the consistency in delivery which counts ultimately. Stylish skills may faulter if one can't maintain a constant display of a vast array of strokes, superb fitness, superior tactics, tenacity and fluid mobility on the badminton court to outlast your opponent.

That may partly explain why some players do well in a series of

GP tournaments but not in team events.In GP events one has to beat a wide

array of players to reach final stages, but in team tournaments, one only has

to produce a flash of brilliance once.

I would rate Morten Frost as the most consistent player in the worild,

and together with Yang Yang and Sun Jun the most complete too , to handle

any situation. Are there any today like them? Maybe Denmark can see it too,

that's why Frost is brought in.

Why did Taufik skip the Korean Open?

Originally posted by Bbn
....... to handle any situation. Are there any today like them?

So far, only Taufik has all the skills and understanding of the game. Maybe his attitude is a bit more like Zhao JH with an eye for showmanship!!

Gade had also been consistent. remember that he sat on world #1 for most of 2001? only because of his knee injury that he got dropped down to being qualifiers for recent tournaments. and i think he is stilll in the stage of trying to regain his top forms. afterall, he only started competing last fall.

however, not to completely praise Gade, his problem has been unable to play at his top form during major tournaments, as a result, he has not done well in WC and in Olympics. he has limited successes in AE and also in SC.

so yes, Gade is a great player, but not the greatest.

back to the main topic on consistency. consistent players do get beaten by others. a recent example will be AE final that Matt had pointed out. once in a while, someone like Hafiz will spring up and shows some brilliance, same has happened with Roslin, and previous to that with Gopichand, and others i can think of is Kanako in the 1998 Asian Games beating Ye Zhaoying and GongZC to grab the title.

however, many of these are short lived, we don't see Gopi making any headlines, nor do we hear from Roslin.

Hafiz also, he hasn't done well at all in the JO and KO recently. but i think that's a bit early to tell.

Hi,

Just Chen seems Ok when he's on the attack but when he starts to defend, it seems to me that he can't do alot with the shuttle.

Matt

As a spectator at the sidelines or viewing the proceedings on TV, it may appear that Chen seems to look clumsy defending his position. But in the real court situation, when he is being attacked by someone of world-class standard like his younger teammate, Lin Dan, and especially if the opponent is deceptive, it will be a different and difficult proposition. Chen may not have many options to return the attacks and remember his opponent will pounce at every opportunity to follow through with another attack. Chances are Chen will try to keep the return as low as possible for anything higher will mean a kill from his opponent.

Maybe you should see whether Chen's defense is better against weaker opponents. He might not only get himself out of trouble but could also set himself up for a counter-attack. So much depends on the quality of the opposition.

The current ranking system doesn't really tell the true story about the strength of men's single. Top rank Chen Hong has been holding that position for a while but I do not see him as the best of the best. After watching the Sudirman 2003, I think any of the top 20 can beat one another at any given day which makes MS such a exciting event to watch. If I were to pick the top 5, my pick would be :
-Taufik Hidayat, Lee Hyun Il, Chen Hong, Xia Xuanze and Boa Chulai.
I am sure Malaysian fan would not be thrilled for excluding Choon Hann and Hafiz. In my opinion, Choon Hann lacks of explosiveness while Hafiz just not consistent. Danish players Jonassen and Boesen lack of quickness while Peter Gade is yet to proof to me he can play smart badminton.
So, who will be the king of 2003 in MS?



note: post merged by moderator

Even when watching Chen Hong on Tv it is noticeable

how he varies his shots and pace of his shots, more than anyone else.

Somehow compared with great players he may be a bit hesitant,

at times not bold enough and generally is not able to hit audacious angles that

great players have done.

Still he is one of the best around, maybe he can develop further as previous

world champions became champions aroung 24/25.

Thought i 'd revive this thread after reading Neal Nicholl's comments in Badders.

Do many people really believe that Chen Hong despite his progress is a match for

Gade in terms of skill and experience?

I'm sure his No.1 is justified badminton being what it is today,

but even if Chen Hong wins this tournamnt, I still say he is still not comparable to

Sun Jun, Zhao, Gade, Hoyer, Rudy etc at their best.

Following displays I think are difficult to emulate and come close to perfect

badminton :

1) Zhao beating Joko 1990 Ae

2) Sun Jun beating Ong Ewe Hock 1998 AE

3) Sun Jun beating Gade 1998 Gp final

4) Poul Erik beating Rashid Sidek 1996 Ae.

5) Zhao beating Frost/liem Swie King 1985

Chen Hong vs Peter Gade?

At the moment, one would have to go with Chen Hong. Neil's comment was pretty funny..:)

The perfect match? that could be another thread!;)

So what do we think now?