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2014 The Star Australian Badminton Open Superseries

Discussion in 'Indonesia / Australia Open 2014' started by chris-ccc, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. skchen

    skchen Regular Member

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    Lin Dan was at his absolute best in the rubber where he blew away Simon Santoso in single digit score.
    LYD/YYS did a hat trick in consecutive weeks which is astonishing and obviously the World Championship gold awaits them in Copenhagen if they keep free of injuries.
    As expected Saina Nehwal clinched the title but it will not be long before C Marin wins a SS title.
     
  2. skchen

    skchen Regular Member

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    I agree Morten Frost is really good on the technical aspects of badminton and hopefully he continues as a co-commentator for a long long time.
     
  3. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    I'm afraid it still doesn't address the question - how immediate is immediate? Sometimes, the players are stunned by the linecall and needed much longer than a few seconds to decide. Or sometimes they are hesitant and needed some time to think as they have already lost one challenge.

    There's no hard and fast rule, solely the discretion of the umpire who being human can only be subjective. I feel the umpire should be more thoughtful and considerate to the players who are already stressed up. By all means be fair and just to maintain professional standards but surely we could use some human touch without breaking the rules. There is no need for court officials to behave like stern schoolmasters.

    The instant-review challenge system is to ensure the correct call is made, so it shouldn't matter whether players want to consult their coaches first before deciding to challenge or not; after all, coaches are part of the game and often shout instructions between points when the shuttle is not in play. Of course, ultimately it's the players who can issue the challenge.
     
  4. fauci

    fauci Regular Member

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    I'm really glad that there was finally an MS final where GC was basically silent. I would not miss her at all.

     
  5. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Personally, I make a distinction between faith in the ordinary sense of the word which is 'blind' as opposed to faith based on knowledge as in science where I believe something is true based on reason, evidence, verifiability, and that it works, and if someone can prove me wrong I'm ever willing and happy to discard my theory/belief like old newspaper and embrace yours.
     
  6. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    That is a joke Justin. I was forced to watch badminton through mainland chanels for about ten years and some times the special guests, like Zhao Jianhua, can be excellent and though he will talk three times more about the Chinese players, his point of view is objective and insightful. But he's not there often, and he's not hosting. I have watched matches where I had to wait for the mid-game interval for a single shot of the match being described - it was all chit-chat about the National Team. And you should hear where LYB is invited!!!
    Some players are very popular indeed, like PG, TH, and LCW. That is only natural, but it does not affect the commenting I am describing.
    The people you mention pcll99 are not commentators, they are guests.
    Justin, you are yourself commenting 90% of the time on the Chinese players, that is why when you find a similar behavior in the commentators you find it very nice.
     
  7. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    But in any cases, I find the attention given to the commentators way to heavy. They are not so important. What is so more important is the quality of the camera work, which is very poor compare to tennis, and the quality of web retransmission, which is also very poor. The bwf channel, for example, is almost amateur, though its existence is already a step in the good direction.
     
  8. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    The coach are part of the game? Sure, we should give them a racquet...
    The players are not "stunned" by the line call. They simply must be certain they want to challenge. No need to think about it.
    The schoolmaster that allows students to give a call to their parents during exam is indeed stern...and should be so
     
  9. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    "Only fools and dead men don't change their minds. Fools won't. Dead men can't." - John H. Patterson

    "They must often change, who would be constant in happiness or wisdom." - Confucius

    "It is change, continuing change, inevitable change, that is the dominant factor in society today
    No sensible decision can be made any longer without taking into account not only the world as it
    is, but the world as it will be." - Isaac Asimov

    "If you don't change your beliefs, your life will be like this forever.
    Is that good news?" - Robert Anthony, Author

    "It is change, continuing change, inevitable change, that is the dominant factor in society today
    No sensible decision can be made any longer without taking into account not only the world as it
    is, but the world as it will be." - Isaac Asimov
     
  10. Tybalt

    Tybalt Regular Member

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    She took too long to challenge; I'm not even open to a discussion on that point. I was there.

    A lot of chair judge behaviour is arbitrary to me, and while the rule about an immediate challenge perhaps leaves space for controversy, rules like this always do. It won't be any more difficult to differentiate than it would be if we allow challenges to be submitted until the other team has "prepared to serve". That invites strategic time wasting and a whole new discussion centred on figuring out what exactly is "preparing to serve", and that's not as simple a question as it seems, I guarantee it.

    The idea behind making it immediate is to avoid tactical or "why not?" challenges, which are a problem in other sports. The idea behind a challenge is for a player to be able to correct line judge errors they see as definitely wrong and alleviate terrible errors. Players being allowed to waltz around muttering "hoo boy, I dunno" and consulting with coaches to see if it was quite dodgy enough to warrant their attention misses the point. It's not a matter of satisfying curiosity and it's not supposed to be a cure, just a way to address the most egregious symptoms.

    Justin, quoting smart people is not a smackdown and it's not graceful. Don't champion your position when the debate isn't over and the matter isn't objective. You like quotes so perhaps you should read the one about playing chess with a pigeon.
     
    #530 Tybalt, Jun 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  11. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    yeah, i agree that challenge should be immediate. Looking to your own coach should not be allowed. Looking at the someone in the crowd should be absolutely forbidden.

    But looking at or consulting with your own partner should be allowed. As long as the partner and/or the challenger's decisions are entirely their own, not someone else's outside the court. But practically speaking, I have to admit that it would be hard for the umpire to watch the shuttle, the line judge, the challenger and the challenger's partners (perhaps the coach) within the time limit of "immediately".
     
    #531 pcll99, Jun 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  12. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    renbo, I mean coaches are part of the game of badminton, not the match directly but to provide coaching advice/instructions during a match on courtside. So why can't they tell their players whether to challenge the linecalls or not? When even linejudges cannot be sure, how can coaches sitting near or a little away from the linejudges be ? I don't understand what you mean by schoolmasters allowing students to call their parents during exams and what it has to do with umpires giving the players some time to think about challenging linecalls.

    As for CCTV sports commentators, whether they commentate as guests, do part-time or as regulars, they are all commentators. For BWF, it's usually GC as regular, MF, Richard Kaufman, Steen Pedersen,etc as part-timers, others as guests such as at the INA Open, HKV and Viktor Axelsen sit in.

    I guess the one you mentioned who talk a lot, chit-chatting away , must be Hong Gang, a regular who is technically not proficient in badminton but very good at storytelling, still he is not bias as I've often heard him singing the praises of non-CHN players. Also I hope you're not referring to those Cantonese-speaking ones from Guangdong province which I think you can access from Hong Kong; they are not commentating in Mandarin for a nation-wide or international audience.

    Anyway, suit yourself. It's just an exchange of opinions, nothing personal. If you didn't addressed my posts directly, I wouldn't think of responding.
     
  13. boon_keng

    boon_keng Regular Member

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    Absolutely I agree with you, brother! LD's footwork is so smooth, it's an art....
     
  14. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    1) The fact that there is linecall challenges where each player/pair is allowed two per match already means there will be time wasted when used while waiting for Hawk-Eye to do the job, so a few seconds for a player to consider is natural and normal when you only have two challenges;

    2) I was talking in general , not relating to any specific case;

    3) It's easier to decide when the shuttle is on your side of the court than when it landed on the opposite, far side, worse when your opponent happened to block your view; therefore you are less sure and likely to take longer time to decide;

    4) I don't see anything wrong for players to look towards their coaches (not walking over to discuss) for an indication whether to challenge or not since coaches are allowed to shout instructions/advice when the shuttle is not in play (unlike table tennis where coaches can only talk to their players during game intervals);

    5) GC's proposal to increase the number of challenges to two per set per player, i.e. total 4 per set (not match), and an extra challenge during deuce (this one I'm not too sure , still thinking about it) - is actually a good idea; naturally the question or worry arises about time-wasting but something has got to give if we want to minimise linejudges's errors or subjectivity;

    6) Tybalt, the idea behind linecall challenges are not just to correct outrageous errors, often they are used to challenge close calls as happening in practice.

    Lastly, Tybalt, my quotations are standalone in a post by itself, not addressed to anybody/topic/discussion/argument as they concern change in general.
     
  15. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Rather concerned about the proposal of 4 challenges per set. That's quite a lot! Limiting the number of challenges gives quite interesting tactics in terms of timing of the challenge. There is no immediate urgency in increasing the number of challenges. At the moment, increasing it from 2 to 3 or 4 challenges per player or pair over the whole match seems fairly reasonable (that would give a maximum of eight challenges over the whole match). I wouldn't like to see potentially 8 challenges during the tie break trying to disturb the rhythm of the whole match.

    A challenge would have to be made fairly immediately say (within 5 seconds) but I can't see how a player cannot be prevented from looking at anybody else before making a challenge. If they do, I don't see anything wrong with it and it is part of the decision making process - you take your chances on making a challenge.
     
  16. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Other points to consider:

    a) what if the linejudge is unsighted and the umpire himself is not sure as he is sitting too far to see clearly where the shuttle landed on the far side corner? Either he makes an arbitrary call (bad idea) or refer to Hawk-Eye for decision. If the former, then either player may disagree and would consider whether to challenge or not, that itself would already take some time;

    b) the linejudge makes a call but the umpire over-rules it, the player who at first thought the point was his/hers before the umpire takes it away will naturally react with surprise, then feeling hard done by would have to decide whether to challenge, this again will some time, not immediately.

    The point I'm driving at is we shouldn't be unduly concerned about time-wasting than getting it right so that no player will feel robbed or cheated of a point. Fairness and quality of the match are more important , we don't want the match marred by controversial linecalls. A bit of time-wasting, intentional or not, is a small price to pay for justice and integrity of the sport.

    Court officials - umpires, service and line judges - should observe a code of ethics, and violators ought to be duly dealt with. Those who uphold the highest standards should be duly rewarded.

    It is sad enough that we rather trust human technology than humans themselves.
     
  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    If the umpire makes a call or overrules, the player is entitled to a challenge. I see no issue there. If it is fair, the hawkeye will be in favour of the player and the number of challenges still remain. Players can decide pretty quickly whether they think a shuttle is in or out.
     
  18. Tybalt

    Tybalt Regular Member

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    And what of the times when the coach decides not to review it? Then you've wasted more time. You can do this as often as you like under your suggestion. Those seconds amass and you know how strict chair umpires get.

    This is where line judge trust comes into play. It will still be immediate if you're pretty sure it was an error. You challenge automatically when you need to.

    That's relatively understandable, but if it's just a glance then it still is likely to be "immediate" and you wouldn't have a problem.

    Not really, though. I mean, every decision you challenge is one you think is close, but what you're describing is too general. This is not the purpose in any sport because it can't be. It takes too long to be used flippantly and if that were the purpose they'd have more than two. Since when is this sport that lenient to players? You're not allowed to towel-off one arbitrary half of the time, but you're given three tablespoons of patience to question line judges? Hawkeye isn't a perfect system, either, meaning it can be millimetrically imperfect, so it's only consistently useful for horror calls. The sport trusts line judges first but lets Hawkeye overrule them when a player challenges out of automation because the call was obvious to them. That's what it stands for, not for chin-scratchers.

    Consider a technology that took three seconds from start to finish to produce a decision. Now consider how many times a player umms and ahhs about a line call every match. How many of those umms and ahhs do we allow to turn into challenges? Eight? Ten? The point is to ask how often we think line judges really get things wrong and how often it's just a case of a competitor's nature. Hawkeye is only good at the moment for correcting small and obvious mistakes.
     
  19. Maklike Tier

    Maklike Tier Regular Member

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    Geez, just do what they do in tennis. Issue resolved. It's ridiculous - badminton is making out that it's invented some new thing and that they're breaking new ground. It's embarrassing.

    There should be no coaching between points. Heck I'm not sure I even like coaching at intervals. Players should play the games for themselves, no turn to their coaches after every point asking what they should do. Just like Tennis.
     
  20. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php/144057-Should-coaching-be-allowed-between-points

    Poll created.
     

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