Thanks for visiting us!

Badminton Central is a free community for fans of badminton! If you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community users, it takes less than 15 seconds! Everybody is welcome here.

Click here for a FREE account!

2016 Rio Olympic Games : Day-9 (19th August) - WS & MD Gold Medal, WS Bronze Medal, MS Semifinals

Discussion in 'Olympics 2016 - RIO' started by CLELY, Aug 18, 2016.

  1. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    283
    Location:
    Denmark
    Let me tell you about a practice setup the Danish MS players used in the buildup to the Olympic Games. Seeded 4 and 5, they knew that they had to beat the top 3, and I think focus had primarily been on LD and LCW, but I know CL was also included.

    During tough practice sessions, they had recordings of these players on computers connected to screens and devices standing court side. VA and JOJ would play each other, to apply pressure and physical strain. Then after a number of rallies, they would pause, quickly go court side, and "quiz" with the recordings of LD, LCW or CL. They would be showed a number of 1 second clips of these opponents pulling up for a shot, then freeze at impact, and then they should chose what shot they thought they were playing (anticipation). Quickly. They would take a quick series of shots like this, get their answers scored, then go on to play their singles to get the heart rate up. Repeat this pattern, for increasingly longer quiz sections.

    They would "battle" each other, not just on court, but also on the computer, who was the best at anticipating their opponents.

    Now, these guys are competitive, so they would really go at it.

    Such tools, focus and analysis were used in order to prepare them for the OG. I guess that its the Badminton Denmark video analyst who has worked in scanning in all the clips (he's travelling with them to the big tournaments, by the way).

    I have no clue if this or similar systems are used by Asian federations, but I guess it will come. If that had anything to do with VA's impressive victory over LD I can't tell, but surely, it shouldn't be written off to just physical fatigue or LD not trying - there's enough evidence pointing against this.

    As for JOJ, unfortunately he played a really bad match vs. Srikanth - even though Srikanth played the best for a long time, and was one of the surprises of the tournament (in MS), JOJ managed to get 19 and 19 with his B-game. Now none of you see him as a top player anymore (you're really quick to dismiss players based purely on results btw). But had he progressed in that match, just found a bit more of his game, I'm fairly sure you would have seen a very well prepared JOJ for the LD matchup. They were targeting the big players and the top spots for sure. Srikanth wasn't part of the target training.

    I would not write him off now. And I would not even say for sure that he'll be the 2nd best MS of Denmark going forward. I could see him bounce back and take a big title. I think Denmark will have two top-6 players in the world for quite some time to come, and I won't rule out that we'd end up with two top-3 players at one point.
     
    #2041 FeatherBlaster, Aug 24, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
    samkool, nizze, nokh88 and 3 others like this.
  2. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    283
    Location:
    Denmark
    Yeah, it's been a dry run since Camilla Martin and Tine Baun.

    But Kjaersfeldt is actually showing quite some progress over the last year or two, and she's not that old. I never see her as world top-3, but I wouldn't rule out top-10 for her if she can continue to improve.

    There's a lot of talented juniors and so on, but I can't tell why we don't make it in WS. It could be coincidence (out of a 5 million population there will be a lot of variance and luck involved, when you're up against China and India), but it could also be a matter of culture. Female players peak younger physical than males. And in Denmark the tradition is NOT to bet on kids becoming sport stars. Especially not at young age, nor in diciplines that don't carry a huge payoff. The "China model" is stronger here (where culturally, they simply don't care for a lot of the other aspects that limit young Danish girls). I think that's the difference between men and women looking at the Danish system and comparing to other countries.

    Now, I also think this is slowly changing, so I think we'll improve. Caroline Wozniacky being pushed like hell from age 12, making the #1 spot in tennis has paved the way for over ambitious parents, and it's now more accepted to really go for the chance... Also the Danish badminton federation are looking more seriously at making training for kids fit their age, physical and mental abilities, which I think will help the girls (so boys and girls don't necessarily will follow same pattern, which clearly they shouldn't). These age-related training concepts will help the Danish girl talents of the future.

    I think Denmark and China are so far from each other, in terms of how things are done, how the culture is around elite sports, etc. I think it's so different that we cannot comprehend each others challenges... Looking at the comments about LYB, how he evolved, and what he's missing now, written by Chinese players and fans, really tells me that there's still a million miles between our setups. I'm also fairly sure, that blindly applying one approach in another country would lead to failure - though I'm not saying we can't learn from each other, we surely can!
     
    nokh88 and Cheung like this.
  3. ssj100

    ssj100 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    3,961
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Sietch Tabr
    There's no doubt Marin has worked extremely hard to get to where she is now. But don't tell me WYH, WSX, LXR, and others (including Kjaersfeldt) haven't worked just as hard, if not harder, in their own way. I don't think Camilla Martin and especially Tine Baun (who hasn't even won a single major...or even made a major final?) can be compared with Marin.
     
  4. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    283
    Location:
    Denmark

    Well I don't think I said that the other players don't practice hard. I just tried to give a picture of Carolina Marin as a hard worker and hard fighter - not someone who is so gifted that it all comes to her naturally. Nor that the fact she is from Spain changes anything in regards to the setup around her.

    And I don't think I compared the Danish WS to Marin - I just said that we really haven't produced top class WS players for the last many years, except for these two.

    They were quite good though, Martin winning WC, OG silver, AE and other things - but most importantly from a Danish perspective, she was all dominant at home, winning 13 Danish championships in a row! And 6 Danish Open titles. Tine was totally in the shadows from Camilla, and not even when Camilla stopped playing, Tine had her break through. It came at a very late age for Tine, in particular when you look at other WS players. She was a late bloomer, who won her first big tournament (Japan Open) at 28 years old. Then she started winning: 3 All Englands, 2 Malaysia Open, and Singapore, Korea and Denmark Open as well. She didn't win a WC (best effort was bronze), but she did become world #1 at 30 years old I think. Because she peaked so late, she didn't last that many years, and of course she never left a huge impression as one of the all time greats for that reason.

    This goes very well in hand with my observation about why I think we're not good at creating WS players in Denmark. They simply don't start young enough with serious world class training compared to other countries, and for women that's a bigger problem than it is for men.
     
  5. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    2,837
    Likes Received:
    272
    Location:
    HK
    Thank you for those very interesting informations, FeatherBlaster.

    But if WS is somehow lacking now in DEN, WD is doing quite well. So ladies can perform, it is just in singles that things are lacklustre a bit.
     
  6. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2012
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    39
    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    Asia
    why WYH and WSX ?

    WYH nearly retire, now is 28, almost 29.
    and if she win the OLY 2012, I'm very sure she is retire in 2013 or 2014.

    WSX ? her lack in smash aspect really is a big trouble for her.

    WYH at her golden age perform better than Marin.


    Marin only world #1 in Jun / Jul 2015.


    before that, using WR 28/5/2015 :

    #2 LXR : 80177 pts (9 /9 events)
    #3 CM : 79353 pts (10/14 events)

    and LXR not fully recover from injury since Oct 2014, but she still ranked higher than Marin by the end of May 2015 hehehe


    comparing WS with MS ?
    I think is ok as long as the condition is about thr same.

    but no player like Lin Dan in WS.

    so how to compare ?


    from WS GOAT to one of the all time great.
    nice hehehe

    do you think it is easy to become one of the all time great or even the GOAT ?


    just only perform good in 2 - 3 major events but mediocre in 20 or 30 events from 2014 to 2016, and you become one of the great ?

    neg H2H with 18 / 19 WS, and you become one of the great just bcoz she has 3 major ?

    not only 2 - 3 WS, or 8 - 9 WS, but neg H2H with 18 - 19 WS. wow :p
     
    #2046 Fortune, Aug 24, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  7. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    2,837
    Likes Received:
    272
    Location:
    HK
    Fortune, I wish you would make complete sentences, reading you would be more pleasant
     
  8. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2012
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    39
    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    Asia
    WYH already 27 / 28, surely not as firece as 22 or 23 yrs WS.

    WSX, no need to discuss, lack of smash, diff to win title.

    WYH best in 2011 until 2012.

    wait until Marin is 28 / 29 y.o., let see how many she can win, if even when she was 21 and 23, just 1 - 2 titles for a year hehehe


    LXR is injury after French open 2014.

    before that, LXR is in the final of every SSP, WC and Asian Games, include some titles that she won.

    now looking at Marin.
    she only can win 8 / 9 titles from 2014 to 2016, almost 3 years.


    LXR won 8 - 9 titles in one calendar year only (2012) :p


    the era is really competitive, or just marin who is mediocre that make her won less title despite she is in her golden age ?

    let see this :
    Marin > Wang Linling > Zhang Beiwen, but Zhang BW > Marin.

    Marin vs WLL : 1 - 0
    WLL vs Zhang BW : 1 - 0
    Zhang BW vs Marin : 2 - 1

    from Marin point of view (POV), this competition is really competitive, bcoz no clear winner, but for other WS like RI, WYH, LXR and others, this is easy.

    btw, do you familiar with Wang Linling ?

    how do you know that WLL and ZBW is a good player ?


    you can't say this era is the strongest, even stronger than LLW era, just because marin lose here and there, bcoz it is clear, LLW, HAP, ZN, Susi, Ye and others > Marin hehehe
     
    #2048 Fortune, Aug 24, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  9. Baddyforall

    Baddyforall Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    3,196
    Likes Received:
    538
    Location:
    On the Wheel
    I beg to differ. I accept JOJ prepared well for Olympics. But doesn't mean he used only his B game.
    In one of the interviews, Srikanth said that last time he played JOJ was dated back to 2014. He analysed Dane's game with his coaches and came up with some strategies to play the Dane. He was very happy that Dane fell for it and his strategies worked really well. I have seen Dane using wrong strategy against Srikanth. You can't feed Srikanth to attack. Against Lindan, Srikanth would have won it, if he kept his game going without making mistakes. But it's unfortunate. He could not pull it off. Experience matters the most.
    But in india, they concentrated more on physical fitness.
    In one of the interview, sindhu's father said they were training her physical fitness which was issue for her (for Srikanth as well). But for training, they even used Gopichand's 11year old son as a sparing partner in order to practice her net dribbles @ 4 .30 am daily. Everybody worked .
     
  10. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    2,837
    Likes Received:
    272
    Location:
    HK
    Srikanth is one of the hope we have for an interesting post-LD post-LCW era
     
  11. ssj100

    ssj100 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    3,961
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Sietch Tabr
    Wouldn't make a difference! He keeps missing the point and misinterpreting statements hehe.
     
  12. Baddyforall

    Baddyforall Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    3,196
    Likes Received:
    538
    Location:
    On the Wheel
    It would be inif you p
    You are unbelievable. Your way of analysing things does not work . For me, I don't like Marin at all. But for your analysis, either you take only Chinese players history or you completely shutting off to even consider other country players' achievements.
    You took Li xuerui's injury dated back to 2014 but you didn't even ready to consider Marin' s injury dated back to 2015 prior to World championships.
    You said Li xuerui won 8 titles in one year in 2012. But you did not mention how many titles she won so far. She is 25 now.
    Marin is 23 now.

    I wonder how come I came here to defend Marin. Your way of interpretation is really childish. Otherwise I would not be here to defend Marin ( Unless she corrects herself , she will pull hatred towards her from the fans of her opponents)
     
  13. ssj100

    ssj100 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    3,961
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Sietch Tabr
    Fair enough, good points, never disagreed with most of them - just making some perspective statements of my own.

    I'm interested in your comment: "Nor that the fact she is from Spain changes anything in regards to the setup around her". Do you know who she actually practises with? That is, sparring partner(s) to play actual sets to 21 points. I'm genuinely asking this. I suspect the answer is with a MS player, but I'd be curious to know the actual truth if you know? If so, and this contentious, but I believe China WS players would have a much better setup than her in this regard. On average or in general, having a culture of strong badminton players also breeds greater success. Again, not something that can be mathematically proven, but something that common sense reveals. If it was as simple as just having a good "setup" for success, then China would have won the Soccer/Cricket/Rugby World Cup by now hehe - they just need to get a "world renowned" coach, setup the right work ethic, and analyse strong players every night etc right? I'm not sure about that.
     
  14. ssj100

    ssj100 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    3,961
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Sietch Tabr
    He's just writing (bad) jokes. No need to take it seriously hehe.
     
  15. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2015
    Messages:
    8,362
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Location:
    New Delhi

    But mind-bogglingly arrogant Lin Dan wasn't in the mood to give Axelsen any credit whatsoever.

    “I was pretty drained from yesterday’s match,” Lin told reporters, referring to his semi-final defeat to arch-nemesis Lee Chong Wei of Malaysia on Friday.

    “However in the third game of today’s match I think my opponent got lucky because there were several shots at the net that I didn’t perform very well,” he added.

    [​IMG]

    ( Hope the pic is arrogant enough )
     
  16. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    40,021
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Location:
    Citizen of The World
    It's not out of arrogance, it's just Lin Dan being himself, saying it like it is, calling a spade a spade. He's a maverick who's not afraid to speak his mind. I suggest you watched that match carefully to see if what he said is justifiable. Besides, we all know what Lin Dan is capable of, and at this Olympics he was far from his best, particularly obvious in terms of fitness and stamina.

    Anyway, Lin Dan has only himself to blame, he should take a leaf from his perpetual archrival, LCW, who is about as old as he is on training really hard and keeping his fitness level up to it. I still think Lin Dan's motivation at Rio'16 isn't as high as he was at LOG'12 which in turn wasn't as high as it was at Beijing'08. Even so, his semifinal clash with LCW was as close as it can get, a match that could've have gone either way in the decider at deuce.

    Interestingly, Lin Dan won all his first set against his QF, SF and bronze playoff opponents in impressive style despite not playing aggressively but mostly using a rallying,stroke kind of game. I even think if any much younger and fitter player in his twenties can play like that, he would be a top two or three player anytime but having the same knowledge, experience and talent as Lin Dan is an entirely different matter, pretty hard to do, I must say.
     
  17. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    40,021
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Location:
    Citizen of The World
    I mean Cai Yun could've left that bit out if he didn't feel compelled to mention it, even giving excuse for Marin and the reporter would've considered excising that remark out of Cai Yun's conversation if only just to play safe.

    If you can think twice before saying such a thing, I'm sure Cai Yun and the reporter,even more so, will as well.

    Anyway, I'm just the messenger and thought for quite a while before reporting it here as it is without making any of it up.
     
  18. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    283
    Location:
    Denmark
    "He got lucky"...

    I suppose that is the first step towards not improving your game (tactically, technically, fitnesswise, whatever).

    I think Justin is right here, saying that LD perhaps could learn a bit from LCW in this area. :)

    I mean, the more you practice, the luckier you get.
     
  19. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    2,837
    Likes Received:
    272
    Location:
    HK
    I have been watching the replay of the CM-LXR's match, and I think it was far from finished when LXR hurt herself.
    In the first game, LXR's game plan was awful, playing a lot of slow sliced drops Marin was happy to pounce on, never putting Marin under pressure. But on the second game LXR started to play fast clears and Marin was not so comfortable. At 6-8 there was a long exchange (33 shots) and Marin asked immediately for a break. That is the way. She is fast, specially going forward, but less so going to the back if the clears are high enough so that she cannot block them or smash them. Some lengthy rallies can take the sting out of Marin I believe. An in-form Okuhara could make some damage here.
    Anyway, nice game from LXR, there was still hope when she did torn her knee. I hope she'll come back for her revenge!
     
  20. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2012
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    39
    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    Asia
    and you only take ROW players history to be considered as the WS GOAT, but completely missing CHN WS history as the real WS GOAT


    I'm sorry, you want to compare LXR injury with Marin ?

    LXR injury after Denmark / French open, forced her to absent in China SSP (home event), HK SS and also Dubai SSF, where she is eyeing third straight titles, a new record I guess.
    even until Feb / March, she is not fully fit.
    and that makes her only has 9 events point in the WR at the end of May 2015.


    Marin injury ?
    where and when she was absent in many tournaments ?
    can you named me the tournaments ?

    All England 2015 ?
    India SS 2015 ?
    Indonesia SSP 15 ?
    or what else ?


    the fact is, not fully fit LXR ranked higher than Marin even only playing 9 events.
    while Marin, even with 10 best result out of 14, only as #3


    if you count Irish Int'l, Uganda Int'l :p and some other Int'l series or Future Series title, Marin already win some 25 or 30 titles I guess :p

    LXR never play in such low level I guess.

    but if we count GP level and above, I think LXR still ahead by 8 - 9 titles.


    and what about you ?
    not childish ?
    you can counter my post with fact, and that is enough.

    the problem is, the fact show us that
    beside 3 majors (only if WC still in odd year only), Marin only win 8 titles in 3 years, also neg H2H with 19 WS, and also only 1 or even no world records...

    very far from WS GOAT status
     
    #2060 Fortune, Aug 27, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016

Share This Page