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2011 Hong Kong Open, what if .....

Discussion in 'Hong Kong Open / China Open 2011' started by AlanY, Nov 7, 2011.

  1. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    Ok, here is what I will do if I am the head coach of team China.

    The points after HK Open;

    [TABLE="class: grid"]
    [TR]
    [TD][TABLE="width: 481"]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]MAS[/TD]
    [TD]Lee Chong Wei[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]70617[/TD]
    [TD]8[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]2[/TD]
    [TD]CHN[/TD]
    [TD]Lin Dan[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]64776[/TD]
    [TD]9[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]3[/TD]
    [TD]CHN[/TD]
    [TD]Chen Jin[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]63000[/TD]
    [TD]10[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]4[/TD]
    [TD]CHN[/TD]
    [TD]Chen Long[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]61740[/TD]
    [TD]9[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]5[/TD]
    [TD]DEN[/TD]
    [TD]Peter Hoeg Gade[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]60953[/TD]
    [TD]9[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    We still have 3 SSP + SSF, 2 SS and 4 GP Gold left for the qualification. Let’s deal with PG first, the best results for him will be SF for all of the last 4 big point’s t’ments (3 SSP + SSF). More realistic is 3 SF + 1 QF. That will bring his total to 75413; any further SF places will be just discarded (*).

    Now, for the next 2 big ones, China Open and SSF let’s say LD and LCW both got 1 win and 1 runner’s up. For the China Open, both CL and CJ are in PG’s half the worst case scenario for CJ will be QF for him with PG in SF. For that, I will send LD and CL to the SSF and CJ to a GP gold t’ment to pick up the 7000 points. Most likely CJ will be going to Macau Gold in December. Again, let’s say both PG and CL will be in the last 4.
    The points tally will be;

    [TABLE="class: grid"]
    [TR]
    [TD][TABLE="width: 481"]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]1[/TD]
    [TD]MAS[/TD]
    [TD]Lee Chong Wei[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]90967[/TD]
    [TD]10[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]2[/TD]
    [TD]CHN[/TD]
    [TD]Lin Dan[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]80806[/TD]
    [TD]11[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]3[/TD]
    [TD]CHN[/TD]
    [TD]Chen Long[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]75940[/TD]
    [TD]11[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]4[/TD]
    [TD]DEN[/TD]
    [TD]Peter Hoeg Gade[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]72753[/TD]
    [TD]11[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD]5[/TD]
    [TD]CHN[/TD]
    [TD]Chen Jin[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]68430[/TD]
    [TD]12[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    This is important as by then both LD and CL’s points are well passed PG’s maximum possible thus they have the free hands to help CJ that I’m sure they will. Out of the last 4 big point’s t’ments in the New Year, all CJ needed are 2 QF (SSP & SS), 1 SF (SSP) and 1 SS winner plus the 3 GP golds as reserves, if needed.

    points with the above scenario;

    [TABLE="class: grid"]
    [TR]
    [TD] [TABLE="width: 320"]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD="width: 64, align: right"]3[/TD]
    [TD="width: 64"]CHN[/TD]
    [TD="width: 64"]Chen Jin[/TD]
    [TD="width: 64, align: right"]76900[/TD]
    [TD="width: 64, align: right"]16[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: grid"]
    [TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
    [TD]DEN[/TD]
    [TD]Peter Gade[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]75413[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    (*)- even with the unlikely event that PG pick up 9200 more points as a winner for the 2 remaining SS, CJ can still catch him up by getting the other 3 GP gold. Probably more chance for that than PG to win a title.
     
  2. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    Thanks 2beer.

    I really lost my interest in following this, why bother to follow the points calculation based on such bias rules. I hate BWF which is the biggest cheater, liar. They always lie who's the best badminton player in the world!

    I give up my attention on this stupid topic. Thank you for your enlightening. Even Alan granted all three players, CJ, LD and CL big points for SSF in his previous calculation. I thought he knows all. I am not blaming him, I blame the ridiculous BWF rules.
     
    #22 2cents, Nov 21, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2011
  3. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    shameless Taufik, Lee CW, Peter Gade and BWF

    Under the most unfair BWF rules, Chen Jin suffered a lot in ranking points: no team event points, no super series final points, risky opportunity to all quota by nation events.....

    That's the reason Chen Jin ranked lower than Peter Gade, not because Peter Gade is a better player than Chen Jin.

    Shameless Taufik, Lee CW, and Peter Gade were invited to play the so called heaven kings (rest in heaven?) event, and grab millions of dollars for losing. At the same time, Taufik, LCW and PG reached an agreement to block Chen Jin's rising in the ranking. What shameless players! Not dare to face to face fight!

    Here's the link

    http://sports.sinchew-i.com/node/20002?tid=3

    道菲:與李宗偉蓋特有協議 ‧3天王阻中國奧運男單滿額
    印尼前奧運會冠軍道菲雖然雄風不再,不過他仍誓言要聯手大馬的世界一哥李宗偉和丹麥名將彼德蓋特,以合力阻止中國欲取得倫敦奧運會羽球賽男單參賽席位滿額(3席)的野心。
     
  4. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    just noticed that Chen Jin is seeded No1 for the forthcoming Korean GP Gold.
    As the old saying goes: "Great minds think alike".
     
  5. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    .
    For any GP Gold tournament, surely players with top BWF Rankings will be seeded higher.

    It looks like CJ will win this forthcoming Korean GP Gold.
    .
     
  6. kelana

    kelana Regular Member

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    Sorry twobeer, i don't really get it! Did you mean that the coming Super Series FINALS will EXCLUDE both Lin Dan and Chen Long (and LCW as well) because they already collected sufficient points (for Oly qualification)???

    So this SS Finals tournament is NOT intended as the concluding clash among the best of the best (with limit of max 2 players from one country)??? So what's the real purpose of this tournament then???
    a jackpot of Oly points to those lucky weaker players??? :confused::D:p

    It's just a BIG JOKE if they exclude LD, CL and LCW from attending due to some ridiculous regulations!!
    Definitely such tournament can't claim any "best" attribute with it :D:p
     
  7. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    That's absolutely not the point - the point is that every country can only send 2 players, so LD and CL are the ones from China to go. Chen Jin and Du Pengyu can't go, even if they're in the top 8, because LD and CL are so much better in terms of ranking points. And as AlanY mentioned - China will definitely send them to keep them ahead of PG. After the SSF, they'll concentrate on slipping CJ past PG, and honestly - there's not much the others can do about that. Of course they can try to win, but other than LCW, they shouldn't stand much of a chance against him, especially not Taufik.
     
  8. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    A similar situation regarding the WS selection for the stupid SSF. After the China Open, Wang Shixian at No 3 is less than 4000 points above the 3 players below her. As only 2 players from each country to play I guess WSX will go with whoever lost in the China Open to the SSF. As both WX and WYH don’t really need the points and the ‘free points’ from the SSF could push WSX down to No 5 if she is not going.
     
  9. kelana

    kelana Regular Member

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    thanks j4ckie for the explanation!

    well, seeing here what a Simon can do over Peter, and before that Shon Wan Ho got pretty close with it, it may not be that easy for Peter to gain the SF position in coming SSF... over time the way ahead is just getting tougher for him.
     
  10. pjswift

    pjswift Regular Member

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    You know SSF used to offer only prize money and CHN showed contempt. So BWF decided to add huge ranking points and CHN got interested. Well, if CHN had gone along right from the beginning, SSF would not have offered ranking points. How would CHN know they would end up trapping themselves with their guile?
     
  11. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    The idea of the SSF is great but the execution is terrible. An end of year exhibition t’ment with huge money for the best players is great, unfortunately it offered neither. Not to mention that it used to be a t’ment that might or might not happen at somewhere nobody sure until a few weeks before. And it should not offer ranking points as it is invitation, a closed t’ment for a few only. Money wasn’t good enough so that people will drop everything and attend in a short notice thus CHN and KOR decided to skip it before. As for the best players, again to limit 2 per country defeat the idea of fair play. Imagine to any other sports, tennis for example, with a rule like this you probably spend more time on court (of law) than the court to play. Can you imagine the WTA tell the walliams sisters that they only allow 1 williams per t’ment!
     
  12. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    If they want to attract players with prizemoney, they should start realizing that 40.000 USD for the winner of the SSF is RIDICILOUS!!!

    40.000 USD for the winner of the tour is a mockery of our great sport imop! That's f-n less than what a Men-Singelsplayer loosing in the third round of Wimbledon gets :-( !!

    With Ranking points they kind of force players to participate, but when they at the same time limit the number of Chineese athletes they allow, they effectively will hand out ranklingpoints for free to players who are less skilled/ranked that would not be able to beat the excluded players Like Chen Jin (Or Chen Long if CJ would have been ranked higher).. Maybe China should ber happy that they allowed 2 players and not one ;-) If they only allowed one per country Lin Dan would have been excluded :D
     
    #32 twobeer, Nov 26, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  13. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I agree the prize money was very little.

    In the past, I think we have had cancellations of WGPF/SSF (in whatever form), because of lack of sponsorship....so my question is how to attract sponsors to the tournament?

    So, let's look at it from the sponsors point of view....

    If I was a sponsor, I would be very hesitant to put money into a tournament when

    a) top players do not turn up.

    b) if they do, players from the same country pussy foot around in matches

    c) when fewer countries participate, that limits my marketing exposure across different countries (from lack of interest amongst non-participating countries)


    So twobeer, if I am a sponsor, what other solutions are there to attract my dollars bearing in mind I want value for my sponsorship money and badminton doesn't have the same profile as motor racing, tennis.....
     
  14. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    To attract sponsors we need to be honest about what players and matchas that are the "moneymakers".. Just look at the "four kings" 4-players and still more sponsormoney than 3 std. SS put together!! For just four players !!

    The only solution short term I see is to break out mens singles to start with as a completetly separate event. The packaging needs to be change to attract sponsors. Also, when always negotiating a total sum of prizemoney to be split over five disciplines I think it will not be able to rise quickly enough for individual players that rank below the absolute top to be able to be make a decent living just from the prizemoney they earn! Maybe there could still be a number of "ranking" tournaments similar to todays set up and change the premier SS to mens singles primary. Sort of like ATP and WTP split.. I also think there needs to be more match-ticketing instead of "event/day" ticketing to be able to diversify prizing more and get more ticket income..

    And about the profile compared to motor racing, tennis, I really think its the chicken and egg thing.. would tennis be high profile if parents and fans didnt see how much money the winners where making? If a huge fanbase willing to spend money on the sport exists, then sponsors will be interested.. If sponsors interest are high and lost of money are at stakes.. More fans will be attracted and also more people want to become pros...

    Personally I hope Chineese and Asian businessmen will prefer to sponsor poplar games with Asian domince like badminton etc. instead of pouring their money on "american" sports.. I think Asia has a great future and i think sooner or later the western countries like US, have to take some of the culture AND SPORT from the east, not only the other way around !!
     
    #34 twobeer, Nov 26, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  15. huangkwokhau

    huangkwokhau Regular Member

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    The problpem is also..many CHN players got into TOP 8 in SS Final standing as some are given WO..so it is not fair for others who fight really hard....even we often see Koreans vs Koreans, Japan vs Japan or INA vs INA plays in real games...so to complain about the rule is okay but remember some of players are given free pass for free points....some fighyts for it....
     
  16. huangkwokhau

    huangkwokhau Regular Member

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    As far as I know as I often talk to players' parent...I believe and truly believe that BIG money will attract them...remember that many asian children may not go to school and really dedicate the sport for a way of earning a living..for Western is different...

    Thats why I am glad that China can offer big money to 4 Players which at that time.,.you objected it and it is actually it is a good marketing to attract more players..

    Please note that in last 2 years, one of China official told me that it is hard now to get the badminton talent in China...most children will play other sports...
    In the past, CBA will allow other chinese players who are not selected and go abroad..now there is no way....even for Singapore talents as well.....I heard China will not allow chinese children being recruited early by Singapore Sport Council.

    Also at the same time...we need to create fan base...fan base are important for sponsors...thats the keys...

    Also the reason why SS Final prize money is not much yet as BWF has hard time to find the sponsor..they are talking to few companies to sponsor SS Final regularly like 3 yrs contract for example...

    There will be more tournaments in Asia..Macau and Taipei Open are GOLD GP but the prize money is US$ 200 K ( similar to Super Series) and I think it is time for BWF to allow extra tournaments for countries who can afford...Beleive me that there will less tournaments in Europe in future..and more tournaments in South and North America but they need talents..recently PBSI allows some to move to these regions and I hope China/Mas or Korea will allow some of their players to this region...

    thats my 22 cents ( not 2 cents)
     
  17. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Personally i do not think that the WOs really affect the rankings much overall... For each player that "gets" a WO another chineese player in that match will have to loose the same ranking points that he may have gotten easy being drawn against a non-chineese player..So china can "distribute" some of the ranking points between the players by teamorder or "help", just like Taufik said he would try to help Gade. Buy if you take an objective look at the ranking it is pretty obvious that Chinese players are more likely to be ranked too low than too high, so I don't think anything really points to that a few WOs increases their overall ranking.
     
  18. huangkwokhau

    huangkwokhau Regular Member

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    Yes..it does..remember if you are ranked 9 in SS it equals to 32 in the draw....I do believe that it helps ranking and points especially for SS Final..look at how tight between the points....it does help..thats my opinion!!
    Anyway...in order to help badminton..the fans love seeing the fight..not WO....if you want to build the fans and sponsors so the sport can benefit!!
     
  19. pjswift

    pjswift Regular Member

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    It s plain cheating, both in terms of ranking points and $. If a CHN player defeats a non-CHN opponent with a walkover benefit, then he is stealing one round of ranking points and prize money. That could mean a few hundred ranking points and a few thousand $. It all adds up, tournament by tournament. If WYH could lose to a non-CHN WS without a walkover advantage, it means a walkover has been a contributing factor in her wins. But cheating will continue because it s a CBA norm.
     
  20. kelana

    kelana Regular Member

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    I will call such restrictions smart moves! The League, CBL, is running well, no players are wasted like in the past, they can always play there if not selected for the national squad. Same thing for the kid recruitment too! Otherwise it's something like "I'm planting, you're harvesting" :D

    I remember a Jesuit saying goes:
    “Give me a child until he is six, and I will give you a rock-solid follower for life.”

    What's the point for China to donate such talents?
     
    #40 kelana, Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011

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